What i meant when i spoke about inadequacy of ‘lists’ is that discussion of religious evils must necessarily be detailed discussions as this is a very involved topic. Reducing to “list” is , in a way , offcourse possible but that can not escape oversimplification. And I am fully convinced that the same can be done for Hinduism as well as any religion in this world.E.g: Caste system, Attitude to women , multifarious rituals , Godmen like Saibaba … ( a sample list for hinduism ).I am fully convinced that a person who is as eager in vilifying Hinduism as you are in vilifying other religions will be able to provide a longer list . I am not one , even then i have a ‘List’:-)

“And this is the basic Hindu stance. However, the very basis of Islam is rooted in spreading Islam by any means possible, the charitable with the book, the profane through population explosion, the evil ones through the sword. This is the very basis of their faith.

Can you deny this?

If I vilify, I have ample reason to justify it.”

You may think hinduism is unique in tolerating all religions but there are historical allegations of Hindu persecution of Buddhists. Also , different religions will have different kinds of evil. Caste system is , for example an evil typical to hinduism. Whether intolerance towards other religions is a greater evil or dividing society into four castes is a matter of personal opinion. To me, all religious evils of all religions are equally despicable.I do not claim to be an Islam-scholar and can not say what is the basis of their religion. However , I am fully convinced that someone else can provide equally strong/stronger arguments to convince that the basis of islam is something apart from what you are claiming. Such arguments will be as Good/bad as yours. Even if I accept what you say , then this is a evil typical of Islam and i have already said all religions have typical evils and weighing which is a greater evil is a matter of opinion. I personally find all religions to be evil.

” we define Hinduism by.

Manu is not a religious personage. It is a loose amalgamation of multifarious and often contradictory pronouncements at different points of time. The Manusmriti does not equate to the Koran.”

If you define Hinduism by persons mentioned by you there is no reason why one can not include manusmriti in his defination. Also manusmriti not = Koran is only a way of seeing .Manu = koran is equally valid. actually it is not possible to find texts of exactly equal importance in a corresponding manner in two religions – ascertaining importance is arbitrary choice.

“That is why I say caste is a social problem, not a religious one. ” – caste system originated from religion only. With full validation by texts . even to this days only brahmins perform rituals – I do not think bibekananda ever stopped this in his organisation – correct me if i am wrong.

Tantra – I will obviously like to know more so please name a Eng/bengali book abt it. However , i already have rudimentary ideas abt it – i know it claims to conquer lust thru lust etc. I do not have to accept this claim – I may still , with valid reasons , think that all this doctrine was framed by few shrewd people to exploit – offcourse they will have to justify but accepting that is matter of opinion. Do refer the book please.Again , whether framing a whole doctrine to sexuallly exploit is more or less or equally diabolical to jehad or not is matter of personal opinion.

“in Hinduism, reformers nearly always manage to remove the ossified errors that have crept in to the faith. In other faiths, they are put to death and forgotten about.” – perhaps not true – Sati is still practiced , caste system is very much alive. Please give a few instances of other faith reformers put to death and forgotten – will be edifying for me – you obviously possess a lot of info on these issues.

” Vivekananda, thorugh Nirvikalpa Samadhi, saw the Ultimate Univerrsal Truth face to face. This is why he is great.
” – i think bibekananda was certainly a man of great ability – to be able to set up RKM like charity org is grt. However , i think samadhi etc. are only kinds of states of delusion and do not find anything grt in it.

“Hinduism in general considers vegetarianism to be a great virtue. This is a religious strength ” – i do not think there is anything great in vegetarianism . Also , many hindu sects , i.e Tantra ( matsya and mangsha are two of pancha ma of tantra ) do not support vegetarianism. However , the way ritual sacrifice is carried out is certainly diabolical – bibekananda supported this.

Sarada ma – I do not think her rejection of temptation( i would say natural physiological demand ) of flesh was her decision . Not that i think this kind of rejection is particularly admirable yet ability to undergo any sacrifice is admirable to me , although whether rejecting nat. physiological demands should be admirable is debatable. I think it was Ramkrishna’s decision – you may cite quotes by her claiming it was her decision but i do think ramkrishna was a much poerful personality who would be able to force his decision. Also , kind of hardships she underwent are underwent by many women , her kind of wisdom also had nothing profound abt it. I do think she was a quite ordinary person in all respects.

in an extremely lame gesture i was trying to imply that despite the bloody nature of the bible and its inspired violence, the dutch and the belgians (they did some hardcore stuff in africa in the name of christainity), they are relatively benign countries today who mean well for everyone.

so the same may be said for islam- that some day, some where in a galaxy far far away our muslim brothers will not be radicalized by their crazy leaders. it happened with the christains. its happening with the sikhs too.

i dont know about other people but i enjoy being bombarded by your encyclopedic posts.

then came along our frustrated housewife.”

REALLY? Mission to Mars huh?

I don’t think PhD’s are any more smarter than your average frustrated housewife. In fact many of them ARE the average frustrated houewife!

I think its a huge misconception to consider a PhD any more intelligent than average, or to assume that they have a higher IQ than normal. That is like calling a mechanic “smart” because s/he can tell you things about your car you never knew, or calling a carpenter smart cuz he can do things with wood that you wouldn’t dare to (like attach himself up on a cross with nails to give you a guilt trip).

Showcase knowledge? Low blow. Ouch, that hurt. Please appreciate that my intention is definitely not to ‘ showcase knowledge’, but communicating my thoughts with others, and eagerly learning from others too.

“i never called Gowalkar an anti-semite (stating specifically that he supported the creation of Israel).”

I didn’t say you did. There was a comment by someone else on Golwarkar earlier in this thread, so I thought I’d pen my thoughts on this. That’s why I addressed point 5 alone in your name (Jesus – Pilate).

The fact that my whole comment got mangled as (I pressed send before editing) has added to the confusion. Sorry about that.

“since you raise the rather bloody nature of the bible, i would like you and mr. khujur to consider how this reflects on dutch christains or belgian christains. i hope you understand what im getting at.”

I do not get it. Are you talking about the pacifist nature of Dutch & Belgian Christians in spite of their divergent allegiances? Well Dutch Christians at one time waged exceptionally bloodthirsty campaigns :

(a) Against Spain (they burnt down Antwerp Cathedral & slaughtered Catholics. Thus Philip of Spain sent in the brutal Count of Alba to suppress the rebellion.

(b) During the 30 Years War (1618-1648), they were heartily engaged in one of the cruelest and intense blood-letting the world has ever witnessed.

(c) They took this opportunity to wrest entire colonies away from Portugal (which had been subsumed in to Spain, the antagonist of Holland in the conflict). They wrested the Indies, attacked Portuguese colonies in Bengal (I think, Chinsura?), took South Africa, snatched North Brazil, and even stormed the heavily guarded famous Portuguese fort of El Mina in East Africa.

(d) Their horrific treatment of poor South Africans and Indonesians is a result of this barbarity.

As far as Belgian Christians go, Belgium is too small and recent a country to be involved in religious conflicts. It arose after an exhausted and effete post-Napoleonic Europe and Holland acceded to the Catholics of southern Holland seceding without bloodshed. In reality, there was nothing Holland could do about it.

Even then, the treatment meted out by their king, Leopold (ok, a German) on the poor Congonese is nothing short of outrageous.

I referred to the Bible (in context of your points on Jews killing Jesus) as I am not sure we can resort to the New Testament uncritically as historical evidence.

“pardon me but sometimes you do tend to sound a little hysterical while making your points.

Ok, fair point, I shall try being more reserved in future.

Please do note that some of my more colorful comments were contrived theatrical antics rather than genuine histrionics. They were intended for specific commentators who had abused Hinduism (like the wit who linked to a website listing the ugliest aspects of Hindu mythology). However, other readers have no way of ascertaining that the comment is tongue-in-cheek, and may take genuine offense.

“and however justified, many times they do pour vitriol on another religion”

Its not that I want to ‘pour vitriol’ on any faith, but day by day, people are being forced to admit less and less charitable things about the ‘religion of peace’.

The UK tried desperately putting a brave face on the growing terrorist menace that was spreading in its midst for decades, in spite of Hindu organizations cautioning authorities. Now they are being forced to change their stance every day.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7078712.stm

As people who live in the UK know, the real number is 20 times higher than the admitted one of 2,000. But anyway, 2,000 is a start, and watch this media number-bite multiply massively in the next few months.

But I take your point on the need to measure some of my comments. I accept it.

It may be because it is easy to highlight the obvious evils still pervading the religion of love, while the same cannot be listed for Hinduism.

“It is also necessary to oppose your fanatic vilification”

With all due respect, I define the chain of fanaticism as follows : Sectarianism breeds bigotry resulting in fanaticism.

I am not sectarian. I believe in equal rights and responsibilities for all cultures. If a genie boons me the power to “make the whole world Hindu”, I will shudder away from it. Where’s the fun in that monotony? Let all faiths exist in love and peace, no one overcoming or overwhelming the other.

And this is the basic Hindu stance. However, the very basis of Islam is rooted in spreading Islam by any means possible, the charitable with the book, the profane through population explosion, the evil ones through the sword. This is the very basis of their faith.

Can you deny this?

If I vilify, I have ample reason to justify it. If you wish me to cloak it in sugar-coating, it will be more palatable, but the facts remain unaltered.

“Caste system”
You have said ‘some people’ have spoken against it in Hinduism. From time immemorial, ‘all’ great Hindu personages have spoken against it. Adi Shankaracharya, Madhavacharya, Ramdas, Tulsidas, Mirabai, Chaitanya, Ramakrishna, Vivekananda, Sai Baba, even the modern Shankaracharya. These are not a few people. This is the entire gamut of personages we define Hinduism by.

Manu is not a religious personage. It is a loose amalgamation of multifarious and often contradictory pronouncements at different points of time. The Manusmriti does not equate to the Koran.

That is why I say caste is a social problem, not a religious one. Thus a purely religious solution to it has failed. The religion does not need to change. The society does.

The same cannot be said of the extreme exclusiveness preached in the religion of peace. That is a religious problem. The religion needs to be corrected.

“Tantra”
I am surprised you define Tantra as pure exploitation. I can recommend a good book that will help you know more about it.

Tantra is a dangerous path, using a glut of sex as a process to finally overcome lust. Thus it is highly open to abuse, and thus Hindu saints advise serious caution against it.

Seriously, Tantra does not pose the same menace as jehad.

“Reformers in other faiths”
You have cited reformers in other faiths. Of course they are worthy of admiration. The distinction is in Hinduism, reformers nearly always manage to remove the ossified errors that have crept in to the faith. In other faiths, they are put to death and forgotten about.

“Bibekananda – Meat eating”
Yes, I accept that I do not understand Vivekananda’s stance on meat eating either. One reason may be that vegetarianism breeds higher love and tolerance, whereas meat infuses a bit of toughness and assertiveness. The need of the hour (subjected nation, famine murders) was manliness and opposition to a greater evil than meat eating. This is only my opinion, and not a justification.

Besides, Vivekananda, thorugh Nirvikalpa Samadhi, saw the Ultimate Univerrsal Truth face to face. This is why he is great. Not for his dietary preference.

Further, you will note that leaving Vivekananda aside, Hinduism in general considers vegetarianism to be a great virtue. This is a religious strength of Hinduism you have cited.

“Sarada ma is worshipped as somewhat of a Goddess” !

What do you mean as goddess? The Indian term is devi, divine one. She lived a highly spiritual life, abstaining from the temptations of the flesh, and yet inspiring others with her wisdom. She was a beacon of hope for Ramakrishna’s disciples after his early passing. She is definitely worthy of our reverence, and of a higher level of spirituality than us. Thus she is divine.

of course your views are way more educated and important.

pardon me but sometimes you do tend to sound a little hysterical while making your points. and however justified, many times they do pour vitriol on another religion. so its funny to see you patiently arguing the case of humanity against another hysterical person.

HINDU EVILS :
Caste system – the fact that some people have spoken against this does not mean it is not an evil . It is very much a burning issue . It contributes to as diverse events as that of lynching of Dalits to that of thwarting of possible love-marriages.

Women – Most religions are anti women . hinduism is no exception. the whole doctrine of Tantra is about sexual exploitation in name of religion . Female infanticide is off course a religious evil as the social attitude which leads to this is a contribution of continuous subjection of women by religion . Manusmriti to top it all .

Rituals – From animal sacrifice to rituals requiring harming of one’s body for pleasing a God.

All this evils are also present in other religions of the world also.

MUSLIM EVILS :
About caste system you named its opposers – in every religion there are persons who have opposed its evils so there must be people who have opposed all this. Please do not ask me to name them as we Indians are usually taught about the bibekanandas from our childhood and not Islamic reformers . To find a list would be an arduous Googling job

Also , mass overpopulation point seems absurd because I have never heard of countries like Pakistan/Malaysia facing population explosion ( Although , I confess that I am not a specialist on census data of these countries and have not googled on this either )

BIBEKANANDA ?
I confess I have not read Bibekananda’s works but ratinalist Prabir Ghosh has , in his book Aloukik noy , Loukik ( Vol 5 page 116 ) quoted some of Bi’nanda’s letters which really cast a doubt on how sincere he was indeed in mitigating the caste problem.

Also , Bi’nanda said ” jibe prem … ” but was supporter of animal sacrifice during Durga puja in Belur Math which was stopped by Ma Sarada.
And talking about Ma Sarada – It is indeed one of the most ridiculous aspects of religion that is the way This lady is worshipped as somewhat of a Goddess ! Come on , all she did whole life is cooking etc. Although you may find good sayings by her these profoundly ordinary pieces of wisdom could have been uttered by any Tom-Dick_Harry!

I see you have been going through each post and adding your two bits to each comment thread. Lots of time eh?

But maybe a spell checker will help?