[Warning: long post]
Is this India’s 9/11? There is no doubt that what we have seen today is as much an act of war as 9/11. Foreigners have breached the nation’s borders (with consummate ease may we add). Not through the snowy slopes in the mountains. We are used to that. Not through the porous borders of Bangladesh. We know of that. But through the coastal waters of India’s biggest, supposedly most secure, city. The waters of which as a route for narcotics smuggling should theoretically have been under heavy government surveillance. Or perhaps it is the very lucrativeness of the clandestine water traffic (after this this is D-country) that makes the local authorities not look too closely.
However will this the proverbial last straw on the camel’s back that will ultimately make national security the number one national agenda? Will this change India as 9/11 changed USA fundamentally? Though I would like to hope so, I have too much faith in our so-called “resilience” to be more than a bit pessimistic.
To understand the scope of the operation and the sheer scale of India’s failure, one needs to look at historic precedents of similar kinds of amphibious assault. In 1961, in the famous Bay of Pigs invasion Cuban emigres, trained by the CIA, tried to retake Havana by a similar beach-originated attack after days of US air attack. They could not get much beyond the beach despite being supported by the full might of the United States of America, which in the 60s was possibly at the height of its power. Though I do not want to draw exact historical parallels (the scope of Bay of Pigs was to overthrow Castro), the point I am trying to make is that it should be theoretically intensely difficult for foreigners to use the sea route to infiltrate a country, even more so when the country claims to have an extensive defense infrastructure. But these group of men, well trained and equipped they be, managed to do so without detection and without being attacked. If this does not shake every Indian to the core, I fail to see what will.
The two questions that we all ask now: is why and who? The questions we do not ask because we are afraid of the answers are “When next?” and “How much more”? This being a sunny happy blog, let me not even go into those dark areas. For now.
Foreign news agencies like CNN spare no breath in telling us how India always blames Pakistan in a “knee-jerk” fashion for every incident in the country. This is of course knee-jerk only when India is concerned, when the US identifies Al-Qaeda and Taliban days after 9/11 as the culprit (and correctly too) it is considered to be justice. In a comment to a previous post, a Pakistani commenter Sana says:
All I see on this blog and others is Pakistani and Indian bloggers who are otherwise very reasonable getting at each others throats over this. But it is (what is commonly perceived as) a knee-jerk blame Pakistan reaction followed by a knee-jerk blame-India reaction and I am afraid the vicious cycle will only get worse. It seems like that is another evil product of terrorism, turning people against each other, people who have nothing to do with it in the first place. For the sake of neighbourly support and humanity, I am truly sorry for your loss and it is terrible to see this beautiful city being treated this way. I have seen mine own (Karachi) slip into chaos many times and it never stops being painful. Funnily enough, we have a common enemy, so why can’t people see that?
Without wishing to disrespect Sana in any way, let me put things in perspective. Say I come home and find my lock broken into, the safe open and the gold jewelery gone. My next door neighbor is a convicted felon and a locksmith. It was raining that day and there are muddy footprints from his house to mine, going in and coming out. And then just a day later, I see him standing at the goldsmiths door, selling some gold. Now I could say “He is a human being. I am a human being. He lost a few years of his life. I have lost my life’s savings. How could he cause my misery?”. It is an admirable sentiment and one I would teach my son/daughter if I ever choose to have one. If only to pass their moral science exams.
However what I am going to do is that I will suspect my next-door neighbor and you can call that “knee jerk” if you will. Terrorism does not affect India and Pakistan equally. In Pakistan, terrorism is between rival gangs of terrorists while in India it is between terrorists and their targets. Benazir Bhutto was a facilitator of terrorists and instigated crowds of Kashmiris to murder Pandits. This is on videotape. She got assassinated by another terrorist.
Terrorist eats terrorist.So there you have it. My point illustrated.
The point is that once you start defining yourself by extremism, there always will be others who will take an even more extreme and populist stance and make your extremism “conformism”. General Musharaff had thought after 2001, that for the war of terror he would give to the US some token targets, get wads of cash and divert that to the Kashmir cause and that the Pakistani people would thank him for it. However soon there arose a tidal wave of contrary public opinion which perceived the game of Mushy to be pandering to the West. Many people were not even willing to put up the symbolic facade of “fighting their brothers”. And why should they? After all, they were not skimming off the top, had no personal stake in the “bogus war on terror” and saw no perceived progress in snatching Kashmir from India. This is the kind of internal tensions that has lead to the terrorist violence in Pakistan and the burning of Karachi.
Things with India are extremely different. Here Pakistan’s enmity with India is historic. As a matter of fact, some may say that the very reason of Pakistan’s existence is a rejection of the fundamental principles behind India—secularism, pluralism and equality for all.
The fundamental problem that Pakistan has with India has magnified over the last few years.
And no this magnification has not been something that has been driven exclusively by the philosophy of radical Islam, as is commonly understood.
I would say it has been the green-eyed monster. Jealousy.
While there was a time a few decades ago that Pakistan and India were both in the mud, as a Pakistani commenter said, India chose to look up at the stars while Pakistan kept its face buried in the mud. So while India is seen as a rising power, an economic superpower in 2008, Pakistan is seen universally as a failed state, undoubtedly feared by the West, but as a nuisance actor, the creepy middle-aged man who hangs around at children’s park. Over the last few years, Pakistan has suffered consistent national humiliations—-their citizens have to jump through higher hoops in order to get admitted to Western countries along with countries like Iran, foreign cricket teams have refused to tour the country for many years now because no matter how many times they are referred to as “the front line on the war on terror”, noone is under any misapprehension as to which side of the line Pakistan lies.
A common sentiment I have seen expressed in Pakistani cricket boards—-why does the West refuse to tour Pakistan when India has more number of people killed from terrorist attacks? The reason is simple. The West knows that while there are vast sections of the Pakistani administration hands-in-glove with the terrorists, whereas in India the administration is the unquestioned antagonist of the terrorists. So the fear is that while the Indians may be competent, the Pakistanis may be overtly competent. In the wrong way.
I mention this to illustrate the difference in perception between India and Pakistan. And it is this difference is what drives Pakistan mad.
I would poke my head out and say that the recent attacks represents perhaps Pakistan’s most egregious attempt to bring India to the level of Pakistan in terms of international perception. What Pakistan wants to show is that:
1. Foreigners are as safe in India as they are in Pakistan
2. Do not invest in India.
In other words, November 26 is the day that Pakistani terrorists want to show the world that they and India are, in a way, equal. This they want to do by destroying our national confidence, our economy and our tourism. Make no mistake about this.
Now that we have tried to answer “why”, let’s look at who. One of the most important aspects of this attack has been the taking of an American Rabbi as a hostage by the terrorists making Nariman House a special target just for that purpose.
Ask any SIMI rabid radical and while he may fulminate against the Jewish state, it is highly unlikely he would ever go out of his way to get at Jews in India.
Radical Islam in India and Pakistan has been driven by anti-Hinduism. However if you go to the middle East, they don’t care for Hindus. There radical Islam is driven solely by their historic antagonism to Jews.
In this light, the taking of American Jewish hostages may be of great importance. It may represent the changing alignment in the Pakistani terror movement as its leadership passes from a more South-Asia-focused leadership to a more Arab-focused one. This could be the unfortunate concomitant of the failed US war in Afghanistan as the old Al-Qaeda leadership, driven away from Afghanistan but made more powerful, has now taken over operations in Pakistan. Hence the attacks of November 26 are extremely similar to attacks on foreigners in Cairo and in Beirut, with the focus being to attack the US and Israel while humiliating India.
So when the Lashkar e Toiba say they are innocent, perhaps they are right. While their old cadre may be involved in the project operationally and the ISI may still be a major mobilizing and training force, the old brain-trusts of the LET are perhaps no longer in control of the Pakistani Jihadi movement. In other words, the actual Jihadis may be South-Asian but the ones pulling the strings thousands of miles away may be Arabs. Which is why they go out of their way to take a Jewish American hostage and that too a Rabbi.
The train and bus bombings were the “old” way of doing things. These endeavors meet their objectives in the following manner: 1) cause panic 2) make the Indian government make heavy-handed arrests 3) portray those arrested as innocents by “friends” in the media and 4) antagonize minorities who are fed the message that they are being targeted. This I expect will continue.
But November 26 has shown that there is a new kind of terrorism which has emerged—-the kind that does not make much attempt to hide its foreign bonafides, which seeks to effect a more direct toll by breaking international confidence in a country’s economic and political institutions, and which has multiple strategic objectives one of which is to promote and provoke sectarian violence.
If one wants to see an example of how a country crumbles under such attacks, read the modern history of Lebanon where a multi-cultural, liberal country was decimated by a series of such attacks, fragmenting the country into essentially a group of warring militias.
Dark days ahead.
The Greatbong Blog & Podcast 
I have to disagree to an extent with your view of Pakistan’s antagonism. While the disparity between us would definitely be a factor, I don’t think it can be THE factor, not among brainwashed loons. When you consider that rural Pakistan is still quasi-medieval, sentiments at the international level seem unlikely as the main driving force. Its still radical Islam that’s the problem.
Regarding the question of whether this is India’s 9/11, Manmohan Singh has announced the creation of a National Level Anti-Terror Organization (Ops and Intel). The question though is whether he will give such an organization teeth, especially when (not if) it starts to mess with people’s vote banks.
The exceptional co-ordination, choice of targets and sheer violence is no-doubt unprecedented in India in recent history.
Yes, the impression it will have in anyone who has ever been to Mumbai is comparable to 9/11.
It is too early to speculate what counter-measures will be in effect(if anything significant at all) , how explicitly we will ever know about the terrorists and how this incident will distort our relations with Pakistan.
I pray that even if it is clear that the terrorists belonged to a religious group we will not be misled into another episode of religious fundamentalism.
All i hope is that the government’s job isnt done just by condemning these attacks.
Spot on regarding the coastal security. My first thought was WTF!! How do 25 guys land in a boat from outside the country and attack commando style? Specially when they passed through Colaba village very conspicuously?
Hopefully this time the political parties come together and show a united face,much like after 9/11 in US
The economic effect this crisis is going to have coupled with the global slowdown is something that we need to look for.
No point in expecting some drastic step taken by this government. Remember.. there are elections around the corner. So at the max we will see 103568 commities and sub-commities formed to evaluate the situation.
Spot on!!
@Akasuna
“National Level Anti-Terror Organization”? yeah right.. Do you know constitution prohibits any sort of Federal agency for security? It says security is state-level duty. This so-called national level thing will require amendment in the constitution itself. Are we (politicians and citizens) willing to be that active for it?
its time now to unleash our dogs of war… one thing need to be understood that these guys cannot be reasoned with in a civilized manner. how much you invest in security its almost impossible to prevent these type of discrete attack when a terrorist nation is your neighbor and using all tactical planning and resources to create disturbances. the only way to weed out these menace is to wipe out the root of all evil. the current Pakistani leadership is far worse and nefarious than Musharraf. Musharrf was rather a reasonable man. Indian laws has to be strengthened special acts like POTA, TADA should be reinstated. Current congress govt and manmohan singh cannot create any confidence among us. I wish if Sonia was our PM she may be italian but much more strong .. and we need no “goody .. gentleman… professor … academic” …. we need a proactive leader NOW…
Great article. Your point about Terrorists eat Terrorist is spot on . I agree with you that the terrorists are trying to destroy the Indian economy , but they have done this in the past too(like the stock exchange bombing , attack on software companies in bangalore) . The terrorist are most probably pakistani( i hope they are not indians) , however i find it very amusing why would they be carrying their pakistani driving licensce ? They know they are going to get killed , why would they give up their identity ? However i dont feel that terror leadership has changed to an Arab .South Asian Terrorists do hate Israelis and Americans as passionately as they hate India . I think the reason for them going out of the way to kill and keep foreigners hostage is for media exposure. If they would have attacked only the train terminal the West would have cared . This would not have been a headline news in CNN for 2 days without the attacks on foreigners and the Rabbi. Plus i think that with the hostage situation they thought they could get a safe escape , Just my 2 cents
What a sad day? this underscores the fact that however much your military strength may be, a few corrupt hands can breach the security of our homeland. The b******s who took money to allow the drug-waters to be porous are terrorists too!
I am shaken, I hope everyone else does too. I wish we all stop regarding the live TV transmission as a one-day match between terrorists and commandoes. We need to get real, it is our lives, our economy and our country at stake.
Dark days indeed.
Should we chase Somali pirates to protect our business or terrorists visiting India “on business”?
Are we proud that INS Tabar “sank” a dhow (a dhow for Christ’s sake!)thus saving a couple of tons of wheat while terrorists sailed into Mumbai NOT at JNPT or Alibagh, but right under the nose of the Naval command in Colaba?
Should our defence forces, who have never staged a coup in the history of India, do so now and displace our clueless, shit-spouting and ineffective political clowns?
Is there one politician who can galvanize this country like Hitler did to the Germans? Maybe there will be one soon because at this rate, we too will have nothing left to lose.
@neeraj
please tell me you are joking,what we need is a better intelligence network not a dictator
When US had “9/11” the American media said “America under attack” not “NYC under attack”, here we find Indian media say “Mumbai under attack”!!!!
Just one day before these attacks the TOI carried this article
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Beat_meltdown_heat_in_India_Soni_to_foreign_tourists/articleshow/3757408.cms
Wonder how many would risk their lives now.. Guess our tourism minister will have to come up with something new.
I have often seen people talk of how we need a dictator to set things right. The deeper malaise is the utter lack of leadership that India has historically demonstrated. Other than Indira Gandhi (for a brief period), I can’t really think of any strong PM we’ve ever had. (Of course she had her flaws, but was pretty hardnosed as well).
Look at Yashwant Singh’s handling of the IC 814 hijack, close to a decade ago. And look at the current leadership- the usual motherhood statements about how ‘we will not be cowed by terror’ and ‘the perpetrators will be punished’, or the usual finger wagging at Pakistan to ‘stop terror attacks’.
If we set up a counter terrorist force-this should be fully autonomous from political interfering, and should NOT be subverted to protect the sorry asses of our politicians.
Times like this, I really wish ‘A Wednesday’ style justice could be meted out.
Spot on! How can the premier of Pakistan say ” We have the same enemies” Bullshit. Pakistan’s sole reason for existence has been its anti India sentiment. I fail to understand why we get fooled again again and get duped by the ” bhai chara ” sentiments, when we know that around the corner they are just getting ready to stab us in the back. I hope this time we see some concrete action from our government.
@Ani
I was watching video coverage and exact same thing came to my mind.
We have such lowlife politicians, such a gutter media, and such a spineless security and judiciary that I think India will end up in civil war and may disintegrate in the end.
I’d like to offer a slightly contrarian view about this being our 9/11 : it is much more serious than that. Actually I think that the London Subway blasts were also more dangerous in one of their implications than 9/11 (obviously the lives lost were not on the same scale.) All but one of the London bombers was born in Britain, the last having gone there at age five. Their transformation into suicidal radicals happened mostly in English mosques, against the backdrop of a Western tolerant society. Compare that to a bunch of Saudis who took advantage of easy student visas and outdated hijacking protocols. 9/11 seems like a one-off lucky strike in that the consequences of success – full scale war in Afghanistan, much tighter restrictions and surveillance of a certain class of foreigners, made a repeat performance unlikely. On the other hand if married, college educated, cricket playing Muslims can go and blow themselves up one day… what are a few thousand surveillance cameras going to do?
It scares the shit of me that a section of Indian muslims are so far removed from the rest of our society. That this could be a kind of post Blue Star insurgency in which one ‘holocaust’ against a community (use what word you like) becomes the justification for waves of young men to become senseless murderers. In a way I hope that the majority of these militants turn out to be Pakistanis. I’m sure you heard the one talking from Nariman House, it made me physically nauseous. If even a tenth of his community empathize with him right now, we are in for a decade of horrific pain and dismembering.
Excellent analysis GB. I absolutely agree with how jealousy drives the Pakistani establishment. While India has been slow, ponderous but doing the right things, Pakistan has always been devious, underhand, ad hoc and tries to use the get rich quick methods. They were used and willing to be used by Western powers and they dumped them when the situation became hot. when it has become a failed state, they want to drag us into the gutter as well.
Oh, forgot to add. This 9/11 terminology assumes that terrorism was born on Sep 11. Tragic and dramatic it might have been, countries like us, Isreal, UK, Spain have been dealing with terrorism much longer than US.
psec and macaulayite GB has to compare Mumbai attacks to Sep 11 as if Sep 11 is the only terrorist attack worth noting.
Yes Pakistan may be the hand that rocked the cradle but what about our Govt’s culpability. I mean I am more appalled at how totally unprepared our govt. was in every which way about an attack like this. I mean was the govt. totally unaware that India was hot spot terrorist target and that Mumbai based on previous attacks was especially vulnerable to the same. I think the Govt. was more busy scoring political points over the malegaon blast than preparing the country against futire terror attacks. I guess they were banking on the (in)famous resilience of the Indian people against such attacks.
The “multi-strategic” angle is too hard to be missed but as “friends” and “foes” in the media alike remain non-committal on discussing the ramifications of 26/11 its good to see you not ‘playing safe’. I only read Vir Sanghvi who called for ” heads should roll” this morning. No wonder others will join the brigade soon. But as soon as someone is on the verge of being convicted (as in the Parliament Attack-2001), these very people will cry hoarse on “mis-delivery of justice to pander to the Hindu mob at the expense of the minorities”. The case will get increasingly “high-profile” and the best lawyers in the nation will jump into soak in the limelight. “Secularism” as a rallying plank will rise like the monsoon Sun only when the light of public-security is close to being extinguished.
Ahem, Rex – Jaswant Singh, not Yashwant Singh. Yashwant Sinha was another political character altogether. That hijack was also of course organized by our sweet neighbours – as if the Taliban would ever lift a finger without asking their overlords in the ISI.
Is this just another episode in Pakistan’s strategy of low-intensity warfare? After they were humiliated in 1971, they figured that they can never take India on in an open conflict. And after they saw the jihad strategy yield such great results in Afghanistan, they decided to use it in India as well.
For all the attacks they’ve inflicted on us, they’ve still miserably failed in their goals so far.
Despite ravaging India with terrorist attacks (and I grew up in the 1980s when Pakistani sponsored Khalistani and Kashmiri militants attacked repeatedly and at will), it’s India’s economy that’s flourished while theirs has stagnated.
At the time of Independence, the area that is now Pakistan was the richest region of British India. Even in 1997, Pakistan’s GDP per capita was 25 per cent more than India’s. And now?
India’s 2006 PPP adjusted GDP – $3800. Pakistan – $2600. Ouch! I cannot find a better exemplar for the adage “Crime never pays”.
They have been trying to wrest Kashmir from us for more than 60 years, we liberated Bangladesh in two weeks. The Khalistan movement is nowhere on the scene now, and yet at one time it seemed as if we were in real danger of losing Punjab.
Just thought it’s important to have some historical perspective here while we speak of things like our 9/11. I think the Parliament attack was a greater breach of security because it’s the most highly guarded part of the country and they still managed to get through.
I absolutely agree with Akasuna no Sasori. There’s no way that radicalized Muslims have India’s economic growth on the top of their mind. It must be more on the lines of, “Fuck these guys, let’s kill them because they’re Hindus / anti-Islam etc.” It’s unlikely that they monitor our GDP growth rates very closely in those training camps.
What scares me is this:
1. If the terrorists are so brash and so confident that they can walk into the epitome of wealth and prosperity and do what they will to the rich, important and powerful people in my country and around the world, what chance do I have? I travel by local transport to office everyday, walk exposed to bombs and gunfire, and no one provides me any Z-class security. This begs the question – as one with means and options to move out of my country, do I do that to ensure the safety of my family or do I continue gamble with their lives and mine everyday?
2. There’s a massive Intelligence failure. Heck, after what happened all through 2008 there’s simply massive lack of intelligence from our elected representatives who promise us so much every five years or so. How do you justify this obviously co-ordinated effort? And after all this, we have leaders who try break the fragile thread of unity that keeps us together. And no one bothers. They tell me that I am not safe if I’m not born in a certain state or in a certain religion and the terrorists tell me that I am not safe if I go about my daily business. Who’s worse? Where do I go? Even my defence mechanism, my insensitivity to the daily blasts has been ruptured due to the audacity of these events.
I can’t even imagine two random guys arbitrarily training their AK-47s on a VT crowd. Worse, what if the future sees them getting their hands on nuclear / biological weapons? The citizen ordinary of this country really feels the meaning of the word ‘terror’.
Rohan
Daily Terror
Yes I agree that this attack was a drastic attempt to bring down India’s growing clout ( be it in the financial world or in sports/cricket). There are these vested interests across the border and maybe beyond, who can’t seem to digest the fact that a “Hindu”(majority) nation can rise to the might of a superpower( however far fetched that idea might be). Also every success of India pricks Pakistan because it reminds them of eack backward step they have taken since becoming the “land of the Pure”.
But I don’t understand what policy the Indian govt is following.. I was watching Al-zajeera ( just to get a feel of how they are viewing this whole thing), and I saw a correspondent from Pakistan saying that India has lot of internal issues, like Kashmir and ASSAM ! Now they have started taking the name of ASSAM in the same breadth as Kashmir, just because few months back during an ongoing tussle between the indegenious tribals and the illegal immigrants from Bangladesh, the Bangladeshis waved the flag of Pakistan. But there’s no reaction to this, like back off from Assam or such… when will they learn to stop the problem before it grows into demonic proportion ? It seems it is very easy to breakup India… first infiltrate a region with illegal M immigrants (of course with tacit support from the politicians with an eye on the vote bank), then convert it into a M majority region ( Assam has now the highest %age of M population after Kashmir) and then claim that the region cannot be part of “Haram” India.
Oh, BTW after one of those numerous attacks in the past few months, wasn’t there a dire warning in one of those emails like ” wait and see what we have planned for Mumbai”?
There’s no way that radicalized Muslims have India’s economic growth on the top of their mind
Sigh. What I said was that the people who are the brains behind such operations (an ISI bigwig say for instance) operate also on jealousy (and you dont need to monitor GDP to know that your country is a hell-hole) and yes the foot-soldier Islamo zombie isnt as zombie as you think he is. The Islamic fundamentalism essentially provides a deluding mask of nobility for his feelings of low self worth. I encourage you to read God has 99 names to see how diverse the mind of the Jihadi can be and that what simple minds consider “fanaticism” is a composite emotion driven by different feelings—ranging from jealousy to even sexual frustration. A survey of Palestinian disaffected youth found that most of them would love to emigrate to the US, that so-called Land of Satan. Which proves my point.
@Greatbong
Bit confused by this one, honestly. You seemed to start out building a strong case to identify Pakistan as the enemy, but then got into the area of Pan-Arabic Vs South Asian terrorism. I guess you’re depressed, and not looking to make big debating points right now, which is perfectly understandable.
Your point about the Al Qaeda type terrorism is very well made, though. The moment it became clear British and US citizens were being targetted, it was obvious that this was an international terrorist act. Why would a kid from Srinagar or Ahmedabad, however misguided and murderous, want to shoot an English man? Because of Warren Hastings?
So this is much more dangerous, but at least it’s not entirely the old India-Pak thing. It’s probably the same type of guys who bombed the Radisson in Pakistan.
It seems pretty clear that these guys came from Karachi. If you accept for a minute, though, that perhaps the Pakistan Government didn’t directly send them (that would be an act of war, pure and simple) — then what we have to ask of them is this — OK, dudes, you can’t control Peshawar, but surely you can stop an operation of this scale in Karachi? And if you currently cannot, you better work damn hard to make it happen. If the Indian Army can keep militants at bay throughout the state of Kashmir (and yes, they need 500,000 brave men to do it), surely the Pakistan Army can keep Karachi in some kind of civilised order?
My point is, Pakistan is very complicated right now. For the first time, some elements of society have realised that supporting terrorism just doesn’t work. Currently, their army is fighting pitched battles with the Taliban — something they have never agreed to do in the past. What we need to do, by sympathy, by threats, perhaps by a combination, is convince those elements that they cannot pick and choose their terrorist enemies — they have to fight all of them.
The atmosphere in Pakistan is such that for once, we might get through to those elements of Pakistan society which share our views on terror.
Who knows, perhaps we can settle this once and for all so that we are free to concentrate on our real enemy — China. Forget about emotional responses and revenge — if we don’t free ourselves up to face them, we will be nuked within the next twenty years. The wind will blow the radiation into Pakistan too, so they ought to worry.
@Thalassa- thanks for pointing that out.
I read somewhere that since the USSR collapse, more than 200 nuclear weapons have gone missing or are unaccounted for from ex Soviet arsenals across the former states.
One does not require much sophistication to create a nuke, even a few grams of plutonium packed with conventional explosive are enough to spread lethal radiation over a wide area.
And let’s not even get into talking about suitcase nukes.
The US’ response to 9/11 was to tighten security everywhere, to the point of ridicule and ‘security theater’ as described by Bruce Schneier. No one has managed a repeat performance since then.
Compare with India, on a good day any anti Indian terrorist group would just say ‘Come on boys! Let’s go leave a few kilos of RDX in a crowded place and watch the fun!’
In a way, this attack is a ramping up. They must be pissed off to see how thick skinned we are at the loss of human life, to carry on with business as usual the next day, and so this is the next level, to gauge our reaction. (I’m all praise for our personnel handling the situation).
So what do we do?
Israeli Mossad style vengeance hits, similar to the liquidation of the Munich terrorists and the Entebbe raid? That would definitely send out a message not to f*** with us. Though I don’t see that happening anytime soon.
Beef up our intelligence? That’s the only viable alternative. Yes, please. Otherwise some day Mr. Jihadi armed with suitcase nuke/dirty nuke/anthrax/what have you will raise the stakes even more, adding an Indian city to the list of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, while we sit around.
@RadicalBong:
And I guess you’re depressed and are difficult to go through the most simple of points :-). Which is also understandable. I think just another reading would have helped.
In brief, what I say is this:
Pakistan *is* the enemy. The footsoldiers come from Pakistan. Their reason to attack is historic. Jealousy is a strong motivator as is religion (not just religion). But the operational brains for November 26 are perhaps not South Asian (i.e. not Pakistani). Which explains the new modus operandi.
As an example consider Al-Blind-of-eye-Zawahiri as the “main man” with a few Pakistani ISI agents sitting together at Peshawar drawing up plans whereas previously it would just be the ISI dudes (who really feel jealous of what India is and what Pakistan isnt). If it was just the ISI, the attack would be different—it would be the more conventional leave the bomb at the bus stand type and no Jewish community center would be targeted.
Do you see any inconsistency here?
Interesting post. We are clearly being targeted by Islamofascists, of whom Pakistan provides the Body, while Saudi Arabi, that most evil of all nations, provides the brains and money. We need to unite and take decisive action. For some thoughts, please see this
I concede GB that in this case, if this is ISI-sponsored, which is a strong possibility, that it’s true that the bigwigs have our economic growth in mind.
I meant that in case this is not a Pakistan sponsored attack, which is also a possibility, groups like Al-Qaeda (who have declared jihad against India) and other non-Pak groups are driven by a feeling of vengeance and misplaced righteousness and enforcement of Sharia law. That’s what kick started recent ‘Islamic’ terrorism in the first place.
And on a side note , Benazir Bhutto has been nominated for a human rights award by the UN . I guess Kashmiri Pandits are no longer counted as humans . That is the only reason why she could get an award like this .
http://www.ptinews.com/ptiptisite.nsf/0/BB47177006A550996525750E002E469A?OpenDocument
By the way, move over Kalashnikov, there’s a new game in town. Kapil Sibal said on TV that the terrorists had MP-6 assault rifles. Here’s an article from The Tribune India on MP-5s (cousins of MP-6) in the great Peshawar arms bazaar.
“Islamabad, August 21
The war on terrorism in Afghanistan has brought a state-of-art to the foreign-made lethal weapons in Pakistan’s arms markets in the tribal areas and other parts of the country, reports Dawn from Peshawar.
Arms dealers in the town of Dara Adamkhel, which has been the hub of gun-manufacturing activity, say that the US, European and Israeli-made deadly weapons are attracting buyers from across the country, particularly Punjab province. Apart from foreign made weapons the Wah factory-manufactured MP-5 rifles are also available in Dara market.
Dara town, 35 km southwest of Peshawar, has been an attractive markets for the militants of all hues and shades for many years. During the de-weaponization drive, the government had exempted this town from the drive. Some of the arms-makers had also been given employment at the Wah factory. The new variety of lethal weapons has come in the market at a time when Islamabad is evolving strategy to clean the society from “Kalashnikov culture” that was introduced with the invasion of Afghanistan by the former Soviet Union. Survey made by Dawn in various arms market in the tribal areas of Dara Adamkhel, Khyber Agency and Kurram Agency revealed that the latest version of US-made M-16 carbine with laser designator and binoculars, Bulgarian and Zchekoslvakia made Kalakov (222) and Israeli-made highly sophisticated pistols were available at different stores in Dara Adamkhel.
The market price of US-made M-16 carbine is Rs 180,000 in Dara. The price of Bulgarian made Kalakov ranges between Rs 20,000 and Rs 35,000, Zche-made Kalakov costs between Rs 20,000 and Rs 23,000, US-manufactured pistol costs Rs 80,000 while the Israeli- made rapid-fire pistol is available at Rs 130,000 in the market. The market price of Wah factory manufactured MP-5 assault rifle is Rs 60,000 per piece. ANI”
I think (assuming we don’t get concrete evidence that this present Pakistani govt. is complicit in the attacks, that would obviously mean war) your post proves India needs to actively help a sympathetic Pakistani administration.
The stronger, more prosperous Pakistan’s administration is (assuming it’s talks and work with us are actually going somewhere), the less credibility can be handed to the militants by the Pakistani populace and the less need to destablise India there is, especially if a strong India is key to Pakistan’s prosperity.
This is why I suggested that we offer them some money around the time a couple of months ago when they were running out of cash.
While it is Pakistan that hurts India the most, they are another instance of the superclass of radical islam (which I think is all that is there to islam) that threatens the world. The uprooting of this has to be ruthless and methodical and has to start from the ideological roots that spawn these people.
How about a venture fund set up by national government to fund businesses working on solutions for national security and anti-terror? I could think of a zillion such possibilities. I doubt any tax payer will cringe at such a fund.
I guess this is the single most responsible act of media reporting on this incident .. http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/3768509.cms
I have never heard of anything like MP 6… though I have certainly heard of MP 5 SD series and the new MP 7 PDW… Would somebody enlighten me please?
By the way, the favourite Chief Minister of some of your commentators decided to score some political brownie points by landing at the Oberoi Hotel and fuming about the incompetence of the Prime Minister and the Central government.
Apparently, even the Prime Minister decided to skip a visit to any of the hotel sites (because as it so happens, commando operations are still in progress) and went to the hospitals to see the victims.
Mr. Emperor of Hearts wants to milk this attack for whatever it’s worth but I think with the hotel visit he may have bitten off more than he can chew. Very crass and in very poor taste.
we will get through this.
we have to get through this.
we will revive our interest in cricket in a week.
we will go back to our lives in a week.
it will take more than this cowardly attack to break my country’s spirit. it is the country of the Karkares and Kamtes and i am proud to be part of it.
get well soon GB
Interesting take on the changing alignment in the Pakistani terror movement but is this nuance of consequence to those who lost their kin in these attacks?
IMHO, this is but one chapter in the book of mayhem and carnage authored by the radical Islamic terrorists…..their names, faces and plots may change but the end goal does not.
@aylamrin – Apparently the MP-6 assault rifle does exist. Here you go, scroll down to the H&K MP-6. Lots of lovely weapons can be bought with American aid money given to fight the war on terror.
http://www.gods-inc.de/macavity/IsleOfShadows/weapons/heckler-koch.html
Yep, no question that its coming from Pakistan. Where else can it come from?
India is just unlucky to have them as neighbors.
But what’s just staggering is that a country positioning itself as the next economic power (i.e. India) just doesn’t do anything concrete to protect the lives of its own people! Economic growth suddenly seems so less significant.
Get well soon.
BTW, since you’re not in India, you’re probably gonna get better sooner. The News channels here wouldn’t have helped. They are just more sickening.
-Anna Bond
http://baddayatoffice.blogspot.com
This is my first post in your blog though i have been an avid reader…I live in Mumbai and It truly is the maximum city but after this attack I cannot express what i am feeling ,I don’t know how long I will be able to withhold this silent rage building inside me.Yesterday I heard Suhel Seth on Times Now , he was trembling with rage,and for the first time in the day I felt here is someone who reflects my state of mind…If I hear one more time about the “Spirit of Mumbai” I swear I will beat the hell out of that guy…What option does a common man have?He has to go to work to feed his family…He cannot just pack and leave !!!Where the hell is Arundhati Roy now ?hope she died in the firing,if not she will shed crocodile tears tomorrow for the so called misguided youth .This Congress government is height of apathy and impotence….I have never felt angrier in my life.I dont hate Islam, I dont think it teaches mass murder ,but today I doubt my belief in the greater good…perhaps this is the time India should go on offensive and strike Pakistan’s NWFP region…meanwhile it is important that we eliminate congress in the coming elections so that “BandGala” “Impotent Surd” and “Madame Roma” “Buffoon Prasad Yadav” “Maualana pseudo secular A.B’s bitch Singh” fade in oblivion..We need change in our defense and foreign policy and adopt preemptive strike against all known source of terror.
This … GB .. has become an anti-Pak blog now. Not a single voice that has tried to even debate your theory of ‘Pak is the enemy’.
Which must be one of the primary objectives of terrorism -> Divide.
And boy. Havent they succeeded ..
Anna, I know our media gets a lot of flak, and a lot of times deservedly so. But since a lot of us are taking the time to appreciate the incredible bravery and spirit of our Army, policy, paramilitary forces, Navy and NSG commandos, we should also put in a word for the media.
These folks have been reporting non-stop under very difficult and dangerous circumstances. I was especially proud when I saw a video posted on CNN where the CNN reporter ducked to the ground and was visibly shaken when a grenade was lobbed from the Taj Hotel, but in the background I could hear the Indian reporter Manoranjan Bharati constantly providing his news feed and not the least bit rattled.
The coverage, on the whole, has been first rate. Thanks to the streaming videos on NDTV and IBN, I have been able to bypass the incredibly shoddy coverage on most Western media sources.
My dear Turrtle, if you have an alternative explanation, I’d love to hear it.
“November 26 is the day that Pakistani terrorists want to show the world that they and India are, in a way, equal. This they want to do by destroying our national confidence, our economy and our tourism. Make no mistake about this.”
You summarized it.
Spot-on Arnab! As usual.
Its time WE DO SOMETHING together along of writing blogs n comments. Lets contribute 100rs to govt. 50 rs to buy sophisticated equipment to our police( which they should have been provided but the money went into our politicians pockets) and 50 rs is politicians share ( half of the funds released goes into politicians pockets). Lets embarrass them. Plz lets do SOMETHING.
This is insane turrtle…Bong dada has not become anti Pak today.He is just stating what all Indians believe.As I speak , another volley is fired at Taj.May be this theory might save your Pakistan.very soon Arundhati “Biatch” Roy will state that This was a carefully planned attack by Hindu terrorists, they deliberately took rebirth in Pakistan as Muslims, so that they can attack India and malign the greatest country of the world Pakistan, Your country is the hell hole of the world.accept it and try to change pakistan.
Excatly want I wanted to say …
I taking a print out of this and putting into on clip board in our office toilet. Hope HR does not mind (if they have mind).
Dada,
Before i say anything in this issue, First here is a honest confession. I am a media person and i am working with a leading Hindi News Channel. Generally if there is any major accident, blast or attack the first reaction in the news room is that of grief and shock and then after a while every one is little enthusiast that we got big news to play for night and day. But for the first time in my 8 year carrear in this field i found everyone dumb struck and speechless in news room. This in not only the case of my channel but everyone else. True that our anchors are looking hyperactive and our reporters are there in Ground Zero or war zone whatever you say. For the first time no one in the news room is saying that we want this kind of attack to get News. I am telling you the truth that everyone is shocked. yes we need news and major event to fulfill the growing demand of 24×7 news channel. But we don’t want this kind of attack. yes some time we became inhuman in the search of news but this time it is too much. many people here are saying that congress govt is ineffective to counter terrorism but in my opinion all the parties are more or less same in this problem. BJP is in opposition so they can blame the govt but when they were in the power, the security condition of the india was not totally diffrent. let us all remember one thing untill terrorist get local support it is almost impossible to defeat them. so all of you who is doing muslim an pakistan bashing, remember fortunetly or Un fortunetly we have to live with them. so the hour of the need is that we try to convince them that we (Hindus and india)are not there enemies.
I think if the UPA government wants to survive the next election, they will do something. By “something” I mean respond with either military strikes inside Pakistan or threaten an all out war if terrorist camps in Pakistan are not closed down and/or suspected terrorist leaders aren’t handed over. I think the people of India are frustrated by the complete incompetence of the Indian government when it comes to terrorism. After every attack they get to hear the same script:
1) We condemn the attacks
2) We are proud of the spirit of [city affected by attack]
3) The other political party is to blame
Something has to happen this time. Oh, and Shivraj Patil needs to resign.
: India’s ruling United Progressive Alliance (UPA) has done little to launch an effective fight against terrorism and may “pay a price for its incompetence” in the elections next year, the Wall Street Journal said in its lead editorial on Friday.
“A lack of political leadership is to blame,” The Wall Street Journal said as India’s financial capital continued to battle terrorists who had struck in 10 places in the city Wednesday.
The Mumbai terror attacks, in which at least 125 people have been killed, have been covered extensively in both the print and online edition of this New York-based daily financial newspaper.
“It (the ruling party) may pay a price for its incompetence at the national polls next year,” the newspaper said.
“Yesterday Prime Minister Manmohan Singh promised that ‘every perpetrator would pay the price’. Yet his Congress Party has done little more than bicker with its coalition allies over the past five years on how best to fight terrorism,” the journal said.
Observing that the attacks are a reminder that India is at the top of the terror target list, the newspaper said this is because India is an easy target.
Not only are its intelligence units understaffed and lack resources, coordination among State police forces is also poor. “The country’s anti-terror legal architecture is also inadequate; there is no preventive detention law, and prosecutions can take years,” it said.
“Wednesday’s attacks should arouse Indians to better confront the terror threat, while reminding all democracies how dangerous that threat still is,”
it said.
In another opinion piece published by The Journal, author Sadanand Dhume blamed the Congress for scrapping the anti-terror law POTA. “On taking office in 2004, one of the first acts of the ruling Congress Party was to scrap a federal antiterrorism law that strengthened witness protection and enhanced police powers,” he wrote.
“The Congress Party has stalled similar state-level legislation in Gujarat, which is ruled by the opposition Hindu-nationalist Bharatiya Janata Party.
And it was a Congress government that kowtowed to fundamentalist pressure and made India the first country to ban Mumbai-born Salman Rushdie’s ‘Satanic Verses’ in 1988,” he said.
Dhume, a Washington-based writer and author of “My Friend the Fanatic:
Travels with an Indonesian Islamist”, said the Indian approach to terrorism has been consistently haphazard and weak-kneed.
it is due to people like DJ that India has become a mocking staple.Dont try to save Pakistan as there are links which show Pakistan is involved in this attack…..Dont try to put the false humanitarian face and say that not all poor pakistanis are to be blamed…Did all the people who died in Hiroshima fought Allied forces directly??Covert support and at times supplanting terrorists is Pakistan’s crime and it should pay for it
@Thalassa…i am a fan of tht fav CM u r quoting…and i must admit….i am disappointed by this act of his….very much…
@RR…yes dude….that is what you call honest reporting….
This comes from Paki land for sure, almost like Kargil, albeit much more succesful than that. Clueless corrupt civilian president, and Allah’s army is again free to do what it know best.
@ Greatbong
Point taken. You weren’t inconsistent.
But although I may not have initially understood it, it’s the basic thesis that I’m wondering about.
You say ‘Pakistan is the enemy’
My point is, right now, Pakistan is pretty complicated.
Yes, Al Zawahari quite possibly was sitting with some ISI guys and planning this out.
On the other hand, Al Zawahari is a good buddy of and much revered by the Taliban, who are being fought very hard right now by the Pakistani Army. This is not my personal opinion — a lot of independent media, with no great love for the Pakistanis, are reporting it. They may not be doing it out of great love for us, they might be wishing they were pouring into Kashmir instead — but the fact is, they are doing it.
So it doesn’t look like it’s simply a case of the ISI handing over the baton to Al Qaeda / Zawahiri / Taliban. There are other factors in play. It could be an act of desperation from people who are seeing it slip away.
Even if all of them are, to a lesser or greater extent inimical to us, there is dissent in that house right now. If supporting the lesser evil helps us to destroy a large part of the greater evil — shouldn’t we do it?
Secondly, this horrible set of events is obviously going to lead to at least some international support, the kind George Bush and the US got after 9/11. Bush of course pissed it away with remarkable speed. If we just point at Pakistan and generally abuse them, won’t people just shake their heads and say “Same ole, same ole?”. I know you’ll argue that it doesn’t make it any less true, but does it serve our interests?
What I’m advocating is realpolitik (is that how you spell it? I have no idea!) and pragmatism. We should use this opportunity to enlist international support and apply pressure in the right places, and get the Pakistani Army to do a thorough job of what they are currently doing reluctantly.
It’s worth a shot surely? The Pakistani Army has never taken on the Taliban seriously before, the US is pushing from the other side (and Obama’s going to send more troops, and generally get heavy) — why not push them to clean house once and for all? Ab nahi to kab?
All I’m saying is, let’s not bash Pakistan and Pakistanis indiscriminately. Let’s keep a cool head and do whatever gives us the maximum benefit.
Come to think of it, none of this refutes anything you said — in fact, it leads from it.
Of course, with an 80 year old PM, and an 80 year old ‘PM-in-Waiting’, what are the chances of any vision or innovation? I know a lot of the people on this blog don’t live in India, so you don’t get to see all the channels, but trust me, its like ‘The Mummy Returns!” – in duplicate!
@DJ
But how do you convince someone of something which we never were in the first place? Since when Hindus and India became the enemy of anyone? Did Hindus ever go on an expansion spree? Did Hindus ever try to force conversion on anybody? Did India ever attacked a country on its own, even when deeply provoked?
This percieved enmity is created out of frustration, jealousy. They are jealous of our strong economy ( the whole world wants to do/ or wanted to do business with India). Indian companies are going overseas and acquiring prestigious international brands. Our Bollywood movies, led by the khan brand, are no longer an embarassment, but are strong symbols, full of colour, and unapologetic. Our cricket board can dictate to the goras when to play and where to play…and most of all our democracy, which is flawed, but still alive and kicking.. These are the things that irk the Ps most… Just go through their newspapers, blogsites, to know what is the general opinion..they would love to see it destabilised and reach a status quo with them.
Was dying to read something sensible, thanks GB. As a very ordinary Indian who can just witness the dance of death unfold is damning. Things will never change .. they never do!!
@Thalassa: I agree with you on the point that these journos are doing a great job of reporting from location for more than 40 hrs. As I write this, I can see reporters crouched outside the Taj and yet speaking to the camera with updates.
I commend their efforts. I really do. But I disagree with you on your point that this is ‘first rate coverage’.
Firstly, It is quite irresponsible of them to report every single step of an army operation *live* even after it was known that terrorists had setup some kind of control center inside the Taj and were communicating with people outside using a sat-phone.
And secondly, I can understand that they have 24 hours to fill and it would seem inappropriate to switch over to reporting other news during this situation. But that’s no excuse to report anything and everything. I’ve been watching since wednesday night and it does get obnoxious sometimes.
I’ve mentioned more points on this, if interested you can take a look here:
http://baddayatoffice.blogspot.com/2008/11/great-indian-tragedy.html
Hi,
Agree on most counts except your views on Pakistan, in fact just wrote something about the incident on my blog. The illustration of robbery is also in my opinion wrongly done as I believe when we say Pakistan we are not talking about one person or one family (as you have put it in your little example) but a multitude of people.
Yes, there might be political formations or certain agencies in Pakistan that would like to destabilize India not just for the religious angle but out of jealousy as you point out, but branding Pakistan as the cause for all our worries is like saying all Maharashtrians are intolerant coz there are some fringe elements in Mumbai going on a rampage against North Indians…
When you get the time please do visit the following link and let me know your views on what I think
http://mytwoandaqaurtercents.blogspot.com/2008/11/dont-cry-for-me.html
@Rohan: Did I mention ‘dictator’ anywhere?
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Cities/Mumbai/Pak_may_be_pushing_hardened_jihadis/articleshow/3767597.cms
[…]In the wake of the impudent run of terror attacks across South Mumbai, I believe there are certain eye openers in the context of the unity of the country when an attack of such proportion takes place.[…]
@GB,
Do not agree with the parallel to Lebanon in your last para. As also with the closing statement.
I have read my bit of history on Lebanon. First, the main cause of the inter-religious and the intra-religious rivalry in Lebanon is the massive amount of weaponization of these groups. So thats the cause and not the effect. Something that in the current scenario doesnt look possible in India.
Next, remember Lebanon does not have any independent policy, either domestic or foreign, of its own. The Sunnis in Lebanon are influenced heavily by Syria, the Shiias by Iran and Hezbollah and not to mention the Christian groups (Maronite, Phalange etc) by other Foreign powers. To the extent that even Israel had created its own militia in Lebanon called the South Lebanese Army (SLA). It is considered one of the more disastrous strategies of Israel so far.
So that lays to rest why India and Lebanon cannot be compared.
From what I think, the Dark Days ahead are as much for India as for terrorists. Remember, one of the reasons why India might not have pursued terrorists earlier could also be due to the lack of confidence and an identity-crisis on how its actions would be viewed by international community. Actually more of concern for India wud have been Pakistan projecting this to the west as being bullied by a large country and it being the vulnerable country and thus gaining brownie points.
Of late things have changed. For one, the fact that India has been given an exclusive entry into the Nuclear group bypassing criteria like signing NPT, CTBT etc means India now has a certain standing internationally.
And also the realization among the western countries (though not completely acknowledged publicly) that for all its projected view of a victim the real bastards are the Pak authorities ( ISI, Islamic religious groups etc).
We also know that China and Saudi, both so-called staunch allies of Pak have recently refused to put in change into Pak’s begging bowl, when it was running arnd asking for cash to run itself.
So any action taken by India in these circumstances might not be opposed so strongly internationally as before.
If the Indian politicians and diplomats have the brains and the balls, we can actually pull it off this time. Remember India has the highest number of consulates in Afghanistan, almost all infested with RAW agents. It wont be any surprise that the main source of funding into Balochistan happens through these routes.
So both tactically and strategically, we can really start screwing our dear neighbour from a lot directions. Hopefully….
check out this piece of shit.. http://www.tehelka.com/story_main40.asp?filename=hub151108islam_will.asp there is no news of the attacks on homepage of TEHELKA.. it has never reported any terror !!attack.
And with Kashmir elections having a good turnout that should also puncture the Kashmir bogey that Pakistan might have tried to inflate earlier …
ARE THERE ANY TANGIBLE, POSTIVE STEPS WE CAN TAKE?
==================================================
The menace is multiplying in range. The terror is increasing in its audacity. The brutality is deepening in its frequency.
We all know that the fundamental root of the problem lies in a 1,300 year unresolved issue. Whether the terrorists emanate from Pakistan, or are now svengali’d from the Middle East. These are just semantics and shifting terms.
So how do we even begin to remotely tackle the problem? We cannot pay kind in kind. We cannot be seen to antagonise, or even run the risk of offending the community. So what can we do? We have two tools. Politics and knowledge.
THE POLITICAL TOOL
——————-
Our political shroud is worm-ridden. tattered and putrid, and everyone is correctly convinced of its impotence.
Even so, if we can bring back the BJP to power with so mighty a majority that they can pursue their policy with determination, Indians stand a chance.
The last time it was more the NDA than the BJP. Of course the BJP clowns pranced around in the sick NDA comedy, but their policy list was diluted if not sabotaged by allies snapping at heels. They are far from perfect. But at least they will not bring India down with as much steely resolve as the Congress.
In power, they wil be able to conducta propery survey correctly identifying the extent of how communities are exploding. They can then frame policies to take effective steps to curtail the problem, and increase the army strength to ensure domestic peace is maintained if their policies are resented. An example would be forcing Indians to restrict their offspring to a number of two. I doubt whether any non-motivated Hindu, Christian, Parsee, Buddhist, Sikh, Jain, Jew or Ahmadi would oppose it.
If we are bracing oursleves for an unprovoked mass attack against our community, as in 1942,1947, 1971 etc, some form of compulsory National Service activity at school level can be considered. This would help defend ourselves if our foe unleashes its cohorts.
THE INTELLIGENCE TOOL
——————-
Rather than pouring our blood-earned money down the throats of imams and madrassahs, some of whom are highly suspect, a genuine step to educate the Muslim community at large would be opening of GOOD LIBRARIES near Muslim areas and encouraging Muslims to attend. Instead of stuffing these with confabulated Islam-specific texts, care should be taken to chose books that portray :
– the mystical elements of Islam
– genuine areas of understanding between Hinduism & Islam (fama & Samadhi, Hindu concept of Brahma)
– scientific developments
– the error and folly of terrorism
– mumerous incidents where Islam was defeated categorically. This will break the invincibility myth that their preceptors use to fill their hearts with hatred.
– tales of genuine Hindu / Sikh / Buddhist suffering at the hands of Muslims for over 1,300 years. I am sure that if young Muslims learn these facts, before their hearts and minds are poisoned by their madrassahs and our media, they will sympathise with Hindus, foster a greater love for India, and become progressive, confident and valuable citizens of India.
Such effeots could be supplanted by street theatres etc promoting tolerant teachers like Kabir, or those who upheld the lofty spiritual tenets of Hinduism, like Vivekananda.
At the end of the day, let’s give them something positive to do, something noble to contemplate. Rather than leaving them alone to brood, breed, blade and bleed as per the unchallenged exhortations from many of their insitutions.
FINALLY, IF EVERTHING ELSE FAILS
=================================
Visit Floor 3, Duncan House, 31 Netaji Subhas Road. 🙂
Yikes. Sorry. Previous post was mine.
Dark days indeed.
I don’t even see how these events can be stopped.
How do you stop people in a city of 2 crore? How do you stop a madman who is ready to die?…How do you remain sane?
Hades
Dear Mr. Terrorist
Just In :- The muslim terrorists have killed the jews before killing themselves. Operation almost over at Nariman house.
The response of the West has been very unfavourable to this whole crisis. The American academia in particular (They teach in class that Kashmir should go to Pakistan, that Hindus oppress Muslims in India, that radical Islamic terrorism unleashed on “Hindu” India is “understandable”. Read more, this is what many graduate students in the US and outside are reading this morning:
——————–
FORWARDED MESSAGE
H-ASIA: Historic mass uprising of tribal people in West Bengal
Friday, 28 November, 2008 8:33 AM
From:
“Frank Conlon”
To:
H-ASIA@H-NET.MSU.EDU
H-ASIA
November 27, 2008
Historic mass uprising of tribal people in West Bengal
**********************************************************************
From: jkirk
http://sanhati.com/
Now one fears that because of the attacks in Mumbai, the
governmenet will take it as permission to slaughter more tribals
and any marginal peoples who oppose the state anywhere in India,
without concern for the differences between the need for justice
vs. sheer criminal terrorism.
_____
Joanna Kirkpatrick
Bennington College (retired)
Great post, Arnab.
You hit it on the head with your explanation of why terror in both neighbors is inherently different.
I donot know how much this was blessed by the ISI etc but do know that the problems they have over in Pak with splinter groups is immense.
I am walking wounded, this Thanksgiving, after hearing this news.Same mood at a gathering of desis yesterday.
I share an immense personal connection wuth Mumbai.My first job was T Nariman Point working for a Tata company.Naturally, Indian Hotels was a huge IT customer.
I have many fair memories of this city.One thing I know for sure, Mumbai will rise as it always has done.Note: the Sensex did not flinch from this.
We are a hardy people.
Note to c****ya policymakers: Please ensure this does not get repeated in any of the metros.The intent of these cowards is to hurt our economic success and if they repeat this in Delhi/Cal/Chennai/Hyd/BLR then we got ourselves a major problem.
@ Thalassa : Thrilled to see NSG snipers carry the famous HK PSG-1 … mmmm, delicious gun… !
@GB: An excellent post, which fully captured your frustrations and anger at this terrible tragedy. Also, may I say, quite an excellent analysis of the situation and its possible solutions. I do buy your arguments of pursuing Pakistan more aggressively and making them accountable for bringing about terrorism in our country by virtue of lawlessness in theirs. I am also convinced with the ‘jealousy’ argument that you put forth, as I do believe that more than core Islamic fundamentalism, it is the absolute desire to see India not doing well, that leads the Pakistani military/intelligence establishment to be complicit in plotting such nefarious activities.
@RB & GB: GB, I am inclined to agree with RB’s take on this too. I do believe that he has a point in suggesting the Realpolitik model of engagement. I think what would be best for us is to back up our accusations with rock-solid evidence (that we must gather by meticulous examinations of the crime-scenes, persistent/fierce interrogations of suspects, strong intelligence gathering & surveillance, etc.) and make a compelling case in front of the international community. If indeed Pakistan is involved in this (either directly or implicitly), then we must seek to humiliate them by exposing their actions. And we have to rally around nations and build our own little coalition, seeking decisive consensus and action on the issue of Pak-sponsored terrorism. It would also be worth our while (as RB says) to seek out the moderates within the Pak political establishment and aggressively lobby our case either by pressure or by empathy. In any case, we have to drum up international support for applying pressure on the Pak establishment.
too much of patience and gandhigiri..All the talentless & bhikhari singers and comedians who cant get their roti in pakistan stop speaking about aman & pyaar..bahut drama ho gaya.. mumbai is givin employment to so many of those nasal singers and cheap maskharas..we are not welcome in their country..our movies are banned.. why are we being tolerant..this tolerance is resulting in these bas$%$%ds entering our country without fear.
Did you read these statements of this SIMI leader just last week?
http://www.tehelka.com/story_main40.asp?filename=hub151108islam_will.asp
Hades,
To your question: “How do you stop a madman who is ready to die?”, I would say:
Get down on your knees and start begging him for mercy.
Aylamrin – Yeah, I didn’t understand all the arm-chair theorizing by some folks about how Indian commandos don’t have the right weapons and what not.
Apparently the great advantage of the MP-6 is its concealability. Compared to the huge Kalashnikovs, it is much smaller. And the MP-5 is actually manufactured under license in a Pakistani Ordinance Factory (the Wah factory mentioned in the article).
The current head of Pakistan’s Army is a former ISI Chief. The current head of ISI is a man responsible for the so called “operations against the Taliban” (Apparently there are some folks out there who actually believe this to be anything but a total sham. Perhaps you should read Ahmed Rashid’s take on this)
Every attempt by Zardari to clip the ISI’s wings has been unsuccessful so far. Perhaps this is just another way for them to assert who’s really the boss here.
At least Zardari knows that the ISI’s recklessness has brought Pakistan at the brink of economic disaster and if they continue in this vein the country will be bankrupt in a few months.
People are being simplistic and naive when they assume that Pakistan is India’s enemy. That is just looking at the tip of the iceberg. We must look beyond the current events if we are to understand the root of the problem.
Pakistan is not India’s enemy. Neither is Afghanistan or Bangladesh. They are just the symptoms of a malaise – a deeper malaise that politically correct Indians are afraid of exploring.
After all, given the antiquity of Indian civilisation, until recently the people of Sindhu (Sindh), Panchala (Punjab), Gandhara (Kandahar), Purushapur (Peshawar) or Vanga (Bangladesh) were spiritually, culturally and religiously an undeniable part of the mainstream of Bharat (undivided India).
Then how did the same people have a change of mindset and a change of loyalties over a period of time? How did Mother India become the enemy to Her own children? Why do some of Her children live in denial about their roots?
The answer: Something happened in 711 A.D. Its called the Battle of Sukkur….And that’s just the beginning.
Brilliant. I knew there was a reason I still had you subscribed in Google Reader.
Over here in the US the media ethnocentrism is reeking beyond measure. CNN especially with their Miss Piggy reporter on the scene at the Taj who seems to soil herself over every little gunshot and as a reporter actually has the GALL to bitch about being too close to the story/scene.
After the incident with the crowds she doesn’t seem to happy being in Country “where you just drink the water”(she’s made the a battle cry.
In any case this incident has revealed to the world what many of us have known…India is a giant with clay feet.
I dont have any alternative theories. Neither I am anti-Pak, nor I am pro-Pak. Frankly, I don’t care a fuk about anybody other than my immediate family and close friends.
What I stated above is merely an observation. Last few hours, all I am hearing is anti-Pak comments. If somebody did this with the objective of converting the length and breadth of India (the non-Muslim one) into anti-Muslim and anti-Pak zombies, they have surely succeeded to an extent.
@Monique:
When it was Gandhara, it was an independent Buddhist kingdom ruled by a Hun dynasty that came from Central Asia (or Western China).
Perhaps the Greeks have a better claim than ours, since Bactria (present day Afghanistan including parts of Pakistan) was a Greek colony and many Afghans have Greek blood in them.
Vanga was at its most powerful under Shashank, a Buddhist ruler and the Pal dynasty, also Buddhists.
Simplistic historical generalizations are never useful.
Let’s leave history aside for a bit. Where do the loyalties of Pakistan lie? Does Islam triumph nationalism and culture? I’ll believe that the day the Saudis start giving citizenship rights to brown Muslim migrants, because aren’t we all Muslim brothers and one big ummah at the end of the day? Right.
Well I am ordinary citizen.
I remeber 2 years back i was being offered a lucrative job at mumbai center of a software firm and I refused to work at Mumbai largely because:
1-> Its overly stuffed
2->Overly Classed
3->And thier mode of commutation overly crouded locals
4-> and now overly Insecure
One more thing that I would like to add to.
As a young man when i was growing up I saw my fellow friends geeting jobs in state police department. I used to ask them how you got into police and almost all the time they have the same reply “Aise ni hota paise chadhane padte hain…”. SO these people largely handle the state security. Do you think after payin 10 lakh rupees they will work. first they need to recover thier costs then they will think of something else
The main thing is that the type of people getting into administartion is very poor now be it any state government job. Largely either they are some relatives of the in power govt leaders or some son of rcih. I can’t see them working.
thats the reason for state security failure and maharastra being highly marathi manoos infected their police force is highly infected with bhaichara
Thalassa
You have to understand that the differnt Panthas of Hindu Dharma, including Buddhist philosophies never considered themselves beyond the Dharmic umbrella.
But that will be difficult for you to understand.
But for Islam, there is no need for Pakistan to exist. We are the same people.
http://ckunte.com/archives/shoddy-journalism
I think that the terrorist had already visited the hotels before the fateful night and took notes of the topography of the place. It may well be possible that some of the terrorists were actually lodged in some of the rooms before these people from outside joined them. A MASSIVE INTELLIGENCE FAILURE!
Oh boy – No, I do not understand. I have the courtesy to respect Buddhists and their right to a separate religion and not try to impose an overarching Dharmic umbrella on them. You seem to lack such basic civilities.
I wonder how a Thai or Korean Buddhist would react to your flippant assertion that they are basically Hindus anyway. It is attitudes like these that alienate people. Folks like you also manage to piss Sikhs off by glibly saying that Sikhism is basically Hinduism by another name.
Anyway, this is not the post to discuss Hinduism, Buddhism and their discontents. We are here to discuss the geopolitics between India and Pakistan. Let’s keep on topic.
Why is media is calling these guys terrorist, they are not, these guys are enemy combatant.
Enemy has crossed the border, it is Kargil part 2. We are still waiting for an retaliation.
I seek justice.
We are the assholes who take bribes and issue fake fisherman licenses. We take bribes and issue fake passports and ration cards to people infiltrating our borders. For a few bucks we trade security of our own families to total strangers.
Who is answerable to us?
While Mumbai burns, borders with Bangladesh, Pakistan and China have gaping holes. We will do nothing. Another attack will happen soon and we will forget this one and talk about how resilient we are.
Shame on us.
Why India has to this day ?????????????
1.) It is so true that every state of india is isolated from other states this is why india dont have unity For ex ( When US had “9/11? the American media said “America under attack” not “NYC under attack”, here we find Indian media say “Mumbai under attack”!!!! )
In india people care for own family they don’t care what’s happening in india or with indians.
2.) India should elect YouNg BlOOd for the Post of PM not a old lazy people who even hesitate to make frequent decissions…
3.) Everyone knows root cause of terrorism is our neighbhour country then why the hell they have INDO-PAK relations .. why the hell they are providing the Ground bus servies . Indans are themselves welcoming the terrorists into our own country … how foolish is to welcomming the buses of terrorists with indian securties ..
4.) Indian people they dont have any patroitic feelings in themselves.
5.) India has different different religions ex. sikhs , Hindus etc etc.. even they have racism with each other .. if these relgions being under one roof have racism how can they stop other religions having their influence on us ????
6.) In india there is no value of “human” only value is of wealth … every single person is corrupted from low level to high level..
7.)See the poorly lifestyles of indians and indans holy places in pakistan even the temples and gurdwaras are not given respect and on the other hand see how well mannered and nice holy places are developed by them in india … this is where india lacks even knowing dat their own sacred places in pakistan are not given respect but india being so called “Secular” they provide own security people to secure the holy places… ” I am not against racism or religion but still if other country dosen’t care for our religion why india let it happen then ????
8.) It already been proved that terrorist were carrying Pakistan driving licensce still indians thinking and just fighting with 30-40 terrorist .. indian army should straightly attacked their country and public then they would have cared how they are harrasing and damaging normal indian public and foreigners .. why india is still quiet ..
you said it and said it quite well.
pakistan feels humiliated in the international arena, their economy is down, their citizens are looked with suspicion everywhere. and on the other hand india, the arch enemy, is looked as the next center of power.
their faith in US shaken after nuclear deal with india and strikes within their own teritorry. the underlying reason is jealousy over India’s rise.
@ Mr.Dheeraj
It is clearly proved this attack has happened just to prove india as equal to pakistan in terms of international perception…
Every country can see how india is rising day by day and its obvious other’s has jealousy factor this is normal thing ..
Reaching and acheivng the top level in world is not as important as to attain its position at that level .. Indian leaders and goverment already know that they have everything now good economy,manufacturing ,agriculture … even then why are so open and loose in security … they should have more tight security systems as india is developing
To attain the level one should think abt the negative side and also preventions for negetivness tht might can occur as happened now …
I dont know what the damn thing is happening in this world. After couple of days i hear a news that india is under terror or any other part of world is under the influence of terror and bla bla. Well what we can say, i am here to inform that this world is vanity fair & no one thinks for another rights or good. bUt they however are more concerned about themselves, their families and their money.
One of the another cause is unfair and lazy bones indian political leaders, they keep hop to terror by invating pakistan buses and apart from this they also provide securities to them. We also issue fake passport to fisherman’s and they bring their ass down to here & create inconvienece to local public.
We all heard and watched in news and it is also disclosed that these terrorists are from karachi but they will always keep on having verbal meetings and everytime we will hear from these leaders that we are doing our best and we will not let them go and punish them.
But again & again these kinds of damn activities and these kinds of attacks will occur. one day everything will be over.
I retched when I first saw the news.
Thinking in long term, India would be better off to estrange itself from Saudi Arabia (as well as other Islamic countries in the mid-east) and try to befriend Israel as much as possible. They share common cause (Islamofascists) and I guess many would agree that the way to USA heart’s is through Israel.
To make sure that the energy sector is not hampered severely (oil baby oil!) by such a policy, India should start planning concretely on ‘Energy Independence’. Nuclear energy is certainly going to take off big time in both India and US in next few decades. At the same time, India should invest in non-conventional resources like solar and wind.
Time and again it has been shown that India has lagged in fundamental breakthroughs in science and technology and it does affect national security issues both directly (defense research) and indirectly (energy sector).
Once you don’t have to deal with terrorists’ patronizers , you are in much better shape to handle internal security issues too (for which there isn’t much fuel given the secular nature of India).
Why are news channels even reporting that Pakistan denied any involvement. Does anyone really think in their sane mind that Pakistan govt. would ratify the accusation, even if they hatched it with all their heart??
I can’t help but recall the following from Shawshank Redemption:
Let’s say for a moment Blatch does exist. You think he’d just fall to his knees and cry, “Yes, I did it! I confess! By all means, please add a life term to my sentence!”
Tarun, why alienate Arab nations for no reason? We have very clear adversaries here – ISI and the terrorist outfits it created.
The Saudi-Pakistani relation is a purely material transaction. They give Pakistan money and oil, Pakistan rents out Pakistani Army soldiers to them. The relationship is also be governed by the fact that both the Saudi royal family and Pakistan are close American allies.
As for the other nations, none of them have ever been involved in attacks on India (Saudis too have never been implicated in anything, except indirectly through their funding of Laskhar and madrasas in Pakistan).
Iran, a large Middle-eastern power and clearly an Islamic country is a lot closer to India than Pakistan (Iran and Pakistan tussle with each other for political control of Afghanistan).
There is absolutely no cause for imagining enemies where none exist. What we need is not some blinkered ideology but very hard-nosed realpolitik. We have to prioritize our strategic interests and build whatever alliances we need.
And for all your advice of aligning with the US, have you stopped to consider that Saudi Arabia and Pakistan are two of the US’ biggest allies? That it was an Israeli arms dealer who was supplying Israeli made weapons to the Afghan mujahideen?
Realpolitik is dirty, messy and without morals. And that’s the game we need to play if we want to keep our nation’s interests first.
@ thalassa
Realpolitik involves strategic thinking.
All that you talk about is tactical measures of exploiting family squabbles.
Saudi Arabia and Paksitan are brothers in Quran. They may have their internal too-too main-main,but when it comes to you dear bhodro-mohila….you are the Kafir at the alter of conversion or death.
Every jihadi attack reminds you of that.
And after every jihadi attack you choose to ignore it.
@ Thalassa
Have you any idea of the Sikh history until 1930s
It is with a sense of shame that i realise what this entire incident means for the nation and its security. That a handful of terrorists can, with the help of anti nationals living in India, challenge the entire might of the Indian security eastablishment and succeed in striking terror in the hearts of all Indians is an accomplishment the terrorists and their Indian supporters will gloat over.
We can now only pray that after killing all the terrorists, their collaborators are also brought to book and charged with attacking the nation, without paying heed to the usual charges of human rights violations that the pseudo secularists will almost certainly raise within the coming weeks. Vote bank politics should not be allowed come in the way of punishing these traitors.
Arnab Goswami’s coverage was by far the best in Times Now. Times Now was a channel that I despised because of the newspaper link, but I have to eat back my words.
A few years back, kashmiri hindu’s were driven out of thier homes (and state).
And looking the the present situation, it seems that very shortly, hindus will be forced out of the rest of india as well.
Oh boy, hyperbole and rhetoric are not strategic thinking. Have you stopped to consider that Saudis actually pay more money to kaafir gora expats than to brown Muslim expats for the same work?
That despite being brothers in Quran as you say, and even ethnic Arabs, they’ve never given Palestinian refugees citizenship rights? (the Pakistanis don’t even count because they are expendable guest labour).
That they and other Arab nations poured money into the secular government of Saddam to fight the Islamic Republic of Iran during the Iran-Iraq war? And looked the other way as Saddam merrily used chemical weapons against Kurdish villages and Iranian soldiers?
And then when Saddam wanted to gobble up the Saudis after taking Kuwait, they conveniently allowed the kaafir Americans to use their soil to defeat Saddam.
What about the relationships between Israel and Turkey?
What exactly do you know of Middle-eastern history and geopolitics?
As for Sikh history, rest assured that I know enough. And also quite a bit about contemporary Sikh politics. Even the least ethnocentric Sikh will take offense if you refer to Sikhism as an offshoot of Hinduism. So please refrain from making such demeaning comments.
If the government cannot deal with jihadis because of vote bank politics.
Let private groups deal with it.
Indian government must start supporting counter-jihad operations using private agencies, since it cannot use its resources due to Muslim vote bank.
The Indian middle class and upper middle class, i am sure, will gladly doante to ensure safety and progress
Thalassa:
You arent doing much more than hyperbole either.
A comment blog is nothing more than that anyway.
As I said, while you can find pleasure in seeing Palestinians not being given Saudi citizenship and Pakistanis being treated as second class Muslims in Saudia, they both will get together to screw you.
Israel and Turkey
Talk to me after 5 years. Turkey’s Islamization is a turkey in the oven.
Arab and Persians
While they may kill each other over who follows the Quran better, they will both kill you for not wearing the Hijab.
Sikh history
Good you know about Sikh history. My wife is a Sikh. Your previous comments made me think, your knowledge of Sikh history began in 1984.
Middle Eastern politics
Ask me more an I will tell u.
What is unique in India is the resilience of the Indian government. Somehow, even after this huge shock, global media attention I don’t know if our government will do anything.
An excellent article on the Indian governments dithering on issues related to terror and the compulsions on vote bank politics can be found at the below link:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/PMs_terror_stand_comes_back_to_haunt_him/articleshow/3771339.cms
Arnab,
I’m afraid I already see examples of Western media showing signs of bundling India with Pakistan and just calling the entire region unstable. An “expert commentator” on CNBC was saying “India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, that entire region is going to become a headache for Obama when he takes office”.. Wonder why he left out China.
And as if it was not an illustration enough of West’s tendency to oversimplify things to match their world view, I got another shocker. I was reading today’s WSJ and saw a lesson in history that I seem to have missed. It seems Hyderabad was “annexed” by India in 1948? They even have it online: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122777007750761525.html ; Plus I love the angle they are taking – it is India’s own muslims that may be causing it.
Just a few minutes before our beloved Times of India takes this up and prints this as “analysis”..
Finally, I think it would have helped if we had a stable government in power, with a clear mandate, so they could take decisive action against enemies than worry about how a particular election would be affected. We don’t seem to be destined to have a single-party majority anymore.
(I can’t believe I am pining for Congress rule! Anything but that!)
@Sumit: Hyderabad was actually “annexed” by India in 1948 through what was known as police action. At the time of independence, the Nizam had gone with neither India nor Pakistan.
@ Thalassa “Vanga was at its most powerful under Shashank, a Buddhist ruler … ”
Pardon??? Shashank was Buddhist ??? Since when??
The reason Shashank is vilified in history is because of his staunch anti-Buddhist stance. As a token of disrespect, he even cut down the Bodhi tree in Nalanda !!
@ Thalassa “Simplistic historical generalizations are never useful”.
Yes, but bizarrely incorrect ‘historical’ generalisations (like converting Shashank to a Buddhist), are even less so.
Please do not bate your breath until Saudis grant Pakistanis citizenship to determine if Islam trumps nationalism. Just read up on Ikhwaan & the Muslim brotherhood.
Also, when you are comparing a 100% Muslim nation with another 100% Muslim nation, culture assumes marginal relevance as the major cause of distinction according to Islam (dar-ul-harb vs dar-ul-Islam) has vanished. But when you are comparing a 100% Muslim nation with a 30% Muslim nation like India (note that I do not call India “70% Hindu nation”, but a “30% Muslim” one),it is quite clear who will prevail in the tussle between Indian culture and the call of Islamic brotherhood.
Please stop manufacturing irrelevant and incorrect analogies to befuddle the issue.
@ Burinng the rage ashish
Ok according to you india should launch an attack on pakistan. let assume that india attacks pak and captured it if not whole pakistan then at least POK (Pak occupied Kashmir) what will happen then. In this case 2 thing will happen
1-First we will loose international support
2-the captured region will become another J&k (no i am not saying that india has forceful presence in j&K ) there will numorus problem also tahe i am ot going in detail. so be realistic attacking pakistan is not solution. we have to be powerful internally. our intelligence system must be watertight and most importently cut the lacal support because without local support it is impossible to launch this kind of attack.
@Rick
it is not about convincing anyone that hindus and india are enemies. but it is fact taht many most of the pakistani and many muslim feels that way. Therefore we wish or not we have to convince them taht if there will be peace tthen pakistani and muslim of both side will be prosperus.
Another thought from me. If religious profiling in India can prevent these frequent and dastardly attacks, of such tremendous magnitude, i am all for it.
The security of hindu’s cannot be compromised for the sake of human rights (human !!!) of these terrorists.
Another thought from me. If religious profiling in India can prevent these frequent and dastardly attacks, of such tremendous magnitude, i am all for it.
The security of hindu’s cannot be compromised for the sake of human rights (human !!!) of these terrorists.
The above comment was by me.
@ Ani and Samvedana
Do the two of you have retarded brains or something? Why’re you making a hue and cry about such trivial things. And btw, Ani, on 9/11 “America” was indeed under attack. New York, Virginia and Pennsylvania, that’s geographically quite distributed. In this case, only one corner of mumbai is being attacked. Hence, “mumbai under attack” makes complete sense.
@ Thalassa
Get your ideas and bigoted prejudices sorted out pal. Our “favorite chief minister” was recently named by Businessworld as the best marketer of brand “India” in the world. He bagged the Nano project when 26 other states could have and is nearly unanimously hailed as the best chief minister in this country today. All he did was come near the oberoi and say what the entire country had wanted to say for the past 3 days.
Sumit wrote :
“I’m afraid I already see examples of Western media showing signs of bundling India with Pakistan and just calling the entire region unstable. An “expert commentator” on CNBC was saying “India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, that entire region is going to become a headache for Obama when he takes office”.. ”
All of us here, of whatever political leanings, bemoan the incompetence, immaturity and corruption that is endemic in India and that leads to violence and a poor quality of life.
The CNBC guy is absolutley correct – the entire bloody region IS unstable and that is not over-simplification as you suggest. We’re screwed !
GB,
Your werewolf does not have a bloody red T-shirt. The son of the bitch survives and guess what the mujahid sings too. PM has called for an all party meeting tomorrow. We will know soon how much of the old rhetoric we will see again or we will make a new beginning. Frankly, this has to be a top-down approach, the situation will only change when the politicians change.
We might never know who did this for real because if there is proof of Pakistani involvement, it won’t be released as the public will only want a major change in the world map. Your post is a strong response to the meme that PAkistan and even pakistani bloggers will try to spread in the next few days and weeks, pointing to what we have done with Muslims in India and the recent ATS Malegaon investigations. The Pakistani foreign minister actually said that in a press conference.
I got a comment on one of my posts from a Pakistani blogger too and i felt compelled to respond to it – check it out http://tinyurl.com/6ooluu
What 9/11 ? India has insurgency since 1947. USA funds almost all terror groups. What f@#$ing 9/11. What was so damn great about 9/11??
Nice article with a few original points. Conflict is eternal; race, religion are just excuses. It will be interesting to see whether this will really change the political discourse in India. I doubt it; though I have been away for long and maybe the new generation is different. India has been sheltered by british power for several centuries and has generally poor grasp of diplomacy and the body politic does not sense the urgency of the events around it; its very different from europe and china which have looked at extermination in the eye in the recent past.
Military or political greatness was never India’s forte. However it is historically rich in ideas. Both the taliban as well the sufis have their ideological roots in India. Maybe the current events will lead to a new ideological solution. Surely the mother of human civilization can come up with something….
.. What i’d like to see is a “Munich” styled execution squad get rid of Dawood and all the other heads involved in this operation. India has tried to stick with the politically correct approach to doing things far too long now without results. How is it possible for a gangloard to flee the country and live out the rest of his days in a foreign land in peace and safety while he continues to F*ck up the lives of people back home at any random time of his choosing.
Ask and it shall be given… if it isnt its time you took it by force.
I can’t believe this is Amitabh Bachchan- http://bigb.bigadda.com/2008/11/30/day-220/ Kinda sums up the mood of the nation
Great post, shows reality for a change
Hara hara…. – how lovely that in Oh boy you have a rhetorical doppelganger if you will.
My bad about Shashanka though. It was a genuine mistake – I only wanted to mention the Pal dynasty and don’t know what I was thinking when I wrote Shashanka. Thank you so much for spotting the mistake and correcting it.
By the way, do you two Middle-East experts specialize in the politics and history of the entire region or do you have an specific countries that you have studied in depth?
Do you speak any Middle-eastern languages, like Arabic and Persian for instance?
Let me tell you where I’m coming from. I actually do speak, read and write Persian, have read quite a bit on the modern history and politics of Iran and have discussed Iranian politics with many who’ve studied Iran extensively. So I do know something about Iran’s geopolitics and by virtue of that something of its neighbours.
I’d be curious to now what the nature of your engagement with the Middle-east is. A lot of top notch scholars comment on Arnab’s blog so I wouldn’t be surprised if I find an Indian expert on the Middle-east who reads original source material in Arabic and is well-versed with the region’s contemporary politics.
So Hara Hara and Oh boy, which one of you is it?
@Ani: thanks for making that point! When will it sink in that there attacks are not on cities but on the country? We are not a bunch of islands! Why keep calling it an attack on Mumbai?
Secondly, I am not the biggest supporter of phrasing this incident as India’s 9/11. It is an Indian tragedy that has happened for different reasons and will have different implications for us all. Calling it India’s 9/11 is, IMO, just sensationalizing it …
@ Thalassa
1. I am not HHBB. GB can confirm.
2. So you realized that the hot air you were blowing punctured your own baloon.
3. Another doo-doo you dropped was that Jihadi boats sailed from Gujrat (Porbandar). The boats that sailed from Porbandar were fishing boats with Hindu fishermen, who were comandeered and butchered by the Jihadis (atleast one of them Halal style).
4. Now going back to clear up your mess
—History of Vanga has significant participation of Hindu Buddhist dynasties, each of them complimenting the other at the ideological level (a significant departure vis-a-vis Islamic rule).
But even before the Hindu ruler Sashanka, Bengal had a very syncretic Hindu-Jaina tradition dating back to the Mahajanapada periods.
—Now Purushpur (modern day Islamized Peshawar)
it was one of the main centers of “Hindu” traditions, atleast a 1000 years before Buddhism (remember Takshashila and Chanakya)
Kushana rulers until Kanishka were ALL Hindus. Kanishka adopted Mahayaana tradition after a Dharmacharcha with Aswaghosha, a Sanskrit scholar of Mahayana Buddhist philosophy.
Even after the Kushanas, successive Hindu dynasties ruled that region until the Islamic genocides began.
5. Enjoy your Farsi but understand one thing clearly (and it doesnt take one to know Arabic or Farsi to understand that).
The Arab and the Persian hate each other, but Islam unites them against Non-Muslims, which at least I still count myself as.
Persian conversion to Islam was a big step-down for that great civilization, and within the first 100 years of subjugation under Islam, the Persian convert established his own identity by siding with the Shia-ah diktats. Since then, they have time and again asserted their superior civilizational qualities over the other Islamic power centers, ie, Arab and Turks.
But, and this is the BIG but, dear girl who goes by the name Thalassa, Islam and its ideological thrust still remains the overpowering strategic bulwark, when it comes to any interaction with the non-Islamic world.
India has attempted innumerable times to exploit all possible faultlines between the Arabs and Persians and Turks(the Central Asian ones), but the failures have far outweighed the success at the strategic level. Actually, the British got better results during their time.
Thalassa,
This is the best you can do? Identify me with “oh boy”? And Hades considers the ‘Hindu camp’ paranoid. How amusing you jokers are.
No, I am not a Middle-East expert, but there are very useful facts I know about it nevertheless. I have done good research work on the extent of camaraderie between the Nazis and Middle-Eastern leaderss, and how the Nazis played a critical role before, during and after the war to create extremist states in Egypt, Palestine and Iraq, and possibly even Syria.
No, I am not fluent in Persian or Arabic. I did however take a few lessons in Arabic, learnt the script very quickly, and know 200 words. It struck me how easy the script was to master, and how that must have contributed to the spread of literacy and uniformity in the early Islamic world. And I contrasted that with the complexity of Sanskrit, and how it affected Indian society.
So no, I do not know any Middle Eastern languages, but how would that impair my ability to intepret facts and construct the overall picture? If anything, relying upon sources written in more common languages, if done extensively, carefully and unbiasedly, is far more objective than the mendacity-laced propaganda passing as facts emanating from Middle Eastern sources (e.g. Pakistani terrorism mouthpieces claiming that Mumbai massacres were the task of Hindu terrorists). Your self-trunpeted expertise may be acting as a liability for you.
In terms of Hindu-Buddhist and Muslim-Buddhist relations, let us talk about three priceless Buddhist universities.
Nalanda. Buddhist. Built under patronage of Hindu kings.
Vikramshila. Buddhist. Built by Buddhist kings, but flourishing among a Hindu universe.
Odontapuri. Buddhist. Same as above.
And what is the common Muslim – Buddhit link here? Correct. All three were obliterated by Muslims, after extensive slaughter.
Plese put this in your Middle-Eastern kitbag, oh mighty expert !!
Oh boy – I called you a doppelganger of HHBB. Where did I allege that you and HHBB are the same person?
You wrote a huge comment and yet did not answer my questions. So am I to conclude that you speak neither Arabic nor Farsi, have no access to original source material on the region? Am I also to conclude that you do not have any special expertise on the Middle-East?
And yet you speak of countries with separate cultures, histories and geopolitics as if they can be explained away with the same simplistic paradigm.
Ask Iranians how they felt when the country they denounce every year by chanting “marg bar Amrika” (death to America) was dropping bombs on Baghdad. Here was a common unIslamic enemy dropping bombs on a Muslim country next door. What do you think Iranians did?
They remembered the relentless bombing of Tehran by Saddam and the chemical weapons he unleashed on Iranian border towns. I have heard more first person accounts of folks who lived through the Iran-Iraq war than I can count. And hence when I read such simplistic rhetoric as yours, I can only shrug and smile.
By the way, you have consistently spoken to me in a very patronizing manner. If you were debating this in person with me, would you also adopt a similar tone?
I don’t understand what it is about internet anonymity that allows people to debate in the most shrill, aggressive persona they can muster. It would be nice if you could check Arnab’s latest post and the comments by “The Dumb Graduate” to see how it’s done.
Oh, by the way, I already indicated to HHBB that I’m grateful he corrected my mistake on Shashanka. I stand corrected. Regarding the rest of your comment on the history of the Indian subcontinent, I think we stray way off topic by going on that track, so we can leave that aside for a while.
But I did want to say that –
a) Kushanas were very Hellenisized and Persianized. They came from Western China. Kanishka was clearly Buddhist.
Kushana rulers until Kanishka were most certainly not all Hindus (notice how subtle things can be without the use of all caps?).
Of all the influences on the Kushanas, Hinduism comes down the list from Greek and Zoroastrian (as demonstrated by the extensive archeological evidence they left).
I’m astonished at the leap of fantasy that would place the Kushanas smack in the middle of a Hindu universe. What will you claim next – that Alexander was Hindu as well?
b) Gandhara was part of of the region of Bactria, a Greek colony and subsequently independent Greek kingdom. Hence perhaps the Greek claim has as much merit as ours.
But as I said, this is not germane at all to the current discussion so perhaps should be left alone for the time being.
@ Thalassa
When you say Kushanas were Hellenized and Persianed, you are talking about pre-islamic Persia.
If you have read Avesta (which I assume you would do as you know Persian), you would have realized how close to Vedic Hinduism they were.
Same applies to Hellenic culture of Bacria.
I can clearly see that you DO NOT understand the fact that pre-Islamic cultures of those regions, irrespective of their ethnic identification (Hunas, Hellenic, Scythians,etc) was clearly very Hindu.
Like a good pseudo-secular, you do have trouble understanding the fact that Hinduism transcended ethnic idnetification.
@ Thalassa : “Where did I allege that you (Oh boy) and HHBB are the same person?”
When you said “So Hara Hara and Oh boy, which one of you is it?”. This can be interpreted as either “which one of you two is an expert”, or “which persona are you adopting now”. You must be clearer next time. If you were intending the former, you have conveyed a wrong impression to both oh boy and me (Shan, an opportunity for you to enter, dumur bajaate bajaate).
@ Thalassa : “You wrote a huge comment and yet did not answer my questions. So am I to conclude that you speak neither Arabic nor Farsi, have no access to original source material on the region?
Every single one of your questions has been answered. I categorically stated that I do not know Arabic or Farsi. I also stated this does not impair at all the ability to see the full picture. I further added that extensive reliance on mendacity-ridden propaganda passing as “Middle Eastern sources” is a liability. That may be preventing you from seeing the full picture.
This is also blocking you from gaining even a basic understanding of Indian history. When you cough up childish comments like “Shashank was a Buddhist”, how can we ever expect you to understand even a fraction of the gruelling pain, blood-chilling horror, and incalculable trauma that Hindus have suffered over the last 1,300 years?
@ Thalassa : “Ask Iranians how they felt when the country they denounce every year by chanting “marg bar Amrika” (death to America) was dropping bombs on Baghdad. Here was a common unIslamic enemy dropping bombs on a Muslim country next door. What do you think Iranians did? They remembered the relentless bombing of Tehran by Saddam and the chemical weapons he unleashed on Iranian border towns. I have heard more first person accounts of folks who lived through the Iran-Iraq war than I can count”.
Well bully for you. How doea that affect, even by an iota, the overall message of the Koran to convert victim nations by force? How does that alter, even by an inch, the exploding horror that current events are suggesting the world may witness?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7756695.stm
I have categorically stated :
(1) The overall Muslim – non-Muslim relationship is that of the former dominating the latter. Either by brutality, force, coercion, or overpopulation. Many, perhaps the vast majority in the former may not support this, but they are completely powerless in the face of the extremists who inevitably occupy the throne of power in Islamic societies.
(2) There may be a few Cinderella Islamic kingdoms where this is not the dominant philosophy. Tunisia, Morocco, UAE, Bahrain. Please note that these are mere motifs in the overall Islamic taperstry, and we should not allow these “exceptions” to divert us from the clear picture the overall jigsaw is displaying. Even Turkey, that once trumpeted ‘bastion’ of secularism. I have spoken to enough Turks to assess the overall picture. A hard core sturdily secular core, fighting tooth and claw to preserve liberalism, slowly giving way to the inevitable tide of fanaticism. And is this not the story of all “not yet fanatic” Musliam nations?
(3) Muslim nations, especially 100% Muslim ones, may tear each other to pieces. (My hypothesis is this is a result of the fanaticism their belief system has created …. they need their sacrifical lambs, and thus when all other citims have been slaughtered, they have no option but to fall upon themselves.) Thus Shia/Sunni genocides, Pakistan’s massacre of Ahmadiyas, the bitterness between Fatah & Hamas (admittedly many other factors are responsible for this).
However, at the very sign of another belief-system raising its head, erstwhile deadly Muslim fores, will block out their animosity and eat alive Non-Muslim foes. Only after the muffled cry of the last non-Muslim victim dies down, will they resume their hatred. Thus we have the obliteration of Vijaynagar by combined Muslim armies. Thus we have Bangldesh’s sickening covert rapproachment with Pakistan barely 30 years after a genocide.
This is the point. You cited Iranian support of the USA while the latter killed Iraqis. How has that alered even by a hair the fanatically anti-US poilicy pursued by Ahmednijad?
Do you see my point? Your detailed notebooks on exciting tales of colourful Middle-Eastern individuals grappling with the complexities of cultural and geo-political differences in an explosive war zone, all collected from ‘local sources’, may provide hours of distraction. But these are merely hors d’œuvres and dénouements. The clear overall picture is that of a rising and menacing faith, spreading its tentacles over the world, choking milions of hapless, innocent victims in its wake.
Take the example of the Pakistani terrorist in Mumbai. His overall mission included the massacre of innocent Jews. Why?
Why does Islamic teaching consistently emphasise the universality of the Islamic doctrine over national borders? What does the concept of Ummah mean?
Thus while I may find your interesting snippets and observations from local sources vaguely exciting, please pardon me if I completely discount tehir worth when you try to use those to distort the import of the overall picture, which is abundantly obvious and sharply clear.
@ Thalassa “By the way, you have consistently spoken to me in a very patronizing manner. If you were debating this in person with me, would you also adopt a similar tone”?
That was not my intention. It was more intended as tongue-in-cheek response. Most people smile and move on. Obviously you are more sensitive than that. Alright, I will be more gentel with you from next time. Accept my apologies for any unintended slight.
As you are an expert on Middle-Eastern affairs, what is your view of the Nazi influence on Islamism in the Middle-East?
my 2 cents…
Although it is frustrating to have a pesky neigbour, i think it will be counter intutive to escalate issues with pakistan.
Pakistan is a failed state and ISI is a state within the state that marches to its own agenda. I am not sure all the top ranks among pak were the mastermind behind the attack.
Forcing pak to deploy more troops against india means more freedom in the lawless areas of Afghan-pak border where these guys get trained on throwing grenades.
Pak have had their share of attacks and it is essentially hostage to the islamic radicals they had trained against India. Where do these guys come from. I believe from the madrassas funded by Saudis.
We are all in this together and we should get to the causes , one of them being block funding by Saudis to these schools that teaches a narrow and antiquated view of a religion and world in general. 2) Provide logistic support to pak already done by US to eliminate these radical elements.
I believe Pak does provide safe haven and logistic support to terrorism network, but getting all their military posted against India would just end up being counterproductive.
my 2 cents…
Well, something positive, very faint, very flickering, almost will o’ the wisplike, but positive nevertheless, has arisen after the display shameful ineptitude and cringing sycophancy that typifies the Indian arena of ‘politics’ (my friend calls it ‘potty-licks’, but that’s rude)
and ‘human right’.
“CHURCH BLASTS – 11 GET DEATH”
DH News Service, Bangalore:
DECCAN HERALD, 29-30 NOV 2008
A special court on Saturday handed out death sentence to 11 people and life imprisonment to 12 members of a banned religious sect for bomb blasts in several churches in the state in 2000.
The 23 belong to a sect called Deendar Channabasaveshwara Anjuman founded by Moulana Siddique in 1924 in Gulbarga district.
Besides Karnataka, the sect members are also accused of setting off explosions in churches in neighbouring Andhra Prad-esh and Goa.
================================================================
(HHBB says) If it were not for Mumbai, God knows which other poor Indian sadhu obliviously walking down the road would get shanghai’d and jailed by the ATS for these chruches!! All to prove that ‘Hindus are terrorists too’ !!
Whoops, forgot the links for the above. It’s on http://www.samachar.com today, so you can see it there. The direct link is here.
After seeing this rather sad and equally hilarious video:
http://in.youtube.com/watch?v=kJ3OMo_r_Gs
I had an epiphany. I could picture our own brave soldier HHBB along with his ilk fighting out their war with the same conviction of this zealot here. Infact whenever i will read posts by our brave ‘analyst’ here, I will picture this idiots face to go with HHBB’s post. Your posts will always have a face mate from now on.
I am infact very thankful to you and the guy in this video and countless such othrs. In these dark times, you provide us lesser mortals with comic relief. Infact my humble suggestion would be that you also make a video about the wonderful ideas that you preach. You will bring happiness to million other people by this noble act of yours.
Hmmm. I see, Whatsinaname.
(a) Which part of my post do you find funny?, and more importantly
(b) Why do you find it funny?
Is it because it is untrue? If so where is it untrue?
Is it because it is so divorced from reality (like the analyst you show) that it is hilarious.
Prove it, and I will laugh with you.
If you cannot prove it, then you do not need to see my video to break out in idiotic peels of giggling. In your case, unlike anyone else here, all you have to do is stand in front of a mirror. You will split your behind exploding in laughter !!.
Hahahahahahahahahahahaha 🙂
RELIGION OF THE KUSHANAS
————————
An important point has been raised above er the religion of the Kushanas. Thalassa suggests it was highly westernised & Persianised, with Hinduism appearing very low on its rungs of importance. Oh Boy suggests a far stronger Hindu basis.
The issue is important as it typifies the Pakistani (& Western) position on Paksitan and Afghanistan. If you read their documents, you will end up with an impression that there never, ever was a trace of any Hindu influence in those areas. It was :
Bactria – Margiana
Indus
Caste-ridden aryans streaming through there to India; leaving a vaccuum there.
Zend Avesta composed there
Cyrus occupies
Greeks occupy
Bactrians
Sakas
Yuezhi Guishuangs (Kushans)
Huns
Glorious Islamic rule
The slightly more candid ones begrudgingly refer to a brief period of Maurya rule (of course Buddhist), & usurping Palas of Ohind.
That’s it. Nothing else. As if a whole region, referred to extensively in Hindu epics as famed as the Mahabharata, never saw any Hindu influence. I believe Hindu influence was, if not profound or dominant, significant in the region, far more than it is given credit for. Let us take the issue at hand, the religion of the Kushans.
The Kushanas prsided over a vast area, covering Tadjikistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan and parts of West India. It is only natural that their religions reflect their cosmopolitan empire. Thus, in Afghanistan, Zoroastroniasm would be strong. But Hinduism nevertheless exerted a profound influence on the Kushanas.
Per my knowledge, the first great Kushan king was Kujula Kadphises. His son, Bhim Taktoo, on immediate contact with Hindu Pakistan, adopted Hinduism.
Bhim Taktoo’s successor and nephew (?), Bhim Kadphises, was a Hindu as well. Itw as only in Kanishka’s rule that Buddhism was adopted.
Latter Kushan kings adopted the name Vasudeva, demonstrating their affinity with Hinduism.
Hindu deities also appear extensively on Kushan coins, along with Greek & Zoroastrian counterparts.
In fact, the Greek coinage erflects a continuation of artistic tradition alone, as only minor Grecian deities, those that were popular in Gandhara art, are depicted (like Hercules, Hephaiston and Helios).
The Zoroastrian and Indian ones display a far deeper religious conviction. Depictions of Ganesha, Rudra and Shiva, highly popular Hindu deities, abound in their coinage.
A nice photo of Shiva on Kanishkan coins, with ammted hair, moustache, crescent, Damburu, trident et all, can be seen at :
The main impact the Bactrians had on the Kushanas was the lending of their language.
A very intersting fact surrounds the etymology of the name Kadphises. Many scholars believe that it derived from the name of one of the early Kushana capital cities named Kapisa (now Begram). The Kushans had three capitals, Kapisa, Peshawar (Purushpura, may be the site of Pushkalavati) and Mathura.
The latter two have extensive Hindu links. For e.g., even after Peshawar was conquered continuouslay, by the Greeks, (reclaimed for India by the) Mauryans, Eucraditian Greeks, Parthians and then Kushans, it retained its ancient Sanskrit name, Purushpura.
However, what about Kapisa? That is well ensconced in the heart of Afghanistan? Well, surely it was built by the Achaemanids? So it must have a Zoroastrian genesis? Right? Wrong. Cyrus the great destroyed a city called Kapisa. So it was a well functioning city at the time of Cyrus, and thus likely to be Hindu.
Some scholars opine that Kapisa would have been influenced by the Massagatae, but IMHO this is incorrect, as the Massag. did not drink, and Panini, in the fifth century BC, hails Kapisa wine as fabled in the classical Indian world.
Thus the very name of the Kushana kings may be influenced by a city which may have beared Hindu roots.
So while it is far fetched to say that the Kushanas were in the vortex of a Hindu cultural influence, the impact of Hinduism in early Afghanistan and Pakistan is severely concealed and unfairly curtailed in scholarship.
“Thus the very name of the Kushana kings may be influenced by a city which may have BEARED Hindu roots.”
Did I really say that? Ooops. I meant “may have bore Hindu roots”.
How embarrassing !! 😦
HHBB
Thanks for spending the time to give a detailed support to my response to Thalassa.
Though I have to say that, I think Thalassa knew it all from the beginning. A little online research gives these details.
I feel she was just following the line she was, because it helps her polemic. Even if it means one has to peddle a few lies. JNU historians have been doing that for years.
Oh boy, I’m letting the Kushanas discussion go. Completely pointless and does not illuminate the matter at hand one bit.
Of course I haven’t read the Avesta in the original :)! I speak and read modern Farsi, not Avestan.
Hellenic culture is close to Vedic culture? Ha ha ha!!! Ok, now that you’ve said this, I think I should send over some of my ubernationalistic Greek friends to this blog to tell you exactly what Hellenic culture is and isn’t.
Your ambition is awe-inspiring. Not content to gobble up Buddhism and Sikhism, you want a piece of the Hellenic pie too. Ti saxlamares les Kyrie!!
The Shiva bhakta HHBB gave an iconography of Lord Shiva from Kushana period.
Here is Vishnu from Bactria.
The iconography is from the Gandhara school which originates from the Greek sculpture schools.
Will be hard for Thalassa to dismiss. Its Vishnu.
Ok HHBB, now on to your comments.
I meant “Which of you two is the Middle-east expert”? Apparently none.
That comment about knowing Arabic or Farsi was directed at Oh boy, not you. In fact my entire comment was directed at Oh boy. I wasn’t referring to you at all. I’m sorry that you spent all this energy to jump into a conversation where you weren’t really included.
“Do you see my point? Your detailed notebooks on exciting tales of colourful Middle-Eastern individuals grappling with the complexities of cultural and geo-political differences in an explosive war zone, all collected from ‘local sources’, may provide hours of distraction. But these are merely hors d’œuvres and dénouements.”
You sir, absolutely disgust me. Are you seriously calling the accounts of people who lived through an 8 year full scale war mere hors d’oeuvres?
I’d really like to see you say this face to face to my Iranian friends who’s lives were ripped apart by the war. But then, it’s so easy to hide behind anonymous handles and spew hate like this.
Ugh! I cannot believe your arrogance that you think you can glibly pronounce on people’s lives without having the slightest bit of familiarity with what they lived through. Heif!
Go wallow in your own cesspool of hate.
Hara hara bom bom,
And Hades considers the ‘Hindu camp’ paranoid.
?
To begin with, I would very much like to know where I’ve used the phrase “Hindu camp”.
Hades
The Times of Bullshit
@HHBB:
Nope I will not jump in. Normally you amuse me. But right now I am in no mood to even be entertained by fundamentalists of any ilk.
We can engage again when my mood is better.
Mumbai locals helped us, arrested Jihadi tells cops
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumbai_locals_helped_us_terrorist_tells_cops/articleshow/3774106.cms
Did some Mumbai locals provide support to the Pakistani terrorists?
Azam Amir Kasab, the only Pakistani terrorist nabbed alive, has revealed names and addresses of at least five people from the city who helped the terror operation.
Sources said that help like, providing shelter, taking them around and showing places, passing information on police stations and nakabandhis were given by these locals.
—————————————————
I always wondered who picked them up from the boats (after they landed on the shore) in several cars and drove them to the various locations – CST, Taj Hotel etc?
Now we know.
@ Thalassa : “Oh boy, I’m letting the Kushanas discussion go. Completely pointless and does not illuminate the matter at hand one bit.”
Well, you were the one who foisted the plight of the Iranians in a twenty-year old war, plum in the middle of a discussion on a fresh massacre of Hindus by Muslims. No relevance at all. Citizens of a brutal Shia state suffering under the brutality of a Sunni state has no bearing on the hatred Muslim Pakistanis bear towards Hindus. Yet you try to assuage the impact of our latest horror by raising irrelevant sob stories.
And this is while the pools of Hindu blood have not even dried yet. Your comments above certainly do not suggest a display of dignity.
@ Thalassa : “Hellenic culture is close to Vedic culture? Ha ha ha!!! Ok, now that you’ve said this, I think I should send over some of my ubernationalistic Greek friends to this blog to tell you exactly what Hellenic culture is and isn’t.”
Please read carefully. Oh boy said “Hellenic BACTRIAN” culture. And there are close parallels.
In fact, there are even parallels between Vedism and not only Greek culture, but pre-Greek as well. They may have derived common elements from a pre-Indo Aryan cultural sub-stratum, rather than Vedism exerting a dominant influence, the fact remains that there was significant mutual influence.
For example, we all know that the great Indo-Aryan god Dyaus-Pitar was the forerunner of Zeus and Jupiter, the main Graeco-Roman deities. Varuna can be identified with Uranus. Some may argue these are examples of cross fertilisation of ideas. However, what would you say about the near perfect correlation between the strong parallels between Dionysius and Siva (or sometimes his son Skanda) :
Skanda is Agnibhu, Dio is Pyrigenes … both mean born of fire
Sk is Kartikkeya (son of Pleiades), Dio is Briseus (son of the nymphs)
Sk is Sharojonmo (born in the reeds), Dio is Limnaios (from the marsh)
Shiva is Prthamaj (first born), Dio is Protogonus (first born)
Shiva is also called Bhaskara (luminous), same as the Orphic Dio name of Phanes.
Further, there are strong parallels between “Shri” and Ceres, the goddess of vegetation. The Sanskrit yugas bears close parallels to the Greek ages (see Hesiod’s “Work and Days”). Black Demeters (like the one in Phygalia) have some resemblance with Kali.
While cross-fertilisation of religious icons and ideas is a common theme in ancient cultures (Marduk & Tiamat vs Indra & Vrtra, deionysious vs Osiris), Vedic Indo-Greek commonalities appear far more deep and extensive than that.
There are innumerable links. If you are interested, we can discuss. If you wish to follow up yourself, two good books are “The Indian Theogony” (Sukumari Bhattacharya) and “Gods of love and ecstasy” (Alain Danielou). Donald Mackenzie and Andrew Lang have also published important articles on this.
There were even stronger links with pre-Avestan Persian deities. Not only were Indra, Vayu, Mitra (Mithra), Nasatya (Naonhaithya) and Vrithraghna (Verethragna) the same, there is a strong correlation between Yama / Yami and Jamshied / Yim, even in the primordial incest tale. The Vedic Varuna is nothing but the anthropomorphised Varan, the great sky principle of Persia.
Everyone knows of the Vedic deities of the Mitannis mentioned in Bogoz Koi. Many also know that the Tel el-Amarna letter refer to Mitanni princes by Sanskrit nanmes (Arthatamo, Dushratha, Shootarno).
However, many are not yet aware that many Kassites who ruled Babylon between 1750 and 1200 BC bore Sanskrit names (like Suyas, Marutas).
Of course, there are significant differences. There are concepts in one that are completely reversed in the other. In some cases, they are missing altogether (e.g Avestan Fravashees). But even so, there were very strong cultural and religious links.
@ Thalassa : “That comment about knowing Arabic or Farsi was directed at Oh boy, not you. In fact my entire comment was directed at Oh boy. I wasn’t referring to you at all. I’m sorry that you spent all this energy to jump into a conversation where you weren’t really included”.
Thanks for your concern, that’s very sweet; but I didn’t mind at all in spending a bit of energy in pointing out some errors you had been making. I am also frankly amazed at your insistence on conducting a dialogue on a general blogsite. While everyone will maintain the self-discipline to ensure participants can discuss and debate in a structural and logical manner, rather than descending in to a clamorous free for all, if you think that it is a rigid and closed dialogue, you are sadly mistaken. Try using the e-mail for that.
@ Thalassa : “You sir, absolutely disgust me. Are you seriously calling the accounts of people who lived through an 8 year full scale war mere hors d’oeuvres?”
Well, for the purpose of discussing the massacre by Muslims of Hindus and Jews in Mumbai (again), your diversionary yarn on the suffering of victims under intra-Muslim wars 20 years ago is even less than a denouement, it is completely irrelevant.
What will you bring in next? Suffering of the Sunnis under Hulaku?
@ Thalassa “I’d really like to see you say this face to face to my Iranian friends who’s lives were ripped apart by the war.”
Well, I met 2 such Iranian families in North Vancouver quite recently. Don’t know if they were your friends or not.
@ Thalassa “I cannot believe your arrogance that you think you can glibly pronounce on people’s lives without having the slightest bit of familiarity with what they lived through. Go wallow in your own cesspool of hate”.
Really? I do not see how pointing out that your bon mots on Iran are not exactly mot juste on the occasion of Hindu massacres, amounts to spewing hatred. The only hatred I see here is what seems to be your complete contempt of Hindu lives. All you can weep about are your Shia friends who were affected twenty years ago. And this is while Hindu corpses are being ferried out in a steady stream in front of our eyes. While their blood has not even dried.
Shame on you.
@ Shan “Nope I will not jump in”.
Thank God.
@ Shan “But right now I am in no mood to even be entertained by fundamentalists of any ilk”.
Be careful about semantics, they sometimes reveal your true picture. Are you suggesting fundamentalists merely ‘entertain’ you? Then Islamic fundamentalist terrorists perpetuating their orgy of violence merely act as a distraction for you? To me it is not distraction. The bloodied corpses of 200 people is a horrific chapter in the ongoing saga of slaughter of Hindus.
I hope it was sloppy writing on your part and not a Freudian slip.
@ Shan “We can engage again when my mood is better”.
Take your time, Shan. I am really not missing you. Take a long time off …. please.
Please.
Dear greatbong,
I have taken the liberty to just quote a paragraph from your blog as it so aptly described my view point and i could not have put it in better words.
Hope you dont mind.
A Regular Reader
Arnab,
Any thoughts on the Kerala moron going around as the CM?
Will look forward to reading it.
Thanks,
Pallavi
@ Thalassa
Take it easy.
The more you write, the more your ignorance shows about the history of pre-Islamic Middle East.
Write to Dr Balaji Hebbar, Professor of World Religions at the George Washington University, Washinton Univeristy.
You can lookup his email with a little google search.
Stick to commenting about the economy. You were good there.
oops typo
meant George Washington University, Washington DC.
Hara Hara Bom Bom,
Since I’ve recieved no answer, and you’ve posted something after my question, do I assume that you were lying?
I would very much appreciate an apology, then, for a lie that tried to misrepresent me.
Regards,
Hades
The Times of Bullshit
Hades,
As usual, you are wrong not on one level, but many.
The reason I did not even bother to respond to your bizarre claim was because I found the claim petty, snivelling and frankly, ignorant. I did not wish to waste everyone’s reading time by indulging you in your small-mindedness. But since you persist, I’ll have to respond. So for what it’s worth, here goes.
Quotation marks can stand for a number of things. One of them is direct quotations. Another is irony. Where irony is intended, to distinguish it from direct quotations, single quotation marks are used. Thus I used the term ‘Hindu camp’ rather than “Hindu camp”.
This is to signify that so called seculars are always alleging that we ‘extremists’ are not true Hindus. The sarcasm intended follows with abundant clarity from the punctuation, context as well as the recent prior post where you tried to falsely imply I was posting on another blogsite in an uncivil manner.
Pick up any book on basic grammar and they will inform you that ‘single quotation’ marks are used to convey irony. I cannot believe I am having to discuss the finer points of grammar on a blogsite. Neither can I believe that not only are you ignorant of basic grammar, you are ranting and raving about a drab comment to humour your unbelievably narrow-minded vanity.
You need to metaphorically thicken your skin. And thin your skull.
The reason I did not even bother to respond to your bizarre claim was because I found the claim petty, snivelling and frankly, ignorant. I did not wish to waste everyone’s reading time by indulging you in your small-mindedness. But since you persist, I’ll have to respond. So for what it’s worth, here goes..
I love these “I did not wish to” but “I’ll have to respond” beginnings you have to your posts.
About the punctuation thingy:
You said:
1)Quotation marks can stand for a number of things. One of them is direct quotations. Another is irony. Where irony is intended, to distinguish it from direct quotations, single quotation marks are used. Thus I used the term ‘Hindu camp’ rather than “Hindu camp”.
2) Pick up any book on basic grammar and they will inform you that ‘single quotation’ marks are used to convey irony. I cannot believe I am having to discuss the finer points of grammar on a blogsite. Neither can I believe that not only are you ignorant of basic grammar, you are ranting and raving about a drab comment to humour your unbelievably narrow-minded vanity.
Wrong.
Direct quotations are represented using both single as well as double quotation marks. It depends on the publisher’s/author’s style.
Check this entry on the OED website
http://www.askoxford.com/asktheexperts/jargonbuster/q-r/quotationmark?view=uk
Here are some of the sentences from that site:
• He said, `That is nonsense.’
• `That,’ he said, `is nonsense.’
• `That, however,’ he said, `is nonsense.’
• Did he say, `That is nonsense’?
• He asked, `Is that nonsense?’
Thus, both ‘Hindu camp’ and “Hindu camp” could mean that you were quoting me.
To quote you, “I cannot believe I am having [sic] to discuss the finer points of grammar on a blogsite.”
—————————————————————
Sigh! Why couldn’t you just apologise and move on, my dear man? I mean History is one thing but did you have to force me to prove you wrong even where punctuation is concerned?
You need to metaphorically thicken your skin. And thin your skull
As usual, I’ll side-step the ad hominem.
Hades,
Hades,
This just gets more and more hilarious (sic). Now you are forcing me to question your ability to comprehend basic English. Where in my comment did I say single punctuations PRECLUDE quotation marks? I am suggesting they also convey irony.
Any reader with an ounce of common sense can easily distinguish between the two scenarios. Why can’t you?
What is wrong with you? Are you on substance abuse or something?
Hara hara bom bom
Where in my comment did I say single punctuations PRECLUDE quotation marks?
You said it here: “Where irony is intended, to distinguish it from direct quotations, single quotation marks are used.”
Correction: Single quotation marks are used to convey irony as well as direct quotations.
And here:”Pick up any book on basic grammar and they will inform you that ‘single quotation’ marks are used to convey irony.”
Correction: Pick up any book on basic grammar and they will inform you that single quotation marks are used to convey irony as well as direct quotations.
😛
No problem, my man. Grammar is tough, especially for a language as weird as English. I, of course, would advise you not to use it as an offensive point.
As I said, at least here, apologising would have been a less embarrassing option.
What is wrong with you? Are you on substance abuse or something?
As usual, I’ll side-step the ad hominem. Anyways, let’s end this little grammar lesson that we have going on here. Important as grammar is, there are more important things afoot.
Hades
P.S: Read up on the usage of sic while you’re at it.
beautifully analysed.
Hades,
What, you are still persisting with your immature ranting?
About your point on ‘as well’, you will notice in the adult world that patently obvious things are not explicitly spelt out, they are understood by all.
So in the statement “Hitler was a tough man … so was Shivraj Patil”, it is so patently obvious to all that the latter is an effete dunce, that there is no need to add “I am only kidding about the Shivraj Patil part”.
Similarly for “Einstein. He was an idiot”. No need to add “I am only joking. He was a genius”.
However, for the statement “Chidambaram is a fool”, one needs to be more careful. Someone losing his life’s savings on the Stock Market may be genuinely railing at Chidambaram’s incompetent laissez faire failings. Or it could be someone who respects Chidambaram, and is taking a dig at his exalted position. As this is unclear, the context is important, and clarification is merited.
Thus you see, the comment “as well” is so obvious, that it does not require spelling out. I am amazed that in the Hades universe such statements require specification. Scary !!
I do not need to apologise to you. I need to apologise for GB & his readers for having to subject others to a useless dialogue, merely to remedy your abysmal state of knowledge.
There is no embarrassment on my part, apart from having to constantly engage someone with the mental maturity of a five year old. However, from your unbelievably naiive comments, if there are any broken eggs, your face is splattered with yolk.
Please note that these are not ad hominems. JediMaster (hah, neither Jedi, nor Master) calling me a liar when in everyone of his posts I prove it is the very opposite, that is an ad hominem. My observations on you are realistic assessment of your severe shortcomings.
A career cousellor will tell you exactly the same. And then hand you a bill!!
Why do I need to follow up on ‘sic’? …. Rhetorical question.
Hara hara bom bom,
Surely you don’t need to post anonymously, my man. 😛
As I said, it’s all right, everyone makes mistakes. No need to hide because of them.
Hades
The Times of Bullshit
Yes, I do, as I am scared of your ignorance ! I can deal with intelligent discourse, but the moment my opponent starts displaying retarted behaviour, my jaw falls, my head starts spinning.
And of such opponents, you are the alpha and the omega , the king and the queen. After all, your business is the Times of Bullshit !!
Hey..HHBB
dont waste your time with the likes of Hades.
After they run out of their pseudo secular distorted history material, they end up this way.
The real lesson from these Jihadi attacks have been that, the pseudo-secular upper middle class of India is not safe from the clutches of Islamists. Thats the social strata, that has enough education and resources to take the lead against Jihadis, intellectually and physically. Yet time and again it has failed in creating the response that was expected out of it.
What had until now been the fate of the poor constable from Haryana, the daily passenger on the locals or the Hindu villagers from Bengal and Assam will now be shared by the 5 star crowd.
Atleast for selfish reasons (not for protecting India or Hindus), the upper middle class must act now.
I was obliging Hades as I have pity for the mentally challenged. But I agree with you, no point in wasting more time on teaching him how to read and write and other such rubbish.
I 100% agree with you that the problem has extended beyond the ‘ignorable lowe middle class Hindu’ bracket. I am not sure about the glitteratti 5 star crowd. They soubnd shrill, but like empty vessels. However, once corporations get hit, rockets start flying.
I hope we shall see far more changes than before.
This was definitely India’s 9-11.
However, our future emperor Rahul Gandhi was partying on Saturday when the Mumbai terror attacks were on.
What a disgrace this Rahul Gandhi is for India !
And the Congress party wants him to be our future Prime Minister.
It seems that the Gandhi family has no sympathy towards our nation,they were partying when people are bleeding.
Here’s the article from the “Daily Pioneer”
http://www.dailypioneer.com/138663/Partying-Rahul-raises-hackles.html
Partying Rahul raises hackles
Staff Reporter | New Delhi
Even as the nation felt searing pain and anger over the death of more than 195 people— including foreigners — in the terrorist attack on Mumbai, Congress scion Rahul Gandhi merrily partied. According to a report carried on Monday by a tabloid, Mail Today, Congress general secretary and heir apparent Rahul Gandhi went partying on Saturday with his pals at a farmhouse on Delhi’s outskirts.
The ‘Prince’ partied hard, till 5 in the morning, at the ‘sangeet’ ceremony for the wedding of Samir Sharma, one of his childhood friends. The gathering was at a sprawling farmhouse at Radhey Mohan Chowk, the haven of people who lead charmed lives, beyond Chhhatarpur. A close aide of Rahul confirmed his presence at the function.
“Rahulji was in Rajasthan on Saturday. He attended four rallies there and returned to Delhi at 10 pm. Later, he went to this party that was pre-scheduled,” said a staff member on the condition of anonymity. He said that Rahul was at the farmhouse with Samir Sharma, the US-based furniture designer son of Captain Satish Sharma, the late Rajiv Gandhi’s flying partner. Capt Sharma had nursed the Gandhi family’s pocketborough, Rae Bareli, till Sonia Gandhi chose to contest from there in 2004.
“Why raise such a hue and cry over a small and pre-scheduled party?” he asked. Gandhi’s media coordinator Pankaj Shankar, on the other hand, refused comment on the issue. “I am not a spokesperson, I just coordinate among mediapersons and Rahul Gandhi. Congress spokesperson Jayanti Natarajan has clarified the issue,” said Shankar.
On Sunday, Rahul’s sister Priyanka Vadra had caused a flutter by saying that late Indira Gandhi would have “made us very proud” by the way she would have reacted to the Mumbai terror strike.
As per the report published by the tabloid, Saturday night’s ‘sangeet’ was a lavish affair. Leena Musafir, the sister of the woman with whom Samir is getting married, and her husband Inder, hosted it. Over 800 guests, including regulars at Page 3 dos, attended the party. Later, however, Rahul was quoted in another tabloid, Metro Now, saying, “It seems as if someone entered my house and slapped me.”
The tabloid stated that Rahul made this comment while addressing a meeting of the Congress Working Committee (CWC), which had reportedly been called to discuss the impact of the attack on the party and the country.
Hades dude leave poor HHBB alone yaar. 😀
But before u leave him alone I’d just like to repeat HHBBs words :
HHBB said: Where irony is intended, to distinguish it from direct quotations, single quotation marks are used.
Then he said : Where in my comment did I say single punctuations PRECLUDE quotation marks?
😀 😀 😀 :D:D 😀
ROTFL @ this from HHBB : “I cannot believe I am having [sic] to discuss the finer points of grammar on a blogsite.”
You sound like Apu from the Simpsons dude!!!! 😛
Hahahaha, I see. 🙂 Another retard now wades in to the discussion in the form of Ravi. (Hee hee). Laurel & Hardy.
Welcome to the world of grown-ups, Ravi. Now read the following two points.
1. All grown-up knows the basic fact that both single and double quotation marks are used for quotes. This is so obvious, that it is an axiom, i does not require emphasising. All adults are aware that other grown-ups are fully cognizant of this fact. What you are bizarrely concluding does not even appear in the minds of anyone with more than half a brain cell.
2. So no further clarification was required. But even then, there was further clarification!! If you read the post, the comment succeeding it is “The sarcasm intended follows with abundant clarity from the punctuation, context as well as the recent prior post”.
To anyone with half a brain cell or more, this signifies that you need the punctuation & context to understand. The inherent meaning of this is the punctuation is not enough ‘on its own’. The inherent meaning of that is the punctutation can stand for something else as well.
Do you understand? Can I make it any simpler? I feel like Telsa having a discussion with Lalloo (hahahah).
Incidentally, based on Hades request, I had also posted detailed comments, with clear references (including weblinks) on the ‘love story’ between the Nazis and Islam. How Hitler & Himmler both praised Islam effusively, wishing that Europeans were Muslim, how Nazis assisted Islam before, during, and after the war, and the Nazi-Islamist nexus today.
GreatBong was not comfortable with posting it in this thread, and has deleted it (kindly informing me why). Thus even this allegation, that the Nazis & Hindu mutually respected each other, falls squat on face.
Your & Hades’ nice double act is touching. Perhaps you should go to California and tie the knot and start gyrating to music from ‘Erasure’!! Hee hee hee
And do you know who you remind me of? Sonny Wortznik from the movie “Dog Day Afternoon”. Check it out.
Pfffff Gfffff Fhhhh hahahahaha 🙂 🙂 🙂
I found the following flyer lying on the road :
==================
THE THICK BRIGADE
This is to announce the grand opening of the “Thick Brigade”, an organisation exclusively devoted to look after the needs of thick people.
We currently have 2 full-time, permanent members, Hades and Ravi.
Welcome, one and all. Come and meet new people. Come and make new friends.
Anyone can join our Thick Brigade, but you have to prove that you are genuinely thick. Not normal stupidity, like consistently getting kicked out of jobs, or failing the same exam three times. No, I am talking about a thickness so profound, that it makes two planks of wood look svelte, makes numbskulls look didactic. I am talking Guinness Book of World Records thickness.
Anyone who has made a single intelligent comment on this blogsite is automatically debarred from our institution.
You are also debarred if you can walk straight, dress yourself or tie your own shoe-laces. However, if you drool while drinking milk, and more than half the contents dribble out, we may consider your application even if you do not walk funny.
Please send a self-addressed envelope to xxxxxxxx. Please do not send any e-mails, as frankly, they are too complicated for us. Also, do not, I strictly repeat, not, include any punctuation marks in your letter. Full stops are ok, and we have nearly mastered the concept of comma. But Hades got a letter last week which used a semi-colon, and fainted.
Thick brigade is looking forward to expanding our current base of two. Please join us if you feel you are thick enough.
Maybe you should show this to the Thick Brigade….
Apu….er….HHBB now: All grown-up knows the basic fact that both single and double quotation marks are used for quotes
HHBB before OED link: Where irony is intended, to **distinguish it from direct quotations**, **single quotation marks** are used. Thus I used the term ‘Hindu camp’ **rather than** “Hindu camp”
need I say anything more…. 😀 😀
and good of GB to strop yr hate propaganda
THICK BRIGADE’S MEMO …. 5 December 2008
From RAVI (permanent thick member 1 of 2)
===============
Dear fellow thick members,
As you can see, I have continued with my thick rantings today. I know HHBB has tried to explain it to me, but I could not understand it as I am so thick.
I have noticed that HHBB has tried explaining it to me a few times. But it is futile, I will not understand, as I am so thick.
I cite one para of HHBB. My interpretation of this is selective, and I cannot see the full import. This is because I am thick.
I appreciate that even though the para needed no further clarification, even this clarification is available in HHBB’s second para above. But I will have to give up on this, as I cannot deal with two paras together. This is because I am lazy as well as thick.
One advantage of being thick is that thick people can spew rubbish against Hindu nationalists as inspired by Nazism, even when there is no proof. And when proof is cited that it is Islam and Nazism that were very close, I can dismiss this as hate propaganda. We are allowed this lassitude by society because we are so thick.
HHBB’s description of me as the character in Dog Day afternoon is only partially correct. The ‘urges’ are the same, but I am not intelligent like Sonny. This is because I am so thick.
I will continue in my thick postings. Intelligent people may find it an irritation to respond to my posts, as they are busy people, and prefer posting intelligent comments. However, I do not mind, as I have a lot of time on my hands. This is because I am unemployed. And thick.
Thanking you,
Yours very thickly,
Ravi the thick
Ravi & Hades,
Facile jokes aside (I was only kidding, hope you didn’t take offence) :-). I will take one last attempt and close the issue.
For example, if you say “boys wear trousers to distinguish themselves from girls”, this does not mean you are saying girls never wear trousers. This fact is so obvious, that you do not need to say “boys wear trousers to distinguish themselves from girls …… but some girls wear trousers ‘as well’.”
I will try to find a way to apprise readers of the mutual bonhomie the Nazis shared with Islam. As GB mentioned to me, this is not the right thread, so I’ll desist on this thread. However, if a suitable opportunity presents itself, I’ll post it, as it is something very important.
This is not my ‘hatred of Islam’, but my caution against it. Islam has many fantastic attributes. Its adherents are dedicated, united, spirited and progressive (as far as they are concerned). However, because of its attenuated robustness, it can easily be manipulated by evil leaders to commit horrific atrocities. Thus the Nazis wished to utilise the violent side of Islam. It is something we should note and guard ourselves against. Thus world terrorist movements sooner or later gravitate towards Islamist extremists, like Sikh separatists, ETA, ULFA, Naxals etc. This is something we should guard against.
If Islam can be used for good, it can change the world in one decade what the Christains could not do in a hundred, or Hindus could nto do in a thousand.
Hades had also mentioned to Reena Singh that the Nazis took a laissez faire attitude to the Mufti ‘until the war started’, as they wanted to court Britain. This is not entirely correct. Germany had been surreptitiously supporting the entire Palestine movement with money, materials and arms throughout, possibly as far back as the early 1930s. It is true that they curtailed their activities in 1936 in deference to expected British ties, but this rapidly changed in 1937, with Adolf Eichmann and Herbert Hagen visiting Palestine, meeting the Grand Mufti, and establishing a close relationship with him.
Extended visits by the leader of Hitler Youth, Baldur von Schirach, and the head of the Abwehr (counterintelligence service), Wilhelm Canaris, quickly followed. From 1933, al Husseini had been regularly meeting local Nazi representatives and openly expressing admiration for Hitler. During these meetings, he served as a liaison for the Muslim Brotherhood to the Nazis.
Between 1936-1939, Adolf Eichmann, oversaw funding from the SS to al Husseini and his associates, to aid their efforts in encouraging a revolt in the region.
Hades further suggested to Reena that the Mufti’s actions of causing the death of 5,000 Jewish children were not monumental in terms of war casualties. While this is correct, many scholars believe the Mufti should be held accountable in playing a key, if not exclusive role, for 500,000 deaths. His ceaseless hectoring of German, Rumanian, and Hungarian government, often leveraging his relationship with prominent Nazis like Himmler and Eichmann, played a key role in cancelling 480,000 exit visas granted to Jews (80,000 from Rumania, and 400,000 from Hungary).
As a result, all these Jews were deported to Polish concentration camps, and death. In 1947, a document presented to the United Nations Assembly included the Mufti’s June 28, 1943 letter to the Hungarian Foreign Minister requesting deporting Hungarian Jews to Poland. The UN document included a grim annotation: “As a sequel to this request 400,000 Jews were subsequently killed.”
The Mufti was a horrible man. Just thought you’d like to know.
“The death of both the innocent people and the terrorists is meaningless. Such violent actions cannot stall the pace of development in the country” – says Sunil Gangopadhyay, eminent pseudo-secular poet and lintellectual.
Link: “Kolkata intellectuals mourn terror victims”:
http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/02/stories/2008120255351100.htm
Lets analyze here what this “pseudo-secular intellectual” says. According to him, death of both the innocent people and the terrorists are meaningless. Look, he doesn’t use a word of sympathy for the innocent victims of terror.
Further, by bracketing the innocent people and terrorists together he makes it clear that he doesn’t differentiate between them. Both are killed by violent actions and violent actions cannot stall the pace of development in the country.
So killing of an innocent people or a terrorist is a meaningless violent action. If a terrorist is killed by the police its meaningless violent action in his book.
And such killing of terrorists are supposed to stall the pace of development. If the terrorists are spared, the pace of development wont be hampered, possibly.
However, in this case he is confident that meaningless violence against terrorism won’t be able to stall the pace of development in India
@Pseudo-secularism screwed India:
Are you surprised to read that? :)))Guess what? I am not. Sunil Ganguly is very popular in Bangladesh. So he tries to appease both parties – Indians (who are astonished and shocked by these attacks), and some rabid Islamists in Bangladesh (who buy his books and are happy that the terrorists did this to Mumbai), and ultimately comes up with a foolish statement. He doesn’t care about the attacks.
You will be secretly surprised to know that every politician in Allimuddin street has had orgasmic feelings when they heard of the Mumbai blasts. You see the left wing mindset is very complex- they try to bend over backwards to show that they care for Islam. So let us take a hypothetical JNU girl Rita. Rita is liberal, uber-cool, has seven tattos on her body , drinks mocha cappuccino and hates anyone who uses the term “Muslim terrorists”. So on a first date with you, she tells you about how she is horrified about the backlash against minorities. That is, the act of terror perturbs her less than the backlash. She is the kind who bends over backwards and searches for persians, turks (common denominator being a Muslim) and what not and sleeps with them. This makes her feel that she is liberal. During an emotional love making session, a paki guy tells her that how he supports the terror in India. But she is the liberal….so she somehow bends over backwards and accpets his views. Again, this makes her feel more liberal. The next day at the coffee shop….she jumps at the throat of one guy who talks bad about Palenstine. Then the Mumbai blasts happen. The next day, you see her at the cafe again. She is quieter today. Biting her nails. So when someone tells her about the terror, she shrugs and says that this is the price we pay for being liberal. She still would not call those guys who attacked “terrorists” as that would not make her “feel” liberal. Then she will give you some esoteric roundabout view as to how the blasts were a result of minority injustice and whatever.
You see this secret love between left liberal people and Islam is very complex. You see my ex gf is from California. Shes a liberal and an atheist. But somehow that liberal things overwhelms the atheist part. So she sings effusive praise of Sam Harris till he mentions in his latest book about how he thinks that every religion is bad, but how Islam as especially bad and illustrates the case of killing during the riots of 47. She is american but said to me that “Sam Harris is wrong there about Islam”, even though she is ignorant about the historical facts. My illustration is to prove that natioanality may be different, but this strange respect and support for Islam is a common denominator for communists all over the world. So you can never convince any liberal to be rational. In a way, they are as deluded as Ann Coulter. My theory is that there is a mutual respect between Islam and Communism due to their common “mind-control” procedures.
The bottom line here is that left liberal people are not especially perturbed about Mumbai blasts. If you try to go after terrorists, they don’t like it. They like open borders, infiltration, setting up of rabid religious camps and sheltering terrorists. The state of West Bengal abounds with a heavy number of such pseudo secular liberals (sic). The terrorists know this and take comfort from the fact that they have one place in India- Bengal to be precise, where they have a safe haven. That is why Calcutta will has or will be a target of terrorist attacks.
@HHBB-
“No, I am not fluent in Persian or Arabic. I did however take a few lessons in Arabic, learnt the script very quickly, and know 200 words. It struck me how easy the script was to master, and how that must have contributed to the spread of literacy and uniformity in the early Islamic world. And I contrasted that with the complexity of Sanskrit, and how it affected Indian society.”
Man….. you continue to marvel me. These kind of sociological observation are like small nuggets of gold. Its almost like the exposition of a detective. This was almost like a Sherlock Holmes quote. Your skills of intuition and deduction are just of the highest order. HHBB …these kind of paragraphs prove that you are no ordinary man.
“” Muslim nations, especially 100% Muslim ones, may tear each other to pieces. (My hypothesis is this is a result of the fanaticism their belief system has created …. they need their sacrifical lambs, and thus when all other victims have been slaughtered, they have no option but to fall upon themselves.) Thus Shia/Sunni genocides, Pakistan’s massacre of Ahmadiyas, the bitterness between Fatah & Hamas (admittedly many other factors are responsible for this).
However, at the very sign of another belief-system raising its head, erstwhile deadly Muslim fores, will block out their animosity and eat alive Non-Muslim foes. Only after the muffled cry of the last non-Muslim victim dies down, will they resume their hatred. Thus we have the obliteration of Vijaynagar by combined Muslim armies. Thus we have Bangldesh’s sickening covert rapproachment with Pakistan barely 30 years after a genocide.””
BRAVO BRAVO BRAVO. A lot of innocent muslims were killed during the terror attacks too. So where writers in future use one of the greatest quotes of all time by Rishi Khujur, “M’s are as much a victim of I as the rest of humanity”, I hope they use this brilliant excerpt as an annotation.
Some one mentioned the close ideological relationship between Islam and Nazism.
Dr. Death, Aribert Heim who became Tarek Hussein Farid rarely allowed himself to be photographed during his time in Egypt.
http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2009/02/05/another-nazi-convert-to-islam-who-found-a-haven-in-egypt-“dr-death”-uncle-tarek”-hussein-farid-did-cairo/print/
“Do not agree with the parallel to Lebanon in your last para. As also with the closing statement.”
I totally second that comment from RR. Today’s India is not comparable with Lebanon. Indian democracy has crossed that critical phase.