A series of bomb blasts in Varanasi. Hindu temples, railstations—the standard targets straight from the Jihadi desktop manual. Nothing new….well hold on there is.
Me. I am new this time.
While previously, I used to call Jihadis as “low lifes” and “scum” and wished that they be subject to “Ashfaq”ing without any lube, I have since changed my stance based on comments on previous posts convincing me of the errors in my perception.
Terrorists are people too. Just like child molesters, the Nazis and Sanjay Kapoor. Many of them were not hugged when they were kids, some had delinquent mothers who would cook them broth in pressure cookers (which is why they use them now for bombing purposes), some grew up watching Ravi Shastri bat while others were fed a staple diet of Manoj Kumar–resulting in a pathological hatred of India and a tendency to say “Aajka din bara mahan hain” at the drop of a bomb.
What is mentioned above applies to two kind of terrorists sorry misunderstood people: the ones who come from our friendly neighbour Pakistan ( whose brotherly mindset is demonstrated by them naming their missiles after invaders who raped and destroyed the Indian heartland) and the home-grown ones—the ones who do not swear allegiance to the Indian flag but to a brotherhood of Islam—where non-believers are either to be converted or killed.
Of course, the ones who come from Pakistan don’t exist actually—they are all an Indian government fabrication. As for the second group—the radical Islamists have every right to not accept the “idea of India” despite the fact that they take full advantages of “Indian” citizenship. Oops I forgot…there are no such advantages.
I have also come to realize that when I call for exemplary punishment for terrorists and for the non-scrapping of laws like POTA, I am sending chills down the spines of our minority brothers. Of course, the connection between terrorists and minority brothers was an association that my bleeding-heart commenters made—not me.
I used to like to look upon the Indian Islamic population as consisting of mostly peace-loving, patriotic people with a very small minority of Pakistan-loving traitors mingling among them, those who foment trouble in India and give the entire religion a bad name.
I wanted to send chills down the spines of the latter and not of the former.
However, I have ceased to make such fine distinctions –distinctions which I have realized stem from my “immaturity”. For which I have been adviced repeteadly to stick to writing about Mithun-da and Bhappi-da and not write on politics—which is exclusively the prerogative of advanced, exalted beings.
But you see, I want to be a big boy now. For which I am going to hold “mature” opinions—-i.e. I am going to stick my ass up and say “Come on do your best. I have sinned.” What the sin is I have no idea—I guess I will find out in heaven. Or hell.
Yes I have learnt the mature language. Terrorists have human rights. Victims dont. Victims deserve to get their brains blown over everywhere. Terrorists dont—they deserve biriyani. While it is considered “mature” to wish the death penalty for “rapists”, (because “mature” people never want to say anything that may offend women—oh no how else would they get laid—after all “sensitive men” are always at an advantage in this regard) it is not so for terrorists.
It is pefectly fine to stay in India and plot for its dissolution—India is not a country anyways but instead a collection of warring communities. Yes thus spake my new idol, a Sri Lankan journalist in the comments section of this amazing article he wrote which talks about how the Indian army terrorizes Kashmir.
In case you dont want to wade through his article the point this genius makes is that the Indian army is an occupying force in Kashmir.
And why so?
Because while he was in a phone booth in Kashmir, an armyman asked him to finish his phone call and started threatening the boothwallah to get the customer out (yes I know, such things happen nowhere else in India) and because the Armymen were urinating in a rice field—-(here too, we see a phenomenon not seen anywhere in India but only in the occupied lands of Kashmir). And so after witnessing these two incidents of atrocious atrocity with his unjaundiced eyes, brainiac has come to the conclusion that the Indian army is an occupying force in Kashmir.
Which it no doubt is.
In passing, I also accept that it is perfectly fine to shoot a professor at IISC—-after all that’s more merciful than being refused tenure.
So to prove the bonafides of my new-found “maturity”, I strongly condemn the shooting down of LET cadres by the police.
And as for the dead in Varanasi, I have a message.
Tough luck. This is what you get for being an Indian—-its your vote that supports the government whose instrument —the Army tortures, rapes and pillages everwhere. Hence you should die…and that too in the most horrible ways. More people are concerned about stupid Danish cartoons than the trajectory your interstine took as it imploded under the impact of sharpnel. You are to blame for your own death just like Kashmiri Pandits are to blame for living as refugees in their own homeland. If one of the concomitants of “maturity” is not to care for Pandits, why should we give a rat’s ass for you?
And come on, you get 1.5 lacs each….be happy with that. And tell your next of kin to go after the Danish cartoonist (51 crores reward) or MF Hussain’s hand (11 lacs) to offset some of their financial losses.
You have to understand, we are more concerned with rehabiliating terrorists—giving them the healing touch and doling out money to them so that they can abandon the path of the gun (240 crores to be precise in 2004).We are busy stifling the powers of the law-enforcement agencies as an election gimmick. While mature people cheer from the sidelines since they have caught onto the fact that the way to stop terrorism is not stronger disincentives and greater surveillance but bear hugs and a ten ruppee bill discreetly slipped into the breast-pocket.
Of course not everything has changed. There are some things I said then that I can still do with fearing for reduced blood flow to my balls. For example, the fact that it is communally criminal to take out a Rath Yatra now—the motives of Advani are crystal clear in this regard…to purge himself of the Jinnah comments by creating some more unrest. After all just like coaches tell out-of-form batsmen to watch videos of their best games, somebody has told Advaniji to watch footage of his old in-form self—when his balding gleaming pate reflected the hate of a thousand Saffronites. And he has taken that to heart.
This I can safely say.
But asking for stricter punishments for insufferable scum like Ashfaq Mian —I cannot say that . Ergo I won’t.
And so, after reading all this, my dear readers, do tell me—-am I sufficiently mature enough to write on politics? Have I proven my “secular” credentials?
I promise to carry a Jhola to work, not shave my beard, not take baths for days and shout at the top of my voice that Godhra was an accident.
Pretty, pretty please?
The Greatbong Blog & Podcast 
ROFL….You have proved yourself to be secular enough to talk about politics. I look forward for more of these political posts.
i was a student in baku(1985-1991) and witnessed the dissolution of the ussr and the pogroms and the reprisals. always frightening to be a minority.
every stupid action in india can be traced back to two motivations– vote bank politics and the national target of lining ones pockets.
even my ten year daughter wonders how many victims’ families do see those much-hyped 5 lac compensation ‘cos the only breadwinner was blown to smithereens when he was selling phuchka by the roadside?
no political party has the dum to implement one common code of law, instead of pandering to every denomination.
thinking back, i am becoming more and more like mrs rupa mehra, who thought that ‘they’ were horrible people but she knew and liked individual muslim friends.
YOURFAN writes:
This post is fantastic – tears just rolled down from my eyes. The families of all the victims will mourn for them as long as they live because the death of those people were a cruelty perpetrated by evil men – not nature, not disease, not genuine accidents.
I have a feeling that those commentators who have been able to “change your opinion thru their comments†are not going to reply to this post.
I believe that we are too soft on the minority lest they feel they are being discriminated against. Well, they are being discriminated all right – but in their favor. Why on earth, the MP(who belongs to the minority) who announced a huge sum of money for the head of the Danish person responsible for the cartoon about the prophet, is not being arrested for inciting violence and hatred? Why can’t he be made to step down since he is abusing the power that he enjoys for being a MP?
What happened to the term ‘fairness’ – this double standard is not fairness? So this is what we pay for being politically correct – right? In other words, we have to watch innocent people getting killed and not say anything – but who knows next time I won’t be just “watching†– it may very well be me! I guess, then, I will have to protest about it from my ashes.
Admirable sentiments, GreatBong and Yourfan – its always easy to take pot-shots at the Mullahs and the politically correct crowd ( and Allah knows they deserve it). But the real question is what we can do to prevent such incidents and I strongly doubt that the answer is as simple as you seem to imply it is.
Yourfan complains that India is ‘too soft’. Maybe we are. But would you argue that Pakistan under Musharaff is ‘soft’ as well. Dozens of pople there are shredded to pieces in Mosque bombings there every month. Being a ‘hard’ state with no ‘minority appeasement’ doesn’t seem to stop them from sufferring far hugher losses to terrorism than the Hindus across the border. Or take Israel or Russia for that matter – surely there are few harder states than those. How many horrific acts of terrorism have they sufferred with no gurantees that a worse one will take place tommorrow.
GreatBong – you say you no longer believe that most Inidan Muslims are peace-loving citizens. Fine. But what do you wish that can be done about them. There are 140 million of them. What is a ‘hard’ solution? Round up all the bulldozers on the planet to deposit them into the Arabian sea. But wait. Maoists in India commit far more terrorism than Islamists and have effective control of dozens of districts in Bihar, Jharkhand and Andhra. Should we round up all the lower-castes from there and deposit them into the Bay of Bengal?
I share everyone’s anger and frustration about the latest bombings and have nothing but contempt like the UP minister who issued a price on the Danish cartoonists’. But believing that all can be solved by adopting a civl code ( a good idea ) and going up a few notches on the soft-hard scale doesn’t help. This is a serious problem that will require serious solutions (and often unwelcome ) solutions from all sides.
Hmm…. I can feel your anger. And may, I say brilliantly written. I wish I could express my own anger through such satire.
Me, I have been angry recently on a similar breed of ‘liberal’/PC-types – but here in the US. I am angry because it does not matter if you are a 60-year old democracy that has shown enormous restraints in face of continuous assault on it boundaries. It does not matter if you have shown maturity in handling you nuclear status and not tried to make money on the side, even in the face of severe sanctions.
No, you are cast alongside and equated with a country whose leader has called for the obliteration of an entire nation, and which in spite of signing the NPT is clamoring for nuclear weapons like a spoilt child. You are equated to a country whose leader looked the other way while its premier scientist was busy selling nuclear secrets to rogue nations.
I did consider myself a liberal in some sense, but now I have to wonder at the company I am keeping.
(if you don’t know what I am blabbering about – check this post at Sepia Mutiny)
As with any democratic state, India, too, has provisions to bring genuine minorities and economically undeveloped groups at par with the rest of society. However, since independence, certain segments of the not-so-minority community has been mollycoddled and been allowed to enjoy additional facilities simply because they follow a certain religion.
And it’s not that the Indian government is unaware of the folly of pandering to a religious group, but they choose to do it all the same. Simply because they need that certain community to vote for their so-called ‘secular’ party. This totally subverts the real meaning of secularity. Over the course of Indian history, every political party worth its salt has used the religion card to their best advantage – after all, it’s a time-tested formula!
Howver, what the successive governments choose to ignore is that treating a more-than-substantial community as minority is bound to create a feeling alienation in those very people, leading to the mushrooming of violence, terrorism, and overall dissatisfaction.
A good piece of writing, Arnab.
@Kuttan: Have I proven them beyond doubt? Lets wait for comments….oh guess what we already have one who is still not convinced.
@Swati: The fact that we dont have a Uniform Civil Code is just shameful.
@yourfan: We have been too soft on terrorism. Too keen to dole out rewards to terrorists in the guise of rehabilitation. The Mufti government in Kashmir pays off terrorists—while the victims of the violence are thrown a paltry 1.5 lacs for their trouble. Sickening.
@AndyS:
Where did I say that Andy?
In your obscene haste to be “liberal” did you not even try to understand what this piece was about—I still do make a distinction between the majority of Muslims and a few rotten apples…except that people like you dont even allow us to even call them “rotten”…hence my *sarcastic* point was that from now on I shall also stop calling terrorists as rotten and make no distinction between the vast good Muslims and the few bad ones and call all of them as *good*.
Got that now?
And dear Andy, Musharraf is hard on Hindu minorities—in pakistan it is Muslim vs Muslim. Pakistan in fact has solved their minority problem by killing off Hindus. I dont doubt the problem is serious but the solution is definitely not mollycoddling and inface it is the putting-in-place of stroner deterrents and funding for national “intelligence”—a quality in short supply.
@Bongopondit: I also consider myself a liberal…but not the self-flagellating kind. Not the kind who are “liberal” so that they can gain attention or because it makes them sound cool or because it helps them to get laid or because NYT will cover them or because certain “quarters” will pay for their US trips and deposition-before-Congress.
@Mystic Margarita: And an excellent comment.
Hi Greatbong
I read an interesting post by an Indian Muslim on the recent tragic bomb blasts:
(With apologies to Scott Adams)
Some Guy: Should India continue to be a ‘soft’ state and have it’s citizens killed every day or should it curtail the civil rights with a law like POTA/TADA and let the police kill terrorist suspects with extreme prejudice?
Me : Um…
Frankly, I’m suspicious of anyone who has a strong opinion on a complicated issue like this. There are no simple answers. It is necessary that we have laws that make convicting these a-holes easy but at the same time we need safeguards to protect innocents from being wrongly convicted. I have no problem with the police or security forces killing a militant but I do have a problem when they kill a innocent and cover it up.
In short the current strategy we are following is no good in this war. But the one suggested here isn’t any better either.
Well, Arnab, your post is blunt, and true. Yes,it is true that Indian muslims are most pampered minorities in the world (and still they are not happy and hence occasional clashes between Hindu-Muslims). Our president is muslim, our national team consists of muslim players and Indian people have given fame to many muslim film actors (compare this to status of minorities in any other country in the world).But still muslim people act like they are being oppressed in this country.(Remember, incidents like Gujarat have happened. But those are direct results of inciting by muslims). If you ask most of the muslims in this country, they will put religion above nation (and hence will secretly commend pakistan – as it is a muslim nation). This is not acceptable at all.
Still, the solution provided by Arnab doesn’t sound rational. We can not just get rid of this problem like this. Well, there is no end to the path of violence.
But, at the same time, our muslim brothers also have some responsibility. They should understand that muslims were responsible for division of this nation and hence hindus are bound to have a grudge against them. As muslim invaders in past have razed down temples and idols, hindus will definitely have a little enmity towards them. Still, hindus are trying to forget the past and be friendly with muslims. It is responsibility on the part of muslims to applaud this gesture and appreciate openly this fact that minorities are best treated in India (again some of my friends will point to stray incidents). Muslims should proactively try to help in catching of the terrorists(unless they do so, there will always be a doubt in hindu mind that all muslims are supporting terrorism). Muslims should condemn the terrorist attacks on Delhi and Varanasi with the same force with which they condemned George Bush when he arrived in India. In summary, muslims should come out in the open and try to change the image about them from religion frenzy community to a community faithful to nation.
gb: i am with you on this one.
– s. b.
@GreatBong Got it. I agree 100% with you that the answer is not more mollycoddling. However what I’m not sure is that the answer is ‘stronger deterrents and funding for national “intelligence†‘. A response to conter-terrorism does not fall in a straight line between harsher deterrence and appeasement. Otherwise ruthless dictatorships would never face terrorists which is clearly not the case.
I’m no expert, and I won’t even pretend that I have a solution for this mess but I believe that the solution will eventually be found on some tangent. Maybe cultural and sociological changes will make certain religons less militant, maybe the concept of a nation-state will become irrelevent in the future, maybe the economy will improve so that there are fewer alientated people willing to blow themselves up for a cause. And maybe we’ll just have have to secretly introduce LSD in the waters of all certain countries/communities, so that they throw away their guns, take off their clothes, learn to play guitars and transform themselves into a mob of ‘liberal’ hippies.
brilliant sarcasm. and absolutely spot-on.
Arnab,
As usual, I really liked your post.
AndyS,
I really liked your LSD solution. That’ll work.
But could you please help me figure out if I understood you correctly. So, your take is that…
1. Improving intelligence and building stronger deterrents is not the way to go.
2. We should expect cultural and sociological changes will take place within the militant groups of certain religions that will reduce militancy which hasn’t happenned so far, in what seems like hundreds of years.
3. We should expect the concept of nation/state to disappear. BTW, which stage of this project are we on right now?
4. Economy of certain nations will improve.
Umm, what is the time frame we are looking at for this? Let me know. I will lock myself in my house until then.
nice post,completely agreed.
However,my comments are about the “right” comment by Mr. Right above me.
“Remember, incidents like Gujarat have happened. But those are direct results of inciting by muslims”
I have heard Muslims saying here that this blast was the backlash of Hindu Fundamentalism!!!! funny,isn’t it,each passing on the blame to the other.and anyway,whether the Gujarat incident was due to the provocation of the Muslims is still a matter of debate (bothe the enquiries were politically motivated).
“Muslims should condemn the terrorist attacks on Delhi and Varanasi with the same force with which they condemned George Bush when he arrived in India.”
does the RSS condemn Gujarat with the same force as they do Varanasi??
“As muslim invaders in past have razed down temples and idols, hindus will definitely have a little enmity towards them”
Having a grudge against your neighbour just becuase Mohammad Ghori had razed some temple 1000 years ago, is absolutely stupid.
I dont see a point in taking sides and saying Hindus are trying to be friendly,or Muslims are trying to be friendly.Basically there are fundamentalists on both sides who should be curbed.
Arnab,
A brilliant, thought provoking post, which was well written and incisive; I agree with your broader conclusions, but the process of reaching these ends is rather problematic. Whether it was the MISA, TADA or the present POTA, draconian measures do not solve the deeper socio-economic issues.
Someone remarked about the Maoists; now, if there was ever a pampered minority in post-independence India (about 16 to 25 percent of the total population) it is our lower castes and tribes. However, the pampering is well deserved and much more needs to take place, in order to right the deep socio-economic inequities that Hinduism had burdened them with.
Nevertheless, in contrast, what exact privileges have the Muslim community in India received? What are the specific affirmative action programs that they have? In fact, it is a well-known fact that the vast majority of the Islamic community is poor and rural. Even the urban Muslim is primarily engaged in low-income jobs, and faces a tougher time in getting educated because of this background. Moreover, because our government recognizes the rights of the “Islamic Community”, whatever that may actually mean, over the individual Muslim, a certain clique of its own leadership beggars the Muslim community. The ruling regime and its secularist partners have played vicious politics by allying the “Islamic Communityâ€, whose loyalty is gained by negative policies (read fear of the right) not positive ones (read roti, kapra, makan, aur computer), with elements of our lower caste Hindus who are given positive incentives (read roti, kapra, makan, aur computer). This is affirmative action gone haywire: politicized beyond all recognition and recreating social divisions in reverse.
Is there a solution? Yes, base the affirmative action program on economic status not on accidents of birth. Every Dalit, every poor Muslim, Christian, Sikh, and aboriginal tribe should be equally helped by our state. In fact, since I’m a strict classic liberal (on the lines of Smith, Mill, Hayek, and Rajagopalachari), do not give this responsibility to the venal and corrupt state, hand it to the private sector. Let each multi-million dollar company sponsor subsidized educational institutions in under-developed areas; give them tax write-offs to encourage this behavior.
Aside from the economic measures, the Islamic minority of India is here to stay. They have as much right to stay here as you or I. Yet, the one issue is the identity of the Indian ‘nation’. Islam does not allow for ‘nationalism’: there is only ‘Dar-ul-Islam’ and ‘Dar-ul-Harb’ (excuse my spelling). No treaties of peace and friendship can be made with political entities inhabiting this sphere, for equal treaties can only exist between countries in the former sphere. And, India, both because it is secular and Hindu dominated, is in the latter sphere, despite being the second largest Islamic state in the world after Indonesia. Yes, we have more Moslems than Pakistan or any other Middle Eastern state. And, here a clear line must be drawn if the Lashkar and Jaish are to be prevented from making inroads into the minority at large. Both the LeT and JeM want to nationalize the Kashmir issue; turn Kashmir into a civil war. So, on the one hand, we need more equitable development policies for all our minorities and, on the other, with regards to nation building, the government should heed Napoleon’s words about the Jewish community vis-à -vis the Code Napoleon (I paraphrase): to the Jew as a man, everything, to the Jewish nation, nothing.
Umm…Arnab..This article has confused me a little. Your sarcasm makes it look as if you are retaliating an argument. I mean.. noone (including us from the suppos’d minority) has actually supported the terrorists on this one, isn’t it? So who is unknown entity who is actually asking for softness with terrorists?
We guys really need to stop making comunities out of individuals. like you said a small part of muslims think they are oppressed (and beleive me there those in every minority). But even all of those wouldn’t think of killing the hindu family next door. And I think the cause for these guys as ‘Islamic’ is ali’l too unjust (for us the real Islamics, not them). I mean not even they are ready to come front and say they did it for Islam, but we r like”u know those muslims, they did it for islam”.
And by the way Arnab, when u were a kid, were u like taken in some dark corner of a Madrasa by the local bully(who by chance was a muslim) and bashed up? Cos that seems to be the only logical explanation behind the root of your opinions.
(Just positive criticism)
P.S. Vasabjit, there is place for nationalism in Islam. Infact there is a clear guideline in the Quran about serving and being loyal to your ‘Land’ (believe me, I know this stuff)
@Michael: Admirable sentiment…indeed.
@Anil: What you paint is an ideal unattainable picture—score more runs and not lose wickets type. If I wanted to err on one side, I would surely err on the side of more vigilance and more “draconian” measures than to see innocents mowed down every few months.
@Right: I dont think Indian Muslims of today have anything to apologize for partition. Nobody is asking them to applaud gestures on the part of Hindus or to feel obligated to Hindus in any way.
@Somebody: Okay.
@AndyS: Again the reply is what I told Anil. Terrorism has to be taken as a law and order problem like rape and not as an “idealogical expression”,
@Lazy Leo: Thanks
@Debasish: And dont hold your breath either.
@Sourav: Agree totally.
@Vasabjit: Your last line excellently sums it up.
@Muhammed: I can see it has confused you. Well someone from the minority has obviously supported it since the terrorists do happen to belong to ahem one community. As to the unknown entity, this is not the first time I have raised such issues (if you would care to read the linked post in this blogpost) where commenters, Hindu may I add, have asked for “understanding”…of course not in these words.
Muhammed, we also know “this stuff”….so dont claim exclusivity on your own puported knowledge. And if anyone had bullied me in a dark corner anywhere, he would come out of the dark corner with his balls in his mouth and his thumb up his ass.
Incidentally, let me answer your question again.It is people like you who I am alluding to. Those who seek to deflect my point that we have been appeasing radical islamic segmets of India by painting me as generically anti-Islam. In other words, by saying that someone in my childhood must have bullied me, you imply I have a hatred of all Muslims….something which I have taken pains to dispel.
What the %$$ did you find anti-Islamic in what I said?
In conclusion, Muhammed if you come to attack me personally and not my argument then you are no better than the rabblerousers— unfit for civilized discourse. Just a bit of positive criticism.
Hi GreatBong,
Take out your Sourav Ganguly posts, and the rest of your blog makes sense. Well I guess everyone has his blind spot 🙂
Now who is this great saurav who comments here: “I dont see a point in taking sides and saying Hindus are trying to be friendly,or Muslims are trying to be friendly.Basically there are fundamentalists on both sides who should be curbed.”
I don’t know why people try to search for a symmetry in fundamentalism where none exists. If there are Muslim fundamentalists, there have to Hindu and Christian ones also. Hullo? Our Hindu zealots at best know how to hurl stones and sticks and tridents. While the Muslim zealot baby starts playing with RDX in his cradle.
The only solution for the problem is that Hindus need to be at least 80% of the total population. And then, they need to have their eyes open, not like our pseudosecular brethren. I don’t have a problem when Christians or Muslims talk about Hindu fundamentalists. That is fair enough; they have to do it because they think they are on the other side; they cannot imagine that being a Hindu is being secular inherently. But it’s stupid Hindus who talk like them–that’s what makes me mad.
@DeepThirdMan: Ahem. WRT Sourav and other things, maybe the person who is blindsighted is you…have you ever thought of that fact? I would beg to differ that Hindu fundamentalists are only sticks-and-stones hurtling amateurs—as demonstrated in Gujrat they are no better than Islamist terrorists. So let’s not get holier-than-thou here.
Being Hindu (as you pointed out), in the true sense of the term, is being secular—since Hinduism is the only religion in the world whose basic tenet is that since there are multiple ways to reach God and no single “correct way”. However that ideal has been bastardized and morphed, as a reaction to Islamic fundamentalism, into a kind of crazy form of Hinduism shorn off all its liberalism with a shameful acceptance of Jihadi rhetoric where the “Allah” has been replaced by Ram.
However the point I make is that while it is quite kosher to bash Hindu fundamentalists and still remain “popular”….praying for severe punishment for Islamic terrorists gets attention from people like Muhammad Deshmukh and his bully-in-madrasa fantasy.
Disclaimer: The sarcasm here is supposed to be HUMOROUS, NOT like when that guy sed stuff abt Brutus on Caesar’s funeral.
OK man I’ve read each one posts and I am beginning to understand your psychology. I mean, arent u just conflicting urself there. u can have as much fun with sarcastic humour as u want but what am i now, a verbal communalist or something? i wrote that line with HUMOR in mind; urs is a HUMOR blog; however political u wanna be, ur still funny. just becos u mention ‘those bad Madrasas'(plssss forgive me secular one, just lack of words) in almost every such post. I never wanted to label u as ‘anti-islamic’. For ur info i’m just a 16 yr old kid, so i just dunno how to use ‘big polite words’. and by the way ur still stikin to ‘terrrorrist frm … community so somehow … supports them’. Even by the Quranic defn of what makes a muslim, these r NOT MUSLIMS. so pls jusht for the sake my cutesy wutesy soft sentimental delicate feelings, atleast use ‘ISLAMIC FUNDAMENTALIST’ or ‘ISLAMIC MILITANTS’ insted of just ‘ISLAMIC’.
“…a brotherhood of Islam—where non-believers are either to be converted or killed.”
just the part i didnt like.
@Varsha : IMPORTANT: You made a comment which got caught by my newly installed SpamKarma….which right now I think sucks. I mistakenly deleted your comment…..I am so sorry…I could not read it…Posh it was gone. Would it be too much to repost your thoughts—again I am very sorry for this…
Yes GreatBong, the “ideal” Hindu secularism of do what you want, we will not do anything (this actually isn’t what is idealized in the Gita) has been affected by Islamic fundamentalism. That had to happen, and a good thing too. What kind of non-reaction do you want Hindus to have? What advantages does one have apart from being able to say, I am holier than thou?
If someone is bent on destroying you, you have to fight back. I am sorry I don’t like the solution either, but there is no other way. You cannot say I don’t want to fight, so please you also don’t fight. It doesn’t work that way.
Meanwhile, you can ignore the hybrid Muhammad Deshmukh, the teenager who thinks that by bridging the two antipodal names, he will bring about harmony in the two communities. A few years later, he will be talking like me. That is, if he is really a Deshmukh, and not a Muhammad.
Sri Lanka’s human rights record,particularly that of its army is not much to write home about. But then its difficult to deny with the straight face that the Indian army comes out smelling of roses in Kashmir. People can choose to call it “collatoral damage” or “we needed to rape the women to fight terror” but it exists, and violates our laws and consituttion.
I also resent the oversimplification of the “liberal argument”. There is campaign for terrorist rights, but for basic human rights. Yes, I know terrorists don’t respect them but to use an old cliche, are we any different. But, lets leave this contentious issue aside.
Why do so many “liberals” have problems with anti-terror legislation. Its because in many cases, it gives far too much discretion to the government and allows them to chip away rights of all citizens. No one in the US knows whether everyone in Guantanamo is actually linked to a terrorist group. For all we know, a software engineer from Kolkata or Karachi might have be picked up Newark and shoved in Guantamo. The most prominent POTA arrestee was Vaiko (amma’s newest ally), while it might be in national interest to keep Vaiko locked up, its certainly doesnt make him a terrorist. As someone asked Bill O Reilly, would you want a Patriot Act if Hillary were President, because you never know who can be classified a terrorist and thrown in.
Also, demanding the POTA in India is just silly because we already havea number of other draconian laws which have been held validby the Supreme Court. The PReventive Detention Act, the Defence of India Rules Act, the Disturbed Areas Act all give most of the powers POTA did. The difference being unlike the POTA, there is scope for the courts to examine (after the arrest/detention) whether there were sufficient grounds for hauling them in.
Finally, you criticized people who hold “try to understand terrorists”. And this generalization would cover everyone from Dr Karan Singh to Charu Mazumdar to Edward Said. There is difference between saying what these terrorists do is right or correct, than saying that there is a reason why they are doing it. No reason can justify killing innocents, be it “burning” a train or drawing a cartoon. However, if you hope to stop them you have to understand how they think and why they do it. Its not a bunch of crazed lunatics going around, but a group of cold blooded rational killers. And that rationality must be understood to tackle the roots of terror.
If Kashmiri youth are taking up the gun, it is not because they are inherently violent or anti India or learn to play with RDX in the cradle. (Incidentally, the last Indian prime minister to be blown up was killed by a hindu terrorist). There are reasons for grievances and unless some of those are addressed, we can keep killing as many terrorists we like but we won’t come closer to stopping terrorism.
I am not a great believer in conspiracy theory, but something is wrong somewhere.
Just two days ago, UP Congress leaders were on TV after anti-Bush protests led to death of four. The crux of what they said on TV was that UP government was warned about possibility of some incident to incite communal violence.
Now after to days this happens. BJP announces Rath Yatras, Sonia visits Varanasi, and Mulayam mentions “Pakistan ka haath” for the first time. I guess I may be wrong but the timing of the blasts makes me think that someone is out there waiting for this to happen.
I share your anger and disgust on Varanasi blasts. And I thank God that it was not followed by Gujarat style “expression of anger” events.
um.. DeepThirdMan, that IS my name, and I’m a !00% muslim by the way. Muslim Deshmukhs do EXIST, there are many( my whole family for one, which is BIIIGG lemme tell you).
(And I thought today was the only day i wasn’t asked abt my name)
hi arnab,
i was introduced to your blog by a friend of mine who sent a link of the desibaba post. after that i have been hooked on to your blog and am a great fan of your writing skills.but sometimes i do miss the point you are trying to convey amidst the sarcasm.anyway i have nothing much to add here.just want to point out to this well written article by koenraad elst, a renowed indologist.
http://koenraadelst.voiceofdharma.com/articles/fascism/secularism.html
So Mr. Red, did the Punjab terrorism problem stop because the cause of terrorism was understood and tackled at the grassroots level, or because most of the terrorists were killed, legitimately or encounter-style by Mr. Gill?
You cannot talk/negotiate with terrorists. Period. US and Israel policies make sense and are practical.
Problem with tackling Islamic terrorism this way is that you go after a few terrorists, and then find, hey I am taking on the whole bloody world! Then people talk of genocide.
Were it not for the Indian Army, no nomral person could visit the state, a part of our own country. God knows what will happen without the Indian Army.
Hi Muhammad Deshmukh, your name indeed is a novelty. How did it come about? What’s the origin of the Muslim Deshmukhs? A genuine query.
(i never get tired of tellin this story)
u see, Deshmukh is not like a afmily name, its a title(like Rai, Bahadur etc) which u get for some achievement in Shivaji’s army. and then it gets attached to ur family. So u know, maybe one my ancestors was there, fighting Aurangzeb.
What infuriate me the most are comments like “Islam does not condone killing innocent peopleâ€. Who the fuck gives a damn what Islam condones or not. Killing people, raping children may or may not be approved by Islam, but for sure they are NOT acceptable in a civilized world. If you want to live in a civilized world, you have to abandon those fantasies, not matter how much they are glorified by your religion.
I can’t see what we all disagree about. Everyone seems to be clear that the attack was made by terrorists and terrorists have no place in a civilized society. Why the fighting, name-calling among the commenters??? Sad, really sad… I must say, sarcasm, and satire are great forms of literature, but must be used most carefully, and by someone who knows how…
For God’s sake, if we are fighting even when we agree, the picture is really sad… Really, if this wasn’t a blog, but a discussion on the street, we would be fighting with sticks and knives by now… and before long it would be a riot… So I just want to request everyone to not blame any particular community, to use qualifiers like fundamentalists, and to show respect for other bloggers/ commenters opinions…
I usually admire your posts Arnab, but this one sounds more like Ann Coulter-ish in nature, especially the part where you imply that people (read liberals) bend over backwards to understand the motivations of terrorists rather than sympathising with the affected. Does this also mean that they have “affection for terrorists”? 🙂
Now this is a point of view and perfectly legitimate within that frame of reference, as Mickey Kaus pointed out in his defence of Ann Coulter. The interesting thing is how people begin think and speak similarly when affected by strong emotion. Who, perhaps even you, would ever think of being equated with a right-wing idealogue? But your polemic does give off that whiff – even if you have staunchly defended against that charge earlier in your responses.
Minority appeasement is prevalent, but to equate that with terrorism is dangerously close to what the BJP has been saying since yesterday. I guess we all have to be careful not to hitch a ride on the 2147th rathyatra that was announced yesterday.
Similarly, when angry, the word “POTA” suddenly begins sounding seductive and desirable. But pause. Think. POTA is far worse than the Patriot Act that can cause the GOP to tap your phones and rifle through your garbage everyday. POTA is/was akin to Gitmo in its severity and lact of oversight. All these laws are double edged weapons, or snakes. Sooner or later they turn bad and come back to bite you, as did our famed “encounter specialists” in Mumbai.
I know I am not giving any solutions, but we all need to think more rather than lash out. Lashing out in anger is easy, and frequently counterproductive.
On a different note, many Maharashtrian Muslims do have surnames like Deshmukh. I have a friend (a lady) who married into a family in Pune whose surname is Deshpande. At the time of the wedding in Patna, her family did not print the groom’s surname on the wedding card because guests would think she was marrying a Hindu!
Geez Arnab! Trying to stir the hornet’s nest, are you? 🙂
BTW, I love the post…brilliant sarcasm!
Islam followers cannot be terrorists
Its just one big conspiracy against Islam co-ordinated by all the world leaders(when they meet up for all the summits) and ably suppoted by the “western controlled” media(except al jazeera of course). And Of course its just a coincidence that in almost all of the Islamic Nations, sunni-shia and what not clashes are a a part of everyday life. And when the madrasas in India,kerala malappuram specifically, ask the boys to marry girls of other faiths and instruct everyone to have atleast 4 children(informed to me by a very decent unnamed muslim friend), so that the number of muslims can overtake that of kafirs….. its just a part of the religeon.
But I do earn my bread in one of the most liberal Muslim state in the world and have a lot of very close friends from the faith……still noone can deny the fact that these is some inherent flaw in the system.
The biggest thing which concerns me as an Indian is our CHALTA HAI attitude.We have a memory of 5 year olds( supposedly some scientific research has shown that they tend to remember more than adults).Bombay Bomb blast…Akshardham….Delhi Bomb Blast…Attack on Parliament…Ayodhya …and now Varanasi…and this list is definitely not exhaustive.For a few days, the entire thing is on the front page of the papers and as soon as the media gets a new issue,its forgotten by the whole country.But what do you expect when a state minister is ready to dole 51 crores to behead someone whose name 99% of Indians are dont know.I for one defo think that taking out a yatra at this point is heinous .But enough is enough.I am fortunate that I was not there at the Sankatmochan temple or Akshardham or Sarojini nagar market.But for how long?Who is going to assure me that tommorrow when I go out for shopping , I am not getting RDXed ? No one.
I would agree with anurag that India has a typical attitude of Sab Chalta Hai!! I think thats the major problem. And what evr amount of compensation the govt pays to the families of deceased, would it anyways help them? Bcoz the lives of the deceased are more precious than the money. and what will happen to them when the money gets over?
And i dnt think we should anyway diffrentiate Hindus and Muslims in this hour of crissi as in both are the sufferors of terrorism. Islam is not necessarily responsible for all the terrorist activities going on in this world.
Finally, i liked ur sarcasm in this post.
My new blog is http://www.diana-lineswritten.blogspot.com. U can visit this and look through my posts.
I would agree with anurag that India has a typical attitude of Sab Chalta Hai!! I think thats the major problem. And what evr amount of compensation the govt pays to the families of deceased, would it anyways help them? Bcoz the lives of the deceased are more precious than the money. and what will happen to them when the money gets over?
And i dnt think we should anyway diffrentiate Hindus and Muslims in this hour of crissi as in both are the sufferors of terrorism. Islam is not necessarily responsible for all the terrorist activities going on in this world.
Finally, i liked ur sarcasm in this post.
An organisation called Lashkar-e-Kahab has claimed responsibility for the blasts and has warned of similar attacks in other cities unless the government stopped its “catch and kill” campaign in Jammu and Kashmir.
And some fool said above in comments that Varanasi is backlash of Hindu fundamentalism.
You have to understand whatever Hindu fundamentalism exists, it got created as a reaction to muslim fundamentalism and minority appeasment by political parties. Why muslims are allowed to have four wives, while monogamy is the law for hindus. Why ‘Hum do hamare do’ for all others and a whole cricket team for muslims? This double standard and injustice has angered Hindus.
Hinduism is the only religion in the world whose followers are not told to attack other religions and convert people. Hence, when Hindus also take a path of fundamentalism; then muslims really have to introspect.
Honesty speaking I dunno what this is all about. Bush comes to India …signs some NO-Clear deal & then bomb blasts happen. We al know that Bushy darling is anti-Muslim or something of that sort. According to highlt placed intelligence sources, it is he who brought RDX into the country. C’mon Indians, can’t you see it through? Its the Goras trying to play divide & rule. Also, according to intelligence sources the marriage family that got killed in the Hanuman temple was Muslim.
Pssst : I have 2 Muslim friends. Both are diametrically opposite to each & the funny thing is both are brought up in the same city / college. Can someone tell me whom should I hate? Bcos hate I must & that too a Muslim 🙂
An excellent post and brilliant sarcasm. I agree with every point but I have a nagging feeling most of us are just going to forget about it. I wish to God Indians would get up and about on this and stop this sh*t that has been going on for so long.
There were demonstrations everywhere about the stupid cartoons but when it comes to REAL problems, I hear a bunch of ‘Islam doesn’t condone this’ and somehow that should resurrect those who died?
I find it very hard to believe this happens without insider help and I don’t care if it is a Hindu, a Muslim or a Sikh involved I’d want all of them taken out and sentenced to death preferably.Else we’d have a repeat of ’99 AI hijacking and off go the terrorists skipping happily after all the time and effort spent in trying to capture them.
I’m also sick of these ‘peace’ talks.Pakistan isn’t ready to listen to our demands about OUR land and OUR people- and we entertain it with these talks and opening up our borders more?
How convenient to train Islamic militants, then wash your hands off them in trying to appear ‘peaceful’and say you can’t control them while you happily watch them do the job you couldn’t do legally as a nation.
Arnab,
Great post. I agree with most of what you say. I think your position is quite moderate and correctly makes the distinction between normal peace loving Muslims and terrorists.
However, your position is being hijacked by the usual bunch of Hindutva types in your comments section . The BJP. RSS, Bajrand Dal et al are every bit as extremist and violent as the myriad Islamist terrorist groups.
This is not a clash of religions or civilizations. It is a struggle between the forces of secular, liberal society on the one hand and those of fundamentalism(of all religions/ideologies) on the other hand. There are fundamentalists in every religion.
Secularism in India has never been a genuine secularism, with true separation of church and state. Politics in India has either pandered to minorities or the majority. We need true secularism, absolute and total separation between church and state.
Look people, we all know that terrorism, specially the Islamic kind, is a huge global problem. It is not going to go away in any foreseeable future, if at all. In the mean time, a country like India, or any country for that matter, will have to take several different measures to “control” it.
Those peace talks that we are getting sick of, are part of those several measures and are necessary for India. It is plain diplomacy. Pakistan is a nation. That is an in your face kinda fact. India cannot possibly just ignore it and continue with just the tough measures. It is not just about having peace talks with them, it is also a strategy to develop alliances with other powers of the world.
On the other hand, just having peace talks and hoping the terrorist groups/countries to undergo socio-economic reforms is not going to work either. It is important to have real tough military and judicial measures and increased funding and effort in intelligence. If the fear is that innocents get killed in the due process then advanced intelligence should take care of it. I mean, nobody is trying to deliberately kill innocents, are they?
I have read the following before in this blog and even in the comments in this post… about double standards, not having uniform code, monogamy for Hindus and polygamy for Muslims. True, there should be a uniform code. However, I have a feeling that the politicians do not know how to change it even if they want to. There were many things that the first govt of independent India did (reservation anyone?) that are extremely difficult to be undone by today’s politicians without risking the demise of their own political careers, if not their lives. I do not think doing so is in the character of most politicians, not just in India but anywhere in the world. I have a feeling that this non-uniform code is there to stay as well.
Dear Arnab,
Well I follow your blog for a couple of months now. And like Anandabazar, TOI I take it as a great source of information and entertainment.
I am utterly disgusted for the govt response after each terrorist attacks. start from the days of Bbay blast, delhi, akshardham, kabul, hazratbal, IISC and now varanashi. After each one the standard press release from PMO was “terrorists wont be unpunished”. But what really happened…. nothing… zero… nada
There has to be some strong laws like TADA for catering the needs of these asshole. being in US for say around 5 years (came in 2001) I understand the general sentiment of the people of this country a bit… whether right or left… liberal or conservative all agree that terrorism is a menance and the teerrorists are criminals… funnyly in India the sentiment in quite different we have three kind of people one who view the terrorists as criminals, one who have direct sympathy to the terrorists and some how abet and fan it with every mean, and the worst the third kind who tries to prevent the first kind from taking any strick position, passing any laws to punish terrorists under the name of “liberaral mind”… “less gov control”… like those kind of bullshit. Well believe me Marx and angel facinates me but that doesnt mean that I shouldnt be calling a murderer a murderer…
Sometime I do believe that the key is in the hand of our minority friends… when they can stand up and say we do not protect/support/show sympathy for this bastards… dont worry about our vote bank… it would be intact even if you drag the terrorist who may be happen to be the teacher of my local madrasa… but he is a criminal like a child rapist Dhananjay… we rather not listen to the Imams or Mullahs becoz they do not provide two square meal for my children its my country does and what ever is best for my country is best for me…
May be then… but ahhhhhhhhh there is a big MAY BE
With regards to tougher laws against terrorism, I support them in principle, but what worries me is that the Indian police do not really have a stellar record .
Already in India, our civil liberties are heavily encroached upon by the state. We all know how corrupt and rotten the police and judicial system in India is.
Many innocent people are likely to be targetted by such laws.
We need to be harsher on terrorism but at the same time human rights of innocent people should not be collateral damage.
@Muhammed: The point with good humor is that most people get it. I didnt get yours…and from the looks of things another guy(Deepthirdman) also didnt.
@Deepthirdman: The point I wanted to make is that let us not go down to the level of rabid Islamic rhetoric in defining Hinduism. And it is not for Hindus to retaliate against Muslims (as you imply when you say: . What kind of non-reaction do you want Hindus to have?)—it is for the government to treat terrorism as a law-and-order situation of the worst kind and put into place appeasement-free punitive measures. Again that is the prerogative of the government and not of Hindus as a community.
@Red: My retort is simple:–> We are not interested in what drove you to murder people.—whatever your cause is. Rapists also have their logic: some of them are themselves the victims of rape/sexual abuse often as children. But does it save them? No. Would anyone use that to let them loose on the streets? No.
Kashmiri youth taking up the gun—that point can be debated. What about the guy in UP—the SIMI cadre who travels to Nepal to meet ISI agents? What historic trauma is he reacting to?
@Dharmendra: I hope Hindus do not “spontaneously” react. Again as I pointed out, it is the government that should “react”. It should be the press that should condemn this in the strongest form. Have they? No.
@Sivaramkrishnan: I am sorry that happens. All I can say that there are many others who can see the point amidst all the sarcasm.
@Deep Third Man: An excellent example–Punjab terrorism. It stopped because of better (and draconian) policing and not because we won hearts over. The problem with Muslim extemism is hundred times more complicated but the solution I gather is almost the same.
@Subhendu: You are free to fantacize…the law exists as a deterrant to prevent you from living them out.
@Voice: The thing is that this is not the street. It is essential for people to discuss things (even if they appear rabid to some) and it is precisely discussion and the freedom to discuss it that prevents people from knifing each other.
@Shan: All I can say Shan is that if I was Anne Coulter I would have said :” Let’s invade Pakistan and convert all of them to Hindus”….its a pity that you equated my balanced stance with something like that.
Says a lot doesnt it? If the son was Muslim and marrying a Deshmukh would they have been so keen to avoid a misunderstanding?
@Nautilus: Thank you
@Rahul: How is “liberalism” defined in terms of an Islamic country? A relative of mine said that Bahrain allowed temples making it extremely “liberal” and thus worth applauding. Now consider what we in India have to do to get the “liberal” tag.
@Anurag: That is exactly the point Islamic militants want to make. Bazaars, temples and even IISc….we will kill everywhere.
@Dina: No not for all. But a whole lot. And thats radical Islam—which unfortunately is whats in fashion nowadays.
@Right: Lashkar -e- Kabab they should be. Now heres the thing. The people who let Muslims have 4 wives are Hindus. Yes. Its they who have refused to have an UCC. It is Mulayam Singh Yadav under whom UP is a hot-bed of terrorist activities. It is Paswan who carries an Osama-lookalike to his campaign rallies.
@Ashit: I never told you to hate Muslims…..as a matter of fact the entire post was all about making the distinction.
@Deepali: Pakistan…dont get me started. The peace initatives and the ladoos and Urmila at Wagah make me sick…all I can think of is their minions mutilating the body of Captain Saurabh Kalia—gouging his eyes and genitalia. That’s all I can think of and wonder how does he feel, if he could, when he sees all this?
@ Mr X: That is why I take pains in the comments section to distinguish myself from the RSS worldview.
@Debasish: You are right. UCC can never be undone—noone has the political balls for that.
@Statitism: Unfortunately, the concept of country is rather blurred (just like it for Communists) in Islamic dogma.
@Mr X: Totally agree. Thats why the problem is so difficult.
@statisim –
Sometime I do believe that the key is in the hand of our minority friends… when they can stand up and say we do not protect/support/show sympathy for this bastards… dont worry about our vote bank… it would be intact even if you drag the terrorist who may be happen to be the teacher of my local madrasa… but he is a criminal like a child rapist Dhananjay… we rather not listen to the Imams or Mullahs becoz they do not provide two square meal for my children its my country does and what ever is best for my country is best for me…
Yes,That’s exactly what is expected from our muslim friends. Has any muslim come forward to condone these cowardly attacks on Varanasi with the same force with which they condoned Bush?
@Mr.X –
With regards to tougher laws against terrorism, many innocent people are likely to be targetted by such laws.
Well, this is quite expected to happen. When you take a pill of anti-biotic, some good body cells also get burnt with bad ones. And why would police attack innocent people, do they have personal grudge against them? To cure illness, sometimes, surgery is required and pain comes hand in hand with it. We can’t just avoid surgery with the fear of pain.
@ Right:
And why would police attack innocent people, do they have personal grudge against tTohem?
We can’t just avoid surgery with the fear of pain.
Right, do you honestly believe that the police in India are a fair and upright force? In my limited dealings with Indian police, I have found them extremely corrupt and highly susceptible to influence and corruption. It won’t be wrong to say that the rich and powerful in India can literally get away with murder (Jessical Lal case is an example).
There are a million Jessical Lal’s in India, innocent people to whom justice is denied.There are cases where poor people are made to take the fall instead of the actual perpertrator ,if that guy happens to know the right people.
Imagine a scenario in which the whole country wants a quick arrest in response to a terrorist attack. Do you think it’s beyond the police to pick up some random (probably Musilm) guy from the street, make him the fall guy and proclaim the case solved?
As I said, I support tougher laws but with the record of our police force, I also worry about violations of innocent people’e civil rights and liberties. It’s a dilemna that can only be addressed by systemic changes and reform .
I do advocate that we deal with terrorism much more firmly . I think a good start would be de-politicising the police force so that they can do their job without fear or favour. We need to enable better intelliegence sharing between army, paramilitary forces, intelligenece agencies and local police.
I think GB is being too politically correct here and I do not blame him based on all the unjust attacks he usually gets (Like the mega-clown Akash in the Ashfaq post). Islam as a religion endorses attacks on idol-worshippers as a basic tenet. For any devout Muslim who follows the letter of the Koran, killing people in a Hindu temple (idols) is thus a holy duty. In such a circumstance it is nigh impossible to distinguish between a militant Muslim and a devout Muslim. Maybe it may be that the devout Muslim mere wishes death to idol worshippers and the militant Muslim actually does it.
As to the point of the marriage card, Muslims consider it a holy duty again to breed more Muslims in the womb of non-Muslims. According to them, it is an honor to land a non-Muslim bride. To be honest, it actually doesnt even count against your 4-wives quota: so that makes it like “weekend minutes”. However it is a disaster for people to even think that a Muslim girl is marrying a Hindu guy. Horrors.
So open your eye Shan and see it for what it really is.
hey arnab the joke was a tribute to ur mentioning madrasas in context to terrorism most of the time and if u think this is the wrong place i’m sorry. i thot u cud take a joke, u being a funny man and all, maybe u were living up to the post u made abt indians not being able to laugh at themselves.
Well getting serious, I think i’ll have to agree to some pts that some INDIAN muslims do have militant ideas which are definitely fuelled by pakistanis. The thing is I’ve Lived in Saudi Arabia for the first 13 yrs of my life and have witnessed Islam in its simplest and purest form and I just can’t tolerate the misinformatn abt Islam in india. If i start telling whats wrong with Islam in india i’ll spark off an intra-religious riot. We need education, the religious kind cos muslims in india just don’t know islam properly. The whole thing is based on wrong practices, uncalled for ‘holy’ traditions and misinformed fatwas. The basics like actually checking out the Quran which is the only official rule book. And noone wants to accept it, u tell a person – u know that ‘holy’ thing u do its actually unholy and they r like so n so ‘scholar’ on that paki ‘islamic’ channel sed n ur like so whatabt the Quran? And Secondly the Indian Muslims need proper leadership – who can public denounce such attacks, who won’t whine against our country, who’ll actually know islam not think the coolest islamic thing to do is yell in public ‘get the head of that asshole who did those cartoons and ull get money – from the govt!”
I’ve known pakis n can safely say they’re the biggest promoters of ‘islamic’ terorism in the world. They walk around acting as if the holiest of all, never have visited a mosque in their life but the greatest ‘allegiance to islam’ they can make is declare ‘i’m the biggest fan of Osama n i pray for the day i go for jihad’
People think S.A. is a trrorist country but its in fact one of the biggest victims. There are blasts every second day and what not. The ‘terrorist’ movement is just an underground group of youths who r angry with the gov’t n r eventually recruited by a angry bearded guy who was kiked out of the country.
I hope some views from a person from the other side of the argument helps clear a few things.
Well said Pranav. That might be an eye-opener for our secular friends. Yes, the whole scum starts in kuran itself. If every muslim starts following kuran word to word in his life then whole world would be chaos. Lucky that they are not doing that. Some of my muslim friends laugh at halal and some of the kuran stuff. That’s why I am sure that muslim people do not follow kuran 100%.
One more thing, some of our secular friends are putting wrong information here in comments. The couple at whose marriage Varanasi bomb blast took place was not a muslim couple – names, Surendra and Manju Kanodiya.
Also, India is not second most muslim populated country. At least pAkistan is ahead of us – 157 million.
Some related thoughts
1) Why the heck should people protest in India about a cartoon published in Demark by an Individual ?. Again, if they were so jobless and wanted to protest, why should they strive to close down the shops that do business in the area ? And why the hell that we leave all these people scot-free and not make them pay for the damages ?? (This includes all the poloitical parties too)
2) And when MF Husain draws hindu gods in nude, India is a liberal country and turns a blind eye. But India turns conservative and bans books by Rushdie and Nasreen because they are blasphemy. Free Speech!! anyone ??. This makes India a TRYULY POLYMORPHIC country that proponents of Object Oriented Programming would love 🙂
um Right and Pranav, I really didn’t wanna answer to any anti-muslim stuff but this is really getting on my nerves. Seems like u know a lot abt the Koran than such unaware muslims as me. I was astonishd by the the new info u gave me It really interested me to read the Koran, which i, a muslim knew nothing abt. But what do I see? The Koran was somethig else. Something abt tolerence towards other religions and stuff. But I sued the printing company immediately. What a blasphemous printing mistake!
And the last post i wrote, abt indians not being educated abt the quran (mind u its in arabic) and following customs n rules made by half-educated ‘scholars’ was hogwash. They of corse were follwing the right Koran. I was following a boook filled with errors like Peace, non-voilence, tolerence etc. Hogwash all.
And not following customs of ur religion makes u like cool, I didn’t know that at all. I mean I thot that all my Hindu frends were so cool but now i know how pathetic they were. They actually followed their religion! But i most of all i feel pathetic for myself. I did the same mistake. I followed my religion! How could i?
And to end it i’d like ask you guys to send me an autographed copy of ur Koran for it will be an honour for me to read the actual book owned by scholars wo haveresearched it so well.
Thank u for opening my eyes.
@Muhammed Deshmukh:
Whoa. Islam–a religion of peace ! Wow. Why dont you answer these questions: (according to your 16 year old understanding of your religion)
1. Does Islam sanction death for infidels and idol-worshippers?
2. Does Islam mandate Jeziyah?
3. Who invented the term Dar-ul-Harb? Hindus?
Plus dude, your sarcasm is too forced and it does not work. Not everyone can be GB. It is beyond me to make you open your eyes when you call Islam as a ‘religion of peace’ when nothing can be further from the truth.
Chill everyone.
@ Muhammed: A whole lot of things “can” be done, but that is not the point of the post. Neither is a person with one arm and one and three quarter legs interested in knowing the nuances of Islam, or for that matter, any religion.
The simple point Greatbong is trying to make is that, if somebody kills, or plans to kill, or has bedtime fantasies about blowing up heads- it’s just not worth the effort and expenses to go up to them with a box of chocolates and a book on Gandhian philosophy (or a “real” abstract of Quran directives for that matter). Criminals are criminals- irrespective of what innocent thoughts they had when they took potshots.
That last para was an understatement. Kid gloving religious intolerance is a crime.
If “true religious education” can transform Osamas into Haynes sisters, thumbs up to it. But before it shows signs of such miracles, it won’t be a bad idea to get tough in the “uncivilized, military” sense. After all, with all the tax a guy pays to the government, it’s not an unreasonably ambitious thing to ask that it makes sure his arms and legs are in place.
P.S.: You’re getting emotional I see- watch your typos.
Arnab, great post. One can feel the pain and the helplessness coming out of this post.
To be honest, I dont have as much problem with the muslim community as such, as I have with the media and the secular types. It feels that any attempt to disagree with them automatically put one in the communal category and then, of course, what you say does not matter.
I do not know what the reaction of all the great icons of secularism would be if they were anywhere near those blast sites.
Mohammad,
It is always nice and interesting to hear the point of view from a muslim on the issue of Islamic terrorists. Specially, when it comes from a 16 year old who spent 13 years of his life in Saudi Arabia learning the purest form of Islam. You sound very mature for a 16 year old in your interests. Very promising, I have to say. Sadly, none of the 16 year olds that I know of show any interest in such serious and dark discussions. I am sure you make your parents proud. I, for one, am highly impressed.
Question about your earlier post regarding how muslims in India do not know Islam properly. You do realize that the message it sends (at least it did to me) is that pretty much all muslims in India who have learned Islam and its principles in India have not been taught the true and “pure” form of Islam that preaches tolerance, non-violence etc. So, to those who you feel are wrongly connecting terrorism with muslims in general, are you saying they should not be doing so, hosever it would be okay for them to associate ALL INDIAN muslims with terrorism? They haven’t learnt the peaceful, tolerant version of Islam, remember?
When I put your earlier post and the one in response to Right and Pranav (after applying the sarcasm translator) together, that is what it sounded like and I think you could be chartering hot waters, bro!
Unless of course, I have totally misunderstood everything in the middle of sarcasm, counter sarcasm and counter-counter sarcasm. In that case, pray explain!
Dear muhammed
Ok, let’s agree for a moment that Quran is a real great book (though we know for sure it contains material which is not so peace-loving or moral) . But what the hell Islam’s followers are doing. Prophet and his book can be assumed to be great for a second. But what its followers are reading from it is more important, isn’t it?
Now, explain me, why there is anarchy and religious unrest at every place where muslims co-exist with other religion. muslims are only people in world who are involved in war all across the world, be it gulf, Russia, USA, Far east Asia. They fight with christians, jews, hindus. They even do not spare historic buddhist statues in Afghanistan.
There is some problem with your so-called peace loving religion, Mr.muhammedand and be brave to accept this fact.
Some facts for your info:
http://www.geocities.com/AntiJihad/home.html
Pranav
I’m sure u know more than a 16 yr old who’s been learning islam since 2. Just rremember to tell me how many WORDS of the Quran u actually know by personally reading. your answers:
1. No. If a person is not a muslim, no islamic law can be applied to him. The thing u said, no such in the Book. The only which may be interpreted as ‘fighting’,’killing or’war’ in the quran is one which says something like ‘you may attack(no mention how) an enemy(no specifics) only when he/they attack first” This applied to all cases whether the ‘fight’ is Islamic or whatever.
2. See u know every law in an arab country which is something in arabic is not islamic, okay? Jeziyah is a just a tax on non-muslims which some arab ruler in some countres thought of and is aplied in very arab countries. In Saudi Arabia, where the islamic law is completely by the Book, no such thing. Yes, there are non-muslims there who live freely and normally.
3. To quote Wikipedia
“Dar al-Islam (Arabic: دار الإسلام literally house of submission) is a term used to refer to those lands under Muslim government(s). In the conservative tradition of Islam the world is divided into two components: dar al-Islam, the house of submission and dar al-Harb, the house of war.
Dar al-Islam and its associated terms are not found in the two most basic works of Islam, the Qur’an and the Hadith. Muslim scholars maintain that the labeling of a country or place as dar al-Islam or dar al-harb revolved around the question of religious security. This means that if a Muslim practices Islam freely in his place of abode, then he will be considered as living in a dar al-Islam, even if he happens to live in a secular or non-Islamic country.”
Check the part abt Quran and Hadith. As i said we need to beleive more in the Basics the Quran.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dar_al-Islam
Anonymous
You r definitely right. These people definitely are criminals. Other than that i can’t say anything abt them. The religious education part was for thse till-now ok muslims in india who believe and support such acts atleast mentally or think this is the way of islam. What to do with the osamas, i can’t think of any solution to that.
Debashish
I’m wrong if my thot abt indian muslims went a lil extreme. What i meant was islam in india is highly confused, mixed up, things gotten lost in translation and extremities filled in place. Precisely why some non-muslims think islam is compliacted. It is here that ‘terrorism is good’ ‘killing non-muslims is good’ ‘my country is bad’ ‘we belong in the other country’ like thots start coming up. I’ve noticed this in Indian n paki muslims only.
Right
“(though we know for sure it contains material which is not so peace-loving or moral)”
Pls just mention ur source of ‘knowing’. Its this attitude that makes pple go ‘i KNOW those @#$%%^%^ muslims r baaaadd!’ And my last posts were precisely abt how muslims tday r misguided n need to go back to the basics like the Quran. So b happy i kinda agree with u on that one. And by the way i cud start a whole article on what the real meaning of jihad is n how its grossly misunderstood by muslims n non-muslims alike, but not here.
P.S. Arnab I just wanted to answer the questions directed at me, i hope u don’t all these lenghthy posts n stuff.
Bongda,
With the topic you broached, sarcasm sometimes doesnt work -like in this situation. The ‘bajrang dalis’ take you for one of their own while the ‘sensitive liberals’ see another opportunity to get laid. ;-).
In clear, prosaic, dull terms, here is my viewpoint.
1. Terrorism should be quashed in the most efficient manner possible, with the long term implications in mind, through a sound and balanced policy of incentives and penalties.
2. Islam, in the public mind, both in the US and India is getting increasingly stereotyped as a hate mongering, bomb exploding cult. This is because of the extreme visibility and power the hate-mongering faction of the Islamic Community seeks and enjoys.
3. This rabid Islamic faction not only tinges the borders of Islam with blood but also is impacting the Islamic Community as a whole. It is time that the ordinary,moderate, middle of the road muslim stepped up to counter these hate-spewers emanating from their community because they are the ones who will be suffering from maximum collateral damage. And yes, they, the ordinary,middle of the road muslims, will have to work much more harder, simply because of the power of the adversary here.
@Muhammad the Deshmukh
Your last post was really nice Muhammad.
Lets not lose our heads when others are losing theirs.
Greatbong’s post was very balanced and correctly made the distinction between terrorists who seek to exploit religion as a tool and between the normal peace loving janta.
Unfortunately ,as is wont to occur nowadays, various Hindu fundies have used this as an excuse to start attacking the religion of Islam in the comments section.RSS/VHP/Bajrang Dal are nothing but the other side of the same Islamic terrorist coin.They are the Hindutva terrorists.
Each one thinks their religion is the best and like to point out flaws in others religion. The merits/demerits of religion are not germane to this discussion of terrorism.
This is not a clash of religions or civilizations. It is a struggle between the forces of secular, liberal society on the one hand and those of fundamentalism(of all religions/ideologies) on the other hand.
That was so well written.
Funny that ‘secularism’ which was once a lofty to aspire for ideal according toe dictionary is not so much anymore! Since the times the lovely polity have won/lost elections based that, it has become a vulgar word. Everyone wants to be secular but there is a fear to admit to that. Very many comments on this post suggest that it is easy to flame people on the issue. Unrelated, I am very happy to see that. I had always thought only ‘chick’ bloggers were at the receiving end of “interesting†comments, seems not. It surely is a fair world! 🙂
@Primalsoup: Oh no …they are not. Just look at the posts around you to see that the Hawks of the world are rather benign.
Only because of the misdoings of a handful few the whole Islamic community is misunderstood all over the world. This weblog
http://www.muttawa.blogspot.com
shows that there are still rational-minded, progressive Muslims and that too with wonderful sense of humour. I just can’t help but admire this gentleman, Mr Al hamedi, more and more everytime I read his posts.
@Dharmendra: I hope Hindus do not “spontaneously†react. Again as I pointed out, it is the government that should “reactâ€. It should be the press that should condemn this in the strongest form. Have they? No.
Most of Hindi Newspapers, All TV News channels, and many English Newspapers have condemned the blasts. In the strongest form? I don’t know. But the attitude of governments particularly state government has been “too bad it happened, don’t worry we’ll give you money”. Pathetic. No signs of, as you put it, “Terrorism has to be taken as a law and order problem like rape and not as an ‘idealogical expression'”.
I strongly believe that a Government can stop these “events” from happening if it wants to. But the political components of Government are too busy playing politics (regaining lost ground in this case).
@Dev: Have read his blog before…he is indeed marvellous.
@Dharmendra: In the present context, we have an UP govt thats hand-in-glove with organizations like SIMI and that has given free reign to such elements. They are also involved in smuggling across the Nepal border and thus turn a blind eye to the Pakistanti infiltration across the border.
Best solution to any problem : just identify the root of the problem and destroy it in order to get rid of the problem permanently.
Starting from where Gujarat ends, up to the border from which Israel begins…… Do continuous carpet bombing for a few weeks……the amount of worldwide terrorism will come down drastically ( by 80-90 %).
BRILLIANT!
but people do we really need to defend either God or religion?
it just defeats the definition of both.
GB,
I am hard pressed for time. But let me tell you that this was an extraordinary post, even by your standards. A longer comment will follow.
“Yes I have learnt the mature language. Terrorists have human rights. Victims dont. Victims deserve to get their brains blown over everywhere. Terrorists dont—they deserve biriyani. While it is considered “mature†to wish the death penalty for “rapistsâ€, (because “mature†people never want to say anything that may offend women—oh no how else would they get laid—after all “sensitive men†are always at an advantage in this regard) it is not so for terrorists.”
50 years from now, when a book like “Initial works of GreatBong-Part1” does critical analysis of your works, i wish to see a chapter written on just the above quote.
Pranav, Dev, Right, and other assorted louts,
As soon as you perceived some right leaning tilt from Arnab, you showed your true colors didn’t you? The kind of statements you make astonishes me because you should be subscribing to Saamna instead of a blog. If you are representative of the kind of following Arnab enjoys, or worse, inspires, then Arnab might think twice before writing similar stuff again.
What was that about carpetbombing countries north of India again? A complete genocide, eh? Obliterate the entire collection of scum who call themselves muslim. Wow, what a brilliant idea! Wonder why noone thought of that before? Oh wait a couple of people did – Hitler and Pol Pot. Wonderful company for you.
Pranav, many rational people in India are for the UCC, including me. But there is no political will at all. None. Even your BJP in its tenure did not lift a finger to make that happen. So much for pre-poll promises. So that ain’t gonna happen. Forget about that.
Islamic fundamentalism in India is about power, not religion. Religion is the means. The muslim community is still in fearful thrall of the mullahs who have vested interests in perpetuating their poverty and illiteracy to keep their hold on them. And it is very easy to blame it on the “hindu” government of India. What we need to do is take out these mullahs – these hatemongers. Arrest them for incitement of violence and try and jail them for long periods. Of course this has to be equitable. That means that Bal Thackerey, Vinay Katiyar, and Praveen Togadia will have to go to jail too. Hope that is okay with you Pranav and Right.
Shan,
“As soon as you perceived some right leaning tilt from Arnab, you showed your true colors didn’t you? The kind of statements you make astonishes me because you should be subscribing to Saamna instead of a blog. If you are representative of the kind of following Arnab enjoys, or worse, inspires, then Arnab might think twice before writing similar stuff again.”
Why? I mean when you say true colours, how about if I accuse you to be colour blind? Of being unable to digest the plain truth.
“What was that about carpetbombing countries north of India again? A complete genocide, eh? Obliterate the entire collection of scum who call themselves muslim. Wow, what a brilliant idea! Wonder why noone thought of that before? Oh wait a couple of people did – Hitler and Pol Pot. Wonderful company for you.”
Who said that? Noone. But terrorists are terrorists. They should be obliterated. Period. I really dunno whats this big fuss all about. A guy writes a memorable blogpost. All hes trying to say is what many people want to say but are unable to say due to the fear of being branded as communal. In order to mollycoddle and appease certain minority groups, the GOI is severely compromising its own security. What a farce.! It has been abundantly proved that Islamic terrorism is fact, not fiction. So why cant we talk about it. And why does analysing that be tantamount to being communal?
Even Muhammad acknowledges that the wrongdoings are due to the misinterpretations of Quran. So Islam may be a great religion, but it has certainly sent out the wrong messages by the atrocities of quite a few of its followers. Maybe its a bit like communism. Fantastic on paper. Incompatible with today’s world and a free society to be precise.
Its tremendously fashionable in India to denounce people like Tagodia , Thackarey etc . But criticisms of the Islamic militant groups is done very cautiously. This double standard is what annoys me. Also people criticize Modi so much. Hardly anyone say anything about that fire. 1 mosque was brought down. But noone talks about how many temples were brought down worldwide. Strange!
Comment of this post is from Subhendu:
“What infuriate me the most are comments like “Islam does not condone killing innocent peopleâ€. Who the fuck gives a damn what Islam condones or not. Killing people, raping children may or may not be approved by Islam, but for sure they are NOT acceptable in a civilized world. If you want to live in a civilized world, you have to abandon those fantasies, not matter how much they are glorified by your religion.”
The essence of this post come out from this comment by Andy Flower:
“GreatBong – you say you no longer believe that most Inidan Muslims are peace-loving citizens. ”
Never did he say that. But how conveniently someone equated discussing Islamic terrorism with anti-islam. In fact I am quite familiar with such rants against Arnab , like in the linked post. This together with the comment with another person who called GB “immature” is the genesis of this post. What GB is saying that in the name of minority mollycoddling, we are being a bit too soft on terrorists. Security of the country is his desire, not Islam bashing. And if it has been proved time and again that a religious group is responsible for many many blasts and killings, well then gentlemen such an issue deserves to be analyzed. If someone says that GB is not being politically correct in using strong terms, then you better go and study standard 10 ICSE Civics texts where lines like ” All religions SHOULD BE RESPECTED”. Unfortunately in the real world that is not the case. Thats why a temple is bombed. If particular places of worship and places like Amarnath are targetted again and again, then yes the religion of the perpetrators loses respect in the eyes of all and sundry.
But the trend of discussing is like….. LK Advani is gross bad, Islamic extremists are bad too…but we wont discuss them to show solidarity to our Musim frnds.
@GB:
“I also consider myself a liberal…but not the self-flagellating kind. Not the kind who are “liberal†so that they can gain attention or because it makes them sound cool or because it helps them to get laid or because NYT will cover them or because certain “quarters†will pay for their US trips and deposition-before-Congress.”
Sweet timing!!
Mr X and Right and Pranav were brilliant too. people say that harsher methods not the answer. Then pray whats the answer? Leaning over and analyzing the cause of offence is fine with rapists and murderers , but if you say that we should do so with terrorists too…then we are simply endangering ourselves. The velvet glove (Love Sweet Love- the apt title for this post) didnt yield any significant positive result. So why not give the iron fist a chance?
oh and GB…that Ravi Shastri bit was cracking too. Here is a guy who bled India for 80 tests. So you think we are lucky not to be terrorists after enduring so many years of Shaz? :))
Hmmm…..Mohammad Deshmukh.
Indeed, sir I see that I must have been blind after all. Not as in metaphorically blind but Stevie Wonder-blind because I spent 8 years of my life in Saudi Arabia too. And incidentally I’m a Hindu. I really really think I must’ve lost my sense of sight because what you describe as the situation in that great islamic land just does not conform to what I saw. Religious police, 10 year old Saudi and Egyptian children throwing stones at my 6 yr old “kaafir” brother for daring to play in their court, and state-sanctioned discrimination against my dad in employment (as a Nephrologist with 25 years experience, he earned only a little more than a Muslim Saudi NURSE)
Indeed I see also that your propaganda (or ignorant misinformation campaign) is working among some people here about the ‘religion of peace’ deal. I’ve read 4 translations of the Qur’an. I’ve read the hadiths of Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. I’ve also read the Sira of Muhammad by Ibn Ishaq. I’ve also read the tafsir of the most celebrated Quranic commentator Ibn Kathir from 10th century Baghdad. Kathir himself states that offensive Jihad is obligatory for muslims as a community, but not as individuals. If a perpetual state of jihad against states where shariah does not exist is maintained even by a few Muslims, the rest of the ummah can rest. However, defensive jihad is obligatory upon all individual muslims.
From Sahih Bukhari, and Sahih Muslim, we get to know that Muhammad married 6yr old Aisha and had sex with her when she was 9, massacred a Jewish tribe, sanctioned the killing of those who left the religion, and sanctioned amputation of limbs for petty crimes.
Now, lets be realistic, I suppose many political even religious leaders might indulge in such behavior in that age. But since Muhammad is considered uswa hasan (the best man), al insan al-kamil (model for all mankind), his actions can be directly translated to the modern world by the believers.
This of course does not mean that all muslims would conscientiously condone such things. Infact im sure most will abhor it. But the fact remains, that IN THEORY ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION OF PEACE. The fact remains that since believers are so busy defending the IMAGE of the religion instead of reforming it, they provide de-facto cover for the jihadis who are a small fraction. The Roman Church was forced to reform and that conflict was bloody.
And Mr. Deshmukh, since you claim to know so much about the Dhimma, let us discuss this matter further.
1) Heard of the zunnar? (think star-of-david armbands for jews in warsaw ghetto)… It was a yellow belt to be worn by non-muslims in an islamic state to identify themselves as DHIMMIS.
According to the sanctioned laws of the Dhimma, the Ahl-al-dhimma (People of the contract…roughly) have to bow their heads when muslims pass by. They cannot reconstruct their places of worship if they are destroyed. If the dhimmis blaspheme against the religion or the Prophet, then the islamic state has impunity in leaving the dhimmis to the fate of violent mobs who will claim retribution agains the blasphemy as the Dhimmi or the contract for security will be considered annulled.
You are either a propagandist, or the usual nice misguided lied-to sitting duck.
I can already preempt most of your questions that might follow. For a start lets see….I dont know Arabic?? Im quoting things out of context, perhaps? The wars and persecution were thing of the past or false?
But I refuse to answer such contentions here, they have been answered many times and common sense can guide you to these answers themselves without even researching based on one of the points i made (think uswa hassan).
Good night, and good luck
*puff*
@ Tushar:
I’m just at a loss for words……any abjective would just be an understatement.
BRILLIANT !!! Absolutely BRILLIANT !!!
@ tushar
i love all the questions u preempt!
Shan, believe me, every time I wanted to write something on the current post, all my points of view are echoed in your comments. And you articulated it so brilliantly that I perhaps could not do. In an earlier post, titled “One down and a million to go”, written in the wake of the terrorist bombing in Delhi last October, GB expressed similar sentiments as in here, but in a rather very jingoist and violent manner — something which is usually a characteristic of the terrorists themselves. In this article, the language is perhaps more sanitized; however, the underlying leitmotiv is more or less the same as before and is not hard to dig them out from the jungle of sarcastic remarks.
Let me chorus with Shan that “trying to understand the motivations†of the terrorists should not be interpreted as aligning with them. This is again misleading to compare the complex issue of terrorism of today with child-molestation and sexual abuses against women; however, all of them are condemnable in no ambiguous terms. If we are really very sincere to eradicate terrorism from the soil of India, if we do not want to let the opportunist politicians, the radical religious leaders exploit this crisis for their own benefits, we now need to follow a more scientific approach and try to get to the root of the problem no matter how much embarrassing it may be to a particular political party or an individual. The politics in this subcontinent is driven by the egos of individuals, not to mention how much unprincipled it is (nothing can be more heinous than trying to make political advantages of the sufferings of people due to terrorism). Another violent predisposition in Indian politics is to achieve short term gains even when they conflict with the long term ones. To ensure such objectives, the rule is: I can be safe and sound even if I make a mistake, but I am instantly dead if I admit my mistake. Such tendency among the politicians is attributed to the widespread illiteracy, lack of awareness of the majority of the population, among many other secondary factors such as social inequity, poverty etc.
Therefore, it is important to understand the elements that actually drive a terrorist? Why they are so easy target for radicalization? Where from they gather the intense moral force so much as to sacrifice their own lives? Playing down these basic realities in one’s own interest, just making laws to kill the terrorist, to bring out rathajatra to create a false sense of patriotism, may put the problem in suspended animation for a short while but is bound to resurface sooner or later with impetus twice as before. I admit that such solution is difficult to implement. A unique factor that adds to the difficulty in containing terrorism here is the heterogeneous religious fabric of the subcontinent. But intentionally providing a simple but wrong solution for a bigger problem like terrorism may save a particular political party from sinking into coma, but cannot save the common man to be blown by the next bomb.
Glad to see that you are finally on the right path. Welcome home comrade! There are some omissions and mistakes, but those are to be expected from a recovering rightist lesbian-loving bourgeoisie Hindu fanatic. As a veteran secular intellectual with impeccable credentials, it’s my din to help you out here.
1) Whenever you are talking about Kashmir, you must say that the army is involved in terrorism supported by a fascist state. I understand that initially it might be hard for you to see how India, whose existence as a legitimate nation-state you must otherwise vehemently deny, could be a powerful and brutal fascist dictatorship at the same time. Trust me, it makes perfect sense.
2) You are not supposed to write about terrorism in India without mentioning Modi and Thackeray at least sixteen times. Poor Ghori was so incited by their hate- mongering that he had to invade India seven times to search for them. He was so offended that it took him a while to figure out that he was a bit early. Then of course he recovered, consulted with Al-Birani, Al-Jabr and Al-Khwarizmi and built a time machine. Those Arabs knew their science and tech in the middle ages.
If you are still harboring a soft corner for those two terrorists, you can always cleverly say state sponsored pogrom in Gujrat without naming names. Trust me, even the stupid kafers get that hint.
3) Never say “Victims”. What victims ? Don’t you know those stupid Hindus have caste system and untouchability? All those people are so oppressed. Their lives are not worth living, that’s why they believe in after-life and rebirth. The freedom fighters (this is a phrase you must remember) are just giving those low-caste untouchables an opportunity to be reborn in a Muslim family in a classless casteless Dar-ul-Islam. Even if they are unfortunately reborn as Hindu, they will be caught young and recruited for Afghan training camps. The AshRafs have been manfully executing their din in India for so long that we, the true seculars, must be grateful and should keep passing on the lubes.
4) In the politburo, we have been discussing if we can classify jihad as a legitimate Marxist proletariat revolution. We haven’t got the green – I mean red – signal yet. Allah willing, very soon you will have the approval to rationalize jihad in the dialectics of class struggle. I will keep you updated.
Hahaha. Oh, man…dipanjan, absolutely brilliant. Especially the part about the ‘class struggle.’ It seems totally amazing to me how people can be so hypocritical to fit into the marxist straightjacket even after overwhelming evidence of its failure. It’s like covering your eyes when emerging into the light. Everything must be rotten outside …for the cave is all that exists!
@Dipanjan: For a while, I was stunned by your comments so much that I did not know whether I agreed or disagreed with you. As I recover from the blast I gradually find your comment supremely sarcastic, highly nuanced and a fitting reply to the current post which, as usual, served right wing views and attempetd to justify it in curbing terrorism.
@Tushar: I wish you understood sarcasm.
Akash, I fail to comprehend your sarcasm over my unsarcastic reply to Dipanjan’s sarcastic comment.
Ok, I’ll try to be slow, please be with me…..here goes… “I GET ITTTTTTTTT”.
Thank you for your patience.
,,l
Tushar
I know u’ve been Mistreated in Saudi n I know abt that stuff happening. I never advocated S.A. in any way. All I said was since its the birth place of Islam, I learnt It in unadulterated. Beleive me the stuff they do there is bad, n I know lots of this cases n its not just the non-muslims, its the non-arabs too. I guess I’ve been wrong. As i much as i say in defence of my religion, there will be people who countereact, fuelled by the bad experience they’ve had with muslims. I’m sure ur anger is justified, depending on what happened with u. I won’t answer ur question becos this thing will go on n on. We understanding people r here to condemn these inhuman acts not to quarell with each other. I never wanted to glorify my religion here, if it has made some of u uncomfortable. All I wanted to say was we shud differentiate between individuals, communities n the ideals of the community. The biggest massacre against a religious community has been the Holocaust, but people have accepted Hitler as followers as pple behind it, not a bunch of Christians. This IS a bad time for the muslim comunity, and it is at this time that we sud all develop an understanding of each other. I always ask my Hindu friends to tell me abt their religion, so that i develop an understanding of it. But thats their religion, this is mine, and i have no right to compare. If some person is bad with me I don care what he is, a muslim or whtvr, he’s just bad. I don’t want anyone to retaliate against the stuff i said here, i dont want this continuing. I only want u, Tushar, to reply. And speak frm ur heart, my Indian Brother, my Human Brother, what u think of my message.
Yourfan2, touched a nerve did I? You are the one who wants to equate Islam with terrorism under the guise of being objective, not I. And where di you get the idea that I was soft on terrorists? Terrorists should be obliterated, and I agree completely. Where’s the debate there?
Lemme give you a simple lesson in syllogisms which seems to have passed you by in your math class. All Xs are Ys does not mean that All Ys are Xs. All it means that Some Ys are Xs. Therefore even if it were true that all terrorists are Muslims (which it is not; I can think of some Jewish, American, and yes, Hindu ones as well – think Dara Singh and Graham Staines), it DOES not follow that all Muslims are terrorists. So excoriating Islam as a response to the Benaras blasts is plain childish, visceral, and illogical.
You say Arnab is just saying that everyone thinks but are afraid to say. Well, all I can say is, again that is demonstrably untrue because many people in this blog seem to disagree with you. And I am still not surr Arnab is willing to go out on that limb and actually say that Isman is synonymous with terrorism.
My beef with Arnab is his equating terrorism with minority appeasement. What is the link? I am not clear about that. Do mercenary politicians wanting to give job reservations to Muslims enourage terrorism? I would think the opposite, no?
Terrorists belong to a different religion entirely, and yes in my book Togadia, Bal Thackeray, and Vinay Katiyal belong to that religions as well.
There is nothing to glorify in Islam. All that Tushahr said is true. In theory, Islam is a bloodthirsty religion. In practice it is even more bloodthirsty. But then it is not just Islam. All religions are filled with shitty stuffs. But the thing is the majority of the people in other religions have moved on. They are not hung up on those shitty things (sadly, some still are). Where as majority of the Muslims refuse to move on and want to cling on to 500 odd year old traditions and practices and hence are unable to live in a multi-religious society. At least the perception in the rest of the world is that if most of the Muslims are whole-heartedly opposed to terrorism, how come most of the terrorists are Muslims? If this perception is incorrect, it is the duty of Muslim community to dispel it. And I can tell you, that is not happening.
Look at the following and you will know what I mean when I say they refuse to move on.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4746480.stm
What a hard hitting post..the current political scenario deserves it. We as a nation will remain soft targets for Terrorism until we hit back where it hurts. Israel has learnt to successfully survive this onslaught. There can be no denying that the concrete wall along the West Bank has stopped the wave of suicide attacks againsts it. Similarly, Bush has been successful in preventing Al-Quaeda from attacking US. It is clear that in almost all recent terrorist attacks, the initiation and impetus has come from across the border. Until we excercise our option to strike in Self-defence, such instances are likely to be repeated.
What is sickening though is the response from across our collective political & social spectrum.. After the Varanasi Blasts, it was painful to watch the anguish in Ustad Bismillah’s voice and the clearly fearful faces of Muslim brethen in Varanasi. Equally shameful was the response of L.K.Advani to mount his Rath again.
The muslim intelligensia’s reaction too left much to be desired. Their silence at this juncture echoes loudly. Why can’t the Mullahs(who love to issue meaningless Fatwas like Sanias dresscode, at drop of a hat) come together and issue fatwas againsts LeT & ISI.
@yourfan2 and Tushar
You guys have simply put it perfectly. And I see Shan, Akash, Muhammed are now simply stunned. They are struggling for words, bluffing; but not answering questions raised by you.
For all these Shan, Akash, Muhammed – simply answer in YES OR NO to following questions.
1) From Sahih Bukhari, and Sahih Muslim, we get to know that Muhammad married 6yr old Aisha and had sex with her when she was 9, massacred a Jewish tribe, sanctioned the killing of those who left the religion, and sanctioned amputation of limbs for petty crimes.Is this true?
2) But the fact remains, that IN THEORY ISLAM IS NOT A RELIGION OF PEACE. The fact remains that since believers are so busy defending the IMAGE of the religion instead of REFORMING it, they provide de-facto cover for the jihadis who are a small fraction.Isn’t this correct?
GreatBong. Salaam Namaste 🙂
I didnt mean to point fingers at you. My coments were after reading your post & the comments. As you would have observed earlier I do read your posts and the comments too because its not only the post that drags me to your blog but the comments too. Opinions of your other esteemed readers do matter as they throw in a different angle which is good in any discussion.
Aplogies if you thought my comment was directed towards you.
BTW, is it possible to have a discussion forum in your blog? It would be great to have real-time discussion.
Shan,
You said,
“Yourfan2, touched a nerve did I? You are the one who wants to equate Islam with terrorism under the guise of being objective, not I. And where di you get the idea that I was soft on terrorists? Terrorists should be obliterated, and I agree completely. Where’s the debate there?Lemme give you a simple lesson in syllogisms which seems to have passed you by in your math class. All Xs are Ys does not mean that All Ys are Xs. All it means that Some Ys are Xs. Therefore even if it were true that all terrorists are Muslims (which it is not; I can think of some Jewish, American, and yes, Hindu ones as well – think Dara Singh and Graham Staines), it DOES not follow that all Muslims are terrorists. ”
OK . Thanks for your logic lesson. But may I give you another lesson in logic, maybe a bit more advanced. We say that a sequence of events holds infinitely often if it is true for infinitely many n. eg, if its true whenever n is even then the logic holds, regardless of what happens when n is odd. Same here. There has been so many cases of Islam induced cases of terrorism worldwide that Id stick my neck out and say that it happens infinitely often. And by doing so, Im in no way thinking of what about the innocent muslims. In statistical parlance, if the null hypothesis of the test is, say H0: ” There is a direct link between Islam (or interpreted Islam) and terrorism”. So based on a study of terrorism events worldwide there is simple not enough evidence to reject the null hypothesis. Mind you its for the sample only. Yes in the larger population, there may be good people like Mr Muhammad, but Id restrict myself to the study at hand.
Never did I say that all muslims are terrorists. But you are deliberately hammering that point home in order to strengthen your vacuous argument.
“So excoriating Islam as a response to the Benaras blasts is plain childish, visceral, and illogical.””
And always steering clear of the same thing but taking every opportunity to blame Hindu fundamentalists is plain pussilanimity, playing-it-safe, putting on your best secular coat when you heart says otherwise and ahem..illogical.
“You say Arnab is just saying that everyone thinks but are afraid to say. Well, all I can say is, again that is demonstrably untrue because many people in this blog seem to disagree with you. And I am still not surr Arnab is willing to go out on that limb and actually say that Isman is synonymous with terrorism.”
Umm..well i am not blind you know. In fact if my eyes are correct then most people on this post seem to agree with me wheather directly or indirectly. At the risk of sounding insufferable, I will also say that you are playing a nice game here. You are saying, Arnab you are correct, but your readers are maligning your preachings just like some radical Islamists do and spreading hatred. This may cut ice with Arnab, but Im also still not sure if Arnab will go out on a limb and say that what you are saying has merit. Actually, my dear friend, if you unlearn a bit of your earlier pseudo-secular learnings and look at the above comments by people like Dev, Subhendu etc, with an unprejudiced eye, you will find that they actually make a lot of sense.
“My beef with Arnab is his equating terrorism with minority appeasement. What is the link? I am not clear about that. Do mercenary politicians wanting to give job reservations to Muslims enourage terrorism? I would think the opposite, no?”
There is a a definite link. in order to appease minorities, several things are condoned for which the nation is paying. For example, the government should immediately come down like a ton of bricks on madrasas spreading hatred, and any militant group should be dealt with severely, like Israel does. And why has that minister who offered a sum on the head of the Danish cartoonist not behind bars? You see the link. I definitely do. If this post was about castigating the right wing VHP, you would have said its correct. But any Tom Dick and Harry can do that. It takes immense guts to write a post like this. But any Hindu writting on the plainly obvious things like Arnab does in this post, or any supported voice is cooly construed as being communal. If you look with harsh cold logic, they are both 2 faces of the same coin.
Finally my response to you was because you starting casting doubts on the secular credentials of the commentators here. Dude, this blog is not taliban land. I respect your voice, but dont do ad-hominem based on my opinions here. As the former Australian captain IM Chappell once said, ” If you dont like what you are hearing (in this case reading), then probably its time to press the mute button”.
Tushar,
Thank you so very much. You have no idea how glad I was to read your comments. You see, people like me have not personally read the Quran. So what if my sister has done her PhD in medieval history? So what if her thesis specifically dealt with Quran and Guru Granth Sahib, which she had to read? So what if she has told me pretty much everything you mentioned and some? Had I commented on Quran, I would surely have been questioned whether I had read it myself. And the answer would have been “noâ€. And, “sister said so†seemed childish. So thanks for taking the time and writing your comments.
It is high time that the muslim community of the world get their heads out of their asses and do something meaningful and tangible to prove that they are indeed in favor of peace and tolerance. An occasional “we do not condone this†is not going to cut it. Because, you know what? Except for a few (actually there are many) pseudo-intellectual, so called seculars suffering from verbal diarrhea, who have no clue about what points they are trying to defend, the rest of the world’s opinion about the muslim community is already in the abyss. That’s a fact. Since “Islam is going to rule the world†ain’t going to happen, it is in the interest of the muslim community that they recognize the problem, accept the real issues, reform, lead lives of normal human beings and let others live theirs in peace. Otherwise, the rest of the world is going to keep coming after them. Is that what they want for their next generations? I cannot believe that after all that has happened in the past, this community is still suffering from the elephant in the living room syndrome.
Lastly, just in case there is anybody who did not catch my drift in my previous comment, I do not think Mohammad is an innocent 16 year old who makes his mama proud with his prophetic knowledge of the “pure†Islam and Quran. I think he is just an average muslim joe, trying to use the now stale tactic of diverting the attention from Islamic terrorism to what the non-existent Quran preaches. Like somebody had mentioned before, who the heck cares? It is the reality that matters. So Mohammad, unless you and your muslim brethren clean up your acts of hypocrisy and cunning by continuing in your effort to divert everybody’s attention to irrelevant subjects and not actively do something about the very real problem of Islamic terrorism and the muslim image, the rest of the world, just in order to survive, is left with no choice but to come after the Islamic terrorists with all they have got. Do not blame them then when there are collateral damages. Get it?
@Shan:
As a master of logic you are yourself, I fail to understand why my point is not clear to you despite it being clear to so many others. As yourfan2 pointed out, appeasement of minorities does have a link to terrorism albeit not the example you picked (which you did in order to show how ludicrous others opinions were). Even that was not my point in this post.
My points were:
1. Terrrorists are criminals of the stature of rapists/child molesters. Just like noone is interested in what motivated a man to bury a 6 year old child alive with her teddy bear (the infamous Jessica case), sane people (and I exclude Akash Sen from that) also should not seek to justify their actions by talking about Kashmir or the jock itch in their undies. I hope for the most hideous bloodthirsty punishment for them for snuffing out the lives of innocents. Again this is applicable to both Hindu as well as Islamic terrorists—-in this case since it was Islamic terrorists the focus was on them.
2.True secularism consists of fairness. If Sakhas are illegal, so are Madrasas. I am sick and tired of being called “communal” by people like you when I attempt to be fair. And fairness is not bending backwards for minorities—-even though it may help you get laid or garner brownie points with some attractive female bloggers/readers.
@Ashit: The problem with real-time discussion forums (though intensely appealing) is that on the hosting plan I am on, it will eat up CPU cycles (which are rationed) —I have been told that real-time discussion forums (which are almost like chat) consume a lot of resources—and unless the server is dedicated, I can get into problems with my hosting services (i.e. would have to pay them more).
So for now, lets keep the discussion here. I must say I have throughly enjoyed the discussion which has taken some predictable tangents and I must thank Right, Pranav, DeepThirdMan, Tushar, Muhammed Deshmukh, Shan, Dev, Dharmendra, Debasish and as always yourfan2 for an illuminating discussion. [I hope I didnt forget any of the discussants names]—the fact that we can discuss things freely and fairly is what prevents us from going at each others throats literally. I may or may not agree with your points but the time you have taken to draft long comments is greatly appreciated.
@Dipanjan: Pardon sir. But I didnt get the sarcasm that Akash got and Tushar did not get. But in any case Akash is an advanced human being whose intellectual capabilities mere mortals like me cannot grasp.
@yourfan2: Great to have you back.It is indeed sad that the grammar of the secularist has been dictated to us and I for one feel extremely mortified when I find people barking at my door (blog) calling me “immature”, saying I should drop the “great” from my “greatbong” [not a bad idea actually] and that I should go back to writing about Mithunda when I try to be as neutral as possible. I do not believe in God or in organized religion in any form. A long time when the Shankaracharya was arrested, I posted on my blog that I fully support him being dragged away in chains—because his supposed religions position of eminence should not be considered by the law in the way they arrest him. However I know that reflecting the same logic on other issues immediately gets me intro trouble.
oh sorry,should have responded earlier.
first of all,Mr. Right probably has not understood my line of argument.I never said Varanasi was a backlash of Hindu fundamentalism,I just said his arguments are as futile as the people who say that.
In the next post also,he goes on ranting,they started it, not we.That like the chicken came first or the egg!!!
and dear deep third man,
“But it’s stupid Hindus who talk like them–that’s what makes me mad.”
I do not understand why everybody has to take sides.and I am speaking not as a Hindu or as a Muslim,simply as a human being. and if some Hindu fundamentalists go on rampaging in the streets,I cannot decry that just because I am Hindu,that is ridiculous.
and Hindu zealots use only stones and sticks.thats funny ROTFL
One song to bring them all in; And let the music bind you all, and never shall you feel hate again.
All.
Tushar,
Your comment was most informative. I would follow up with all the books you have mentioned and learn more about this Religion of Peace.
Thanks.
Imagine there’s no heaven,Its easy if you try,No hell below us,Above us only sky…
Imagine all the people, living for today…
You may say, I am a dreamer But I am not the only oneI hope someday you will join us And the world will live as one.
“Imagine” – John Lennon
Pankaj
I hope you find out that it really IS a religion of peace. Because if you dont, there may be a bounty on your head!
Arnab and Remarking Folks,
I feel the posts are circling around two issues: first, secularism; and, second, the nature of ‘Islam’. Of course, these two issues involve more than two actors; they involve the Islamic community, individuals within that community, the role of the state with regards to the former and latter aspect, as well as the role of ‘others’ within the state.
Now, there is a lot of heat with little light in most of the comments. What Arnab has stated is a bit more nuanced than perceived: it’s not Islamic people, but the projection of Islam and its relationship with the Indian state and politics.
I agree with the folks who have said that it matters little as to what is written in the Koran, the Bible, the Gita or the Zendavesta; what matters are the actual practices of its followers. There can be religions of the book, but none by the book: so the religion is what its followers actually do.
And, what have the vast majority of the Islamic community at large done that is unethical and evil? Nothing, really. The LTTE is deeply associated with the Hindu-Buddhist divide in Sri Lanka. The Jews sponsored terrorism against the British and other Arabs in erstwhile Palestine in the ’20s and ’30s. The Christians have a terrible record: the Shabra-Shatila (excuse the spelling) massacre conducted by the Maronite militia in Lebanon; the butchering that Serbian forces undertook in the Balkans, which the European states sat around and watched until the US stepped in; and, finally, the regular anti-Jewish pogroms that litter the history of Eastern Europe. Which religion’s hands have not shed innocent blood?
Yet, it is not a particular religion that is at stake. It is the fate of millions of Muslims around the world. Human beings, people with our dreams and ambitions, are caught between a repressive secular authoritarian state (Egypt, Tunisia, Algeria, Syria to only name a few) and the atavistic rebellion of the fundamentalists. In India, this problem has been solved to a large extent because democracy and a relatively open society allow the Muslim individual to shed the cloak of community. Now, there are problems still that affect our state structure and political system. These need addressing and resolution. In Kashmir, democracy was never allowed to flourish. The National Conference, in its many avatars, rigged and manipulated the political system from ’47 to ’77. Then there were two free and fair elections: ’77 and ’83. And, again, Rajiv Gandhi undermined the democratic process to reinstall the National Conference. Why was this allowed? The idea was that as long as the local Muslim leadership did not want to leave India they could stay in power. Was this democracy?
As I indicated earlier, just getting the BSF and the Army to impose law and order does not solve the problems. History works in ways that undermine the use of brute power, as the collapse of the USSR and its Communist client regimes’ indicate. As a side bar, Assamese Mullahs settled in Kashmir after the 1983 attacks on the Bangladeshi illegal immigrants in that state; they were instrumental in spreading discontent within Kashmir. The Mullahs were not immigrants, but Indian citizens. Second, India’s hobnobbing with Arafat (a terrorist if there was any) allowed Palestinian students to study in academies in Kashmir; they spread word about the logic and tactics of fighting against an occupying force. So, here we are, the failures of democracy, the political chicanery of the state and its representatives, whether within the PLO administered areas or the organization itself, or within our state of Kashmir, today provides explosive pressure cookers at the Hanuman Temple.
@Akash Sen said – Therefore, it is important to understand the elements that actually drive a terrorist? Why they are so easy target for radicalization? Where from they gather the intense moral force so much as to sacrifice their own lives?
Don’t you think people already have given thought to this? This is a real serious global problem, hence in fact people, scholars have given tremendous thought to this problem.
Let us consider – What could be the reason? Poverty? – well, poverty exists in many parts of the world. Then why only certain people of certain faith turn into terrorists….. Unemployment – Again same answer. These problems exist in greater scale in Africa and some other parts of the world. Could oppression of Islam by other religions be a reason? – But then islam also has oppressed (more cruelly) people of other religions. Then why not they have turned into ghouls killing innocent people?
More and more I think, I get to the same answer that reason lies in islam itself. All religions teach to live peacefully with people of other faith. But only islam tells them to go on war (unnecessarily) with infidels. There lies the real problem.
There is need from muslim people to introspect and implement necessary reforms in their 500 year old religion. All other religions have gone through these reforms, hence this maturity.
@ Vasabjit: Admirable effort, but no thanks. It’s nobody’s responsibility to “let democracy flourish” in a population of infiltrants. If you could reinstate every Kashmiri Pandit in his ancestral land and then talk about free and fair elections, that would make sense. But that sort of cleansing operation hurts the nancy boy intellectuals too much.
So strict law and order is no answer to religious intolerance ? Well, the Chinese way of dealing with “Islamic special treatment issues” tends to indicate otherwise.
Ok, it all started with Varanasi bomb blast and here we are arguing at this point about Islam and secularism!! It is probably beyond me.
I have this basic question have we officially already established that the islam fundamentalists are behind the blast? Any body? I don’t know.
So all these discussions around the blast and pointing fingers are on conjectures huh! before you guys say well lashker-e-tayeb has claimed it as their acts… give me a break! are we so naive that we believing them? Is it not a proven tactic by terriost group to ride on such a success? Just questioning.
Great Bong and the rest: Do you have any inkling of what marginalization is and its impact? It is a proven fact that the powerful and privileged pay less attention to the powerless and I can see that in you guys. Some made comments about Maoists and how SC/ST and backward people are advantaged in India. You must be joking!! well, coming out with opinions sticking your ass in your down feathered sofa in an a/c room is no better than those politicians…
Great Bong: it will be an innane conversation to place a counter argument for your juvenile logic if rapists could be killed why couldn’t terriosts be…. well, capital punishment for rapists itself is a controversy.
terrorist cleansing is one possibility but root cause analysis will tell you that the problem is elsehere. marginalization with overlay of oppression are potential causes for these people to tread a different path. It is a thin line between terrorism and fighting for rights. So it is a complex process (that’s a no brainer) and it should be dealt with deft hands (clearly not you and me). Does that mean I am showing a cold shoulder for the brutal murders for those innocent people who died in the blast. Absolutely not. does such an dastardly act make me angry. Very much. So what could be done? I think we need to really have a concerted peace effort to get to the bottom of this. Is it sissy… maybe. Is it worth a try YES!! Restorative justice world over (read SA history) proved far better than retributive justice. well, Greatbong you must know about all these. But I’m repeating for the sake of placing my argument.
I don’t really understand sarcasm for such a sensitive issue (I lost it long back, too bad.) But I shudder to read and think that there is so much inter communal mindlessness amongst us. It bothers me and saddens me equally.
@Rapti: Glad to see one more terrorist apologist among us with his/her infantile arguments which if you will excuse me I do not even find worth responding to. My sincerest apologies since I have tangoed with too many halfwits like you. You must excuse me of the use of the word “halfwit” but by calling my argument “infantile” you have opened yourself upto “attack” words. Your words of liberalism and understanding have made me week in the knees and I have hung my head in shame. Happy? No go on with your life.
Attack is often the best form defense Great Bong! personal attack is a form of distraction which is what all “overly clever” people like you resort to when you are cornered. You don’t have to waste space in this vapor air to respond because your neurons don’t fire as fast. Carry on self proclaimed demented mind…
“it is a complex process” he he….
Reminds me of “Analyze That”- “I’m greaving…it’s a process.”
Rapti,
Concerted peace effort among who? Could you be kind enough to point out the entities who need to sit together and start the process? I know now that peace with terrorists is good and killing terrorists is bad. Now that that part is out of the way, who are these people who need to sit together and “talk”? Once we get that info from you then we can start. What says you?
It will be a different story though when we return from the peace talks, the family/friend/clans of the people who were killed by the terrorists now might be so pissed after being handed the wrong end of the rope that they would have already formed their own sweet little terrorist group and start killing the families of the terrorists of today. But then again, by applying your method of resolving the issue, we will then have the peace talks with those folks (and mind you, we would already have saved time due to the robust design of the process… because we now already know who those folks are with whom we need to have our peace talks!). And that’s how we will live happily ever after. I get it now!!!
You are a genious!!! You solved the problem that nobody has been able to solve yet. Just one thing when you give a speech after receiving the Nobel peace prize please mention my name since I was the first to appreciate your method. Thank you for the opportunity.
@Rapti: Its people like you who attack first. I am sure your neurons fire fast Rapti—I am no match for you. I am sorry if you dont have a life—I understand. Incidentally see how you forgot that it is you who started the personal attack—but then you are also a clever person right?
Arnab,
Intellectually you are not there yet to appreciate Rapti’s methods. I for one am a step ahead of you in that field. Please read my response for your education and try to understand it. It is the eureka! solution.
Considering that the biggest terrorist in the world Yasser Arafat got the Nobel Prize, I think it is rather apposite.
I just wish that people like Rapti can tell Mohit’s parents in the face their message of understanding. [Mohit is a beautiful child in coma thanks to some misunderstood, marginalized people. Here is his picture.]
Actually Rapti said two things that might have been profound:
That’s true, you are a powerless blogger writing away. Do you think any politician in India reads Greatbong. Nah. Should they? Most definitely.
Also, Rapti wrote;
Maybe a typo, maybe not.
I’m not at all surprised by our scholar Mr. Deshmukh. As I expected he has completely avoided answering my questions pertaining to Islamic scriptural sources. Yes, personal bias I may harbor due to my mistreatment. But let’s analyse your statements. You said that these things happen and then you go on to RESTATE that “pure Islam” exists in Saudi. So, by logical extrapolation, treating minorities like shit is ‘pure islam’, correct? That’s my point exactly. Re-read my points about Al Dhimma (security contract). Any decent dignified human being could not find such an arrangement “tolerant.” yet this is what jihadis and their sweet speakers disseminate to infidels everyday. I’ve learnt to suspect people like Akash who write/say so much and yet say so little in their rhetorical verbiage which is full of crap. So spare me your verbal diarrhoea and let’s argue some hard facts, sir.
To Mr Vasabjit Bannerjee, you are indulging in common fallacy. LTTE, Basque, ETA, Jewish terrorists do not exist/never did exist on a global scale with diversified groups claiming similar goals (re-establishment of the Caliphate, continuing the jihad through the Khalifah, instituting Shariah all over the globe, etc etc). From Abu Sayyaf in Philippines to Lashkar e Taiba in Pakistan to Al Qaeda to Hamas to Islamic Jihad to Hezbollah and etc etc etc etc have all stated their goals clearly. Why do we not take them seriously? If I state tomorrow publicly that I want to kill someone, is it wise to rationalise my behavior as needing understanding and compassion and being quoted ‘out of context’ and claiming i was oppressed and hence should be sympathized with?
I apologize as I had not addressed your point fully. To claim that ‘secular authoritarian’ repression in Syria et all causes this is again a big fallacy. That is what great Dubya thought and look at such peaceful people being brough to power by the vote (IRaq, Palestinian Authority). Even in ‘moderate’ Jordan, the lovely peaceful people only spoke out against the jihadis because they had killed muslims in a muslim country. Even their banners said so. WHat part of this eludes you to your rationalization? Even in New York City while I was travelling in a Syrian cab, the guy thought it was okay to kill the Danish cartoonists but innocent people must not be harmed. How do we know how prevalent this sort of thinking is? I for one do not want to quantify. I do not also feel the need to establish a mockery of ‘credentials’ in secularism or any such straightjacketed nonsense. For all those who will doubtless start their rhetoric painting me as a genocidal warmonger hell bent on nuking Mecca, I say go on…because that is the only thing you can do. Discredit me for my supposed fascism when you cannot counter hard facts. Intelligent people will separate the grain from the chaff and see who is right.
Debashish: exactly the entities that you are planning to arrest and kill. No, I did not quite yet found the process to resolve the problem. Like every one I am trying to…. from certain process which were successful elsewhere…. which are being replicated or tried in other parts of the world. So I am not as excited as you are about my prospect of getting the Nobel peace prize. But thak you anyways.
Great Bong: Again, I do not propose to say to Mohit’s parents that you son is in coma because of some misunderstood, marginalized person; please I have no intention of playing with peoples’ deep sense of loss. So don’t quote on me that. Since you also made me realize that I don’t have a life (I believe answering blogs means no life) I would try to get one by refraining from writing in the blog. since this is my one last chance pardon my rather longish repply.
Micheal H: I thought I am clear when I wrote about powerful and powerless dynamic but I guess I am wrong. I meant privileged and powerful people in the society.
Problem is elsewhere is not a typo. The problem is situation and circumstances make people what they are today. So rather than personifying the problem “you terrorists are the problem” it may be worthwhile to see the conditions that make terrorist a terrorist.
Yes, indeed Rapti. Let’s analyse what makes jihadis jihadis. In modern life people are bound to feel marginalized, cheated or just plain unlucky or deserving of death. That is how it works. And yes this can be exploited for gains. Nobody here is arguing about that. Let’s now walk on this path not walked on by secular elites. What makes a 30 something investment banker from Wall Street commit suicide? What about Mike Hawash (Google him for you curious cats out there) who worked at Intel and earned 360K per year in California? He became a jihadi.
So yes, indeed societal misfortunate and marginalization are conditions that influence this, but why do only believers in this particular ideology RESPOND to that marginalization by blowing themselves up? The mullahs have 1400 years of experience of expounding fake victimhood upon the people and inciting them to violence. This tradition has been passed on straight from the Prophet for whom simply lands in which “Allah alone was worshipped” were not to be harmed in any way. (Qur’an, Sahih Bukhari). You must realise that the mullahs can claim victimhood for the marginalized decent muslims and then quote the Qur’an and Mohammads own actions to guide them to kill kaafirs. And in the end we always hear from the family of this estranged fidayeen that they are “shocked, horrified” that such an “intelligent bright sweeet child” could turn to “terrorism”.
All these canards of yours have been repeatedly expounded ad nauseam. Its time for hard facts.
Tushar – nobody argues that present-day Islam is a factor for terrorists and that the terrorist acts are carried out in the name of Islam. I for one, don’t give a damn on whether this is line with what the ‘true’ Islam preaches.
So, good – you have proved that Islam is a ‘bad’ religon. What do you propose the politicians do about it. Should we ban the practice of Islam? Prohibit the printing of Qorans and turn Mosques into libraries.
Considering there are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world and over 130 million in India, thats not really a *practical* choice. You and GreatBong seem to think that better ‘law enforcement’ is the answer. Let us treat Terrorists like Rapists and Murderers you say.
Fine – absolutely no problem with that. Unfortunatly the real problem is there are dozens of rapes and murders *every day* in any large country – a lot, lot more frequent than any terrorist acts. Not to mention the fact that terrorists srike very frequently against ‘hard’ targets like Isreal, Pakistan and the U.S Army.
Everyone would infact be horrified if terrorism become as frequent as rape. So doesnt it seem reasonable to think that some kind of political or social solution may be required in ADDITION to all the law enforcement/military strategies that you can think off. Or does simply mentioning this make me a Islamo-terrorist-loving liberal.
Yes, AndyS, you have asked million dollar question. After proving that current interpretaion of islam is bad; what should we do?
Answer lies in history. Muslims should just follow what their fellow brothers have done. Implement reforms pertaining to current age into the islam and make it a real peace-loving religion. There were some flaws in christianity, judaism, hinduism and all others. But people made changes in the way religion is implemented and that’s it!Just accept the facts and follow in brother. We are there to help you. But, first you must remove blinds from your eyes, only then.
My Dear GB,
After all the fights and the bloodshed , I am venturing to mollycoddle you 🙂 so that you dont become a terrorsist after so many people hurt you and misunderstood (sic) you.
More seriously, this is a comment of appreciation. This was a seminal blog-post and a powerful and moving one. Yes you have had many marvellous posts,maybe even better then this one, but there is something very powerful about this post. It have read it no less than 5 times now, and each time it seemed equally brilliant. I started from random paragraphs and even read it it from bottom to top. Indeed the topography of this post is quite like the rugged mountains of Afghanistan where OBL purportedly lives and one has to watch out for mines and booby traps. The rugged landscape made the journey through your post like a never ending roller coaster. When I finally reached the end of your post, I reached out for my Vodka bottle and had a big gulp. The whole experience lasted only about 4 minutes, but it had seemed like an eternity.
Yet at one time, I felt as if I was watching the beautiful Niagra falls on a clear day under innumerable rainbows. And then suddenly, a shooting star came from nowhere and disrupted the tranquil surroundings.
That was these memorable lines:
“However, I have ceased to make such fine distinctions –distinctions which I have realized stem from my “immaturityâ€. For which I have been adviced repeteadly to stick to writing about Mithun-da and Bhappi-da and not write on politics—which is exclusively the prerogative of advanced, exalted beings.
But you see, I want to be a big boy now. For which I am going to hold “mature†opinions—-i.e. I am going to stick my ass up and say “Come on do your best. I have sinned.†What the sin is I have no idea—I guess I will find out in heaven. Or hell.
Yes I have learnt the mature language. Terrorists have human rights. Victims dont. Victims deserve to get their brains blown over everywhere. Terrorists dont—they deserve biriyani. While it is considered “mature†to wish the death penalty for “rapistsâ€, (because “mature†people never want to say anything that may offend women—oh no how else would they get laid—after all “sensitive men†are always at an advantage in this regard) it is not so for terrorists.”
It will take many years, many reviews to fathom the power concealed in these words. They say that the pen is mightier than the sword, but this was like 10,000 nuclear bombs exploding in unison.
This post of yours is a bit like Lady Chatterley’s Lover by D H Lawrence , controversial but which will surely find the future lauding it in hindsight ; and like Lawrence himself , you are a man much ahead of his time.
But there lies a hidden tale behind all these. To the casual reader , this post is plain humourous or controverisal at best; to the one with the jaundiced it, its plain outragous and to the admirirer, its sheer delight. To the fan , however its post born out of anger at the event on which it is based coupled with the inconspicous but tangible emotion of being misunderstood time and time again. As a research scientist , PHD and a family man, you have your hands full with many different kinds of jobs. But as this fan understands, you write this blog to manifest your many suppressed feeling. It also gives you a medium to harness your fine writing skills and as a way of unwinding. But there is a difference between many other bloggers and you. Many write to get noticed or gain visibility in the mainstream media. The reader is not their prerogative, visibility is. By provided unmoderated comments , you have proved that you care for your readers and hear their voice. Which is why there are as many people here for commenting or reading other comments as reading your posts.
But with exponentially increasing popularity in the last year , a new website and many other technical things like WordPress which this fool is completely ignorant of, you have inadvertently put on some extra baggage on yourself. Thats what I feel. So when a reader dismisses your efforts by saying,” man dont write on politics or Ganguly”, it is bound to affect your thinking.” Am I doing something wrong? “you may ask yourself from time to time. The comments for your posts range from one extreme to another, with constructive criticism few and far between. Yet I have always admired the way you have taken every comment in your stride and moved on. Yes GB, you just picked up the pieces and moved on like you did in every single thing of your life. Being under the kind of spotlight that you have never been before, there have been times when you grew a bit peeved, understandably. But you have never ever let that affect the quality of your posts.
I would like to add my 2 cents on what you write here. The simple basic fact is that you cannot pander to each and every constituency. You write some post today which Another Indian applauds…. someone else like say a DeepThirdman may not like it. So how many groups are you going to satisfy? How many people in each subgroup? Not possible. So write like theres no tomorrow. In your conscious mind you know very well that you are not trying to hurt anyone by your posts. Sometimes bluntness is misconstrued as bravado , but its very unfortunate. But I would like to attract your biggest critic’s attention and tell him ” See he cares for you. For you and your views. ” I bet even he/she would appereciate it.
On a personal front, some of your writings have affected me in such a way that I think from time to time , ” Why did I not meet this guy when I was in Calcutta. We could have been great friends.” 🙂 So maybe im a bit biased in estimating you? Or maybe not, beacuse I can feel each and every emotional strain in your writings a bit too well?
You also told me in your earlier response” I do not believe in God or in organized religion in any form. ” Me too. I am a Hindu by birth and Ill say this even if it results me in being roasted ten thousand time in hell- I never felt any affinity to God. So this agnostic person never believed in God, but always respected other religious beliefs , and at the same time celebrated religious festivals beacuse to me they are more occasions of celebration of life than celebration of God. On the same token I detest religions or persons which try to proselitize and seek to seize control over your way of thinking. I love proofs and arguments, I have a hard time digesting if something is imposed on me. This includes conservative Brahmins, radical muslims and evangelical Christians alike. My hatred for religious groups which perpetrate terror is therefore an extension of my earlier credos. So if I have to point out to one religious group and say that they have a problem, and you construe me as a communal person, then so be it. I dont want to want to be that kind of a secular person to appease you; as if I appease you, I cheat on myself. I think you share the same views as me. But Id just like to add that I admire religions which are tolerant and open , like Vedic Hindusim and Buddhism.
Finally , Id like to say that if there is one most singularly important thing that you should not change is calling a spade a spade. Too often in the quest for political correctness, there is a huge communication gap between the writer and the reader. And too often, people fed on years of a particular style of political writing may say. ” Thats the way and nothing else. ” But there is Reuters and NYT for that. Greatbong is relatively new but it has already heralded a new tradition. And I like traditions and customs as much as I like change and revolution.
Finally I think that blog writing has been a great education for a person like you who is not a great social person in real life. (remember those ecstacy induced sandwich dances 🙂 ). But via comments you have come to know so many people, study so many minds and characters. I am sure that thgis must have been a great education which has shaped you consciously as well as unconsciously. Id also like to say that many a leading blogger rely on subliminal messages to enhance their blog popularity although Im not sure that their readers are aware of that. But you write for fun and pleasure and there is no hidden agenda in your writings. There is still something old and ameteurish amidst this modern looking template. The cocktail is a heady mix . As a patron, I can only shout and say ” Yeh Dil Mange more”.
To end a comment which is getting dangerously long to incurr your wrath, I d like to say that at the end of a long fought battle in this post where much blood has been spilled, to some you have lost the battle; but to me you have won the war.
Blessed will be the blog meet you attend tomorrow with the presence of whom I consider India’s best blogger. The magnificent 80’s -90’s may have long been gone, but they will always be cherished in the hearts and minds ;and a personification of it will be there in Washington Dc tomorrow in 2006.
Oh, MY GOSH!!! yourfan2 (and Arnab???)!! I needed a double scotch after reading yourfan2’s latest comments!
Mollycoddling Arnab? Niagra Falls/shooting star and Arnab’s lines? D H Lawrence (I will be damned… this one is probably right there with mollycoddling!)?!? 2 “finally”‘s and one “to end”? J F Christ! What the heck is going on here? Actually, no, please do not tell me!! For the most part I am on both your side on this topic but this last post was a classic and I didn’t see it coming!! I can’t wait sharing it with my friends here in NYC!!
🙂
@tushar: In a fit of catharsis, you seemed to have talked so much about your perception of terrorism, but unfortunately forgot to make any clear conclusion on how it can possibly be stopped. Never mind. The readers are intelligent enough to “separate the seed from the chaff†and sympathize with you for being a blindfolded zealot. By the way, I never intended to support the doctrines of Islam let alone glorify them (But I know such attempts will be made to paint me as a patron of Islam or much worse a terrorism apologist). But make no mistake that you can detect foul matters in the edicts of each and every religion. If you had a discerning outlook, you should have evaluated all religions squarely. Ok. Move on.
Citing some stray incidents to prove the cruelty of Islam and branding the incidents as “hard factsâ€, you apparently suggest banning of the Islam or killing of all the Muslims are the only ways to stop Islamic terrorism. In your opinion, the very nature of Islam encourages terrorism and ergo, it exists as a global phenomenon unlike all other kinds of terrorism such as those fuelled by LTTE, ETA-Basque etc. I am appalled that you strongly believe and propagate the idea, by means of your clichéd “hard facts†that the motivation for Islamic terrorism, so to say, is the urge to bring back the Caliphate. First of all, rise up to the “hard fact†that less than one percent of the entire Muslim population support Islamic radicalism. The fact that the Muslims are omnipresent all over the world nullifies your lemma that Islamic terrorism is different from other sorts. This is just the coincidence that the terrorists who are Muslim have outnumbered the others. Secondly, your “Caliphate theory†is something that is usually used by the Hindu fanatics like RSS, VHP zealots to the gullible youth as the main cause for Islamic terrorism in order to brainwash them. This is, in some sense, what is known as militant obscurantism – prevent them by hook or by crook from finding out the real truth lest you may lose control over them. This is also used by the Islamic radicals for similar purposes. I am wondering to which group you belong. I hope the real causes for terrorism are not hard to find out. You have already identified yourself as a “genocidal warmongerâ€, “fascistâ€, someone who wants to “nuke Meccaâ€. Therefore, I cease to accuse you of being those. Thanks.
@rapti: Right on. You very accurately pointed out that writing a sarcastic piece as the current post on an issue, as sensitive and as touchy as terrorism, is distasteful.
Akash,
Are you in utter duress? Is anybody levelling a gun at your head when you write such comments? I might be on the right track. So, why don’t you give us a sign, like fluttering your eye lids twice to give a go ahead to the SWAT team or flutter it once to indicate “stand down”? Though it is you who got to figure out how you are going to do that over a blog. If that is not ironed out, could you please let me know where I can find the kind of joint you have been smoking? After reading these 120 comments, I sure could use one.
Thanking in advance!! Next time I hope to see you baptised to Islam; or whatever equivalence to baptism is involved. By then Mohammad’s method will be official in any case. You got a nice window of opportunity.
Frustratingly hopeless comment by Akash Sen. God, when will these people reply point to point instead of illogical blabbering? I would like to say,God, forgive them because they do not understand what they are doing.
Akash,Rapti- Instead of holding up each other, would you care to visit following site and find some facts about your glorified religion?
http://www.geocities.com/AntiJihad/home.html
@GB: I was merely trying to extend your post and to have some fun out of the political correctness, timidity, defensiveness and hypocrisy of a certain brand of secularism. I think Tushar (and you) got it right. Akash probably interpreted my comment to be sarcastic about the sarcasm in your post, not about the target we share.
My comment was definitely not meant to be a fitting reply to the current post which, as usual, served right wing views and attempetd to justify it in curbing terrorism. Could not disagree more about his take on your post.
@Dipanjan: LOL…now we see how perceptive our famous intellectual is….no wonder he says: “You very accurately pointed out that writing a sarcastic piece as the current post on an issue, as sensitive and as touchy as terrorism, is distasteful”
Distasteful right? Of course it is—he finds it difficult to understand anything other than his done-to-death rhetoric which he repeats regardless of what the post is about.
Whoa Boy Dipanjan, this is awesome. Someone sure shot himself in the foot here. Of course the tragedy is that he himself wont accept that. And whats even worse is that, blinded by his fanaticism to oppose every post I write on politics, he doesnt even realize the fact that he has done so himself.
Arnab: From your responses to certain comments in your archives, you do not consider having a debate such as this one on an online discussion board as one worth your time (neither do I consider it worth mine for that matter). But its interesting to me how this debate took on the characteristics of one that might be seen on a discussion board:
(1) Heated exchanges with any commenter who makes remarks or hints at the less than adequate intellectual faculty of the poster or the one who ‘owns’ the debate (Rapti, in this post). Also, the tone of the debate tends to border on the condescending among some of the debaters. This becomes more prominent in the later stages.
(2) The obvious sense of satisfaction when an ideological opponent in the debate receives a solid punch (Akash-Dipanjan sarcasm issue).
(3) One or more instances of (1) and (2) and the related comments end up being so amusing that it makes the debate much more memorable than its subject alone could ever possibly have : Akash’s take of Dipanjan’s sarcasm here 🙂
What do you think.. of course, not having comment moderation enabled no doubt leads to more entertaining comments.
I was not infact aware that this was a discussion on manichean solutions to the problem of jihadism. As usual our Chump Change Mr. Sen has isolated himself in his own blindfolded vitriol by weeding out ‘apparent suggestions’ from my post that are non existent. I could clarify my stand on the contentious charges he makes but for purposes of amusement, I’m not going to. Instead I’ll wait for his “anti right-winger” State Police to put me behind bars for daring to mention indeed ‘HARD FACTS’ like the inability or impossibility of quantifying the actual percentage of muslims who condone the GOALS of the jihadists. Lets indeed check hard facts. That pretty 1% figure…where did your intellectual highness ascertain such a ratio? What statistical methodologies were used in this large-scale case global study? What is the range of error? These will turn out to be rhetorical questions as indeed no such study has been or can be carried out. And like I was shocked by the Syrian cab driver in New York, I have stated clearly that I WILL NOT ATTEMPT TO QUANTIFY. But one point needs clarification. I do not here abhor only those who support ‘violence’ or ‘terrorism’, indeed I mention every peaceful devout Muslim who has grand visions of a Caliphate and seeks to replace the flag atop the White House with the black flag of jihad (propaganda? check this out my senile friend: http://www.jihadwatch.org/Anti_UAC_protesters_feb1_raid_lrg.jpg )
Indeed, since you now realise that the theory of islam cannot be defended you fall into usual fallacious canards like “RSS VHP” blah blah blah. It is my choice to focus on what I think to be the more pressing need for the moment: focus on islamic supremacism. Notice how I said supremacism not terrorism. For terrorism is only one of the countless methods of jihad. Demographic conquest and subversion have been used in many instances. The RSS VHP and any other Hindu “fascist” organisation did not write the Qur’an or the Hadiths which contain the methods of the Prophet on dealing with situations. The truest believers are those who follow his teaching to the hilt. That is where our problem arises. I for one, do not care if one believes in goose eggs and worships them. But when an ideology threatens to take over my rights and accord to me disproportionately oppressed status within my own country I will oppose it tooth and nail. Mohammad said “war is deception,” and under this edict countless Muslim religious leaders and scholars have agreed that it is OKAY to lie to a kaafir for the advancement of the faith. Like I mentioned in my first post, this model of Muhammad as the perfect man (uswa hassan) and a model for all mankind (al insan al-kamil) is the fundamental distinction which makes reform in the religion very difficult (secondary: quran the immutable word of Allah). If Muhammad is the perfect man, then all his methods must be true for all times. And it is here that Muslim clerics have not issued fatwas against Bin Laden but do so about Sania Mirza’s skirt without a forethought. (Yes yes I know Spanish muslim associations did issue an anti binladen fatwa but after 2 yrs of the madrid bombing).
I am reluctant to discuss solutions here as people are yet to grapple with the above home truths and indulge in common street talk fallacy. Also at this point if I indulge in discussing solutions I will have to state my actual position on Mr Sen’s ad hominem against me and that will not yield further amusement.
So for the purposes of some entertainment…I say let the vitriol keep flowing 🙂
Good night and good luck
*puff*
PS – Hey mr. chump heres an advantage for you, rip apart this signature of mine and make me look like an idiot. You can indeed do that if you focus only on my signature. But ah well…I know Im good at preemption.
Ball’s in your court
@dipanjan: Thanks for making your points clear objectively (not with sarcasm now perhaps) that you support the views expressed in the post. Honestly, I did not realize it from your comment. It was really difficult for me to see your comment to be an extension of the current post at least in spirit. I don’t know if you are quite frequent with making comments like this; however, I, perhaps, interacting with you for the first time, could not really comprehend the sly reference contained in the comment. I also believe that the said comments leave ample risks to be misunderstood, particularly by those who are unaware of such predilections of yours and also it is hard to explain the whole matter in the light of sarcasm. It is easy to catch somebody out in hindsight but at the time when it mattered I am sure nobody grasped what was going on.
@GB: Why the question of shooting in the foot comes? It is unfortunate that you maligned the healthy spirit of a debate this way. Do you participate in a debate, or engage in a discussion to satisfy your inflated ego with the sole purpose of defeating your opponent in an argument such that an accidental mistake is interpreted as “shooting in the foot� There are various ways in which an individual can win an argument. No, this is not something that I look for in a discussion. I want the truth to come out a winner not any individual.
YOURFAN writes:
@Akash: 1) How come you have gone practically silent (instead of sending long and vile comments you simply wrote: “I was stunned by your commentsâ€) after reading Dipanjan’s comment of “There are some omissions and mistakes, but those are to be expected from a recovering rightist lesbian-loving bourgeoisie Hindu fanatic.â€? It seems you prefer to remain silent when somebody of this blog’s readers seem to know you and that scares the hell out of you because you realize that your anonymity is not going to last. In GB’s One Down and a million to go I sent you the following comment when you attacked a friend/acquaintance of yours (where you also showed your aptitude for plagiarism). Back then, you did not have the “time†to respond. By the way I don’t know this friend/acquaintance of yours personally. But I found your comment despicable.
This is that comment that you did not reply because you were so busy. But I guess since you are sending so long comments now, you must have some time to reply.
“yourfan
Nov 9th, 2005 at 1:47 pm
Hey Akash,
People finding out your aptitude for plagiarism, insinuations, name dropping too hot for you to handle? Hence no counter points? So only you have the right to “propagate†“barbaric and inhuman views†about somebody who used to be your friend? And you are talking about ‘educated class’ and ‘civilized society’? Aren’t you a bit worried that your façade of anonymity is wearing thin?”
2) You wrote: “we now need to follow a more scientific approach and try to get to the root of the problemâ€. What scientific approach – you kidding? You are talking like those half educated politicians who don’t know what the words scientific approach entail. Are you one of those guys? God, then you are not worth my time.
3) I have a hunch you won’t have “time” to reply even now.
@Dipanjan: We need to expose people like Akash who claims (in a previous post) that he is already famous and does not need any extra attention and that is the only reason why he uses a pseudonym. He is so famous that he also plagiarizes Rabindranath Tagore!! Thanks for shutting Akash up (may be for a short while but that is something)! Congratulations!
@yourfan 2: Really felt nice to have you back. Please don’t be absent for a long stretch of time.
@GB: I don’t see why some of the readers did not understand the plain simple English that you wrote the article in. You never ever said that all Muslims living in India are anti India or terrorists. You condemn terrorism and that is all there is to it. I, like the majority of your readers, did not have any problem in understanding what you wanted to convey. Don’t get flustered with wrongful insinuation.
Yourfan
>>Shaan:What we need to do is take out these mullahs – these hatemongers. Arrest them for incitement of violence and try and jail them for long periods.
Whoa!!Hold the Phone!What a Brilliant Suggestion.How Down-to-Earth & Realistic.
If only JNU had such straight thinking folks like you then we perhaps would teach those blood thirsty Hindoo Fundamentalists a lesson.And while we are at it we perhaps could spread the *True* and *Pure* version of Islam.Then we all could live in Peace and watch Secular Movies like Amanullah,Akbar,Anthony.
Everyone knows that at the time of the blasts a marriage ceremony was going on in the sankatmochan temple. One of my acquaintances, being related to the bride was present there…and was one of the many injured.
Her account of the incident shocked me.
The bomb went off just behind their marriage photographer and they could see him burst into pieces. Nails and sharp metal pieces flew out in menacing volumes. She along with her husband and many others got multiple serious wounds…as they lay there bleeding the noise attracted many people who came in rushing from all sides…people from nearby area who they thought are coming for their help..actually came well equipped with plastic bags and started snatching away ornaments, wallets and any kind of valuables they could lay their hands on.
None lent a helping hand.
The police arrived and spread all over looking for other bombs, ‘if any’ and miscreants ‘if any’.
They were still lying in a pool of blood. Unattended.
Then a group of people arrived with a few stretchers, who were later identified to be from the RSS, and started transporting them, a few at a time…they ran the length to the nearest hospital carrying the wounded on stretchers.
The hospital already was full of people who had injuries from all the other possible sources except for the actual blast…but very punctually lodged themselves there. Afterall who’d miss out on free-treatment.
Luckily the “blast-injured” and actually injured people from the blast both got medical care.
When a few poeple wanted to leave for, say better medical attention at their own convenient places they were stopped from doing so. Our neta’s were coming naa…
Giving photogenic smiles and disturbing the patients who were already wreathing in pain with questions like “how are you feeling”..as if it wasnt eveident how they were.
Needless to day i was shocked to hear the whole incident from her side. Our news channels were busy analysing the whole issue politically, socio-economically, psychologically etc. but i didnt see any channel cover the victims’ side of the story. How they helplessly kept lying and saw their “fellow countrymen” rob them, loot them and leave them. The police were busy doing their job. The ambulances arrived late (At least my acquaintance and her relatives couldnt relish their services).
It was yesterday when i heard it all from them–she and her husband, and couldnt sleep last night.
I mean how can people see others lying and dying and can only rob and snatch…leaving them there..helpless.
This, scaringly enough, is not a one-off incident.
Recently there were ‘handsful’ of people in calcutta(i still prefer this name) in numerous such incidents when elderly people have died in the middle of busy streets and no one has cared to even give a passing glance. There were a handful on people only too, when jessica lall was murdered who have very conveniently closed their eyes and ears or perhaps diverted their senses to more “viable” activities. There are of course only a handful people there also on innumerable incidents when girls are molested or teased, dadas bully innocent ‘less muscular’ lesser mortals or elderly people are mistreated.
Add up these handsful and one day we’ll get the sum total to be india’s entire population.
As many great minds have pointed out, we indians are never proud of the good things we have.
As it seems, more importantly we are never shameful of not having the basic humane qualities
I would like my fellow commentators and Arnab to answer something. What is Hinduism? First of all, the word Hindu is a persian word. Hinduism as a religion crystallised as late as 400-600 AD. It was actually never a religion. It is more of a philosophy, a philosophy that is supreme, rises above petty interests of the self.
About all our sadhus waxing eloquent about traditional Indian samskars, the basic tenet of this philosophy is to get rid of them. Get rid of your sanskars, be liberated. There is nothing absolute. You can’t stick with some beliefs that were born out of mindless debates by superstitious so-called Brahmins. Ved tells you not to follow anything that is dictated by others. Mediatate, know your inner self, you are bound to find the right way to liberation.
à¤à¤•à¤®à¥ सतॠविपà¥à¤°à¤¾: बहà¥à¤§à¤¾ वदनà¥à¤¤à¤¿
Truth is One, though the Sages know it as Many
No need to subscribe to any sanskar or practice, you will find the way yourself. When Buddha and Krishna say:
Desire is the root cause of all sufferings
They point towards these sanskars. They rob you of your ability of logical reasoning.
What I meant to say is that we have forgotten these golden words of advice. So we are all the time squabbling about other ‘religions’ being violent, stealing the limelight. Forget what is happening. Rise above such petty issues like “they are killing my fellow people”. In this world, nobody is nobody’s. Don’t think about them. Just go back to your inner self, ask it ” What I am writing and thinking, is it worth the effort?” You will find the answer to it, just ignore them. You can not change the world. Period.
What is the big deal if they destroy some temples? You have the Supreme being in you, you are the creator, you are the destroyer. They can not destroy your belief, if it is the truest and purest. If they manage to shake it, it means you are going wrong somewhere. These sanskars are blocking your clarity of thought, that you are affected by some ignorant people. Don’t make a fuss over it. Let it pass as a cloud in a clear blue sky. Don’t concern yourself with interpretations of any text, be it Quran or Gita. You don’t need to have the Gita by heart to be a Yogi. Then Buddha won’t have achieved enlightenment. You read it, its fine. But that is not compulsory.
Someone throws tantrum at Islam, some Muslim comes out, defends charges and in turn throws tantrums at RSS-VHP. What is this? Total anarchy in the name of free expression of thought.
Anomit,
Wonderful “aag mein ghee” effort! And at the right time… just when things seem to have settled down a bit. Can’t wait to see the daggers flying! Hope I will not be disappointed.
Three days later, you guys are still at it!!! Lighten up dudes! Arnab, write a review of Maalamaal Weekly to change the mood.
anomit
Go fug yourself.
@Anomit: When you are not sure…… dont state things as facts. How did Hinduism crystallise as late as the 400-600ad?????????Who gave u that figure?????? Conviniently forgot Manusmriti??? and for ur info…. the Upanishidas and not the Vedas talk abt the inner god.
“In this world, nobody is nobody’s. Don’t think about them. Just go back to your inner self, ask it †What I am writing and thinking, is it worth the effort?†You will find the answer to it, just ignore them. You can not change the world. Period.”
In that case….. why the hell do u comment??????????????
Oh wow Anomit, I dont follow a religion- I wave around my hands coz of superstitious brahmins. Each time I see some condescending rhetorical nonsense- somebody comes along and trumps it- and this time its you, with this idiotic and juvenile claim that since God exists within ourselves we need not worry about temples. Guess what, idols are consecrated, temples are considered sacred ground- ie blessed. You may follow your zen buddhism whatever- I follow a religion- aka Hinduism, and I go to temples and I sure would appreciate that no jihadi ba$tard kill me or my loved ones or damage the shrine because I call the Lord Shiva, Ganesh or Mahesh or Vishnu and not Allah.
I mean how blind can you guys be- somebody comes to your house, kills you because you are different and one is supposed to rationalize all that with “uh oh hinduism is a philosophy all this didnt matter, its all a rss thing”.
Grow up. And dont blame one community – brahmins or marwaris or whatever for a crime committed by some idiotic jihadis.
@tushar: Sober up. You have been administered an overdose of communal hatred maybe by some hindu fanatic. You don’t know how much pain you are in. Read Noam Chomsky, Amartya Sen etc. to take the blinkers off. You will be a liberated man then.
@anon: which version of yourfan are you? 1,2, 3 or what? I only reply to those comments which I can ill afford to ignore. For example, when someone named tushar is overcome by hatred, anger, communal feeling, he needs immediate attention for the sake of the community, the country and the posterity.
Anyway, your comments are interesting; however, I don’t think I am the right person to answer those. I can’t make any sense of them.
A word of advice for you: One does not have to be a fan of a person to admire him/her. In an intellectual community where reason, rationality are the rules the game, this fan culture is considered shameful.
@anomit: quite ambitious but not practical.
Unfortunately, as this blog does not protect against impersonation which can potentially ruin an otherwise very nice discussion, I have devised a way to ensure that. If I follow this then nobody just can’t walk in and pose as me. The usefulness of that is readily observable as there is already another Akash in the comment section who is not me. The rule is: every comment is associated with a unique timestamp. If I am not an impersonator then you can find the time stamp if you click on my signature which is the unique url of my weblog. What you have to check is that my signature is present in the exact form as the URL of the page and the unique timestamp appears in the page.
I am just wondering whether impersonation has already affected the spirit of the discussion here. However, this scheme is unable to solve the problem of repudiation which is again not much of a problem in an online discussion.
Signature:
http://senakash2002.blogspot.com/2006/03/signature.html
@Akash Sen, will put the rest in too so that there is no confusion!!!! (http://senakash2002.blogspot.com/2006/03/signature.html)
I have been reading ur comments and the responses to it and I am amazed that u still have not got the point. Either you live in an utopian world where u think that ‘ jaadu ki jhappi’ is the answer to everyones problems or u r one of those ppl who like to argue for the sake of it. I doubt that u have any knowledge of the Islamic religion or Hindu religion to even venture into a religious discussion. U seem to b under the delusion that Islamic terrorists venture on their chosen path due to the oppression, suppression and what not by the other faiths and that its the duty of the other sectors of the society to find out the reasons, thru a scientific approach of course, and change themselves to ensure no further problems. What u dont seem to realize is that, when the basic tenent of a religion is- paradise when u kill a kafir/anyone who slights it(assumed or otherwise), there is ample fodder for any mullah with an agenda to cause mayhem. So as someone suggested its for the powers that b of the religion to sit down and update it for the present time and not literally(with convinient interpretations)follow the text which was meant for life in a different era.
Great, GB! That was a fine way of putting it across. This is the first time I’m visiting your blog and boy! I think I’ve landed it goldmine. Will be back for more and more..
I’m dying to meet that brainiac Sri Lankan journalist and get enlightened in presence of this esteemed visionary of our times. Plus I lived quite a while in Kashmir and could feed him some more stories of the “attrocities”.
Sigh! Who is the real victim here?!
jedi
Right your comment has been edited out.
Sorry. This post is not about hatred towards any religion nor about analyzing how barbaric a religion is. Plus the website you link to is not a balanced scholarly impartial source—–and frankly this discussion has gone on as long as it should have. Talking more is just belabouring the point. While I do think you can respond to attacks against your viewpoint I do not appreciate links to 3rd party website more so as such links have already been allowed for the sake of free speech.
Enough however is enough.
@yourfan:
Thank you for your comment. However i would like just like to attract your attention to the above comment by Mr. Sky :
“@anon: which version of yourfan are you? 1,2, 3 or what? ”
If you notice, even GB has stopped justifying himself to Mr . Sky as it is a futile exercise. If you also read Sky’s blog, you will find writings which manifest a person who is extremely touchy, peevish, and sensitive.Yes, whatever he thinks is correct, his argument is always rational and we are all prejudiced fools. But last time you I and GB were arguing with him in “1 down and a million to go” , we were wrong. Now all of the abover people…Right, Tushar, Dipanjan, Debashis,and so many more people who engaged in such a wonderful debate…all are wrong. And unfortunately people are impersonating him! What a serious offence! After all here may be many worlds, but there is only 1 sky!
One way to fight a bull like this is to take it by its horns. If you start talking logic, it may not like it and start poking you. So you may have to hurt the bull to tame it, which we shouldnt be doing in a great blog like this. So the request to you is that dont debase yourself by fighting the bull. Ignoring can be a way too. Just make him dance around with your red tag. Its immense entertainment! And dont worry if it manages to poke you sometime. Its horns are made of plasticine.
We have witnessed two major outbursts of public outrage and in the recent past in India and elsewhere – the issue of the Danish cartoons and the other is the sensational Jessica Lal case. While the first one was translated into dharnas, black flags, anti-bush rallies ( i did not understand why they were targetting a very US Bush when the publisher and the cartoonist were somewhere in Europe), multi-crore award (what was that democratically elected representative of indian people thinking !! me thinks these guys need an orientation session when they are elected to the parliament – about their duties and the job they have been asked to do ! It pains me no end to realise that a major part of my money goes into paying this guy’s salary, while he is busy issuing rewards !! isnt he supposed to be non-religious in a job like that !!! ).
The second case – the much publicized Jessica Lal case took a very different form. The press (television press) played a major role. I think, this case has set a precedent for all Indians. The anger and outrage of the public has been channeled positively and a strong message has been sent to all (judiciary, police, President) and the case has been re-opened and the police have been booked. however, how long this will sustain is to be seen.
We need the second kind of protest – I was watching a program on discovery the other day and it was about the reaction of Spaniards in Madrid after the blasts there. All the citizens were on streets. expressing their opinions and condemnign the incident and demanding answers. We need that kind of public outrage. We must demand answers. Unless people are are an active part of a democracy it doesnt work. We cannot be active only during the election time and flaunt the inkmark on the index finger and say “i voted”. it wont work. It just wont work.
why is no one protesting about the Varanasi blasts or other such innumerable blasts in the country in the past? Are we accepting this as a part of our “Great Indian Karma” ? why is the administration not being questionned ? why arent TV channels garnering public opinion and seeking answers ?? why is there so much laxity in the system?
YOURFAN writes:
@yourfan2: Honestly, I was going to send a piece of my mind to ‘shameful’ Akash – the number one bully who considers himself to be an ‘intellectual’ who vomits unsolicited ‘advice’. But then I read your comment. Your suggestion makes ample sense and I am following that to the dot. Thanks for your comment.
I read the article you refer to about the Indian Army in Kashmir, and there’s only one way to describe it : it’s peurile. I cannot imagine how a website like DesiCritics could publish something as illogical as this, but then they have published worse before.
I agree with you that there is only very few Indian Muslims who are terrorists, and the majority are peace-loving people with allegiance towards India. I also agree that terrorists deserve to be punished, and harshly punished. However, I do not agree that one should have laws that curtail people’s civil rights, particularly in light of these extreme circumstances. There are a lot of people who do not agree with us; the Hindu nationalist party makes sure that there are a lot of people who think that all Indian Muslims are terrorists, and making such laws will only help them victimize more Indian Muslims. Muslims are victims too, and we should not forget who the victims were in Godhra.
Well, it seems my comment has raised some serious emotions. Let’s handle it one by one.
@confused: If you don’t have any valid points to raise, better mind your own business. Try doing it to M.
@Rahul: I reject the authority of Manusmriti as the principle text of ‘Hinduism’. In fact, it was this text that was the forbearer of the gender inequality that you see today in India.
I said, ‘Hinduism as a religion’. Better take note of it. If you have any doubts, show me even a single line or shloka in the Gita or Rig Veda that has the mention of the word ‘Hindu’.
@’Akash’: Where did I blame the Marwaris? Do you know what the meaning of Brahman is? It means ‘The Being’. Not a group of people who are given the exclusive rights to study the scriptures. Can you show me where in any of the two aforementioned texts it is suggested that a select group of people can go closer to the One and enjoy select privileges? When ‘Hinduism’ became a religion, it was these evils like caste system that crept into it and which continues even till this day.
I stand by my opposition against the construction of costly temples. Krishna says “Anyone who offers me even a leaf, a fruit and water with utmost devotion, shall reach closer to me.â€
It is because of idiots like you that the Red Army in China can carry on with the destruction of the Shaolin tradition of Chan Buddhism in the name of promoting nationalism. Do you know that Zen Buddhism is a distorted version of Chan Buddhism and Chan Buddhism was a unique concept of Buddhism introduced by Bodhidharma, from our own country in the Shaolin? It is essentially Indian in its approach, with distinct influences of Hatha and Raj Yoga. It is a complete way of leading your life, not some senseless riddles which even God won’t be able to decipher.
Finally, to all.
I want to make it very clear that I DO NOT intend to defend the action of the terrorists like the Human Rights people who live in their own ‘make belive’ world. Let me put in plain simple English transmitted at 220V instead of 132 KV. While condemning the terrorists, why do you let your emotions get the better of you? Then what is the difference between you and them? If you were given an AK-47 would you have done the same as those brain-washed loonies are doing. Be clinical in your approach. Consider them as your enemy, but without any hatred. What was the purpose of Krishna giving ‘gyaan’ to Arjun in the battlefield? It was only because he was overcome by emotions. That is when Krishna gave him the lesson in Karma Yog. Do not let your emotions get the better of you in anything you do. Be focused in the completion of the job at hand.
@Anomit: Hinduism is still not a ‘crystallised’ religion in my opinion…… and please dont limit manusmriti to gender inequalities….u probably read only the ‘na stri swatantram arhati’ part…. anyway this is no theological discussion.
I really still dont understand ur point. U say ‘Forget what is happening. Rise above such petty issues like “they are killing my fellow peopleâ€. In this world, nobody is nobody’s. Don’t think about them. Just go back to your inner self, ask it †What I am writing and thinking, is it worth the effort?†You will find the answer to it, just ignore them. You can not change the world. Period’
And then u say, ‘Do not let your emotions get the better of you in anything you do. Be focused in the completion of the job at hand.’ So is the job eradicating ur ‘enemies without emotions’????????
wow. that is a lot of reactions!
firstly an UNHOLY Act (for want of a more definitive word here!) is an unholy ACT. violence ,of any kind, in any palce, against anyone, in the name of any creed, credo or belief, is something no-one here condones (right?).
kattar hindus are no beter than kattar muslims, any extremist fanatic stand, unacceptable. especially one that calls for killing, maiming, hurting, destroying.
so great bong, can all bloggers here say they will respect the other individual? and ka-boom….change becomes : )
lets pray the politicians and mullas and priests all grow consciences!
Hey Greatbong/Arnab,
Did you notice one thing. Just a mild criticism of Islamic terrorism has got you labelled a fundamentalist and what not. Hey now try abusing Hinduism much more harshly and what will you get. Accolades.. Try it friend. Its fashionable in this secular world, to abuse idol worshipping Hindus. See how that Islamic terror sympathizer Deshmukh comes smiling to you with open arms.
once ji
when lalu na…
met japan prime minishter koichoomi, koishcumi said naa!
“give me bihar i will turn it into japan 3 months … ”
then lalu naa said naa!!
“give me japan ” and then with great vigour naa!! he continued ji
“…i will make it bihar in 3 days!!!”
dekhiye naa lalu ji ko japani prime minishter jawaab mila naa email par ………..
lalu is needid to fight the sampradayik takatein ye lalu….lalu ki lathi!!!!!!! lalu ki bhains !!!! ye sampradayik log…… reservation for muslims !!!!!! …. reservation for more people ! ye lalu !!!!!!!! ye ram vilas paswan !!!!!! bihar railways most developed !!!!!! shreemati sonia gandhi !!!!!! balidan ki moorti !!!!!! mein kehta hoon …. !!!! … sab mil kar chunav lado !!! aur mil baith kar khao !!!!!!
I think we should set up a comission to inquire about the blasts by a judge recommended by Buddhadev Bhattacharya, he should be given 3 months to bring the report before an assembly election….. i am suspecting that these blasts may have been an accident caused probably by a gas cylinder, kerosene stove or other means….. i think it is possible that the people in the temple poured a lot of oil and everybody had huge big lamps with them that (those wicked hindus!!!!!!!!!!!!!) caused the fire ………. oh the irony , muslims are being accused….. innocent terrorists and osama bin laden aare being defamed. what injustice….. oh these shameless hindus….. these wicked hindus ……. !!!!!!!
zdrastvooytye!!!!!!!! http://www.fsb.ru http://www.ministryofstatesecurity.ru
I can’t make any comments on the varanasi blasts. All I can say is that Islam does not preach anything bad. (On the contrary I think that jihad must go on to convert the hindus into Islam … oh these idol worshipping multiple god worshipping hindus !!! ) I totally express my objection to people who are portraying a bad image for Islam. However, we must focus on hindu extremism. Once again, LK Advani is planning a rath yatra. Oh , LK Advani, I will not leave you…. you are the hindu extremist, we must deal with hindu fundamentalism. We must focus on the communal forces we should not get diverted to other issues … oh, the hindu extremists , oh rss, bjp
I think Rahul is an undercover paki agent
I think this muhammed the deshmukh is a paki, otherwise what the hell does he mean by “muhammed the deshmukh” that sounds like paki accent
@ Moderate Muslim: For you and your “ideas” and your Jihad: http://maddox.xmission.com/images/pirate.html
@moderate muslim
One more link for you. After going through this link, you will be left only moderate.
http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/why_i_left_islam.htm
Hi GreatBong, dude, I stumbled upon your blog by accident and I had great fun reading all of your postings. This is the first time I am commenting, since the topic you have (so ably) tried to tackle is one that touches a raw nerve in most Indians (nay people all over the world).
In the interest of political correctness, it is looked down upon to suggest that a particular religion is linked to terrorism, even when evidence upon evidence can be piled up that points in that direction. For those of us who have forgotten, or are not aware of the fact, similar appeasement had directly led to the growth of Hitler and Mussolini’s powers and caused the horrific bloodshed of WW II.
Seeking to appease Adolf HITLER and Benito MUSSOLINI, Chamberlain first negotiated a treaty with Italy accepting the conquest of Ethiopia on condition that Italy withdraw from the Spanish Civil War. Turning to the Czech question, Chamberlain conferred with Hitler and Mussolini. In the Munich pact (1938), signed also by France, Chamberlain accepted Hitler’s territorial claims to predominantly German areas of Czechoslovakia. Though Chamberlain assured Britain that his concession had brought “peace in our time, Hitler soon broke his agreement and occupied the rest of Czechoslovakia.
We are following the same dangerous path today – that of appeasement, and it is bound to yield the same disastrous results. For all those self proclaimed pundits of Islam who assert that Islam is a religion of peace, I would beg to differ. IT IS NOT. Islam is as much a religion of peace as Nazism is an ideology of love. In Quran there are direct instructions to convert non-believers by force or kill them (Smite their finger tips off them and slay them whereever ye find them : Quran).
I know this post is going to attract a lot of brickbats, and I will be called a fascist, a communal person and (horror of horrors) an RSS guy. However, those of you who are really interested in knowing the truth can visit the following 2 websites :
http://thereligionofpeace.com/
http://www.faithfreedom.org/
The former website maintains a record of all attacks perpetrated by Islamists since 2001 (the list is growing by leaps and bounds – believe me, and most of the attacks unsurprisingly are carried out against Indians, since we are the no. one dhimmi nation), while the latter site talks about the violence inherent in this religion. You can bank upon what faithfreedom.org says, since the site has been founded and maintained by ex-Muslims who were disgusted with the ideology of hate fostered by Islam. They have made it into their mission to demolish the myth about Islam being a religion of peace.
GB, I am sorry if I have embarrased you by this post, and you are free to erase this post if you wish, but I would request you to go through the sites mentioned by me above.