Kashmir Ki Boli

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There may be a few reasons that could be put forward as to why someone may oppose the temporary allocation (now rescinded under “public” pressure) of degraded forest land for the erection of “pre-fabricated structures” to temporarily house Amarnath pilgrims in Jammu and Kashmir.

The first possible cause for objection stems from principle. Namely that the State should not be in the business of interfering in matters pertaining to the administration of religious bodies and that a decision taken by a Governor that directly impact an  entity that he heads (Governor Sinha, who signed the allocation order, being also the head of the Shri Amarnath Shrine Board) is ethically questionable from a “conflict of interest” viewpoint. [Offstumped explains it here]

The second  is an environmental one—of the precedence set in appropriating vast tracts of forest land for human use. Though it should be noted that the forty hectares of land under consideration are “degraded” forest land and much of it is already being used by Amarnath pilgrims.

The third is of course the most obvious and the one that has mobilized radical Kashmiris all over the valley— the mass communal hysteria that the Hindus are “re-colonizing” a land from where they have been ethnically cleansed. Of course the pity is that noone here is “owning” the land by any stretch of the word. Nor would Hindus be crazy to come back to Kashmir to “resettle”—-after all our capital is New Delhi and not Tel Aviv or Beijing (two countries who do follow a official policy of demography change through resettlement).  Its not even the case that any permanent structures are being constructed for the benefit of the Hindus—-certainly not one with a computer center, bank and conference facilities as the to-be-constructed Haj complex in New Delhi (cost= Rs. 300 million).

The reason the proverbial shit has hit the Karakoram, though of course intensely political and religious, does have an economic origin.

A single family, the Maliks,  descendants of the legendary Buta Malik who supposedly first discovered the cave, used to be the custodian of the shrine till 2000. While the fact that a Muslim has been the guardian of a Hindu shrine has been hailed as a manifestation of Kashmiriyat or “spirit of tolerance” , it would be only the most naive who would not note that one-third of the temple donations went to the Malik family  thus providing a pretty strong financial reason for their secularism.

In 2000, however the administration of the Amarnath shrine was taken over by the Shrine Board and the Malik families lost their source of income.

Now a family do not a disgruntled minority make.

However in 2008, with the Shrine Board taking control of a sizeable amount of land on which development (even temporary) would take place, the local Muslim population which depends heavily on the Amarnath tourists, perceive an attempt by “outsiders” (read Hindus) to tap into their revenue streams—-after all if tents and other structures are constructed on the 40 hectares of land, a significant portion of tirth-yatris would no longer depend solely on the “Kashmiriyat” of the local population.

One can read between the lines in this statement from the Kashmir Bar Association (quoted here and here) and get an idea about the real reason for aggrievement.

This is a planned conspiracy to civil occupation of Kashmir’ by New Delhi, Ronga said, “We are not against Hindus and Amarnath Yatra, but we are against the transfer of land to SASB. The Muslims have been at the forefront to provide all possible help to the Yatris during the annual pilgrimage over the years. However, now the SASB is communalizing the issue”.The KBA president said that the SASB would use the land to raise permanent structures to settle non-Kashmiris, thereby changing the Muslim-majority character of the Valley. “It is a conspiracy to civil occupation and to change the Muslim character of the Valley,” he said.

Anti-outsider feeling is not unique to the Valley—from the Bengali “parar chele” (locality boy) who feels miffed that the cement contract went to a “outsider” (and then breaks your car window) to the manus who feels angry at the Bituwa whose taxi is plying his “route”, this antipathy to the Johnny-come-lately is universal.

However this being the Valley, the sense of religious entitlement is immense, justification for violence immediately available, Hindus and Indians universally hated and one community’s perceived economic misery immediately becomes the  “people”‘s Jihad.

In conclusion, let me make a few observations about an episode of “Face the nation” that I saw on CNN IBN which I found fairly interesting. [Video]

1. Note the topic of the SMS poll. It says “Is Jammu and Kashmir hostage to hate politics between communities”? This to me subtly implies that the politics in J&K is being driven by “mutual” hate between communities, whereas the reality in J&K (in other parts of the country it is different) is that the “hate” is not exactly two-way.

2. Note Omar Abdullah’s statement:

Why suddenly this year it is necessary to transfer the land and confine the yatra to that. Where in the order does it talk about temporary structures? It talks about tunneling; it talks about rail links, it talks about road links. I don’t see the word temporary being used,”

He is later told (and that’s what all press outlets reported) that the decision was only regarding  the construction of “temporary structures”. Now since I have not read the original document, I do not know what is written there but this talk about “rail links” and “road links” is something only Abdullah mentions. The bigger question is—what is wrong in having rail and road links to Amarnath, should one be planned (not that it was)!

Of course Mr. Abdullah justifies the “anger of the Kashmiri”s with a ridiculous “Why was not there one (presumably structure/rails/tunnels) last year? There has been none for one hunderd and sixty years. Why now !” Dude. The answer is simple. It’s called progress. The same reason why there was no cell phone when your dad was your age. Is the great Kashmiri hope really that ting-a-ling that he expects the rest of India to not see through the fact that he has no leg to stand on.

3. Note Omar Abdullah saying:

The simple questions that we ask and this is where the problem arises because you start seeing things through the prism of religion and communalism. We are seeing it only through the prism of nationalism and protecting our right to our land.

We? Nationalism? Please Mr. Abdullah explain. Is Kashmir being referred to as a “nation” as distinct from India?

4. Note the journalist (Pravin Swami) from the China mouthpiece ironically named “The Hindu” in his sweeping statements blaming everyone—the Muslim and the Hindu politicians all around for spreading a message of hatred. Ho hum. Now I am sure that if the Hindus were the aggressors, the criticism would be much more focused and blame more selectively apportioned.

5. Also note this Swami’s closing comments 

Mr Omar Abdullah’s party and Mr Baig’s party have lost a lot more lives to terrorist bullets than the BJP. More Muslims have died at the hands of terrorists than Hindus. The truth is everyone is out to turn trivial issues into a means of sharpening divisions between people. It is sad.

Just a second. Maybe the reason for that just could be that Hindus (who were always a minority in Kashmir) have already been driven out of the Valley. As a result,  no Hindu party can have a sizable presence in Kashmir and hence cannot make as many “sacrifices” as Mr. Abdullah and Mr. Baig’s party. Did that possibility ever occur to you? (Kindly do remember the sacrifices that Mr. Baig’s party’s head honcho Mufti Sayed made when his daughter was “kidnapped”)

5. Note how our great Sagarika Ghoshe puts everything in perfect perspective with a most incisive closing line.

With all the politicking over his shrine, Shiva himself, the most powerful of Gods is angry and his lingam, in fact as a columnist said recently, is melting.

[Please keep the discussion civil. I know this is a most emotional issue. But still. I may moderate if I feel a line has been crossed. Also remember that the opinions in the commentspace are those of the commenters and not mine.]

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445 thoughts on “Kashmir Ki Boli

  1. is the land 40 acres or 400?
    “(Kindly do remember the sacrifices that Mr. Baig’s party’s head honcho Mufti Sayed made when his daughter was “kidnapped”)”…same mufti also demands dual currency in kashmir, was one of the first to ignite the issue here…and u never know…Mulayam Singh might demand bhart ratna for him soon.

  2. The problem is again our ‘sickular’ politicians. I don’t understand why my tax money should go towards funding Haj yatras, where only people from a particular community are allowed to go. The government creates committees for managing Hindu temples, but no such action for minority shrines. Minorities can setup their own educational institutes, which need not provide education to ‘backwards’.

    The root cause of this and all such troubles is that the Constitution and politicians think that minorities are more equal than others. The rise of the BJP has already shown that the majority will not take things lying down. None want majority ‘anger’ to erupt like it did in Gujarat. But if the majority keep getting pushed like this, that might unfortunately happen one day.

  3. This seems to me in the main a matter of “local”-vs-“outsider” sentiment (which as you have very fairly observed is nothing unique to Kashmir) fanned by the fact that this is disputed territory Kashmir, which defines itself a bit differently from the rest of India, not least because of its majority Muslim character .
    These “local” sentiments everywhere are very real and may be rooted in unequal development, and need to be addressed in stead of just being simplistically condemned as parochial acts of preferring the “local” to the “national”. The Indian states I believe need more federal autonomy, with the Center handling a few specific issues, in order to work more efficiently. The days of Nehruvian socialism and holding the states under tight central control are gone – this makes for bad governance, bad economics, the whole deal.
    As far as the Amarnath trust board is concerned, not much detail is there in the media, and there is every possibility of it being a shady money-making deal that reeks of outsider influence to the Kashmiri people. I am not aware of the exact facts, nor does your article mention much by way of specifics here, but it might be hasty to jump to conclusions without paying heed to these “local” considerations. I trust people in Kashmir to be more in the know as to the exact specifics.
    Also I beg to differ on this one-way communal sentiment claim; the BJP and the Sangh Parivar have been stoking passions all over the country, and spreading ill will as they are wont to. I can still understand Kashmiris feeling strongly about what happens on their soil, but a man in Bhopal being beaten up by hoodlums who know precious little, doesn’t sound fair to me. Just as there is no denying the plight of Kashmiri pandits being hounded out by Islamic insurgents, there is also no denying the discovery of the Amarnath shrine by a Muslim family, and the continued hospitality extended by a majority Muslim population to a Hindu pilgrimage over the years.

  4. Anonymous Coward: Majority Anger? You use those words as if you are trying to justify what happened in Gujarat.

    Well, I think the decision to hand over that land to the shrine board by itself was very innocent and wouldn’t have hurt any one. But it was not taken with due consideration to the protests it could lead to.

    The saddest part is the lives lost in the protests, in Kashmir and else where.

  5. @Anonymous Coward: I do not understand why the nation should pay for Haj. Never have.

    @Sahishnu, Vijay: Thanks

    @Kinjal: “I can still understand Kashmiris feeling strongly about what happens on their soil, but a man in Bhopal being beaten up by hoodlums who know precious little, doesn’t sound fair to me”

    How so?

    Incidentally, regarding the “one-way” communal sentiment claim please look at what I said. I said “one-way” with respect to J&K politics (and this is *not* true in the rest of the country). And that is simply because there are not enough Hindus left to be bold enough to foment “trouble” in the Valley.

    And the “hospitality” that is extended, I believe, is motivated considerably by financial considerations (nothing wrong in that at all). I really do not buy the “Kya humare pyar main koi kamee pad gayee” Alok Nath type reasons for the violent protests by the local population. Sorry I just cannot.

    @Atul: Should the perceived negative reaction of people, justified or not, be a factor before a government takes any decision? Or is the “will of the majority” (where majority refers to “majority of the local community”) all the justification that a governmental decision needs? Specifically, say if a majority of Hindus feel, unjustifiably, that a certain mosque X should be razed, would you be happy if the government gave primacy to the popular sentiment in taking a decision on the matter? And yes loss of life is always tragic.

  6. Hi Greatbong, let me tell you that I have been an avid reader of your articles and have loved them all to date.
    However, even though the above issue gives us a synopsis of how politics and religion go hand in hand in India. I think your approach is what is to be questioned here.
    Instead of playing the blame game, a mutual deal should be agreed upon. Moreover, denying of land to Amarnath Yatri’s certainly does not give Parties like BJP and VHP to disrupt normal life all over the country since it not only further instigates animosity between the two communities but it also gives the neutral person the wrong picture about India.
    Likewise dear Anonymous Coward its not a matter of majority and minority its a matter of power. I am sure none of the Hindu leaders really care if the Hindus of India get a meal 3 times a day or not and same is the case with the so called Muslim leaders as well, as long as it does not serve their political purpose.
    And If you say BJP’s attempt at ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Gujarat can be justified I am sure many of the terrorist organistaions involved in similar actions would share the same thought.

  7. @HK: And what kind of mutual deal?

    Moreover, denying of land to Amarnath Yatri’s certainly does not give Parties like BJP and VHP to disrupt normal life all over the country since it not only further instigates animosity between the two communities but it also gives the neutral person the wrong picture about India

    Kindly do point out where I said it “gives them the right”. In case you are somehow referring to my “one-way traffic” statement, the context was J&K which is how the MMS question was framed. Why I said that I have explained in a previous comment on this blog thread.

  8. It’s simply a case of local people fearing a disruption in their source f livelihood by a state disruption, that’s gone on to take social, communal, political flavors and biases. In essence, it is the same as protests in Delhi over the demolition or sealing drive. You hit at the belly, the mind loses control and the heart cries. The larger picture then becomes hard to look at for the individual, in his fury the politicos have tapped. The only thing worse than ill-directed positive discrimination for the perceived needy in our country is communalising and politicising religious and social demarcations by fanatic BJP/RSS/jehadis etc

  9. Glad to see you not afraid of speaking out their mind. I am a kashmiri hindu and we have always been second class citizens in the eyes of the government, both state and central – while we lived in kashmiri and after we were thrown out of there. With our spineless politicians catering only to the needs of the “minority” community, I doubt they will ever open their eyes to see the glaring injustice being done to the cause of the kashmiri hindus.

  10. @Atul: I was in no way justifying what happened in Gujarat. But one cannot deny the fact that the riots were sparked off by what happened in Godhra. For some reason, all discussions on the riots completely ignore that pilgrims from Ayodhya were burnt alive. There have been many attempts to question the role of the local Muslims, which IMHO are just ‘secular’ attempts to portray Muslims as the victims of some grand Sangh parivar conspiracy.

    The reactions of major political entities after the Godhra incident were shocking to say the least. The victims were to blame. They had teased a girl on the platform. They were anyway fomenting trouble in Ayodhya etc etc. I didnt hear any words of sympathy for the victims. But we have all kinds of NGOs jumping up for the riot victims using words like Holocaust. Are the victims of Godhra any less worthy of justice because of their religion ?

    This and other such incidents contribute to ‘majority anger’ and ignoring/deriding them will not make them go away. If it is acceptable for minorities to express their anger by bandhs and rioting, why not for the majority ?

  11. @HK: I would like to reiterate I am not advocating any ethnic cleansing. It is the application of double standards to majority and minority grievances which foments much of the trouble. I am pretty sure that most of such ‘emotive’ and divisive issues would be dead and buried if similar standards are applied to all divisive elements. Till that is not done, we will continue to suffer as a nation.

  12. Reading for quite a long time, but posting for the first time. Well written, well timed, issue has gone unnoticed in the nuclear jumble. The Amarnath cave, the shivling and the yatra has been a nexus between the Hindu priests and the Muslim ghorawallahs for a long time. Some old books on the Himalayas (refer Swami Pranabananda Maharaj) have long ago claimed that the shivling was almost antirely man-made. The strife is like always economical.

  13. @GB : thanks for the clarifications, but there being no saffron-bandana wearing trishul dhaaris in the vale of Kashmir, is a bit too obvious to need statement. But conflagrated communal sentiments in one part of the country do create backlashes and vicious feedbacks in another, which is why being locally one-way is of little significance. And of course you are very right about economic incentives being the main concern for the locals, which just goes to show people everywhere are more than willing to get on with the day to day small pleasures of life. Agreed that the Hurriyat and other political groups involved are politicizing matters, but I am just wondering how apolitical the Amarnath trust board itself is. I’d like to know.

    @Bhopale : I am prepared to give some benefit of doubt to the Kashmiri protestors since the chances of their knowing what is happening in their neighborhood and the relevance of their views to what’s happening there are unquestionably greater than some less-informed person in another part of the country, who are being mobilized based on some vague pan-nationalistic obscurantist arguments (not to say that some amount of propagandizing is not used to rouse Kashmiri sentiments as well, but that’s what politics is all about).

  14. I don’t know why Godhra and Gujarat are brought up everywhere. I don’t even think that it is well-established that the train fire was started by a Muslim mob…according to a government report the burn patterns suggested the fire had started inside, not outside, the compartment.
    Of course our Hindutva friends will assure us that it is pseudosecular propaganda. Can’t argue with that. The organized state violence after that was of course a legitimate human act of vengeance. Can’t argue with that either. Now can we have a Bhopal hartal protesting the Karbi Anglong massacre or the tragedies of the Hmar-Dimasa conflict please, since people like Bhopale seem very concerned about each and every “national” issue?

  15. Excellent piece!

    Consider the opposite scenario. If a Muslim organization gets land from Govt, the move will be criticized as “minority appeasement,” couple of morchas will be taken out, effigies burnt; but no govt will fall. I wonder why the same logic is not applied here. How come this suddenly becomes the identity crisis for the entire state?

  16. Excellent Analysis….
    Precisely the reason why The So called Secularists of India should be kicked off from the face of India…
    Glad that more and more people are recognizing this !!

  17. @kinjal…may be passenger in the train wanted to “aatm-daah” hence they set up fire inside the train and none of them tried to come out of it till they were burnt alive. may b they sacrificed their lives deliberately so that state sponsored riots could be carried on later….government reports…wow

  18. @ Greatbong: Good post. You always see things right at the center, fair and square. The people who think you are far right of the spectrum are those who are far left. Anyhoo…

    @ Kinjal.. in all the comments: Come again!!!!

    “These “local” sentiments everywhere are very real and may be rooted in unequal development, and need to be addressed in stead of just being simplistically condemned”

    Hmmm. How about local sentiments of Shri Raj Thackrey? Isn’t there a real strong local sentiment. I live in Mumbai, the epicenter of all the Raj Thackrey controversy. Dont you think I am more in the know about the “local” sentiment and the activities of the “Bhaiyyas” and therefore you should analyze my grouse? I know what goes around in my neighborhood. I think you should tell us all why “local” sentiments in Maharashtra are not that important and should not be addressed instead of being simplistically condoned by everyone, Greatbong included. There is a strong feeling you know amongst all the Locals here that UP bhaiyyas are changing the demography, that the whole problem is economic … that Bhaiyyas are undercutting locals.. what do you say to that? Ah.. Kashmir is different.. why? why? why? care to explain?

    “Just as there is no denying the plight of Kashmiri pandits being hounded out by Islamic insurgents, there is also no denying the discovery of the Amarnath shrine by a Muslim family, and the continued hospitality extended by a majority Muslim population to a Hindu pilgrimage over the years.”

    Bullshit… Read this you can

    http://satyameva-jayate.org/2008/07/07/lies-about-amarnath/

    Why not consider this alternate view point/thesis? It has supporting facts too. Read on and let everyone know.

    “I am prepared to give some benefit of doubt to the Kashmiri protestors since the chances of their knowing what is happening in their neighborhood and the relevance of their views to what’s happening there are unquestionably greater than some less-informed person in another part of the country, who are being mobilized based on some vague pan-nationalistic obscurantist arguments (not to say that some amount of propagandizing is not used to rouse Kashmiri sentiments as well, but that’s what politics is all about).”

    Excuse me and everyone here.. but did you say ” mobilized based on some vague pan-nationalistic, obscurantist arguments”.?
    This sounds like… eh.. Muslims getting angry about Danish Cartoons or say George Bush.
    And oh btw. what happens in Kashmir is pan nationalistic?hmmm..
    Good.

    “I don’t even think that it is well-established that the train fire was started by a Muslim mob…according to a government report the burn patterns suggested the fire had started inside, not outside, the compartment.”

    Kinjal, dear Kinjal.. talk facts. The UC Banerjee Commission was put out of commission by the Supreme Court, no less. And if you want to say there is a modicum of doubt, bring out the facts. Dont talk about burn patterns. Give us references and read counter references.
    And to think.. people lighting a fire or even having a fire burning in their midst and then being shut out from outside. yes yes. it is a conspiracy. How can poor Muslims do that. And did you say there was a Muslim Mob..ooooh. why? oh.. pray do tell me. A muslim girl was harassed. yes right..
    There was no hoarding of petrol/kerosene the previous night.No no… “It is all propaganda” of violent,saffron bandana wearing trishul dhaaris against peaceful skull cap wearing, bearded, non sword totting people.

    Please take your BS and feed it to someone else (please note, i am not asking you to leave, i do not have the right to.ALl i am saying is think before you talk). No one is going to buy it.

  19. “I do not understand why the nation should pay for Haj. Never have.”

    I agree with you.But I’d also like to add that I dont understand why I have to face blocked streets in Calcutta during Durga Puja. Surely the principle remains the same : using public goods for religious uses, no?.

    I say, let’s kick religion out of the govt once and for all. Lets put jayalalitha in jail for providing free meals to priests in temples and lets put the congress in jail for the million minority appeasing things they’ve done

  20. Apparently Sagarika Ghoshe(?) is thinking beyond Kashmiriyat, Indian-iyat and Hindutva – [edited]

    On similar lines as the comment from someone in this comment column, the only thing worse than ill-directed positive discrimination for the perceived needy in our country is perhaps shrinking manhood” :|

    Feel free to delete this if you dont think the comment is appropriate.

  21. I agree with you in res the perspective on Kashmir, but please refrain from calling The Hindu names. It’s about the only newspaper for instance, that didn’t fall for the Nazi-gate thing. It has a left-lean bias, but “China mouthpiece” is mudslinging.

  22. @Kinjal
    You have such a beautiful Sanskrit name.

    Kashmir has a 5000 year old Hindu roots, with atleast 2000 years of Shaiva tradition.

    Amarnath, a manifestation of Lord Shiva is way more “local” than that piece of Keratin u call “Hazratbal”.

    @Others
    Kashmir issue is not a ethnic issue. Kashmiri Muslims(who are children of hindus, who were converted) and Kashmiri Hindus (who now live in refugee camps and get 400 rupees a month per family) ARE BOTH ethnically Kashmiris.

    This is a purely religious issue.
    Misuse of terminologies lead to disasterous interpretations as was seen in the Bosnian conflict.

    More info on Kashmir,check out

    http://www.factusa.info/

    http://www.iakf.org/main/

  23. wrote something before..didnt show up

    @ Kinjal
    U have a beautiful name.

    Hazratbal -(supposedly a grand mosque honoring the hair of a Arabian clan leader)

    Amarnath- (supposedly a icon with roots in a 5000 year old Kashmiri Hinduism and 2000 yer old Shaiva Kashmiri tradition).

    “Local” shouldnt so difficult to define :)

  24. Hi Kannan,

    Thanks for the eye-opening link on the history of Amarnath. Millions of devotees have flocked to Amarnath over the centuries.

    The Amarnath pilgrimage is an ancient tradition and after all, Kashmir, much before some of the inhabitants of the Valley were converted to Islam, is the seat of Shaivite Hinduism, the place where thousands of yogis, sadhus, holy men, prayed, meditated and often attained realization, for at least 3,000 years.

    Please also note that the Kashmiri Pandits gathered at the Amarnath cave in 1675 and then went to meet Guru Tegh Bahadur in Anandpur Sahib.

    Rashtriya Sikh Sangat national president Sardar Gurcharan Gill affirmed this incident:

    “In Sikh history, we have an emotional attachment with the Amarnath Shrine. When due to the order of Aurangzeb, the Governor Iftikhar Khan was forcefully converting the Kashmiri Pandits to Islam, the Pandits gathered around this pious cave of Amarnath for prayer and discussion. From here they went to Shri Anandpur Sahib to meet Guru Teg Bahadur [in 1675]. After this event, Guru Teg Bahadur sacrificed his life to save Kashmiri Pandits from conversion,” the statement added.

  25. @GB,
    I’m aware of N. Ram’s pretty blatant pro-China stance – there was this long standoff between him and Vikram Seth on Tibet, for instance and other incidents. N.Ram’s Chinese ass-kissing policy is something a lot of readers of the Hindu criticize. I still feel, however, that the paper on the whole has more journalistic merit than other newspapers in the country, and that “China mouthpiece” is inappropriate.

  26. GB, thanks for the super post.

    I am wondering why we don’t have people like you on TV? Why the Indian News Channels are full of people like Sagarika and Barakha?

    And Hindu, let us not talk about the paid chinese agents like Karat and Ram.

  27. Rishi wrote:

    “Kashmir issue is not a ethnic issue. Kashmiri Muslims(who are children of hindus, who were converted) and Kashmiri Hindus (who now live in refugee camps and get 400 rupees a month per family) ARE BOTH ethnically Kashmiris.

    This is a purely religious issue.”

    How true. The same Rainas, Bhatts, Kauls, the same blood and ancestors, same language and cultural lineage, same skin and race, and yet, just a little change in the way of worship makes one to hold rifles and the other to pray for mercy.

    Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-3208306,flstry-1.cms

  28. All muslim readers of the blog who have no problems with the land being used during Amarnath yatra, please say aye. The nation desperately needs to hear from you guys. Your silence will cost us all very dear.

  29. @Bhopale

    The VHP workers in Bhopal used to be better than this (so now they just beat people u).

    Remember the ’92 riots and what happened near Moti Masjid?

    I was speaking with a friend in India,(Shan! bait for u) just a day before the VHP hartal and it seems, VHP leaders were planning to pull down Haj houses (built using Hindu taxpayer money), in different cities in India.

    Apparently, it seems nothing was done.

    @ Bengal voice
    Thanks. Didnt know that Shri Guru Teg Bahadur/Aurangzeb incident had its roots in Amarnath.

    @ I need reassuarance
    Silence of the lambs :)

  30. Exceedingly well put,Arnab.I only wish more people become aware of the grotesque double-standards that exist amongst our political class.
    Well,your efforts are one step in the right direction – Kudos.
    Maybe you should try to get your views published in the mainstream media.
    (The New Indian Express IMO is rather balanced w.r.t airing opinions of all idealogical hues)

  31. @Hades: The issue is not exactly the same. Haj is only for Muslims. The security etc provided during Durga Puja is a law and order issue. Muslims are free to participate in the celebrations, non-Muslims are not even allowed in Mecca!

    Durga Puja can be replaced by Kumbh Mela or other such Hindu festivals, where the duty of the state is to provide law and order. FYI, almost all big Hindu temples have government controlled boards which manage the funds. No such thing is done for Wakf properties. This selective interference by the government reeks of double standards.

  32. @Kannan : Of course the Marathi Manus movement is rooted in a widespread popular sentiment which needs to be addressed, which is not the same as giving in to or keeping silent on the violent rabble-rowsing actions the Sena or its new progenies. What makes places like Kashmir and NE obviously different, are their remoteness from the national mainstream, a heavy army presence, their being involved in politically contentious issues with foreign powers, etc etc……..all this can lead to a) excessive politicization murky-ing the details b) lack of transparency in the media c) a gulf between “local” perceptions and “national” sentiment…..I am just in favor of making allowance for these factors. About Godhra, although I do not see why it is brought up every other time, I would be glad if you would be so kind as to direct me to whatever commission report the Supreme court has finally accepted.

    @Rishi Khujur : I am aware of the Shaivaite roots of Kalhana’s Kashmir. Indeed I am aware of the historic kingdoms of Gandhara, Kamboja and Bahlikas….didn’t our Indo-Aryan cousins on the Iranian plateau also practise something akin to our noble Vedic rites? In your worldview, an infection with Arabian origins has infested our national body, and you have the full backing of a glorious history to support your views. Delight then in the grand delusions of the past and try and rescue us poor mortals from our wallowing in the infected present.

  33. I was refered here by a friend.

    I don’t agree with everything written in this post, but I feel the need to speak up on behalf of Indian Muslims. Things like this don’t get reported in the mainstream media:

    http://www.anindianmuslim.com/2008/07/muslims-favouring-hindu-stand-on.html

    Protests like these are where the true spirit of this nation lies. Quite frankly, I see nothing wrong with giving away land to the shrine board. I also don’t see any sense in the nation paying for Hajj. From where I stand, I am a reasonable Muslim. I don’t harbor hatred towards any community, I serve this country and its people more than most people of my generation and I pray that I can continue to do so until I die. I am undoubtedly Muslim and I am fiercely Indian – I carry both these identities proudly on my sleeve and I don’t see any contradiction between the two. I fight my jihad (with a small ‘j’) in the battle-field of ideas, where I advocate for the right of every woman to lead a life free from violence and for every person in this country to have access to health care. I have a vision for India and am sometimes unrealistically optimistic about whether it can be achieved.

    However, when Rishi Khujur talks of the VHP tearing down all the Hajj houses in the country, it sends a shiver down my spine and a spear through my heart. I remember Bombay in ’92, I remember Gujarat in ’02. I remember the times when I was so violently reminded that I will never be considered Indian enough, because of my religion. I come from enough privilege to be able to pack my bags and head west-ward, the way many, many of my peers (both Hindu and Muslim) have done. Yet, I stay back. I stay back because this is where my destiny lies. But as the number of “anonymous cowards”, “Kannans” and “Vibhashs” (and several other commentators on this thread) in this country increases, I fear that I will be forced to leave.

    I have never been able to understand how a powerful majority in any country can feel like it is being ‘wronged’. The ‘fear of small numbers’ is certainly more a reality in India than anywhere else in the world.

  34. The migrant Hindu labourers (particularly the ones who do not have much consideration for religious things and are more concerned in making sure their families do not go hungry) turned away from RajLand can be trained to learn Muslim culture, circumcised (if they are ok with this), and sent to the valley as Muslims. Slowly they increase their strength and become the Hindu Sleeper cells. :-)

  35. @ aye from a Indian Muslim

    Very nicely written.
    Do you believe in the Koran?

    Do go through the discussions in this forum that have touched upon most of what you wrote. Look for-

    banana republic
    the killing fields of Bengal

    Hindus are not a majority by Koranic definition. The Ummah, the world over, is more numerous than all the Dharmic traditions combined.

  36. @Aye from a Muslim…since u have taken my name…please read my comment..i have called the riots as state sponsered riots and called them bad…may b i shud have used stronger words condemning it…bt at the same time, its impoosible to belive they way godhra train victims are being potrayed..like villains who burnt thm thmeselves…..
    are you clear on my comment or shall we discuss further?

    u fear u will b forced to leave???? how? and where?

  37. @Kinjal:

    You wrote
    “In your worldview, an infection with Arabian origins has infested our national body, and you have the full backing of a glorious history to support your views. Delight then in the grand delusions of the past and try and rescue us poor mortals from our wallowing in the infected present”.

    Rishi’s response:
    Why call it a “grand delusion” when you yourself just confirmed the reality of Kalhana’s Kashmir, Kamboja and Gandhara?

    Is there something amiss in your mortal self and its extended intellect that is the cause of that?

    Anyway, this is not about grand delusions, but about learning from the past, so as not to repeat it.

    And yes, this is about rescuing poor mortals.

  38. What! You are breaking the code of conduct for bloggers and raising a issue that questions our secularism? Don’t you know that facts are optional when debating secularism in India?

    Pls don’t blog. Wait like other bloggers and then blame hindus for being communal, and while at it, make some wild claims such as hindus were not forced out of Kashmir by islamic militants. In fact RSS killed bunch of hindus (and highjacked that plane) to create troubles in an otherwise totally peaceful Kashmir.

    Sounds unreal, it won’t be after the Hindu, NDTV, left et al pick this news and prove it right

  39. I am sorry and embarrassed that I am a Hindu. The process of Islamic Republic of India has begun…run when you still can.

  40. @ @Kinjal : yeah, the very same, though no longer at IIT Kanpur. Who are you?

    @ Rishi Khujur : two-thousand year old glorious history….everything happy and perfect…dharma prevails…a veritable Ram Rajya in place….sometime later foreign infection arrives….thousand years of darkness prevail….then? fight down the foreign influences, reinstall the sanatana order, regain the lost glory and everything is wonderful again. I find this line of thinking grossly deluded, driven not least by a thorough
    perversion and misreading of history.

  41. @ Kinjal’s monologue
    thousand years of darkness prevails….then? fight down the foreign influences, reinstall the sanatana order, regain the lost glory and everything is wonderful again.

    Rishi’s correction to Kinjal:

    Fight down the absolutist exclusivists, reinstall the Hindu Dharma,regain some of the lost glory AND EVERYTHING IS RELATIVELY BETTER, with one less reason (And a very big one, given the past 100 years of proven history)FOR HATRED, SUFFERING AND DEATH.

    Enjoy Florida my friend…and continue with your self-denial and ostrichheadedness….abaar aashben

  42. Hindu wrote:
    “I am sorry and embarrassed that I am a Hindu. The process of Islamic Republic of India has begun…run when you still can”.

    Rishi’s response:
    Never say that..mate.
    We Hindus are far better off today than we were just a 100 years back (even though we lost a lot of land).

    Think, what would have happened had Vivekanand and Dayanand or Mastar Tara Singh, thought the same way?

    Atleast now the Hindus are in control of their own destiny. Despair not, its a generational quest. :)

    Bappa Rawal’s atma resides in one amongst us.

  43. @ Aye from an Indian Muslim:
    Thanks for template for my answer.
    From where I stand, I am an average Hindu. I don’t harbor hatred towards any community, I serve this country and its people more than most people of my generation and I pray that I can continue to do so until I die. I am undoubtedly Indian and and I am also Hindu – I carry both these identities proudly in my heart and I don’t see any contradiction between the two. I fight only in a dharmayudh (dharam is not equal or equivalent to religion). I have a vision for India and am sometimes unrealistically optimistic about whether it can be achieved.

    However, when Kashmiris talk of the a demography change there, it sends a shiver down my spine and a spear through my heart. I remember Punja 1947, Bengal 1947 and Kashmir 1989 tll date, . I remember the times when I was so violently reminded that I as a Hindu will never be able to live peacefully with my Muslim Countrymen whenever they are in a majority, just because of my religion. I come from enough privilege to be able to pack my bags and head west-ward, the way many, many of my peers (both Hindu and Muslim) have done. Yet, I stay back. I stay back because this is where my destiny lies. But as the number of “Yasin Maliks, “PDPs” and Jinnah, Suhawardy’s in this country increases, I fear that I will be forced to leave. But I will never do that. That is a promise. I will fight for justice and fairness at all costs. I will not let hisotry repeat itslef.

    I have never been able to understand how a minotry in any country always feel like it is being ‘wronged’, but on turning a majority never thinks of the minority at all. The ‘feeling of victimhood’ is certainly more a reality in India than anywhere else in the world.

  44. what i’m surprised about most of all is this:
    if media outlets in india are really dedicated to quality reporting, how come you are still researching in the US?
    By now, they should have offered you a big fat paycheck and should have been climbing over each other to be the first to hire you…

    hats off.. you’re sitting half a world away, and still come up with the best piece of investigative journalism on this issue.

  45. @ Kinjal: I see you believe that we should look in to the reason why Raj Thackery and his henchmen feel victimised. Hmm.. I do not have to argue at all.
    Oh btw. foreign power or not.. Kashmir or whatever is left of it.. is a part of India. Article 370 causes confusions, but screw it. The rule of law.. Indian Law that is has to run large over there. NOt separatists.

    Promise me no reference of Guj 02 riots, i promise no refence of GOdhra. And I apologise if you never bought Guj 02 up here. Must have confused myself then.

  46. @Rishi: Whenever there is mention of Gujarat, the stock reply is Godhra. Why nobody mentions the substantial drop in violence/law and order situation improvement in Gujarat after ‘THE’ event?

  47. There is a general feeling in the valley that it is discriminated against by the powers that be in New Delhi. This feeling started some 60 years back and has only deepened with the passage of events. Talk to an average Kashmiri and you can feel the mistrust under the surface. Ofcourse a lot of it is true, as can be seen by the recent issue of the discovery of mass graves, which rather unsurprisingly for a Kashmiri, was brushed under the carpet by most of the Indian mainstream media, including the so called anti-hindu newspapers.

    http://www.amnesty.org/en/appeals-for-action/thousands-lost-kashmir-mass-graves

    Even menbers of the EU parliament have gone ahead and labelled said that ‘human rights violations committed by the armed forces of India continue in an atmosphere of impunity’. Imagine the national furore if such a thing had occured in some other state. Thats what a Kashmiri means when he says that he feels like a second class citizen in India.

    Now coming to the Yatra issue, it has to be understood in the context of this mistrust. When people say that 40 hectares cant change the demographics of a state, it is absolutely true. But for the man on the ground, it seems like the first in a series of steps designed to further alienate him. To him, many promises have been broken in the past and he is very wary of any new thing. Further, there was a lot of resentment specifically against SK Sinha in the valley because of many other things he had done in the past. His high handedness and repeated coonfrontation with the CM was the reason for this. He increased the duration of yatra from 15 days to two months when the CM as well as the Mahant of the yatra were opposed to it. You can argue that since the no of pilgrims had increased greatly, the yatra needed to be extended. But why cant the number of yatris be restricted? Uttrakhand did it for Gangotri recently and nobody had any issues with that. The fact is that half a million people climbing up the glaciers does cause a lot of ecological damage. Its effect could be seen last year when the lingam melted during the yatra and was artificially created from dry ice on orders of the same SK Sinha.

    The fact is that Kashmiris are not against the yatra. They realize its economic benifits, as well as its history and the social impact it has. And this is the reason that the yatra was never stopped during the protests and is still going on peacefully. The agitation was never against hindus and the fact that it is a hindu pilgrimage is just incidental to the protests. The people were protesting against New Delhi. It is really unfortunate that BJP and VHP have potrayed it as an attack on Hinduism. What is even more sad is that it has given a new fillip to the separatists in Kashmir and given the militants a new propaganda piece. This had been till now one of the most peaceful summers in Kashmir, but unfortunately it looks like the curse on Kashmir is not yet over.

    ~ A Kashmiri

  48. I see much more detail and hard facts in this Kashmiri’s post than the regular Hindutva crew on this blog. Thanks.

  49. That was a very good analysis of the situation by A Kashmiri. The rest have all bitten the bug. At the slightest temptation jump for the nearest Hindu’s or Muslim’s neck. I am an average urban Indian. For the betterment of this nation, I wish that all my fellow countrymen will become educated and ratioanl citizens. So that no political party has to give out sops to minorities and no polotical party has the gust to start a hate campaign. I raise my toast to that beautiful India!

  50. Fuck Kashmir, never been there, heard it’s really beautiful, but the people in general seem like a bunch of twats. If these people want to economically and socially isolate themselves, as they successfully have, good for them. Less competition for me.

    Forget the whole Amarnath brigade of fat aunties on mules and the economic bounties it offers, wouldn’t it have been a whole lot better if we had a mini-silicon valley there? I’d work for a fifth of my price, just for the weather.

    Kashmir is already a lost cause. Their people had a chance at economic growth but instead bungled it by waging sectarian war instead of making money together. The Indian government is partly to blame for isolating them (article 370), but these people had have plenty of time to see what’s going around in the world and how they could improve their lives.

    If they haven’t, it’s out of their own wilful ignorance, and no god rewards the ignorant and the lazy.

    India would be better off just abandoning it entirely instead of subsidizing a sick state.

  51. “Hindus and Indians universally hated” … reality or gross generalization?? first part i can still relate with, but the second part i doubt…

  52. Well said. Its ridiculous how Hindus are subjected to so much discrimination and subjugation on the basis of “secularism”. Why don’t all the Muslims go to Pakistan or Bangladesh? What was the point of separating the country if they were going to stay back anyway?

  53. 1) If protection of Kashmiriyat is okay, then what is objectionable about Sena’s Marathi manoos theory? Why should only Kashmir people be allowed to preserve their so called uniqueness? Marathi, Bengali, Tamil and others are cultureless? Should not each and every state in our country try to protect its unique identity by keeping away outsiders?
    2) Having article 370 itself, indirectly accepts that Kashmir is not a part of our country and hence it requires special treatment.Money and maska to keep Kashmiri in good humour.
    3) All politicians have turn the issue purely in religious politics, so as to show their Indian brand of secularism.
    4) Would it be better if we just dump Kashmir people to their fate instead of trying to retain it? it will save lots of Indian lives and money.Let them enjoy Pakistani democracy and religion!!

  54. @ Kannan:

    I actually agreed with you on the Kashmir issue – read my post again. I don’t deny the reality of the exodus of Kashmiri Pandits from the valley. I know too many of them personally to be able to do that. What I took issue with was your sarcasm wrt the Gujarat issue. There is a whole lot of ambiguity about the burning of the train. A lot of it must be conspiracy theorizing. But there is no denying the fact that the ‘riots’ that followed were not ‘a natural reaction to Godhra’, but a well-planned pogrom. Your statements implied that the Muslims themselves were responsible for what happened in Gujarat (‘blame the victim mentality’ – so prevalent in our part of the world) and that is what I had a problem with. If I told you that you were responsible for your exodus for Kashmir, how would it make you feel?

    The fact that you can use my template to voice your own thoughts only reinforces all that is common in our experience of being Indian – denial of rights and alienation from our fellow countrymen, but along with that a belief that change will come and the need to strive towards that change. If anything, that should make it easier for us to understand each other’s plight. I am as afraid of the increasing numbers of Maliks as you – and you should be as afraid of the rising VHP fanatics as I am. But what scares me here is that Rishi Khujar is not a fundamentalist-fringe-right-wing-nut; he is the regular joe who comments on blog posts.

    @ Puntar (A kashmiri): Thank you for bringing some objectivity to this thread.

    @Kinjal: Thank you for seeing how asinine RK is. I heaved a sigh of relief to see that someone actually has the balls to disagree with him. As for the report on Godhra, I don’t want to bring up the issue here again, but if you email me, I can let you know where the case stands. You should be able to get my email addy from GB.

    @ Rishi Khujar: I will not dignify your remarks by responding to them. Your posts on this thread suggest that you are blinded by your prejudice and have a very dangerous vision for India. You will never see me as an equal and will continue to cast aspersions on my patriotism, irrespective of what I do or say. I do not wish to engage with you in any way.

  55. Rishi Khujur asked Mr. Aye one simple question: “Do you believe in the Koran?”

    And Mr. Aye’s evasive reply indicates why it is a difficult question to answer.

    Being a follower of “Arabic Imperialism” and calling yourself “an Indian patriot” is oxymoronic.

    One can’t be both at the same time.

    You can’t serve Arabian expansionist interests in India, and pretend to be working in India’s interests, can you?

  56. Aye from a Muslim wrote:
    (to Kinjal)Thank you for seeing how asinine RK is.
    (To Rishi)I do not wish to engage with you in any way.

    Rishi’s response:
    Thats one way of dealing with truth. Fair enough.

    Aye from Msulim wrote to Kannan
    “There is a whole lot of ambiguity about the burning of the train. A lot of it must be conspiracy theorizing”.

    Rishi’s response
    Really….60 Hindu women and children burnt alive by a 10% Islamic minority = ambiguity and conspiracy theory.

    Then Muslims causing 30% of the total casualty in the ensuing riots, inspite of forming just 10% of the population = well planned pogrom by the 90% Hindus.

    Denial is the name of a river in Egypt.

  57. It’s singularly unfair to blame “ethnic” Kashmiris(read Muslims) for the Amarnath fracas…..it was so damn clear that it was the handiwork of Hindu Fundamentalists(the inspiration for NGOs/humanitarian groups like LeT,JeM,HUJI etc)masquerading as locals.
    The pattern isn’t obvious only to such communalists who don’t know that all terrorist activities in and around India have always been carried out by Hindu terrorists who want to bring a bad name to the “Religion of Peace”.

    In fact all such Yatras/pilgrimages related to Hindus should be scrapped with immediate effect and all Hindu places of “worship” which are functioning independently should be brought under state control and “modified” into museums/parks/public conveniences to foster a sense of well being/”bhaaichaara”/”aapsi sadbhaav” among different sections of the society.All land owned by Hindu temples/maths/organisations should be transferred to the Wakf Board etc to correct the historical wrongs suffered by minorities.I am sure this can be another extension of that heart warming phrase-affirmative action.And of course since India’s a secular nation,all this n much more should be easily understandable as this nation stands for all religions but Hindusim is only “a way of life”, not a religion.

    And I feel really sorry for such nincompoops who keep bringing Godhra/Gujrat up.I mean it’s as clear as the water of the Dal lake(ok … the Wullar lake)that the fire was started by Kar sevaks to provide an excuse to start the deadliest pogrom since the Holocaust.It’s an altogether different matter the so called Holocaust hasn’t been researched by intellectual/independent/progressive “historians” like Romila Thapar,Irfan Habib etc and verified by NDTV/The Hindu et al,but lets refrain from superficialities.
    Now we all know that the angst leading to political dissent(which anti-nationals call terrorism) was borne in the gulags of Herr Modi’s Gujrat.
    “Ethnic cleansing” which was first incorporated into dictionaries worldwide post Gujrat underlined the basic blood thirsty nature of Hindus.Some enlightened souls who were aware of this much before Gujrat “happened” carried forward the tradition of Bhagat Singh/Chandrashekhar Azad and did what they could( n are still doing)for the larger good of the society.When social activists from all around the world came over to join these revolutionaries,anti nationals started crying “infiltration”,”cross border terrorism”.This’s a totally despicable state of affairs and needs to be looked into by all interested in a strong India.
    Its heartening when one observes feelings and views (or the lack of it)in a number of Hindus which allow them to analyse with critical dissociation the state of affairs in which they find themselves and the nation.After all the ability to dissect out one’s sins/follies ,feel guilt and accept that wrongs supposedly committed against one have valid reasons is sine qua non for a multicultural,secular,strong and vibrant India.
    Cheers

  58. Lets say ;
    Hinduism is way of life.
    Hindus want to really live in peace and harmony.
    Hindus don’t believe in any kind of holy war nor they feel that other religions are inferior or violent per se.
    Hindus think minority is a “minority” and their aspirations should be considered.
    Hindus believe that state and temple should be separate and Gita is not the final book of law.
    Hindus believe that pilgrimage is just one part of serving god.
    Hindus do not bandhs, morcha and killing in the name religion.

    Why cant so called protectors of Hinduism or Hindu way of life just leave that piece of degraded forest land.
    Cant they improvise in the existing place maybe built a Mall/Mega Structure around the temple.

    Common take a moral high ground FOR A CHANGE !

  59. @Sam:Exactly!I couldn’t agree more.
    Unless and until Hindus denounce and renounce Hinduism,they won’t be able to take a moral ground high enough to satisfy minority aspirations.

  60. Bengal Voice wrote:

    “Rishi Khujur asked Mr. Aye one simple question: “Do you believe in the Koran?”

    And Mr. Aye’s evasive reply indicates why it is a difficult question to answer.

    Being a follower of “Arabic Imperialism” and calling yourself “an Indian patriot” is oxymoronic.

    One can’t be both at the same time.

    You can’t serve Arabian expansionist interests in India, and pretend to be working in India’s interests, can you?”

    —-

    Hujur replies: Wow ! You took the words out of my mouth.

  61. Hello Aye from a Muslim,
    Thank you for acknowledging the Kashmiri Pandit ethnic cleansing. Do you also agree about the Partition? Do you think what happened was ok and who was the main cause for this and why? Do answer. It would be very revealing.

    You said
    “The fact that you can use my template to voice your own thoughts only reinforces all that is common in our experience of being Indian – denial of rights and alienation from our fellow countrymen, but along with that a belief that change will come and the need to strive towards that change. If anything, that should make it easier for us to understand each other’s plight.”

    I disagree. I can use your template just because every side can chose to play victim if it wants to really. As far as denial of rights is concerned, look no further beyond Article 370 and do consider the reasons why Article 370 was brought in to the first. Strike at the root of the problem. Let me assure you, we are not in a bad plight. Not you and neither me.

    With regards to Godhra, Rishi Khujur has actually stated facts in his response. Here is the extract for your ease/benefit:
    “Really….60 Hindu women and children burnt alive by a 10% Islamic minority = ambiguity and conspiracy theory.

    Then Muslims causing 30% of the total casualty in the ensuing riots, inspite of forming just 10% of the population = well planned pogrom by the 90% Hindus”

    . Counter them and face them. I believe you and Kinjal (who was commended for having balls to call RK names) can respond to this with clear facts.

    Also you mentioned that you find Rishi Khujur a right wing fundamentalist nut. Hmm.. why? What Rishi Khujur said which sounds like a fundamentatlist nut. I do not want to ascribe negative connotations to right wing and I do not believe right wing or left wing does justice to Indian way of thinking.
    And do count me in that list if you feel like it.

    And if you feel that “regular joes who comment on blog posts” are turning in to fundamentalist nuts, then please let us know why you think such a thing is happening. If you feel the number of “hardliners” amongst Hindus is increasing, do let us know why you think it is happening. Why does a VHP have to make some strident statements of intent? Did it come out of think air? Was there provocation?

  62. @ Aye from a Muslim

    In recent centuries, very few Hindu/Muslim riots can be called “pogroms”.

    Two that clearly stand out though and probably can be called “pogroms”, are the Mooplah riots in Kerala and Noakhali riots in presend day Bangladesh. PERPETRATORS IN BOTH THESE PLACES WERE FOLLOWERS OF KORAN.

    If you want to know what a pogrom is, read this book called “Noakhali! Noakhali! (second one in the link below).

    http://www.bengalgenocide.com/dem.php

  63. @Aye
    There are objectionable teachings in the Quran. Thats why i am concerned. plz suggest. Plz talk to your Qazi abt it. And tell us what he says.

  64. @anonymous coward
    I understand that politicians have always tried to capitalize on the minority sentiment. but if youre talking about giving unfair advantage, it would be no different from using caste politics. Where was the BJP when 27% reservation to OBCs was allocated ? Wasn’t that a case of the majority being pushed around ?

    @Great Bong
    “hospitality” is and will always be driven by financial reasons. There’s nothing right or wrong about it, and you have no right to judge whether its right or wrong. It’s a plain professional business.
    Do you expect free dharmsalas to be opened up in GOA ? Its easy to pick some words out of context and criticize them, but lets leave that job to 5 yr olds.

    I feel only deepshika here has the proper voice as she’s a local kashmiri. But for the rest of us… we are outsider. We are only guided by our innate religious sentiments, politics and media, not rationalism.

    How many of us have thought of setting up business in kashmir ? How many of us talk about developing kashmir’s economy and education. But when see a keyword line “hindu”, “muslim”, “nationalism” etc, our blood starts gurgling.

    I’m sure great bong’s post would have been different if he was a kashmiri muslim. Rishi Khujur’s post would have been different if he had lost his brother in riots in gujrat (hindu or muslim).

    My intention is not to point fingers towards anyone. I’m only asking everyone to stop spreading hatred in the name of intellectualism. I dont want anyone to give up their religion. I only want to remind that we are all human being first, and then hindus, muslims, mumbaiyyas or kashmiris.

    Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind… Do I sound cliched ? guess I am… but is anyone listening ?

  65. We, Hindu fundamentalists are the greatest Koranic experts in the world. We will drive out hate with hate, prejudice with prejudice, and install the true and perfect Dharma with a Saffron Revolution, and recover our lost glory in the world stage. In our Hindu Utopia, we will practise the truest form of living (for Hindutva is a way of life, not a religion), drive out all contaminants like the stooges of Chinese and Arabic imperialism. Ignorance is Strength! War is Peace!

  66. @ kranthi
    I have lost brothers, fellow humans and I lose them everyday.

    Thats the reason I go for the jugular. The root of the hate, so there is one less reason for people to die. People dont die because people want to kill for fun. People die because human ideologies effect human intellect into commiting the act of killing for watever reason.

    at this point of time, the biggest ideology of pure hate is expressed in the Koran.

    Read my reponse to Kinjal.

  67. @ to those that call me “hindu fundamentalist”

    The word “fundamentalist” applies to those that believe in the fundamentals of the religion, its core values.

    So while “fundamentalist” applies fine to those religions who fundamentals quite clearly express exclusivism and violent hatred towards the non-believers, with their followers applying those fundamentals with varying degrees of success.

    For example Usama bin Laden is a true Muslim fundamentalist, because he is following the fundamentals of Islam in it true form.

    I and most Hindutva activists, on the other hand probably fit more into the category of “reactionery”, for out activities are not scripturally ordained or divinely justified. It arises more from a temporary karmic response (almost reaching generational proportional against followers of Koran) , rather than a divinely ordained salvational goal.

    A true Hindu fundamentalist is quite far from me and probably sits in some cave in Kailasha in his quest for Moksha or spending his life’s earning in Tanjavur trying to get the best education for his children.

    As I say nomenclatures can win or lose wars.

  68. @Rishi

    “I have lost brothers, fellow humans and I lose them everyday.”
    Have you included your muslim brothers in those fellow humans ?

    “at this point of time, the biggest ideology of pure hate is expressed in the Koran.”

    Rishi, have you read the Koran yourself ?… Can you quote any verses which lead to your conclusion ? or are you coming to conclusions from what people misinterpret for promoting their personal propoganda.

    Mazhab ke naam pe hamesha se log chutiya banate aaye hai… aur log bante aaye hai.

    “The root of the hate”
    The root of the hate is neither in Koran, nor in Gita or Bible. The root of the evil is in the lack of understanding that blood has no religion. The root is in the indomitable desire to impose your ideology on others.

    Yes, I have read all your previous responses before responding myself.

  69. Rishi Bhai – it is better to be called fundamentalist, then to be called refugees. Recently been to Nalbari (Assam) – after about 12 years. It was like visiting Bangladesh – or better still East Pakistan. This is what was meant by the Mughalistan corridor and the idea is pretty close to reality

  70. MUMBAI GIRL’S PARENTS GET LIFE TERM FOR KILLING HER

    MEHNAZ, A RESIDENT OF NAGPADA, WAS KILLED BY HER PARENTS AND “MINOR” SISTER ON JULY 2, 2006, FOR BEING IN LOVE WITH A HINDU BOY.

    CNN-IBN [Published on Fri, Jul 11, 2008 at 14:00, Updated at Fri, Jul 11, 2008 in Nation section]

    http://publication.samachar.com/pub_article.php?id=2271003&navname=General &moreurl=http://publication.samachar.com/ibnlive/general/ibnlive.php&homeurl=http://www.samachar.com

    Mumbai: A Mumbai Sessions Court on Friday sentenced Mehnaz Bano’s parents to life imprisonment after holding them guilty of killing the girl and destroying evidence.

    MEHNAZ, A RESIDENT OF NAGPADA, WAS KILLED BY HER PARENTS AND MINOR SISTER ON JULY 2, 2006, FOR BEING IN LOVE WITH A HINDU BOY. The 18-year-old Mehnaz’s parents confessed to having strangled her.

    The Nagpada police tracked her father Mohammed Munna Khan through the identification of his employer’s company logo on the sacks. Khan and his wife Shehnaz Khan were arrested and during interrogation, they confessed to their crime.

    MEHNAZ’S FATHER ADMITTED HE CHOPPED HER BODY INTO 11 PIECES, AND DUMPED IT IN TWO SACKS beneath the Byculla flyover in South Mumbai.

    Their 14-year-old daughter, who was accused of abetting the crime, is in a juvenile home.

    =======================================================

    So a bit like the much vaunted and hollered, yet to date elusive “Kashmiriyat” we’re supposed to swallow.

  71. @ Bhopale
    Thanks for the thought on Ahom.
    Would you be interested to help in grassroot work in Ahom. Nothing too complicated.

    Mughalistan corridor is a real possibility. Bringing back the Muslim brethren back to Hinduism is the call of the hour, especially the educated ones who are relatively less influenced by Koran.

    Write to rishi_khujur@rediffmail.com

  72. @Rishi

    “I have lost brothers, fellow humans and I lose them everyday.”
    Have you included your muslim brothers in those fellow humans ?

    “at this point of time, the biggest ideology of pure hate is expressed in the Koran.”

    Rishi, have you read the Koran yourself ?… Can you quote any verses which lead to your conclusion ? or are you coming to conclusions from what people misinterpret for promoting their personal propoganda.

    “The root of the hate”
    The root of the hate is neither in Koran, nor in Gita or Bible. The root of the evil is in the lack of understanding that blood has no religion. The root is in the indomitable desire to impose your ideology on others.

    Yes, I have read all your previous responses before responding myself.

  73. @anonymous coward

    //he issue is not exactly the same. Haj is only for Muslims. The security etc provided during Durga Puja is a law and order issue. Muslims are free to participate in the celebrations, non-Muslims are not even allowed in Mecca!

    Durga Puja can be replaced by Kumbh Mela or other such Hindu festivals, where the duty of the state is to provide law and order.

    Puja Pandals are constructed on public roads.

    Why should a road paid for by the public’s taxes in a secular state be blocked at all for religious purposes?

    Law and order isn’t my point at all.

    //FYI, almost all big Hindu temples have government controlled boards which manage the funds. No such thing is done for Wakf properties. This selective interference by the government reeks of double standards.

    Aside from what I was trying to say but so what?

    Basically what this means is that the India govt. claims to me secular but manages religous affairs of the majority community!

    1) This means that the indian govt identifies more with the majority community and vice-versa. Thus it can take over hindu religious trusts.

    2) Whats yr point anyways? Isn’t it better that the govt manages these trusts than the corruption associated with clerics and priests!

  74. Hello Kranthi,

    I will try to briefly summarise what you are saying and respond to it. Please bear with me.

    1. Rishi has not read the Quran himself and uses interpretations that others have devised for their narrow ulterior motives to spread hate.

    2. The root of hate is not in the Koran, but in the indomitable desire to impose your ideology on others.

    My Points.

    1. Rishi has time and again provided translations of the hate filled verses from the Quran and the Hadiths and requested our Muslim Brothers to prove that they dont exist or have been misinterpreted. I have so far not seen a single response disproving either their existence or their interpretation. Have you read the Quran, Can you disprove them. If so pelase do so for my benefit.

    2. Incorrect. The root of hate IS IN THE QURAN.The verses quoted from the Quran clearly and unambiguosly propagate hate and subjugation. The Quran is explicit in commanding its followers to have an INDOMITABLE DESIRE TO IMPOSE ISLAM’S IDEOLOGY ON OTHERS.Therefore by your logic, the root of hate does RESIDE in the QURAN. If you still refuse to believe it, please try to count how many ISLAMIC Countries dont IMPOSE THE IDEOLOGY OF ISLAM on their respective populations and I am sure you will understand better where the root of hatred lies.

    Regards

    Sunil.

  75. Kranthi wrote:
    Rishi, have you read the Koran yourself ?… Can you quote any verses which lead to your conclusion ? or are you coming to conclusions from what people misinterpret for promoting their personal propoganda.

    Rishi’s response:
    Hmm newbie :)

    Read comments (with quotes and translations from Koran) by Khujur and Hujur in the following blogs by Greatbong.

    Banana republic
    Fashion Bomb
    the Killing Fields of Bengal

    Yes, I have read the Koran with a Muslim scholar from Al-Azhar (from Cairo), one of the most revered Islamic seminaries, if not the most.

    And no, there is nothing to interpret about Koran. It is the absolute “word of God” as given to Mohammad and that is how it has be be followed as per Mohammed.

    Hadees are open to interpretion

  76. @Sunil, Rishi,

    What I asked rishi a simple question, whose answer is a “yes” or “no”. If it makes you feel any better, let me admit to you I am not an expert in the Koran. But I firmly believe that all religions have fundamentally the same laws of good and bad.

    “I have so far not seen a single response disproving either their existence or their interpretation”
    Have you found a single response APPROVING their existense and interpretation ? Don’t make me do these childish arguments. It all boils down to what you WANT to believe.

    I’m just trying to say that love is better than hatred. Peace is better than war.

  77. Kranthi,

    So after all your verbal gymnastics, infliction of tortuous logic and skewering probes, what it all boils down to is :

    – You are far from an expert in the stance you purport to represent. In fact, it appears you are not even aware of the basics.

    – The protagonists you rail against turn out to be perfectly informed in their facts and knowledge.

    – Your convictions, however fervent and well-intentioned thay may be, stem not from reality, but your noble ‘desire’ to witness a better world.

    Do you agree with me when I call this a naiive and gullible approach? Do you agree with me that brandishing the Waffen SS executioner and the straggling Jewish partisan with the same brush may be politically dulcet, but factually and morally perverse?

    I can forgive you your naivete, but I cannot forgive you your self-assumed intelligence which forced us to waste a lot of our precious time in digesting your comments in the vain hope that their contents would turn out to be more than vapid.

    Alas, a vain hope. But in the long saga of ‘discussions’ between the aware and the soporific, an inevitable conclusion.

    Ho hum.

  78. Hades,

    Hi. A few major typos in your post

    Naraka mohashoy wrote : The India govt. claims to me secular but manages religous affairs of the majority community!

    Should be : The India govt. claims to me secular but ‘perversely MISmanages’ the religous affairs of the majority community!

    Shriman Patala wrote : “The indian govt IDENTIFIES more with the majority community and vice-versa. Thus it can take over hindu religious trusts”.

    Should be : “The indian govt “can blatantly and wantonly ABUSE more the majority community”, but “alas, not vice-versa”.

    It thus can AND BLATANTLY DOES “take over” hindu religious trusts”.

    H-E-L-L-baba wrote : “Isn’t it better that the govt manages these trusts than the corruption associated with clerics and priests”!

    I fully agree. The Indian govt is renowned worldwide for it moral purity and righteousness. I mean what sane religious organisation would not cut off a right hand to ensure a LALLOO or a SHIBU SOREN is not at their helm, directing affairs with perfect transparency and moral uprightness?

    As long as its a hindu right hand that’s cut off, it is perfectly fine.

    Wah wah. Tamasha dekhe jaao. Wah wah.

  79. Yes Kranthi

    I knew u dont know anything about the the hatred preached by the Koran. In fact, it is because u dont know, that u “believe” that all religions teach the same thing.

    Yes
    Love is better than hatred.
    Peace is better than war.
    I completely agree with you on that part.

  80. @ Kranthi:
    Since you mentioned, let me tell you that I include Muslims when i say “fellow humans”.

    To me, a Muslim is not the enemy, Islam is.
    Muslims are as much a victim of the Koran (and Islam), as the rest of humanity. WE have 1200 years of human history to prove that.

    In fact 70% of the Muslims in this world today, are children of Hindu converts(forced or coaxed). As as Hindus, I believe I owe it to humanity to bring them back to Hinduism and do my bit to destroy Islam.

  81. @Hara

    My sincere apologies for being a pain in your ass.

    “You are far from an expert in the stance you purport to represent”
    I do not purport any stance, and I am no expert. I am only asking people not to spread half-baked facts before fully verifying them.

    I’ve spent 3 days last week in house-arrest in curfew in a normally peaceful city like indore.
    Reality… reality is that most of the people involved in the violence were led by mob psychology. One rumor and they start killing each other.

    Apart from this I haven’t read any volumes about kashmir’s history or the islamic world. So i guess i’m not aware of “reality”.

    I agree with you that my approach is 100% naive and gullible. ( the rest of your paragraph, I was unable to understand)

  82. @Rishi
    “As as Hindus, I believe I owe it to humanity to bring them back to Hinduism and do my bit to destroy Islam.”

    Well, if they have commited evil, and you intend to do the same to them, how are you any different from them ?

    You seem to realize your duty as a hindu… but what is your duty as a human being ?

    If you truly believe that “Love is better than hatred. Peace is better than war.” How can you even talk about destruction ? When is this going to end.

    I am not expecting a reply. I am not going to reply on this message topic anymore. I’m tired.

  83. Hey Kranthi,

    Don’t take offence. You should take my comments to you in a humorous vein; they are intended as such.

    But on a more serious note, you don’t need to read ‘volumes and tomes’ before reaching a reasonable conclusion on critical issues.

    I hope the process of ratiocination that Rishi has taken you through proves that we are not peddlars of half-baked facts hinged on the fulcrum of human emotion. We are smart, intelligent, human beings, who have studied the facts, both past and present, from a myriad of angles and scenarios, and sadly, yes SADLY reach the same inevitable conclusion.

    That is why, in any debate between a secularist (sic) and Hindutvavaadi (sic square), if the debate focuses on FACTs, the latter wins hands down. This is because he has FACTS and TRUTH on his side.

    The H response to M tyranny cannot always be muted and prim.

    – It would be nice to assume that after 50 of their women and children were burnt alive by M fanatics in Godhra, the Hs should have gone to the government and said ‘our M brethren are not happy. Please increase our tax rates so the Haj supplement can be increased’.

    – It would be nicer for them to say “Ah, our M brothers are not satisfied with reservations and Article 370 & Sharia and mass breeding campaigns. Let us impose jizzya on ourselves, and pledge our firstborn daughters to their pleasures. Just as Gandhi would have wanted.

    Alas, sometimes us weak Hs fall short of the mark. Sometimes, very very rarely, very very far between, but nevertheless sometimes, Hs lose it and start retaliating.

    Very uncharacteristic. Very asynchronous (Ms killed 2 million Hs in Bangladesh. hs killed 700 Ms in revenge). But nevertheless, there.

    I suppose that its because sometimes Hs act human.

    That’s alright. ‘Global swarming’ and ‘Primate change’ will soon put paid to that.

  84. deshpremiyon….aapas mein prem karo desh premiyon……
    nafrat ki lathi todo….
    koi aage ke lyrics ga do

  85. @Rihsi…
    yeh lo

    nafarat ki laathi todo, laalach ka khanjar phenko
    zidd ke peechhe mat daudo, tum prem ke panchhi ho
    desh premiyon, aapas mein prem karo desh premiyon …
    dekho, ye dharati, ham sab ki maata hai
    socho, aapas mein, kya apana naata hai
    ham aapas mein lad baithe,
    ham aapas mein lad baithe to desh ko kaun sambhaalega
    koi baahar wala apane ghar se hamein nikaalega
    deewanon hosh karo, mere desh premiyon …

    meethe, paani mein, ye zehar na tum gholo
    jab bhi, kuch bolo, ye soch ke tum bolo
    bhar jaata hai gahara ghaav jo banata hai goli se
    par vo ghaav nahi bharata jo bana ho kadavi boli se
    to meethe bol kaho, mere desh premiyon …

    todo, deewaaren, ye chaar dishaaon ki
    roko, mat raahen in, mast havaaon ki
    poorab pashchim uttar dakkshin vaalon mera matalab hai
    is maati se poochho kya bhaashha kya isaka mazahab hai
    phir mujhase baat karo, mere desh premiyon …

    @an aye for muslim….can u give the bkgrnd music please?

  86. @deshpremi
    BTW forgot to tell u Islam dislikes music too (Taliban enforced it with vigor)….so all this nafrat/pyaar-songs will be tolerated with disdain in a Koranic backdrop.

  87. @Rishi

    Dont equate Taliban and Islam… Taliban are a perfect example of how people have misused the tag “Islam” for territorial domination.

    Homework for you..

    1. See the movie “Khuda ke liye”
    2. Read the novel “Kite runner”

    Although both are works of fiction, they’ll give you an idea how people have been misinterpreting koran to mislead masses.

    for your convenience http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xQ5Sq0NWVOA

  88. @Kranthi

    LOL….so your learnt your Koran by watching films and reading novels..?? ( Hint for you: Why don’t you read the Koran itself and know for yourself)

    The more you attempt to subjectively refute HHBB and Rishi’s solid arguments, more juvenile you are coming across.

  89. Yup, I agree with Kranthi. People are misinterpreting Koran to mislead masses. The Kashmiri Pandits up there and some who are still down here, should rest assured that their exodus has not been due to some preaching of the holy book, but due to misinterpretation of the same. So you have lost your ancestral homes, and may be your parents, but that was all misinterpretation. Many are today being forced out of Indian states bordering Bangladesh, their land being occupied by illegal muslim immigrants. They openly defy Indian rules, and run their own government of sorts. The security forces cannot act, as that would be against ‘Minorities’. But hey, that is all due to misinterpretation. Love is better than hatred, Peace is better than war, although we might end up being old men/women sitting in a Refugee camp somewhere. Then too we would be strengthened by the knowledge that Koran did not want this to happen, it was all misinterpretation. Do you know any family who were thrown out of Pakistan? Ask them how unbelievable it was for them when they heard about leaving their land forever, even as late as in 1946. And tell them that it was all misinterpretation …

  90. can someone tell me whr i wud get koran translated in english/hindi….link i mean….
    after so much discussion about koran, i really want to read it.

  91. @bhopale

    I’m not saying that everything is misinterpretation.

    I’m only saying that killing each other is not a solution. Our children wont end up in refugee camps if we (we includes everyone)learn to live in harmony. There is a very good chance that we’ll end up in refugee camps if we spread hatred.

    Both sides have painful memories of partition.

    @DoDo
    I guess i am a juvenile. A crazy person hoping for peace.
    I have repeatedly stressed that my knowledge is limited. But anyway, thanks for reminding me again.

  92. @Kranthi, I could not find any references about ‘killing’ anywhere in the discussions, please point out what you are referring to.

    A recurring theme is ‘Hindus kill Muslims as Muslims kill Hindus’ and ‘Hindus = BJP’, both of which are cliché and false. Nobody is killing muslims dear, just be aware of the unfolding scenario. Ignorance and ‘shturmurg’ both are not very prudent options

  93. Thanks Kranthi for that movie…..it’s really nice…very topical and very emotionally engaging…the only criticism is things are characters are a bit too simplistic….but what the heck! art has the license to be simple if it’s beautiful, and this one’s got the power to get the message across as well.
    Thanks to GB also for his as usual-incisive posts. It’s only because I differ on some points of politics that I comment on your blog…thanks for hosting a spirited but civil discussion on such a sensitive debate.
    @Rishi : your style and content both seem familiar from our iitk newsgroup days :) not much hasn’t changed since then in our positions except that you seem to have become an activist of some sort.

  94. Hello Kranthi,

    You wrote –

    “Have you found a single response APPROVING their existense and interpretation ?”

    My Response:

    The verses have been quoted right out of the Quran. What do you want me to do – go and ask people to approve of them? They exist in the Quran and if people think that they dont exist or have been misinterpreted the onus is on those people (like yourself) to disprove them.

    You said –

    “Don’t make me do these childish arguments.”

    My response –

    You have not read the Quran, you cannot disprove the verses in question, you dont have any knowledge of the the history of Islam and the kashmir conflict(by your own admission), your arguments are based on your (unsubstantiated)BELIEF that “All Religions have Fundamnetally the same laws of good and bad”, and yet you call our arguments childish. Look in the mirror my friend.

    You wrote –

    “It all boils down to what you WANT to believe.”

    My Response –

    It DOES NOT boil down to what you want to believe. The Hs in Noakhali wanted to believe that no harm would befall them from their Muslim Brethren, the people who were massacred by the Moplahs wanted to believe that they would not be harmed due to the ramifications of an event that took place thousands of miles away from their country and had no bearing on them, the Hs in Kolkata wanted to believe that “Direct Action” meant the Muslim League was going in to the Direction of Action Films as a side business, the Hs and Sikhs of Punjab wanted to believe “Pakistan” was the name of of a new book on Shayari composed by Allama Iqbal, the Pandits of kashmir wanted to believe that “asi gachi Pakistan, bata ros te batnev san” was Sufi song composed by their Muslim Brethren in their honour. It does not boil down to what you want to believe, It boils down to what the facts and the logic derived from those facts tells you.

    You said – “I’m just trying to say that love is better than hatred. Peace is better than war.”

    My take –

    I agree, but both hatred and war are better than submission to “Adharma” (not in the religious sense) and suicide.

    Regards,

    Sunil.

  95. @bhopale
    I am not going to talk about all incidents, but only this one as I was there when it happened.

    I was in indore when the violence happened. I never said these were done by a particular sect.
    Only thing i know is it was done by human beings, and other human beings suffered.

    I agree with you that both cliches you specified are false. Being a hindu myself I know that. There were similar cliches about other religions which were being spread which i was asking people to stop.

    “Ignorance and ’shturmurg’ both are not very prudent options”
    not pretending to be a know-all is not the same as being ignorant.

  96. Hello Kranthi,

    The posts that you should have read before asking for the verses have already been specified by Rishi in his responses to you.

    Regards,

    Sunil.

  97. Kranthi, by ignorance I do not mean your not reading Koran. Do you know that in late 1990s, in the ‘Bhala Beg’ era of Bombay Bazar Indore, the Indian police was not allowed to enter the area. Ask ‘Bade Bhaiya’ (Shuklaji) of Baneswari, he would tell you, how shariat rules were (is?) followed, right in ‘Hindustan ka dil’, leave alone the displacement of Hindus in border areas.

    It is important to fight back the ideology, and until you are aware you cannot fight. Don’t be a Hindu, at least be an Indian! Is it asking for too much to adhere to the rule of the land?

  98. well said sunil !
    But we need the educated Ms on our side. coz what we are talking is factually and rationally correct.

  99. I just read abt moplah and Noakhali tragedies. Hindu Women (and specially from affluent families) were special target .

  100. Hello Sunny,

    Hindu women have always been a special target. We trace it down to the “what your right hand possess” principle in Islam. My friends from the other side have more inventive notions about the cause of such barbarism (class struggle, economic deprivation, political alienation etc etc).

    Regards

    Sunil.

  101. @Hades:

    Roads are blocked for all – believers and non-believers. Haj is only for ‘believers’. For taking out processions etc, I think that police permission needs to be sought. All processions, both religious and non-religious are allowed. As long as we have the principle that its OK to block roads etc for some function, you cant really complain. You have a fundamental right to assemble peacefully, and these people are doing just that.

    As far as government interference in Hindu temples is concerned, I have serious doubts whether it is less corrupt than priests/clerics. Why should the government have control over the earnings of temples ? It may and indeed use that money for ‘secular’ purposes, whereas the donors had no desire for their money to be used in such a manner. I would like my donation at Tirupati to help towards maintenance of the temple and promotion of Hinduism, not for subsidizing Haj.

    Why should the government decide whether women should be allowed in Sabrimala temple ? Have you ever heard the government demand that women be allowed to offer namaz along with men ? Why should non-Hindu government officials sit on the boards of Hindu shrines ? A supposedly secular state has no business interfering with Hindu shrines. The government in no way identifies with the majority community, it just likes to screw them because there will not be repercussions.

  102. The Khujur and HHBB are back in business again!!! GB, man, sometimes I wonder if you didn’t put out these posts once in a while, what would happen to these poor guys…

  103. @ Pakele : The Khujur and HHBB are back in business again!!! GB, man, sometimes I wonder if you didn’t put out these posts once in a while, what would happen to these poor guys…

    Hmmm. Thanks for your concern Pakele. FYI :

    – I am a management consultant, and the youngest Indian member to be appointed to this post in this international concern.

    – A good portion of my time is spent in ventures around the world. I assure you, I have seen more of the world in 29 years than you will ever see in your life. Thus I am far more informed than you.

    So you see I do not spend my days yearning for the opportunity to cross my wits with the vapid and hollow bayings of the secular camp constituted by the likes of you know who.

    I am sure Rishi is the same. Contrary to the image fabricated by ‘seculars’, the Hindutvavaadi camp (whatever that is) comprises intelligent, smart, articulat, but most of all, aware and well-informed young people from the entire gamut of the Hindu social, economic and intllectual spectrum.

    That is why in any sincere debate that focuses on facts, we win hands down. And the only recourse the seculars have is petulant flight (see one of your members above), a big slurpy pink hissy fit, or snide remarks about their intllectual betters.

    Love and kisses

  104. bala hari hari bol, sorry hara hara bom bom – wow, you are really accomplished. Laser sharp intellect, witty, well-travelled, ready to defend him/herself whatever the provocation – you got it all. I wish I can be like you when I grow up. Do you have any posters of your’s that I can buy? Do you give out incense sticks with it too, and marigold flowers? I virtually supplicate myself in your general direction.

  105. PS: Are you good looking? You must be. Power & confidence ooze out of every word, even the ones without the letter ‘e’. Wish you had mentioned that in your spirited response to Pak-ele. That would have shown him/her, especially when you magnanimously offered your love & kisses.

  106. HHBB,

    This is Pranab Roy.

    Just FYI….I’m not sure who this “Pankaj Roy” character is…probably a split personality of the schizophrenic “Pakele”.

    Just like some impersonator tried posting the Rishi “Khejur” moniker earlier.
    :D

  107. @Pankaj, Pranab Pakele et al…

    Can we refrain from personal namecalling such as “poor guys” etc..

    Let us keep the spirit of the discussion. Request you to attack the perspective/ arguments HHBB and Rishi are presenting rather than ridiculing them.

  108. @anonymous coward

    //Roads are blocked for all – believers and non-believers. Haj is only for ‘believers’.//

    See, therein lies, what I think , is yr problem. Why compare India to the countries of the middle east? Are we, in any way, competing with a country like Saudi Arabia? Don’t gloat over the fact that we are more secular that a theocarcy which is also a monarchy! Be sad about the fact that we aren’t as secular as a lot of other countries.

    Also, for arguments sake, I DON’T care why the roads are blocked. If you want to pray to yr 12 armed goddes or offer namaaz to yr genocidal god,do it but DO IT WITHOUT BOTHERING ME!

    //For taking out processions etc, I think that police permission needs to be sought. All processions, both religious and non-religious are allowed. As long as we have the principle that its OK to block roads etc for some function, you cant really complain. You have a fundamental right to assemble peacefully, and these people are doing just that.//

    Blocking the city for days on end is a fundamental right? Imagine how much it costs the city to organise the pujas. Then compare this to the Haj subsidy.

    Yup, we’re one glorious country.

    //As far as government interference in Hindu temples is concerned, I have serious doubts whether it is less corrupt than priests/clerics. Why should the government have control over the earnings of temples ? It may and indeed use that money for ’secular’ purposes, whereas the donors had no desire for their money to be used in such a manner.//

    Let me ask you, which govt controls the Tirupati Temple? Is it the central govt, to which the NDA had control over for 6 years, or is it the state govt over which the NDA had control over for 10 years?

    //I would like my donation at Tirupati to help towards maintenance of the temple and promotion of Hinduism, not for subsidizing Haj.//

    And i would like my taxes to help the poor not to help poeple make pilgrimages or feed preists in temples.

    //Why should the government decide whether women should be allowed in Sabrimala temple ? Have you ever heard the government demand that women be allowed to offer namaz along with men ? Why should non-Hindu government officials sit on the boards of Hindu shrines ? A supposedly secular state has no business interfering with Hindu shrines. The government in no way identifies with the majority community, it just likes to screw them because there will not be repercussions.//

    The govt interfering in hinduism has been the best thing since sliced bread for the country. Look at Islam and look at Hinduism. Please do learn a bit abt how the set of hindu personal laws were passed in the 50s by Nehru. But that’s my view. If you feel Hindus should also be governed by archaic laws akin to muslim law, you know the manusmrit and all that, instead of modern laws made my modern lawmakers, then thats yr view.

    Of course, yr view is also the view of the Taliban, but don’t let that deter you, my good man.

  109. @ Hara hara bom bom

    //The India govt. claims to me secular but ‘perversely MISmanages’ the religous affairs of the majority community!//

    An Indian govt elected by an electroate which is 85% Hindu, does all this , right?

    Look my man when you say that successive indian govts over 60 years elected mostly by hindus are insidioudly taking over hindu temples surely something has to give, no?

    //Should be : “The indian govt “can blatantly and wantonly ABUSE more the majority community”, but “alas, not vice-versa”.

    It thus can AND BLATANTLY DOES “take over” hindu religious trusts”.//

    Same argument.

    //H-E-L-L-baba wrote : “Isn’t it better that the govt manages these trusts than the corruption associated with clerics and priests”!

    I fully agree. The Indian govt is renowned worldwide for it moral purity and righteousness. I mean what sane religious organisation would not cut off a right hand to ensure a LALLOO or a SHIBU SOREN is not at their helm, directing affairs with perfect transparency and moral uprightness?

    As long as its a hindu right hand that’s cut off, it is perfectly fine.//

    So, the indian govt for 6 (long?) years also consisted of advani and vajpayee. Surely they werent’t “secular”. I’m sure they must have revoked all these temple trusts, no?

    Btw, isn’t it hypoctical that you criticize all these temple boards yet you are in favour off land allotment ot eh amarnath temple shrine board, another govt board?

    //Wah wah. Tamasha dekhe jaao. Wah wah.//

    dekha bahi dekha. Ek temple board shaitan hai tho ek shrine board bhagwan.

  110. @Hades
    //See, therein lies, what I think , is yr problem. Why compare India to the countries of the middle east? Are we, in any way, competing with a country like Saudi Arabia? Don’t gloat over the fact that we are more secular that a theocarcy which is also a monarchy! Be sad about the fact that we aren’t as secular as a lot of other countries.//

    I am not comparing India to Saudi Arabia. I was just saying that when the INDIAN government spends MY tax money for Haj subsidy, it is discriminating between ‘believers’ and ‘non-believers’. When roads are blocked (your pet peeve), they are blocked for EVERYONE. In one case, secular government discriminating, in other case it isnt.

    Now coming to principle of blocking roads themselves. We as a nation seem to have accepted the idea that blocking roads to protest, take out processions, hartals etc is OK. It could be the atheist communists protesting against George Bush or some religious group. So as long as blocking roads is acceptable, whether the reason is religious or non-religious doesn’t matter. We have a fundamental right to assemble peacefully and if the accepted principle is that we can coolly assemble in the middle of the road, we will go ahead and do that. Of course it sucks big time for those who dont believe in the ’cause’ for the roadblock.

    Regarding Tirupati, take a look at this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirumala_Tirupati_Devasthanams . Apparently the state government is in control. Naidu was part of United Front government till 1998. NDA ruled from 1998-2004, a period of 6 years. Naidu was booted out in the 2004 elections. So stop throwing incorrect figures like there was an NDA goverment in AP for 10 years.

    //And i would like my taxes to help the poor not to help poeple make pilgrimages or feed preists in temples.//

    As things stand, your taxes go to help people make Haj pilgrimages. Temple priests are fed by donations to the temples. I don’t know of any temple which is maintained by the government. Anyway, how is it relevant to my point about a donation at Tirupati. Taxes are involuntary and you have no idea how the government will allocate money in the budget. But a voluntary donation to a Hindu temple; I have pretty high expectations that the money will go towards Hinduism, not Haj.

    And now coming to the very interesting point you raised about government interference. Why is the government not turning its reformist zeal towards Islam ? Leaving aside whether its good or bad, a secular government should either leave Hinduism alone, or try to reform other religions as well. This selective approach reeks of double standards, which are the hallmark of Indian secularism. I dont want to live under medieval laws, but it seems that AIMPL wants that for Indian muslims. The BJP is for Uniform Civil Code, but unfortunately, no other party is supporting it.

  111. @ Kinjal

    I live near Washington DC.
    IIT karagpur or Kanpur. ….naah…u r confusing with some other guy (makes me happy to see that IITK has some of us there).

    But yes, I am an activist and hope to be really useful before my soul leaves his body.

    Give me this IITK guy’s email id. Will try to get him into activism.

    rishi_khujur@rediffmail.com

    @ kranthi
    Was away from the internet the past 2 days. At a VHP summer camp. I appreciate your well meaning innocent feelings. But do read my comments in Greatbong’s previous articles, named

    “Banana Republic” and “Killing Fields…”

    I hope historically, Raja Ganesh of Bengal was not as innocent as you are.

    @ Bhopale
    Thanks for contacting me.

    @ Sunil
    Yeah man! Its horrifying to read about the Noakhali riots.
    Even Sucheta Kriplani (who was one of the few Hindus to visit the riot effected areas), the wife of the then Indian National Congress President Acharya Kriplani(quite a powerful position for an Indian those days), was forced to carry poison with her (for commiting suicide), out of fear of getting raped by the followers of Koran.

  112. @ Pankaj Roy
    “I wish I can be like you when I grow up”.
    Well, that is being highly optimistic, but you can try. :-)
    Incidentally, how old are you now? 10 or 11?

    “Do you give out incense sticks with it too, and marigold flowers?”
    No. Dahlias.

    “I virtually supplicate myself in your general direction.”
    Beta, I virtually accept your supplication.

    “Are you good looking?”
    I blush, but I am. I was considered real stud material in SP & St Xav. I have put on a few kilos now that I’m nearing the 30 mark, but I still have the biceps left. Well, some of it at leastt !!

    “you magnanimously offered your love & kisses”.
    Ahh, but I was being sarcastic. But then again why are you interested in my looks? I am a happily married man with two kids (yes, proud father of a new born boy in March). You wouldn’t stand a chance, whether Rimmer or not.

    Love and kisses to you too. Smooch smooch.

  113. @Hades “An Indian govt elected by an electroate which is 85% Hindu, does all this , right?”

    Hi Hades,
    Your other points revolve around the tenet that a government elected by 85% Hindus is bound to be pro-Hindu.

    Please note that India does not have 85% Hindus. It has 85% people who are not Muslim, Christian or Jewish. For most of them, Hinduism is a nominal denomination. They do not feel an iota of respect, reverence, interest, concern or vested involvement to Hinduism.

    Even those who are climbed out of total apathy bear certain unique traits that recur in Hinduism far more than other communities. The gamut includes :
    (1) Extreme benevolence to the other, at the cost of depriving ones own.
    (2) A remarkable readiness to forgive insults and attacks
    (3) A breathtaking naiivete in trusting people who have time and again expressed their malice and ill will.
    (4) Refusal to accept inconvenient facts, and a firm insistence that things will work out.
    (5) Complete ignorance of how others truly view and treat them.
    (6) Stark and rank cowardice.

    Some of these are hard coded in our DNA (plural Hindu ehtic leading to 1 & 2, a universal approach to responsible for 3). Others are a product of cultural and historical developments over a millenia.

    Let’s face it. If the 85% you cite were truly Hindu, they would take steps to positively progress the lot of the Hindus. Under their bening aegis Hindus would not quiver in terror on blood-stained borders (Bangladesh, Bengal, Assam, Kashmir, Kerala), while the roots of Hinduism are systematically dismantled from the centre (Janpath, Andhra Pradesh, etc).

    If this blog is used as a rough sample, you will see that 25% of the populace actually feels for Hinduism. The rest are either ignorant, apathetic, or hostile to the fate of Hindus.

    Even where they feel for Hinduism, their outlook is inaction in the face of encroaching disaster.

    The growing menace of Anti-Hindu elements, political, religious, social and economic, merely exploit these loop-chasms.

    And thus the Hindus suffer.

  114. @ Hades
    “Be sad about the fact that we aren’t as secular as a lot of other countries”.

    I am exceptionally sad about the fact that we are not as secular as a lot of other countries.

    Which country in the world tolerates people who have brutalised them for over 1,300 years with no recrimination or retaliation? After the Germans were defeated in WWI, all their territories in Poland, Warmia, Masuria et all were forcibly taken away. After they lost in WW2, millions of Germans were driven out of Poland. I am sad we are not as secular as the Poles and Russians.

    Which country in ther world meekly accepts stark vivisection of its nation based on a stark religious argument, has millions of its own people murdered or thrown out of the wrested territories, then allows the broods of the people who raised the blood-curling murder cries to stay on? We should have been as secular as Pakistan and Bangladesh, where a 35% pre-partition population has plumetted to 0.6% in Pak.

    Which country allows its ex-murderors special privilege in almost every aspect of life? Job reservation, education, mass breeding programmes, religious preference, intellectual dyeing. After the Magna-Greek campaign and invasion of Turkey was defeated at the end of WW1, every single Greek was kicked out of Turkey. There were state sponsored massacres of Greeks in Smyrna (Izmir). I weep that we do not act like secular Turkey.

    Finally, I weep that while Communistically secular (atheist) China executes its terrorists and then charges terrorist sprogs for the funeral costs, tyrannising their communities into submission, we erect ivory towers for our terrorist communities and feed their fires of wrath with ever increasing Danegeld.

    I weep that India is the only country in the world to act with such egregious cowardice and sycophancy, and that it does not act with the same degree of zeal and passion as secular nations.

  115. I am very glad my ancestors converted to islam from hinduism so dont feel sorry for me. In feel sorry for you guys continue to flase dreams of rescuing muslims from islam.

  116. @ null

    what is so great about islam anyway??
    Probably you’ll be able to explain me this:
    >The allah said: THE GATES OF PARADISE ARE UNDER THE SHADOWS OF SWORD (ref: shahi muslim, book 020, number 4681)
    or may be >about pedophilia..( for reference see Sahih Bukhari, volume 5, Book 58, number 234)
    or may be:
    > Koran(8:12)Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): “I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them.”
    or
    > Koran (69:30-37) “(It will be said) Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in God the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat.”

    and I can give you more and more on this…

    before that tell me one thing: How do u actually feel about the fact that maybe, just maybe, your ancestors were also brutally tortured and threatened before they gave up to islams..

  117. HINDUISM PREACHES:
    WAR SHOULD BE AVOIDED AS LONG AS POSSIBLE, AND WHEN THERE ARE NO OTHER WAY LEFT THEN AND THEN ONLY WAR SHOULD BE FOUGHT. WAR SHOULD BE THE LAST RESORT, IF THERE LIES NO OTHER SOLUTION.
    For Hinduism never preaches war, violence against innocent people. Though, if adharma takes over our system one must fight for his justice. It is the right of not only the kings( read politicians, military heads, president) but also the countrymen to fight against adharma.
    About non-beivers, all the lord( in GITA) says is this:
    “The atheistic planmakers are described herein by the word dus?kr?tinah?, or “miscreants.” Kr?t? means one who has performed meritorious work. The atheist planmaker is sometimes very intelligent and meritorious also, because any gigantic plan, good or bad, must take intelligence to execute. But because the atheist’s brain is improperly utilized in opposing the plan of the Supreme Lord, the atheistic planmaker is called dus?kr?t?. which indicates that his intelligence and efforts are misdirected.” ( ref: Bhagwat Gita, 7.15)

    Never does he says slay them. But if that ignorant person tries to convince you of his intentions then oppose him and help him to see the truth. Help people to get liberated and wise. don’t instigate unjust wars and adharma. Raping women and children, threatening, looting and murdering innocent people( be it a H or M) and conversion is not only wrong but is a great sin.

    Watch the documentary FITNA in youtube..for a better understanding what a eunuch islamiyat has made all the govt in the world..

    Today we are denied our own land, not even an iota of it.. today we are not allowed to settle in our own land.. we see thousands of examples in front of us everyday of Islamic fundamentalism, yet we choose to remain not only silent but we choose to remain dumb.. even Kunti blindfolded her eyes from the world but she never blindfolded her soul..so why should we do that..

    agreed, there is no greater religion than humanity, but is this humanity that we are breeding?? a bad rotten apple can rot the entire basket of apples.. so is it not wise to throw the bad apple? we can not sit and watch each and every apple go bad one by one….

    A wise muslim will easily avoid those satanic verses of Koran which spells blood and would seek liberation through Peace and love.. an ignorant muslim follows them and becomes a threat to the society.
    Hindus have remained largely compassionate, caring and welcoming to our guests/invaders(including muslims), but there has to be a line drawn somewhere..

  118. Completely agree with you Greatbong. The worst part is that religious fanaticism is so ingrained in the minds of most muslims that they wil try to defend even the most indefensible of things, which means they will never budge from their stand, no matter how unreasonable, which in turn will render discussions with them pointless.

    We now await a post on the Ayeasha (Asha) Patil incident.

  119. @ Andy_pundit

    The verse 8:12 is part of Sura Al-Anfal (Spoils of War) and in these verses an event of war is being illustrated, and the Almighty is describing the way in which he helped believers, kindly refer to the verses below:

    008.009 When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank.

    008.010 Allah appointed it only as good tidings, and that your hearts thereby might be at rest. Victory cometh only by the help of Allah. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise.

    008.011 When He made the slumber fall upon you as a reassurance from him and sent down water from the sky upon you, that thereby He might purify you, and remove from you the fear of Satan, and make strong your hearts and firm (your) feet thereby.

    008.012 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

    008.013 That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.

    Andy I do not think there is anything offensive about the verse you have stated, also you just mentioned verse 008:012 but forgot to site following verses from the same Sura:

    008.019 (O Qureysh!) If ye sought a judgment, now hath the judgment come unto you. And if ye cease (from persecuting the believers) it will be better for you, but if ye return (to the attack) We also shall return. And your host will avail you naught, however numerous it be, and (know) that Allah is with the believers (in His Guidance).

    008.038 Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning).

    008.039 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.

    008.040 And if they turn away, then know that Allah is your Befriender – a Transcendent Patron, a Transcendent Helper!

    008.060 Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.

    008.061 And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.

    008.062 And if they would deceive thee, then lo! Allah is Sufficient for thee. He it is Who supporteth thee with His help and with the believers,

    In these verses Almighty is clearly commanding believers to fight only if they are attacked. Moreover peace has been preferred over war. He has also commanded that believers should cease fighting (with non-believers) as soon as persecution(of believers) is over.

    The second verse that you have stated i.e. 69:30-37 is from Sura Al-Haqqa (The Sure Reality) and verses 30-37 describe the fate of those (on the day of judgment) who did not conform to the commands/ will of the Almighty. As with the verse 008:012 I don’t think that there is anything objectionable about these verses either. I do not know about you but I interpret these verses as a warning, and I will try to do good deeds so that I am spared from this fate. Here again you just mentioned these eight verses and nothing before of after these verses.

    Please stop spreading the propaganda of hate by quoting verses of Quran out of context. I too can quote verses from Gita or Ramayana that can be used to vilify Hinduism but that is not my intent.

    In this post a lot of voices have been raised against Haj subside, I think majority of educated Muslims will conform to my view that Government should scrap Haj subsidy because a Muslim is supposed to go for Haj pilgrimage only if he can afford it. But just as Reservation, Haj subsidy is a major a vote bank issue and hence no party will/can dare revoking it.

    The post from Greatbong is a very well written post and in my opinion the issue of awarding land to SASB is a economical (livelihood of a lot of Kashmiris depend on Amarnath yatra) and hence a political issue rather than being a religious issue. Do let me know if you think otherwise.

  120. whats so great about hinduism anyway ?
    how do I feel if any ancestors were threatened with molten lead for daring to be near brahmins or be excluded from wells because they were “polluted” ?
    quoting random bits from the Quran and hadith won’t do
    a principle or a law is extracted by considering the relevant verses of the Quran and the hadith and classical works of law and today’s reality.

  121. @null

    No need to get offensive, a number of people in this forum do not know what they are talking about. Forget Quran many of them probably haven’t read Gita or else that would not have posted such comments. They too are victim of hate propaganda of political parties whose interests are vested in suffering/killing of human beings (when riots happen atrocities are suffered/committed by both hindus as well as muslims).

    Always remember – Eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

  122. @HHBB:
    “- I am a management consultant…blah blah…Thus I am far more informed than you.
    …blah, blah…
    That is why in any sincere debate that focuses on facts, we win hands down…blah blah”

    Awesome!!
    Hey, I know you! You are GOD!! That’s right, the same omnipotent one!!
    Tell me, is it true that when you pee it rains?

  123. @ A Small Clarification

    Thanks for the clarification …interesting how when something is taken out of context, it can give it a completely differetn meaning. And, interesting how some people rely on such immature ways of spreading propoganda!

  124. @ An Ode to the Fundoos
    “HHBB, is it true that when you pee it rains?”

    Only when YOU have your mouth open. :-)

  125. Hello “A small clarification”,

    Thank You. Can we clarifications on the following as well – They are from the Calcutta Quran Petition, the filing of which led to –

    “The petition by Chandmal Chopra also led to many riots in India and Bangladesh.

    The Statesman reported that “at least 12 people were killed and 100 wounded all are poor Hindus” in a border town of Bangladesh during a demonstration of 1000 people.[12] In Dhaka, at least 20,000 Jamaat-i-Islami supporters demonstrated against the petition. The demonstrators were trying to storm the office ot India’s High Commission. [13][14] Other riots followed in Kashmir and Bihar.[15]

    After the case was closed, the Chief Minister of Jammu and Kashmir, during a mass rally in Srinagar, demanded action against Justice Padma Khastgir who permitted the petition to be filed. During this mass rally, one person was killed and others injured.[16] A “hartal” (strike) against the interference in Muslim personal law was observed during which all shops and colleges were closed.”

    From Wikipedia.

    Sayings of ?Koran? which Preach Cruelty,
    Incite Violence and Disturb Public Tranquility

    Surah 2: ayat 193.
    Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah?s religion reigns supreme.

    Surah 8: ayat 39.
    Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah?s religion reigns supreme.

    Surah 2: ayat 216.
    Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. Allah knows, but you do not.

    Surah 9: ayat 41.
    Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. This will be best for you, if you but knew it,

    Surah 9: ayat 123.
    Believers! make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you.

    Surah 66: ayat 9.
    O Prophet! make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal sternly with them. Hell shall be their home, evil their fate.

    Surah 9: ayat 73.
    O Prophet! Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites. Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is Hell, a hapless journey?s end.

    Surah 8: ayat 65.
    O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there are twenty steadfast men among you, they shall vanquish two hundred; and if there are a hundred, they shall rout a thousand unbelievers, for they are devoid of understanding.

    Surah 8: ayat 66.
    Now bath Allah lightened your burden, for He knoweth that there is weakness in you. So if there be of you a steadfast hundred they shall vanquish two hundred, and if there be of you a thousand steadfast they shall vanquish two thousand by permission of Allah. Allah is with the steadfast.

    Surah 47: ayats 4-15.
    When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads and when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take ransom from them, until war shall lay down her armour. Thus shall you do. Had Allah willed, He could Himself have punished them (without your help); but He has ordained it thus that He might test you, the one by the other. As for those who are slain in the cause of Allah, He will not allow their works to perish. He will vouchsafe them guidance and ennoble their state; He will admit them to the Paradise He has made known to them.

    Believers! if you help Allah, Allah will help you and make you strong. But the unbelievers shall be consigned to perdition. He will bring their deeds to nothing. Because they have opposed His revelations, He will frustrate their works? Allah is the protector of the faithful; unbelievers have no protector. Allah will admit those who embrace the true faith to gardens watered by running streams. The unbelievers take their full of pleasure and eat as the beasts eat; but Hell shall be their home? They shall abide in Hell for ever and drink scalding water which will tear their bowels.

    Surah 8: ayat 12.
    I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, maim them in every limb.

    Surah 69: ayats 30-33.
    We shall say, ?Lay hold of him and bind him. Bum him in the fire of Hell, then fasten him with a chain seventy cubits long. For he did not believe in Allah, the Most High.

    Surah 8: ayats 15-18.
    Believers! when you encounter the armies of the infidels do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons, or to join another band, he shall incur the wrath of Allah and Hell shall be his home: an evil fate.

    It was not you, but Allah, who slew them. It was not you who smote them; Allah smote them so that He might richly reward the faithful. He hears all and knows all. He will surely thwart the designs of the unbelievers.

    Surah 25: ayat 52.
    Do not yield to the unbelievers, but fight them strenuously with this Koran.

    Surah 9: ayat 39.
    If you do not fight He will punish you sternly and replace you by other men?

    Surah 9: ayat 111.
    Allah has purchased of the faithful their lives and worldly goods and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, slay and be slain. Such is the true pledge which He has made them in the Torah, the Gospel and the Koran. And who is more true to His promise than Allah? Rejoice then in the bargain you have made. That is the supreme triumph.

    Surah 3: ayats 169-171.
    You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well provided for by their Lord; pleased with His gifts and rejoicing that those whom they left behind and who have not yet joined them have nothing to fear or to regret; rejoicing in Allah?s grace and bounty. Allah will not deny the faithful their reward.

    Surah 4: ayat 100.
    He that flies his homeland for the cause of Allah shall find numerous places of refuge in the land and great abundance. He that leaves his dwelling to fight for Allah and His apostle and is then overtaken by death, shall be rewarded by Allah. Allah is forgiving and merciful.

    Surah 48: ayat 29.
    Muhammad is Allah?s apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless to the unbelievers but merciful to one another? Through them Allah seeks to enrage the unbelievers.

    Surah 49: ayat 15.
    The true believers are those that have faith in Allah and His apostle and never doubt; and who fight for His cause with their wealth and persons. Such are those whose faith is true.

    Surah 2: ayat 154.
    Do not say that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead; they are alive, although you are not aware of them.

    Surah 3: ayats 157-158.
    If you should die or be slain in the cause of Allah, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches they amass. If you should die or be slain, before Him you shall all be gathered.

    Surah 8: ayats 59-60.
    Let the unbelievers not think that they will escape Us. They have not the power to do so. Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your disposal, so that you may strike terror into the enemies of Allah and the faithful, and others besides them. All that you give for the cause of Allah shall be repaid you. You shall not be wronged.

    Surah 9: ayats 2-3.
    ?Allah will humble the unbelievers? Allah and His apostle are free from obligation to the idol-worshippers? Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers.

    Surah 9: ayat 29.
    Fight against such of those to whom the Scriptures were given as believe neither in Allah nor the Last Day, who do not forbid what Allah and His apostle have forbidden, and do not embrace the true faith, until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued.

    Surah 8: ayat 67.
    It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land?

    Surah 4: ayat 84.
    So fight for the cause of Allah. You are accountable for none but yourself. Rouse the faithful; perchance Allah will defeat the unbelievers. He is mightier and more truculent than they.

    Surah 29: ayat 6.
    He that fights for Allah?s cause fights for himself?

    Surah 29: ayat 69.
    Those that fight for Our cause We will surely guide to our own paths. Allah is with the righteous.

    Surah 61: ayats 9-13.
    It is He who has sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, so that He may make it the conqueror of all religions, much as the idol-worshippers may dislike it.

    Believers! Shall I point out to you a profitable course that will save you from a woeful scourge? Have faith in Allah and His apostle and fight for His cause with your wealth and your persons. That would be best for you, if you but knew it. He will forgive you your sins and admit you to gardens watered by running streams; He will lodge you in pleasant mansions in the gardens of Eden. That is the supreme triumph.

    Surah 9: ayat 36.
    Allah ordained the months twelve in number when He created the Heavens and the earth. Of these four (Dhi-Qa?ada, Dhul-Hajja, Muharram and Rajab) are sacred according to the true faith. Therefore do not sin against yourselves by violating them. But you may fight against the idolaters in all these months since they themselves fight against you in all of them. Know that Allah is with the righteous.

    Surah 9: ayat 5.
    When the sacred months are over slay the idol-worshippers wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent and take to prayer and pay the alms-tax, let them go their way. Allah is forgiving and merciful.

    Surah 9: ayat 14.
    Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.

    Surah 9: ayats 20-22.
    Those that have embraced the faith and fled their homes and fought for Allah?s cause with their wealth and their persons are held in higher regard by Allah. It is they who shall triumph. Their Lord has promised them joy and mercy, and gardens of eternal pleasures where they shall dwell for ever. Allah?s reward is great indeed.

    Surah 4: ayats 95-96.
    The believers who stay at home – apart from those that suffer from a grave impediment – are not equal to those -who fight for the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home. He has promised all a good reward: but far richer is the recompense of those who fight for Him: rank of His own bestowal, forgiveness, and mercy. Allah is forgiving and merciful.

    Surah 8: ayats 72-74.
    Those that have embraced the faith and fled their homes, fought for the cause of Allah with their wealth and their persons; and those that sheltered them and helped them, shall be friends to each other? they are the true believers. They shall receive mercy and generous provision.

    Surah 3: ayat 142.
    Did you suppose that you would enter Paradise before Allah has proved the men who fought for Him and endured with fortitude?

    ANNEXURE?B?

    Sayings of ?Koran? which Promote, on Grounds of Religion,
    Feeling of Enmity, Hatred and Ill-Will between different
    Religious Communities in India

    Surah 4: ayat 101.
    It is not offence for you to shorten your prayers when travelling the road if you fear that the unbelievers may attack you. The unbelievers are your sworn enemies.

    Surah 60: ayat 4.
    ?We renounce you (i.e. the idolaters): enmity and hate shall reign between us until you believe in Allah only?

    Surah 58: ayat 23.
    You shall find no believers in Allah and the Last Day on friendly terms with those who oppose Allah and His apostle, even though they be their fathers, their sons, their brothers, or their nearest kindred…

    Surah 9: ayat 7.
    Allah and His apostle repose no trust in idolaters?

    Surah 8: ayats 13-14.
    Thus We punished them because they defied Allah and His apostle. He that defies Allah and His apostle shall be sternly punished. We said to them, ?Feel Our scourge. Hell-fire awaits the unbelievers.?

    Surah 8: ayat 55.
    The basest creatures in the sight of Allah are the faithless who will not believe?

    Surah 25: ayat 55.
    Yet the unbelievers worship idols which can neither help nor harm them. Surely the unbeliever is his Lord?s enemy.

    Surah 5: ayat 72.
    ?He that worships other Gods besides Allah shall be forbidden Paradise and shall be cast into the fire of Hell. None shall help the evil-doers.

    Surah 9: ayat 23.
    Believers! do not befriend your fathers or your brothers if they choose unbelief in preference to faith. Wrong-doers are those that befriend them.

    Surah 9: ayat 28.
    Believers! know that the idolaters are unclean…

    Surah 3: ayat 28.
    Let believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful; he that does this has nothing to hope for from Allah – except in self-defence. Allah admonishes you to fear Him; for to Him you shall all return.

    Surah 3: ayat 118.
    Believers! do not make friends with any men other than your own people. They will spare no pains to corrupt you. They desire nothing but your ruin. Their hatred is clear from what they say, but more violent is the hatred which their breasts conceal?

    Surah 4 ayat 144.
    Believers! do not choose the infidels rather than the faithful for your friends. Would you give Allah a clear proof against yourselves?

    Surah 5: ayat 14.
    ?Therefore, We stirred among them (i.e. the Christians) enmity and hatred, which shall endure till the Day of Resurrection, when Allah will declare to them all that they have done.

    Surah 5: ayat 64.
    ?That which Allah has revealed to you will surely increase the wickedness and unbelief of many of them (i.e. the Jews). We have stirred among them (i.e. the Jews) enmity and hatred, which will endure till the Day of Resurrection…

    Surah 5: ayat 18.
    The Jews and the Christians say, ?We are the children of Allah and His loved ones.? Say: ?Why then does He punish you for your sins???

    Surah 5: ayat 51.
    Believers! take neither Jews nor Christians for your friends. They are friends with one another. Whoever of you seeks their friendship shall become one of their number. Allah does not guide the wrong-doers.

    ANNEXURE?C?

    Sayings of ?Koran? which Insult other Religions as also the
    Religious Beliefs of other Communities in India

    Surah 5: ayat 17.
    Unbelievers are those who declare: ?Allah is the Messiah (i.e. Christ), the son of Mary.? Say: ?Who could prevent Allah from destroying the Messiah (i.e. Christ), the son of Mary, together with his mother and all the people of the earth???

    Surah 4: ayat 157.
    They denied the truth and uttered a monstrous falsehood against Mary. They declared: ?We have put to death the Messiah Jesus, the son of Mary, the apostle of Allah.? They did not kill him, nor did they crucify him, but they thought they did.

    Surah 5: ayats 116-118.
    Then Allah will say, ?Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind: ?Worship me and my mother as Gods beside Allah?? ?Glory to You,? he will answer, ?how could I say that to which I have no right? If I had ever said so, You would have surely known it. You know what is in my mind, but I cannot tell what is in Yours. You alone know what is hidden. I spoke to them of nothing except what You bade me. I said, ?Serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord.? I watched over them whilst living in their midst, and ever since You took me to You, You Yourself have been watching over them. You are the witness of all things. They are Your own bondsmen: it is for You to punish or to forgive them. You are the Mighty, the Wise one.?

    Surah 98: ayat 6.
    The unbelievers among the people of the Book (i.e. Christians and Jews) and the pagans shall bum for ever in the fire of Hell. They are the vilest of all creatures.

    Surah 68: ayats 8-13.
    Give no heed to the disbelievers: they desire you to overlook their doings that they may overlook yours. Nor yield to the wretch of many oaths, the mischief-making slanderer, the opponent of good, the wicked transgressor, the bully who is of doubtful birth to boot.

    Surah 38: ayats 55-57.
    ?But doleful shall be the return of the transgressors. They shall bum in the fire of Hell, a dismal resting-place. There let them taste their drink: scalding water, festering blood and other putrid things.

    Surah 22: ayats 19-21.
    ?Garments of fire have been prepared for unbelievers. Scalding water shall be poured upon their heads, melting their skins and that which is in their bellies. They shall be lashed with red iron.

    Surah 22: ayats 56-57.
    ?Those that have embraced the true faith and done good works shall enter the gardens of delight, but the unbelievers who have denied Our revelations shall receive an ignominious punishment.

    Surah 5: ayats 36.
    As for the unbelievers, if they offered all that the earth contains and as much besides to redeem themselves from the torment of the Day of Resurrection it shall not be accepted from them. Theirs shall be a woeful punishment.

    Surah 15: ayats 2.
    The day will surely come when the unbelievers will wish that they were Muslims.

    Surah 72: ayats 14-15.
    Some of us are Muslims and some are wrong-doers. Those that embrace Islam pursue the right path; but those that do wrong (of not embracing Islam) shall become the fuel of fire.

    Surah 41: ayat 33.
    And who speaks better than he who calls others to the service of Allah, does what is right, and says: ?I am a Muslim??

    Surah: 4 ayat 125.
    And who has a nobler religion than the man who surrenders himself to Allah??

    Surah 25: ayats 27-29.
    On that day the wrong-doer will bite his hands and say, ?Would that I had walked in the Apostle?s path. Oh, would that I had never chosen so-and-so for my companion: It was he that made me disbelieve in Allah?s warning after it had reached me.? Satan is ever treacherous to man.

    Surah 26: ayats 96-99.
    ?By Allah?, they will say to their idols, as they contend with them, ?we erred indeed when we made you equals with the Lord of the Creation. It was the evil-doers who led us astray.?

    Surah 3: ayat 85.
    He that chooses a religion other than Islam, it will not be accepted from him and in the world to come he will be one of the lost.

    Surah 8: ayat 38.
    Tell the unbelievers that if they mend their ways (i.e. embrace Islam) their past shall be forgiven: but if they persist in sin (i.e. idol-worshipping) let them reflect upon the fate of their forefathers.

    Surah 31: ayat 13.
    Luqman admonished his son. ?My son?, he said, ?serve no other God instead of Allah, for idolatry is an abominable sin.?

    Surah 29: ayats 41-42.
    The false Gods which the idolaters serve besides Allah may be compared to the spider?s cobweb. Surely, the spider?s is the frailest of all dwellings, if they but know it. Allah knows what they invoke besides Him; He is the Mighty, the Wise one.

    Surah 37: ayats 22-25.
    But We shall say: ?Call the sinners, their wives, and the idols which they worshipped besides Allah and lead them to the path of Hell. Keep them there for questioning – But what has come over you that you cannot help one another??

    Surah 37: ayats 26-32.
    On that day they will all submit to Allah. They will reproach each other, saying: ?You have imposed upon us. It was you who would not be believers. We had no power over ? you; you were sinners all. Just is the verdict which our Lord has passed upon us, we shall surely taste His punishment. We misled you, but we ourselves have been misled.?

    Surah 25: ayats 17-19.
    On that day when He assembles them with all their idols, He will say: ?Was it you who misled My servants, or did they wilfully go astray?? They will answer: ?Allah forbid that we should choose other guardians besides You. You gave them and their fathers the good things of life, so that they forgot Your warnings and thus incurred destruction.? Then to the idolaters Allah will say: ?Your idols have denied your charges. They cannot avert your doom, nor can they help you. Those of you who have done wrong shall be sternly punished.?

    Surah 7: ayat 173.
    ?Our forefathers were indeed, idolaters; but will You destroy us, their descendants, on account of what the followers of falsehood did??

    Surah 21: ayats 66-67.
    He (Abraham) answered: ?Would you then worship that, instead of Allah, which can neither help nor harm you? Shame on you and on your idols: Have you no sense??

    Surah 21: ayats 98-100.
    You and all your idols shall be the fuel of Hell: therein you shall all go down. Were they true Gods, yours idols would not go there: but in it they shall abide for ever. They shall groan with pain and be bereft of hearing.

    Surah 16: ayats 20-21.
    But the false Gods which infidels invoke create nothing: they are themselves created. They are dead, not living, nor do they know when they will be raised to life.

    Surah 6: ayats 22-23.
    On that day when We gather them all together We shall say to the idolaters: ?Where are your idols now, those whom you supposed to be your Gods?? They will not argue, but will say: ?By Allah, our Lord, we have never worshipped idols.?

    Surah 6: ayats 40-41.
    Say: ?When Allah?s scourge smites you and the Hour of Doom suddenly overtakes you, will you call on any but Allah to help you? Answer me, if you are men of truth: No, on Him alone you will call; and if He please, He will relieve your affliction. Then you will forget your idols.?

    Surah 6: ayat 148:
    ?The idolaters will say: ?Had Allah pleased neither we nor our fathers would have served other Gods besides Him.??

    Surah 2: ayat 221.
    You shall not wed pagan women, unless they embrace the faith. A believing slave-girl is better than an idolatress, although she may please you. Nor shall you wed idolaters unless they embrace the faith. A believing slave is better than an idolater, although he may please you. These call you to Hell-fire, but Allah calls you, by His will, to paradise and to forgiveness. He makes plain His revelations to mankind, so that they may take heed.

    Surah 24: ayat 3.
    The adulterer may marry only an adulteress or an idolatress; and adulteress may marry only an adulterer or an idolater. True believers are forbidden such marriages.

  126. @Sunil

    I do not have background of the case you are talking about and I if this incident did happen I do condemn it and I am sure that Almighty will chastise the culprits. I have already mentioned in my response to “null” that when riots happen atrocities are committed/suffered by both hindus and muslims so citing a particular incident is extremely unwarranted, I can also site a number of incidents in which muslims were victimized but I will not do that.
    One more thing I have my reservations with sincerity and accuracy of media (politically motivated) as well as Wikipedia (anyone can edit it) so lets not get into this whose the victim game.

    Regarding context of verses of Quran, let me clarify that I am not a Islamic scholar, so I will have to search for the right context of each and every verses you have quoted; hence I request you to short list 4-5 of the verses which you find most offensive and I will try to explain (with my limited knowledge) them to you.

  127. Hello ” A small Clarification”,

    Your point –

    “One more thing I have my reservations with sincerity and accuracy of media (politically motivated) as well as Wikipedia (anyone can edit it) so lets not get into this whose the victim game.”

    My response –

    By your logic, you should not believe what was written in media about Narendra Modi and the riots in Gujarat. Am I right in inferring so?

    You wrote –

    “Regarding context of verses of Quran, let me clarify that I am not a Islamic scholar, so I will have to search for the right context of each and every verses you have quoted; hence I request you to short list 4-5 of the verses which you find most offensive and I will try to explain (with my limited knowledge) them to you.”

    My Response –

    I find all the verses offensive. Also when you say that you will explain them to me, do you mean that you will interpret them for me?

    Regards

    Sunil.

  128. the amarnath issue lead to riots in Indore when over enthusiastic BJP and other saffronwallahs tried to force down shutters for bharath bandh

  129. @Sunil

    Classic mark of a person losing ground is getting offensive, a pattern that I can see in your comment. I have one question for you, let your own conscious be your guide, tell me haven’t you ever witnessed even a single incident where reporting by media was politically prejudiced?? I am refraining from citing names and specific incidents to keep this discussion as intellectual and civilized as possible, so I would ask you to reciprocate with similar etiquettes.
    About Gujrat riots and Narendra Modi, Yes I do not believe in what media has reported about Godhra incident and the riots that followed it. But what I know for certain is that cases reported w.r.t riots by a “certain” community had to be transferred to neighboring states because of hostility of state government. What I also know for certain is that a number of rioters (none of whom has been put on trail so far) were caught on camera bragging about their heroics.
    Now we come to the part about verses in Quran, I am quite certain that you just copied text from Wikipedia and pasted it on this site without even reading them. What I would like you to do is go through them at least once and let me know 4- 5 verses that you find “most” offensive and I will try to give you context of those verses. I have even better suggestion go just google these verses and read the English translation of the Sura to which they belong, I am sure your misgivings will be resolved.

  130. @Sunil

    Classic mark of a person losing ground is getting offensive, a pattern that I can see in your comment. I have one question for you, let your own conscious be your guide, tell me haven’t you ever witnessed even a single incident where reporting by media was politically prejudiced?? I am refraining from citing names and specific incidents to keep this discussion as intellectual and civilized as possible, so I would ask you to reciprocate with similar etiquettes.
    About Gujrat riots and Narendra Modi, Yes I do not believe in what media has reported about Godhra incident and the riots that followed it. But what I know for certain is that cases reported w.r.t riots by a “certain” community had to be transferred to neighboring states because of hostility of state government. What I also know for certain is that a number of rioters (none of whom has been put on trail so far) were caught on camera bragging about their heroics.
    Now we come to the part about verses in Quran, I am quite certain that you just copied text from Wikipedia and pasted it on this site without even reading them. What I would like you to do is go through them at least once and let me know 4- 5 verses that you find “most” offensive and I will try to give you context of those verses. I have even better suggestion go just google these verses and read the English translation of the Sura to which they belong, I am sure your misgivings will be resolved.

  131. @ null : “the amarnath issue lead to riots in Indore when over enthusiastic BJP and other saffronwallahs tried to force down shutters for bharath bandh”

    Hmmm. Closing of shutters does not seem to be overtly violent to me. A massacre of close to 3 million (primarily) Hs in living memory, is (1970-71 Bangladesh). Let’s talk sense.

    One faith, in spite of horrifically biased and sickeningly squalid relentless media coverage of slum faeces and manufactured data on AIDs, is praised thoughout the world for the positive and uplifting contribution and beneficial outlook of their adherents.

    The other one, in spite of its total stranglehold on a critical resource, and unmerited and undeserved amassment of effortless largesse used in buying up the media, the politic and mouthpieces of intellectual discourse, is vilified the world over, from USA, Spain, Britan, France, Germany, Sweden, Italy, Malta (yes, even little Malta is being swamped), Russia, India, liberal M states (Indonesia), Australia …. basically the entire non-M world, for butchery, violence, mass breeding and swamping populations.

    All in the name of ludicrously misguided medieval pronouncements.

    Null mentioned he is glad that his ancestors converted, rather than have molten lead poured down their ears. Does this statement have any validity at all? Let’s study it in a bit of detail.

    First of all, I am glad null is happy in his faith. I have no wish to ‘rescue him for “perdition”‘, as Hm is a pluralistic and tolerant faith. The issue about Ms is that the story does not stiop there. It is the Ms who are foaming at the mouth to either convert or massacre people they identify as opponents just for not believing in their spirituality-bereft creed. That is why any sane minded person would wish Ms to shun their fanaticism, which effectively means shed their ‘faith’ (sic). Thus the urgency of persuading them to ‘see the light’ before they butcher everyone else.

    Second, null did not know how his ancestors were converted. If historical evidence is anything to go by, it was not by peaceful self-willed conversion. Masses of lower castes converting en masse is a falsehood banded about those kings of falsehood, M propagandists, and assiduously asserted by their paid mouthpieces in the Indian and Western media & intelligentsia. Where is the historical evidence? The historical evidence shows a 1,000 year campaign to force Hs to to submit & convert. A relentless barrage of alternate means of psychological torture, economic oppression (jizzya, pilgrimage tax) or outright butchery and slaughter. Null’s forefathers are far more likely to have converted under the duress of these factors. Perhaps not strong enough to induce null to re-convert, but surely enough to convince him to be more honest and introspective about this faith.

    Null cites ‘lead in ears’. The Manu Smriti does mention this. Does the Gita mention this? Does Patanjali’s Raja Yoga mention this. Do any of the authenticated sections of the Puranas mention it? Do the Vedas unmabiguously assert this? No. It is a stray and unsubstantiated reference in a section of a non-religious book passed down orally through centuries (& thus open to abuse and interpolation). The millenia old oppression of Hs at the hand of M butchers, past poresent and clearly evident future, is a well documented, irrefutable, crystal clear fact.

    After all, the best M leader is cited as Akbar. Hmmm, A guy who remorsely massacred 30,000 defeated Rajputs after storming Chittor, many by decapitation (i.e not a spur of the moment act of fury, but a cold, calculated and measured genocide).

    Thus the most benevolent M king of India is a mass murderor. The others were worse.

    A lot worse.

  132. Hello “A Small Clarification”,

    I am not getting offensive. Please forgive me if I have given you that impression.

    You said,

    “But what I know for certain is that cases reported w.r.t riots by a “certain” community had to be transferred to neighboring states because of hostility of state government”

    My response –

    What I know for certain is that a certain community was massacred and destroyed during the moplah riots that errupted due to an event that took place miles away, What I know for certain is that a certain community had to pay jiziya during much of the middle ages, what I know for certain is that a certain community was brutalised in Noakhali for no fault of their own, what I know for certain is that a ceratin community was targeted in the call for “Direct Action”, what I know for certain is that a certain community was thrown out of Kashmir for not belonging to another “certain” religion. I can go on with this. But that is not my objective. My objective is to understand on what grounds are you trying to say that the Quran does not preach Violence and Hatred inspite of centuries of evidence to the contrary.

    You said –

    “I am quite certain that you just copied text from Wikipedia and pasted it on this site without even reading them. What I would like you to do is go through them at least once and let me know 4- 5 verses that you find “most” offensive and I will try to give you context of those verses.”

    My response –

    You are certainly wrong in assuming that I have not read them. I have read each and every verse in their original context and still find them offensive. That is why I have requested you to provide me with what you think is the correct context to them. Please dont take this as a sign of offense and dont burden yourself with the task of finding patterns in my writing and deducing whether I am losing ground or not, because the surest sign that one is losing ground is when one starts accusing others of losing ground.

    Regards

    Yours Inquisitively,

    Sunil.

  133. @ Deshpremi
    GB…kuch naya likho…warna yahan kaumi dange ho jayenge

    Danga ek hazaar baras se chal rahe he. Likhna ya na likhne me koi farakh nahi parega.

    Hindu jati ka samay khatam.

  134. As I mentioned before, the Koran IS presented as the “eternal word of Allah” as given to Mohammed. That is the most important point of it. So the question of “context” DOES NOT arise… Mohammed himself confirms that…time and again.

    Why do pseudo-seculars and many apologists keep on talking about context and era, etc, etc in order to delink actions from inspirations.

    It would be great if tomorrow Muslim scholars come out and say that the Koran is changeable and many of its chapters are irrelevent.

    I CHALLENGE A ISLAMIC SCHOLAR TO DO THAT.

    But I also know that he will be dead in a month if he does so.

    It would have been great if Islam used the Hindu model (of dividing scriptures into sub-categories of Shrutis and Smritis).
    The Srutis being divine knowledge focussing on philosophies and ideas, while Smritis focusing on customs and practices modifiable with time.

    But then again, followers of Koran would rather ditch it, and become Hindus anyway.

  135. @Hara hara bom bom
    aisa to hoga nahi….yugon se chali aa rahi prajati (not jati) aise nahi khatam hogi…
    i was discussing with sm frds yesterday…even though thr have been numerous shortcomings in hinduism…and thr have been a few revolts against them…bt no one has gone on to become an osama or alike…ppl havnt become suicide bombers

  136. @Sunil,
    It will take me some time to provide context for all verses that you have quoted, what I am doing is providing context for verses that you have quoted from Sura2 and Sura 8:
    Surah 2: ayat 193.
    Fight against them until idolatry is no more and Allah?s religion reigns supreme.
    This is not the correct verse, I am providing correct verse below along with three successive verses:
    002.190 Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

    002.191 And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

    002.192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
    002.193 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah. But if they desist, then let there be no hostility except against wrong-doers.

    Please note that it is clearly said that Allah dose not love aggressors, it has been commanded that believers should not be hostile, rather they should only fight persecutors, kindly note that “idolaters” have no where been mentioned. Also, it has also been said that “fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there”. In 002:193 it is said that if they (persecutors) desists they will/may be forgiven. Also, believers are not to fight till the end instead they have been commanded to fight only till persecution is no more, and religion is for Allah, at the same time if they (persecutors) desist then believers have been commanded to cease all hostilities except against wrong-doers. I don’t find anything offensive in these verses.
    Next quoted verses:
    Surah 2: ayat 216.
    Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. Allah knows, but you do not.
    Surah 2: ayat 221.
    You shall not wed pagan women, unless they embrace the faith. A believing slave-girl is better than an idolatress, although she may please you. Nor shall you wed idolaters unless they embrace the faith. A believing slave is better than an idolater, although he may please you. These call you to Hell-fire, but Allah calls you, by His will, to paradise and to forgiveness. He makes plain His revelations to mankind, so that they may take heed.
    Please refer to following verses:
    002.215 They ask thee, (O Muhammad), what they shall spend. Say: that which ye spend for good (must go) to parents and near kindred and orphans and the needy and the wayfarer. And whatsoever good ye do, lo! Allah is Aware of it.

    002.216 Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not.

    002.217 They question thee (O Muhammad) with regard to warfare in the sacred month. Say: Warfare therein is a great (transgression), but to turn (men) from the way of Allah, and to disbelieve in Him and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel His people thence, is a greater with Allah; for persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can. And whoso becometh a renegade and dieth in his disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in the world and the Hereafter. Such are rightful owners of the Fire: they will abide therein.

    002.218 Lo! those who believe, and those who emigrate (to escape the persecution) and strive in the way of Allah, these have hope of Allah’s mercy. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    002.219 They question thee about strong drink and games of chance. Say: In both is great sin, and (some) utility for men; but the sin of them is greater than their usefulness. And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous. Thus Allah maketh plain to you (His) revelations, that haply ye may reflect.

    002.220 Upon the world and the Hereafter. And they question thee concerning orphans. Say: To improve their lot is best. And if ye mingle your affairs with theirs, then (they are) your brothers. Allah knoweth him who spoileth from him who improveth. Had Allah willed He could have overburdened you. Allah is Mighty, Wise.

    002.221 Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo! a believing bondwoman is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you. These invite unto the Fire, and Allah inviteth unto the Garden, and unto forgiveness by His grace, and expoundeth His revelations to mankind that haply they may remember.

    These in verses commands are being given to believers on certain worldly matters, which include:
    1. Taking care of parents, other family members, needy and orphans
    2. Conduct warfare when required (it has been accepted that warfare is liked by believers)
    3. Not to persecute/ exploit
    4. Not to fight in place of worship
    5. Not to drink and gamble
    6. And not to marry idol worshipers unless he/she becomes a believer
    I don’t find anything offensive in these verses.

    We now come to the following verse:
    Surah 2: ayat 154.
    Do not say that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead; they are alive, although you are not aware of them.
    Please refer to the following verses:
    002.150 Whencesoever thou comest forth turn thy face toward the Inviolable Place of Worship; and wheresoever ye may be (O Muslims) turn your faces toward it (when ye pray) so that men may have no argument against you, save such of them as do injustice – Fear them not, but fear Me! – and so that I may complete My grace upon you, and that ye may be guided.

    002.151 Even as We have sent unto you a messenger from among you, who reciteth unto you Our revelations and causeth you to grow, and teacheth you the Scripture and wisdom, and teacheth you that which ye knew not.

    002.152 Therefore remember Me, I will remember you. Give thanks to Me, and reject not Me.

    002.153 O ye who believe! Seek help in steadfastness and prayer. Lo! Allah is with the steadfast.

    002.154 And call not those who are slain in the way of Allah “dead.” Nay, they are living, only ye perceive not.

    002.155 And surely We shall try you with something of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and crops; but give glad tidings to the steadfast,

    002.156 Who say, when a misfortune striketh them: Lo! we are Allah’s and lo! unto Him we are returning.

    002.157 Such are they on whom are blessings from their Lord, and mercy. Such are the rightly guided.
    When we look at 002:154 w.r.t the above mentioned verses it can be interpreted (my opinion) that Almighty is asking believers to remain steadfast/unyielding and not fear for one’s life when his/her faith is in question because people who have died for their faith cannot be considered as dead. I don’t find anything offensive in these verses either.
    Lets come to the verses you have quoted from Sura 8 which is Al-Anfál(Spoils of War). You have mentioned following verses:
    Surah 8: ayat 12.
    I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, maim them in every limb.
    Surah 8: ayats 13-14.
    Thus We punished them because they defied Allah and His apostle. He that defies Allah and His apostle shall be sternly punished. We said to them, ?Feel Our scourge. Hell-fire awaits the unbelievers.?
    Surah 8: ayats 15-18.
    Believers! when you encounter the armies of the infidels do not turn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his back to them, except it be for tactical reasons, or to join another band, he shall incur the wrath of Allah and Hell shall be his home: an evil fate. It was not you, but Allah, who slew them. It was not you who smote them; Allah smote them so that He might richly reward the faithful. He hears all and knows all. He will surely thwart the designs of the unbelievers.
    These verses are part of Sura Al-Anfal (Spoils of War) and in these verses an event of war is being illustrated, and the Almighty is describing the way in which he helped believers, and is commanding/encouraging believers to hold steadfast on the eve of battle with non-believers. kindly refer to the verses below:
    008.009 When ye sought help of your Lord and He answered you (saying): I will help you with a thousand of the angels, rank on rank.
    008.010 Allah appointed it only as good tidings, and that your hearts thereby might be at rest. Victory cometh only by the help of Allah. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise.
    008.011 When He made the slumber fall upon you as a reassurance from him and sent down water from the sky upon you, that thereby He might purify you, and remove from you the fear of Satan, and make strong your hearts and firm (your) feet thereby.
    008.012 When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
    008.013 That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment.
    008.014 That (is the award), so taste it, and (know) that for disbelievers is the torment of the Fire.

    008.015 O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them.

    008.016 Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end.

    008.017 Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower.

    008.018 That (is the case); and (know) that Allah (it is) Who maketh weak the plan of disbelievers.
    Let’s come to next verses that you have quoted:
    Surah 8: ayat 38.
    Tell the unbelievers that if they mend their ways (i.e. embrace Islam) their past shall be forgiven: but if they persist in sin (i.e. idol-worshipping) let them reflect upon the fate of their forefathers.
    Surah 8: ayat 39.
    Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah?s religion reigns supreme.
    Please refer to the correct verses (these are self explanatory, please note that this verse is about persecution) correct verses are:
    008.038 Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning).

    008.039 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.

    008.040 And if they turn away, then know that Allah is your Befriender – a Transcendent Patron, a Transcendent Helper!
    We now come to following verse
    Surah 8: ayat 55.
    The basest creatures in the sight of Allah are the faithless who will not believe?
    The correct verse is
    008.055 Lo! the worst of beasts in Allah’s sight are the ungrateful who will not believe.
    Again nothing offensive about this verse either.
    Next “offensive” verses from same sura:
    Surah 8: ayats 59-60.
    Let the unbelievers not think that they will escape Us. They have not the power to do so. Muster against them all the men and cavalry at your disposal, so that you may strike terror into the enemies of Allah and the faithful, and others besides them. All that you give for the cause of Allah shall be repaid you. You shall not be wronged.
    Surah 8: ayat 66.
    Now bath Allah lightened your burden, for He knoweth that there is weakness in you. So if there be of you a steadfast hundred they shall vanquish two hundred, and if there be of you a thousand steadfast they shall vanquish two thousand by permission of Allah. Allah is with the steadfast.

    Kindly refer to the following verses of the same sura:
    008.056 Those of them with whom thou madest a treaty, and then at every opportunity they break their treaty, and they keep not duty (to Allah).

    008.057 If thou comest on them in the war, deal with them so as to strike fear in those who are behind them, that haply they may remember.

    008.058 And if thou fearest treachery from any folk, then throw back to them (their treaty) fairly. Lo! Allah loveth not the treacherous.

    008.059 And let not those who disbelieve suppose that they can outstrip (Allah’s Purpose). Lo! they cannot escape.

    008.060 Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.

    008.061 And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.
    008.062 And if they would deceive thee, then lo! Allah is Sufficient for thee. He it is Who supporteth thee with His help and with the believers,

    008.063 And (as for the believers) hath attuned their hearts. If thou hadst spent all that is in the earth thou couldst not have attuned their hearts, but Allah hath attuned them. Lo! He is Mighty, Wise.

    008.064 O Prophet! Allah is Sufficient for thee and those who follow thee of the believers.

    008.065 O Prophet! Exhort the believers to fight. If there be of you twenty steadfast they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a hundred (steadfast) they shall overcome a thousand of those who disbelieve, because they (the disbelievers) are a folk without intelligence.

    008.066 Now hath Allah lightened your burden, for He knoweth that there is weakness in you. So if there be of you a steadfast hundred they shall overcome two hundred, and if there be of you a thousand (steadfast) they shall overcome two thousand by permission of Allah. Allah is with the steadfast.
    In these verses it is believers are encouraged to wage war with people who have broken their treaty (it has also been recommended in Quran that believers should not break any treaty) but at the same time it has also been said that if these people again want to make peace then make peace with them. But if they deceive (break treaty) again then prophet (Muhammad SAW) has been commanded to take believers to fight them, and it is said that few believers (in this scenario) will overcome a more numerous enemy. Again nothing offensive.
    Next verse from same sura that you quoted:
    Surah 8: ayats 72-74.
    Those that have embraced the faith and fled their homes, fought for the cause of Allah with their wealth and their persons; and those that sheltered them and helped them, shall be friends to each other? they are the true believers. They shall receive mercy and generous provision.
    The complete verse is:
    008.072 Lo! those who believed and left their homes and strove with their wealth and their lives for the cause of Allah, and those who took them in and helped them: these are protecting friends one of another. And those who believed but did not leave their homes, ye have no duty to protect them till they leave their homes; but if they seek help from you in the matter of religion then it is your duty to help (them) except against a folk between whom and you there is a treaty. Allah is Seer of what ye do.
    Nothing offensive in this verse either, it is to be noted that here again Almighty is commanding to honor a treaty
    Sunil I do not think there is anything offensive about the verses you have stated, also you just mentioned few verses of this Sura but forgot to site following verses from the same Sura:
    008.019 (O Qureysh!) If ye sought a judgment, now hath the judgment come unto you. And if ye cease (from persecuting the believers) it will be better for you, but if ye return (to the attack) We also shall return. And your host will avail you naught, however numerous it be, and (know) that Allah is with the believers (in His Guidance).
    008.038 Tell those who disbelieve that if they cease (from persecution of believers) that which is past will be forgiven them; but if they return (thereto) then the example of the men of old hath already gone (before them, for a warning).
    008.039 And fight them until persecution is no more, and religion is all for Allah. But if they cease, then lo! Allah is Seer of what they do.
    008.040 And if they turn away, then know that Allah is your Befriender – a Transcendent Patron, a Transcendent Helper!
    008.060 Make ready for them all thou canst of (armed) force and of horses tethered, that thereby ye may dismay the enemy of Allah and your enemy, and others beside them whom ye know not. Allah knoweth them. Whatsoever ye spend in the way of Allah it will be repaid to you in full, and ye will not be wronged.
    008.061 And if they incline to peace, incline thou also to it, and trust in Allah. Lo! He, even He, is the Hearer, the Knower.
    008.062 And if they would deceive thee, then lo! Allah is Sufficient for thee. He it is Who supporteth thee with His help and with the believers,
    In these verses Almighty is clearly commanding believers to fight only if they are attacked. Moreover peace has been preferred over war. He has also commanded that believers should cease fighting (with non-believers) as soon as persecution (of believers) is over.
    Sunil my advice to you will be, instead of quoting random verses from some website, please try to 5 verses preceding and 5 verses succeeding the verse in question. In most of the cases you will get the context.

  137. Deshpremi
    na Hindu dharma jati hai na prajati.
    Hinduism and all its philosophical darshanal are Universal in their knowledge and application. Not just global, but Universal.

    Stop equating Hinduism with ethnicity. That has been our biggest bane, we the ignorant ones.

    The orthodox darshanas of Sankhya, Yoga, Nyaya-Vaisheshika, Mimansa, Vedanta (itself comprising Davaita, Advaita, Vishisthaadvaita, Achintya Bheda-Abheda), NONE, absolutely, talk of anything less than the universe.

    The unorthodox darshanas, Jaina, and Bouddha are equally universal.

    @deshpremi…
    It takes more than ethnicity and numbers to be the world’s third largest and oldest thriving religion.

    It takes gyana, bhakti and karma (in this post’s context the use of shakti, if needed) to do that. And every generation produces its unsung dedicated masters who make that happen.

    Uttistha Arjuna!!

  138. @Rishi

    One thing to note is that English translation of the meaning of the Quran is not the Quran itself. The Quran is in its original, pristine Arabic as it was revealed from Allah (the word for God in Arabic). Someone new to these verses may not fully understand the verses and may take them out of context. One must look into all the verses in relation to each other and the Sunnah and Hadith (example and traditions of the prophet (s)), the context of revelation, Tafsir (commentaries), the original lexical Arabic and scholarly understanding to fully interpret the Quran’s meaning.

    I hope this helps.

  139. @Rishi Khujur….uth gaya….ab ghar nikalta hoon
    btw GB…why cnt i delete my own comment..why shud this privilege rest with u?? sm problem with the site u use (blogspot allows it) or prabhuji ordered u so.

  140. @ A small clarification

    you wrote:
    “The Quran is in its original, pristine Arabic as it was revealed from Allah (the word for God in Arabic). Someone new to these verses may not fully understand the verses and may take them out of context”.

    ishi’s response:
    I see… so the Islamic scholars who know Arabic have been perpetuating this horrible crime on humanity are taking it “out of context”.

    Did Mohammed himself “take it out of context too”, given what he himself set up as an example. I guess he did.

    As for your explanation about the offending verses that Sunil so nicely pointed out, YOU BY YOUR OWN EXPLANATION, ARE SUPPORTING THE FACT THAT KORAN PROMOTES DERISVE TREATMENT OF THE KAFIRS (which we Hindus, including your unfortunate forefathers, are).

    Here is a logic that you just presented.

    -Believer(Muslim) IS better than non believers (Kafir and Dhimmis, ie, Hindus, Jews others)

    -Believer will discriminate against non-believers (based on his asumption that he is better), but any return of favor from the non-believers is equated with persecution of believers.

    This percieved persecution of believer then puts the non-believer in a free for all atrocity recieving mode.

    Free for all atrocity on the non-beliver can be alleviated if the non-believer becomes a believer.

    SO DEAR, A SMALL CLARIFICATION, READ THROUGH YOUR OWN EXPLANATION, AND TELL ME WHY I SHOULD NOT CONSIDER YOU A FOLLOWER OF KORAN BENT UPON DESTROYING HUMANITY (yes! I am raising my voice here)

  141. @ Rishi, Hara – I am bludgeoned by your scholarship. The majority community in India is obviously trampled upon & oppressed. A conspiracy is abound to take away what is rightly ours. It is a tragic state of affairs, & us Hindus are glad that you are there to watch out for us. But how much can you do living the good life in the US? Shouldn’t you be in India helping our unfortunate brothes & sisters? You guys should be the foot soldiers in the valley of Kashmir & the borders of Bangladesh, instead of posting on blogs. Hara, by his own admission, is already a legend in his own lifetime. Surely at least he doesn’t have anything else left to prove? C’mon guys – make us proud of you as men of your words, not just rabble rousers.

  142. @ Pankaj
    Writing in this blog is only a small part of what I do. Rest assured, I make myself useful in many more ways than you think. The foot soldier and the victim in Kashmir or Bangladesh (or bengal) are better judges of what I do.

  143. Hara Hara Bom Bom,

    Looks like Pakele (a.k.a Pankaj Roy a.k.a Ode to the Fundoos) fantasizes about you so much that these days, he opens his mouth whenever it “rains”. :D

    Too bad he wouldn’t have any appetite left for the eucharist.

  144. Khujur Nama:
    A day in the life of an Internet-Knight of the Order of the Knicker.

    Diary entry July 1, 2008

    6:00AM: Wake up to the Mangalya Suprabhatham (DJ Rithambara Remix). I just lavv this remix… especially the Sanskrit rap insert about the Ushus stained red with the blood of Mlecchas.

    6:02AM: Lathi Drill as instructed by the Late Guruji and Late Doctorji. But why is it so small and where’s the wirin….. Oh F#$K! That was just my morning woody! Ashreekaram!
    (Note to self: More Biwi, less Bong-jee at night.)

    6:05AM: Nature’s call, strictly followed the Vaastu Shastra and Dharma Shastra edicts by crapping outside the four walls of the house.
    (Note to self: The spade is blunt and I’m running out of sand)

    6:25AM: Lathi drill. Was halfway into my Vanaraasana position when the lights went out on me. Next thing I saw was my rolling-pin armed sreemati screaming at me for pulling out the clothesline staff again. Sigh…. I should have found my partner from the Durgavahini Camp!

    6:52AM: Ahhhh…. this week’s booklet of “Islam: Dirty Murdering B@stards” correspondence course from Harivard University, Nagpur. I thump my way into the book while my free hand unzips my fly. I find what I am looking for in a while. Blissssssssssss…..

    7:30AM: Arrrrgghhhhhh! Dhokla again for breakfast. And the brat’s bawlng his head off…. what a life! I should be riding my Marwari warhorse, dressed in shining plate-armor, slicing off the heads and d1cks off katwa Mlecchas…

    7:44AM: Breakfast:
    Aaaaack Thoo! Did she f*&kin’ put f*&kin’ Shinola in that f&^kin’ Dhokla? At least it’s computer time now. Hmmm…. continue annual suscription to Amazing Indians 39$, yes…. Relief Fund for the victims of Hindu genocide 5$, yes. Ahhhh… I have a warm feeling in my belly now!

    8:00AM: Email time.
    Yipeeeeeee…… more portfolio pics of HHBB from VHP Band Camp ’08! Just look at all those bronzed bansuris….. Mwahhhh, my heeeeeero!
    Whoa…. what’s this email from General Ogamabata from Nigeria? Interesting, he wants me to safeguard his fortune! It’s my lucky day and I haven’t even yet wiped my ars… Oh crap! Alzheimer’s already?! Where’s my lota?

    8:15AM: Greatbong Time!
    Darn, no emotive issues posted today.. what do I do for my daily fix?! But wait…. some noob’s commented in “Banana Republic” post! I hope it’s a sickularist MUHUHUHAHAHAHAHA….

    10:45AM: Day Job:
    The HR b1tch gave me more attitude for being late! F*&k does she know about my secret life as a warrior for the Hindu cause? In the old days I could scald her tongue for this temerity! Soon Khujur… soon!

    11:20AM: Hello…. the Green Card questionnaire! Yaaaaaay!
    Hey, what’s this… “Have you ever oppressed any ethnic or religious group”? Errrr… do Muslims and Christians and Buddhists count as people? I must ask HHBB…

    :
    :
    :
    :P

  145. @ BSP – awesome! We need one for H2B2 too. His/her’s world travel, dispensing management advice & peeing on Ode’s mouth (ewww) should be keeping him really busy :-)

  146. @ Pankaj and BSP
    You guys should finish mine for the whole day. That woudl be hilarious. Do the rest from 11:20 am to sleep time. We usually sleep by 1am and I usually go swimming around 8 to 9 pm. Include that in the script.

  147. @ slashgod:

    agree with your fat aunty comment 100%.

    kashmir is the bit between the dogs. where do you start?

    pakistan, the isi, india, raw, the hurriyat.. throwing the pandits out first and being paranoid about the revenge..seeing what is happening in tibet and wondering if the indians are getting ideas..so on and so forth.

    @ aye from a muslim:

    you have nothing to fear in india. our resident experts speak for no one but themselves. even though they sound overwhelming on this forum i am sure your experience of india will show how far their views are from the majority.

    when Farooq Shiekh was attacked about Godhra/Gujarat and how unsafe India is for muslims by Pakistani intellectuals, he defended us by saying that it was Hindus who protested the most loudly.

    there is an amazing story on how a sikh guru prevented aurangzeb from forcibly converting pandits to islam. and then his son, guru gobind singh broke that might tyrant with a defiant poem.

    you fucks who want a hindu state have no idea about the zeitgeist of indian secularism. and no what is happening in india is not secularism.

    @ koran is a document of hate:

    you have got to ask yourself whether this is a constructive way of engaging muslims.

    FYI, the Prophet repeatedly mentions throughout the Koran that one should draw their own conclusions and not let anyone do it for them. by following an imam blindly a muslim has failed his spiritual quest.

    for example, that the koran does not say in a single place that depiction of the prophet is prohibited. it is SUNNI TRADITION. shias depict the prohpet liberally. yet you saw what happened with the danish cartoons. there are other factors at work here.

    it is repeatedly mentioned in the koran that fundamentalism and extremism should be rejected. at the same time the koran contradicts itself in several places.

    to blame the koran and to regard it as a mind control device is meaningless, inflammatory and downright stupid.

    @ balasangh parivar:

    that was a stunning piece of writing but an ad hominem attack.

    good of rishi to appreciate it. for once he got the joke.

    @ hhbb:

    i love hhbb. hhbb for President of World.

  148. @ Rishi
    I have been reading your comments for a while now.
    And I feel that you yourself know how ridiculous your comments are, well some times i.e.!
    You seem to be voicing a worthy cause, but IMHO some how you loose the whole context.

    @ GB
    Need some links to new Bhojpuri songs or a review on Ajay Devgan’s Oscar worthy effort – Mehbooba after this heady one.

  149. No one is doubting the sincerity but hate begets more hate.
    We feel that’s the basic difference between partitioned India and India.
    At the root of all of this is unemployment and poverty.

    BTW: What if in some SAARC forum leaders of Pakistan and Bangladesh declare that they want to re merge with India.

    …tab kya karoge :-)

  150. hhbb, kannan, sunil, bhopale, dodo, anonymous coward, vibhash and rishi khujur,

    Keep up the good work mates …. Your trenchant logic and solid facts have convinced readers like myself that the Amarnath episode has exposed the rapidly growing menace of Jihad in India today.

    You might know this already, but over the past year, your blunt critiques and “no nonsense” ideas are convincing enough to put the seed of introspection into the minds of readers who earlier didn’t know or didn’t care about where India is headed. You have given us the right ideas and energy to do our bit to serve the cause. Thank you for arming us with the facts and inspiring us to do grassroots work on the ground to fight the Jihadi menace.

    When Jihad-lovers can’t stand up to your facts, solid arguments and reasoning, they WILL resort to name calling and ad hominem insults in order to shut you up. This is an Occupational Hazard in your field of work and a small price to pay – given the precious nature of what we stand to lose if we give up our resistance – Mother India Herself.

    Always remember – First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. Then they fight you. Then YOU win.

    So you keep presenting the facts. The rest, as they say, will be history.

  151. @ Deshpremi
    “bt no one in Hinduism has gone on to become an osama or alike…ppl havnt become suicide bombers”

    It is true that Hindus have not become terrorists, but Hindus have gone on to become extinct in Pakistan where they were 35% in the pre-partition period.

    It is true that the Hindus have not produced an Osama, but they have gone on to being murdered and thrown out of their homes in POST-PARTITION India (Kashmir), while their murderors are fed on a nourishing diet of shikara funds, goat biriyani, Article 370 and amnesty for terrorists. Oh, and free Haj, as murderors need to travel too.

    It is true that Hindus have not blown up thousands of people the world over, but they are being systematically brutalised in the blood-stained jagged borders with Islam.

    In 1970-71, nearly 3 million Hindus were systematically slaughtered at the hands of the Pakistani army & fanatic Muslims in Bnagladesh. I am not talking about what happened 1,000 years ago. Not 500, 400 or 100 years ago. I am talking about the hear and now.

    What do you make of http://www.ahrchk.net/statements/mainfile.php/2008statements/1481/

    Your confidence may be misplaced. Your smugness may be premature.

    I sincerely hope you are right and I am wrong. I dread that reality is the opposite.

  152. @anindita
    “hhbb, kannan, sunil, bhopale, dodo, anonymous coward, vibhash and rishi khujur, Keep up the good work mates …. ”

    Thanks for your support. It is becoming patently obvious to every sane person around the world that Islam is primarily a regressive and menacing force. Everywhere I go on my travels (I travel a lot in my job). Recently I was in Berlin during Euro 2008. If you saw the ugly attitude of the Turks during the Germany-Turkey match, and the seething resentment of the Germans, your blood would boil. The same hatred.

    Even the so called liberal Turks are extremist. I met 2 Turkish gentlemen at a restaurant. They turned out to be lawyers. It started out very civil, and we treated each other to snacks. They were quite civil about India and Hinduism (they mistakenly thought that their ancestors, who came from the Asian heartlands, were Hindus before the Othmans converted to Islam under the Seljuks … they were actually Shamans, though the word ‘Shaman’ does stem from the Sanskrit word ‘Shramana’, meaning a travelling holy man, in particular Buddhists’. But the topic soon spread to how Muslims are persecuted in Germany, and how Turks and Lebanese and Arabs in Germany are divided .. if only they were united they could have shown the Germans.

    They also said that Turkey would never be inducted in the EU as it was Muslim. I said that Europe had three Muslim countries, Kossovo, Bosnia and Albania. They dismissed that by saying these three were small territories with few people. Then there was a rant against Jews and America and how they are causing all the problems of the world.

    So you see, you will never satisfy their blutlust. Even the liberal among them.

    Even liberal Germans are turning icily cold towards their gast-arbeiters.

  153. @ Sam
    “No one is doubting the sincerity but hate begets more hate.”

    So what is the solution? If Hitler is propagating hate, do we lay down our arms and kiss his toes as Gandhi suggested? And let him continue obliterating Jews, Gypsies, Slavs, Russians and all other unter-menschen? Or do we identify the evil and try resisiting it? What is the practical solution?

    Hatred of hate can sometimes contribute to obliterating it. Love of hate will only fan its flames.

    “We feel that’s the basic difference between partitioned India and India. At the root of all of this is unemployment and poverty.”
    No it isn’t. At the root is the clear, unambiguous hate message in the Koran.

    “What if in some SAARC forum leaders of Pakistan and Bangladesh declare that they want to re merge with India”.

    What if, as a result of global swarming (Muslims overpopulating victim nations with their 6-7 kids policy), in 3 generations, a 51% Muslim India re-merges with Pakistan and Bangladesh? Well, for a start, in one year from then, the 51% Muslim India will become a 100% Muslim India. Guess why?

  154. w.t.f.ittabari
    @ aye from a muslim:
    “you have nothing to fear in india.”
    Why are you comforting him? Don’t you realise in 2-3 generations his community will become the majority in India. He does not need your solace. Your affiliation is another issue.

    “Farooq Shiekh defended us by saying that it was Hindus who protested the most loudly. there is an amazing story on how a sikh guru prevented aurangzeb from forcibly converting pandits to islam.”
    So this is what you are reduced to? Reliance on stray pronoucements and childrens stories? How does that help the miserable and wrteched Hindus who are being brutalised TODAY? How does that help

    http://www.ahrchk.net/statements/mainfile.php/2008statements/1481/

    “and then his son, guru gobind singh broke that might tyrant with a defiant poem.”
    Yes. Well, I don’t think it was literary finesse that caused the downfall of the Mughals. Sure, the power of prosaic and florid prose may have played a part (like boring the Mughals to death), but it was more the relentless campaigns of one Banda Singh Bahadur that lit the immortal spark.

    “you fucks who want a hindu state have no idea about the zeitgeist of indian secularism. and no what is happening in india is not secularism”.

    Whoops. The language slips. Anyway, you are too darned right. What is happening in India is not secularism at all. No feckin’ way … I can feel my language slipping as well.

    @ koran is a document of hate: “you have got to ask yourself whether this is a constructive way of engaging muslims”.

    Oh. So I cannot ask myself if it is the truth or not. I have to ask myself if the Muslims will be offended by what I think. Veracity be damned. Veracity be feckin’ damned.

    “FYI, the Prophet repeatedly mentions throughout the Koran that one should draw their own conclusions … by following an imam blindly a muslim has failed his spiritual quest.”

    Yes, but how does this help me?

    it is repeatedly mentioned in the koran that fundamentalism and extremism should be rejected. at the same time the koran contradicts itself in several places.

    Yes, but how does this FECKIN’ help me? :-)

    “to blame the koran and to regard it as a mind control device is meaningless, inflammatory and downright stupid”.

    But don’t the Taliban, the Paksitani fanatics, the terrorists, the extremists, the ghazis, the suicide bombers, ALL draw their inspiration from the Koran? So it is a mind control device. And I agree that it is meaningless, inflammatory (of the terrorist BOOM type) and downright FECKIN’ stupid to do so.

    @ hhbb:
    “i love hhbb. hhbb for President of World”.
    I love you too. You can be my running mate. You can even be my FECKIN’ running mate. But not in the Clinton-Lewinsky sense. :-)

  155. @ Pankaj Roy

    “Rishi, Hara – I am bludgeoned”
    Sorry to hear that. I have suspected for a while that you were mentally challnged, and now I know why.

    “A conspiracy is abound to take away what is rightly ours”.
    Why is it a conspiracy? It is an open jehad.

    “But how much can you do living the good life in the US?”
    LOL, when did I EVER reside in the US? I spend most of my time in India. It is for the likes of you that I am reassessing my future residence in the umbra of the impending disaster encircling us, and trying to relocate abroad.

    “Hara, by his own admission, is already a legend in his own lifetime.”
    Don’t know where you got this idea. Someone suggested that Rishi and I would not have a life if we were not allowed to comment here. I retorted that we definitely would, and that sad person must have been superimposing the template of his own lonely life on to our’s. That was the point. That you have missed it is entirely understandable in the light of para 1.

    They also asked if I were good looking. Hey, I cannot lie, but God has been kind to me in this department.

  156. THE LIFE OF BALA-SANGA-PARIVAR

    NARRATED IN FIRST PERSON BY BALA-SANGA-PARIVAR.

    5.30 AM Wet my nappy. Wen’t back to sleep.

    6.30 AM Got up. Soiled my nappy. Went back to sleep.

    8.00 AM Mama woke me up and changed my nappy. She put new nappy on my face. She’s always doing that, as she cannot distinguish my posterior from my face as I am so ugly.

    9.00 AM Had breakfast. Soiled nappy again.

    10.00 AM Went to the doctor for the anti-biotics. The Chlamydia has not healed, but the gonorrhea seems to have disappeared. Both the oral and anal type. But doctor now says that I have Herpes. Damn that servant boy Bhola.

    11.00 to 12.00 Amused myself by drowning the cat and dismembering a few cockroaches.

    12.00 to 1.00 PM Had lunch

    1.00 to 2.00 PM Switched on computer.

    2.00 PM to 2.30 PM Had lunch again.

    2.30 PM to 3.30 PM Swore against Rishi and HHBB on the internet. Made up a few nomme de plumes for myself like Pankaj Roy, rishi khEjur, Pakele, ode to fundoos etc. I am sure no one will notice.

    3.30 to 4.30 PM Surfed some internet sites of special interest. Found out what a tranny means.

    4.30 PM Went out to my vernadah to have adda with friends.

    5.00 PM Suddenly realised that I don’t have any friends. Never had. So I make up an imaginary friend (today it is Pankaj Roy), and play agdum-bagdum with him. Followed by doctors and (male)-nurses.

    6.00 PM Bhola the servant boy comes.
    6.15 PM Bhola the servant boy COMES.
    6.30 PM I COMES.

    7.00 PM Dad comes home and asks to look at homework. Not much, but the distance learning school for the ‘materially challenged after bludgeoning’ does set homework once a month.

    7.01 to 7.15 PM Dad beats me up.

    7.15 to 7.45 PM DINNER

    7.45 to 8.00 PM Potty

    8.00 to 8.30 PM Dinner again

    8.30 to 9.30 PM Watch Al-Jazeera TV with family. That is where I get most of my information from.

    9.30 to 11.00 PM Deep thinking of how to humiliate these darned Rishi and HHBB fellows. I know, I’ll write about Rishi today under one name. Under another name I will request a write-up of HHBB. Under even another name, I will writge about HHBB tomorrow. Man, am I clever. I may be buldgeoned, but I am clever.

    11.00 PM to 3.00 AM Sleep and dream

    3.00 AM to 5.00 AM Sleep and wet dream

    5.01 AM Wet nappy (this time its a pee)

    5.30 AM Rush to computer to write a nice scathing article about HHBB’s life … only to find HHBB’s beaten me to it.

    Damn. My limpid article will have not effect now. None at all. Damn that HHBB to hell.

    Soil nappy again.

  157. @Rishi

    O my god please don’t raise your voice, I am scared to my bones, I just can not stop my self from shivering because Rishi has raised his voice………I DON’T GIVE A DAMN IF YOU RAISE YOUR VOICE OR NOT

    Now lets come to your responses –
    You wrote
    // As for your explanation about the offending verses that Sunil so nicely pointed out, YOU BY YOUR OWN EXPLANATION, ARE SUPPORTING THE FACT THAT KORAN PROMOTES DERISVE TREATMENT OF THE KAFIRS (which we Hindus, including your unfortunate forefathers, are).
    Here is a logic that you just presented.
    -Believer(Muslim) IS better than non believers (Kafir and Dhimmis, ie, Hindus, Jews others)
    -Believer will discriminate against non-believers (based on his asumption that he is better), but any return of favor from the non-believers is equated with persecution of believers.
    This percieved persecution of believer then puts the non-believer in a free for all atrocity recieving mode.
    Free for all atrocity on the non-beliver can be alleviated if the non-believer becomes a believer.
    //

    After going through your post I can conclude either of the two thing:
    1. Either you have not read through my post
    2. Or your English is too poor to understand what I have written.

    Since you seem like a educated oops sorry literate person I will rule out the second possibility. Nowhere I have stated or implied in any way that Believers can/should discriminate against /exploit non-believers or any return of favor from the non-believers is equated with persecution of believers (that’s pure crap). Hence there is no question of the supposedly perceived persecution of believer putting non-believer in a free for all atrocity receiving mode.

    What is being said again and again is that believers are not be the aggressors, they are to fight persecutors only till persecution is no more. Another thing to be noted is that peace and not war has been given preference. Rishi before saying that Quran perches hate after reading out of context/incomplete/incorrect verses from some propaganda site please do some research yourself.

    Now as far as people who you think are taking Quran out of context are concerned, I can not answer for them. They will be held accountable for what them have done on the day of judgment. Unlike you I do condemn killing of innocents irrespective of which religion they belong to.

    As far as Prophet is concerned, kindly quote a single instance where he did something that does not conform with the teachings of Quran. (Please don’t bother about pasting some out-of-context or made-up/ half-correct story from some hate site. Let me know of just one single instance i.e properly documented Sunnah).

    If we talk about someone “BENT ON DESTROYING HUMANITY”, do take a look at my posts and that of yours. I am the one who is saying that Haj subsidy should be scrapped, I am the one who is accepting that in a riot atrocities are committed/suffered by both communities, I am the one who is not mis-quoting verses of religious texts (o ya I can do that, with proper references, believe me you do not what to go that way). So if you are sincerely looking for A GENOCIDAL, HOMICIDAL, FUNDAMENTALISTIC MANIAC ALL YOU NEED TO DO IS LOOK IN A MIRROR. (I have no intention of raising my voice, you will get my point anyway)

  158. ^^
    Funny!

    Let me try now….
    Once a man went into a barber-shop thinking it was a restaurant. He asks the barber whats on the menu and the barber replies “Cutting and Shaving, saaar”. The customer replies “Bring one plate each of both!”
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    OMG I am sooooo smart and funny and my smart retorts and Parthian shots dazzle all these people!

  159. 1) Punter (A Kashmiri) wrote: “half a million people climbing up the glaciers does cause a lot of ecological damage”

    ———–

    Well that’s half a million walking or riding on ponies for a good part of the journey.

    Every year, 3 million people go to Haj from different countries by aircraft or ship, wasting millions of gallons of fuel and worse, as several environmental campaign groups in the UK have proved, they are doing a lot more ecological damage as the aircraft emit more of the main greenhouse gas than cars for each passenger they carry.

    One roundtrip flight from the India to Saudi Arabia produces as much carbon dioxide (CO2) as a year’s driving by the average European motorist. Commercial jets add almost as much to global warming annually as the whole of Africa.

    Should we advise our beloved Muslim brethren to stop going to Haj and stop the ecological damage they are causing?

    ———–
    2) Punter (A Kashmiri) wrote: “There is a general feeling in the valley that it is discriminated against by the powers that be in New Delhi. This feeling started some 60 years back and has only deepened with the passage of events.”

    ———–

    There is a general feeling in the Indian subcontinent (and that includes Kashmir) that the Dharmic civilization and Hindu culture have been severely damaged and reduced to half of what it once was, thanks to “Arabic Imperialism Masquerading as a Religion” .

    This feeling started some 1300 years back since the first Islamic invasion of India in 636 C.E, and has only deepened with the centuries of the horrific Islamic occupation and passage of events.

    For a quick summary, I would recommend that you read The Legacy of Jihad in India by Andrew G. Bostom

  160. 3) Punter (A Kashmiri) wrote: “Talk to an average Kashmiri and you can feel the mistrust under the surface. Of course a lot of it is true, as can be seen by the recent issue of the discovery of mass graves.”
    ———–

    Talk to an average Indian and you can feel the indignation of Islamic subjugation under the surface. Of course a lot of it is true, as can be seen by the recent mass murders of Hindus and Sikhs all over Jammu & Kashmir.

    The non-violent, original heirs of the 5000-year old Kashmiri Hindu civilization were wiped out in 1989 and the remaining vestiges are being mopped up in Nandimarg, Wandhama, Chattisinghpora, Wandhama, Kaluchak, Sangrampora, Dhakikot, Prankot, Champanari, Qasim Nagar.

    And a “moderate” Kashmiri Muslim leader, Mr. Yasin Malik (who has the blood of scores of Kashmiri Hindus and 4 Indian Air Force Officers murdered while waiting for a bus in Avantipora, on his hands) has the temerity to say that this Amarnath Yatra episode is “an attempt to introduce Hindu culture into Kashmir” .

    ———–
    4) Punter (A Kashmiri) wrote: “human rights violations committed by the armed forces of India continue in an atmosphere of impunity’. …… Thats what a Kashmiri means when he says that he feels like a second class citizen in India.
    ———–
    Let’s enumerate the divine deeds of compassion by the Kashmiri converts in an atmosphere of Koranic impunity:

    • Ever heard of Girija Kumari Tickoo who was stripped, gangraped for many days, placed on a band saw and starting from her genitalia and moving up, she was sliced into two halves by her converted Kashmiri brethren on June 11, 1990.

    • Ever heard of Hindu babies and children who were beheaded with axes by their Muslim brethren in Dhakikot and Prankot on April 17, 1998 ?

    • Ever heard of the successful religious genocide against an entire native population (Kashmiri Hindu population) by their converted cousins within the past decade? Congratulations to my converted brethren on a job well-executed.

    • Read more of the wonderful Islamic exploits in Kashmir: Kashmir: Wail of a Valley by Mohan Lal Koul

  161. Hello “A small Clarification”

    Many thanks for taking out the time and putting in significant effort to produce the above verses. I have a lot to say so please bear with me. Thanks.

    Firstly, If I am not mistaken you are using a translation of the Quran by Pickthall. The same Marmaduke Pickthall about whom the following has been said.

    “A convert from Christianity to Islam, Pickthall was a novelist, esteemed by D. H. Lawrence, H. G. Wells, and E. M. Forster, as well as a journalist, headmaster, and political and religious leader. He declared his Islam in dramatic fashion after delivering a talk on ‘Islam and Progress’ on November 29, 1917, to the Muslim Literary Society in Notting Hill, West London.”

    What is more important however is the following –

    “A strong advocate of the Ottoman Empire even prior to declaring his faith as a Muslim”

    “When a propaganda campaign was launched in the UK in 1915 over the massacres of Armenians, Pickthall rose to challenge it and argued that all the blame could not be placed on the Turkish government”

    “Pickthall said he was ready to be a combatant for his country so long as he did not have to fight the Turks.”

    So in effect you are using the translation of the Quranby a person whose first Language was not Arabic, who was an apologist for the Ottoman empire and MOST Importantly REFUSED TO FIGHT FOR HIS OWN COUNTRY AGAINST THE TURKS SINCE THEY WERE HIS CO-RELIGIONISTS.

    Source – Wikipedia.

    Part 2 to follow.

  162. 5) Punter (A Kashmiri) wrote: “But for the man on the ground, it seems like the first in a series of steps designed to further alienate him. To him, many promises have been broken in the past and he is very wary of any new thing.”
    ———–

    This is a bully’s sense of entitlement, plain and simple. Let’s see what promises have made and successfully kept.

    (i) Article 370 made Jammu and Kashmir a country within a country, with its own flag, emblem, constitution and Sadr-i-Riyasat (Prime Minister) – this is something that goes against the spirit of India. Yet this promise has still been kept.

    And if you would like to know how Article 370 has been successful in driving the original heirs, the Kashmiri Hindus, out from their ancestral homeland by oppression .. ..please read: “Living under the shadow of Article 370″

    (ii) Kashmiris can reside anywhere in India, buy land and property anywhere in India, and start a business in any other part of India. But other Indian citizens (non-Kashmiris) do not have equal right as Kashmiris as the other Indian citizens (non-Kashmiris) CANNOT reside in J&K, or buy land/ property there nor start a business in Jammu & Kashmir.

    This promise too has still been kept till date…even though it has two disastrous derivatives for the rest of India:

    1) India is a “joint Hindu-Muslim account” while Kashmir is a “sole Muslim account”.

    2) As the Indian Government would say to the Muslim-dominated J&K government: MY money is YOUR money, but YOUR money is YOUR money.

    (iii) DID YOU KNOW: Today, 16 Lakh (1.6 million) Hindu refugees languish in Jammu & Kashmir – all thanks to Islamic intransigence and its bitch (India’s secular polity):

    (a) During the 1965 and 1971 wars, lakhs of Hindus living in Pakistan had fled persecution there and sought refuge in Jammu & Kashmir. Their descendants today, who number more than 7 Lakh (700,000) live in penury, as stateless refugees in J&K without voting rights or right to settle down/build homes there even after 40 years.

    (b) In addition to the above refugees, Hindus from Pakistani Occupied Kashmir (or what you would call “Azad Kashmir”/Free Kashmir) had also fled from POK and sought refuge in Jammu & Kashmir. Today, their descendants number more than 5 Lakh (500,000) and live as stateless refugees in J&K without voting rights or right to settle down/build homes there.

    (c) 400,000 Kashmiri Pandits, constituting 99% of the total population of Hindus living in Muslim majority area of the Kashmir Valley, were forcibly pushed out of the Valley by Muslim terrorists, trained in Pakistan, since the end of 1989. They have been forced to live the life of exiles in their own country, outside their homeland, by unleashing a systematic campaign of terror, murder, loot and arson.

    Add up the numbers and you will get the total of 1.6 million Hindu refugees who face persecution, criminal neglect and worse – in today’s Jammu & Kashmir.

    The Indian government, which is pouring millions of dollars in funds to Muslim-dominated J&K state, is unable to give any respectable status to these 1.6 million Hindu refugees for fear of displeasing the Muslims.

    So, who should be aggrieved against whom?

    (iv) Islam in Kashmir lives off the Indian taxpayer’s expense and the Islamic life-style has been kept afloat, thanks to crores of rupees from the Indian taxpayers (a majority of them Hindu).

    However, Islam’s contributions to Kashmir and to India (apart from the successful partition and religious genocide of their Hindu cousins, the terrorist attack on the Indian Parliament in 2001 and the ongoing massacres by well-planned, regular bomb blasts) are ZILCH … ZIP…ZERO.

    So, who should be aggrieved against whom, my friend?

  163. I see Hujur, Khujur, Bom-Man etc are doing Yeoman’s service to Hinduism and all and I am sorry to butt into the Reconquista, but its B-A-L-A-L-S-A-N-G-H Parivar not Bala Sangh Parivar. “Balal” means forced and “Sangh” can also mean union… so work out what BalalSangh means. :P

    It also used to be the name of my cricket team in iskool…. other team names were “Gone (from the crease) in 60 seconds”, “Mustafa and his Psychedelic Bellydancers” (I am sure those Industrial Engg crap-games lifted this name from somewhere else), “Civil Intercourse” (no prizes for guessing which dept), “Big Inswinging D1cks” etc and the wimmens team “Slips and Fine Legs”. Of course we proposed that the wimmens team change title to “Gully Between Fine Legs” but they sweetly declined….. and for some reason every spectator gathered at Long Stop angle when their Wicket-Keeper took position.

    Chal!

  164. Like most comment threads, this has once again moved to the all-so-familiar terrain of religion as opposed to religion-driven politics. Please refrain from discussions on verses and lines (simply because that have been done many times before here on this blog, elsewhere all over the Net and many times already in this thread) –if you want to discuss Kashmir and the politics behind the persecution, go ahead. Else I shall have to, regretfully, moderate the discussion.

    [I just had my wisdom tooth pulled and am under painkillers. Hence may be irregular in looking through my comments]

  165. @SUNIL,

    You have raised very valid point that the translation of Quran that I have quoted is from Pickthall.

    The translation that I have quoted has been endorsed by The Islamic Computing Centre, London..

    The reason for giving translation from Pickthall is that he has provided translation in normal (for most part) English. I can also provide the translation of same verses by a Arabic scholar but it would be in Shakespearian English (thou, thee, ye and all those niceties) and hence demand more time to understand them (most people reading these comments will not have that much patience).

    Rest assured, before replying to your queries, I have compared translations in both normal English (by Pickthall) and Shakespearian English before posting the my responses. I encourage you to do the same yourself.

    Also, kindly quote the source from where you have obtained these translations.

    In verses 009:009 to 018, as I have already explained and event of a battle is illustrated and the Almighty is describing the way in which he helped believers, and is commanding/encouraging believers to hold steadfast on the eve of battle with non-believers.

    Yes, I do agree that Islam is a monotheistic religion and severe punishment has been promised for wrong-doers and those who worship anyone but the Almighty.

  166. Hooray! Sanity at long last!!

    What a relief after the juvenile nonsense on display here by bigots masquerading as intellectuals! But then, what’s new? GB’s commentspace has been hijacked by this bunch of rabble rousers countless times before, peddling their hate-filled websites and their casual bigotry.
    The one sensible post by Punter and its message has completely been sidelined by these self-professed authorities on everything under the sun.

  167. Hello Arnab Da,

    My apologies for littering your space with verses and getting involved in a discussion with ” A small Clarification” which you feel is inappropriate.

    Hello ” A small clarification”

    I feel that Pickthall is not good source for reasons I have already stated above. I have used a translation from the Urdu Version of the Quran by ” Imam Ahl-e-Sunnat Maulana Shah Ahmed Raza Khan”

    You said –

    “Yes, I do agree that Islam is a monotheistic religion and severe punishment has been promised for wrong-doers and those who worship anyone but the Almighty”

    My Response –

    I rest my case.

    Regards,

    Sunil.

  168. @Rishi

    Thanks for the link.

    I have no issues with Hinduism or with any religion for that matter.

    I actually think that Hinduism is a very old religion which has stood the test of time and followers of Hinduism (rishi, muni and sadhus) actually excelled in pretty much every sphere of life.

    Most of my friends are also Hindus, my objection to you is that you are treating blood of a Hindu to be more precious then that of a Muslim. And you are vilifying a religion by quoting (some text from a book which most of the people reading this post have no notion about) and sitting specific incidents to make more people join your ranks. All you are doing is intentionally/unintentionally polarizing the society along religious lines, this is a recipe for mayhem. So don’t do it.

    You have a skill, you write very well, and I am quite certain that you are a voracious reader as well. My humble request to you is use this gift of God for love and peace not for spreading hate.

    @Sunil

    My serious recommendation to you is please read five verses preceding and five verses succeeding the verse you find offensive from any translation (by a learned Arabic scholar and not from any hate site) of Quran. I am sure in most of the cases your misgivings will be resolved. I re-iterate in Quran and Islam peace has been given preference over war.

    Rest (including how you (Rishi and Sunil) and others interpret this post) is up to you.

    You don’t have to respond to my post, this in most likelihood will be my final post on w.r.t this topic.

    P.S @Greatbong – I do realize that this is your blog, I do apologize if in anyway I have troubled you. Get well soon.

  169. @Sunil and A Small Clarification

    No need to apologize…all discussions are welcome ! Except that we seem to be stuck in an infinite loop on this very specific topic of Quaranic interpretations.

    @Everyone,
    Feel free to post what you feel (as long as it is not hate speech) —if anything I feel is not appropriate, I shall moderate it. And I promise, as always, to be extremely lenient about what I moderate.

  170. Hello ” A Small Clarification”

    I have read five verses preceding and five verses following the “offensive” verse and explained how the verse is still offensive. My comments on the verses are awaiting moderation and if and when GB allows them to be posted, you will be able to see my viewpoint better. My source as I have mentioned above is not a hate site on the quran but the translation of an urdu version that was compiled by Imam Ahl-e-Sunnat Maulana Shah Ahmed Raza Khan. I do not wish to spread hatred, but have a commitment to the truth and it is in this endeavour that I have questioned you so far. I would be grateful if we could take this converstaion forward on another forum so that I can enrich myself with your knowledge.

    My email id is the_ironjaw@yahoo.com

    Hope to keep in touch with you.

    Regards

    Sunil.

  171. So, can I get the Gita Govinda also banned ‘coz of the lines
    “mleccha-nivaha-nidhane kalayasi karavalam
    dhumaketum iva kim api karalam
    kesava dhrita-kalki-sarira jaya jagadisa hare”.

    I am offended by this, three of my eleven wives are Mleccha-Jati. I don’t want them killed by some avatar-schavatar in a white horse! If anything kills them hoes, it’s gonna be my bare hands!

    Then there is this;
    “Eko vishnu Mahadbhutham pradag Bhutanyanekasa,
    Treem lokan vyapya bhutatma bhungte viswabhugavyaya ”

    What? “Rules all the worlds”? I am offended… *my* God, Marduk the Devourer, is the ruler of all things! Can I get this Vishnu Sahasranamam banned too? There are other verses saying “You are the perfection” and all! Not acceptable. And this is Sahasranamam repeated by millions of Hindus everyday and blared from temple speakers you know…. I find it as offensive as the Islamic call to prayer with it’s “La Illaha Il Allah” and the offensive verses and the Sikh “Ek Onkar”!

    I know by “truthiness” that some extremist nutcase will use these words to cleanse the world of the heretics! Doesn’t the Bajrangi and Babbar Khalsa types go around saying all this even now? Why shouldn’t I take an anticipatory bail for all these dogmas and self-appointed Protectors…. ?!
    Quick… Calcutta Sahasranamam Petition! Calcutta Granth Sahib Petition! Calcutta Quran Petition Take 2.0.0! I want to save Hindus and Sikhs and Muslims and Rastafarians and Cthulhuites from the tyranny of their “Shastras” and books and those who claim to tell them what a True Believer should be like.
    :P

  172. Paap se dharti fati…
    Adharm se aasmaan…
    Atyachaar se kaampi insaaniyat…
    Raaj kar rahe haivaan…

    Jinki hogi taaqat apoorv
    Jinka hoga nishaana abhed…
    Jo karenge inka sarvanaash…
    Woh kehlaayenge…
    Tridev! Tridev! Tridev!

  173. Sensational comment thread…after quite a while on RTDM. These 200 comment threads will be analyzed with meticulous care 200 years later by sociology majors to understand world as it is in the present day,the Kashmir controversy through the eyes of the voice of conscience of the present century, the indomitable human spirit to live and let live (HHBB’s success in life and his efforts to make his country a better place to live for future generations despite being stymied, threatened and thwarted by rabid religious dogs),and most importantly, the malicious and malevolent set of verses which otherwise goes by the name of Q. Not the Q of hearts.

  174. Arunabh for Prime Minister!

    I have never voted- and if things continue this way I never intend to- if I have to chose between Mayawati and Mulayam, then I’d rather not vote. Wishing for the day when even India would get saner politicians- someone like Greatbong! Enough of this fence sitting commentary, Greatbong, how about some active politics? If you can be the most popular blogger in India today, surely you can be, or rather you ought to be – a popular minister in the future.

  175. What an amazing effort on the part of Sunil,Rishi, HHBB etc…hats off..as usual some people have come down to the level of personal insults..just like U-Tube meessage boards..

    for further reading refer a site called http://www.bengalgenocide.com

    LOL..GB is right when he says the discussion is stuck in the infinite loob of Quranic interpretations….that process is endless..

    Heres anoter problem:

    US in Afghanistan Taliban fights US Pakistan voluntarily/involuntarily supports Taliban = US fights Pakistan ???

    any good theories are welcome…

  176. @yourfan2
    Dude you are really funny……
    You have made me come back for one last comment, this is a classic case of Pot calling the kettle black. If anyone will do a sociological research on the posts in this blog, he will in most likelihood analyze/conclude how a bunch individuals, who still have humanity left in them, fought off hordes of murderous and genocidal religious fanatics.
    “indomitable human spirit to live and let live “ … “rabid religious dogs “ ha ha ha you sure are funny, this just means that either you cannot understand written English or you have not read the posts.
    And as far as a$$ licking of HHBB’s success goes, he sure has achieved a quite a lot in the first 29 years of his life. But just for your information by the grace of Almighty I am a MBA from the topmost B-school in France (no need to mention what its name is) and I am just 26.

  177. Just some general questions on them dastardly, murdering Muslims who routinely carry off Hindu wimmen, torture puppies, bathe in Kufr blood, burn the national flag, trample the smurfs and all that jazz….
    Do you chant these offensive verses every day, 5 times a day and it drives you into murderous frenzy? Answer me yeeeeevil ones…. when you pick up the misbah or do the salat do you go “Kill Kufr. Rape Kufr wimmen and men three ways. Enslave Kufr children. Impale Babu Bajrangi” etc or do you just praise Allah and Muhammed? In the Friday prayers do they blare out the offensive verses from the Quran alone and you immediately get the cue and proceed to do rapine and plunder of Hindu India? Or does the Mullah explicitly does the Fire and Brimstone jig with cherrypicked verses from the Quran?
    If it’s the latter case, who’s guilty…. is it the *person* who’s making the call for violence or is it the book he is selectively quoting. I dunno about the screaming warriors here but I don’t think one in a hundred Muslims can tell between a classical-arabic verse and Jotun-Troll speaking Double Dutch.

    What does the usual Madrassah/Yateemkhana Mullahs (or your in-house “Sunday classes”/own folks) tell you when they gets to those verses? Is it something like m Biology teacher in ischool skipped the human reproductive system chapter when she came to it? ;)
    Or does he go hammer and tongs at the vile Kufr and Yehudi-Yamrikan-Yindoo conjpirajy?

  178. Only a few words to be added here. The earliest adopters of Islam were marauding tribes primarily engaged in running over and trampling any hint of civilization in their path, in the meantime looting all of their wealth too. For such a religion, where its stalwarts had no regard and tolerance for any other kind of belief system or civilization to coexist, I don’t see any reason why we should expect them to behave logically or rationally.

    This is quite clear even in the modern world. In the Islamic republics/monarchies, you can’t always have your freedom of choice in most of the things you do. But once muslims migrate to other countries, you’d see them ripping off everyone’s head, troubling the local governments to accede to their demands of hijab, sharia law and whatever the fk exists in their narrow minded, dingy world. Why the eff should we bother about what is written in a book which they follow? I have absolutely no interest in knowing their religious mysteries. Also I fail to understand what gives them the audacity to even think that they are the only righteous persons in the whole world and we wimpy minions shall go by whatever they demand? But then, isn’t their prime objective, according to the oh-so-holy-book, to spread the rule of Islam all over the world (and while they are at it, also to cut off anyone’s head who dares to disagree)?

  179. @A Small Clarification

    A Small Clarification wrote: “And as far as a$$ licking of HHBB’s success goes, he sure has achieved a quite a lot in the first 29 years of his life. But just for your information by the grace of Almighty I am a MBA from the topmost B-school in France (no need to mention what its name is) and I am just 26.”

    But the other thing that differ is HHBB mentioned about his professional life when he was accussed of having no life apart from making comments in blogs. But your unprovoked gleeful comparison can hardly be categorized as anything but self-trumpeting.

  180. @anonymous coward

    //I am not comparing India to Saudi Arabia. I was just saying that when the INDIAN government spends MY tax money for Haj subsidy, it is discriminating between ‘believers’ and ‘non-believers’. When roads are blocked (your pet peeve), they are blocked for EVERYONE. In one case, secular government discriminating, in other case it isnt.//

    So your argument is that the roads are blocked for everyone! Well the tax money for the haj subsidy is also taken for everyone! Tax rates in this country are the same for everyone unless you belong to a Hindu Undivided Family, in which case you get some rebates

    Both have benefits that accrue to one religion (pandals, subsidized flights) and the payment is made by everyone (blocked streets leading to losses, taxes which fuel the subsidy)

    This is getting boring. Try and come up with something better, my man

    //Now coming to principle of blocking roads themselves. We as a nation seem to have accepted the idea that blocking roads to protest, take out processions, hartals etc is OK. It could be the atheist communists protesting against George Bush or some religious group. So as long as blocking roads is acceptable, whether the reason is religious or non-religious doesn’t matter. We have a fundamental right to assemble peacefully and if the accepted principle is that we can coolly assemble in the middle of the road, we will go ahead and do that. Of course it sucks big time for those who dont believe in the ’cause’ for the roadblock. //

    The courts have banned bandhs and hartals in the country on the basis that it disrupts public life. Why not apply the same logic to the Pujas?

    //Regarding Tirupati, take a look at this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirumala_Tirupati_Devasthanams . Apparently the state government is in control. Naidu was part of United Front government till 1998. NDA ruled from 1998-2004, a period of 6 years. Naidu was booted out in the 2004 elections. So stop throwing incorrect figures like there was an NDA goverment in AP for 10 years.//

    Oh, I’m sorry. So the NDA ruled AP for only 6 years. Now isn’t that a shame. So how long does it take to relinquish control of a temple anyways? More than 6 years?

    Btw, its really interesting how you criticize govt temple boards but have no qualms about supporting the amarnath shrine board. Ah, hypocrisy. Where would the right-wing be without it?

    //As things stand, your taxes go to help people make Haj pilgrimages. Temple priests are fed by donations to the temples. I don’t know of any temple which is maintained by the government. //

    Excerpt from the Governor’s Address 2003 in the TN assembly:
    “Annadhanam Scheme”, launched by the Hon’ble Chief Minister, aimed at providing free mid-day meals to devotees in temples, has been widely appreciated by the people. This scheme is presently being implemented in 144 temples. This Government plans to extend the Annadhanam scheme in phases to cover more temples.

    http://www.assembly.tn.gov.in/archive/Governoraddress/governoraddrs_en_2003.htm

    Please do express yr outrage about this “sickular” act as you have been doing about the haj subsidy.

    //Anyway, how is it relevant to my point about a donation at Tirupati. Taxes are involuntary and you have no idea how the government will allocate money in the budget. But a voluntary donation to a Hindu temple; I have pretty high expectations that the money will go towards Hinduism, not Haj.//

    Point not relevant as these donations are not voluntary. Refer to excerpt above.

    //And now coming to the very interesting point you raised about government interference. Why is the government not turning its reformist zeal towards Islam ? Leaving aside whether its good or bad, a secular government should either leave Hinduism alone, or try to reform other religions as well. This selective approach reeks of double standards, which are the hallmark of Indian secularism. I dont want to live under medieval laws, but it seems that AIMPL wants that for Indian muslims. The BJP is for Uniform Civil Code, but unfortunately, no other party is supporting it//

    Hence, the very fact that the govt interfering in Hinduism has helped it. It’s a tragedy that in this day and age the Muslims of the country would want to be ruled by laws as barbaric as the Muslim personal laws and Hinduism has come out of that largely due to govt. interference, which was not forthcoming for Islam. I again ask you to read up on how the Hindu code bills were passed in the 50s by Nehru.

  181. Continued from my previous 3 sets of comments above
    ———–
    6) Punter (A Kashmiri) wrote: Further, there was a lot of resentment specifically against SK Sinha in the valley because of many other things he had done in the past. His high handedness and repeated coonfrontation with the CM was the reason for this.
    ———–

    Governor Lt. Gen. S.K. Sinha was a solid bulwark against Islamic expansionism and anti-Indian interests in the valley. Lt. Gen. Sinha was a good foil to the “Slave of the Prophet” (translates as: Ghulam Nabi) and the Mufti (Mohammed Sayeed) that sought to increase the tempo of Islamic totalitarianism in the entire state. That should explain the Kashmiri resentment against Lt. Gen. Sinha.

    ———–
    7) Punter (A Kashmiri) wrote: [Governor Gen. S.K. Sinha] increased the duration of [Amarnath] yatra from 15 days to two months…. But why can’t the number of yatris be restricted?
    ———–

    How tragic for India that Hindus had to plead with folded hands to be allowed to go on a pilgrimage in India, during the two months of the summer when the weather actually permits it.

    Unfortunately for the Ummah, Kashmir is still in India, not in Saudi Arabia where some would rather wish it would be. So, I see that for a moderate Muslim like yourself, it is a cherished dream to restrict the pilgrims or reduce the duration of the Amarnath pilgrimage gradually before.

    Amarnath was there before Islam was “invented”, and Amarnath will continue to be there after this “alien madness” is long-gone.

  182. 8) Punter (A Kashmiri) wrote: The fact is that Kashmiris are not against the yatra. And this is the reason that the yatra was never stopped during the protests and is still going on peacefully. The agitation was never against hindus and the fact that it is a hindu pilgrimage is just incidental to the protests.
    ———–

    What do you mean when you state that “Kashmiris are not against the yatra”? Is “Kashmiri” synonymous with “Muslim” only? What happened to the original heirs of the 5000-year old Kashmiri Hindu civilization?

    Never mind. I think I answered my own question.

    And what propaganda !!! I suppose these repeated, gruesome massacres of Amarnath (listed below) are just unplanned accidents:

    (i) August 1, 2000

    At least 48 Hindu pilgrims were killed in Pahalgam base camp of Amarnath Yatra when Islamic terrorists threw grenades and pumped bullets into the pilgrims who were sitting down to eat their meals.

    (ii) July 20, 2001

    13 people were killed and another 15 wounded in an attack by terrorists on the Amarnath Yatra. The Islamic terrorists exploded land mines then engaged Indian security forces in a gun battle at Sheshnag, halfway along the route to the cave-shrine of Amarnath.

    (iii) July 30, 2002

    In their first strike on Amarnath pilgrims this year, Islamic terrorists have killed two pilgrims and left five others wounded, when a cab was blown up with a grenade blast in Anantnag township of south Kashmir. The broad daylight strike was carried out amid heavy security arrangements this evening when the Jammu-bound pilgrims were returning after darshan from the holy cave.

    (iv) August 6, 2002

    In the second strike on Amarnath pilgrims within a week, Islamic terrorists attacked the heavily guarded base camp, gunning down nine devotees and injuring 30 others in their sleep in the wee hours at Nunwan near Pahalgam today. The Hindu pilgrims were attacked in the early hours of Tuesday morning, while they were sleeping at a camp on their way to a shrine in the foothills of the Himalayas. Gunmen threw grenades and then opened fire on the resting pilgrims.

    And still they have not given up….As you read this, they are still trying hard to kill more Amarnath pilgrims. Every year, the security forces routinely detect and defuse several powerful landmines planted along the path of the Amarnath pilgrims. But for the Indian Army, more Amarnath pilgrims would have become sheesh-kabab.

    Let me give you some latest news from the last two weeks that exposes your lies and shows the “warm” hospitality of the Kashmiri converts towards Hindus participating in the Amarnath Yatra:

    (v) June 25, 2008

    Four Amarnath pilgrims (including three women) were attacked and suffered severe eye injuries and facial wounds as irate Muslim mobs in Srinagar smashed windscreens and attacked vehicles carrying Amarnath pilgrims at Foreshore Road near Nishat on the banks of Dal lake. The victims were identified as Saroj Agarwal (50), Raj Kumari (40), Bhumika (50) and Yogesh Kumar (20).

    (vi) 2 Jul 2008

    1 Hindu was killed, and 21 others were critical after Muslims tossed a grenade attack on a Hindu Amarnath procession when it was returning to Laxmi Narayan Temple at Bhaderwah. The dead Hindu was identified as Manjit Singh.

    (vii) July 7 2008

    “Amarnath pilgrims return with tales of terror”

    UNI

    Dharamshala: Even as the controversy over the allotment of land to Amarnath Shrine Board by the Jammu and Kashmir Government refuses to die, the pilgrims to the famous shrine have returned with tales of terror with the Jammu and Kashmir Police being a mute spectator.

    A mob attack the pilgrims at Baltal on July one and their vehicles damaged, while the Jammu and Kashmir Police stood as a mute spectator to this terror, pilgrims Ravikant Dogra, Sanjay Sharma and Suresh Rana said at a press conference here.

    ”We had dharshan of the icelingum in the holy cave on June 29 and returned to Baltal on June 30 morning but were not allowed to proceed to Srinagar by the Jammu and Kashmir police,” they alleged.

    The following day a huge mob beat up pilgrims and damaged at least 25 vehicles and forced pilgrims to raise ”Pakistan Zindabad” slogans, while the state police personnel did nothing, they alleged.

    They said at one point of time they wanted to leave the vehicles there and rush home, but it was a state of helplessness and they had no option but to face the mob wrath.

    Besides, they alleged, the pilgrims were charged Rs 500 to Rs 1,000 per person for getting shelter in a tent near the cave on June 29.

    A bottle of water was sold to them at Rs 46 and 250 ml milk bottle at Rs.40 with no official of the state government present to redress their grievances, they added.

  183. 9) Punter (A Kashmiri) wrote: “unfortunately it looks like the curse on Kashmir is not yet over. ”
    ————–

    The curse on Kashmir started in the the 13th century when the peaceful, indigenous culture of Kashmir was crushed by thousands of crafty, violent, foreigners like Syed Bulbul Shah (of Turkey), Syed Ali Hamadani (from Iran), Syed Mohammed Hamadani (from Iran) and subjected to mass murders by Sultan Sikander “Budh-Shikan” (“The Destroyer of Hindu Icons”) and Aurangzeb.

    The curse on medieval Kashmir came in 3 choices: Convert to Islam, Get Beheaded or Watch Your Womenfolk Getting Raped.

    The curse on Kashmir will end only when the children of forced converts do serious soul searching and decide to reject the ideology that their Hindu ancestors had no choice but to succumb to it.

    The curse on Kashmir will end only when YOU spiritually re-embrace your Kashmiri forefathers whose blood flows in your veins – Sage Kashyap (after who Kashmir is named), Lalit Aditya, Avanti Varman and Kalhana; not the Hamdanis or Bulbul Shah who hated your forefathers for who they were.

    I quote Sriyanto for a beautiful observation that is relevant to Kashmir today:

    “Any particle will be in an agitated state until it returns to its undisturbed, natural state of harmony (which is the core of every being). The ultraviolence seen in [Kashmir], Indonesia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia and other converted lands today is a result of the agitation produced in people’s minds due to conversion to a foreign way-of-life.

    When all its peoples return to their true intrinsic state of Dharma, they will find their peace that is at the core of their hearts. Until then, the violence will continue… just like a ship battered by a storm that is brought about by foreign winds churning up the water into gigantic waves. When the foreign winds subside and go away, then the storm ceases and the water becomes still and attains a calm state of being (that is its harmonic state).”

    Beautiful. I couldn’t have said it better.

    10) Though this has been a sad episode, it has been an eye-opening one for many.

    The Amarnath episode has been another “Purdah Fash” that exposed the real, unmasked face of Isl … wait …I mean “The Religion of Peace and Co-existence” to the whole world.

  184. 1. @Hara hara bom bom

    //Which country in the world tolerates people who have brutalised them for over 1,300 years with no recrimination or retaliation? //

    Ah, the ol’ argument again. Really to go into the history of india since the 12th century might be a bit tedious but then maybe its necessary for misguided soul, like you.
    You must understand that the history of India isn’t yr avg hindi film with a hero and a villain. It’s a lot grayer than that. Let me give you some example to show you that India’s history is not a Hindu vs Muslim monologue :

    #Tipu Sultan had alliances with the Marathas, against the English, after he became king.

    #Aurangzeb waged a protracted war against the Muslim Deccan states bringing the Mughal Empire almost to bankruptcy.

    #Much has been made of the enmity between Muslims and Sikhs after the slaying of guru tegh bahadur for refusing to convert to Islam. Yet Ranjit, the greatest sikh king, had a foreign minister who was a Muslim named, I think, Azizuddin

    And this one, I think, clinches it:

    #You say that for 1300 years, Indian history is a long story of Muslim rulers oppressing their hindu subjects, right? Yet when the largely Hindu Sepoys , for a brief while overthrew the British in ’57, who did they turn to lead them? A senile 80 year old man, who was also the mughal king – bahadur shah zafar. Would these hindu sepoys have done that is as you say the mughals had “for over 1,300 years with no recrimination or retaliation”

    But then I don’t blame you. Actually understanding Indian History isn’t an easy task and it is all too easy to generalize, especially when you are a bigot, if you don’t mind me saying so.

    // We should have been as secular as Pakistan and Bangladesh, where a 35% pre-partition population has plummeted to 0.6% in Pak.//

    So basically you are regretful of the fact that India isn’t as fundamentalist as Pakistan, right? There’s almost a note of sadness in yr writing: “they massacred their minorites so well and look at us gutless Indians. We couldn’t carry out a proper genocide also. Damn”

    //I weep that India is the only country in the world to act with such egregious cowardice and sycophancy, and that it does not act with the same degree of zeal and passion as secular nations.//

    If you call not conducting genocides and mass murder campaigns “cowardice” then I feel sorry for you. Maybe after the Riots in Gujarat you were a bit prouder of India. After all there’s no better way to show that yr not a coward than by murdering a few hundred women and children in cold blood, right?

  185. @ Hades:

    Seems like it is you whose understanding of history in India is like that of a Bollywood movie….
    and you know very little about the great Maharaja Ranjit Singhji.

    Ask a Muslim in Pakistan’s Punjab and they will tell you how Maharaja Ranjit Singh kicked their a$$. Ranjit Singh’s interaction with followers of Koran, was from a position of strength (after a long time in that part of the world)
    He was instrumental in bringing back thousands of Muslims BACK into Sikh and Hindu fold. You ought to thank him for that.

    Again, in Gujrat, 10% Muslim minorities caused 30% of the casualties in the riot. Close to 1400 people died.
    A 10% population causes 30% of the casualties. It seems that in Gujrat it were the followers of Koran who take the larger share of blame.

    Grow up…it isnt fashionable to be pseudo-secular anymore.

  186. @ Hujur
    Fantastic sets of material on Kashmir, you have provided. I think they should carry these as printouts with them, when they do they next talks with Hurriyat and Pakistan.

  187. Hastur be praised!
    The good book says that “Thou canst twist the numbers in ways many”:- 10% caused 30% (Hindu) causalities (i.e. 300 Hindus)….. I suppose those 100 odd Hindus killed in police firing were killed by [edited] Muslim cops?! How onlee you identified them by their [edited] bullet cartridges or messages carved on the shots (“This is for Quasar Bano” or “Without any malice from Constable Aseem Bohra, Old City, Ahmedabad” or “With XOXOXO from Anjuman Multani” or something like thaat, saar? :P

  188. @ BSP
    Interesting, so you mean to say that the police and administration acted fairly in Gujrat :)

    Ha…so Modiji afterall wasnt the evil monster.

    Now BSP, that is a catch-22 for you pseudo-secularists. Either admit that Muslims were the overall agressors throughout the Gujrat riots, OR, admit that the state administration under Narendra Modi was trying to stop riots, even going to the extent of shooting Hindus.
    :) You remind me of a guy named, “The Wanderer” who a few months back buzzed around for a while before entangling himself in his own dried saliva.

  189. As expected…. bismillah.
    Bhy did firing begin only after March 3? You know… AFTER the Paramilitary came in (after 3 days of stalling and another 3 days to get a CO). Gujarat State Police were doing what only till then? Why is it that all the firing dead were found with SLR rounds (which Paramilitary uses) when Guj state police is armed with .303s?

    And The Wanderer person….. you mean the one who the warriors here chased off with Mosquito war planes and sophomoric “pantiewaalah” retorts? You guys actually entangled him in his own saliva? Good for you!Here…. grab your prize, a bronze statue of Keanu Reeves!

    Anyway, I don’t take myself so seriously ya’ know. I see you masters have p1ssed all around the comments space to mark territory and all that… do carry on and don’t mind this fruit fly onlee. I am just the piano-player sideshow-freakshow in this Carnivale. :P

    On that note…. where’s Shan?

  190. @ Anand aka BalalSangh Parivar aka The Wanderer
    I guess this was coming.

    -When did the THREE DAYS start and end?? On February 27, 59 Hindus (including 25 women and 15 children) were torched alive by the Jihadi mob in Godhra. On Feb 28, the riots broke out. On March 1st, the Army was called out. Where are those famous THREE DAYS??

    February has 28 days in non leap years. 2002 was NOT a leap year !!

    MISSING THREE DAYS!!!

    -No firing paramilitary/state can be ordered without the apporval of the local administration.

    -And SLRs are available to State police as well.

    Boy!! you made a biiiiigg Doo Doo.

  191. @ hhbb:

    i’m sorry my comment did not feckin help you.

    i would rather not be your mate for anything . it’s not you. it’s me.

    @ rishi:

    BalalSangh Parivar is very similar in writing style to the Wanderer. the prose is so GOOD..

    in general, there is a certain assumption that you make, i.e. islam is and has been good for nothing.

    so mark my words: this is your hubris and why your cause and efforts are doomed to be a failure.

  192. Hades says:
    “The courts have banned bandhs and hartals in the country on the basis that it disrupts public life. Why not apply the same logic to the Pujas?”

    Just curious, would you also advocate banning Friday Namaz on streets? I know areas around Bandra completely blocked so that the faithful could pray? In which case I’m happy to support your case. So let us say that both Puja’s and Namaaz are banned. However, the subsidy benefit still stays – so the problem of asymmetric benefits remain :)

    Second, I do not think you have understood HHBB’s comment on taxes. His argument is that the cost of a puja (or Nammaz) in violating traffic is imposed on every one, while the benefit of a haj subsidy (in an avowedly secular nation) curiously accrues to the faithful only. Just curious, shouldn’t catholics be provided a similar benefit to visit the Vatican for instance?

  193. @ wtf and Khujur

    You have insulted me and you have insulted the Shaolin Temple.(in my best Bruce Lee voice)
    Master Wanderer was Orthodox Preying Mantis while Master Parivar is all Drunken Monkey Style. I am neither an Anand (though I have used that name when the Marine Drive beat cop “picked” us up for innocent(I swear!) adolescent escapades) nor do I wander (except accidentally into the bar). Anyway, anything that makes you happy :) … and it’s always good being mistaken for someone else, so many Amol Palekar and Jackie Chan movies like this.

    Mo’ later.

  194. Clarification:

    @yourfan2
    Dude you are really funny……
    You have made me come back for one last comment, this is a classic case of Pot calling the kettle black. If anyone will do a sociological research on the posts in this blog, he will in most likelihood analyze/conclude how a bunch individuals, who still have humanity left in them, fought off hordes of murderous and genocidal religious fanatics.
    “indomitable human spirit to live and let live “ … “rabid religious dogs “ ha ha ha you sure are funny, this just means that either you cannot understand written English or you have not read the posts.
    And as far as a$$ licking of HHBB’s success goes, he sure has achieved a quite a lot in the first 29 years of his life. But just for your information by the grace of Almighty I am a MBA from the topmost B-school in France (no need to mention what its name is) and I am just 26.

    ——————-
    OK. You should use these kind of arguments which lack rigor to get into the pants of the french chicks on INSEAD campus.

    “he will in most likelihood analyze/conclude how a bunch individuals, who still have humanity left in them, fought off hordes of murderous and genocidal religious fanatics.” Hah. Come baby kiss my ass. I don’t want to go into the details of how you are actually the vermin. In fact pseudo seculars like you are worse than rabid religious dogs.

    Regarding qualifications, I am afraid to say that you are no match for HHBB. See in todays world, MBA from a foreign B school is dime a dozen. You probably don’t know that many many commentators on this thread have grad degrees from universities abroad. Also look at the top 100 B schools. So many people graduate each year. How many big CEOs have been to B school anyway? How many make it to the real top? How many start their own business? Most just play around with Excel sheets. So beat your chest a bit later when you differentiate yourself from the standard big B school graduate. And somehow your deficiency in comprehension, your lack of articulation of ideas, your lack of crispness in writing, amongst a variety of other things tells me that you will not be no for HHBB in a responsible position. I am willing to bet that you cannot weather a storm like the current Wall Street CFO’s are doing now with the credit crisis. And your cocksure attitude probably means that you are a bit like Bear Sterns, investing almost all its assets in risky mortgages. The company which hires you will probably suffer the same Domino effect which resulted in Japan’s lost decade. HHBB is Goldman Sachs. Have you ever seen the Goldman Sachs building? Next time you visit NYC, just see it. Its just no. 85. No name mentioned. They don’t need to advertise. Like HHBB. But you have to. And you just could not resist from doing that, could you? :) Besides, you simply haven’t faced the hardship and opprobrium that HHBB had faced while growing up. What do you know of blind wrath towards kafirs? He was seriously contemplating leaving for Australia a few months back. Did you know that? Anyway, go back to your books now. And good luck with your placements.

  195. GB,
    Another addition to your fan club.

    @ Rishi, Sunil, HHBB, Hujur etc.

    Most of what u have stated here is what I used to say to my “secular” friends. Of course, they ‘d shut their senses of observation and use the open one to vomit what had been stuffed into their brains through our educational system that pronounces Invaders as great. hrd someone qouting “History is written by winners”. Our history books have been ruled by these foreign invaders (though written a bunch of losers) and thats what is reflecting as the general mindset.
    India, I never felt was a secular nation w.r.t to the constitution. kashmir –article 370 etc are just instances of it. the problem is with the foundation itself. The basis of which was appeasement. Thats the typical Indian(Hindu???) attitude — making the guests feel comfortable by “sacrificing” our comfort and of those who are ours. There lies the problem. Those who are worshipped for their “secular” credentials were never secular at the core. if they had considered everyone as “apne” this special-treatment-for-the-guests mindset wouldn’t have creeped in.

    Also, disagree with your(some of yours) logic of “bringing them back”. Conflicts with the idea of Hinduism and relegion that I’ve. From those Swami Vievekand’s words–religions are rivers, God is the sea…..(Don’t remember the exact wordings). But your solution of bringing them back seems to ME like suggesting “merging(not linking) all these rivers, as a solution to the floods in some of them”. That would make the Sea look smaller. Dams would be a better option. Wat say???

    (might Sound like lines from a PREACHY movie. but not intended tat way)

  196. @ Rishi Khujur
    //Ask a Muslim in Pakistan’s Punjab and they will tell you how Maharaja Ranjit Singh kicked their a$$.//

    My isn’t that cool ;spelling ass with dollar signs.

    Sigh! Really my man, describing the history of Ranjit Singh as “A$$”kicking kinda shows where you stand. Sorry if I sound rude but maybe I’m wasting my time answering you.

    //Grow up…it isnt fashionable to be pseudo-secular anymore.//

    But it sure is fashionable to spell A$$ like this :D

  197. @Anonymous

    //Just curious, would you also advocate banning Friday Namaz on streets? I know areas around Bandra completely blocked so that the faithful could pray? In which case I’m happy to support your case. So let us say that both Puja’s and Namaaz are banned.//

    Ina previous post I said,”Also, for arguments sake, I DON’T care why the roads are blocked. If you want to pray to yr 12 armed goddes or offer namaaz to yr genocidal god,do it but DO IT WITHOUT BOTHERING ME!”

    I hope that answers yr doubts.

    // However, the subsidy benefit still stays – so the problem of asymmetric benefits remain //

    So have you done some kind of per-capita subsidy benefit study for india’s religions? This is getting way to peurile.

    Anyways, for argumenst sake, HUFs get tax benefits and TN under Jayalalitha had a mid-day temple meal scheme(I’ve even provided a link for it in a post of mine). So there the balance has tipped to the other side. Sheesh!

    //Second, I do not think you have understood HHBB’s comment on taxes. His argument is that the cost of a puja (or Nammaz) in violating traffic is imposed on every one, while the benefit of a haj subsidy (in an avowedly secular nation) curiously accrues to the faithful only. //

    So? The benefit for the Pujas also accrue only to Hindus! How difficult is this for you to comprehend?

    The cost is paid by everyone(blocked road, extra taxes). The befits accrue only to one religion(puja pandals stradling roads, subsidised flights).

    //Just curious, shouldn’t catholics be provided a similar benefit to visit the Vatican for instance?//

    If you follow some kind of a please all policy , yes. After all if Hindus can get free mid-day meals in temples and agitate for land from the state govts for shrine boards and muslims can get subsidised flights to Arabia then why shouldn’t the Christians cash in on the party?

    Ideally, of course there should be none of this, but then ideally i should have been going out with heidu klum.

  198. @Hara hara bom bom

    I missed out on this post. My sincere apolagies.

    //Even those who are climbed out of total apathy bear certain unique traits that recur in Hinduism far more than other communities. The gamut includes :
    (1) Extreme benevolence to the other, at the cost of depriving ones own.
    (2) A remarkable readiness to forgive insults and attacks
    (3) A breathtaking naiivete in trusting people who have time and again expressed their malice and ill will.
    (4) Refusal to accept inconvenient facts, and a firm insistence that things will work out.
    (5) Complete ignorance of how others truly view and treat them.
    (6) Stark and rank cowardice.//

    See, this is where there is this huge gulf in the ways we think. Unlike you I dont steroetype people based on religion and quite frankly think its stupid to do so, absurd even.

    So while you may think that Hindus are prone to “Stark and rank cowardice” and suffer from “Complete ignorance ” or think that Muslims are some sort of a race cleverer or maybe more cunning than the hindus, I feel its all balderash.

    Its sad that in this day and age you have people still assigning qualitites like cowardice based on the religion they follow. Sad, very sad.

    //Let’s face it. If the 85% you cite were truly Hindu,…//

    Ah! The truly “__________”.The Taliban enedavoured for long to make the Afghanis “truly” Muslim and yr taking up the job in India, albiet inserting Hindu into the blank.

    Carry on the good work. Hope people endeavour to be truly hindu as YOU want them to be.

  199. @ BalalSangh Parivar:

    to quote kung fu panda:

    there will be no charge for the awesomeness …or.. the attractiveness.

  200. Another great post, GB, the extent to which ‘secularists’ can go to, to justify their warped sense of secularism.

    @Rishi/Hujur/HHBB/Sunil et al:
    Wonderful work guys, have been reading all your posts in this thread and a couple of other threads (am new to GB blog), carry on posting logial/factual arguements, irrespective of the cheap personal attacks — got to learn a lot from our debates with A Small Clarification/Hades (who, unlike a lot of other ‘secular-wallahs’ at least try to uselogical counter arguements to present their opinions).

    @Hades:
    Agree with you that a State should be atheist, not secular, whatever ‘secular’ means (correct me please if that’s NOT what you were implying).
    Also, sorry for (maybe) diverting from the topic, but I fail to see how sepoys choosing an ailing Zafar as their mascot proves that all was well with Hindu-Muslim relations? Was he accepted as the leader for the whole of India? I’m not sure if all the participants in the war (the Marathas, Kumwar Singh et al) accepted his ‘sovereignity’. Also, as I understand, there were a number of cases where the revolt took form of a ‘jehad’ (against both Hindus & Christians).
    In fact, the wiki link even says that the very act of proclaiming him King might have kept Sikhs away. This link seems to be on similar lines (will try to post more links when I have some time).

    http://www.sikhspectrum.com/082004/1857_mutiny_g_s.htm

  201. A typo:

    “got to learn a lot from our debates”

    I, of course, meant ‘your’ debates (lest I be accused of masquerading as someone else). :-)

  202. @wtf
    A-HA! Another kindred soul into Kung-fu? May you have many many sons as successful as the ultramega successful Gurus here!

    PS: Have you seen this clip?: Kung-Fu versus Yoga!

    @Khujur:
    So they give SLRs, *assault rifles* that were based on the mainstay of NATO armies for so long, with full-metal jacket rounds, to *state* police eh? Guj police that very advanced only? What next, there is a Pandu Death Star aimed at Signal Falia? :P
    Not even the SAP types are given such hardware, forget your ordinary Pandu pulled out from beat duty to rifle deputations once in a while. Even the officers of those reserve forces are just transitioning from six shooters to pistols.

    And nice to know you can count!
    The *deployment* commenced only on March 3, three days after the “call”…. singularly because of stalling by the state govt (in the 1969 and 1992 and 1995 riots the response and requests to center were *prompt*) and due to a sympathetic govt at the center which claimed was more “immersed” in Parakramams as they said when the court asked them why the teeth to tail thing took too long and turned out too messy. For once the Pakistanis came handy, eh?). This is also where the candid cam of those Babu Bajrangi a-hole comes in “We had three days to do it”. One also wonders why the forces had to wait for a CO for another two days….. but what else to expect when a Lodapurush… oops a Lohapurush is the HM! And then, who cares if a few more Katwas got it, eh? This is only the phirst shetp to purity control and all…. I believe with all YemBeeYays here you can arrive at Optimum LPP to “displace” and “liquidate” undesirable “subprime assets” and all.

    And where did you get the idea that you need state govt to authorize firing during flag march/central paramilitary ops? Harivard University?
    -Peace!

  203. @ BalalSanghPariwar
    Your response is a LIE (or based on incorrect information).
    Though it is quite funny.

    1. Checkup with Gujarat police.
    SLR was the mainistay of the NATO armies in the 60s and 70s. Indian army used it the 71 war too and continued to use it until nineties. Has been supplied to state polices in phased manner since the nineties.

    2. Here is a official GOI report supplied to its embassies around the world as explanation of the deployment during Gujarat riots.

    “As reports of violence started coming in by noon of 28th February 2002, the state government after assessing the situation decided to call in the army and initiated a verbal request to army authorities at 14:30 hours and the decision was announced by the Hon. CM in the press conference of 1630 hours on the same day. On the request of the state government, the Central government issued orders for shifting necessary army personnel to Ahmedabad on the same day’s evening. Thus, the state government made quick assessment of the situation and the Army was called in from distant places in less than 16 hours.

    After the arrival of army at Ahmedabad, after discussions with the state government and the GOC of the army, it was decided to deploy the first arrival of army in the disturbed areas of Ahmedabad city. The district administration arranged for Executive Magistrates to accompany the Army and the deployment began from 1100 hours on 1st March to disturbed areas of Vejapur, Meghaninagar, Asarva, Bapunagar, Shaherkotda, Khadia, Dariapur, Rakhial, Paldi, etc.

    The next brigade of the Army was also deployed in Rajkot and Vadodra on 01.03.2002 itself. Three columns allotted to Godhra reached in Godhra, Lunavada and Halol on the early morning of 02.03.2002.

    Thereafter the Army has been shifted in Surat and Bhavnagar as and when the situation warranted such a shift”.

    Dear BalalSanghParivar
    I like your funny obfuscations, but no amount of comedy can disguise reality.

  204. @ Khujur

    >>Has been supplied to state polices in phased manner since the nineties.

    Heigh Ho! Key word is phased manner. Why don’t ya google up and see what type of Pandus carry them around (let alone use an assault rifle to fire at mobs). There’s a good reason why they use those old 303s for police firing you know…
    BTW, the only pandu cops you see carrying SLRs are those into perimeter security, NOT mob dispersal or the pot bellied ones at the local thana. Fcuk… look at the mess they are doing with the 303s!

    >> “Report”.

    You need to do better than pull out a solitary report from the Indian embassy site (and that too a non updated, vintage 2002 report which has a big Caveat Empor disclaimer on top) to convince ol’ Master Betty here. The fact that it was prepared by some lackey in the MEA office, i.e. the complicit govt at the center is also pertinent, right? If Bhaiyya-advani etc can question Alu-Lalu’s UCB Railway Commission on Godhra burnings, what makes some nameless secty in MEA any more lily-white virgin?. President Narayan was publicly p1ssed (remember all that letter stuff…. too bad he went to the void before the probe could get him into the stand), Justice Nanavati questioned the state’s tardiness and probably Justice Shah lay down and died of shame reading all those field reports.
    The only sources which speak of 24-hr response (which is an *excellent* deployment speed given the conditions and threat) are BJP and some chamcha sites. It’s also true that Jholawaalah sites give the 5-day and 3-day figure. I personally believe the latter ‘coz it was corroborated by visual media and talking heads on TV…. but again we are talking Barkha Dutt and co here. Not exactly paragons of truth…. about as bad as the Bajrangi/VHP crank they rail against.

    Seriously Master Ku-Joor, is there ANY publicly accessible army report/independent commission report which speaks of 24-48 hr *deployment*. And BTW, deployment mean the full monty:-, flag march, firings, containment ops and eviction et all. Not just alighting down the train a Palanpur central. If you could show me such document I have no probs in accepting that Modi did a great job with the riot handling. Yeah, I know this is difficult to find (if it exists at all) but then, you guys are the all-knowing masters here, eh?

    Buddha be praised. (one handed bow)

  205. Domo soddin’ Arrigato Khujur-San,

    I *accept* that it’s from an MEA site, though old… though not a formal report/white-paper… and not updated anywhere. What I am *requesting* is some sort of a follow-up or a corroboration that’s not from the stables of Gujarat Govt or some lackey like India Foundation or some other biased source.
    Hey, if you give me that I (and some others here) could take Modi outta their shit-list…. that’s a victory for the Order of the Knicker, eh?
    Please forgive moi huffin and puffin’ onlee…. me onlee a baccha gawking at the Gyaana Saagaras here.

    And thanks a lot for the illuminating response on SLRs boss… but my question stands; does the Gujarat police force give out assault rifles for riot control (i.e. to normal cops or even the SAP for this purpose) or normal pandus in beat patrols or other police ops?

    XOXO and See Ya’

  206. yes boss…a large number of the Gujarat police that was deployed for riot control was equipped with SLRs.

    And SLRs ARE used as standard issue rifles not only by Gujarat but many many other state police forces.

    Happy!!!

  207. Hades says:
    “So? The benefit for the Pujas also accrue only to Hindus! How difficult is this for you to comprehend?”

    I’m afraid I find it extremely difficult to comprehend. None of the faithful are prevented from attending the pujas and having bhog if need be, or visiting the puja grounds (and incidentally they do). However, I as a hindu cannot get to visit Mecca at all even at subsidised prices. So as I said – the question of asymmetric benefits remain.

  208. @ Khujur

    Then I have to take yer word for it….. which I for some reason don’t hold in vewy high regard. Ya know, every pandu force is *equipped* with mortars and AK-47s too…. usually they stay within the training ground and at worst will blow up the kitchen during exercises…. but they don’t go around using it for riot dispersal and normal ops with it.

    And am I happy? Yes… I just downloaded “Fun-Can be dangerous sometimes”. I am eagerly waiting to review the sand dunes featured there.

  209. BSP:
    dont take my word for it mate. Go do your own research.
    But the reason it is well known that SLRs were used in Gujarat, is because many of them malfunctioned and that became a issue.

    You babble mercilessly when I give you proof, you babble mercilessly when I dont.

    Continue.

  210. Few things i’ve learned from this discussion

    1. Its really hard (impossible) to change what someone believes.

    2. Once you believe in something… you seen only those facts which lead to what you believe. So facts and rationalism remain of no use.

    3. Now i really understand the meaning of this song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEgUUTkqRRQ

  211. @ Khujur

    Heh Heh “babble mercilessly when I give proof” eh?
    Keyword if “proof”. I believe your definition of “proof” wont gel with Wade in Law or the Law of the Jungle or even The Law of Shankar, Airport Coolie. Anyway, whatever floats your Katta Panchayat boat!

    And “malphunctioning of SLRs” became an issue?
    Oh really? That is seeeeerious indeed! :D Where did you pull out this info from? Being the Gyaanguru you are you felt it in the Force, but for poor me who has to rely on Bhola the Servant boy to bring me the morning daily with my cuppa please enlighten.

  212. @Hades- I see where you are coming from. But your wish is simply utopian. Amongst the long list of crimes that the Govt. of India has committed, Haj subsidies would be somewhere in the Top 5. It is absolutely one of the most repulsive government policy ever implemented anywhere anytime. And you know as well as I do that with the current coalition structure of Indian politics, these things like SC/ST and reservations will remain. Now the thing about roads is very interesting. I support your claims that Puja should not be on streets. But if traffic flow is smoothened by blocking certain roads, you cannot question that as you do not own the roads. Now you may say that you have the right to access any road at any time. But you know that roads are sometimes closed for repair as well as for security reasons (say visit of a foreign dignitary). So say if the traffic system is restructured and certain roads near Mohd Ali Park are made one way during Pujas, it is due to logistical reasons.

    Consider this with Haj subsidies. You pay for that. Here you may choose to not face inconvenience by staying away from roads where there are Pujo Pandals. But you have to give a portion of your income to Haj. That is extortion. If you deduct the Haj portion from your income tax by detailed calculation, the IT dept will be up ur ass. Consider Muslim prayers on streets. I mean the so called “right wing Hindu” side of commentators on this blog, captained by Rishi, may invite the “Pesudo Secular 11 of RTDM”, for a cricket match right on that spot! Just like you feel about Pujo, they may feel that they have the right to play cricket there if some people have the right to go on all fours facing West! But if you ban street blocking on Pujos first, then that would be minority ass licking as Muslims will still be praying on streets and you will still be forced to endure that loudspeaker torture. So first ban Haj subsidies. Then the imbalance of religious favor would be slightly evened out. But for now, it is heavily skewed towards Muslims. Simultaneous withdrawal of all these favors, as you seem to be suggesting, is very appealing, but not real world.

  213. @Rishi, Sunil & Co

    “You babble mercilessly when I give you proof, you babble mercilessly when I dont. ”

    Isn’t that what you guys have been doing even after “A small clarification” gave you the translation on the Q. But no, you don’t believe his source. (And similarly BSP doesnt believe yours :) )

    I’m not blaming you. Thats how human psyche is. Youre not going to change my beliefs based on your version of the truth. I cant change yours.

    But keep trying, you might end up with followers like yourfan2… looking for confirmation to their beliefs.

  214. Kranthi:
    Did u read his translation?
    I accept his explanation, which itself shows what I have been pointing out all this while. Please go and read his translation.

    This is not about “believing”. It is much more than that…its about humanity’s future buddy.

    But you reach your own conclusion eventually.

  215. @ Kranthi

    BTW, even by “small clarification’s” translation, you will still deserve death or forced conversion to Islam, for being a Kafir Hindu.

    Wait your turn.

  216. i have been an atheist for many years and do not believe in any religion. my parents and ancestors are/were hindu, but i do not care for hinduism. (any more than i care for any other religion)
    i mention this only to make it clear where i’m coming from.
    in spite of my absolute conviction that a lack of religion is the best way forward for humanity, i still feel, in time honoured orwellian tradition, that some religions [edited] are more loathsome than others.

    [This part has been edited by me GB as I do not want the discussion to again veer into the domain of religion and theology since we have done this many times before. Politics is fine for now. Apologies.]

  217. Kranthi above to RK (not Rajesh Khanna):

    Isn’t that what you guys have been doing even after “A small clarification” gave you the translation on the Q. But no, you don’t believe his source. (And similarly BSP doesnt believe yours :) )

    I’m not blaming you. Thats how human psyche is. Youre not going to change my beliefs based on your version of the truth. I cant change yours.

    —-

    So you steadfastly hold on to your opinions even in the face of overwhelming fact. This is not a clash of opinions. We have thousands of years of facts. Islam is a unique religion [edited]. Your “opinion” is to dilute these acts and give out that very convenient explanation “Life isnt always fair. All religions are bad.”

    I know you are not caring about what Rishi is saying. But you should at least give it a thought. This man has been shouting from the rooftops from the last 2 years the Q is something very malicious towards non-muslims. Why dont you see for yourself. Why isnt he saying that the book of the Jains is as malicious? He is giving solid facts. Why don’t you argue trying to counter what he is saying? But sometimes “opinion” can be so strong that they become a dogma. Dogmatic people refute logic and facts. That, unfortunately, is their psyche.

  218. Heh Heh…
    Master Parivar has heard of this thing called “Cognitive Dissonance” that affects 99.9999% of humanity. It’s something like when you are eight years old and your precocious pal pulls you close and whisper in your ears the secret of the birds and the bees. You then scream “NOOOOOOOOO! GIRLS ARE BAAAAAAD! AND MY PARENTS WON’T DO SOMETHING YUCKY LIKE THIS… THEY ARE NICE PEOPLE!”.

    PS: True incident onlee…. I was the precocious pal, the korruptor, and the protagonist is now a mean fighter pilot.

  219. Hello Kranthi,

    You said –

    “Isn’t that what you guys have been doing even after “A small clarification” gave you the translation on the Q. But no, you don’t believe his source”

    This is what ” A Small Clarification” said –

    “Yes, I do agree that Islam is a monotheistic religion and severe punishment has been promised for wrong-doers and those who worship anyone but the Almighty”

    If you still suffer from “cognitive dissonance” as BSB puts itplease contact me on the_ironjaw@yahoo.com, and I will provide you with more verses that conclusively prove what we have been saying about the Holy Book. And yes you can use Pickthall to cross verify them inspite of his very very chequered background.

    Regards,

    Sunil.

  220. @Sunil and Kranthi

    Why, why do I do this again and aging, why… why can’t I restrain myself from posting on this blog. Why why do people, even after repeated clarifications, quote (mis) me and force me to respond, I perfectly understand that this post of mine will make no difference but I think that I will reply (hopefully for the last time)
    Sunil you quoted me as “Yes, I do agree that Islam is a monotheistic religion and severe punishment has been promised for wrong-doers and those who worship anyone but the Almighty”
    But you forgot to mention that, as I have already explained, this “severe punishment” is only after ones death and every wrong-doer, Muslim or non-Muslim, will be punished according to his/her deeds. Please note (at least this time) that by saying “after one dies” in no way I am implying that Islam commands or encourages that wrong-doers (again Muslim or non-Muslim) be discriminated/exploited or persecuted.
    Correct me if I am wrong (which I am quite certain I am not), doesn’t other religions (Hinduism included) promise severe punishment to people not conforming to their respective believes. I don’t think that this trait is unique to Islam.
    Regarding, the translation of Quran I am referring to, I am actually referring to more than one translations, including those that are direct translation of Arabic to English (by Arabic scholars) and as you have already mentioned you are referring to Urdu to English translation of Quran (by some Indian scholar). So please don’t question the context(s) of verses that I have provided. You are free to ignore them though (that’s what you will do anyway).
    P.S: I am a little drowsy, so please ignore any slips in my language.

  221. @ Small clarifications
    “Correct me if I am wrong (which I am quite certain I am not), doesn’t other religions (Hinduism included) promise severe punishment to people not conforming to their respective believes”.

    Response:
    The answer is NO. Nobody springs up from amongst the bushes to wring your neck for not bowing to Shiva.

    Try doing that in a Islamic country. Here we go again…

  222. @ Kranthi

    Try going to a Islamic country and opening a copy Upnishad and reciting a few shlokas. You will get the answer to what I have been talking about for the last one and half years.

    Dont forget to come back and join the effort. I would need your help.

  223. @Rishi

    Just a small query – let’s say I lie, cheat, steal and do all those things that are prohibited in Hinduism. What will happen to me when I die??

    Yup, irritation resulting from repeating same comments is likewise.

  224. @ ASC

    Do look up “karma” in wikipedia. You will have your answer. Dont want to fill this space with more of scriptural stuff.

    Question to u-

    What happens to us polymorthist Kafirs like us Hindus (Buddhists, Sikhs included) and your forefathers, etc (those who do not believe in the Prophet franchise and allah mian)?

    Use your translation and answer.

  225. Hello ASC,

    Letus suppose that I dont lie, cheat,steal but have pork and Drink Alcohol. I dont believe in the almighty and try to convert Muslims to Atheism using my wealth (not that I have any). Three questions now –

    1. What behaviour has been proscribed in the Quran for Muslims vis a vis People like me.
    2. What will happen to me if I do this in an Islamic Country.
    3. What does the Quran say will happen to me after I die.

    Re: Translations used.

    Your translation source is Pickthall ONLY. His background and disposition make him an unreliable translator of the Quran (In Finance this is referred to as “Incentive Caused Bias”) .

    My translation is from an Islamic Site.

    Also Please feel free to use Pickthall to read Sura anfal ayat 64 onwards to ayat 70. I dont want to litter Arnab da’s blog all over again.

    Regards,

    Sunil.

  226. Few observations from the article:

    – Greatbong’s conversion to a right wing nutjob is eminent. Look at the gross generalizations (“Hindus and INdians hated”), at the “pity me, I am Hindu” sentiment and using the Haj rationale, this piece could be straight out of an RSS mouthpiece

    – I found a desi “khejur” today. It’s called Rishi Khujur. Apparently it resides in Wahsington DC and the similarities with the real “khejur” is hard to miss – the incoherent argument, the rants, the general dumbness – I wonder if it is he – the real one, the great Dubya himself reading this blog

    – Hindus will always be cry babies. Inspite of controlling all the wealth, the power, the politics in the country the “pity-me” sentiment would never go away. What losers.

    – Seriously, what’s so special about religion ?

  227. @Dipesh
    Dubya conveyed this-
    ” George Dubya Bush is honorified that Dipesh did comparification between Rishi Khujur and him. Henceforth, all of Rishi Khujur’s trips to India and surrounding countries will be in a charter-ized plane and with full diplomatic-ificationized immunity”.

  228. @Rishi

    I understand, by referring me to a site and not posting the answer regarding “Karma” you are trying to avoid a difficult question.

    I did ask you a trick question, didn’t I?? Well I don’t claim to be a scholar in Hinduism but I do have a idea of what Karma means. Karma literally translates to ones deeds and law of Karma is like a “cause and effect thing “ i.e. through the law of karma, the effects of all deeds actively create past, present, and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one’s own life, and the pain and joy it brings to him/her and others. This cause-and-effect thing will continue even after my death, or in other words my life after death will depend on the deeds that I have committed in my previous life (s).

    Ooo doesn’t this sound familiar?? Haven’t all my elders, uncles, aunts, brothers and sisters been telling my since I was five??

    Doesn’t this mean that when I die, if I had done good things in my lifetime, good things will happen to me and if I had done bad things, bad thing will happen to me?? This seriously seems a lot like – when I die I will be rewarded/punished according to the deeds that I have committed in my life.

    Which is exactly what is postulated by most of the religions (including Islam***).

    I completely understand your reluctance in posting the answer to my question. It would have surely put you in a very tight spot.

    @Sunil

    I am done with re-iterating my comments, I have already answered all the questions you have asked in you most recent post.
    Let me know if you have anything new to ask.

    *** There is no concept of reincarnation in Islam. According to Islam punishments/ rewards based on ones deeds will be awarded to him/her in his/her own lifetime or in the afterlife.

  229. @ A small clari..

    No buddy …no trick question….ws just respecting Arnab’s request of not posting scriptural goop.

    You got the law of Karma COMPLETELY WRONG.
    But that is expected out of you. Afterall it is not your fault that you have completely lost touch with your forefathers philosophy. Afterall, like me and a big chunk of humanity, you are just another victim of the Koran.

    And sadly, with the concept of Jannat, with its 72 virgins and 28 young boys…you wouldnt have the ability to think beyond that… :) now that you are part of the “Mohammed franchise”.

    You see, in Hindu Dharma, depending on the what darshana you delve into, the SOUL(Aatman) and the ABSOLUTE (Brahmann…not to be confused with Brahmin or Brahma), very much follow the law of conservation of energy. Now the Darshanas vary, on the nature of the relationship between the Aatman and the Brahmann and how the energies interact with each other at the Universal scale. But for all practical purposes, the Karma of a Aatman in its physical manifestation reflects in its future enunciation, and the reflections repeat themselves as reincarnations, until the Aatman becomes one with the Brahmann.

    You see, Karma, Bhakti, or Gnana are like the properties of that Aatman.

    The disinction clearly between how you think and how I may think, my good friend, is in the exclusivist an absolutist nature of how one looks at the individual.

    While the Koran’s approach to creation in general and humanity in particular is that of a carrot and stick approach (and apparently the stick turns out to be QUITE BIGG), that of the Hindu darshanas are of self awareness and emancipation.

    [edited]

  230. @Rishi

    That’s all OK, but can you please answer in one line:

    What will happen to a person (his soul or aatma actually) , who has done everything prohibited in Hinduism in his lifetime, when he dies??

    No need to post any scriptures, just give a one line answer with just one reference.

    P.S: It might be a little tedious, but I believe you can do this much for a relative (because of our common ancestors).

  231. @ small clari..
    bola to na boss..fir se parho jara previous answer.

    The question of “prohibition” is a subjective term…samjhe “bhaiyya”.. (since your forefathers were Hindu ..to hum brothers hooye na).

    yehi to samjhaye hum tumko.

    Yeh carrot an stick nehi hai…Jara detail mein parh lo bhai

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_philosophy#Orthodox_Schools_.28Astika.29

  232. Hello ASC,

    I dont see where you have answered the three questions I asked you. Did I put you in a “tight spot”, as you are fond of saying, my friend?

    Regards,

    Sunil.

    P.S: Also you have not answered Rishi’s question on what happens to people who dont believe in the “Allah Franchise”.

  233. Hi Rishi,

    I read your posts and then went back to read some of the previous ones and I say I am impressed. You are a revolution. And hey; when I go to a nightclub from now on, I will thank you silently as the reason I can wear a mini instead of a burkha is you. And hey. I would be willing to have a threesome with you any freaking day!

  234. Dude a small clarification,
    Although your questions were for Rishi, who has aptly answered your query (although not the way you wanted it to be answered), let me put it for you in a slightly different way.

    Hinduism is not Islam or Christanity (or Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy) where you can expect a one liner for questions like:

    “What will happen to a person (his soul or aatma actually) , who has done everything prohibited in Hinduism in his lifetime, when he dies??”

    To begin with what do you mean with ‘prohibited in Hinduism’. We are not talking Sharia law here. What is ‘prohibited’ depends on the path you choose in your own spiritual journey towards enlightment (moksha).

    And your path need not (and will not) be the same path as mine. For you it might be Krishna Bhakti or selfless devotions to Krishna and to me it might be Raja Yoga or meditation.

    And remember no path is right or wrong. Hinduism is a constantly evolving philosophy and over the ages people from Vashishtha (~4000 BCE) to Ramakrishna (1900 CE) have contributed in this process. It is not based on the teachings of a single individual who claims to be a messiah and who might as well be just a naughty boy.

    Hinduism is a tradition that celebrates Vedanta as the pinnacle of human knowledge but at the same time does not disown Carvaka which adheres to materialism and atheism.

    Get out of the one track mind of finding a sura for every questions you have, be it how you should dress to how you should die.

    Understanding the nature of reality and the universe demands more than that.

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu_philosophies

  235. Well, everything chalega actually in Hinduism. Everyone goes to their heaven, so as to speak…. if you were in the naughty list you’ll prolly have to spend some time in hell embracing molten statues or swimming in river of blood but ultimately everyone’s saved.

    For egjamble, right now Hemu, Akbar and Bairam Khan are on to their fourth round of Soma (aged in oak, 16 yr vintage) in Vaikuntam:

    Akbar: Yo shizzle mah nizzle! My homie Hem’…. did it hurt when I struck your neck with that little sword?
    Hemu: Naaah…. not as bad as it did when this bald b1tch here cut it off with his godawful blunt one.
    Bairam: It’s not as you wold miss it anyway….. you never had a head for leading crack-smokin’ Afghans and chashmish Bongs anyway! NJAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHA…
    Hemu: No “head for leading”…HEH..HEH HEH…..HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHA!
    Akbar: HURH HUH HUH…. (Burp!) But Khan-baba I heard YOU had to search for yours when the kinkaras took it for football practice and threw it into the sea of fire ‘coz it deflated too soon. MUHUAHAHAHAHAHAHAH….
    (Disembodied Voice of Lord Vishnu booms sonorously): ONE MORE LAME JOKE AND I’LL SEND RANGARAJA NAMBI YOUR WAY! SERIOUSLY!!
    (Awkard silence for a few seconds)
    Bairam: Anyway…. talking of seas, what’s with this Sea of Milk here …Palazhi-Vazhi somthing? The last time I was frolickin’ in a sea down below in Gujarat some little Afghan kid stuck a spear into my side.
    Hemu: Not into sun and surf, eh? If you like the hills you can always take a visit visa/Ash Card to Kailas next door.
    Bairam: BULANDAAAAAAR!
    Akbar: Oh for Allah’s sake, not a line from that crappy movie again!

  236. @ Sarita

    Risi is indeed the revolution….what the heck there should be a full on orgy to entertain him….

    GO RISSHHHIIIII…..

  237. Brahma and Vishnu told them to go and live in the desert. The last of the four eras was kaliyuga and in kaliyuga, evil would reign supreme. When kaliyuga arrived, they were to come back and begin their teaching afresh.

  238. rishi khujur said :

    “You see, in Hindu Dharma, depending on the what darshana you delve into, the SOUL(Aatman) and the ABSOLUTE (Brahmann…not to be confused with Brahmin or Brahma), very much follow the LAW OF CONSERVATION OF ENERGY”

    I’m sorry, man but I’m ROTFL!!!

    Oh man, I love these “scientific” explanations for religion! Law of conservation of energy, indeed! Ummm, did you take into account Mass–energy equivalence or are souls exempt from from it ?:D :D :P

    If any body else finds this funny check out zakir naik on Q TV(I think its Q tv). He’s even better than Rishi. The chap blabbered on for an hour on how the Quran mentions that the earth is an oblate spheriod(its not, although its close to being one)! This when I’m sure his audience in that auditorium didn’t know what a spheroid is in the first place!

  239. PS: BOTH Samkhya and Vaiseshika are pre-Vedanta Darshanas.

    @ Hujur
    The propagator of Sankya philosophy, Rishi Kapila had his Ashram at Gangasagar in Bengal, where the recent attack on Hindu pilgrims happened last month by Islamic infiltrators from Bangladesh.

  240. yourfan2
    //I see where you are coming from. But your wish is simply utopian.//

    I know, hence the heidi klum comment. Sarcasm is dead!

    // Amongst the long list of crimes that the Govt. of India has committed, Haj subsidies would be somewhere in the Top 5. It is absolutely one of the most repulsive government policy ever implemented anywhere anytime.//

    Ha ha, you think deducting a few crores to fly people to Arabia is the “the most repulsive government policy ever implemented anywhere anytime”! Well then your either naive or biased or both.

    //And you know as well as I do that with the current coalition structure of Indian politics, these things like SC/ST and reservations will remain.//

    Now the theres an interesting point. Did you know that if a SC converts to Christianity, he loses all reservation benefits?

    So, basically the Govt thinks that Christianity is some sort of a wonder religion which can in one stroke relieve that person of generations of prejudice? Hence no more help required.

    Or is is just a measure by a “secular” govt to stop conversion to another religion?

    //Consider this with Haj subsidies. You pay for that. Here you may choose to not face inconvenience by staying away from roads where there are Pujo Pandals. But you have to give a portion of your income to Haj. That is extortion. If you deduct the Haj portion from your income tax by detailed calculation, the IT dept will be up ur ass.//

    Ha ha! Lets twist this peurile argument on its head shall we. Lets say you have relative whos fallen ill on nobomi. And becuase of roads being blocked he dies! Now what would you prefer?

    Bth are extortion. Also Blocking the roads for a foreign dignitary are a totally different matter. Its a matter of the state not some mumbo-jumbo.

  241. COMMENTS BY HADES
    ===================

    HHBB said //Which country in the world tolerates people who have brutalised them for over 1,300 years with no recrimination or retaliation? //

    HADES replied “Really to go into the history of india since the 12th century might be a bit tedious but then maybe its necessary for misguided soul”.

    Point 1 : Do you know how to count? 2000 AD less 1300 years = 700 AD; not 1100 AD. 700 is a rough date from when Im’s relentless onslaught on India began in earnest. If we skip to your date of the 12th century, we will miss witnessing the gory procession of massacres and tyranny.

    Just to cite 2 incidents, the period you so cavalierly ignore saw the horror of Muhammad Bin Qasim’s wipeout of Debal, and Mahmud of Ghazni’s massacre of 50,000 defenceless citizens in one city alone (Somnath).

    The irony is, the legacy of blood left by Im in India is so depthless, that even your omission of 400 YEARS (half a millennia) of cruelty does not fundamentally alter the picture.

    Point 2 : I have always maintained, even in comments on this site, that Ms are to be judged not on the misdeeds of forefathers, but on their present intentions and actions. At no level do I see any urge of solidarity, or promotion of nation building on their part. At best I see stark apathy to India, not even a trace of gratitude for wresting a nation, massacring Hs & Ss from there, and then obstinately refusing to leave as any decent human being would. At worst I see seething discontent, dangerous indoctrination in the sprawling madrasahs, and a contrived population explosion.

    That is the cause of my concern. Not the past. The present. And especially the clearly evident future.

    And is this not the behavior of the M community in general the world over?

    HADES // “You must understand that the history of India isn’t yr avg hindi film with a hero and a villain. It’s a lot grayer than that. Let me give you some example to show you that India’s history is not a Hindu vs Muslim monologue”

    Hmmm, a bit of a patronizing assumption. And wrong. I have never, ever believed in a black and white analysis, and made that abundantly clear in my comments, which you may have read before. History is always piebald, yet even this very checkered canvas betrays a clear, unmistakable and recurring pattern. I am glad you have raised your hypotheses below, let us weigh them with facts:

    HADES’ HYPOTHESIS 1 #”Tipu Sultan had alliances with the Marathas, against the English, after he became king”.

    How does this alter his fundamentally anti-H stance? Stalin was first a beloved ally of Hitler. Later, he did a complete U-turn and joined forces with USA and Britain to annihilate Hitler. Can we say Communism & Fascism were not opposed as once they had a sweet dalliance?

    Tipu made begrudging and condescending token gestures to his mass H subjects, like a few land grants and patronage of temples. This does not nullify the fact that :

    • he issued orders to demolish hundreds of H temples in Kerala

    • there were brutal and forced conversions of Hs in many areas, but especially in the province of Coorg, where many were thrown out.

    • Tipu ruthlessly revoked land grants given by previous administrators, including his father, to Brahmins who did not obsequiously follow him.

    His genocide is borne out by contemporary historians, both British & M. And how is the perverse anti-H lobby trying to distort this? By claiming that the British were lying as they hated Tipu, and that the M historians were lying because they were over-zealous.

    What a joke. Infinitely funnier than BSP’s pathetic jokes.

    HADES’ HYPOTHESIS 2 #”Aurangzeb waged a protracted war against the Muslim Deccan states bringing the Mughal Empire almost to bankruptcy”.

    Which proves the point I made earlier. Im is about blutlust. About nihilism. While there are Hs, they will create justifications for destroying Hs. Then when the last H is murdered, they will immediately invent reasons for wiping out Buddhists. Then Jews. Then Xtians. Ultimately, when the non-M world reverberates in the silence of the dead, the Ms will then start slaughtering each other.

    This is evident in 1,300 years of intra-Ismc history. Wars between Ottoman Turkey & Safavid Persia were the furtherst away conceivable from the lines of the ‘noble’ warfare (i.e war with rules) waged between the Chalukyas and Rashtrakutas. The Ottomans and Safavids converted Iraq in to a bloodzone. There were cases of entire cities being flagellated and wiped out.

    HADES’ HYPOTHESIS 3 #”Much has been made of the enmity between Muslims and Sikhs after the slaying of guru tegh bahadur for refusing to convert to Islam. Yet Ranjit, the greatest sikh king, had a foreign minister who was a Muslim named, I think, Azizuddin”

    Hmm. Yes. But this belies kh tolerance, it does not suggest M pluralism. It does not explain why Farukh Siyar ordered total annihilation of Skhs. It does not explain why Banda Bahadur’s son was murdered in front of his eyes, and then (Banda) being hacked alive slowly, piece by piece. Or why Tegh Bahadur’s follwers were sawn in half and burnt alive. Or why Guru Govind was killed. Or why Arjan was tortured to death. Or the relentless Mughal campaigns against Guru Har Govind.

    I think I read once that even the great Harun al Rashid had his Buddhist minister (minister or influential cheiftan) Barmak tortured and decapitated, with his head displayed on a bridge, just because he was a pagan growing too influential (check this fact, I may be wrong, but I think I am right).

    Ranjit Singh appointing an M minister does not alter the seething enmity between the two faiths.

    HADES’ HYPOTHESIS 4# “And this one, I think, clinches it: #You say that for 1300 years, Indian history is a long story of Muslim rulers oppressing their hindu subjects, right? Yet when the largely Hindu Sepoys , for a brief while overthrew the British in ’57, who did they turn to lead them? A senile 80 year old man, who was also the mughal king – bahadur shah zafar. Would these hindu sepoys have done that is as you say the mughals had “for over 1,300 years with no recrimination or retaliation”

    You rejoice too soon.
    • The Sepoys were not loyal soldiers of the Mughal king … for heaven’s sake, it was the Sepoys who had assisted in wiping out the last vestige of Mughal power from India (Plassey, Buxar) a few generations before.

    • After rebelling, the leaderless Sepoys needed a figurehead to grant them legitimacy, and BSZ fit the bill as the most pliable and least ambitious leader. The others (Marathas or Awadhis) would be bound to have vested interests.

    • How do you know most of the Sepoys who had requested this were H? If I remember rightly (correct me if wrong), it was the cavalry units of the Meerut regiment, who were not predominantly H, who requested BSZ to act as their leader.

    • The central leadership of the rebellion changed hands numerous times. BSZ was its nominally acclaimed head until the fall of Delhi in Sep 1857. The rebellion continued way beyond that, with leadership shifting to Hs (Tantiya Tope and Nana Sahib).

    • The rebellion could not assume a pan-Indian form precisely because of BSZ. One theory suggests that the main reason for the Sikh fiefdoms zealously supporting the British was their bitter enmity with Mms.

    Too much is made of this in Pakistani schoolbooks, which have the temerity to suggest that the Mughals ruled ‘India’ till 1857, when all real hegemony had disappeared with the demise of Aurangzeb in 1707.

    As pan-Indian leaders go, the Mughals were definitely the first power after the reign of the Guptas to acquire large portions of India, east to west, north to south. The Marathas occupied this position for a while, but all too fleetingly.

    This does not mean the Mughals were universally respected.

    HADES //“But then I don’t blame you. Actually understanding Indian History isn’t an easy task and it is all too easy to generalize, especially when you are a bigot, if you don’t mind me saying so”.

    You are being too condescending and patronizing, which I find amusing. Superciliousness can be accepted this from a VS Naipaul, or even a Nirod Choudhuri, but from the depth of your displayed knowledge here, I assure you that your pomposity is vapid.

    I can retort by saying “If I am a pro-H bigot, then by distorting history beyond belief and offering facile and banal arguments that hold no water to counter volumes of irrefutable fact, you are an anti-H bigot, and an ignorant one at that too”. But I won’t.

    HHBB said // We should have been as secular as Pakistan and Bangladesh, where a 35% pre-partition population has plummeted to 0.6% in Pak.//

    HADES replied : “So basically you are regretful of the fact that India isn’t as fundamentalist as Pakistan, right? There’s almost a note of sadness in yr writing: “they massacred their minorites so well and look at us gutless Indians. We couldn’t carry out a proper genocide also. Damn”

    That is a stark untruth. I pointed out that the extent of M love for Hs is so deep, that they have wiped out Hs from 35% to 0.6%. Nothing more. Nothing less. A historical fact.

    From that your bizarre thought-process concludes that I am sad that Hs have not massacred Ms. An audaciously false assumption. Is this the extent of your repertoire? Making things up? Pathetic.

    HHBB said //I weep that India is the only country in the world to act with such egregious cowardice and sycophancy, and that it does not act with the same degree of zeal and passion as secular nations.//

    HADES replied : “If you call not conducting genocides and mass murder campaigns “cowardice” then I feel sorry for you. Maybe after the Riots in Gujarat you were a bit prouder of India”.

    Another stark untruth; I did not even remotely say ‘not conducting’ pogroms is cowardice. Some wit bemoaned the fact that India does not act like secular nations. My reply was a tongue in cheek proof of the murerous shennanigans of ‘secular nations’, & why Hs are infinitely superior to that. You have distorted this … It seems like you are a natural distorter.

    HADES : “After all there’s no better way to show that yr not a coward than by murdering a few hundred women and children in cold blood, right?”

    Well, you should know, your M brothers employ it every day. Exactly how many people have been murdered in Iraq today? And Afghanistan? And Kashmir? What about mid-East, where Israel is returning live child-murderers, and getting 2 dead bodies in return? Pray ask your friends and inform me.

  242. BalalSangh Parivar :
    BSP “And The Wanderer person….. you mean the one who the warriors here chased off with Mosquito war planes and sophomoric “pantiewaalah” retorts?”

    Thanks BSP. I had made the observation, and even I had forgotten I had made it. Thanks for reminding me. Every time a sincere H speaking out against the ongoing genocide of innocent Hs is cried down by the secular camp as a knicker-wallah, we should retort by calling them ‘pantie-walees’.

    This adds weight to the suspicion that you are Wanderor. Who else would remember such an insignificant fact except for the receptor of the comment, who had obviously been moved by it?

    BSP “Anyway, I don’t take myself so seriously ya’ know. I am just the piano-player sideshow-freakshow in this Carnivale. On that note…. where’s Shan?”

    Very wise. None of us take you with an ounce of seriousness either.

    If you’re looking for Shan, have you checked underneath your piano?

  243. @ WTF.ittabari

    WTF “hhbb, i’m sorry my comment did not feckin help you. i would rather not be your mate for anything . it’s not you. it’s me.”

    No, no. It’s me. Not you. But if you are feeling lonely one purple summer evening, I’ll keep the cuvée de prestige (Dom Pérignon. What else?) chilled.

    WTF: “BalalSangh Parivar is very similar in writing style to the Wanderer. the prose is so GOOD”.

    Seriously. I am yet to see anyone with a poorer sense of humour than BSP. His (her?) jokes are appallingly poor, eye-wateringly tedious, and maddeningly bland. I hope you are rendering a tongue-in-cheek observation, otherwise my (acceptedly unwarranted) advise is to radically recycle your coterie of friends.

    WTF (to Rishi) “in general, there is a certain assumption that you make, i.e. Im is and has been good for nothing. so mark my words: this is your hubris and why your cause and efforts are doomed to be a failure”.

    I am interjecting in to a discussion you were having with Rishi, so forgive my presumptuousness.

    I personally have never stated that Im was always good for nothing. Im had a vibrant, aesthetic culture, with stunning achievements in many fields. The fact of the matter is, a society has to be gauged on its net contribution, the sum of its good less its bad :

    – assuming Im’s golden period lasted up to the 13th century (Hulagu’s destruction of Baghdad 1258), the Arabs had achieved stellar success in mathematics, science, architecture, navigation, etc.

    At the same time, the forces of Im were causing untold horror on peaceful, vibrant, scientifically equal and culturally superior societies (India for e.g). The murder of Hs in the 10th, 11th and 12th centuries easily numbers millions. So huge positives and negatives, with overall a net negative contribution.

    – In the last 600 years, their entire positive contribution has been in architecture. Their form of music, ghazals and poetry, are too localized to have any welt-impact. The negative tally includes massacres of million of Armenians, Hs, Buddhists & Xtians.

    In fact, certain scholars hold that it was the Imc blut-lust that caused Europe to be equally bloodthirsty, otherwise the wave of liberalism would have swept a Renaissance Europe earlier than the 17th century.

    I personally don’t subscribe to this view, as it was an assertive Protestantism and aggrandizing Catholicism that had provided the major impediment to humanistic thought in Europe. But the relentless menace of Turkey and Berber pirates must have played a traumatic and pathological role in fashioning Europe’s mindset.

    And the last 200 years. What has Im achieved? Nothing. Zilch. It has only wrecked untold misery on millions the world over. Its scientific, artistic, aesthetic, architectural, intellectual and cultural contribution has been absolutely nil. And yet it has merrily slaughtered Jews, Hs, Xtians, Buddhists, each other, animists, Africans et all. It has proliferated and exported a slum-dwelling poverty the world over, swallowing up the economic progress patiently built up by liberal democracies.

    And this expanded menace has now begun to devour us all.
    Thus the issue with Im. Please tell me one positive contribution Im has made over the last 200 years. Anywhere. In any field. Don’t say Mohammad Rafi. His contribution is not Imc. He is a wonderful Mm person who has made immense contributions to a secular field on an individual basis.

    Show me one positive contribution? I’ll await your answer.

    Is Im required in the future ?
    ==================================
    I have earlier mentioned that Im is required to play a vital role in world development. It has the vigour, discipline and zest to promote. Or to destroy. If it allows its enthusiasm to be chanelled effectively, its dedication will achieve wonders.

    The future world religions will need a Hu mind, a Xtian heart and a Mm arm. The problem is, the blind Mm needs to be led by enlightened Hu principles. The listless Hu needs to be disciplined by Mm zest to follow the enlightened Hu pronciples.
    But what is happening today is the blind Mm is being led by his blind Mm principles, causing untold misery.

    We are sitting on a powder keg of simmering hatred and mistrust. And with suicide bombers hankering after 72 houris a dime a doze, there is no short supply of fuses.

  244. @ BalalSangh Parivar

    BSP mentioned cognitive dissonance. This is a topic studied in Businees Management in MBA schools. Cognitive dissonance is the conflict an individual experiences when confronted by 2 ideas that clash with one other (e.g. X is good and X is bad). Its corollary proposes that human beings resolve this by either rejecting one idea, or changing their beliefs.

    However, this can cause people to take incorrect decisions, and continue to take them, rather than accepting the true picture.

    I see this cognitive dissonance in excellent play in :

    1. Small clarification asserting that the Hu view of the afterlife is tantamount to the same view of monotheistic faiths.
    ========================================================
    No sane person would ever even contemplate such an absurdity.

    On the one hand, we have a completely binary proposition, where one group of souls will be rewarded with eternal, yes ETERNAL joys of paradise, while the others will be roasted alive on a spit FOR EVER AND EVER AND EVER. No half-way house. No retracing of steps. No second chance. One strike, you’re finished.

    Who determines who will gain heaven or hell? Is all sin banned? Then heaven is a very lonely place. What level of sin is permitted? One murder? Two murder? Three? How is repentance to be measured? If a mass murderer repents earnestly, yet a card-sharp remains unapologetic, will God make merry with a child killer while pouring mustard on BBQ’d card-thief?

    It is rubbish. It is absurd. It is untenable. Even Xrtians understood the ridiculousness of this and hastily conjured up a half-way house borstal like purgatory. But it still remains absurd.

    On the other hand the Hu concept of :
    – accepting responsibility and experiencing the results of ones own actions
    – the soul itself evolving through many rises and falls, errors and virtues, ever evolving towards the ultimate evolutionary bliss of Godhead,

    is infinitely more logical.

    Only a highly toxic level of cognitive dissonance would cause someone to equate the two polarized and mutually exclusive concepts.

    I also see this cognitive dissonance at work in equating Puja pandals and Hj pilgrimages.
    =========================================================
    What is the former celebrating? The life and vibrant culture of the nation. What is the latter representing? An alien culture, which has massacred and butchered the indigenous people for a millennia. That is my real objection, the payment of hard-earned money to fund a biriyani feast for the descendants of the murderers of our forefathers.

    It is like neo-nazis in Europe demanding the celebration of Hitler’s birthday, equating that with facilities provided by the state for beautiful Xmas-markets held all over Germany.

    WEIRD ARRAY OF AVATARS
    =====================
    And when BSP finds his sorry self chokingly cornered by the irrefutable logic of Rishi, we see a weird array of characters springing out of the woodwork, Sarita and Shouri, spewing venality-ridden expletives at Rishi.

  245. FOR HADES

    I responded to you comments 2 hours ago. It is still stuck in moderation, & I have requested it to be released.

  246. @ HHBB
    I personally feel, its calligraphy not architecture, that has a purely Islamic positive origin.

    Architecture, I feel got stymied during Caliphate but nevertheless got exported far and wide, with the travelling marauders.

    The dome, the arch and the proportions in landscape and facade development are carryovers from the great pre-Islam days of the middle east. Heavy influence of Pre-Islamic Persian and Roman concepts and the marriage of two.

    In the Indian subcontinent, the islamic archtecture (between 900CE TO 1300 CE) is a sorry excuse, cobbled together from destructed Hindu masterpieces. Conceptually they are horrible and depressing, even though, the workmanship, due to converted Hindu artissanry makes up for it a little.

    It was only in the late Mughal period (with the import of Persian concepts, which themselves are remnant of pre-islamic days, that masterpieces began to develop sparcely..The Taj being the posterboy.)

    The “Mughal” Gardens though are my favourite.
    Pray what diversity of creativity we would have had, had Iran(Persia)not been browbeaten into Islam.

    I enjoy the way u write. :)

  247. @Hades above-

    /Consider this with Haj subsidies. You pay for that. Here you may choose to not face inconvenience by staying away from roads where there are Pujo Pandals. But you have to give a portion of your income to Haj. That is extortion. If you deduct the Haj portion from your income tax by detailed calculation, the IT dept will be up ur ass.//

    Ha ha! Lets twist this peurile argument on its head shall we. Lets say you have relative whos fallen ill on nobomi. And becuase of roads being blocked he dies! Now what would you prefer?

    Bth are extortion. Also Blocking the roads for a foreign dignitary are a totally different matter. Its a matter of the state not some mumbo-jumbo.

    ————–

    Clearly you are retarded and logic is foreign to you. If today SRK dances nude at Eden Gardens, then in anticipation of a huge female crowd there, if the traffic there is smoothened by making some roads one way and by making some roads blocked, then that decision is made because of the anticipated traffic. This makes complete sense. Similarly if there is a big puja and many people are expected to go there on Nabami night, then if the traffic flow is restructured to facilitate that traffic flow, then there is nothing wrong with that. Because in both cases, the ultimate aim is to avoid a bottleneck at places where the majority of traffic is expected to be. But you create a situation where you try to tug heart strings by creating this ill relative on Nobomi night who somehow did not have quicker access to hospitals because of the restructured traffic flow. Very convenient, except that its supremely silly. What if there are 10 people in the Puja crowd who suffer strokes? Hmm. Would they not be facilitated by quicker transit times to the hospital? But anyway for all these things,there are things like emergency numbers and ambulances.

    Blocking the roads for foreign dignitaries is due to security. The point I was trying to illustrate was that roads belong to you and yet not. They belong to others too. And eventually to the government or the private party who owns the roads. So they do things at their discretion.

    But your mask fell off when you made that statement:
    “Ha ha, you think deducting a few crores to fly people to Arabia is the “the most repulsive government policy ever implemented anywhere anytime”! Well then your either naive or biased or both.”

    Ha ha …you pseudosecular [edited]. All the while pretending to be a secular. But you don’t have the guts to admit that you favor islam and harbor a secret hatred of Hindus. See to you it may be a few crore rupees, but to be it is a huge huge injustice. You try to justify that by creating the strawman of the pujo traffic. Its not a like for like comparison…well actually the situations are so starkly different that they don’t warrant a comparision at all.

    [edited]

  248. Al- Hadees-

    A lesson in logic for you. Roads belong to you. But they f-ing belong to me too. And they f-ing belong to the others. And be the design of democracy, to the government too. Traffic flow restructuring is done to give maximum benefit to commuters on roads which are heavily crowded. The reason why there is so much traffic there is immaterial. It is after all shared space yet owned by someone other than you or me. It could well that with that restructured traffic, your relative who fell ill non Nabami night reached the hospital early. It could well be that she didn’t. But the restructuring was not done due to the benefit of Hindus. Restructuring was done just withe the same motivation as it is done to assuage Eden bound spectators on Test Match days. As if it was that case, only Hindus could access those roads. But even Muslims and their lackeys, the pseudos like yourself, CAN access those roads. This is not segregated benefit at the cost of everyone. If more Hinuds derive the benefit from this, it is an unintended consequence. I am sure that many Muslims derive the benefit of such unintended consequences on Muharram and Eid-ul-Zoha/Fitter/whatever.

    Haj subsidy is designed to benefit Muslims and Mulims only. I as a Hindu cannot derive that benefit. The benefit accorded to Muslims is not a consequence, it is by design. If you try to tax everyone by design for the benefit of a select few, it is a heinous and reprehensible act. If you really think that it is a matter of a few crores, then I suggest that you and your fellow pseudos like you share that cost. I am least interested in paying my money for Haj. Now I know you will come up with the asinine logic that you too are least interested in bearing traffic pains. But heh…there is a distinction. That road belongs to you as well as mine and in some strange way, to none of us. But our earnings are mutually exclusive.

  249. // At no level do I see any urge of solidarity, or promotion of nation building on their (muslims) part. At best I see stark apathy to India, not even a trace of gratitude for wresting a nation, massacring Hs & Ss from there, and then obstinately refusing to leave as any decent human being would. At worst I see seething discontent, dangerous indoctrination in the sprawling madrasahs, and a contrived population explosion.//

    I’m sure that’s all you see. After all one sees what one wants to. As I said earlier, and I’m sorry if this sounds a bit harsh, but you are a bit of a bigot.
    //I have never, ever believed in a black and white analysis…//

    Ha ha. Never believed in black and white analysis, eh? Yet earlier you said:
    “….people who have brutalised them for over 1,300 years with no recrimination or retaliation?”’

    Of course as I said, you see what you want to. And when your passions are so roused by a certain religion/race/caste then I’m afraid making a black and white statement doesn’t become too difficult, now does it.

    //How does this (Tipu’s alliance with the Maratha’s) alter his fundamentally anti-H stance? Stalin was first a beloved ally of Hitler. Later, he did a complete U-turn and joined forces with USA and Britain to annihilate Hitler. Can we say Communism & Fascism were not opposed as once they had a sweet dalliance?//

    Who’s saying it makes Tipu an angel? In spite of all the grievances listed by you against Tipu, the Maratha’s, seen to be the only pan-India(or close to that at any rate) Hindu power after the Mughals, had no problems allying with him.
    Let Tipu be what he will, but by your analogy that makes the Marathas either Stalin or Hitler. Hmmm.

    //Tipu made *begrudging* and *condescending* token gestures to his mass H subjects, like a few land grants and patronage of temples. This does not nullify the fact that ://

    I can only laugh at your choice of words, my man. But getting into Tipu’s reign isn’t what I’m looking for as of now.

    //Which proves the point I made earlier. Im is about blutlust. About nihilism. //

    Yes, I Have kinda got that that’s what you believe! Trust me, I have.

    //While there are Hs, they will create justifications for destroying Hs. Then when the last H is murdered, they will immediately invent reasons for wiping out Buddhists. Then Jews. Then Xtians. Ultimately, when the non-M world reverberates in the silence of the dead, the Ms will then start slaughtering each other. //

    And was the last Hindu murdered before Aurangzeb started his Deccan campaign?

    Sigh!

    Again, It’s not my intention to somehow “defend” the actions of Aurangzeb. But then maybe that’s what I’ll have to do to make people like you see that there are many facets to every story, even History.

    //Hmm. Yes. But this belies kh tolerance, it does not suggest M pluralism.//

    Of course it doesn’t. Could anything suggest Muslim pluralism, to you! :D

    //Ranjit Singh appointing an M minister does not alter the seething enmity between the two faiths.//

    But it shows that the “enmity” wasn’t watertight, as you would fervently want to believe.

    And now lets come to something interesting, the Mutiny.

    //The Sepoys were not loyal soldiers of the Mughal king … for heaven’s sake, it was the Sepoys who had assisted in wiping out the last vestige of Mughal power from India (Plassey, Buxar) a few generations before. //

    Yet, they turned to Zafar. Hence it disproves all the more you notion that Islamic rule was all bad!

    Again, when I say that let me add a caveat. When I say “Islamic rule wasn’t all bad” I still believe condition were pretty bad, but then again I don’t subscribe to you black-and-white view of Muslims=bad, Hindus=good.

    For every ten Aurangzebs there might be one Dara shikoh, but more often that not there will be Dara shikoh.

    Also speaking of dara shikhoh, after the litany of barbaric acts on the Sikhs by the Mughals, dara shikoh, a mughal prince was the man invited to lay foundation stone for the golden temple.

    Black-and-white, my man, is a tough colour to pull off. :P

    // After rebelling, the leaderless Sepoys needed a figurehead to grant them legitimacy, and BSZ fit the bill as the most pliable and least ambitious leader. The others (Marathas or Awadhis) would be bound to have vested interests.//
    Now there’s a mighty interesting point. The sepoys turned to a senile Mughal king to grant them, as you say, “legitimacy”

    So, first you said that the Mughals had “brutalized” India “with no recrimination or retaliation” but yet you also say that the Mughal name carried with it “legitimacy”?

    Oh, boy! Aren’t we mixed up?

    // If I remember rightly (correct me if wrong), it was the cavalry units of the Meerut regiment, who were not predominantly H, who requested BSZ to act as their leader.//

    More precisely it was the 3rd Bengal Light Cavalry from Meerut, which asked for Zafar to lead the revolt. Which regiment asked him is hardly significant. also they were one of the first sepoys to arrive in Delhi. Later on even sepoys from as far away as central India, for example the Neemuch Brigade also accepted Zafar.

    // How do you know most of the Sepoys who had requested this were H?//

    Really now, its common knowledge that most of the Sepoys in Delhi during the revolt were Hindu. In fact most of the sepoys from the Bengal Army consisted of largely high-caste Hindus recruited mainly from UP and the adjoining areas.

    Do read up more before making an ebarrassing statement like that

    // The central leadership of the rebellion changed hands numerous times. BSZ was its nominally acclaimed head until the fall of Delhi in Sep 1857. The rebellion continued way beyond that, with leadership shifting to Hs (Tantiya Tope and Nana Sahib).//

    Couldn’t agree more, but the very fact that Zafar was asked to lead, albeit only as a figurehead, the revolt puts paid to your notions of constant warfare between the two religions.

    // The rebellion could not assume a pan-Indian form precisely because of BSZ. One theory suggests that the main reason for the Sikh fiefdoms zealously supporting the British was their bitter enmity with Mms. //

    Oh, boy!

    The Sikhs had zilch to do with the Mughals. Sikhs were largely motivated by the fact that this was a chance for them to take revenge against the ‘Purbias’ for defeating the khalsa armies a few years back.

    Even apart from you fanciful notions of a religious war, Nicholoson’s Punjab Movable Column had Pathans as well as Punjabi Muslims from the Punjab, along with Sikhs, so maybe you’ll have to come up with something a bit more imaginative than “bitter enmity with Mms”.

    //Too much is made of this in Pakistani schoolbooks, which have the temerity to suggest that the Mughals ruled ‘India’ till 1857, when all real hegemony had disappeared with the demise of Aurangzeb in 1707.//

    Please don’t rant. What Pakistani text books write has nothing to do here.

    I know you think we “should have been like Pakistan” but lets keep that aside as of now.

    //This does not mean the Mughals were universally respected.//

    And I agree. But it does prove conclusively that they were not universally hated.

    //You are being too condescending and patronizing, which I find amusing. Superciliousness can be accepted this from a VS Naipaul, or even a Nirod Choudhuri, but from the depth of your displayed knowledge here, I assure you that your pomposity is vapid.//

    I apologise profusely. I will surely try and imbibe more humility in my speech.

    //I can retort by saying “If I am a pro-H bigot, then by distorting history beyond belief and offering facile and banal arguments that hold no water to counter volumes of irrefutable fact, you are an anti-H bigot, and an ignorant one at that too”. But I won’t.//

    Thank you for “not” saying it!

    And it’s too bad if you think I am a anti-Hindu bigot. But could you quote any statement of mine, which made you think like that? Any hyperbolic statement against Hindus? Anything? I’m pretty sure you’ll be a bit hard pressed there.

    //That is a stark untruth. I pointed out that the extent of M love for Hs is so deep, that they have wiped out Hs from 35% to 0.6%. Nothing more. Nothing less. A historical fact.
    From that your bizarre thought-process concludes that I am sad that Hs have not massacred Ms. An audaciously false assumption. Is this the extent of your repertoire? Making things up? Pathetic.//

    “We should have been as secular as Pakistan and Bangladesh, where a 35% pre-partition population has plummeted to 0.6% in Pak.” Is what you said. Now that seems to me a wish (mark the use of the word “should”) to emulate Pakistan.

    But then again if you explicitly state that you are against genocides, who am I to refute that?

    //It seems like you are a natural distorter.//

    Ah, yes, maybe I am, and then again maybe I’m not.

    It’s no fun having a debate without turning your opponents own words against him, now is there?

    //Well, you should know, your M brothers employ it every day. Exactly how many people have been murdered in Iraq today? And Afghanistan? And Kashmir? What about mid-East, where Israel is returning live child-murderers, and getting 2 dead bodies in return? Pray ask your friends and inform me.//

    It’s a sad state of affairs, isn’t it? Well at least it makes you happy, so there’s a silver lining at least.

  250. To quote Swami Vivekananda,

    “Then and then alone you are a Hindu when every man who bears the name, from any country, speaking our language or any other language, becomes at once the nearest and the dearest to you. Then and then alone you are a Hindu when the distress of anyone bearing that name comes to your heart and makes you feel as if your own son were in distress. Then and then alone you are a Hindu when you will be ready to bear everything for them, like the great example I have quoted at the beginning of this lecture, of your great Guru Govind Singh.”

    Maharaja Ranjit Singh is another example of a warrior who faught his way for the Hindu cause.

  251. @ Rishi

    Nope, i didn’t miss it. I don’t blame you though; the format of this webpage kinda sucks. Search for “A$$” :P. You’ll find my answer after your comment.

  252. @yourfan2

    //Clearly you are retarded and logic is foreign to you//

    I know debating when facts aren’t on your side is frustrating but lets please not get personal.

    Coming back to the pujas, you aren’t getting my point. I have no problems with road diversions and arrangements by the police to smoothen traffic flow. You arguments giving examples of an eden match and all are all very fine.

    My problem is that puja pandals are built ON ROADS. Do you get my point? The pandal is built in the MIDDLE OF THE ROAD. Similarly, I would have a problem if a cricket match was held on Park Street instead of in Eden gardens.

    See roads are meant to carry traffic, not , as I said earlier to pray to 12 armed goddesses or offer Namaaz to a genocidal God.

    //Ha ha …you pseudosecular [edited]. All the while pretending to be a secular. But you don’t have the guts to admit that you favor islam and harbor a secret hatred of Hindus. See to you it may be a few crore rupees, but to be it is a huge huge injustice. You try to justify that by creating the strawman of the pujo traffic. Its not a like for like comparison…well actually the situations are so starkly different that they don’t warrant a comparision at all.//

    I am not trying to justify anything. Two wrongs don’t make a right. Just because public roads are used for hindu religious purposes doesn’t make the use of public money to ferry people to arabia any les repulsive.

    And while I agree that the haj subsidy is unjust i feel your slipping into hyperbole, when you say it is ” the most repulsive government policy ever implemented *anywhere* *anytime*”. I mean, come on. Heard of a chap called Adolf Hitler? Surely his govt’s policies were a *bit* more repulsive, no? :P

    Also, if you are still not convinced please do tell. We can take up tax subsidies granted to HUFs or the TN govt’s temple meal schemes as examples instead of the pujo.

  253. @ Hades
    Found it. Wasnt much to find :)

    The Maharaja had so much disdain for the Q that he willed the reacquired “Koh-i-Noor” diamond to the Jagannath temple in Puri, just it doesnt fall back into the hands of Ms or Britishers.
    Unfortunately, his legacy ended with him.

  254. //Wasnt much to find//

    Nope, there wasn’t. *A$$* I said, I didn’t think I would have a very productive debate with you. No offense meant though.

    Btw, I’m unaware of this fact about the kohinoor being willed to the jaggannath temple. Could you send me a link?

  255. Hi Hades,

    POST 1 OF 5
    =====================

    I will respond by analyzing my answer as :

    1. BAD ERRORS IN YOUR HISTORY
    FYI, 3rd Bengal Cavalry WAS primarily Mm

    2. PROOF OF HEAVY BIAS OF MS IN 1857
    Jihad, refusal to support Hus, riots

    3. LEVEL OF HU-MM RAPPROACHMENT IN 1857
    There was definitely rapproachment between the faiths, but this is overplayed, and the trust soon dissipated.

    4. YOUR INSISTENCE ON ‘OTHERS’ SEEING BLACK & WHITE HISTORY”
    This is not your ‘imagination’, but your ‘manufacture’. Without it, you have no point, no argument at all, so your insistence to cling to this.

    5. YOUR POINT : FOR EVERY 10 AURANGZEB’S, THERE WAS ONE DARA
    Your comment proves what I have been saying all alone.

    To prevent one long post, and enabling people to read only the posts they may be interested in, or ignore all of them ?, I am loading each comment as an individual post.

    POST 1. BAD ERRORS IN YOUR HISTORY
    ===================================

    1a : Was the 3rd Bengal Cavalry primarily Hu, or Mm?
    =====================================================
    Your cursory and shallow evaluation has again caused you to reach false conclusions. I asked “how do you know that the sepoys who had requested BSZ to be king were Hu?

    You responded by saying “most of the Bengal Army consisted of Hindus …. Do read up more before making an embarrassing statement like that”

    Hmm. You are wrong, and very embarrassingly so. In general, the mix of sepoys in Bengal, Bombay & Madras were 3 Hu to 1 Mm. However, the cavalry regiments were near monopolized by Ms. Very reliable estimates state that Ms in the cavalry of the Madras Army outnumbered Hs (including Dalits) by 7:1. In Bengal they are likely to be as much. However, surveys have placed Mms at 3 Mm to 1 Hu in the regular Bengal cavalry, mainly Ranghar or Hindustani Ms from the districts around Delhi.

    It was the released cavalrymen of the 3rd Bengal Light Cavalry (the famed ‘85’) who rode the 40 miles from Meerut to Delhi first. What faith do you think they were, clever-clogs?

    You can get more info on this on Douglas Peers review “The Sepoys and the Company: Tradition and Transition in Northern India, 1770-1830 by Seema Alavi”. It was published in the Journal of Asian Studies,May 1997.

    Even in the Punjab, Hindustani & Ranghars Ms were the nucleus of all new Punjab Cavalry, as well as Infantry units raised during the period 1846-56 including the Corps of Guides.

    The cases of individual mutiny in the Madras Cavalry (e.g. Vaniyambadi, full of Labbai Muslims, where the 8th Madras Cavalry rebelled) is precisely because of their Mm composition.

    1b : Bahadur Shah II was not held in any esteem by Sepoys, who treated him with disdain
    ===========================================================
    I have said so before, & I will say so again. The Sepoys, even the Mm ones who had ridden to Delhi on 10 May, did not hold BSZ in great esteem. As mutineers, they needed some form of legal recognition, and the pliable and weak BSZ fit the bill brilliantly, especially as Delhi was centrally located and the last remnant of an empire that at one time held a large swathe of India.

    Sepoys also drooled after the vast supply of arms and the massive magazine at Delhi.

    The sepoys gave BSZ scant respect, address him as “Old Man” (supported by narratives of Syed Mubarak Shah and Jivanlal). Some soldiers were openly disrespectful, pulling on his beard and taunting him ‘ye buddhe, come and fight’.

    Throughout May to September, soldiers strode through diwan e khas with shoes on, sometimes with horses and arms, something that had been inconceivable even during the dark days of Nadir Shah & the British.

    On numerous occasions BSZ had wailed and threatened to leave Delhi for Mehrauli, Haj or even commit suicide.

    Henry Mead, in his encyclopedic (albeit somewhat biased) work “The Sepoy Revolt : Its causes and consequences” cites eye witness accounts confirming that the Sepoys demanded BSZ cede the guns & the magazine, & they took his son too.

    The effective power remained in the hands of Sepoys as well, through their ‘court of mutineers’. Its composition included 2 members each of cavalry, infantry and artillery and four civilians with the CIC (Commander in Chief) as president. The court voting by majority, and though disputes would be referred to the king, if the king disagreed with the court on an issue, the court could force the king to accept their decision. Even orders from the CIC were reviewed and questioned.

    The power of the court was curtailed after the arrival of Bakht Khan and the powerful Rohilkhand decsision. Even so, such a set-up proves that the Sepoy relationship with BSZ, far from being one of loyalty fighting for their liege, was rather an egregiously morganatic marriage.

    1c : NIMACH REGIMENT
    ========================
    You had mentioned the Nimach regiment. Nimach (North Indian Mounted Artillary & Cavalry HQ) comprised Bengal troops. At the time they marched to Delhi, they were being led by Ghaus Khân. When they were finally destroyed by Nicholson’s famed rear attack, they were being led by Abdul Samad Khan. Thus they had Mm leaders. This lays hollow your claim that the Hu Sepoys, of their own free will, prostrated themselves in front of BSZ.

    This, and my previously posted comments prove that Sepoy motives for token affiliation to BSZ were far more complex, selfish and disparate than an outpouring of undiluted loyalty as touted by textbooks.

  256. POST 2 OF 5. PROOF OF Mm FANATICISM IN 1857
    ==========================================
    As the war progressed, many influential sections of Mm society witnessed shrill cries of a highly charged Ismc fanaticism. To cite just a few examples :

    – On 19 May, a few days after Hu (according to you) Sepoys liberated Delhi, Maulvi Muhammad Sayyid hoisted the standard of Jehad in Jamia Masjid, claiming it was intended against the Hus. Though he begrudgingly removed it on BSZ’s orders, this betrays the mindset of their religious lobby,

    – There were calls for jihad by Muslim leaders like Maulana Fazl-e-Haq Khairabadi, including the millenarian Ahmedullah Shah,

    – After May 12 1857, the Muslim elite of the walled city of Delhi went berserk in converting whites, and killing the non-convertors. An American staff-member of the English daily Gazette was the only white staff to survive the massacre, as he had embraced Islam. Reports cite numerous instances of maulvis having a field day reading Kalma to white children and women, who were then taken into the harem’s of the walled city.

    – Bakht Khan, the leader of the Sepoys from July 2007, was am extremist zealot. He counted among his close friends fanatics like Maukana Gangohi , a co-founder of the Deoband school, and Moulvi Sarfaraz Ali, leader of Mujahideens,

    – In Urdu accounts of the ‘Ghadr’, the British are not called Goras or Firangis , but Kafirs and Nasranis. Maulana Abdul Aiz and General Bakht Khan took particular relish in the these terms & used them liberally,

    – Bakht Khan denied help to the NIMACH brigade when it was led by Sidhara Singh and Hira Singh. When BSZ reprimanded him for this, he retorted “I am not anybody’s naukar to go and help anybody”,

    But the ugliest aspect was horrible Hu-Muslim riots erupting in many Mm-dominated cities. The famous historian, Shri R.C. Majumdar states “Communal hatred led to ugly communal riots in many parts of UP. The green flag was hoisted and bloody wars were fought between Hs and Ms in Bareilly, Bijnor, Moradabad and other places where the Ms shouted for revival of the Mm kingdom.”

    Describing NW provinces, especially Rohilkhand, Majumdar says “Ms spat over Hs and openly defiled their houses by sprinkling them with cow’s blood and placing cow’s bones within the compounds….The Hs oppressed by Ms, were depressed at the success of the mutiny, and daily offered prayers to God for the return of the English.”

    So much about the theory that it was a golden period of unblemished Hu-Mm amity, with all previous grievances forgotten.

  257. POINT 3 OF 5. LEVEL OF HU-MM RAPPROACHMENT IN 1857
    =====================================================

    Yet in spite of everything, there definitely existed a rapproachment between the mutually exclusive faiths of Hu & Im, and a feeling of camaraderie was generated not only in the initial phases, but persisted in pockets throughout the 2 years.

    My contention is this is overplayed, and counterbalanced by religious extremism and communal riots (see point 2).

    Heartwarming instances of co-operation include :

    BSZ banned cow slaughter in Delhi. When Maulvi Muhammad Sayyid, instructed to remove the standard of Jehad in Jamia Masjid, protested, BSZ declared that Hs and Ms were alike to him.

    The Delhi Urdu Akhbar tried instilling unity among Hs & Ms, with emotional editorials calling upon them to fight together, as they shared a common belief in “One God” (using the terms Allah & Adi Purush) as distinguished from “the Trinity-worshipping feringhis” believed in Trinity Even sections of the clergy, like followers of the sufi Ahmadullah Shah, adopted a similar position expressed in their tract “Risala Fateh Islam”.

    Proclamations were issued in popular languages, and Hindi and Urdu texts were provided simultaneously. Joint proclamations were issued for both Hs & Ms.

    Bakht Khan, inspite of his extremism, meticulously enforced the ban on cow-slaughter, & spoke out against the mujahids (though this seesm to be be more for their dirtiness inside the Jama Masjid rather than anything else).

    Begum Hazrat Mahal of Lucknow and Khan Bahadur Khan directly appealed to Hs in the name of Ram and Krishna. Her loyal ally was Beni Madhav, arguably the most feared man in British ranks in the rebellion.

    In many places, the local populace, comprising both faiths, rebelled with no assistance from the Sepoys or the military. Muzaffarnagar, was destroyed by the villagers on May 14, 1857, a full month and 7 days before the Sepoys mutinied. At Lucknow, the people rose up several days before 31 May (when the 71st Infantry rebelled). At Fatehpur, a non-military outpost, civilian natives were arming themselves in June. The same people’s revolt in Bijnor & Badaun.

    AZIMULLAH
    ===========
    Nana Sahib’s commander and right hand man was Azimullah Khan. He was an amazing person, who fluently spoke in French and English, and was a good pianist. In 1854, Nana Sahib sent him to London to persuade the English to give him back his kingdom.

    Though failing to acieve this, Azimullah did charm London, where he had a series of love affairs and met JS Mill, Dickens, Thomas Carlyle and Macaulay. A critical point was on his return journey, he visited Turkey and Russia, where he witnessed English reverses in the Crimean War. This could have led to the dream of a military solution in India.

    This is not a far fetched theory. Current research is suggesting that far from a ‘spontaneous explosion of anger against cartridges’, the rebellion was a carefully pre-planned and executed exercise, and a silent recruitment of Sepoys loyal to Wajid Ali, Peshwa Nana Sahib of the Marathas, BSZ, even Dost Muhammed, took place in the first five months of 1857.

    Above all, in Ayodhya, Mahant Ramdas, Maulavi Amir Ali, Shambhu Prasad Shukla and Achchan Khan, religious figures from both faiths, were hanged together.

    All of these I accept, acknowledge and appreciate. However, the sad truth is that :

    – a lot of this was artifical, a temporary measure to defeat a common foe

    – even amidst these instances of camaraderie, religious extremism raised its ugly head

    – these paragraphs of dulcet co-existence appear as Cinderella-like motifs in the overall grand narrative, which is one of an avowed convention by Ms to grind down Hs till Hm disappears from the face of the earth. Either through

    As you see, I am a lot more informed than one emitting a shallow, superficial rant against Ms. A few colourful motifs surrounding the rebellion you may be interested in :

    – The greatest cause of the failure of the 1857 rebellion may have been the Sultan of Turkey, when he accepted Stratford Radclyffe’s (British ambassador in Istanbul) request to allow Ottoman territory to cross the Isthmus of Suez, rather than forcing them to sail around the Cape of Good Hope.

    The battle-arema of Central India engaged the largest British overseas expeditionary force till then, causing destruction of nearly 100 million pounds worth in property. Army units from Crimea and China were moved to India.

    The key was held by the Maratha rulers who remained non-committant, like Scindia. Governor General Canning noted ” If Scindia joins the rebels, I will pack off tomorrow”. He later commented that: ” These princes acted as the breakwaters to the storm which otherwise would have swept us in one great wave”.

    Guess who said ““It is true that an unending war raged between the Hindus and Muslims in India from 1192 when the Muslims defeated the Hindu king of Delhi, Prithviraj Chauhan. However, it is also true that this war ended with the death of the last great Mughal Emperor, Aurangzeb, in 1707. This paved the path for a real Hindu-Muslim synthesis that developed in the 18th century, finally culminating in Hindus and Muslims becoming blood brothers as they fought and died in the defence of their common national sovereign, Bahadur Shah Zafar in 1857”. Any idea? Veer Savarkar, that ‘despised right wing nut”.

    Finally, as you know, Begum Hazrat Mahal, Nana Saheb and his minister Azimullah all escaped to Nepal. Wajid Ali Shah, the deposed Avadh nawab, on exile to Kolkata, had sent his mother and son to London to meet Queen Victoria to plead restoration of his fiefdom. The queen mother of Avadh, Queen Mallika Kishwar, known as Jenab Alliya Begum, was stick there when the rebellion exploded on the Indian scene. She died in Paris in Jan-1858 and was buried in Pere Lachaise cemetery. I have been to visit her cemetery.

    Can your ‘MBA friend in the best French Business School’ claim the same, clever-clogs?

  258. POINT 4 OF 5 : YOUR INSISTENCE ON ‘OTHERS’ SEEING A BLACK & WHITE HISTORY
    ===========================================================

    I was quite surprised at your constant insistence that Hu-sympathisers see everything in black & white, believing that there was not a single instance of Hu-Mm amity in the last 1,300 years, and that we try to present everything as “100% Hu good vs 100% Mm evil”.

    I was surprised, as nearly every comment of mine carries the caveat that Hs are by no means perfect, they suffer from gross imperfections, and Ism too has demonstrated a once vibrant civilization in the (alas too distant) past.

    I always offer the parallels of the Axis and Allies in WWII. The latter committed horrific atrocities too (famine deaths of 5 million in Bengal, atom bombing defenceless citizens … twice, obliteration of Dresden, killing arguably 300,000 people in one night alone). However, in the overall scheme of things, the Allied outlook and stance is infinite4ly superior to the terror unleashed by the Nazis & Japan. The same holds for the Hu-Mm experience. And thus I was surprised by your insistence on my polarized belief. A

    nd then I read your comments, & it made perfect sense. The penny dropped. Saul of Tarsus saw the light. The dove descended. The Bodhi tree bloomed. I read your feeble examples ‘proving’ Hu-Mm amity through the ages. Tipu Sultan. BSZ. Ranjit Singh’s minister. These are straw figures which can be blown away by a single huff and puff of historical inspection. As soon as I shone the torch of scrutiny, you are forced to retreat with statements like
    1. “Tipu’s reign isn’t what I’m looking for as of now.
    2. “not my intention to somehow “defend” the actions of Aurangzeb.
    3. “Could anything suggest Muslim pluralism, to you (without any proof of what constitutes Mm pluralism in the present world to ‘you’)!
    4. “There was enmity, but the “enmity” wasn’t watertight,
    When I say “Islamic rule wasn’t all bad” I still believe condition were pretty bad, but
    5. A”nd I agree that the Mughals were not universally respected, but it does prove that they were not universally hated.

    So your ‘proof’ of Hu-Mm amity boils down to the fact that there was horrific oppression, but there were periods when the oppression was not applied so intensely. There were a huge procession of brutal anti-Hu Mm kings, but there were a few not so fanatic ones as well.

    With this as your yard-stick, you have no goodies in your bag, you have no arguments left in your jhola. You find yourself forced to stand down from your soap-box. Thus you ‘invent’ that your counter-party is advocating a perfect black and white scenario, and then you can sustain the discussion by pointing out there are a few white spots in the black, so your counter-party is not correct.

    Ho hum. I see now. Entertaining, but frustrating.

    I assure you, the di-chrome scenario is not reality. It is not even your ‘imagination’. It is your ‘manufacture’. Without it, you have no point at all, so your insistence to cling to this.

  259. POINT 5 OF 5. HADES SAYS “FOR EVERY 10 AURANGZEB’S, THERE WAS ONE DARA”

    Gosh. Your comment (admission) goes far beyond what I have been saying all alone.

    Actually, I have a better view of Ms than that. I don’t believe that for every 10 brutal Ms there is one good one. I believe that there are a huge number of good Ms out there. However,

    – the ones that matter are the fanatic ones who soon occupy the centre stage, either through the explicit support, reluctant theological acceptance, or apathy of the aam-Mm aadmi. As such, the fanatics set the agenda. So we will always be back to square one.

    Let us take your example of Dara. Did the Ms that matter allow Dara to continue? Or did they zealously throw their lot behind the fanatic Aurangzeb, honouring him as zinda-pir. The Mm society will allow it’s Daras to be decapitated, and its Aurangzeb’s to wreak havoc. This is my point.

    – the population explosion carried out by the fanatics will always ensure that the vast majority of Ms will remain foaming zealots. On the one hand, we have the powerful mallet of education; the internet, World culture. In one generation, even if these factors prevent 70% of the children of fanatics from the snares of extremism, the other 30% has quadrupled its population. So there is no end.

    Hades “It’s no fun having a debate without turning your opponents own words against him, now is there?”
    True, but you should not lie to make your counterparty appear to say what they are definitely not saying. You lose all credibility in that manner.

    HHBB //Well, you should know, your M brothers employ it every day. Exactly how many people have been murdered in Iraq today? And Afghanistan? And Kashmir? What about mid-East, where Israel is returning live child-murderers, and getting 2 dead bodies in return? Pray ask your friends and inform me.//

    Hades // It’s a sad state of affairs, isn’t it? Well at least it makes you happy, so there’s a silver lining at least.

    So Hades is saying that I am happy that Israel is forced to return child-murderers in return for two corpses? Hmmm. I don’t blame him; when one runs out of all arguments, and any semblance of logic, what can one do but behave like this?

    Sad Hades. But you are highly entertaining and amusing. In the ‘Goodfellas’ sort of way.

  260. Dear Punter (A Kashmiri),

    Please add these 3 *LATEST* Jihadi attacks to my list in point # 8 above.

    So much for your sugar-coating of the fate of Hindus if they dared to enter Kashmir:

    (viii) July 3, 2008

    Five Hindu pilgrims, including women, returning from Amarnath to Jammu were injured when a Muslim mob pelted stones on their vehicles at Banihal.

    (ix) July 20, 2008

    Islamic terrorists attacked a group of Amarnath pilgrims, and killed one pilgrim, Ashok Kumar, near Hotel Kingway in Gulmarg.

    Islamic terrorists hurled a hand grenade on a 10-member group of pilgrims from Uttar Pradesh, who had completed their Amarnath pilgrimage and were visiting the tourist location of Gulmarg. Five others persons were wounded in the explosion. The condition of three of them was stated to be critical. The others escaped unhurt.

    (x) July 20, 2008

    Islamic terrorists also attacked another convoy of Hindu Amarnath pilgrims near Ganderbal with three grenade explosions, while the pilgrims were returning to Srinagar from Baltal). The three grenade explosions missed their targets and failed to cause any deaths or damage to the Amarnath pilgrims.

  261. @ Rishi,

    Thx for your words of encouragement. It took me a while to type in after work (thus the numerous grammatical and spelling errors for which I apologise), though I had most of the data in notebooks (last year was the 150th anniversary of 1857, so there were a lot of articles and discussion here in India and abroad).

    This is why I found Hades poorly informed observations so juvenile and amusing. When I raised Pakistani textbooks, he said I was ‘ranting’. I thought that the objective way to understand an historical event is to conduct a wide study covering all angles. I was browsing through my pre-2007 & 2007 notes yesterday, and was quite impressed by the open circumspection I had employed for 1857. In addition to traditional books, to keep abreast of current & conflicting findings, I had also studied sites from :

    – Pak colmnists (AH Amin) & columns (www.defencejournal.com)
    – Nationalist Indians (organiser.com)
    – Anti-Hu Communist historians (Amaresh Mishra)
    – Indian Mm historians (Irfan Habib, Mahmood Farooqui)
    – Contemporary British historians (Mead)
    – Current British / European historians (Kaye, Dalrymple, Spear)
    – 1857 specific sites:1857mutiny.com, theyear1857.wordpress.com
    – Christian websites (Gene Brooks)
    – Indian Mm discussion sites – indianmuslims.in
    – Sikh sites – sikhspectrum.com

    etc, etc, etc.

    And when you present the facts of your meticulous research that demolishes the absurd and wishful fairy-tale history of the pseudo-seculars, they call it ‘ranting’ and then disappear … only to emerge as a new avatar with a new name at a new time and place, but with the same old agenda!! :-) LOL

    That is why I say one will never, ever be able to convince pseudo-seculars by logic and facts. The only time they will be convinced, is when butchers charge in to their house, scimitar in hand, and the bloodbath suddenly becomes intimate.

    Of course, by that time it is too late, but perhaps that is the prognosis of our faith. Hm is not solely a construct of the likes of Vivekananda and Ramakrishna and their admirers like you & me. It encompasses in its ambit the teeming masses of pseudo-secular as well, who far outnumber nationalists, especially as pseudo-secularism is mentally pleasing, ethically comforting, politically correct and economically reassuring (in the very short term).

    If such pseudo-seculars ‘wish’ to plunge the nation in to disaster through their misguided policies, that is what will transpire. You & I & yourfan2 & Hujur et all may desperately try to stem the rot at considerable personal risk, expense and investment of time and resource. But we cannot stop the freefall.

    Ah well. Perhaps that’s what is meant to be. Shob-i maayer Iccha. Tini Icchamoyi Tara :-)

  262. @ HHBB

    Thanks friend. Your concluding posts at the end of these type of debates usually provide a fitting finale, leaving little to doubt and obfuscation.

    But we cannot give up, both at the intellectual/awareness level and at the grassroots/action level. Thats simply not a choice and I am trying to figure out a way to balance the both.

    Without these detailed discussions, we cannot create the awareness in to the intellectual world, the media, and the urban educated. Something that we neglected in the past with disastrous results.

    At the same time we have to maintain ground level action and activism and form the crucial link between the village bloke and the Ipod generation.

    It would be great if I could find 10 or so Bengali speaking people, residing in Rajasthan, willing to voluteer some of their time, for work. Will be happy to discuss details by personal mails.
    Let me know if anyone is interested
    rishi_khujur@rediffmail.com

  263. Hades wrote:

    Excerpt from the Governor’s Address 2003 in the TN assembly:
    “Annadhanam Scheme”, launched by the Hon’ble Chief Minister, aimed at providing free mid-day meals to devotees in temples, has been widely appreciated by the people. This scheme is presently being implemented in 144 temples. This Government plans to extend the Annadhanam scheme in phases to cover more temples.

    Please do express yr outrage about this “sickular” act as you have been doing about the haj subsidy.

    ——————————-

    My take:

    In case you did not know, the “secular” Tamil Nadu government had implemented the Annadanam (Free food) scheme in Islamic Dargahs and Christian Churches as well.

    A registered trust was formed under the State Minorities Commission with a corpus fund of One crore Rupees earmarked from the Chief Minister’s Public Relief Fund.

    The trust provides free daily noon-meals to people belonging to minority communities. The Trust started at Annadanam (Free food) at 7 churches, and then extended it to at least 88 more churches during Christmas 2005 in a phased manner.

    The Tamil Nadu Wakf Board has provided Annadanam in 113 Islamic Dargahs to kick off the project and then planned to extend it to other Dargahs in Tamil Nadu in a phased manner.

    So, in case you still didn’t get it, Annadanam (Free food) scheme in Tamil Nadu is not some special set-up for Hindu temples only, but also includes Islamic Dargahs and Christian Churches aplenty.

  264. Hades wrote:

    Blocking the city for days on end is a fundamental right? Imagine how much it costs the city to organise the pujas. Then compare this to the Haj subsidy.

    ——————————-
    My take:

    The Pujas are a 10-DAY affair every year. How much does it cost the city in when skull-capped believers squat to pray in the city streets in various Indian cities like Kolkata, Mumbai, Bangalore etc, thereby blocking traffic every Friday and this happens 52 TIMES a YEAR.

    And shall I compare this to the Haj subsidies paid to Hajis, as you asked? Sure, here you go.

    I take the liberty of quoting an earlier post by Jago Jano in the “The Usual” …and I add a few more figures to it, even though the figures below are just the tip of the ice-berg as they give only a fraction of the tax-payers money spent so far on Hajis (and mind you, the details does not include many years’ data):

    More importantly, the beloved Haj, the obligatory “Believers Only” assembly in the harsh deserts of Arabia, acts as a much-needed boot camp to boost pure Islamic beliefs (unadulterated by Hindu beliefs) among the 2 million-odd believers who return back to India and other Dar-ul-Harbs.

    The Indian Intelligence Agencies talk in hushed tones, but do not dare say that Haj returnees (Hajis) become kattar (hardened) in Islam, with the result that vast sections of urban and rural India looks like a piece of the Middle-East, teeming with Islamic supremacists in long beards and shapeless forms in dark burqas, and of course Software Engineer Jihadis.
    Every year, a core group of intelligent, potential youth are identified from among the Hajis, and they stay in Saudi Arabia for a few years for rigourous training and guidance in the Quran, Jihad and Islam; before returning to India to spread the Islamic revolution.

    And yet every year, in a delicious irony, the Indian government has been openly extorting tax-payers for money to pay for this Islamisation of India.

    Taxing the Hindu-majority taxpayers to pay over 1.2 Lakh (0.12 million and growing) Haj tourists annually to become kattar (hardened) takes the cake !

    For those of you that care for Haj numbers, here are some more details on funding terror in India:

    The Haj Committee Act (passed in the Indian Parliament in 1959) paved the way for a Haj Fund to which can be credited ‘any sums allotted by the central government or any state government.

    Just in the past decade, starting 1992, the annual Haj “subsidy” from the Indian Government (Central Government) has grown from:

    Rs 250 million (1994)

    Rs 1,370 million (2000)
    Rs 1,545 million (2001)

    Rs 1,726.3 million (2003)
    Rs 1,607 million (2004)
    Rs 1,796.6 million (2005)
    Rs 1,800 million (2006),
    Rs 3,500 million (2007)
    Rs 4,000 million (2008)

    Add up the totals, if you have a calculator.

    And this is not even counting the annual largesse from all the State Governments to Islamisation of India.

    Just to mention a few examples:

    1) In 2008, Rs 98.2 million (Rs. 9.8 crores)was spent by the Jammu & Kashmir government to build a swanky new Haj House in Srinagar, nothwithstanding the grand Haj House in Mumbai.

    2) In 2001, Rs. 50 million (Rs. 5 crores) is allocated from tax-payers money by the Andhra Pradesh State Government for the new Haj House under construction in Hyderabad.

    3) In Karnataka, for example, in 2003, Rs.790 million (Rs. 79 crores) was collected by the state government from about two lakh (200,000) temples’s hundis (donation boxes). From that money, temples received 70 million for their maintenance, while Waqf subsidy (Muslim Madrassas) and Haj subsidy (for trip to Mecca) was given Rs.590 million (59 crores) even though the Madrassas brought in zero revenue to the state. Twenty-five percent of the two lakh temples (i.e., about 50,000 temples)in Karnataka, will be closed down for lack of resources.

    4) To mention a few more notable gifts, the Andhra Pradesh state government gave away Rs 50 million (Rs. 5 crores) raised from Hindu temples’ hundis and taxpayers towards the repair of mosques in 2001.

    5) In 2006, the Andhra Pradesh state government did something even better – it gave away Rs. 65 million (Rs. 6.5 crores) to build/refurbish Mosques in 2006 to create more Jihadis brainwashed in the Quran.

    [Add to this list, the following data:
    1) A new Haj complex coming up in New Delhi at a tax-payer cost of Rs. 300 million (Rs. 30 crores), in addition to the first Haj House on Asaf Ali Rd.

    2) There is already a Haj House (a 19 storey building) in Mumbai. Now the Maharashtra government announced in 2007, that it has agreed to the demand of the Maharashtra Haj Committee to build a second Haj House in Mumbai at tax-payer cost.

    3) The new Haj House built in Nagpur at an estimated cost of Rs.102.8 million (Rs 10.28 crores) in addition to the ones in Mumbai.

    4) A new Haj House in being planned in Varanasi and Ghaziabad (Uttar Pradesh) and this is just the tip of the ice-berg.

    Read more about how the first Haj House in Mumbai has become a terrorists haven: http://www.hvk.org/articles/0606/50.html ]

    With all the extra money being pumped into spreading Islam, there is no doubt that bomb-blasts and murderous attacks (on Taslima Nasreen) are becoming widespread in Hyderabad, while Karnataka is finding elaborate Jihadi training camps in the forests near Hubli. (No need to travel to Pakistan and Bangladesh for training, you see?)

    During the dark centuries of the Muslim Occupation of India, this taxation of Hindu civilians to fund Islamic expansionism was called by another name – the Jaziya tax.

    Instead of helping to alleviate illiteracy, poverty and unemployment, India is frittering away Billions of rupees collected from Hindus EVERY YEAR to fund the Islamisation of India.

    Instead of calling for end to the Islamisation of India, we Indians are paying for the rapid Islamisation of India.

    I find that incredibly funny !!! :)

  265. WHAT RELIGION WERE THE DELHI SEPOYS?

    Let’s take it from the top shall we.

    I said:” Really now, its common knowledge that most of the Sepoys in Delhi during the revolt were Hindu. In fact most of the sepoys from the Bengal Army consisted of largely high-caste Hindus recruited mainly from UP and the adjoining areas.”

    HHBB replied:” Hmm. You are wrong, and very embarrassingly so. In general, the mix of sepoys in Bengal, Bombay & Madras were 3 Hu to 1 Mm. However, the cavalry regiments were near monopolized by Ms. Very reliable estimates state that Ms in the cavalry of the Madras Army outnumbered Hs (including Dalits) by 7:1. In Bengal they are likely to be as much. However, surveys have placed Mms at 3 Mm to 1 Hu in the regular Bengal cavalry, mainly Ranghar or Hindustani Ms from the districts around Delhi”

    To sum up, I made two propositions:

    1. Most sepoys in Delhi were Hindu
    2. Most sepoys in the Bengal army were Hindu

    HHBB grandiosely announces that I’m “wrong” and then goes on to say, “the mix of sepoys in Bengal, Bombay & Madras were 3 Hu to 1 Mm” in effect agreeing with me that “Most sepoys in the Bengal army were Hindu” !

    The fun doesn’t end here, though. He then goes on to say that the cavalry regiments consisted of a majority of Muslims totally skipping my proposition that “Most sepoys in Delhi were Hindu”.

    In fact he’s right about the cavalry. Most cavalry regiments in the Bengal Army, at least pre-1857, consisted largely of Muslims. So in effect the 3rd Bengal light cavalry, responsible for setting off what Savarkar called “the First War for Independence” was largely Muslim.

    Now coming back to my first proposition: most of the sepoys in Delhi were Hindu.

    Now, the thing is the Bengal army did not only consist of cavalry units, my good man. It had, what are called, infantry units too. Now these infantry units, as I’m sure you can look up, were overwhelmingly upper –caste Hindu. And you know what? In sheer numbers, infantry units would outnumber cavalry units by a huge number; hence we come to your statistic of the Hindus outnumbering Muslims by 3:1.

    Now while Delhi was taken by the largely Muslim 3rd Light Cavalry it was the 11 and 20 Native Infantry units which followed the 3rd Cavalry to Delhi and these were predominantly Hindu. Moreover the 38, 54 and 74 Native Infantry were stationed in Delhi. Again their composition was largely Hindu.

    Thus we see that the sepoys in Delhi at the time of the Revolt were largely Hindu. In fact this is precisely why Zafar tried so desperately to contain the more radical elements among the Muslims, as it would alienate the sepoys.

    Now it was these largely Hindu sepoys who, much to your chagrin, accepted Zafar as their figurehead.

    Hence, we come back to the original point of yours which I refuted. If the Mughals had “brutalised” the populace “with no recrimination or retaliation” why would a largely Hindu sepoy force accept him as a figurehead?

    You then said, quite correctly I might add, “After rebelling, the leaderless Sepoys needed a figurehead to grant them legitimacy, and BSZ fit the bill as the most pliable and least ambitious leader. The others (Marathas or Awadhis) would be bound to have vested interests”

    BUT, if the Mughals had “brutalised” the populace “with no recrimination or retaliation” how would such a dynasty carry with it “legitimacy” in the eyes of the largely Hindu Sepoys?

    So you see, your black-and-white notion of Muslim rulers having “brutalised them (Hindus) for over 1,300 years with no recrimination or retaliation?” needs a bit of changing.

    ==========================================================

    ZAFAR WAS A FIGUREHEAD

    HHBB then goes on a rant to “prove” that Zafar was a figurehead when I’ve said the same earlier!

    I has earlier said: “Couldn’t agree more, but the very fact that Zafar was asked to lead, albeit only as a *figurehead*, the revolt puts paid to your notions of constant warfare between the two religions.”

    I don’t think its anybodies opinion here than Zafar had any real power. My point was that it’s the Mughal name he carried that was the real attraction for the largely Hindu Sepoys. As you said, it granted them legitimacy.

    ==========================================================

    THE NEEMUCH REGIMENT

    You made two comments about the Neemuch regiment :

    1.”You (Hades) had mentioned the Nimach regiment. Nimach (North Indian Mounted Artillary & Cavalry HQ) comprised Bengal troops. At the time they marched to Delhi, they were being led by Ghaus Khân. When they were finally destroyed by Nicholson’s famed rear attack, they were being led by Abdul Samad Khan. Thus they had Mm leaders. This lays hollow your claim that the Hu Sepoys, of their own free will, prostrated themselves in front of BSZ.”

    2. “Bakht Khan denied help to the NIMACH brigade when it was led by Sidhara Singh and Hira Singh. When BSZ reprimanded him for this, he retorted “I am not anybody’s naukar to go and help anybody”

    Hmmm. So you claim that Bakht Khan denied help to the Neemuch brigade when it was led by Sidhara Singh and Hira Singh. You’re right actually. But even then did the Nimuch Brigade rescind its loyalty to Zafar? Ah! Obfuscation will only take you so far.

    Secondly, Bakht Khan had major differences with Muhammad Ghaus Khan ever since the latter arrived in Delhi. Him not supporting the Neemuch regiment was not some development because of only having a Hindu leader (although knowing a fundamentalist Wahabi like Bakht Khan, I wouldn’t be surprised if it was one of the reasons).

    ===========================================================

    POINTS LEFT UNANSWERED BY HHBB

    #Zafar prevented the rebellion from gaining a pan-Indian character

    HHBB said, “The rebellion could not assume a pan-Indian form precisely because of BSZ.” He then went on to say that,” the main reason for the Sikh fiefdoms zealously supporting the British was their bitter enmity with Mms.”

    When I pointed out that Nicholoson’s Punjab Movable Column had Pathans as well as Punjabi Muslims from the Punjab, along with Sikhs, HHBB had nothing to say.

    Also I’m still waiting for some proof, as in a quote, as to what made you think I’m an anti-Hindu bigot. Please do come up with something, my good man. :P

    ============================================================

    HHBB MAKES ME RETREAT :P

    HHBB said ://As soon as I shone the torch of scrutiny, you are forced to retreat with statements like
    1. “Tipu’s reign isn’t what I’m looking for as of now.
    2. “not my intention to somehow “defend” the actions of Aurangzeb.
    3. “Could anything suggest Muslim pluralism, to you (without any proof of what constitutes Mm pluralism in the present world to ‘you’)!
    4. “There was enmity, but the “enmity” wasn’t watertight,
    When I say “Islamic rule wasn’t all bad” I still believe condition were pretty bad, but
    5. A”nd I agree that the Mughals were not universally respected, but it does prove that they were not universally hated.//

    Now somehow, you think that not taking an extreme view is a sign of retreat, of weakness.

    Hmmm. Lets take the Mughals example shall we? Do I have to either accept that the Mughals were universally respected or universally hated?

    Can’t I not choose either ? Can’t I chose my view based on facts rather than having to confirm to some ideology?

    Actually, I don’t blame you for not getting this point. After all, to you, not taking an extreme view is somehow a fault.

    You have also said, “So much about the theory that it was a golden period of unblemished Hu-Mm amity, with all previous grievances forgotten.”

    Again I never said that all was hunky-dory between the two religions during the revolt. I can again challenge you to quote any of my statements, but then most probably you’ll just ignore this statement.

    =============================================================

    THE BLACK-AND-WHITE CONUNDRUM

    Towards the end of your 4th point you said, “I assure you, the di-chrome scenario is not reality. It is not even your ‘imagination’. It is your ‘manufacture’. Without it, you have no point at all, so your insistence to cling to this.”

    Hmmm. You are actually right. If you do not have a black-and-white view of history then I have no argument at all. You’re absolutely right. Let me explain.

    But before I explain, let me allow you to quote a few words of yours.

    1. When I said that India consists of 85% Hindus you disagreed saying that those 85% were not “truly Hindu”. In that same post you also said that “Stark and rank cowardice”, among other things, were characteristics of those 85%.

    2. “Which country in the world tolerates people who have brutalised them for over 1,300 years with no recrimination or retaliation?”

    So in you view, all Muslim rulers have done is “brutalized” the populace and all the Hindu subjects have done is suffered with no “recrimination or retaliation”

    3. “We *should* have been as secular as Pakistan and Bangladesh, where a 35% pre-partition population has plumetted to 0.6% in Pak”

    Expressing a desire to emulate the mass genocides that have taken place in Pakistan against religious minorities.

    4. “At no level do I see any urge of solidarity, or promotion of nation building on their (the muslims) part. At best I see stark apathy to India, not even a trace of gratitude for wresting a nation, massacring Hs & Ss from there, and then obstinately refusing to leave as any decent human being would. At worst I see seething discontent, dangerous indoctrination in the sprawling madrasahs, and a contrived population explosion.”

    “Im is about blutlust(sic). About nihilism. While there are Hs, they will create justifications for destroying Hs. Then when the last H is murdered, they will immediately invent reasons for wiping out Buddhists. Then Jews. Then Xtians. Ultimately, when the non-M world reverberates in the silence of the dead, the Ms will then start slaughtering each other.”

    These two quotes, I guess, sum up your “balanced” view of Islam.
    ————————-
    I think the above quotes make it quite clear as to why I think you have a black-and-white view of the world and history for that matter.

    When you feel that cowardice is the function of the religion you follow or that a certain religion is about “Nihilism” or all that Islam has done for 1,300 years on the sub-continent is to brutalise the populace, then you surely can’t blame me for accusing you off taking a one-sided view of everything driven by passion rather than cold logic.

    But then if you do want to change your mode of thinking; if you do want to change the way you look at Indian history from one in which one religion is always the aggressor to a more balanced one, then trust me, I for one would be glad.

    So to come back, to where I started this point, if you do not have a black-and-white view of history, I actually do have no argument.

    If, like me, you think Indian history is a complex mosaic and every action has a multiplicity of drivers behind it, rather than blaming one religion or painting only one religion or its followers in black then why in the world should I disagree with you?
    ===========================================================
    HHBB MELTS…A BIT

    HHBB says:”Gosh. Your comment (admission)(10 aurangzebs : 1 dara shikoh) goes far beyond what I have been saying all alone.
    Actually, I have a better view of Ms than that. I don’t believe that for every 10 brutal Ms there is one good one. I believe that there are a huge number of good Ms out there. However,”

    I think that’s really heartening, it really is. If somehow you claim to be more secular than I am, I really have no problem. Keep it up my man.
    ============================================================

    CUCKOOO…
    The ultra-right wing kook, after you get past all the vitriol is basically a very funny guy. I mean we can have a look at any of the kooks up on display in our country now.

    And in the middle of all these hectic parleys about troop compositions etc one para really caught me off guard. Here it is:

    “. The penny dropped. Saul of Tarsus saw the light. The dove descended. The Bodhi tree bloomed. I read your feeble examples ‘proving’ Hu-Mm amity through the ages. Tipu Sultan. BSZ. Ranjit Singh’s minister. These are straw figures which can be blown away by a single huff and puff of historical inspection. As soon as I shone the torch of scrutiny, you are forced to retreat with statements like

    :D :D

    “…as I shone the torch of scrutiny…” !!!

    Man, I was ROTFL. Of course there was more to come, not addressed to me though.

    In a reply to a fawning Rishi, HHBB saya, “You & I & yourfan2 & Hujur et all may desperately try to stem the rot at considerable *personal risk*, *expense* and investment of *time* and *resource*.”

    :P :P :P

    I’m really sorry to prick you balloon and bring you down to earth but all you are doing is having a small little debate on the comments section of a weblog with a 22 year old whose just cleared his engineering course. I’m sorry to disappoint but that’s the truth, man. :P

  266. I actually missed out on a point. My apologies.

    HHBB describes his M.O. to Rishi in which one thing caught my notice. Here it is:

    “I had also studied sites from:

    – Anti-Hu Communist historians (Amaresh Mishra)
    – Indian Mm historians (Irfan Habib, Mahmood Farooqui)…

    HHBB silos Irfan Habib as an Indian Muslim Historian. To top that he also has another category for communist historians (or as he calls it: “anti-Hindu communist historians”!).

    OMG! Pleased do explain how in the world do you classify Habib as a “Muslim historian” (whatever that means) and not a Marxist one!

    Really now, this is getting farcical, utterly ridiculous and to top it all HHBB says before this,” I found Hades poorly informed observations so juvenile and amusing.”

    Lol.

  267. Hades wrote:
    “I’m really sorry to prick you balloon and bring you down to earth but all you are doing is having a small little debate on the comments section of a weblog with a 22 year old whose just cleared his engineering course”.

    Rishi’s response:

    It shows Hades. :)

    But that does not mean that you have to remain ignorant and self deluded. You are the future as well.

  268. //It shows Hades//

    A$$ in you mean my comments show I’ve had an engineering education?

    Lol :P

    I’m sorry, man, but i just couldn’t resist the A$$ jibe! I know ive done it too death, but as I said I couldn’t resist.

  269. GB great write up..never commented earlier but have been following your blog for quite sometime..this time though couldnt stop myself from commenting..this debate was probably the best about the issue that could possibly be and is a real eye opener..I have been watching the space from the day you posted on this issue and was following through the comments..

    HHBB – you are good man..look forward to hearing from you more often..think there is still some unfinished business left with HADES..get back :)

  270. @ RB : Would like to read more posts from you. ur website please???

    No website. Do you think I should maintain one? I have very little time my friend, but will keep your kind words in mind.

    @ Anshul : Thanks. You do not have to hold my charan. :-) Please hold my hand as we try and convince the blind and semi-blind to open their eyes a bit wider and see the true horror engulfing us.

    Biswajit : Thanks. I have written up a reply for Hades in the night, and post a comment of thanks to you before I paste it in below.

  271. Hi Hades,

    Some interesting comments from you. I only read them today, & as I am off early tomorrow [now today :-( ] on a business trip, I can only provide partially detailed narrative now.

    If you require more details & source refs, please mention, & I will oblige on return. As this is a quick response based on memory alone, feel free to corroborate & correct as necessary.

    Again, I will respond in 5 comments as follows :

    Point 1 : The Sepoys who requested BSZ to assume leadership were Mm. This is an important point.

    Point 2 : Your point was ‘since Sepoys accepted BSZ as leader, Mms could not have brutalized Hus so intensely’. Why I totally disagree

    Point 3 : You mentioned “Sikhs did not join in the conflict as they hated the Purbeas, and not because of antipathy to the Mughals (as I had mentioned). As proof, there were Skhs and Ms in Punjab regiments” – The jury is still out on why the Sikhs abstained. The banded about answer (Skh-Purbea hatred) had a huge element of British propaganda.

    Point 4 : You said “Irfan Habib is not a Mm historian”. He is a Muslim, and a historian. His indepth knowledge of Urdu is far more valuable in understanding indigenous Urdu sources of the Sepoy rebellion than his non-Mm counterparts. What’s so difficult to understand here?

    Point 5 : Wrt my comment to Rishi about us spending significant time, resource and personal safety in our cause, you replied “I’m sorry to prick you balloon but all you are doing is having a small little debate with a 22 year old”.

    Hmm. You are assuming that my ‘time, safety and money’ referred to this comical debate with you. You are being very presumptuous. I assure you, it does not. I am treating this parley with you with amusement.

    Conclusion and point 6 : The overall point remains unaltered. Ms have, and continue to brutalise Hs for 1,300 years.

    Recent events of mass terrorist murder over the last 2 days are merely a continuous narrative in the overall saga of Im violently ousting the remaining vestiges of Hu culture.

    Nothing less.

  272. Your point 1 : Sepoys who requested BSZ to assume leadership were definitely Hu
    =============================================================
    You are laboring on about “while cavalrymen were Mm, most infantry Sepoys were Hu”, so HHBB’s comments referring to Mm origin of 3rd Bengal cavalry (3BC) are irrelevant.

    Go back. Read again. You will notice that the genesis of this comment-branch was my query to you “How do you know most of the Sepoys WHO HAD REQUESTED THIS (i.e requested BSZ to accept leadership) were Hu?”.

    This branch was clearly kicked off by quest of the religious identity of the REQUESTING Sepoys. You have missed this many times, but you definitely shouldn’t. You are an adult.

    You need to be far more particular about issues like this.

    1A : Sepoys who requested BSZ ‘were’ Mm
    ========================================
    It is a fact that the Sepoys who had requested BSZ were members of 3rd Bengal Cavalry (3BC). There is the famous eye-account witness of them riding up in the morning of the 11 May outside BSZ’s chambers and roaring requests for him to join.

    The infantry regiments of Meerut would require another day to bridge the 36 mile difference between Delhi and Meerut, and are unlikely to reach Delhi in sizeable numbers before 12 May. A small advance guard may have arrived, and some may have accompanied cavalry units as ancillaries to cut telegraph wires (Jeevanlal’s account mentions there were a few foot-soldiers in Delhi on the 12th), but it would be impossible for the bulk of infantry forces to arrive.

    By the time of the arrival of the infantry, BSZ would have already accepted (he accepted after prevaricating for one day on the 12th). I am sure the arriving Hu Sepoys would have no reservation at all in accepting the fait accompli, but the point is that BSZ’s overlordship was not necessarily a burning desire at the forefront of every Hu Sepoy’s mind.

    1B : Sepoys stationed at Delhi
    ===============================
    There are two accounts of the revolt of the units stationed outside Delhi. These units rebelled after they were ordered to mow down fellow Sepoy-brothers in 3BC.

    The first theory says the rebellion among them was en-masse and complete at this stage.

    The second accounts say that a small proportion rebelled and engaged in the execution of their officers. The bulk however, wandered around Delhi deciding on their course of action. Their resolve was steeled after the armory was blown up, causing immense loss of life to civilians. It is at this stage they fully threw their lot in with the rebels.

    So their acceptance of BSZ was derivative if not academic, and their prime otivation was siding with 3BC. The 3BC who had requested BSZ.

    1C : Command structure of Sepoys
    ================================
    You will also need to consider the command structure of the rebelling Sepoy units. In the absence of the clearly outlined hierarchy they were accustomed to after their British officers were dispatched, leadership is highly likely to automatically divert to the upper echelons in the structure, which would be the leaders of the cavalry.

  273. Point 2 : Hades’ wider point : “Acceptance of BSZs overlordship by the Sepoys is proof of Hu-Mm amity, and thus proof that Mms did not treat Hs with relentless brutality”
    =============================================================

    I do not accept your hypothesis for 3 reasons

    1. Sepoys are hardly a yardstick to measure the state of Hu / Indian patriotism and Hu victimhood by. If anything, they were fighting for a foreign power against their own countrymen for the last 100 years. Any arrangement of convenience by them is hardly a reflection of Hu victimhood.

    2. The character of BSZ does stand out as a testament of the nobler and more assimilative aspects of Sufi Im. His mother was a Rajput princess. He visited dargahs & pirs far more than traditional mosques. He would even celebrate Holi with his queens. However, a liberal and powerless leader, occupying a nominal post at the very dusk of a fading Imc civilization, does in NO WAY even come close to ameliorating the horrific massacres perpetrated by Imc tyrants on their hapless Hu subjects when these rulers DID occupy positions of power.

    Incidentally, orthodox Ms in Delhi, especially Shah Waliullah’s followers (the fanatic who Iqbal called ‘the greatest intellectual of Ismc India), seethed at fury at BSZ’s tolerance and castigated him publicly for his liberalism.

    So? So even at the late stage of the Mughal civilization, when their power was fading away in to the dusk of romance and legend, the hatred that traditional Im bore towards Hm was still strong.

    3. If you are trying to claim that’s Hus, like any other community in the world, are likely to rail at their persecutors, you are sadly and very grossly mistaken.

    Even at a time when the tyrannical Aurangzeb was persecuting his Hu subjects mercilessly (or do you not accept even the fact that Aurangzeb was a persecutor ?), he could merrily count upon the support of a vast array of Rajput princes to fight for him ‘against’ nationalists like Shivaji and Chatrasal, who were battling to preserve Hu life and dignity

    I think the crème de la crème is the fact that the Naga Sannyasins, fierce Hu sadhus, fought on the side of Abdali in 1761 (Panipat III) against fellow Hu Marathas, well knowing that Abdali would wreak havoc upon traditional Hu pilgrimages like Brindabon & Mothura !!!

    Thus your theory that “Ms could not persecute Hus with the level of venom I propose” as “Hus did not express the warranted level of antagonism”, is misplaced.

  274. Point 3 : Sikhs did not join in the conflict as they hated the Purbeas, and not because of antipathy to the Mughals. As proof, there were Skhs and Ms in Punjab regiments
    ==========================================================

    3A : Hades states that Sikhs did not join in the rebellion as they hated the Purbeas, and not primarily because of antipathy to the Mughals.
    ===========================================================

    You may be surprised to know, that the reason for “Sikhs not joining the rebellion because they hated the Purbeas” was a theory heavily used in propaganda by the then British recruiters.

    There is only one Indian 19th century source I have found that talks about a bitter aftertaste of animosity between the Sikhs and Purbeas. I am looking for further regional sources …. if you are aware of any, please cite and I will be happy to accept this hypothesis as strengthened.

    The British used a number of tactics to recruit Skhs in to their fold once they realised traditional Hu upper class military loyalty could no longer be relied upon. Included among this propaganda was :

    – Skh ~ Purbea animosity arising from the latter’s despoilment of the Punjab (to turn Skhs away from the now rebelling Sepoys)

    – Anglo ~ Skh amity as a tool to remove the Mm king at the center (as the Mughals were now British foes). In fact, there were a number of local legends banded around of how Anglo-Sikh concerted action would achieve ‘removal of the hated Mm king at the centre’. These were touted as ancient Sikh legends, and used heavily in propaganda by British recruiters.

    One scholar (I think A. Chatterjee) was looking in to the genesis of such myths. On my return, I will try getting Chatterjee’s (?) details for you.

    Skh antipathy did not involve a surge of revulsion against the Sepoys. In fact a substantial portion of the new recruits hailed from the CIS-Sutlej region, where loyalty to Ranjit Singh & the Khalsa was thinner, even during the Anglo-Sikh wars.

    Thinking logically, it would be surprising for the Skhs to be angry against the Purbeas who wrested their lands FOR the British, and yet overflow in loyalty to the British who were the prime beneficiary of the mischief. Further, the horror inflicted by the Afghans, with all the attendant Ghallugharas, would be relatively fresh in Skh minds, as they occurred hardly 80 years ago.

    As such, the reason for the Skhs refraining from the rebellion is not certain, and a lot more research needs to be done in to this. That is why I said ‘ONE’ of the theories suggests Skh animosity of the Mm overlord as the prime reason.

    I have noted that you conveniently remove the ‘one of the theories suggests” from your criticism. This is not very honest.

    3B – You state that as proof of Skh-Mm amity, there were Skhs and Ms in Punjab regiments
    ===========================================================
    This point is not valid. Resentment of an Mm overlord (BSZ) does not translate to refusal to associate with other Mms (Mms in Punjab regiments).

    Further, even if there was animosity, what were the Skhs to do? Their lands had been overrun, their army had been disbanded, there were very few career paths left to martial peoples. If a condition of joining well paid British recruitment involved associating with erstwhile Mm enemies, there would be little option left but to comply.

    It is possible that Skhs & Mms within regiments maintained tacit segregation, as upper Caste Hus would have done with their lower caste brethren in ranks. The social and mental segregation would be there, in spite of concerted campaigning.

    I am not sure of this segregation, and neither am I saying it is a significant point. What I ‘am’ saying is “the assumption that Skhs and Mms in the same regiment implies bonhomie” is misplaced. It does not alter the fact that Ms have brutalized Hs for 1,300 years.

  275. Point 4 – Hades claims “IRFAN HABIB IS NOT A Mm HISTORIAN”
    =========================================================
    Hmmm. Is he not a Mm? Or is he not a historian?

    I cited Irfan Habib and Mahmud Faruqi as Mm historians, for their superior ability (compared to non-Mm counterparts) to be able to decipher Urdu records (e.g. Faruqi’s groundbreaking and painstaking work on deciphering the Urdu shikastah script has revealed a minefield of information on 1857 from the Delhiites perspective.

    Nothing more, nothing less.

    Why are you having to resort to irrelevant spectacles of sideshows like? Sideshows that you build up bombastically, only to disappoint the public with a fizzling damp squib?

    Some people will interpret it as a sign of desperation. Sigh.

  276. Point 5 : Wrt my comment to Rishi about us spending significant time, resource and personal safety in our cause, Hades replied “I’m really sorry to prick you balloon and bring you down to earth but all you are doing is having a small little debate on the comments section of a weblog with a 22 year old whose just cleared his engineering course”.
    =========================================================

    You are truly amazing, Hades. One in a million. Only a Hades, can reach conclusions that a Hades reaches.

    You are assuming that my comment on ‘expenditure of time, safety and money’ refers to this comical debate with you. It is apparent you are treating this comment-parley with extreme seriousness, but I assure you, this is like a joke to me. It is also apparent that you have not done anything tangible to achieve your secular aim, and thus cannot envisage others having done so.

    FYI, there is a significant amount of pro-Hu charitable activities I used to engage in. ‘By’ your age, I had already actively participated in many VHP projects.

    ‘At’ your age, before I got married a few years later, there was a buzz about the country wrapped around 9/11, and it was an ideal opportunity for us to try and make people appreciate the true threat. I used to spend 110% of my non-work hours in that cause.

    Also, wrt danger, note that one of my actively pro-Hu friends was murdered, and two are missing since. The former was thrown off the 7th floor of a flat complex he was building in Salt Lake, Kol. His name was Jayanta, and he had a hardware store in Sector-I, Salt Lake …. no further details will be given.

    Do you understand what I mean by peril? Do you have any idea of the horror of Imc terrorism you are dealing with? Or do you see a shutter being dented in Indore and mistake that as a riot? Lol. :-)

    Are you satisfied that I have answered all your queries, or do you have more? I conclude in the next comment.

  277. 6 – CONCLUSION – Ms HAVE brutalized Hus for 1,300 years, and continue to do so
    ============================================================
    Now for the main comment which sparked off this train of comments. Has this been affected even by an iota by the discussion? I still maintain that Ms have brutalized Hus for 13 centuries, and are continuing to do so.

    The pages of history are dripping with blood at the innumerable massacres committed in the Imc past. Qasim, Ghazni, Ghor, Aibak, Balban, Khilji, Malik Kafur, Feroze Shah Tughlaq, Timurlane, Babur, Aurangzeb, Abdali … the list is endless. Each regent has tales of incomparable hatred of Hus, and massacres of defenceless Hu subjects.

    The issue is, what “frequency of brutality” are you willing to tolerate? If you are looking for 100% of the kings practising 100% Hu-slaughter 100% of the time over 100% of their kingdoms, you will never find it. Even the Ensatzgruppen could not sustain such a tempo.

    However, if at every 30 years or so, we see important and powerful kings engaging in blutlust, or a massacre of defenseless foes, or issuing ‘royal pronouncements’ for decapitated heads of Brahmins, etc etc etc …. what are we to conclude?

    And the terror continues today. Under pseudo-secular logic, 1947 was supposed to have resolved the Hu-Mm hatred once and for all. Under the logic of Rishi / Hujur & me, 1947 was just an emboldened paragraph in the endless, continuous, saga of Im violently ousting the remaining vestiges of Hu culture.

    Last three days. Bangalore. Ahmedabad. Gaza. Iraq.

    Who is being proved right?

  278. HHBB wrote:
    “If you are looking for 100% of the (Muslim)kings practising 100% Hu-slaughter 100% of the time over 100% of their kingdoms,you will never find it. Even the Ensatzgruppen could not sustain such a tempo.

    Rishi’s resp:

    Very well said. Jihadi terrorism is as much a physical war of attrition, as it is a psychological one. But it is just a means to an end (and everyone must understand that), the end being the complete conversion or extermiantion of the non-Islamic world.

    We Hindus have already lost 70% of our forefathers to Islam. The ideology and the goals are the same, only the technology has changed.

    Theoritically atleast, most of us should be able to understand the generational nature of this.

    Acting upon that would be the next step.

  279. From the earlier discussion on the extension of ‘Haj’ type subsidy to others

    http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index.php?option=com_content&id=11911&task=view&issueid=64&Itemid=1

    It’s a call that the Andhra Pradesh Government has finally honoured. A pilgrimage to the Holy Land of Bethlehem has been made easy for the Christians in the state.

    State Minority Welfare Minister Mohammed Ali Shabbir says, “An exclusive financial corporation will fund and arrange the Christians’ visit to the holy shrines. It’s on the lines of the arrangements made for Muslims going on the Haj pilgrimage to Mecca.”

    For this purpose, five Christian religious places have been identified with Jerusalem as the principal stopover. The week-long pilgrimage will have at least 50-100 pilgrims.

    ****
    Damn, this secularism is good stuff :)

  280. @Arnie- “Damn, this secularism is good stuff.”
    It certainly is. :)

    @HHBB- I dont know in which part of the world you are right now, but let me tell you that you have surpassed yourself in this comment thread. This is not banter, but scholarly work of the highest order. Text from your comments should be agglomerated and finally be published in book form. There is a need for such books in every library worth its salt in the world for their ‘pseudosecular studies’ section. The need is especially acute for our country, where the dark clouds of pseudosecularism have cast a menacing gloom on every inch of our land. Each and every event like Bangalore and Ahmedabad are recurring proofs of your conjectures. If Rishi is a modern-day philosopher, then you are high priest of all prescient and clairvoyant men. That is simply because you are a man much ahead of his time.

    In fact your recent comments have been so moving that it made me visualize a 4 x 100 m race. Rishi was first off the blocks and compelled the world took notice. He passed on the baton to the ever faithful Hujur who in turn passed it on to the hard-working and persevering Sunil. The race was still tight then. But it became a no-contest once you got the baton. You ran like it was nobody’s business and actually trailed the rival team by just a bit – it happens when you take almost a circumference length lead on a circular track:) – and still reached the finish line first, by taking the lead again. Olympic athletes in Beijing will motivate themselves by your ‘run’ just before they get off the starting blocks, as they await the gun. In the meanwhile, we await another blast.

  281. @Arnie- “Damn, this secularism is good stuff.”
    It certainly is. :)
    @HHBB- I dont know in which part of the world you are right now, but let me tell you that you have surpassed yourself in this comment thread. This is not banter, but scholarly work of the highest order. Text from your comments should be agglomerated and finally be published in book form. There is a need for such books in every library worth its salt in the world for their ‘pseudosecular studies’ section. The need is especially acute for our country, where the dark clouds of pseudosecularism have cast a menacing gloom on every inch of our land. Each and every event like Bangalore and Ahmedabad are recurring proofs of your conjectures. If Rishi is a modern-day philosopher, then you are high priest of all prescient and clairvoyant men. That is simply because you are a man much ahead of his time.

    In fact your recent comments have been so moving that it made me visualize a 4 x 100 m race. Rishi was first off the blocks and compelled the world took notice. He passed on the baton to the ever faithful Hujur who in turn passed it on to the hard-working and persevering Sunil. The race was still tight then. But it became a no-contest once you got the baton. You ran like it was nobody’s business and actually trailed the rival team by just a bit – it happens when you take almost a circumference length lead on a circular track:) – and still reached the finish line first, by taking the lead again. Olympic athletes in Beijing will motivate themselves by your ‘run’ just before they get off the starting blocks, as they await the gun. In the meanwhile, we await another blast.

  282. EMC3 fantasized: “… Slowly they increase their strength and become the Hindu Sleeper cells”

    If wishes were wings, pigs could fly. Just look around you, my friend. :D

    The Hindu Sleeper cells are always asleep and losing the population (demographic) battle in every nook and corner of India.

    The Fifth Column in India, on the other hand, never sleeps. It increases its headcount day-by-day and gives Hindus sleepless nights.

    Sleep well. Or Arise and Awake. The choice is yours.

  283. Pingback: Religionism/nationalism « News you can’t use !

  284. Arnab (the greatbong)
    The Jammu episode, as you have correctly pointed out, might just turn out to be a further consolidation of Islamic forces and there sympathisers in the region, while the Hindus in India are internalizing the ethnic cleansing of Pandits in Kashmir as just another episode along the lines of Bangladesh and Pakistan.

    But on the contrary it might be the begining of a Hindu resurgance, a Hindu mass movement.

    Check out the slide show to the right of http://www.factusa.org depicting how Hindus in Jammu are leading the struggle against Islam.

  285. Junaid:
    You lie, my brother.

    There have been multiple Jihadi attacks on Amarnath pilgrims in the past and many pilgrims have been killed and wounded over the years.

    Your reference to the Hindus of Jammu as “non-entities”, speaks a lot about you and your co-religionists approach towards humamity in general and Hindus in particular.

    Keep your hyperbole to yourself, for you can be responded to, in the same manner.

  286. Rishi.

    In the past..when and by whom. Facts please.

    I never referred to Hindus of jammu, you did, wonder who is communal.

    And very conveniently you skipped commenting on Indian attrocities. If I lie then you pose.

  287. Hello Junaid,

    Your points.

    1. There is no proof of attacks on pilgrims of the Amarnath Yatra.

    2.You did not say that Hindus of jammu are non entities.

    My response:

    1. Please read posts by Hujur which describe in graphic detail the attacks that the yatris have been at the receiving end of by the “upholders of kashmiriyat”.

    2.Blatant Lie my brother – On your blog you said “Indian Security Forces, who are reffered to as dogs in Kashmir can exercise no control over the non-entities blocking the highway “. According to media reports the hindus and Sikhs of jammu tried to blocking the highway. So when you call people blocking the highway non entities who else are you referring to??????Its funny how all upholders of kashmiriyat speak in the same forked tongue be it mufti memsahib or yaseen mallik or mirwaiz or lone or YOU.

    Some other gems of Kashmiriyat that I found in your post –

    1. “I begin by saying, Kashmir is special, not because it ought to enjoy special status, but it will bleed to rise. It will defy oppression to hoist the flag of grit.” – So any state that entertains notions of its “grit” should ethnically cleanse its minorities, support terrorists, impose the religion of the majority community and abuse/insult the country which provides it with succour???? Maulana Geelani has taught you well.

    2. “It is so weak a country that it needs 7 lakh troops to martial a territory, which it claims to be its integral part.” – Junaid, in response, “Is islam so weak a religion that giving 100 acres of land to the Shrine board for temporary structures will dilute the “muslim character” of the valley?”

    3.”Indian Security Forces, who are reffered to as dogs in Kashmir”

    4. “A 30-40 day unrest in Jammu results in the death of 4 policemen and 5 civilians, while as a couple of days of genuine protest in the Kashmir Valley sees 20 people attaining matyrdom” – The protest in jammu is an unrest while a violent uprising in the valley is “genuine protest”. The lives lost in Jammu are deaths while those dead in Kashmir are martyrs – your kashmiriyat is slipping Junaid bhai.

    5. “And as far as Amarnath Yatra is concerned over which Jammuites whimper, there has not been a single untoward instance involving a Yatri.” – Jammuites whimper???? Do you watch TV(PTV does not count). The second part is a blatant lie.

    6.”Keep in mind that if Kashmiris want, they will not spare a single Yatri, but we are not mass murderers like Indian authorites” – If as you claim “7 lakh” security forces had been commiting mass murder, there would not be any kashmiris left by now. This is clearly not true. While Kashmiri terrorists have ethnically cleansed the valley of 4 lakh pundits. Who is a mass murderer now Junaid Miyan.

    Regards,

    Sunil.

  288. Brother Junaid:
    To quote your blog
    “Indian Security Forces, who are reffered to as dogs in Kashmir can exercise no control over the non-entities blocking the highway but can…

    Rishi’s response
    Non-entities..hmmm..did u say the Hindus of Jammu are?
    Humble pie…u should eat…apple pie it could be…now that u have a excess of it.

    As for the regular attack on Amarnath pilgrims by Jihadis, I can recall 3 attacks right off the bat

    August 1, 2000
    Jihadis murdered 22 Hindu pilgrims

    July 20, 2001
    Jihadis kill 13 Hindu pilgrims near Sheshnag

    August 5, 2002
    8 Hindu pilgrims butchered.
    ————————————–

    The Indian army is one of the most disciplined armies in the whole world. Inspite of facing a medium-intensity Jihad with its own terretories in Kashmir, India has shown considerable restraint. At no point of time have Indian security forces escalated their response Jihadis, both tactically and logistically, except barring Kargil.

    Thank your hair that you and your current co-religionists have not faced retribution in the same proportion that other sovereign nations in the world have meted out to their internal separatist jihadi movements.

    If anybody should be leading the struggle for Amarnath, it should be you, for you (or the converted Hindu in you) are the beholder of Kashmir’s 5000 year old Hindu heritage.

  289. Both Sunil and Rishi

    1. 2 lakh kashmiris have died over the past 20 years. But it is still a jehadi violent uprising. Great .

    2. You would never understand what freedom is. How did it feel when Jaliawala Bagh happened. Unfortunately the ends justify the means. And all this will be termed as Jihadi movement until we attain freedom.

    3. All these instances till 2002 were at a time when you had allowed Pakistan to interfere. What I see clearly is that now people of Kashmir are not using guns for their cause. Pakistan is totally out of the frame.

    4. As being a converted Hindu I prefer myself to be called as a reverted Muslim.

  290. @ Junaid:
    Really….WE had allowed Paistan to interfere…WE?
    Yeah….we also airdropped Syed Salahuddin into Muzaffarabad.

    As for your point 4….that exactly my friend is the problem here.

    The day you take pride in YOUR great Hindu heritage of Kashmir, dear Junaid,, Kashmir will be a heaven on earth……..AGAIN.

  291. @ Junaid,

    Just curious. Do you really think that India will tolerate another independent islamo-fascistic state in its neighbourhood (even under the garb of secularism)?

    You do realise that India of 2007 is a different beast to the India of 1947, and the world at large has lost its appetite of the never-ending sense of entitlement and grieviances nurtured by the islamists?

    I mean seriously – you must be grossly underestimating the Indian resolve to hold on to legitimate territory to think that a few bomb blasts, murders of women and children and an ocassional march towards Muzaffarabad would shake the Indian state and hand you freedom.

    It is funny that after the 2005 earthquake the POK residents wanted to move to Indian Kashmir to obtain the generosity of the Indian government. The ‘Indian’ kashmiri muslim appears to want to do the opposite. I guess this is the ‘budzaat kashmiri’ the mughals warned us about. But remember – if you bite the hand that feeds you, you would be forced to lick the boots that kick you – as many mohajirs in pakistan are finding out.

  292. Hello Junaid,

    You said

    1.2 lakh kashmiris have died over the past 20 years. But it is still a jehadi violent uprising. Great . – Where is this number taken from Junaid Miyan, PTV???? Please give sources for the numbers you throw, but then since you are dripping with the spirit of kashmiriyat, your sense of entitlement in asking other people for data while providing none yourself is understandable. By the way who started the killing in the valley???? Who took arms training from pakistan and ethnically cleansed the Pandits??? Who shouted “Asi Gachi pakistan, bata ros te batanev san”???? Now that Kashmiris are suffering at the hands of the monster they created in the first place, you have started caring for human rights.

    2. You would never understand what freedom is. How did it feel when Jaliawala Bagh happened. Unfortunately the ends justify the means. And all this will be termed as Jihadi movement until we attain freedom. – We understand what freedom is and also understand the right of every individual to enjoy it. But with freedom comes responsibility, something that the Kashmiris (and people like you) have failed to understand. By comparing Kashmir with an enslaved India you have betrayed a perverted understanding of “Freedom”, which considering your religion is not surprising.

    3. All these instances till 2002 were at a time when you had allowed Pakistan to interfere. What I see clearly is that now people of Kashmir are not using guns for their cause. Pakistan is totally out of the frame. – Really??? Kashmiris are waving pakistani flags and marching towards the LOC in an attempt to cross it and you think Pakistan is totally out of the frame. As an aside who brought Pakistan in to the frame in the first place??? Look in the mirror Junaid Miyan.

    4. As being a converted Hindu I prefer myself to be called as a reverted Muslim. – As Hinduism predates Islam you can logically not revert to it. But then to expect logic from you is akin to expecting Osama bin laden to adopt Gandhian Non Violence.

    Regards,

    Sunil.

  293. @Rishi

    I mean, when you have people disgruntled, they look for sympathy and support. The root cause was alienation towards India and not liking for Pakistan. And anyways I prefer independence anyday.

    As regards to freedom, I am not bothered about whats happening in Pakistan, Bangladesh or Afghanistan. I dont club situations like you. You just want to find a common thread to justify your argument.

    @Arnie

    It is not a question of whether India would be tolerant or not, It is about basic human right of living.

    I dont see the independent struggle as an Islamist one, you people percieve it like that to demean it.

    I have never commented about Pakistan, both India and Pakistan are culprints for me. I dont compare enemies. There is only one choice of being independent.

    @Sunil

    As regards to your first point, I totally agree that there were elements who tried to derail the independence movement and killed Pandits, I feel guilty because of that but things have changed. Look at welcome Pandit families got when they returned early this year.

    Sense of responsibility. I think you are being hypothetically judgemental. I see no difference between the two situations.

    I dont support the fact that we wave Pakistani flags, rather they should be Kashmiri flags. And even if people are waving Pakistani flags, they are not being instigated by Pakistan, as was the case before. Hence the point of non-interference of Pakistan right now.

    @Everybody

    I dont want the discussion to turn religious. I have never seen the Kashmir struggle as an Islamist movement or an anti-Hindu one.

  294. Junaid wrote:

    @Everybody
    I dont want the discussion to turn religious. I have never seen the Kashmir struggle as an Islamist movement or an anti-Hindu one.

    Rishi’s response:
    Kashmir struggle is not a Islamist movement…hahahaha…nice
    900 choohe khake billi Hajj ko chali.

    To rephrase Samuel Johnson (aptly befitting India’s context)
    “Pseudo-secularism is the last resort of a scoundrel”.

  295. “I dont want the discussion to turn religious. I have never seen the Kashmir struggle as an Islamist movement or an anti-Hindu one.”
    .
    Please tell me that was a lame attempt at a joke and that you were kidding. Not a Islamist movement and not anti-Hindu, you say? And the ethnic cleansing of Pandits from the valley? But then, Hindus are non-entities and like good Dhimmis, our voices/views should not count, not even in our own land, right? You say Pandit families were given welcome this year — really?? I would like to know how many moved back — and let’s, for the moment assume that they’re indeed welcome, why the opposition to 40 hectares of land then? Surely, that can’t be too much to ask of a generous and ‘Kashmiriyat se bhari’ populace, which, even welcomes Pandits back?
    .
    And I’m still to see you admitting that Amarnath Yatra has been targetted repeatedly in the past — I think you called it a ‘lie’ some posts above. ‘Freedom struggle’ (as you call it) should have no business targetting a religious yatra, should it?
    .
    As for this, “And all this will be termed as Jihadi movement until we attain freedom.” — a minor correction, it’ll ALWAYS be called a jihadi movement because that’s what it is and ‘freedom’ (as you define it) — dream on, mate!

  296. @ anonymous

    The jem that Junaid gave was –

    “India got Pakistan invovled in Kashmir’s struggle”.

    BTW, Junaid, brother… which part of Kashmir do you belong to?
    Which lineage of Kashmiri Pandit’s (ie, Koul , Raina, etc) were your forefathers converted into Islam from?

  297. Hello Junaid,

    1. How many pandit families have been welcomed back in to Kashmir??? Where did you get this gem from (surely not PTV). By the way I am still waiting for you to verify the 2 lakh dead kashmiris diatribe. KP leaders were killed in broad daylight, their women were dishonoured, Mosques blared warnings of impending massacre and you try to dismiss it as an attempt to derail the independence movement??? IT WAS THE CRUX OF YOUR SO CALLED INDEPENDENCE MOVEMENT.

    2.The british were ethnically alien who treated India as a colony and abused it for their economic well being. They acquired hegemony over the subcontinent through a combination of war, deceit and land grabbing. The rights and freedom of Indians under the british were constitutionally inferior to those of europeans. – The people of india are not ethnically alien to the kashmiris and have provided financial succor to them for decades. The Kashmiris have not been abused in any way for the economic benefit of other states, if anything it has been the other way round. Kashmir LEGALLY CEDED to india and was not occupied or conquered against the wishes of its people (Guess what, PoK was). The rights and freedom of Kashmiris is greater than any other Indian and protected by article 370. During the freedom struggle Indians did not ethnically cleanse the minorities from their states on religious grounds and then term their fight as a freedom struggle Like the Kashmiris have done (Guess what, the pakistanis did it). Therefore your attempt to compare the two betrays the perverted notions of freedom (laced with a sense of entitlement because of being Muslim)that you and your friends in the Valley entertain.

    3. Your leaders in kashmir called the amarnath land transfer deal an attempt to alter the MUSLIM Character of the Valley, you termed Hindus of Jammu non entities, you accused them of whimpering, you insulted those who gave up their lives for the cause of equality and praised those who promoted a pro pakistan Islamofascist agenda in the valley by calling them martyrs, you called Indian security forces dogs. And now you have the GALL to say that you are not promoting a religious or anti hindu agenda!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    This is exactly the kind of janus faced attempt to usurp other people’s rights while professing victimhood that has lead the rising in Jammu.

    Regards,

    Sunil

  298. @Sunil: well said!!
    from what i have seen it’d be some time before u get a reply..and that too would be some crappy rhetoric and/or more “secular” bullshit.
    what happened/is happening in jammu is a result of victimising Hindus and taking them for granted.And if the present state of pseudo-secular minority appeasement’s going to continue,I think more Jammus are gonna happen.it’s all about pushing people to the edge..

    as for Islamists,I wish they had the guts to own up to their agenda(s) and activities.The done-to-death(read martyrdom) practice of applying a veneer of “secularism” /”brotherhood”/”struggle against oppression” and in this case “Kashmiriyat” over all sorts of venomous,nefarious ideologies and the justification of their implementation basically shows these jerks as cowards and nothing else.
    It’d do a lot of people a whole lot of good.

  299. Junaid,

    Please feel free to read and critique this ONLINE BOOK:

    CONVERTED KASHMIR: Memorial of Mistakes

    http://www.kashmir-information.com/ConvertedKashmir/

    The book traces the history of Kashmiris, who have for 5,000 years refused to surrender before the dreaded invaders, and are now holding the apron of foreigners and an alien belief system by snapping ties with their Hindu culture and Indian nationalism.

  300. @ Junaid,

    I think Sunil and others have clearly pointed out the hollowness of your assertions about independence being a ‘secular kashmiri’ agenda. Though I would still like to know what you mean by this:

    “It is not a question of whether India would be tolerant or not, It is about basic human right of living.”

    So, are you arguing that the ‘Kashmiris’ started their demand for independence because they were being denied this ‘basic human right of living’? Can you provide any facts to support your claim?

    And then as a first step they decided to chase out other kashmiris who just happenned to be hindus? So need for an islamic kashmiri lebensraum?

  301. Also, adding on to Arnie’s questions, Junaid, can you please elaborate how/why/when were the Kashmiris denied their ‘basic human rights’ while people in Jammu and Ladakh were not? And, please correct me if I’m wrong but the residents of ‘Azad Kashmir’/Northern Areas on the other side don’t seem to enjoy too many rights, do they?

  302. Junaid bhai,

    By the way, did you watch the Beijing Olympics Opening Ceremony where the All-Male Saudi contingent marched?

    Quite appropriately, the country’s flag features the Shahada (“There is NO OTHER god but Allah and Muhammad is His prophet”) along with a sword

    Now, why would any intelligent human support the Arabisation of Kashmir and gradually turn it into another Saudi Arabia?

    Haven’t you seen how Arabisation of 50 countries in the world have turned them into living hells, for all the victims who live there (both Muslim and Kafir)?

    Then why do you still persist in your madness?

  303. @ all

    Am forwarding a message from a board member of Indo-American Kashmiri Forum(IAKF.ORG) and http://WWW.FACTUSA.ORG

    “I would like to express gratitude and thanks to the readers from greatbong.net, for helping raise over a thousand dollars in small online donations, in just five days. The amount collected will be forwarded to the families of those killed and wounded in the struggle against fundamentalist separatism in Kashmir”.

    -RT Pandit, Houston, Texas

  304. People..

    What I gather from your arguments, is that you associate everything with Islamization, which is a debatable topic in itself. Now I want to dissociate myself from all that and argue:

    1. Basic human right of living: In a broader sense, let us define it as economic prosperity. Over the last 60 years or so, the policy of Indian government has been to throw rather than share. It has resulted in a corrupt society who wait foe appeasements every now and then. But if you breed a society like this, you would invariably be not able to satisfy them. The policy should be an ‘inclusive’ one rather than a disinterested gesture.

    2. As far as ethnic cleansing is concerned, that is too harsh a term to use for the exodus. Playing a Devils advocate (I am not one :)) I can argue, was the Indian government so weak that it could not protect its citizens (After all you say you have the worlds best army). Why would anybody play into the hands of miscreants who want you to change the demography.

    3. Lastly, you know and I know that even with the demographic pattern of pre-1989, what would have been the result of a plebiscite. Why would Indian government shy away from that.

  305. @ Junaid

    Junaid wrote:
    What I gather from your arguments, is that you associate everything with Islamization, which is a debatable topic in itself.

    Rishi’s repsonse:
    Its sad and unfortunate that you choose to ignore this most important reason, when a lot of people and almost 1000 years of history provides considerable evidence, that conversion to Islam, of the Kashmir’s native population had led it its alienation from its brethren.

    Junaid wrote:
    Basic human right of living: In a broader sense, let us define it as economic prosperity. Over the last 60 years or so, the policy of Indian government has been to throw rather than share.

    Rishi’s response:

    Brother Junaid. Democracy may not be the perfect form of governance. But it is the best we have. Unfortunately, in our part of the world, corruption has seeped itself into our way of life. Separatism and jihad in Kashmir, has caused our brethren to lose opportunities of contributing meaningfully to their own development.

    Now one can choose to spend years throwing grenades at the establishment and cry foul about it for the loudspeakers of mosques.

    From the days of Rishi Kshyap, all through recorded history, Kashmir has caught the imagination of every one who visits. It tourism, and agricutural industry allowed its people to have one fo the highest per-capita incomes in India.

    Junaid wrote:
    2. As far as ethnic cleansing is concerned, that is too harsh a term to use for the exodus. Playing a Devils advocate (I am not one :)) I can argue, was the Indian government so weak that it could not protect its citizens (After all you say you have the worlds best army).

    Rishi’s response:
    Ethnic cleansing is the wrong word. RELIGIOUS CLEANSING is the correct word.

    Why? because the Kashmiri Hindus that were killed and raped were ethnically the same as the Muslims who killed them. In fact, almost all Muslims of Kashmir were converted by the sword and coersion of Islam.

    Yes, the Indian establishment was weak in dealing with the perpetrators of Jihad. In fact our entire effort is to put pressure on our governments to deal with this jihad, more sternly.

    So brother Junaid, wont your devil’s advocate avatar, that doesnt exist, AGREE that Yasin Malik should be hanged for his role in murdering Hindus.

    Junaid wrote:
    3. Lastly, you know and I know that even with the demographic pattern of pre-1989, what would have been the result of a plebiscite.

    Rishi’s response:
    Yes Junaid, even with the pre-1989 demographics, the Muslims of Kahsmir could have seceded under a plebiscite.

    But, the question of plebiscite arises only when Pakistan vacates the 1/3 rd of Kashmir, Kashmiri jihahids ironically call, “Azad Kashmir”.

    I would suggest, Junaid, Syed Ali Shah GeeLani should first launch a jihad to take that 1/3 rd back from Pakistan.

    Junaid…. If anybody shoudl be talking of “us” against “them”, it should be you and me together, against the yoke of Islamic servitude that has plagued this beautiful land for so many centuries.

    The struggle is long and hard….ut eventually our Kashmir will be free…….FROM THE CLUTCHES OF ISLAM.

  306. @Junaid:
    You said: “Basic human right of living: In a broader sense, let us define it as economic prosperity.”
    .
    Is ‘Azad’ Kashmir more prosperous than the one on this side of the border? Or, is Pakistan as a whole economically more well-off than Indian Kashmir? Or was there a systematic Indian Govt. effort over the last 60 years to deprive Kashmir of prosperity? Have resources been moved from Kashmir to other parts of country (or even to Jammu/Ladakh)? Why don’t people of Jammu/Ladakh seem to feel that their ‘basic human rights of living’ are being violated/denied?
    .
    You said: “It has resulted in a corrupt society who wait foe appeasements every now and then. But if you breed a society like this, you would invariably be not able to satisfy them.”
    .
    Are you referring to Kashmiri society as corrupt?
    .
    You said: “The policy should be an ‘inclusive’ one rather than a disinterested gesture.”
    .
    Agreed, still I don’t see or understand your point about the denial of ‘basic human rights of living’ you keep harping about.
    >
    You said: “As far as ethnic cleansing is concerned, that is too harsh a term to use for the exodus.”
    .
    It’s not just an exodus, it’s people forced to leave the lands of their birth, just because they happen to follow the ‘wrong’ religion. Was any Kashmiri Muslim driven from his home? And yes, Indian Govt. was weak and had no will-power to stop this cleansing.
    .
    And yes, the Kashmiri Muslims might have decided to leave India in the plebiscite, but will Jammu and Ladakh have followed suit?
    And you try to disassociate yourself with ‘Islamization’ – but at the core, it is the ONLY cause. Is it a coincidence that it’s India’s only Muslim majority region that wanted/wants to secede? ‘Islamization’ was the basis for the 2-nation theory and it is the ONLY reason you would want to merge with Pakistan — irrespective of your imaginary grievances (denial of ‘basic human rights of living’ seemingly the primary one).

  307. @ Junaid

    So if economic prosperity is the ‘basic human right of living’, shouldn’t the kashmiri population resort to something more constructive to improve their lot, so to say? I thought collective raping, pillaging and murdering to acquire your neighbour’s wealth went out of fashion in the mediavel era?
    Second, I do know that Kashmir (being a special category state) enjoys huge grant transfers from the finance commission to sustain the finances of the State (the highest in India). I do not think that the average kashmiri islamist particularly minds that freebie. They just don’t want it to be called a freebie for ‘honour and dignity’ reasons. Hence Mahbooba Mufti’s comment to GOI: ‘hum kashkol le ker nahi aaye hain'(We have not come with a begging bowl). Kashmir is also the only State which does not have the Reserve Bank of India as its Banker. It uses its personal Bank – State Bank of J&K for its govt borrowings. So you really cannot blame GOI for your economic malaise.

    Next, if the kashmiri islamists reasoning for terrorism is ‘lack of economic prosperity’, I think there are lots of other candidates all over India (atleast 30-40 per cent of the population) who would be up in revolt, don’t you think so?

    Finally, the hurriyats or any of the other terrorist blokes who appear to represent the desire of the kashmiri islamists, haven’t exactly put forward an economic prosperity proposal on the table, have they? (do point it out if they have). Their whole argument has been ‘self determination at the cost of prosperity’. It is the GOI which is building a rail link in kashmir by taking rail bogies by air in AN-125 aircrafts. It is the GOI which has been building multi-purpose dams in Kishnganga etc. All we ask you is to join the ‘economic prosperity’ effort instead of waiting for it to fall like manna from heaven. Also, while you are at it, do stop thinking that India or the rest of the world owes you a living.

  308. @ Hujur

    Most of those ill informed folks who bleat on about why the GOI is not fulfilling the ‘UN resolutions on plebiscite’, have not actually read what the pre-requisites of holding the plebiscite were.
    In fact it is not only pakis who have to vacate POK, the whole exercise became void the day Pak handed over kashmiri territory to China through which the karakoram highway passes.
    Unfortunately it is only useful idiots (from pak’s point of view) like the kashmiri islamists who keep harping on about the non-holding of plebiscite as a ‘cunning hindoo-bania’ conspiracy againt the frank and fearless faithful.

    Though I do think that given the juvenile arguments of our dear friend Junaid, he is actually a pakistani from west pujab probably resettled in POK and currently living somewhere in Europe :)

  309. @ Arnie:

    Do know why so many Muslims from West Punjab (the Pakistani side) go and settle in POK and lead the jihad?

    Because the Islamic Ummah has a very low opinion about the Kashmiri Muslims “fighting ability”.

    In fact, Hamid Gul (the former head of ISI) once went on record saying that, since the Kashmiri converts to Islam mostly belonged to the intellectual Hindu classes, they are poor fighters.
    That is why Muslims from West Punjab (who were mostly coerced into Islam from Kshatriya Hindu classes, during the Sultanate period), lead most of the Jihadi groups, and leave negotiations and political activism to Kashmiri Muslims.

  310. @ Rishi_K,

    I did not know that but can believe it. If you consider Junaid’s argument (statistically insignificant I agree but you do with what you have I suppose), he hasn’t been particularly successful in making an intellectual case for the islamists.

    He started with a statement saying kashmiri’s were beind denied the basic human right of living. He then ammended this to being denied economic prosperity. He then goes on to absolve the islamists role in the religious cleansing with the comment that why couldn’t your army protect them !! So his point is that an islamist gotta do what an islamist gotta do and you can’t blame him he is just taking the dar-ul-harab to its logical conclusion !! But then if the Indian army intervenes – they are dogs :) I never cease to marvel at they way they nurture their victimhood and sense of entitlement from the rest of the world.

  311. Guys! Some of you still hanging around here — here’s a radical thought.

    IF I’m not mistaken, there’s a Pakistani gent lecturing us on how screwed up India is.

    Here’s an ideal solution. Pakistan is a radically screwed up nation on the verge of collapse, with jihadis running amuck all over the place, funded by Saudis, and supported by their own army, for God’s sake.

    Kashmir is a screwed up little fleapot which contributes absolutely nothing to India, but sucks in huge amounts of money from the Centre, most of which the Abdullah family spends at Wimbledon. Nehru was sort of emotional about Kashmir, but here’s a newsflash — he’s DEAD! Who cares about his zamindari?

    Donate this screwed up place to Pakistan. Pakistan then becomes even more of a mess. Our border becomes the safe area of Jammu, with no 5th column to subvert in the case of war. Plus we free up 400,000 troops to do more useful things, such as give China something to think about.

    The Kashmiris want to join a failed state? Let them go ahead and enjoy themselves. I’m sure their grandchildren will thank them profusely.

    We can then seal off the border with plenty of barbed wire and buy our apples from elsewhere. And they can enjoy a wonderful exclusive trading arrangement with that world famous economic powerhouse — Pakistan.

    Sounds tempting, doesn’t it?

  312. @ radicalbong

    and what about the 15 crore Muslims in India…. Demographically takng over district after district?

    Wanna cut out one finger at a time, each time, to satisfy the Ummah?

    Wasnt partition meant to give the Muslims what they wanted once and for all?

    What next? Half of Bengal?(Dinajpurs, Murshidabad, Nadia, the 24 Prganas).

  313. @Rishi K and Radicalbong

    I fully unerstand that no country gives up land voluntarily. Even if it is a gangarene infested limb like Kashmir, we loath to amputate it. Radical Bong’s views are elucidated in more detail in Vir Sanghvi’s editorial in Hindustan Times. He has also adddressed Rishi’s concern that a possible seccession of Kashmir valley (after trifurcation where Jammu and Ladakh will join India) in addition to freeing up resources for India will NOT be an example to other insurgents in India like ULFA…

    http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage/StoryPage.aspx?id=37ea1a37-c222-41e7-8b19-859b5fd34cbd

    Think about it, Pak lost Bangladesh.. whined about it at the time, but looking back, are they any worse for it? Maybe Zulfi Bhutto even wrote a secret Thank you note to Indira Gandhi! It solved the making-Urdu-the-national-language problem for Pak as well.

    I am also thinking that if kashmir valley leaves, we must ask the Kashmiri valley muslims who are settled in India (like the Abdullas who own a bungalow in Delhi, or the Sher e Kashmir univ graduates who reside in JNU hostels and uphold their “ultra secular politics” should also be encouraged to return to their now-free homeland and apply for student visas and work permits to get back to India IF India ever opens a consulate there.

    Havent we had enough of this appeasement which is obviously not working?

  314. @chaterji:

    Won’t letting Kashmir join pakistan (or being independent) be an admission of success of 2 nation theory (which India officially rejects)? And if Kashmir is let go, won’t border districts of WB (as Rishi points out) and lower Assam districts have to be let go (if not now, at some point of time)? Wasn’t partition meant to address this?
    .
    And finally, won’t all this renew demands of population exchanges (though there’s not much ‘minority’ population left to exchange in Pakistan/Bangladesh)?
    .
    AS I see it, the problem is not Kashmir, the problem is an entire mindset. It’s Kashmir today, it’ll be M dominated WB and Assam tomorrow….

  315. @ Chaterji

    If Kashmir succession is accepted on the basis of the validation of 2-nation theory, as Mr Vir Sanghvi suggests, then I see no reason why the 15 crore followers of Koran should stay in India

    Are we willing to take up this impractical tast and make it into a historical reality.

  316. @Yuyutsu,

    Please read Vir Sanghvi’s editorial to see why Kashmir is unlikely to be replicated in our other troubled areas.

    Yes, I know India rejects the 2 nation theory cos we are such a great secular nation and will not accept that muslims will always complain (a la Shabana Azmi 2 days ago) of “opression” and “injustice”… But I am imploring you to take a practical approach to the situation.

    Isn’t it painful that we loose so many armymen “protecting” Kashmiri muslims who (like Junaid miyan) call them dogs? Won’t getting rid of Kashmir free some armymen to take care of the illegal Bangladeshi’s in Assam.

    I am not sure about the pop exchange, but as you correctly pointed out, we don’t seek to gain too many Hindu refugees from Kashmir valley(they are all in the rest of India already) and we should actively encourage Kashmiri muslims residing in India to leave and return to India with appropriate visas. Sounds like ethnic cleansing… well, after 20 years of seeing Paki flags Lal Chowk and the victim mentality of K-muslims in delhi univ and JNU, I don’t give a damn anymore.

    Btw, I have a secret thought. I really wonder if given the awesome conditions in Pak these days, if even Geelani will vote to leave India.

  317. @Rishi,

    It is acknowledged even among the hardcore separatists of the valley that non kashmiri Indian muslims don’t have much patience with their “cause”.

    What is more impractical in the long run? Holding on to an ex-heaven-on-earth at huge costs to India or biting this impractical task bullet once and for all. I know that the K problem has turned into a mindset issue for Indian muslims but frankly I will be happy with even imcomplete solutions at this point.

    I don’t know if you are one of the Akhand Bharat believers who feel that the Indo pak partition was a mistake. However, I am very happy that we are not part of Pak anymore (think 15 core MORE Q followers PLUS the pop of Bangladesh!!!).

    I guess I just want a SOLUTION.. If you disagree with this idea, please give us another one.. obviously winning hearts and minds hasnt worked.

  318. The paki flagbearers will not cross over to Pak and live there for the SAME reason that Sitaram Yechury refuses to cross over to China :) I think Prabhu GB outlined this in an older post “I HATE INDIA BUT ENJOY ITS BENEFITS.

  319. I do appreciate that at the moment, Vir Sanghvi’s solution seems to be the ‘most practical’ one, but as I said before, I think it’s short-sighted and the story’s unlikley to stop here. Sanghvi conveniently assumes that Indian Ms, in general, don’t sympathize with the Kashmiri cause. While that might be true, as the ‘atrocities’ committed on ‘liberal’ Ms (the Shabana Azmis of the world) show, the call of the Ummah might not (won’t) stop at kashmir, will it? After all, one can’t expect the Indian Hs to stop their ‘brutal oppression’ overnight.
    .
    Also, if I’m not wrong, more than one districts of Jammu region itself is M majority (someone please correct me if I’m wrong). Will that go with Kashmir?
    .
    Had the Indian Govt. been strong enough to stop further demographic shifts in rest of the country, yes, by all means, we should gift Kashmir to Pakistan (along with all the Kashmiris residing in rest of the country, including the ‘secular’ Abdullahs). But I think all of us realize, the Indian state doesn’t have enough will-power to prevent such shifts — today it’s Kashmir, tomorrow something else (WB, Assam?), and the ‘thousand cuts’ go on. I’m not an ‘Akhand Bharat’ believer (I share your view about being burdened with lots more pakis/B’deshis) but I think one partition was enough, there’s no way any transfer of populace is possible/practical/desirable, and we can’t keep losing more and more land for the sake of ‘peace’ (which is likely to be temperory in any case).
    .
    Btw, I was wondering, couldn’t the Govt. just have let the ‘protesters’ march into PoK (to Muzzafarrabad) and sealed the borders (that much ‘aggreieved’ population less to worry about)? :-D

  320. @Chaterji
    “Hearts and minds” that believe in the Koran cannot be won with love and appeasement..

    -Abolish article 370.
    -Resettle Hindus back in Valley (from all parts of India).

    Strategically, Pakistan is in no postion to pull a Bangladesh on India.

    So dont turn this into a gift for them.

  321. @Rishi

    Yes, removing that 370 crap is a must… dunno if Hindus really WANT to resettle in that God forsaken land anymore though.

    Pak may loose an eventual war with India, but can you imagine how bad it will be? Nukes et al… I just don’t know if some ungrateful valley folks are worth it. At present I dont even feel they are worth the numbers of soldiers we loose protecting them in “peace time”.

    @yuyutsu,

    You seem to share my frustration at GoI’s lack of political will.

    The march to Pok was a farce. I bet no indian muslim (kashmiri or otherwise) wants to leave India. We only have illegal Bangladeshi’s coming INTO India. Even after the Guj riots did we see any muslims crossing the Guj-Pak border to settle in their Dar-ul-harab? Do we ever see any infiltration INTO Pak? This alone should silence the Juniads and Azmis.

    But the GoI/Army HAD to go after them to stop them, just like we HAVE to hang on to Kashmir, HAVE to keep pampering them and worse of all HAVE to butcher our bravest and finest men to protect them… what do we get in return… more Junaids…

    Sorry for the rant, I will stop here. Thanks for the engaging dialogue.

  322. @ Chaterji

    Bhaida…please dont call Kashmir “godforsaken”.

    Kashmir is Bharat’s crowning glory and has given sooo much to our civilization.

    Call Geelani, the Abdullah’s, the Sayyeeds and the Mir’s, who sold their souls to Islam, “godforsaken” if you want to.

    Nobody is saying, we will have a war with Pakistan.
    When I say Pakistan is strategically in no postion to fight over Kashmir, I mean they are in no postion to fight a war.

    So forget about nukes and all that.
    Please dont even think of giving up any inch of this sovereign nation. Have trust in a long term vision, and set up short term goals to achieve them, step by step.

  323. @Rishi

    No matter how hard you try, I will not use obscenities for your religion because my belief does not get strengthened by abusing other faiths. And you talk about being tolerant.

  324. Junaid, Am curious as to why calling Indian police “dogs” does not constitute an “obscenity”. I was also curious as to what “kafir” means in the context of the “Aiy zaalimo, aiy kaafiro , Kashmir hamara chhod do” slogan refererd to here.Not that I do not know that the slogan means “Hindus quit Kashmir” but I would still be interested to know how you would explain this.

  325. @ Chaterji

    Bhaida…please dont call Kashmir “godforsaken”.

    Kashmir is Bharat’s crowning glory and has given sooo much to our civilization.

    Call Geelani, the Abdullah’s, the Sayyeeds and the Mir’s “godforsaken” if you want to.

    Nobody is saying, we will have a war with Pakistan.
    When I say Pakistan is strategically in no postion to fight over Kashmir, I mean they are in no postion to fight a war.

    So forget about nukes and all that.
    Please dont even think of giving up any inch of this sovereign nation. Have trust in a long term vision, and set up short term goals to achieve them, step by step.