[*This is a long post. So please be warned. May I also request people to read the whole post if they at all choose to start reading. Update on December 3, 2007: A minorly edited version of this post has appeared in the December edition of Pragati]
Amar naam, tomar naam—-Vietnam
“My name, your name, Vietnam”. Resonating across the streets of Calcutta and the villages of Bengal, this slogan of the late 60s and early 70s was as much a cry of solidarity for the Vietcong fighting the Americans as it was emblematic of the growing popularity of the philosophy of Communism among an entire generation, a political ideology that defined itself primarily by its support for the “little guy”, the downtrodden and the oppressed, as they fought the depredations of the West, evil corporations, landlords and the oppressive rule of the Congress. Tapping into this groundswell of Bengali idealistic passion, came to power a man who had positioned himself perfectly to ride the wave, branding himself as the “Sarboharar Neta” (the leader of those who have nothing).
A man by the name of Jyoti Basu, the leader of the CPIM.
Bengal was never the same again.
After nearly thirty years of Communist dominion in West Bengal, in what can only be called poetic irony, a word that rhymes with Vietnam has come to symbolize the political ideology of a new generation, that defines itself primarily by its support for the “little guy” as they fight the same set of enemies as before but with the oppressive rule of the Congress being now replaced by the oppressive rule of the CPIM.
That word is Nandigram —a human tragedy, an indictment of the extra-Constitutional authority of the democracy-crushing CPIM, and a political dagger in the hands of both the religious right and the “actual” Left to draw blood from their common enemy, Buddhadeb Bhattacharya
Will Bengal ever be the same again?
Nandigram—Nothing Neutral About It
Before we try to understand the significance of Nandigram, let us first try to get out of the way a common misconception. Nandigram is hardly about about resistance to the acquisition of land for SEZs—–the original notice by Haldia Development Authority was quickly withdrawn and as this video shows, (a person on being asked why they are continuing the struggle even after plans for the chemical hub have been officially abandoned says ” Why won’t they take the land. They still might. So we will continue with our agitation.”) it’s all about the struggle, the original cause be damned.
So then what is Nandigram?
A violent dog-fight for power being waged by the old guard (CPM’s Laxman Seth) on one side and the new Trinamool goombahs backed by the Maoists on the other, a conflict that had been simmering for quite a long time and only needed a spark to set alight.
For those of you who would like to believe that the Bhoomi Ucched Protirodh Committee is an organization of unarmed, peaceful Robin Hoodish peasants who have been resisting the “evil government” from encroaching on their land kindly see this multipart video[1, 2 and 3]. You will 
see people repeating rumors of hundreds of deaths (a number even the Bhoomi Ucched people cannot back up with names and addresses), telling fantastic stories of village ponds red with blood being emptied of all water and “purified” overnight. You will also see images of policemen with their heads bashed in being taken away, unarmed protestors hurling stones at the police from a neat pile of bricks that seem to have spontaneously materialized out of nowhere, Panchayat offices vandalized, a rotting body of a policeman Sadhucharan Chaterjee being recovered from the river and the most harrowing of them all—the wife of CPM leader Shankar Samanta detailing how her husband was dragged out of his house, hacked into pieces and set afire (which might remind some of Ehsaan Jafri).
But while many tears may be shed for Ehsaan Jafri (and rightfully too), there is little sympathy for Shankar Samanta. Why? As this report by a group of Left intellectuals (a few from JNU) say, Shankar Samanta had killed innocent villagers and hence “had it coming.”(or more precisely his supposed crimes put the murder in perspective) Of course, some questions may be raised as to why the word of the villagers (people who murdered Shankar Samanta) are considered to be fact while the CPM’s description of Shankar Samanta as “very harmless man” is put in inverted commas. I personally am not saying that Shankar Samanta was innocent or was harmless by any definition (not that it justifies his being brutalized by a mob) but this kind of rather uneven treatment of two versions of the story indicate that these self-professed Left winging intellectuals were pre-disposed to be critical of the CPM. [The Leftist fact-finders do not seem too interested in the fate of Sunita Mondol, a class ten girl, mutiliated and raped and hung on a tree at a time when Bhoomi Ucched people had barricaded the village and driven out all CPM men] While this bias against the Left by Leftist intellectuals may on the face of it seem paradoxical, I shall subsequently try to explain why the CPM under Buddha is the “true Left’s” biggest nightmare.
And while some of you may have stopped reading by this time and already gone to the comment section, for those who are still with me—-yes the video, originally telecast on a channel that is noted for its CPM sympathies, linked before also is not neutral, presenting just one side of the story with the narrator making no effort to hide which side her sympathies lie. This absence of reliable sources and numbers is indeed a problem for anyone trying to form an opinion on the actual events that happened in Nandigram. What then should people do?
Look at both sides of the story, use common sense and come to a conclusion.
Which for me is that while the CPIMs were no Cinderellas, the Bhoomi Ucched people are not exactly Snow Whites either—as a matter of fact they have quiet a bit of blood on their angelic halos. They had created unrest by spreading rumors of sinister plans to grab land, even after the government had publicly dropped all plans for land acquisition. They had driven out, through violence, villagers who held political beliefs different from theirs. They had looted, killed and raped. They had set up an alternate authority in the barricaded villages where people could not enter until vetted by the local Trinamool toughs.
Against this backdrop, it is incumbent upon any government to take action to restore the rule of law. There were however many options open to the West Bengal government to do that within the framework of legality—including calling in the Army. However the government took none of these options—–simply because they were not interested in merely affirming the rule of law.
Instead, they were more concerned about meting out raw retribution for the atrocities that had been perpetrated on the CPIM cadre and to re-assert the hold of the Marxists on rural Bengal. This is why, a crack army of the worst of CPIM goons from every corner of the state, using human shields drawn from the local population, marched upon Nandigram in a commando-style operation before going on a rampage of pillage, murder and rape while the police, also keen to seek revenge, backed them up.
The icing on the cake was provided by Chief Minister, Buddhadeb Bhattacharya who justified this dastardly extra-constitutional act of wanton violence as the “tit” for the “tat”, “our boys” paying “their boys” back in the same coin, completely forgetting his responsibilities as the CM to be protecting everyone in the state.
Shameful. Utterly shameful.
Vir Sanghvi explains this as the traditional Communist mindset that makes no distinction between state and party. I would put it slightly differently— it was more about asserting one of the most basic premises of Left rule in Bengal: what the Party giveth the Party taketh away (many of the Bhoomi Ucched people being ex-CPIM)
The CPIM Recipe for Power
To understand this a bit more, we need to look at why the CPIM has been politically impregnable in rural Bengal for more than thirty years.
CPIM’s stranglehold on rural power in Bengal stands upon several pillars. One of them is infiltration—-every government institution is staffed by Reds and anyone who is not Red is made irrelevant powerwise. The second is redistribution—-forcible acquisition of land/wealth from larger landlords and redistribution among cadres: a sure way of creating a large support base. The third is percolation—-letting the fruits of power percolate down the Red power structure (making a large number of people complicit in minor forms of corruption) whereas other parties tend to concentrate the benefits in the hands of the top brass, leaving the rank and file disgruntled. And the fourth is intimidation—in the cities it was through what Jatin Chakraborty, one-time best pal of Jyoti Basu and then sworn-enemy called “scientific rigging” and in the villages it was through acts of barbaric violence against anyone who tried to challenge the party; dead bodies turning up in ponds or in the paddy fields from time to time leaving villagers in no doubt as to who called the shots.
However as the years have gone by, a new generation of farmers have emerged, no longer having the same sense of obligation towards the CPIM that their fathers had. This has led to an erosion in the support base of the CPIM with many of the old strong hands graduating to the Trinamul Congress. With Buddha spelling out grand strategies of industrializing Bengal’s rural landscape, a palpable sense of fear of being displaced has taken root among the rural population, a fear that has been adroitly fanned by Trinamul and Naxalite elements to get farmers to take up arms.
A violent break out had become inevitable. And when mayhem, initially targeted at CPIM took place in Nandigram, it became imperative for the Party to assert its power over life and death if only to set an example, if only to show that their iron control over the red dominion is as unforgiving as it always has been, if only to prevent a domino effect all over the state.
What the CPIM did not bargain for was the massive public upheaval in Bengal and the tidal wave of opinion directed at Buddhadeb Bhattacharya, that found expression through SMS-s, online petitions, mass emailing-s, discussions on social networking sites and a silent walk through the heart of Calcutta attended by thousands of people. While the only silver lining from this whole episode may have been this show of conscience from the people of West Bengal, what has been amusing to observe is the outpouring of vitriol against Buddhadeb and the CPIM from the Left-leaning cultural leaders of the state—–one of the Left Front’s most trenchant support base.
This has wrongly been interpreted by many as an expression of disillusionment by the Bengali intelligentsia with Communists after the heinous events of Nandigram .
Nothing I feel could be further from the truth.
Buddhi-Jeevis vs Buddha-Jivis
The Bengali intellectuals are livid not at the CPIM party in particular (the CPIM of Jyoti Basu) or the philosophy of Communism in general, despite the fact that it is an idea that has been confined to the dustbins of history elsewhere in the world.
They are just hopping mad at Buddhadeb Bhattacharya and his politics.
Because he is *not* Left enough.
You see these same intellectuals, with a few exceptions like Suman Chatterjee (whose anti-Left stance has been as constant as his tendency to get married to multiple people), had been perfectly silent during the dark days of the 80s and the 90s when Ananda Margis were being shot down by CPIM goons while the law looked the other way, when a factory manager had a tire put on him by the workers and set on fire in broad daylight as the Left workers cheered, when three women were pulled out of a car to be raped and Jyoti Babu brushed it away with a ” such things keep happening”, when CPIM goondas rode on bikes brandishing pipe-guns preventing entire localities from voting.
As long as the city was brought to standstill by massive rallies against the imperial Americans and their instruments of evil like the General Agreement on Trades and Tariffs (GATT), as long as bandhs protesting the anti-people policies of the Center gave the babus a day off, as long the militant trade unions of CITU sent another multinational packing from the city, as long as the powers-that-be blew out hot red air from body orifices, as long as Jyoti Basu handed out plots in Salt Lake at throw-away prices from the Chief Minister’s quota to the city’s “cultural elite” (read Leftist intellectuals), everything was just ah-ok
[Jyoti babu once famously asked why people ever complain about CPIM rule after all the plots of land he has given to the press, the artists and even the opposition.]
Usha Uthup, who has of late discovered a hidden stream of anti-CPIM-ness, verbalized the mindset of the left-leaning Bengali intellegentsia once upon a time with her ” Jyoti Babu Jyoti Babu don’t worry Jyoti Babu” song set to “Mustafa Mustafa don’t worry Mustafa” .
Nothing that happened in those happy days of Jyotism was worth protesting about or writing citizen’s reports on— not the reign of terror of the CPIM, not the total subversion of contrarian opinion in all the institutions and not the marginalization of those intellectuals whose views did not tally with the Left.
Things however started changing once Jyoti Basu, the darling of the “humanist” intellectuals, stepped down and Buddha took over. Noone knew how different Buddha actually was from Jyoti Czar before he became the CM—–as a minister he was as dogmatic as the rest of the Alimuddin crowd preferring to spend his time translating revolutionary works into Bengali and analyzing obscure movies of peasant uprisings.
But then something changed.
He first put the cat among the pigeons by saying that unregulated madrasas were being used to spread messages of Jihad. Immediately there was an outcry from many Left intellectuals as even hinting that there exists a concerted movement of radical Islam is blasphemy for “radical humanists”. Then started Buddha’s active courting of foreign investment, even the notorious Selim Group of Indonesia, once the bete noire of the Bengal Communists for having buttressed Communist-hating Soharto. Buddha’s aggressive industrialization drive was in sharp contrast to Jyoti Babu’s summer-time sojourns in European capitals, the official reason for which was attracting “foreign investments”. Because these rather faint endeavors produced nothing but better physical and emotional health for the leader of the destitute, they were acceptable to the real Leftists, albeit after a smirk or two.
However unlike Jyoti-dadu, Buddha was actually getting evil capitalists into the state. He was undermining the authority of the mighty trade unions, trying to get rid of the prevalent bandh culture (or as the intellectuals would say putting curbs on democratic expression of dissent) and dreaming of rapidly industrializing Bengal’s countryside, an endeavor that would provide opportunities for so many Bengalis, who had to leave the state due to the closure of industries in the 70s and 80s because of militant trade unionism and lack of electric power, to come back again.
So what’s wrong in all this?
Bloody hell it’s not Leftist !
For a state whose intellectuals have a tendency to glorify poverty (” We are too cultured to be rich”) and consider screwing capitalists and “imperialists” preferable to the flight of capital and loss of jobs, Buddha represents all that is not Bangali Communism.
For the JNU crowd of “historians” it has become increasingly difficult to explain over sips of capitalist beverages at the India habitat center why the CPIM central leadership opposed the same policies at the center that Buddha followed in Bengal,why Karat foams and froths about not undermining China while Buddhadeb argues for greater US-India cooperation.
Surely such a person had to go !
In a video whose link I have lost, I saw a supposed Bangali comic taunting Buddhadeb by reading out passages from his uncle Sukanta, a noted revolutionist Bangla Communist poet, to point out how much he had deviated from the golden path of Communism. During the townhall discussion on NDTV, an audience member called for the need for an alternative “Leftist” movement without Buddha.
Why do I mention this? Simply to re-iterate that the present disturbance has not made a large section of Leftists disillusioned with the philosophy of Communism. On that contrary, it has merely provided them a rallying point to articulate their desire of bringing back the old Jyoti Basu days of “pure Marxism” and comfortable stasis.
Some of you might interpret this last few paragraphs as a defense of Buddhadeb. It is not. Buddha, for all his great administrative skills (and this reminds me of yet another Chief Minister) and his radical reforms,has failed , either willingly or because he is powerless in this respect, to change the fundamentally oppressive nature of Left rule that bases itself, among other things, on fear and subjugation of dissent. In failing, he has himself handed to his critics, on both sides of the political spectrum, a multi-pronged trident to draw blood. And they arent being shy in poking it everywhere.
For those of you who think I am shooting the messengers (the brave Left intellectuals), I say in my defense that I am not equating Buddha’s responsibility for atrocities with the political opportunism of the “Bam-ponthi” intellectuals—they of course do not balance each other out. However, it is not unfair to point out the not-so-hidden agenda of some of the prominent Left voices (often masquerading as “independent”) who have spearheaded the protest, especially when you consider how they have remained silent spectators when other atrocities perpetrated by the Jyoti Basu-led Left front have happened.
The divided loyalties of the Bengali intellectuals, torn between their Marxist ideals and loyalty to the hand that gives, has been perhaps best captured by Mrinal Sen (a mostly silent voice against Left Front barbarities in the past) walking in two marches on successive days, one taken out by “citizens against Buddhadeb” and one taken out by the CPIM in support of the Chief Minister. A sidelight: Prabhuji Mithun walked in support of Buddha which was slightly ironic considering that in movies like “Tulkalam” and “MLA Fatakeshto” he is shown as fighting for farmers against evil corporations out to acquire their land. Of course Mithunda has his reasons and I will not try to analyze them here as it is futile trying to peek into the mind of God.
Lastly, Nandigram has been a gift from above for an increasingly irrelevant Mamta Banerjee and for the religious right, who after years of being pilloried by the Left for atrocities on innocents in their states, are enjoying kicking the Reds in the nuts ( I have never seen terror like Nandigram says Mr. Advani [yeah right]) and even accusing the Left of communal violence against minorities, forgetting of course to mention that many of the victims and many of the accused are Muslims.
Conclusion
Once the smokescreen has cleared, political punches landed and the sense of outrage has dissipated, what’s left in Nandigram is a human tragedy of epic proportions whose the victims have cut across all political lines.
What’s even more horrifying however is what lies in the future.
With the continued perpetuation of the traditional Marxist power idiom of violent cadre-ism and the accompanying reactionary “itching-for-violence” Maoist-Trinamool presence in rural Bengal, incidents like Nandigram will remain just one rumor, just one notice, just one bullet away from happening.
The Greatbong Blog & Podcast 
It is difficult for me to blame buddhadeb as a person. I like him as he is trying to do something. My grudge is against the left-rule which for 30 years threw meritocracy out of window. I hate the left-rule which ensured that everything from police to school gets filled up on basis of party-loyalty. More at oshantomon.blogspot.com
Arnab,
The truth is, as you noticed, that the CPIM is divided between those who profited from the “machine” (terrors, land reform, and redistribution of wealth), that is, the old cadre, and the “reformers” (reindustrialization, and more prosperity). What Buddhadeb has unleashed is ultimately untenable for a party that is so deeply clientelistic. Whereas the “machine” relies on forced capture of land, etc., the reform group relies on secure private property rights and curbing of labor militancy. This contradiction has created a split that Buddhadeb cannot easily overcome.
What Buddhadeb wanted was a reform akin to China, but what he did not understand was that the Indian media is free, social networking cannot be controlled by the government, nor can the opposition forces. So, his economic liberalization has had its political impact. He is not Deng, but Gorbachev; with all the implications that it entails for the CPM.
Another salient point that you hinted at, but did not develop at length: the entwining of the party and the state. The state government, from the panchayat, to the police station is controlled by the diktat of the local party offices of the CPIM. Thus, is the CPIM collapses, so does the state apparatus of Bengal. This is the scenario that not many have thought about. This is very important in light of continued infilitration of Jehadi elements through the porous borders of Bengal and Bangladesh.
Anyway, I was waiting for your viewpoint on the issue: it is rather balanced and astute. Perhaps, you should read Sunil Gangopadhyay’s piece in Anandabazar. He also implicates these intellectuals. People like Aparna Sen, Goutam Ghosh, and especially Rituporno, have fed on the CPIM institutions, via the very same film festivals, the “plots”, the sponsorship of movies, etc.. However, I think, the opposition that brings down single party regimes lie within them. This has been the trend the world over: Dubcek, Yeltsin, or Cardenas in Mexico. So, yes, they are being disloyal, but they will exploit their protected status, which is not shared by those in the Opposition, to be the first rebels.
The sufferings of CPIM rule are very personal to me. My family comes from the extinct species of “Bengali Business” houses. Now, not a single person from my generation lives in Calcutta; and, exile is a bitter experience. Yet, when I see the literati against the CPIM, members of the same set who stood outside our institution and instigated laborers, I feel that what was lost by us, the economic and social philosophy of capitalism, is being vindicated.
Vasabjit
Those of us who are outside Bengal and those who are living the daily suffocation of the CPIM rule seem to have different view points. For many of the non-aligned “common” people the overwhelming opposition of the CPIM stance by the left intelligentsia has come as a very faint ray of hope, a hairline crack that may, with some wish full thinking, bring down the communist establishment sometime in the next few hundred years. For those of us who have distanced ourselves from Bengal politics where incidents like Nandigram stir the heart as much as say the genocide in Sudan but still retain enough Bengali-ness to be appalled by the episode, this review says it all.
while you have exhausted all angles of this issue i just want to add this:
the biggest achievement of the West Bengal Left(and maybe the only one apart from building Nandan) is the abolishing of the zamindari system.
it’s not as if the new generation of farmers do not need the CPI(M) as land reforms in West Bengal are very strategically incomplete. most sharecroppers do not have title to the land they till (hence are also not entitled to compensation when the land is acquired). so they depend on the Left for the limited rights they have.
so, ironically, it is this incompleteness in land reforms that is the biggest obstacle to land acquisition and thereby, industrialization.
This along with many other factors show that there is no moving forward without addressing the acts and omission of 30 years of misrule for Buddhadeb Bhattacharya.
it was sheer political opportunism to ferment the insurgency in Nandigram. however, i am stunned by the stupidity of those fools who supported the BUPC, thinking they can speak the language of brutality better than the CPI(M).
This is a good article and puts a lot of things in the right perspective. But I would object to a few points. The fact that the people of Nandigram were able to do such an act with the support of Trinamul Congress or other parties is totally wrong. From 1967 CPIM and its allies have lost only once in that area. This is an area which is as CPIM as it gets. This is a protest which arose out of the people due to the fear of loss of property. The people involved here were mostly the common people and some people who left the CPIM. These people know very well how the CPIM works and what would happen. And so they used the same means of violence to blockade the area. The Trinamul Congress and other parties is just using the situation to establish a base in the area.
I like the fact that you say that Buddhadeb should be judged by what he and his government has done and not what he thought or might have thought. But I don’t totally agree with your picture of the buddhijibis. One must realize that buddhadeb with his personality and poetic side is a great favourite of the buddhijibis. It is only after the recent incident that there is such an outcry among them. It is true that the protesting buddhijibis were mostly silent during the atrocities during jyoti basu’s term. That was because most of these people were actively part of the communist government coming to power. Then the situation was such that people in power were their friends whom they felt incorrect to criticize. It is when the government and the buddhijibis changed one generation that the criticism has again started. There is some disillusionment among some of them .And there are still some of them who still pledge their allegiance. I don’t think buddhadeb not being leftist enough has anything to do with the situation.
Looking at Bengal’s Godhra are we?
“This is a protest which arose out of the people due to the fear of loss of property.”
Samik, I beg to disagree. As WTF pointed out, this is more about who holds the title to the land and benefits from acquisition. The people who were protesting the acquisition initially were certainly not the land-owners.
In fact, wherever new projects have been successfully initiated in Bengal, the land-owners have seen the projects as a windfall and happily sold agricultural land at market prices (I should know, almost all of the agricultural land in my village got sold for an industrial project, the land-owners literally scrambling over themselves to sell).
For all of Bengal’s fertility, agriculture is hard work with uncertain returns. Also, the CPIM’s consistent undermining of landowners have left them with very little control over how their land-holdings are to be used. And land-owning families tend to be better educated and skilled, so have a better chance of finding employment in the new project.
The ones who protest the acquisition are the sharecroppers/agricultural tenants or agricultural labourers. They receive no compensation, have very uncertain prospects of finding employment in the project (beyond the initial construction phase), and are less mobile as well.
Personally, I think the sharecroppers/labourers are outraged at this ultimate betrayal by the CPIM, given that CPIM’s rural base is almost entirely built on the solid support of sharecroppers/labourers. Ergo, exodus towards the Maoists.
(Arnab, I obviously haven’t been following the details closely, but I was surprised to note that Trinamool is spearheading the violence there. I thought the Maoists were to blame entirely).
Of course, bolte hobe na, but this is definitely one of your best pieces. Given all the charged emotions around the issue, it is hard to get a semblance of balance.
Finally, a balanced point-of-view on Nandigram!
@WTF:
“the biggest achievement of the West Bengal Left(and maybe the only one apart from building Nandan) is the abolishing of the zamindari system.” WTF??????
Operation Barga is not same as the aboloshing of Zamindari, which was aboloshed MUCH before CPM came to power….
On a lighter note, you missed out one more ‘jeebi’ Arnab-da. The complete list is ‘buddhi-jeebi’, ‘buddho-jeebi’ & ’60GB’.
The last mentioned are the ‘sunshine-industry’ workers in Kolkata’s Sector V (not to be confused with the sunrise which dawned in Nandigram, according to some).
Strong post GB,
You certainly remember a lot of stuff from the “good old days” of Bengal’s communist rule
GB,I hoped from the time the first comment appeared for post on Nandigram, that you wont take it up.I thought you, as everbody, will present a picture through the glass tinted by one color or the other. Glad you have proved me wrong. Couple of points I think you have not considered in the post. One is the greatly increased hunger for newsfeed of the country, due to the 24×7 news channels. The episodes of Jyoti babu era that you mentioned, would be big time stories in today’s constantly “breaking news” days. Then again we also did not have Greatbong.net (and other blogs) at that time. You pointed very briefly towards “another Chief Minister”(he had “parivar friends” doing the bidding, not people from his house). Worth mentioning that the alternative person to lead West Bengal, Didi, makes for a case of being compared to Pakistan.
IN GUJRAT , GOONDAS ARE ARRESTED AND PUNISHED BY COURT BUT IN BENGAL NO ONE ARRESTED TILL DATE.
WHY?
Brilliant ! Your best political post 🙂
Very well balanced sane take on the realities that most concerned people I meet, seem to ignore. The media has also fuelled confusion by not highlighting the true picture and is instead more concerned about TRPS which shoot up only showing jingoistic incendiary views. Last Sunday’s “We the People”(of Barkha Dutt fame) had an extremely confused Derek O brien (a person I so admired for being the perfect quizmaster after his father Neil O’Brien, the original quizmaster from the old Telegraph magazine days), who during the Nandigram debate had to justify his joining the Trinamool (after he himself brought it up) and botched up his image miserably by surprisingly incoherent blabber. The self-righteous crowd and the “Goddess of self-righteousness” , Barkha (yes she is one from the pantheon that dominate Indian talk shows of late) would not even let a journalist/filmmaker speak about what she had witnessed first-hand in Nandigram.
Thank God for the Internet… sane voices can’t be supressed by loudmouthed pacifists or fanatics-turned-innocent-sympathizers(with bespectacled Bambi eyes).
Nice post…the picture is too good. At first glance I felt as if blood was being dropped on the leader 🙂
“Buddha, for all his great administrative skills (and this reminds me of yet another Chief Minister) and his radical reforms,has failed”
Carrying from my previous comment on “Stinking Modi”, I want to reiterate that Modi is one of the most successful chief minister any India state ever had. He has single-handedly turned Gujarat into most developed state in the country.
@ciph3r
Totally agree with you. It was sad to see Derek O’Brien in that incoherent blabber.
Arnab,
I am an admirer of your writing, and generally identify with your line of reasonings. But this time, I must say you have genarlized a LOT by painting all the buddhi-jibis by same brush calling all of them ultra- lefts, which they are not. The Nandigram is just not a divide between left and ultra-left ( who according to you were anti- Budhdha to begin with), it is a matter of much larger and severe disappointment!
I am one of those persons who saw a ray of light in Budhdha. I myself am a victim of the left’s education policy( and its english-hatao thingy), industry policy and what not, and assent of Budhdha and talks of industrialization, we all felt happy.
But whatever CP(I)M does, it does in a weird way. Industrialization is good, but why government is being Dalal of lands? Government can simply ask the private companies to buy the lands from the farmers? why forceful evictions ( and there are forceful evictions, even if you don’t admit).
And what kind of groups?? Salim?? A shady group known for human rights violation? Apart from Tata, Budhdha has failed to attract a SINGLE respectable group.
And if you say, he failed but he and the new CPM is all for industrialization, then nothing is farther from truth. They are on your side only if you are deeeeeep -pocket with enough money for the relevant persons. If you go to set up a unit in rural bengal with moderate budget, they will have news for you.
Regarding anti-CPM sentiment, the cradle of torment is full and oozing out from any fissure available anywhere. Sometimes the fissure is Maoist insurgency ( don’t paint the villagers at Purulia as ultra-left, they don’t know what ultra-left or maoism is, only reality to them is torture of CPM and the “maoist” cadres are just a channel who can take retribution; I can appreciate as I have lived better part of my life at bandowan and nearby places) , sometimes for the lack of better it is TMC, in Chandmoni Tea Estate where CPM bulletted down peacefull hungry laborers it was a local labor union. But CP(I)M, with all its terrorism and supprot from an impotent centre has managed well so far in containing them.
Regarding your argument on trust, your amusement at why people disbelieved CPM even after CP(I)M publicly announced they will not go for an SEZ at Nandigram, well!! CP(I)M ( including our CM)publicly say , they are a communist party, and we should believe them! Hmm..
Arnab,
Rather good attempt to study the situation rationally. However, don’t you think that the situation reminds you about Frankenstein?
And Buddhadeb Babu, much as I admire him for his efforts towards reviving the economic situation of Bengal, has really added fuel to the fire by his comments.
After all, making such comments do not endear him to the investors too.
I am glad you summed up the issue so well. But I just want to ask about which JNU historians you are talking about. There is a major problem in the Indian historiography; it is inconsistent and hopelessly polarized. On one hand it is painful to see the rightist historians like Makhanlal and others who find ways to show that everything originated from the Vedas then you have the leftist historians. Students of history either have the choice to either go with the right or be with the left, and if you ask me their historical documentation makes much more sense. Some of our best historians are the ones with Left bias Romila Thapar, Irfan Habib, D.D Kosambi, G.R Sharma to name a few. Then you have the post colonial theorists, so Indian history as such is very convoluted, well all history is. But I do think the Left historians have done much more profound research than anyone else, even with their obvious bias.
“the biggest achievement of the West Bengal Left(and maybe the only one apart from building Nandan) is the abolishing of the zamindari system.”
It was indeed an achievement – NOT in the sense that it lifted people out of poverty. But it was an achievement and a genius act in the sense how it ensured a single party to be so well entrenched in power. All political parties should study this phenomenal achievement (but hopefully not be able to replicate ! One state wasted is enough)
Arnabda,
I guess Aparna Sen didnot get a plot in golf green or in Salt Lake at a lower price and guess thas the root cause. However see Soumitro , Dada, Prabhuji they are all supporting our dear CM simply because they have been patronized . So the Budhhajibi’s are the ‘HAVES’ and the buddhijibis ( or budhhibichis (no pun intended)) are the havenots.
All Budhdhajibis are BudhdhiJibi but not all budhdhijibi’s are Budhdhajibi. Example: Aparna Sen 🙂
I have a few points to make.
1. Any riot in India does not die down easily. The reverberations of Nandigram will be felt throught Indian politics and society for not merely years but decades. Just like other riots like Bhagalpur, Delhi, Mumbai, Gujrat etc.
2. Also just like Gujrat, the left may or may not loose Bengal in the next elections. but Nandigram will definately slow down their progress in other states. They will be weaker in national politics, which can be already seen in the nuclear deal.
Balanced analysis Arnabda, But as you mentioned, I still believe Buddha is the main culprit. Comments like “They have been paid back by their own Coin” – is not at all acceptable in democracy. Unfortunately there is no strong, responsible opposition in West Bengal, otherwise CPIM would have been in trouble.
WEll, I guess your article also iterates the point that when it comes to violence and the ability to murder in cold blood for a ‘higher’ end, the leftists and rightists are on the same plane, all the time.
I have been shocked witless by the defence of Nandigram by the Karat’s and yechury’s of the world. A defence that is eerily similar to the godhra defence a lot of sympathisers bandied about at the time.
The way out? Having spent time in Bengal, I think it will become increasingly obvious to the people that even stasis is not desirable, as it’s just not good enough any more. With outsiders streaming in all the time, legally and illegally, chances are the sort of bullying the CPIM got away with for years will start fading, as a second generation of settlers get the confidence to speak out and ‘express’ themselves. It will take a few dedicated election comission officials to make sure that they are not disenfranchised, of course.
A Vir Sanghvi, or even the views you have expressed, find more takers today, than they would have a few years back. The intellectuals too, if they live up to their moniker, will know when to make the shift to the right side.
The biggest problem of course remains the ‘solution’. The crazy Ms Mamta Banerjee will put off the most ardent supporter of change, and a Congress that continues to swear by dynasty and nothing else holds out equally poor hopes for providing options.
Our best hope will be that the experience leads to at least the politburo being populated b far more people like Buddhadeb than currently, so that the man can at least execute what he sets out to do, rather than tripping up on sharp heels of his comrades.
“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.”
In the classic Orwellian way, communist rule in Bengal has come a full circle.
I was not hopeful about Bengal when I had decided to shift base to Bangalore, 10 years back, and I am not still.
Good post GB. Provides a lot of insight into Bengal’s politics for ‘outsiders’ like me.
I have sympathies for Buddha-babu and his progressive policies but after the Rizwanur episode showed parts of the adminisration/police in bad light he must have thought of being of some damage control in the Nandigram episode. Instead he outraged the “Sarkar-maai-baap” tradition in our country by raging a shameless “eet-paatkel” debate against political opponents. Biman Bose ( Don’t even want to talk of him) was outright indecent in the CPIM rally where he tried to lampoon the intellectuals and the general support that the silent-match gathered.
It is not a state-secret now that Buddha is being feared and cornered by large quarters of ‘traditional’ Leftists within and outside Alimuddin. His plans are being sabotaged meticulously and his wish to portray Bengal as a FII destination is making the hawks quake in their pants. What for ? The answers are obvious. ‘Phoren’ connotes the Capitalist-America and hence a fear of losing support-base. One can only sigh in resignation that Jyoti-babu has so many cronies in the system till now.
But, as you have very appreciably made no bones about calling a CARNAGE a carnage…. Nandigram will go down the history pages as just another rural skirmish which managed to reach the ‘ears’ in Delhi, stalling the House unnecessarily for a couple of days. Blood spilled is blood lost. In our country, Life lost is a life forgotten. And that’s what sad.
p.s- Would love to know your views on my post on Nandigram.
How come no mention about Benoy Konar,Biman Bose and Shyamal Chkraborty..the infamous trio inciting the comrades from Alimuddin..at least press was allowed freely to move during Gujrat riot..what is there to hide in Nadigram by left?
I read the whole post.
How you get this patience to examine the other side of the story as well in such great detail! Contrast this with your views on Gujarat. There’s no other side there. How can there be truth in what ‘communal’ people say!
Budhadeb is not modern day Nero for people like you. Though the administration was in his hands to curb the violence which he didn’t, he can not be blamed solely for this. Contrast this with how you have criticized Modi.
There were riots for three days in Gujarat. Rioting has become commonplace in Nandigram. There were riots in Singur. There were ration riots very recently in West Bengal. Yet Budhadeb cannot be blamed. Budhadeb is the most ‘modern’ chief-minister you can get.
The human rights commission has indicted the WB government. That doesn’t find mention. On the contrary, whatever the said commission says about Gujarat is gospel.
And I don’t know what you found wrong in what Advani has said. Anyway it’s your duty to nail Advani and his party for whatever they do, good or bad.
People wanting to get to know how horrible Nandigram has beome under Budhadeb, please read this.
http://dailypioneer.com/columnist1.asp?main_variable=Columnist&file_name=mitra276.txt&writer=MITRA&validit=yes
The above comment was by me.
By the way,
“West Bengal government has sought six columns of Army to be deployed in Kolkata following violence over Nandigram.”
In my last article you had asked me for reference to the people who had been burnt in the brick kilns. Here you go………
http://telegraphindia.com/1071121/asp/bengal/story_8574034.asp
Arnab, kudos. The most balanced and comprehensive take on this subject that I have come across. Publish, man.
Except that I can’t agree about the ‘administrative ability’ (or acumen or whatever the term that you used).
You’ll appreciate why I won’t comment further here or add my 2-pice bit. When I can get online again we should talk about this.
J.A.P.
The jubilation continues unabated :
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7105277.stm
“The protesters started pelting policemen with brick bats and acid bottles in several places,
ARMY DEPLOYED AFTER CALCUTTA RIOT
==================================
Hundreds of soldiers are trying to keep peace in Calcutta
Troops have been deployed in the Indian city of Calcutta after protests over a controversial writer turned into riots.
Police using tear gas and baton charges were unable to control crowds calling for Bangladeshi feminist writer Taslima Nasreen to leave India.
Rioters blocked roads and set cars alight. At least 27 people were hurt. More than 100 arrests have been made.
Crowds were also protesting at recent attacks on Muslims in the Nandigram area in the east of West Bengal state.
A number of people have been killed and thousands left homeless in Nandigram after violence over now-abandoned state plans to industrialise farm land in the area.
Wednesday’s trouble in the state capital began after the predominantly Muslim All-India Minority Forum called for blockades on major roads in the city.
The group said Ms Nasreen had “seriously hurt Muslim sentiments”. Many Muslims say her writing ridicules Islam.
Police arrived in strength to disperse the demonstrators.
Violence then broke out in Ripon Street in the north of the city and spread to Park Circus, Moulali and many other areas of central Calcutta.
The BBC’s Subir Bhaumik in Calcutta says he saw two army columns, one in Park Circus and one in Moulali.
For most of the day, parts of the city centre were a no-go area, with main roads closed to traffic and commuters stranded.
Children spent hours in buses before they could be returned to the safety of their schools.
“THE PROTESTERS STARTED PELTING POLICEMEN WITH BRICK BATS AND ACID BOTTLES IN SEVERAL PLACES, so we can say the trouble making was planned and co-ordinated,” Calcutta police chief Gautam Chakrabarty said.
Idris Ali, a senior leader of the Minority Forum, blamed the state’s ruling Communists for the violence.
“They have infiltrated our ranks and sparked the violence. We wanted to protest peacefully but the Marxists are trying to discredit us,” Mr Ali told the BBC.
The Marxists denied the charge.
“We had no idea of their plans, they have planned the trouble, they must take the blame for this mayhem,” Communist Party of India (Marxist) leader Biman Bose said.
🙂 Perhaps Modi, the RSS, and Hara Hara Bom Bom dressed up in lunghees and sparked it off?
@ Arnab
A very well balanced article.
Even though what happened in Kolkata today actually points to a more than what is already discussed.
Bringing anti-Taslima Nasreen feelings into the protests points to something that I have always talked about.
Are these the first signs of ‘Beirut effect’….only time will tell.
Har Har Bom Bom….how dare you instigate those innocent, secular, peace loving followers of Islam. Its all your fault….so lets hang Modi.
Such a situation in a country with the second largest standing army in the world! What we need is not a half-assed ‘effort’ but full-on ‘action’. But deploying the army is again another sham. Remember when the army went in to nab Veerappan and his band of 7 (or was it 8) merry men and returned empty-handed?
From the way I look at it, there’s nothing left in the left. The right also seems to be rooting only for their self’right’eous agenda. The center, aptly remains undecided. Mamta has no motherly love for the people. Irony is the norm here.
GB has tried to cover all sides here, but is there even ONE mainstream media report about Nandigram that is unbiased? Who do the people turn to? Or do the people really care?
What a fuking shame!
I am wondering as to who these Muslim rioters are. They are dressed in salwar kameez, and are basically speaking and chanting in Hindi. They are also asking for Taslima’s deportation to Bangladesh. I am (pardon my political incorrectness) wagering that these are Bihari muslims not Bengali muslims. It must also be noted that Rizwanur was a Bihari muslim. The botched police investigation led to a mini riot in Park Circus.
Thus, here we have a perfect overlap of a local crisis that has overlapped with the larger Nandigram situation. Taslima Nasrin is the symbol of the CPIM progressive platform: attacking her is attacking the CPIM.
The one problem is that the whole situation might take a communal/regional angle, which Mamata Banerjee (and other’s in the Opposition) can exploit. We must not forget that Calcutta has a history of sporadic violence. Everyone loses in such an event.
Godhra, Nandigram .. has started looking like a pattern.
Arnabda,
You are on a hatrick. Two consecutive excellent posts albeit of different flavours. I agree with you that this Nandigram issue has been turned into a political cash cow by all parties concerned. Trinamool as we all know follow one principle alone : Left bashing.
Let’s accept that industrial development is much more regarding that farming. To stagnate industrial growth would be a killer as we have all seen for the past 30 years. However, the farmer also has his rights to his land and livelihood. If one really had the farmers interests at heart then instead of going for cheap vote gains one should strike at the base of power. That is, one should work towards developing the farming standards in the state to a point where the crops make substantial profits so that the govt thinks twice before taking the land away. Invest in infrastructure, education and farming technology so that the farmers are empowered in the proper sense. Don’t just kill CPI(M) cadres. That won’t help the farmers or the state in general.
@Divya, WTF – To those of you who think that the abolishing of the zamindari system was a great acheivement, I ask was it fair to take lands away from those who owned it? Isn’t the same thing happening now in Nandigram? That is so “Robin Hoodish”…take from the rich ….however unfair it maybe and just give it to the pooor instead of working constructively towards uplifting the poor.
@ Vasabjit Banerjee : “I am wondering as to who these Muslim rioters are. I am (pardon my political incorrectness) wagering that these are Bihari muslims not Bengali muslims.”
Does it matter if they are Bihari or Bengali? The knives of the former excruciate as searingly as the latter.
“Thus, here we have a perfect overlap of a local crisis that has overlapped with the larger Nandigram situation.”
Isn’t this a typical ploy of the ‘religionists of piece’. They have the jaw-dropping ability to turn any situation in to an ‘anti-Muslim’ one. That is why never, in the history of the world, has any non-Muslim been successful in arriving at a single long-lasting solution with them, be it political, economic, or social.
“Taslima Nasrin is the symbol of the CPIM progressive platform: attacking her is attacking the CPIM”.
Is Taslima Nasrin truly a symbol of CPIM progressiveness? From a political and tactical angle, does her cause have any significance beyond the short term?
I think the Muslims of West Bengal have run out of causes to gripe about. There are no Gujaratis to retaliate if they burn 50 Hindu children & women alive (somehow the Patels of Bhowanipore are of softer mettle than Godhra).
There is no local clamouring for a unified civil code to impair preferential Islamic god-gifted rights. In fact, there is not even a murmur about their slow strangulation of a failed state by mass immigration and brutal ousting of the rapidly evanescent rural Hindu population.
They have grown B-O-R-E-D. Time for some entertainment. Time for some action. Time to attack Hindus. Peaceful (sic) protest in Mominpur today. With brickbats and acid. Peaceful protests engulfing the whole state tomorrow.
They used brickbats and acid AGAINST THE POLICE. God knows what they will use against us common folk.
My state has failed. My country is failing. Ons small consolation I will draw as the inferno closes around me, the scoundrels of the CPM, Congress and anti-secular (i.e pseudo-secular) brigade, who are responsible for this horrific debacle, will be flung into the fire by the Muslims before me.
I shall die with their screams drowning my own. So it will not all be wasted.
Unless I manage to emigrate for good to golden antipodean shores first. And fast.
GB,
First of all let me thank you for giving us a quite balanced and accurate picture of the Nandigram Crisis. I myself hail from a state that has a strong Left presence, though the rule ain’t absolute there are large swathes where the writ of the CPIM is ABSOLUTE! We don’t have goons with sawed off guns but we have Party Assassins with unmatched Machete and Garrote skills. Your point about the CPIM taking Direct Action against defiance of their writ, as against the Govt imposing Law & Order, is the key.
My take, OTOH, is on the “Intellectuals”….
The Intellectuals’ bile might be a result of them sensing that the “old ways” are changing. In post-breakup Russia and Belarus-Ukraine etc the old “Apparatchiks”, viz. Revolutionary Poets, Leftist Artists, Party Theorists, Leftist Philosophers etc, lost their umbrella. The new states wanted none of the deadwood…. it was Mafya and Capitalists and Rock Stars all the way. One has to see what this did to this class of (mostly) freeloaders to understand the fear of the Indian Chatterati. ( China is a different matter, post Cultural Revolution convulsions and all.)
The fact that Leftist Academics,Intellectuals and Artists hog the limelight is the political capital of the CPIM in power in W.B., Kerala (every other term though), the commie influx into the Media and Academic realms taking advantage of Nehruji’s idealism (and his occasional gullibility) and the infiltration of the Commies (like Kumaramangalam) into Indiraji’s INC. The Old-Boy networks, selective promotions, symbiosis, post-swapping, contacts with their Leftist/Pinko friends across the globe (look at the likes of Ward Churchill and Chomsky!). Truly a Communist-International, eh?
Now the rise of a new Bourgeois-Left, as against the hardcore “Party” Left, poses a fundamental threat to the well-being of the Intellectuals. Pinarayi Vijayan in Kerala and Buddhadev Bhattacharya are (in my opinion) harbingers of this New Indian Left that is free from Dogma, willing to dine with the devil, cavort with Capitalist Imperialists in public etc etc. These new commies have no time for vacuous “theories”, high falutin’ discourses on the subtle differences between Leninism and Marxism or indulge the Apparatchiks (who have egos the size of Jupiter). They are more practical, self-serving… and of course you might have the odd Commie who really want to make things better for the people, even if it damages “Party Standing”.
If such a faction gains ascendancy in the battle for the minds within the party (and without), it might be the end of the jolly Gravy Train. Voices once respected will not be entertained any more…. meritocracy may force Party Artists out of the loop….. underperforming workers and their parasitic leaders might find their status “under review”… “Established” Cultural Leaders and Ideas will be ousted by iconoclastic manifestations of global pop culture/capitalism/consumerism… Holy Cows won’t be holy anymore. This probably worries the intellectuals no end.
It ain’t JUST the “comfortable, very familiar stasis” as you pointed out…. it’s the question of sustainment of a large swathe of people. Influential people. These critters ain’t gonna cave in just like that. Some are already diversifying into Dalit Issues or Minority Issues or “Arms Control” or other Astroturfing campaigns, but the lion’s share in these areas are already taken by other parties…. and they will never enjoy paramountcy in these unfamiliar lands. Moreover, this ain’t as big as the Great Left Umbrella…. seats are limited you see.
Just my 2 cents.
“And what kind of groups?? Salim?? A shady group known for human rights violation? Apart from Tata, Budhdha has failed to attract a SINGLE respectable group.”
Huh?? What the Salim Group is known for is crony capitalism and borrowing money against next-to-nothing collaterals, not human rights violations (sounds familiar?). If they are to be accused of human rights violations, then every major conglomerate, whether American, European, Chinese, Indian or Indonesian can be accused of human rights violations.
In pre-1998 times, think of the Salim Group as an Indonesian Reliance Group – or an Indonesian Bajaj Group, but at a bigger scale (read Polyester Prince).
GB,
I think you should emphasize that the leaders of Bhumi Uchchhed PS are ex-cpi(m) men. They know how the wrath of the party works because they have meted it out to others before. They also know that they will not find forgiveness in the party. Like all communist parties, at the top level cpim is medieval. So these are desperate men fighting for their lives. This is why they turn to the Maoists. I have no doubt that the Maoists will try to use this incident to put their bases in West Bengal. This will be surely bad. But, please tell me this. Why should I, as an anti-communist, care. We have seen (and felt) our share of “education”, cpi(m) style, about what happens when you oppose the party. For us, Maoists are just another wolf.
Please feel free to tell me why we should care whether it is Maoists who do the extortion, or cpi(m). Of course, for people who has careers and more invested in the current ruling dispensation (and who, for whatever reason, ignored its depradations over the years; remember midnapur assembly election, Rajarhat, Bantalla, AnandaMarg? ) this event has come as a shock to see their own vulnerability against the system they supported so long.
How is it you still don’t unequivocally support property rights?
Instead of trying to figure out, on a case by case basis, whether this application of eminent domain is good, that one bad.
At times the media’s portrayal of this seems like “sunil gangulir diste diste lekha”. The essential evil of the left is glossed over. Even at the statesman. Pioneer is, of course, more fire and brimstone. Voices in the wind.
@ Vasabjit:
I think you are quite wrong about the “CPM using Tasleema as the mascot” thing.
Tasleema is a anti-Islamic humanist and CPM cannot even utter those words for fear of losing votes. Tasleema is a pariah in Bengal and the poor lady is running from pillar to post to get somebody to support her stay in India.
This riot in Kolkata was coming anyway…how Buddhadeb handles it… will determine how many years we are way from the ‘Kristallnacht’.
@ Vasabjit:
I know about Tasleema’s plight first hand because until 4 months back, a friend of mine was in direct communication with her.
GB,
I must add that I more or less agree with what you wrote, in spite of the above. A correction/clarification: Suman Chatujje has been consistently anti-cpi(m), not anti left. Also his anti-cpim stuff started only after the cpim started attacking him, for some trivial reason. Given also that he was a naxal during his JU days (so I have heard), I would imagine he is exactly like the other Antels.
all the best
Are you deleting my comments Arnabda ? I don’t fidn them.
[GB adds: No I have not. I never delete anyone’s comments unless abuse is used. I never got your comments—they are neither in moderation nor in spam. I am sorry for the inconvenience though but it just didnt go through.]
@ Vasabjit
And what is this Bihari Muslim..Bengali Muslim thingie…? Are you still living in the 1971, “Joy Bangla” propaganda years?
GB,
I have been waiting for this post for long. And THANKS a lot not only for your unbiased perspective but for the brief historical perspective you gave for people like me with limited knowledge about Bengal politics.
I saw an episode of Big Fight in which there was this CPI guy, BJP guy and Congress guy (I am sorry I don’t remember the names). The Congress guy said ‘Though Nandigram is a BIG shame for CPI, but please don’t forget the murderers of Gujarat’ .. people clapped .. and the BJP guy retorted ‘And how about the 3000 Sikh who were killed in Delhi – 84’ .. people again clapped. And that sums it up. This is how Nandigram will be remembered. Another one liner used in blame games on which people will clap in talk shows.
Hi GB!
I, like most of the other people posting here, am a regular reader of your blog. Many a times I’ve started writing comments on your posts and quit halfway thinking that my comments would be all very personal and they will not be able to “contribute” in any way. But this time I proabably would make an exception.
Thanks a lot GB, for putting up the most balanced article on this issue I’ve come across till now. The situation is grave and it does concern people like me who still are in their 20s and do wish to go back to the place they have been a part of all through their childhood.
CPM asks Tasleema to leave Bengal.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/nov/22taslima.htm
Hi Great Bong,
I follow most of your posts very closely and must say this post is very poignant in terms of content and neutral representation of facts. I’m not a “baam-ponthi” in any sense of the word, however I beg to differ with you on one point. You mention that Buddhadev Bhattacharyyas justification of the “tit for tat” act is not supportable, but I’d like to point out that the government has repeatedly tried to enter into dialogue with Trinamool and the latter constantly declined to do so. In the one instance that a meeting was eventually wored out, Mamata Bannerjee publicly stage showed resent by walking out before any reasonable conclusion could be reached. No doubt the comment seems very inhumane, especially since so many civilian lives are lost, but I fail to see in what other “bhodroloki” way can the histrionics of this insane female be handled ? She has created a wierd combination by tying with BJP and the Maoists, resists getting into any bilateral talk, and her party openly propounds the policy that they will come up with a BUPC where ever land acquisition is contemplated (in other words no cooperation at all, no matter what the govenrment ventures). It seems the government has put it’s best foot forward to resolve the matter peacefully, but there has to be initiative from the opposition too. Other than the “tit for tat” policy, looks like the only option the government was left with was getting this female treated in some mental asylum.
Rishi,
Thanksgiving break has indeed stoked our fires or perhaps increased our time. However, yes, there is a Bengali-Bihari problem that extends not merely to 1970-1971, but from Surawardy’s direct action movement during the mid-forties. Sadly, it is a well known fact that the Bihari muslims were the most radical East Pakistan supporters. This ironically made them pariahs in newly independent Bangladesh, where they are still denied citizenship status.
Due to the well known CPIM policies of resettling everyone and their uncle from Bangladesh, the Bihari muslims returned to Calcutta through the last three decades. Most of them have settled in precisely the riot affected areas in Calcutta; anyone who has made a trip through Park Circus and adjacent areas can easily attest to this demographic reality. Now, let me be clear, I am in no way stoking any ethnic fires here, but the CPIM used the “communal harmony” card with them to win the last elections (I think they have a left MP and MLAs at present). Of course, the Rizwanur case revealed the CPIM’s real interests (maintaining status and perks for the bhadraloks, party apparatchiks, and their IAS/IPS minions). So, these folks feel let down.
Finally, their own movement has become conflated with the ongoing Nandigram issue. This is actually a part of social movement oriented explanations: how large social movements attach themselves with local cleavages to develop….comprende?
@ Vasabjit:
The Bengali-Bihari distinction amongst the followers of Islam, in my opinion is a typical Bengali Hindu self deluding theory, that worked only once, the 1971 liberation war.
During Suhravardy’s time (direct action day), intellectual Bengali Hindus tried to fool themselves (nothing unusual) into thinking that the Bengali convert to Islam is somehow ‘superior’ and hence less reactionery than the Hindi speaking convert to Islam.
This self-delusion, on the part of Hindu Bengalis stemmed primarily from the extreme language parochialism that exists even today amongst the Bengali ‘bhadrolok’.
Noakhali, broke that pipe dream in 1946. Self-determination and accession to Pakistan by Sylhet confirmed it.
BTW, now that Tasleema is being kicked out of Kolkata, everyone can go back to the usual CPM-Trinamool/bhumi ucched/maoist/islamist cacophony while i observe the tactical and strategic chess that is now Bengal.
No informed person, who has been following the Nandigram incidents, will deny what started off as a mass-uprising against land-acquisition has shifted gears to ‘elaka dakhal er lorai’ between warring parties. The detestable part is that the State is a protagonist in this war for reconquest. The state is, as the CM says, “conquering back” land from some of its people, and “paying back” some of its people “in the same coin”!!! Buddha is unable to distinguish between party and state. It is impossible not to protest this.
However, I am sad to see that you support the indiscriminate ‘neoliberal’ industrialization line advocated by Buddha. The need of the hour is jobs. While industrialization is inevitable, selling of farmlands (and a lot more farmlands than what is required, if you’ve been following many article that appeared in the aftermath of Singur and Nandigram) to large corporation led industries which perform ever so poorly as job-generators, catering to only a few at the cost of many, and hence moving the entire society more and more away from a stable equilibrium.
I would encourage you and all your readers to read this analytical article and then revise your own judgement. The article explains analytically why putting our investments in small industries and rejecting profit-making large corporations will help the economy fare better.
Thanks.
Btw, I am not a JNU historian, thought I’d mention that 🙂
Guys, GB –
I am very confused here.
Nandigram was about (apparently) land to be seized by the government and the farmers protesting against it OR (really) CPIM and Trinamool and other vested interests trying to show who is the “bloody” boss.
The riots in Kolkatta are Nandigram related.
How the fuk does Taslima figure in all of this ?
@ Turrtle:
“The riots in Kolkatta are Nandigram related.
How the fuk does Taslima figure in all of this ?”
lol…Because Bengal has a high Muslim population, and Nandigram has a even high Muslim presence.
Since, a large section of the participants in these protests are followers of Islam…hence Taslima was just a matter of time. Tomorrow you will have the same Nandigram protesters in Kolkata, include American presence in Iraq as a additional reason for rioting.
By the way, I agree with the comments made by Samik.
@rishi_khujur : I think your statement needs a little correction
“Because Bengal has a high Muslim population, and Nandigram has a even high Muslim presence.”
It should read – “Because Bengal has a high [Bangladeshi] Muslim population, and Nandigram has a even high [Bangladeshi] Muslim presence.”
I think this Naslima thing is something to do with most muslims being from bangladesh
@ Kaunteya
“I think this Naslima thing is something to do with most muslims being from bangladesh”
Nehi bhai…I have to say that there is little ideological difference between Bangladeshi or a West Bengali Muslim. Except for the dialect, and small physical features (if they are Sylheti) they are indistinguishable.
Those physical and dialect differences exists amongst Bengali Hindus too.
So bottomline, the Taslima Nasreen thing has to do with Nandigram being a ‘first prom-party’ event for overt Islamism in Bengal.
@ Kaunteya
and irony irony…our pseudo secularist friends, the neo-left vs papa left and ultra left are fisting it out.
Arnab,
I grew up hearing a slight alteration of the Vietnam slogan i.e. “aamar naam, tomar naam, bhulbo naako Vietnam”. And you’ll agree that it makes more sense.
While I am not infatuated with the Left in India, I had come to accept them as the least worst of the available choices in Bengal. Nandigram has made me think twice.
I think Bengal, and India as a whole, needs an alternative political choice which is secular and yet not a sworn enemy of the market – the sort of party that you, and many others who worship Ayn Rand, would possibly vote for. But then again, although I hate totalitarianism as much as anyone who has seen Hirok Rajar Deshe, there is a Protidwandi somewhere in me. I want to live in a country that has education and healthcare for all, and doesnt just say it’s a welfare state but actually is one. Perhaps more of a Satyajit Ray Bengal, but certainly one in which Ritwik Ghatak’s genius would thrive.
p.s. being a quizzard myself, i loved the blog on parnab.
Dear Arnab,
I had seen Anindita Sarbadhicary’s videos and I was wondering if the intellectuals (just being intelligent should suffice) have seen these videos. I shudder at Mamata Banerjee’s sudden outbursts (and her often comical one-liners) that are likely to flare up collective emotions. Has anyone heard her talk in a patient manner and offer a long term vision for the state, ever? But you have to admit she is the only person who has garnered the legitimacy to speak for the people of West Bengal. She has made a lot of sacrifices. I wonder why she does not surround herself with people who can educate her on sound policy-making and constructive argumentation. By the way, it seems Biman Bose had suggested Taslima Nasreen should leave Bengal. What a leadership!
I wonder what Amartya Sen would say about this new (?) culture of arguing physically (hat thakte mukhe keno?). This practice of beating up the other person — not considered earlier as a fallacy — is an extreme nature of argumentum ad hominem, I guess. But you hit the nail on its head when you reminded us of Jyoti Basu’s legacy. Public memory is fleeting, and we make horrible mistakes in our efforts to put together cause and effect. If Buddha truly feels for Bengal, he must revive good scholarship in our schools, colleges, and universities. Nandan, Academy and film festivals can wait. I hope Buddha persuades Benoy Kongar and other comrades to shut up for some time, and learn how workers of the world are uniting in capitalist open source social networking sites such as wikipedia, youtube, facebook, and flickr. Hopefully that learning will help improve infrastructure (e.g., connecting villages with optic fibres; roads on top?). Amendments in the 1894 Land Acquisition Act are due as well. Lakman Seths are the new zamindars.
And in all this, the common man (Hindu/Muslim/Christian/Bahai/whetever) of Nandigram gets f!@#ed (which seems to be the story of the common man in India). I doubt he really cares at the end of the day whether it is Joyi Basu, Budha or even MomoDi ruling him. It is shameful for us that we call ourselves the world’s biggest democracy and our people cannot take basic human rights for granted. I should have chickened out and not read the entire well documented post. At least, I would have been happier then.
So, INGSOC does exist.
@ Rishi,
What overt Islamism? Have you done a survey of Islamic beliefs in West Bengal and Bangladesh? Do you comprehend the differences between South Asian Sufism and Wahabbism? Look here, at first I thought you had something to say on the matter: that I was stoking communal fires by my remarks on the Bengali-Bihari divide. Well, now it seems that you are quite openly lumping every Muslim citizen in the same socio-political belief structure. This is the kind of myopic thinking that diverts people from developmental issues to communal one-upping, whether it’s caste, religion, or ethnic based.
Second, Rishi, your notion of Bengali Muslims is rather confounded by a small incident called the Bangladesh War of 1971. Was this divide miraculously manufactured by Bengali Communists or Indira Gandhi over two years, in the presence of a brutal Pakistani Army dominated government? Traditionally, the Bengali Muslims were not considered superior by the Babus: Bengali Muslims consisted of the bulk of peasantry and the majority of landlords were Hindu. However, the common denominator of language and culture overwhelmed the Islamic identity that they shared with their co-religionists all over British India. In fact, it was assumed until the Bengal censuses of the mid to late nineteenth century that Hindus were the majority population. So, the whole idea that somehow Islamic identity was subverted by the Bhadraloks is contradicted by the fact that Bengali identity developed in ignorance that Islam was the religion of the majority.
I think, Rishi, you do not comprehend the singular problem with Nandigram that Arnab has brought out: the opening of fissures within the Left Bloc government because the new policies deprive the majority of the party of the gravy train. In light of the new developments, I have argued that this breakdown of law and order can be used by various elements to foment communal violence.
Where ‘Bhadralok’, ‘chotolok’, and the rest come in from I cannot comprehend. You see, bandying about these subaltern theory terms only muddles the issue by confusing an urgent political issue with the same old class lenses. Moreover, and here I argue plainly, what is wrong with the bhadralok ideal? Do you want Bengal politics to resemble that of UP, Bihar, and Rajasthan or Gujrat? Well, the present CPIM government surely seems to want it. However, “bhadrata”, the standard notion of civility that has developed from Vidyasagar, Raja Ram Mohan Roy onwards has been deeply intertwined by notions of European enlightenment, which fortuntately/unfortunately the Bengalis being among the earliest to be colonized were the first to come into touch with. Let me be clearer still: the English existed in Bengal before the Bengali language was fully codified and constituted as a language. This is why the language has “sonnets”, “epic poems” based on Milton’s Paradise Lost, etc., etc..
Therefore, the standard of politics, society, and power expected also evolved from the English notion of ‘civility’. Listen, we have heard these “bhadralok” statements before, from some of the very same people who are now against the regime. So, what crime is it to be a bhadralok? What crime is it to earn a decent living, not be barricaded in by general strikes (Bandhs) and coerced by the local party office about issues such as your daughter’s marriage? These are universal expectations in a free society aren’t they?
My last post on this: Arnab, thanks so much for a brilliant article on the issue. I have my field exams next week, but your article made my lengthy (and perhaps super dense and boring) remarks worthwhile to myself. 😀
Vasabjit wrote:
What overt Islamism? Have you done a survey of Islamic beliefs in West Bengal and Bangladesh? Do you comprehend the differences between South Asian Sufism and Wahabbism?
Rishi’s response:
I dont know if you are a new reader or if you have read Arnab’s previous posts, but Yes..I know the difference between “South Asian” “Sufism”, as you call it, and Wahabbism.
I am not sure if you know of the similarities. In any case, you may want to check Arnab’s previous post where I have given reading references on the same issue.
Vasabjit wrote:
Rishi, your notion of Bengali Muslims is rather confounded by a small incident called the Bangladesh War of 1971. Was this divide miraculously manufactured by Bengali Communists or Indira Gandhi over two years, in the presence of a brutal Pakistani Army dominated government?
Rishi’s response:
Sorry mate…its not a *small* incident as you call it. 1971 is one of the most defining events in the history of Bengal. The fact that it took just 3 years for Bangladesh to forget the Bangla movement and fall into the lap of Islam again, speaks a lot of the divide that you so vehemently talk about.
And yes, this divide was a successful capitalization over 15 years (not 2 years) of the Pakistani Army’s highhandedness in East Pakistan.
And as for the ‘Bhadralok’ comment, take it easy…it wasnt as negative as your response makes it sound. Take it easy.
@ Vasabjit:
Since you are so eager to teach me the difference between, “South Asian Sufism” and Wahhabism….I would suggest that you read up on the ‘Faraizi’ movement and how it spearheaded Islamic resurgence in Bengal in the 19th century.
It might help you to know that the Islam that you see in Bengal today found its resurgence and lifeline under the Faraizi Movement (started in 1818 CE), led by Haji Shariatullah, A WAHHABI BENGALI MUSLIM WHO LIVED IN SAUDI ARABIA FOR 20 YEARS.
Also, know more about the real Dadu Mian and Titu Mir (not the self-delusional Mahashweta Devi version). You will know what i meant.
ur bang on in interpreting the conflict in nandigram as much more than a protest against forced land aquisitn & SEZs but the sad reality is none of the mainstream media has highlighted this when it goes abt judging buddhadev babu or the ruling left’s atrocities. the common man, yes even the so-called ‘enlightened’ few who are ex-ju/jnu, who peruse the sunday express cryptic crossword & rave abt the latest majid majidi film at nandan, is oddly vulnerable to ‘icons’ of democracy that s/he has created. barkha dutt, aparna sen, medha patkar r the only voices they’ll ever hear & i think its because it has become ‘fashionable’ to do so. (i respect aparna sen tremendously as a filmmaker but remb. even she couldnt resist certain cliches in ‘mr & mrs iyer’.)
we pride on being the largest democracy in the world & clamour to protect the rights of minorities, the poor, artists & liberals but display a strange apathy towards those who desire to walk the alternate path of capitalism. also, no other nation probably glorifies simple living, altruism, sustained denial of the self & its most urgent cares as much as we indians do. it is fine for us to reap the benefits of globalisation but all u’ll ever hear is that it is widening the gap b/w the haves & have nots in india.
what has been troubling me is the almost complete condemnation of the CPIM & CM by my friends frm JU who hold responsible positions as journalists or professors in bengal. they feel ‘ashamed’ to be labelled as bengali’s today & think bengal is suffering its worst fate since the days of curzon!these are neither artists/academicians who had once stood by as plots were being doled out in salt lake nor mamata di’s cahoots. they r the current generation of buddhijibis as u call them. i’d be glad to know what propels the mindset that unanimously denounces smthing (industrialisation/development) that they’d always demanded? wud love it if some of ur readers (profs/students)from JU wud care to explain the raionale behind their protests.
and no, pls don’t join the media. we cannot afford to lose the few voices of truth left today. 🙂
Absolutely brilliant and balanced analysis.
Well, nothing more to say. You have said it all.
Hopefully, someone would figure out which is more important peace or power.
My respect for you as a human being immediately doubled. Along with the high entertainment value-low consequence posts on bollywood, etc., this post clearly shows that, because you are running a blog you feel the responsibility to talk about what happens around us. A lot of us close our eyes at our convenience to uncomfortable events everyday. You could have chosen to do so but did not. I wish all of us had your courage
I believe that even if you weren’t a bengali you would have still taken up this issue. I am glad I’m your reader.
Great work greatbong
That’s the whole point I guess; It hardly matters what your viewpoint is as long as it is neutral. It appears so to me
Interesting:
http://www.indianexpress.com/story/241952.html
This is the most lucid account of Nandigram and certainly has opened a lot of eyes, certainly shows there is always more to wht meets the eye.
As disillusionment sets in with the current regime, alternatives will have to rise – and I just can’t see any good (or lesser evil) ones
Biman Bose said in the aftermath of the Tasleema Nasreen controversy,
“If her presence here causes a breach of peace, then she should leave”.
In the aftermath of many years of Big Brother style of ruling WB, ruining education, destroying industries, killing enterprise, stymieing growth, indulging in unnecessary minority appeasement, jeopardizing national security by encouraging border infiltration and countless other horrible atrocities which has caused breach of every possible attribute of progress, civilization, sanity and well being; one can only fervently hope that people like Biman Bose leave the face of the earth. Rather quickly. And he would do us a big favor by taking Jyoti, Karat and other members of the “old brigade” with him.
GB, really well researched article and written in a very dispassionate way. The real great point was the way you differentiated between Buddha’s actions and his perceived intentions. I also liked Vasabjit’s comment very much.
The people protesting against Tasleema should be shown the direction of the Bangladesh border and told to cross over rather than disrupt peace here. People like Tasleema are always welcome.
@Bongonari-
“I would encourage you and all your readers to read this analytical article and then revise your own judgement. The article explains analytically why putting our investments in small industries and rejecting profit-making large corporations will help the economy fare better.”
There was nothing analytical in that link. And that “Chiner theke shikhte hobe” line. Sighs! Now we have heard that same bullshit for more than 30 years. For a change, why dont you read Bob Nozick’s 1974 classic “Anarchy State and Utopia” with an open mind!
Classic quote 1:
Rishi:
“@ Vasabjit:
The Bengali-Bihari distinction amongst the followers of Islam, in my opinion is a typical Bengali Hindu self deluding theory.”
🙂
Classic quote 2: (almost at par with anything in the best of scripts)
HHBB:
“They used brickbats and acid AGAINST THE POLICE. God knows what they will use against us common folk. My state has failed. My country is failing. Ons small consolation I will draw as the inferno closes around me, the scoundrels of the CPM, Congress and anti-secular (i.e pseudo-secular) brigade, who are responsible for this horrific debacle, will be flung into the fire by the Muslims before me. I shall die with their screams drowning my own. So it will not all be wasted. Unless I manage to emigrate for good to golden antipodean shores first. And fast.”
:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
@yourfan2
“……..one can only fervently hope that people like Biman Bose leave the face of the earth. Rather quickly. And he would do us a big favor by taking Jyoti, Karat and other members of the “old brigade” with him.”
Quite rightly said. People like him and Benoy Konar are not making things any,any better.
@shivaji choudhury
you wrote–
IN GUJRAT , GOONDAS ARE ARRESTED AND PUNISHED BY COURT BUT IN BENGAL NO ONE ARRESTED TILL DATE.
WHY?
— er, here in Bengal, they are eagerly courted by the political parties. if the goons have enough scalps under their belt, they can quote their own price.
” A man by the name of Jyoti Basu, the leader of the CPIM.
Bengal was never the same again. ”
Huh..seem to be carried away by what??
Arnab,
You have outdone yourself. This is as accurate a description of the situation as possible. I have personally fought Red Union Terror in Calcutta, and am sure the only HR manager ever to have won (thanks to my colleagues, and the numerous friends I made in the para where our branch office was located). There was this interesting discussion during a gherao, where the Union honchos (all of them dressed in smart clothes smoking Classic no less) asked me if I watched Bengali movies. Confessing to be a fan of Ray, I said my other favorite is Tapan Sinha (? the pro-middle class director, in one of whose movies Soumitro Chatterjee, playing the old schooleacher thrashes a commie goonda with his walking stick). Shocked obviously, the union boss burst out, “But haven’t you seen Mrinal Sen?” I said that I detest the guy, he is dishonest, stupid, and incompetent, much to the consternation of the group assembled there.
First of all really found this article very good and well balanced. Thanks for directing me to it Driftwood. Second can’t really understand the furore about Biman Bose’s comment on Taslima – to me it makes complete sense. If her being in the city on extended special visa and refugee status causes security issues for citizens of Kolkata she should be seriously advised to find some other safer haven – it will be better for her too! As long as she’s not forced to leave or harmed in any way, I don’t find anything wrong with Biman Bose’s advise. The BJP of all people are now criticising him – hey guys, after GUJARAT, how can you be so absurd?
hey Ishani:
Interesting indeed, tomorrow your stay in Kolkata will be a big law and order issue too, as you are a Hindu and it is a big problem for the proposed greater Islamic republic of Bangladesh (which btw, includes West Bengal, Cooch Behar and Assam).
Will it be OK if you are kicked out Kolkata?
I can assure you, that you will be given refuge and security by the ‘Hindutva komoonaal phorchez’ in state of Gujrat.
Also, what I wrote above is a very viable possibility in the next 50 years (remember 1947..when half of Hindu Bengal was kicked out of 70% of Bengali territory by followers of Islam)
@ Ishani Duttagupta
“can’t really understand the furore about … If her being in the city on extended special visa and refugee status causes security issues for citizens of Kolkata”
Three words to help understanding. Extremely dangerous precedent.
“The BJP of all people are now criticising him – hey guys, after GUJARAT, how can you be so absurd?”
By your logic, after the slaughter unleashed by Islam for 1,200 years, it will be absurd of Muslims to decry any alleged injustice against them. After Sep 11th, they should not even dare to open their mouths to say ‘boo’.
Unless you believe that there is a special set of privileges for them.
Gujarat has been discussed at length. Modi’s worst crime is informed inaction. CPIM’s is active slaighter and treachoury. The Left colluded against India during the formation of Pakistan.
Piano wire.
What a shame! Tasleema has been moved to Rajasthan. Isn’t that a violation of the constitution?
I guess I am wrong. They are just ensuring ‘public order’. Democracy of the mob, for the mob, by the mob. Wonderful.
———————
The Indian Constitution, while not mentioning the word “press”, provides for “the right to freedom of speech and expression” (Article 19(1) a). However this right is subject to restrictions under subclause (2), whereby this freedom can be restricted for reasons of “sovereignty and integrity of India, the security of the State, friendly relations with foreign States, public order, preserving decency, preserving morality, in relation to contempt of court, defamation, or incitement to an offence”.
———————
@ Arijit
correction.. democracy of the ‘islamic’ mob, for the ‘islamic’ mob, by the ‘islamic’ mob.
Comon, say it after me….practice a few times and finally we can get the courage to speak the truth.
Btw…ishani di..
shoonchen…ekbaar amaar shonge bole dekhun, ,’islamic mob’..ektu cheshta kore dekhun..kotha ta theek berobe mukh diye.
@ Rishi:
The books on Islam that you have read are the nineteenth century one’s written by Britons. I am pretty sure because your interpretations are directly from these works. I have read them, too, but being a History minor for my PhD makes me wonder whether the same hate that Islam has toward Others is not a universal phenomena applicable to members of all religions. Have you read Bankim Chatterjee’s “Kapalkundala”? Remember “Sey odhom boliya aami uttom hoybo na keno.” It roughly translates into “for he is fallen, why should I not be virtuous”.
So, do stop pouring your communal bile about disenfranchised Bangladeshi and Kashmiri Hindus. Your name is a link to an organization possibly sponsored by glorious diaspora organizations that covertly and overtly support a disdainful North Indian notion of Hindutva imposed by the BJP and, consequently, an interpretation of India to the outside world based upon such a conflation of a reified Hindu identity and the modern nation-state of India. Perhaps, your simplistic rendering of every issue as some broad communal conspiracy is perhaps the externalization of your own insecurities about your self-identity.
I have worked on Bangladesh and Kashmir in various capacities for varieties of people; we shall not get into how or why you are propagating a package of incomplete information. I really don’t care about the broader Hindu diaspora of Bangladesh. No, I do not, not anymore than I care about the Eskimos. They are Hindus and knew the consequences of being a minority in a highly politicized relgio-ethnic environment; they should have come to West Bengal or Tripura (perhaps Assam) after partition. In fact, the “sarba haras” who came into Calcutta, first in ’47 and then in ’71, supported the Left Front; bit by bit, they used their muscle to destroy the industries and basically intimidate the local population into submission.
Anybody who abides by the Constitution of India is an Indian, a Bharatiya, a Hindustani, whatever you may call him or her. Whatever particular language they speak, whichever parochial school they go to, and whatever criticisms they have of India. As CNN-IBN noted, a number of these Muslims are Bihari and UPites; I just stated that they may be originally Bihari and UPites, but they are Bihari and UPite Muslims who may have migrated from Bangladesh. Now that being said, if they abide by the law, then why not give them a chance at a better life, integrate them into society? You can use your demonization of South Asian Muslims on the Capitol Hill shows where you shall receive a sympathetic hearing from all too eager quasi racist Republicans. Do not try such a tactic with people who have had to interact with Muslims on a daily basis and depended on them for their lives.
VB
P.S. Arnab, sorry for the post, but I had just about had it with communal kerosene being thrown into the Calcutta fire.
@ Vasabjit:
huhhhh…..me connected to ‘racist’ republicans…propagating north indian notion of Hinduism imposed by BJP…me reading my history from British books.
The link of the site in my name http://www.factusa.org has nothing to do with Republicans or Democrats or Congress or BJP or CPM.
It is a initiative to educate people about realities of the past and present and to avert future social catastrophies through preemptive community awareness and solidarity. And believe me, it is supported by educated and passionate people like you.
-Why dont you focus back on the intellectual discourse, rather than badmouthing me as a person?
-Can you disprove anything I said or wrote?
Sir…even though i agree with parts of your comments about the Left, I have to say that you are just pouring out bile about somebody about whom you know very little.
PS: I have read Bankim and I admire his work. While I re-read Kapalkundala, you go back and read Anandamath.
@ Vasabjit
and btw, I am surprised that you didnt say that I am a CIA agent, trying to destroy the ‘komoonaal harmony’ between “south asian” bhai-bhehens and trying to sell F16s and P3 Orions to lost brothers on all sides.
@ Vasabjit
While you are at it, know about some logical fallacies such as the straw man. Do not pull the Hindutva rabbit out of your magic hat to defend curtailing freedom of speech by ruffians and hoodlums.
And my humble suggestion is not to bring in the religious angle in any of this debate. We must cultivate the practice of defining these issues as law and order problems, and not invoke religious sentiments. Now please not willfully obfuscate this simple logic with postmodern rants invoking Foucault and the domination of the state etc etc. Thank you.
@Ishani-
“If her being in the city on extended special visa and refugee status causes security issues for citizens of Kolkata she should be seriously advised to find some other safer haven – it will be better for her too! ”
Clap clap clap. How convenient. How low can you pseudo seculars stoop to? So this sets a precedent for any random policy change or action because one set of people protested against it. But this kind of thinking on your part is not a surprise actually. Enshrined in the tenets of the Indian pseudo secular follower is the fundamental axiom that Muslims can be never be wrong. Bash Gujrat. Bash Hindus. Bash Modi. And then say that you are an equal oppotunity hater. So you will highlight and reiterate and amplify perceived cased of injustice against Muslims while turning a blind eye to Islam invoked atrocities. So in this case, its not the fault of the irate mob, but that of Tasleema Nasreen! Ever wondered why the Muslims in US or UK cannot raise such demands against Salman Rushdie?
“Second can’t really understand the furore about Biman Bose’s comment on Taslima”
Oh dont worry darling. Blind people cannot see. The deaf cannot hear. People deluded by pseudo secularism will not get it.
Thanks Arnab. Knew it was coming from you.
But even after a couple of hours on this post, the various external links and the comments section, I’m still not sure I fully comprehend the underlying issue. Perhaps I have a real small brain, but does killing ever makes sense ?
GB, did Amartya respond/remark? He taught a course here last sem
on the philosophy and history of freedoms – this year the WB case
might pose new challenges since it was a crisis for liberties
caused ironically by witholding heavy-handed state machinery.
Also Ashis Nandy who has written on the ‘Fate of Dissent’ at
the hands of state machinery might have to face new challenges.
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2007/11.01/03-southasia.html
GB, let me pose (the above “challenge”) it as a basic clasroom
philosophy question: if a bunch of lawmakers have the majority
to bend the legal definition of state machinery (in this case to
include their party cadres) then can any state decision (say, local
adminstration-wise, not necessarily questioning the Constitution)
be deemed extra-judicial? Is loss of individual freedom enshrined
in democracy (ie in rule of majority)? At a more human level, if
I eat a creature that is not killed by myself but by an authorized
agency, what is the rate of reduction in impact of that violence?
How distant must the agency be from oneself for reasonable
sanitization? (I am posing open questions, no answer demanded.)
I’m neither secular nor pseudo secular – in fact I don’t believe in secularism. But I think that the people of Kolkata need a break from complete breakdown of infrastructure – if you live in Kolkata by supporting such vague causes you are creating problems for yourself. I think economic growth, employment generation and political stability are far more important for West Bengal today than vague Leftist mumbo-jumbo. As for Taslima Nasreen – I think she understands her own good and has hence moved to a safer haven! Wish her all the best!
@ Ishani di:
Thanks for agreeing…
Did u say Tasleema “moved” to Rajasthan?
1. I agree with all comments considering conflation of the present crisis with secularism. I also agree that the issue should be taken as a law and order problem, not a communal one.
2. I agree with all comments that consider that the state machinery in WB has been totally colonized by the CPIM and, consequently, rendered useless as a neutral monitor and enforcer of law and order.
3. Also, I agree with the fact that minority rights does not entail the subversion of majority rule. A balance is required for democracy to be functional.
3. However, I disagree with those who attempt to instrumentally use this by using such incidents to make broad unjustified generalizations about minority communities. I have seen this being done stealthily by various organizations connected to the Hill. These very same organizations are directly and indirectly connected to the VHP, Bajrang Dal, etc., etc..
4. @Rishi: I am ‘fundamentally’ in disagreement about your explanation of the Calcutta crisis and its connection to Nandigram. I also think you are either being naive about this awareness raising organization or are unable to distinguish the subjective from the objective. Google my name, perhaps, it may enlighten you about my credentials as an ultra Marxist world peace oriented intellectual.
5. @ Arijit: I do not locate my arguments in the holy trinity of the Coffee House: Foucault, Derrida, or Chomsky. I just believe in a decent “bhadra” society where the “mind is without fear and the head is held high”. This can be achieved by system of minority rights, majority rule, and a neutral state mechanism. The first is being taken advantage of and last has been subverted for thirty years (both because of the same political party), thus, my warnings about subverting the middle pillar.
VB
VB
@ Vasabjit
Appreciate your disagreement with me on Kolkata riots.
Dude, which part of factusa.org is naive?
Also, help me understand the misdirected “objectives” of any of the projects http://www.factusa.org or its allied groups work on. I will gladly convey your valuable opinion to the concerned people.
Looks like u have worked with USINPAC before, and I am sure you know Sanjay Puri.
USINPAC (indirectly) and Sanjay Puri (directly) were involved with http://www.factusa.org for its work on Kashmir.
You will not find anything with my name on google, except a series of comments from this forum.
Could the current spate of protests also have something to do with the new Indian media, multiplying TV channels and an increasingly assertive urban middle class who have realized that what they lack in votes, they can make up in SMS’s
@Yourfan2
There was nothing analytical in that link. And that “Chiner theke shikhte hobe” line. Sighs! Now we have heard that same bullshit for more than 30 years.
I have a suspicion that you just leafed over the pages, and read the name “Chin”(China) several times in part 1 of the article, and rushed to the comments room! Please forgive me if I am mistaken 🙂
Had you read it all, and especially Chapter 2, where the meat of the matter lies, you wouldn’t probably have discarded it as BS! And, really? we have been hearing this for 30 years?? You mean from the CPIM??? I thought the CPIM is running precisely the opposite line – “karur dekhei kichhu sikhbar nei!”
🙂
ha bongo nari…that was amazing
I would like to add that I totally refuse to classify a demented, rampaging mob of criminals as either Hindu or Muslim – that I feel, is a disrespect to people’s religious belief. I believe in Hinduism in democracy and equality of human beings – and feel that this is a good enough package to take me through life without confusing myself with all kinds of other -isms. Will also add that according to international laws, immigrants and visa holders don’t have the same rights & privileges as citizens of a country. In fact, many seem to be forgetting that granting of visas in most cases is at the discretion of the host country. I’m sure, I can’t under any circumstances seek unlimited visa status in Bangladesh or anywhere else (neither can any Indian author of repute). You may have forgotten that Narendra Modi was denied even a simple visitors visa to get to the US, in fact, his visa was cancelled and this was done keeping in mind law & order considerations. Surely the government of India and West Bengal should also have law & order considerations in mind! I don’t recommend any kind of harrasment of Taslima Nasreen, however I strongly believe she is better off in a host country which is more neutral and less volatile than India and some others! I think this simple logic should not escape her high intellect either.
On Nandigram: A Rejoinder to the Calumny of Jayati Ghosh
In the following article mailed to a number of recipients, Jayati Ghosh has tried to defend the indefensible, the gruesome violence unleashed by the hired mercenaries on the villagers of Nandigram on behalf of and under the patronage of the CPIM, as a political party, and, more significantly, the West Bengal government led by it by means of a counterattack on the critiques of the diabolical act. Not for nothing it is said that “offence is the best defence!” And Jayati Ghosh is nothing if not a faithful soldier of the Party, ready to spring to its defence, with a bit of intellectual halo around her. And if ends justify the means, then sacrificing of truth in carrying out the mission is only a small price to be paid.
We’d attempt here to subject the article, appended below with paragraphs numbered, to a systematic analysis.
In the paragraph [1], Ms. Ghosh pretty sanctimoniously proclaims that the “current events in Nandigram in West Bengal give rise to many emotions, but one of them is surely a sense of shock at the cynicism and irresponsibility of some apparently progressive activists and artistes”.
That of the many emotions evoked by the current events in Nandigram in Ms. Ghosh, the foremost one is “a sense of shock at the cynicism and irresponsibility of some apparently progressive activists and artistes” and any sense of horror at the violence perpetrated by the hired mercenaries backed up by the state figures nowhere in the list speaks for itself.
That the “apparently progressive activists and artistes” include people very much known for their grit and integrity and also daring engaged too long in struggles against injustice and inequity at great personal risks, quite unlike Ms. Ghosh, is another matter altogether.
Then she talks, rather fleetingly, of “a struggle against land acquisition” and the “victory (in that struggle which) was won several months ago”. No, not to warmly welcome the victory or the struggle, but only to belittle and deride it by implication.
She also talks of the “struggle” as being a “local conflict”.
It has two dimensions.
At one level, it cunningly negates the fact that the struggle was one of the peasants and other sections of the rural population against a proposed SEZ threatening to expropriate them of their lands, livelihoods and thereby dignity and lives. This is by no means a local phenomenon. It is being done under a national policy initiated lately by the Central government, propped up by the CPIM, against which the CPIM also routinely vituperates. Not only that, the struggle of Nandigram acted as an exemplar and fired up struggles all over the country in a spectacular fashion and thereby forced a rethink on the Central government, and just not make the state government beat a reluctant retreat. So this is clearly a case of dishonest and malafide deception.
At another, it is even more dangerous. Why “others” should involve in a “local conflict”? Whatever happens there, even if mass murder – or loot, rape or whatever, it is nobody else’s business. The implications are too disturbing. Does someone remember: “Workers of the world unite!”?
In the paragraph [3], she says, “Nandigram became the centre of a fierce dispute on rumours that the hub would be located there”. That’s just a big fat lie. Though the Party functionaries, even at the topmost level, had mouthed it to slander the resistance. The Chief Minister himself had to admit as much. (See.http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/mar/15nandi.htm )
It is a notification issued by the Haldia Development Authority (HDA) on January 2 2007 indicating the approximate size and location of the projected SEZ that triggered the turmoil. No, it was no “rumour”. It was, in fact, a sort of reconfirmation and further elaboration of another notification issued awhile earlier.
Her contention that “(w)hen the West Bengal government originally planned for a chemical industrial hub somewhere in the region of the Haldia petrochemical complex, Nandigram became the centre of a fierce dispute on rumours that the hub would be located there” is rather transparently self-contradictory and mendacious. She herself tells us that “the West Bengal government originally planned for a chemical industrial hub somewhere in the region of the Haldia petrochemical complex” and yet “that the hub would be located there (in Nandigram)” was a rumour. That’s clearly meant to deceive through plain and simple mendacity.
The description of the broad popular resistance is of course less than accurate, and in fact deliberately misleading, more so as this fact – the trigger for the resistance, remains misrepresented. Rather significantly, Singur has, however, been explicitly acknowledged as a major factor shaping popular reaction to the (unacknowledged) notification.
She has broached here the much touted topic of “the eviction from the area of other local people mostly associated with the ruling CPI(M), amounting to more than 3000 people who have been forced to live in uncertain conditions in makeshift refugee camps some distance away”.
There is not much point in challenging the figure of the displaced. Even the fact that the whole area after January 3 got divided between the two warring camps – anti-SEZ/chemical hub and pro-SEZ/chemical hub, leading to people from both the camps, though in clearly asymmetric proportions, getting displaced is of somewhat lesser significance.
The fact of people getting displaced must be explicitly acknowledged as unfortunate.
But then, we’ll also have to look into why it happened and why the situation remained so for the last ten months or so. We’ll come to that later as we go along.
Paragraphs [4] and [5] are very important. Unlike the run-of the-mill party appartich, she admits quite a few things here. The most important one is of course: “There is no question that a number of mistakes were made by the state government in this whole process, which had a dreadful outcome and did not even manage to ensure that the displaced people could return.” But what stops us from congratulating her for this act of admirable frankness is the casuistry that closely follows. But before coming to that we’d also like to point out that she has acknowledged here, even if not too explicitly, that the notification – she, it needs be noted, never mentions when it had been originally issued, was withdrawn only after, and not before, March 14. The “Government of West Bengal withdrew its “incorrect” notification and announced formally that it would not proceed with any plans for an industrial belt in that area” [after] “the struggle against land acquisition and for retention of the land by a section of the local people and their political allies was successful”.
Then comes the twist in the tale. “This is, incidentally, one of the few cases of any state government in India in recent times responding to local dissent in this manner, despite the protests in many other states with regard to land acquisition for Special Economic Zones.”
A heroic victory of the people against the massive brutalities of the state government, as exemplified by March 14, with more that a little help from the Kolkata High Court in the form of a prompt judicial directive on March 15 for a preliminary enquiry into the state-led blood bath launched on the previous day leading to forced withdrawal of the marauders in view of the impending visit of the CBI team on that very evening has been attempted to be turned on its head – as an act of rare responsiveness on the part of the state government! Almost like picturing the dethronement of the Tsar after the storming of the Winter Palace as an act of rare recant and voluntary abdication! Not for nothing, the CPIM and the government both viciously attacked the court for spoiling the game. There was absolutely no spirit of responsiveness. Even the three major allies played a role in causing the reluctant retreat
Here it must be categorically mentioned here that the decisive difference between March 14 and November 5 was the High Court directive of March 15. The radical segment supporting the struggle must take note of that.
And Nandigram just did not shake the state government; it fired up struggles all across the country and forced a rethink on the Central government as already mentioned above.
Where Singur failed, Nandigram succeeded. Evidently, the (imputed) graciousness of the state government is not the key. In fact, nowhere else in India struggle against land acquisition has met with so huge brutalities – not even in Kashipur or Kaliganagar.That tells us a lot about the character of the Party and the government led by it. (In fact, it gives us a chill in the spine when we consider that the Party here is, all said and done, running a coalition government and the Central government is led by its traditional challenger notwithstanding the temporary truce.)
Even in its tragic eventual crushing, Nandigram will forever remain a milestone in the annals of popular resistance in India against the predatory state promoting elitist “development” regardless of broader social and environmental impacts. (It is of course not to discount the possibility of its phoenix-like rise.)
The most major point made by the subsequent paragraphs is essentially the central point here and also for all other apologists of the CPIM and its unspeakable brutalities.
“Why the evicted were not allowed to go back?”
That actually leads us to another question: “Why they got evicted in the first place?”
They were evicted not because they were followers of the CPIM. They were evicted, or they themselves fled, because they were, for good reasons, seen as the accomplices of the predatory state, and their immediate principal agent Laxman Sheth – the Chairman of the HDA and MP from the adjoining constituency widely known as a strongman, out to grab their lands and rid them of their livelihoods. The example of Singur before them rather conclusively established that nothing short of physically overpowering the state is going to deter it. That’s obviously a tall order and a serious business – by no means a banquet or a work of embroidery. The way the people of Nandigram cut themselves off from the outer world after January 3, reflected this grim realisation and determination in ample measure.
Then came March 14. A huge armed assault by the state police to crush the resistance. A lot of blood flowed. But the resistance survived. The evictees not only remained on the other side of the divide, they, at least some of them, did actively participate in the armed assault.
And only after March 14, under public pressure and the three major allies, a categorical assurance was given that there would be no chemical hub in Nandigram.
But by then things have got pretty much complicated.
In spite of occasional contrary noises no compensations or help were provided to the victims of March 14 violence. Nor was there any credible enquiry instituted. In fact the High Court was highly derided for ordering a preliminary CBI enquiry.
Be that as it may, any reconciliation would have called for these two actions as the minimum preconditions. The government doggedly refused. (The High Court, in a much belated judgement on November 16, has issued a severe stricture against the police atrocities on March 14 and ordered a full-scale CBI enquiry.)
The CPIM/government also actively and openly sabotaged all attempts at any meaningful dialogue. It had once been initiated by Jyoti Basu. He had even a meet with Mamata Banerjee. The follow up actions were just not taken. Then, by Ashok Ghosh – a very senior leader from the Forward Bloc. He also met her. But open non-cooperation from the CPIM killed this effort.
That pretty much explains why the evictees, the perceived blackguards, could not get back.
The claims made by the CPIM as regards their peaceable intentions are nothing more or nothing less than mere hoax. The claim that “numerous attempts were made by the state government to find a political solution by trying to engage with the parties” is just not true. Only local level meetings were offered without any assurance of relief, rehabilitation, compensation or any credible enqury into the violence of March 14.
In between, Brinda Karat had screamed US/imperialist conspiracy. This time, the final signal came from her on November 4, in a public meet, from by the side of the Chief Minister, “Dumdum Dawai Ditey Hobey” (“mob violence will have to be employed”). The following morning came the avalanche of armed hired mercenaries with the police deliberately looking the other way with all accesses to the area blocked for the media and social/political activists for more than a week.
“The continuing [low-level] violence of the last six months received very little attention in the media” (para [10]). That’s just not correct. One, however, cannot expect as much attention for daily road accidents as in case of a war. Moreover, all attempts at peace, which led to the two initiatives mentioned above, were effectively scuttled by the Party and government as already made out. A senior RSP leader has publicly declared that the decisions taken in the March 17 Left Front meeting (see http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/bline/2007/03/18/stories/2007031803870100.htm and ), held at the demand of the allies, were scandalously flouted and no honest attempt at reconciliation was made by the government. He said as much that his party thereby finds itself “deceived”.
The charge of social activists not visiting the Khejuri camp is also pretty much specious. These were, at least there were, armed people enjoying state patronage murderously hostile to anyone sympathising with the resistance.
The tirade against the Governor (para [14]) for taking a courageous stand is just on the expected lines and merits no comments.
The observation, in the para [11] that “Medha Patkar of the Narmada Bachao Andolan has announced that the struggle of the people of Narmada and the people of Nandigram are the same, and has likened conditions in West Bengal to those in Gujarat under Narendra Modi during the post-Godhra riots. Both of these extraordinary statements betray a poor understanding of her own movement in the Narmada region as well as of the pogrom in Gujarat, and damage her own credibility” would have just evoked laughter had the situation been not so grim.
Even then, the parallel with Gujarat, in terms of the methodology – not the agenda, is only too obvious. Of course the territorial spread and consequently extent of damages in terms of life and property in Gujarat was far larger. But the intensity of armed violence employed and the brazenness of the state government in the face of widespread public criticism in Nandigram have even surpassed Gujarat.
In fact, the public comment by the Chief Minister Buddhadeb Bhattacharya that “they have been paid back in their coin” in frank defence of more than a week long massive armed operations by a private militia and the state turning a blind eye to it has much gone beyond even Modi’s much berated, and quite justifiably so, comment that “every action has a reaction!”
And the thread of continuity between Narmada and Nandigram is obviously broadbased popular struggle against the all-mighty state out to brutally snatch away their lands and means of livelihood regardless of social and environmental costs and the impacts on the lives of the marginalized in particular in the name of mega “development”.
In conclusion, we must add that even at this stage if the CPIM wants to restore its credibility as a Left party it must immediately halt violence against its opponents. It must also immediately take initiative in forming an inclusive people’s committee including all stakeholders – representatives of all the political parties and also non-party organisations involved in the struggle, to monitor and oversee providing of relief, rehabilitation and compensation to all the affected without any discrimination. A credible public enquiry must also be instituted into the whole shameful episode and the guilty from all the sides must be brought to book including state functionaries regardless of levels.
Even in Gujarat a judicial commission headed by a Supreme Court judge is functioning.
That’s the only way West Bengal can set itself apart from Gujarat, not through diatribes by the Party loyalists.
Sukla Sen 20.11.2007
suklasen@yahoo.com
On Nandigram
[1]
The current events in Nandigram in West Bengal give rise to many emotions, but one of them is surely a sense of shock at the cynicism and irresponsibility of some apparently progressive activists and artistes. What is also shocking is how the local conflict – which continues to lead to tragic loss of life – is still being portrayed as a struggle against land acquisition, when that particular victory was won several months ago.
[2]
Because the media reportage relating to Nandigram over the past few months has been so misleading, it is easy to be confused about the situation on the ground and the nature of the demands of local groups that have given rise to the continuing conflict. So it is worth recapitulating briefly the unfortunate sequence of events.
[3]
When the West Bengal government originally planned for a chemical industrial hub somewhere in the region of the Haldia petrochemical complex, Nandigram became the centre of a fierce dispute on rumours that the hub would be located there. A series of missteps by the state government and its representatives, as well as concerns among the peasantry created by the wide adverse publicity from the land acquisition at Singur, led to a situation where violence broke out in protest at possible land acquisition in Nandigram. This violence, involving not only local people but also the main opposition party (the Trinamul Congress) and some Naxalite groups, led to the eviction from the area of other local people mostly associated with the ruling CPI(M), amounting to more than 3000 people who have been forced to live in uncertain conditions in makeshift refugee camps some distance away.
[4]
It was the effort by the state government to bring these people back to their homes that led to the tragic and deplorable incident in mid-March, involving an incident of police firing which killed several people. There is no question that a number of mistakes were made by the state government in this whole process, which had a dreadful outcome and did not even manage to ensure that the displaced people could return. However, the state government also reconsidered its earlier plan and in effect abandoned the idea of locating a chemical hub in Nandigram.
[5]
So the struggle against land acquisition and for retention of the land by a section of the local people and their political allies was successful – the Government of West Bengal withdrew its “incorrect” notification and announced formally that it would not proceed with any plans for an industrial belt in that area. This is, incidentally, one of the few cases of any state government in India in recent times responding to local dissent in this manner, despite the protests in many other states with regard to land acquisition for Special Economic Zones.
[6]
It has been clear for several months now that no land will be acquired in Nandigram, by the West Bengal government or anyone else, for the proposed chemical hub. And therefore there will be no displacement of those who currently occupy or work on the land.
[7]
Nevertheless, and remarkably, the “struggle” in Nandigram continued, and the flames of violence continued to be fanned by those whose aim was not so much the interests of the local people but a broader destabilisation of the state government. It is evident to anyone who has cared to inquire into the situation since March that the “protest” in the area, led by some political groups, has continued even after all the demands of the original struggle were met. The area has been kept in a state of turmoil and those poor peasants and rural labour families who were displaced at the start of the year during the land acquisition protest have not been allowed to return to their homes, but forced to stay in refugee camps.
[8]
Roads leading in and out of the “liberated area” have been blocked and armed groups have patrolled and controlled the area. The state administration has been effectively kept out, along with the displaced local people, to the extent that even basic health services and polio immunisation could not be provided. Development work was at a standstill. Sporadic violence has continued with periodic loss of life, creating a completely untenable situation in the area.
[9]
Obviously, things could not continue in this way, and numerous attempts were made by the state government to find a political solution by trying to engage with the parties responsible. However, all these attempts were rebuffed, and the reasons why are now fairly clear. The most recent violence has come about as the displaced peasants and workers have once more sought to return to their homes and the state administration has sought to bring the area once more under the control of the authorities.
[10]
The continuing violence of the last six months received very little attention in the media, but the recent clashes have been in the full glare of publicity, with massive outcry from some prominent activists and politicians. The behaviour of the opposition party and its leader Mamata Banerjee may come as no surprise, given her past record. What is surprising, however, is the way that some “progressive” activists have responded to the latest events.
[11]
Thus, Medha Patkar of the Narmada Bachao Andolan has announced that the struggle of the people of Narmada and the people of Nandigram are the same, and has likened conditions in West Bengal to those in Gujarat under Narendra Modi during the post-Godhra riots. Both of these extraordinary statements betray a poor understanding of her own movement in the Narmada region as well as of the pogrom in Gujarat, and damage her own credibility.
[12]
The activities of the NBA in the Narmada Valley have essentially related to three demands: ensuring that submergence is at the minimum, lowering the height of the proposed dams to minimise displacement and securing adequate compensation and rehabilitation for the displaced people. It should be fairly obvious to anyone that none of these demands is at all relevant in Nandigram since there is now to be no land acquisition and therefore no displacement.
[13]
So then what exactly are the demands of the protest in Nandigram? They seem to be that those who were evicted from the Nandigram area from January onwards are not to be allowed to return, and that the state government is not to be allowed to function in that area, even for the provision of basic public services. Extraordinary as it sounds, these are the demands which are being implicitly supported by the activists and artistes who are now decrying the actions of the state government.
[14]
It is even more bizarre to see the Governor of West Bengal, a gentleman who surely should know better, behaving in what can only be seen as a blatantly partisan manner, condemning violence of one side but not the other. Indeed, he appears to have played up and aggravated a situation which was actually close to settlement amongst the local people involved.
[15]
What is most tragic of all is that the local people who are actually suffering through all this, through enforced evictions, violence and killing, may not even know that their interests are not the issue, and they are no more than the tools of a cynical and manipulative political plan.
Jayati Ghosh
Very well written Arnab!
Here is the link that you have mentioned in your post..
@Ishani
Wow! What an observation!
I feel rishi_kujur has given an apt response-,” tomorrow your stay in Kolkata will be a big law and order issue too, ……..Will it be OK if you are kicked out of Kolkata?” to your earlier observation.
To your comment in the last posting “Surely the government of India and West Bengal should also have law & order considerations in mind!” I would like to say that don’t you think this would act as a dangerous precedent.Anybody who would have an objection to anything would create a law and order problem in the state and then the cause has to be removed to restore normalcy…..???? Isn’t it insane?
Try to differentiate between the next two comments:-
“Every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction”
“They were paid back by their own coin”
If the first one was a gem coming from Narendra Modi, post-Gujarat 2002, the second is a jewel from Buddhadeb Bhattacharya, post-Nandigram 2007- a CPM chief minister being indistinguishable from a BJP one.
I hope everyone remembers that CPM-ruled WB gave shelter to Qutubuddin Ansari, the face of Gujarat riots and now we see Taslima Nasreen being sheltered by BJP-ruled Rajasthan. If this isn’t poetic justice, then what is?
Last comment was made by Shovon roy
As usual, the fundie pack (HHBB, Rishi Khujur, and Yourfan2) and some others have managed to change the discussion from the land dispute and political warring, to one about Muslims and their ever pernicious effect on the oppressed Hindu society.
Whatever the subject of the post may be, some things never change due to a combination of tunnel vision and a one track mind.
As far as I know, in Nandigram, there were many Muslims affected by the rioting. But both the victims and the oppressors had many Muslims in their ranks. BUPC, Maoists, and Trinamool on one hand, and the CPM on the other, had their own gangs fighting each other. And both sides had substantial numbers of Muslims in their ranks as well as Hindus. So I fail to see how this is a “Run! The predatory Muslims are coming!” issue. But of course I am sure the F-pack will have some reason.
As for the Kolkata riots, it was so obviously engineered as a diversionary tactic, that I am amazed we are even debating the issue. The organization who led the protest has never hitherto been heard of. Suddenly it is powerful enough to lead a violent protest?
Also, the protest ostensibly was about Tasleema. And suddenly I hear that it was ALSO about Nandigram, where Muslims were killing Muslims! Suddenly they decide to rush the Police with weapons. Army called in. People’s attention diverted. No arrests. No convictions. No problem!
@HHBB:
You are seriously considering migrating? Please do. All the best. 🙂
ishani wrote:
however I strongly believe she (Taslima) is better off in a host country which is more neutral and less volatile than India and some others!
Rishi’s response:
Why exactly is India volatile and not neutral when it comes to Taslima?
Thought it was a secular democracy with equal rights for all.
@ Shan
You summarized it well…welcome back
As a citizen of India my rights are somewhat different from Taslima Nasreen – I believe I pay more taxes than her in India to begin with – so I will not be removed from Kolkata while she may be!!! But Bangladesh is a different story, I dont think any of you bleeding heart liberals will be welcome to stay there indefinitely!
@ Shan :
Oh, I am so rhetorically sorry; I’d forgotten that the dreaded M word is taboo for the anti-seculars. We are no longer permitted to mention that Ms have aquired so much audacity that they are now starting to beat policemen with brickbats and acid. In the capital. And that too the capital of a state that has acquired national infamy in mollycoddling and pampering every M fancy.
The Calcutta attack was ‘not’ an M v M one as Shan is trying to draw the discussion to.
I also find it amazing that the tacit implication here is that as Nandigram involves Ms vs Ms, it should not cause any ‘undue’ bother to Hs. The point is that a huge number of Ms, especially in S.Asia are highly violent, and given their mass poverty and exploding population, the burgeoning masses of their unemployed radicals increasingly seem to be finding find any pretext to engage in their heart’s desire.
“So let’s burn 50 H women & children in Godhra today. Tomorrow’s booked, we’re bombing Mumbai. Wednesday’s completely out, we’re going on a trip (some light terrorism in Coimbatore), followed by stabbing some H pundits in Kashmir on Thursday. I’m free on Friday, so we can stalk Taslima then and throw acid over some Bengali policemen”.
It is becoming apparent, that every M problem, even exclusively intra-M ones, from Lebanon and Palestine & Sudan & WTC, inevitably spills over to hurt other communities. Bangladesh in 1971 was primarily an M vs M conflict. It cost the lives of arguably 2 million Hs.
On a lighter note, please tell me where you live, for if I migrate, I shall ensure that I do so at least 500 kms away from it. Otherwise the fragrance from your lubricating oil may be too overwhelming 🙂
Anonymous :
“Every reaction has an equal and opposite reaction” (Modi on Gujarat revenge attacks)
“They were paid back by their own coin” (Buddhadev on slaughter at Nandigram)
I think the creme de la creme of comments is “When a giant tree falls, the earth below shakes”. Rajiv Gandhi. After murderous Congress goons had massacred 3,000 completely innocent Sikhs in Delhi. An incident, which unlike Godhra, had ‘not’ been preceded by a general mob burning children and women alive.
@ Ishani Duttagupta :
“I totally refuse to classify a demented, rampaging mob of criminals as either H or M – that I feel, is a disrespect to people’s religious belief”.
Even when a rampaging mob is solely M? Even when the mob is assembled, and the violence executed, exclusively for a religious purpose? Even when the attack is a jehad? Even when they clearly
If so, your motive is undoubtably noble, but would I be correct in concluding the approach is a trifle naiive?
“I believe in H in democracy and equality of human beings – and feel that this is a good enough package to take me through life”
Like you, I too believe in equal treatment for all human beings, and all faiths. But the problem does not lie with the likes of me, as the issue is not one of Hs trying to dominate Ms. The issue is an undeniable takeover by Ms of people’s liberties and geographies the world over, not just in India. Countries like England, France and Russia are palpably experiencing this. Very soon, with an increasingly hostile and swamping M population, propped up by cowering domestic policy makers and petro-dollars, the liberties you and I cherish so much will be lost.
Thus my growing concern, if not growing alarm.
@ Ishani:
“….any of you bleeding heart liberals will be welcome to stay there (Bangladesh) indefinitely!”
lol…If supporting Taslima’s fight against Islam makes me a bleeding heart liberal, then so be it. Thanks for calling me a bleeding heart liberal.
@ Hujur, HHBB and ‘millions’ of people on this forum who choose the lowly path of supporting Hindu revivalism, did u hear that…
we are the new bleeding heart liberals.
@ rishi_khujur : “Hujur, HHBB and ‘millions’ of people on this forum who choose the lowly path of supporting Hindu revivalism, did u hear that… we are the new bleeding heart liberals”.
Actually Rishi, Ishaani was unwittingly hit the mark.
The ‘secular’ lobby (for want of a better word) want equal treatment and peaceful co-existence for all faiths.
The ‘Hindutva’ lobby want the same. They do not believe in eradicating others.
Both parties are also acknowledging that Ms are growing increasingly aggressive.
Where we do differ is :
(a) the reason for that aggression
(b) how to stem it.
The Htva group claims that such aggression is a natural outcome of the M faith. Active steps need to be taken to stem and counter this, otherwise left to it’s own device, it will grow and engulf other peaceful nations, exactly as it has demonstrated through its history.
The secular lobby vary in their outlook. The perceptive and intellectual ones accept that there is violence in the M faith, but this is being stoked by anti-M actions, and social progress will ultimately tame the anger. These are the views propunded by WTF & Ishaani.
In my opinion, the firt point (why the anger) is academic. The real issue is, how to thwart the clear and present danger, which both parties acknowledge is real. The secular lobby take a peaceful (& thus passive) approach, the Htva group are trying to do something about it.
I think history demonstrates that a pacifistic approach will fail. I also believe that ongoing events will help in assisting this group to realise that while their motives are undeniably noble, they cannot stem the rise of M extremism.
I thus seriously see a better alignment of the views of WTF / Ishaani & me / you Hujur etc.
Beneath both these groups lie the ones posing as ‘secular’, but in reality harbouring a twisted and hidden agenda (divide and rule, exploit the people etc). I inculde the Congress and Communists firmly in this camp.
And in the end, outside the pale of all 3 parties above, resides Shan. 🙂
I am completely bewildered by the turn of events at the protest rallies called by the Minorities Forum. Whereas I am quite impressed with the analytical logic propounded by Arnab, I failed to understand how a purely socio-political movement of the residents and land owners of Nandigram was highjacked by the crude fundementalist cry for crucifying Taslima Nasreen. I see a definite secret plan for diverting the incendiary anger of the common man. Will be it presumptuous to assume that the red brigade may have a hand in it ?
@Har Har Bom Bom
I do see the point you are trying to make. In fact I have also come across a lot of people who put themselves in the ‘secularist’ bandwagon, primarily because they are ill-informed and often totally unaware that just a “anvil” approach to dealing with followers of Islam, is a recipe for disaster.
It has to be a “hammer and anvil” approach.
The good thing however, is that more an more people are coming around, thanks to a more communicative world.
But are we getting enough people to reach the threshold of coordinated activism?
Is our method of raising people’s threat perception by helping them intellectually “connect the dots”, efficient enough?
How do we channelise the energy.
@Shovon Roy- “hope everyone remembers that CPM-ruled WB gave shelter to Qutubuddin Ansari, the face of Gujarat riots and now we see Taslima Nasreen being sheltered by BJP-ruled Rajasthan.”
Brilliant point. So do you see the duplicity here? I remember all the claptrap that took place that time. People went to tie rakhis in his hands and all that. Ishani may say that Tasleema is not a citizen of India unlike Qutubuddin. But I would argue that Tasleema has been granted visa by the Indian govt, not by the WB govt. So she has the right to be in WB. The onus was on the govt to send out a message to those zombies that this kind off behaviour wont be tolerated. Instead now they get the message that “Yes, we have the means through violent protests to pressurize the govt. to tow our line”. With the CPM under attack over Nandigram, Biman Bose and all dont want to alienate the support base that they use to distinguish themselves from the right wing and hence thought that Tasleema was an easy sacrifice. By cowtowing to the mob pressure, the WB govt sends a message that “The Republic of India may have found it allright for Tasleema Nasreen to be given a national visa even after considering her past actions. But we cannot afford to affront minorites in our state by supporting her cause, especially at a time when we are under so much attack from all sides. So we buckle to the demands notwithstanding how insane and unjustified they are. This has nothing to do with logic, but all with vote bank politics.”
What I find really appalling about Ishani’s logic is that she refuses to see the blatant religious impetus behind the mob’s demands in the first place and then squarely lies the blame upon Tasleema for her physical presence in WB! Tasleema did not set vehicles on fire. She did not throw acid bottles at the police. It was the mob that did it. The logic by which she exonerates the behavior of the mob and understates their religious motives is baffling to me.
But was this a fair treatment? Lojja, that contoversial book was written many years back. And the last time such kind of demands were made was in 1989 by that Iranian lunatic, Ayatollah Khomeini. So the WB govt indirectly supports Khomeini like demands. After this, the left has lost all right to point fingers at the right. If you call them communal, so are you. By the “same coin”. Only a different side.
@Bongo Nari- Umm….yes the Left parties, doesnt matter which flavor they were, were the ones that gave birth to slogans like “Chiner chairman amader chairman” and even supported China during the 1962 war. “Amader karor theke shikhte hobe na” was actually a snub the efforts of enterprise, but there have been plenty of times when the China shadow loomed over their policies or the defense of those policies.
Now coming to your article, trust me it doesnt take much time to read it. There is nothing abstract or mathematical. So why should it warrant so much time to study? Basically, he showed the flaws of China’s labor structure and thus favored small scale industries. Note that he didn’t give any proof to what he said. He just plain speculated This did not work in China. So it will not work here. So many people will be put out of jobs etc. Plus I don’t agree with the concept of minimum wage although I do not support the case of indentured labor. Also, his way of thinking seems to shun any sort of external inputs and trade. it is rather inward looking. It is nothing but another flavor of utilitarian economics. But it assumes a frictionless transfer of wealth and completely ignores the benefits of comparative advantage.
You should also take into consideration the incentive to work and self improve. In your model of choice, you assume that labour quantity will be the same as you predict. As we have seen over many years, the quantity of labor and capital will both decrease bringing down the economy as a whole.
Please have a second look at comparative advantage. I am not for any sort of private enterprise, but one which will bring some kind of comparative advantage to the people of the state. Your idea of solving the unemployment problem ultimately boils down to fair resource allocation. But there is another school of thought and that is why I referred you to Nozick’s book. It does not matter if resources are shared equally. The amount of goods, property and services that an individual will get from the economy will be proportional to his contribution to the economy. Yes, this will create disparity between the rich and poor. But I believe its more fair as it protects property rights.
One particular line which I found extremely distasteful was his advice to govt to block out big companies so that small ones can flourish. Is this a new thing in WB? 🙂 And what results did it yield? Try to give the concept of “equality of opportunity” a chance rather than “equality of resources”.
@bewildered-
“am completely bewildered by the turn of events at the protest rallies called by the Minorities Forum. Whereas I am quite impressed with the analytical logic propounded by Arnab, I failed to understand how a purely socio-political movement of the residents and land owners of Nandigram was highjacked by the crude fundementalist cry for crucifying Taslima Nasreen. I see a definite secret plan for diverting the incendiary anger of the common man.”
I would tend to think differently. As this report says, it was pre planned.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071123/asp/frontpage/story_8583116.asp
Its like you wanting to have sex with a girl you meet in a public place. But she wont give it to you if you up and ask her just the same. So you need a premise. Phone numbers, asking out for dinner. Going out on dates. But your main intention is something else. Here this bunch of jackasses clearly got inspired by the Hyderabad varieties of loons and decided to disrupt peace using the Tasleema angle. But they needed a premise. And however flimsy it was, they juxtaposed Tasleema Nasreen after “protest against Nandigram”. To me its like relating the subprime mortgage crisis to Saurav and Rahul getting bowled at Kotla yesterday. And they knew that the government would not be harsh on them, given their historical benevolence and current predicament. They kind of speculated that they can in fact be successful in their agenda. Which they did.
By the way I find that the short editorial on the homepage of Anandabazar under the title “Lojja” almost echoes what I said yesterday about Biman Bose. Also notice the eerie silence of pseudo secular blogs and media. They will go out on a limb for H bashing, but their silence on matters of M criticism speaks loudly about their hypocrisy. I would say that the author of this article has more guts and honesty than those pusillanimous pseudo seculars:
http://www.anandabazar.com/23edit3.htm
Communists of Bengal have a strong base here in Bengal which no other political party can uproot at least for the next 30 years. Mark my word!
bewildered wrote:
“I failed to understand how a purely socio-political movement of the residents and land owners of Nandigram was highjacked by the crude fundementalist cry for crucifying Taslima Nasreen”.
Rishi’s response:
Were you “bewildered” when innocent Hindus were killed by rioting Muslims in Maharashtra, because…….Saddam Hussain was being hung in Iraq.
Were you “bewildered” when thousands of Hindus were murdered in Dhaka (1964), because…..some relic was lost at Hazratbal in Kashmir.
Were you “bewildered” when Hindu temples were destroyed by Muslim mobs in Malaysia, because….US troops were searching for Osama in Afghanistan.
All this may seem completely unrelated to the Nandigram land dispute protest transforming itself into a “ailaan” for Islam against Taslima and those who host her. But the day you and others like you start to realize how closely related each of these events are and the thought process of those prepetrating them, works; you will only be “bewildered” by the accuracy with which you can almost predict them.
GB,
No matter what you write, people with their own agenda, but seriously lacking of faculties (wit, writing skills etcetera) are going to hijack your blog and repeat their sorry excuse of arguments and counter-arguments ad nauseum.
Makes one wonder – had there been no internet, where would all this bile be parked?
Stick to towel Vs torso fights I insist!
Actually I completely agree with the last post and am officially stepping down from any further comments. This post is a brilliant and outstanding one and should not be spoilt by ridiculous and completely irrelevant sub-plots. Also agree on the lack of writing skills – besides writing skills, many people above have demonstrated lack of logical thinking skills as well.
did any body see the first response of Imam of Tipu Sultan Masjid. It was on TV on local bengali news channel.
Just Joking but I don’t like you anymore GB. I think I should withdraw atleat in part my comment about you being irresponsible…To throw such a malignant cat among these innocent pigeons is too much
@Ishani- LOL. What a piece of cartoon! Its actually our fault for taking you seriously.But I am baffled no more! Unfortunately for you, this blog does not muffle comments which are not politically correct. Unfortunately for you, there is a plethora of people here who have displayed much more reason and logic than your dim-witted one-liners.
Just look at yourself and your sense of entitlement. What do you mean by saying that you are officially stepping down? Is this a company and are you the chairman of the board of directors? So what do you think? That people will beg you to revoke your ‘retirement’. Hah. The blog moves on. Just like that U2 song, “with or without you”.
You have a right to criticize. But guess what, I have a right to retort. LOL. Your comments manifest [edited out by GB because Ishani felt it was a personal attack] you actually are. Yesterday you said, “As a citizen of India my rights are somewhat different from Taslima Nasreen – I believe I pay more taxes than her in India to begin with..”. Wrong reason. You think that individual rights are commensurate to the amount of taxes one pays. Bravo! So you are nothing but a [edited out by GB because of above reason again] and as Rishi said, naive individual who prefers to stay in her own lil cocoon.
Your attitude towards this episode is shameful to say the least. And ha, even your hero Biman has retracted his statement. But then its useless arguing with [again edited out by GB on Ishani’s request]. And I am sure that many others on this blog who have got under your skin breathed a collective sigh of relief with me, when you proclaimed your superior analytical skills. Anything else would have been an insult. Its good that you have decided to shut up dear. You did not have any ammo to come back anyway. You’ve spoken enough! 🙂
@ Ishani
Please, please dont go…please.
This blog is unmoderated and allows diversity of opinion. A lot of information is shared here in a politically incorrect manner.
It takes some time to adjust to. Your comments were like slow half volleys outside off stump…ready to be dispatched over the fence.
GB, UN routinely laments on the grim situation of human trafficking in India, also notably that of young women from Nepal and B’desh via India. Wondering if Taslima’s case can qualify in this respect to prove state-sponsored trafficking (the only hope for WB is the “young” woman part)…
Chivalry is defined as the quality of a knight by which he rescues a captive lady from another knight’s castle to keep her in his, thus Modi seems to be taking a shot at chivalry now… iti dwikhondito damsel!
And when I said that India was run by thugs for thugs, you scoffed at me and said “we should learn from Sri Lanka”.
Well, atleast you finally wrote an article about the impunity with which political leaders in India abuse the population that elects them.
Hey yourfan2:
Ishani Dattagupta writes in her blog–
“the majority of Taslima’s supporters – at least on greatbong’s blog – are not liberal Leftists but rather the Hindutva brigade. What I gather is that the latter is a very aggressive group who given a chance would bulldoze anyone that comes in their way and reduce them to pulp”.
Rishi writes:
Lol man …feels great, those good old days of Nehruvian pseudo-secular intellectuals pampered by taxpayers money, peddling ultra-sanitized goop is gone.
Free-speech blogosphere, what a leveller.
O-knights of falsehood, you have to come back with knowledge this time…its not the corridors of JNU and Presidency anymore.
@rishi_khujur: Your post
“hey Ishani:
Interesting indeed, tomorrow your stay in Kolkata will be a big law and order issue too, as you are a Hindu and it is a big problem for the proposed greater Islamic republic of Bangladesh (which btw, includes West Bengal, Cooch Behar and Assam).
Will it be OK if you are kicked out Kolkata?
I can assure you, that you will be given refuge and security by the ‘Hindutva komoonaal phorchez’ in state of Gujrat.
Also, what I wrote above is a very viable possibility in the next 50 years (remember 1947..when half of Hindu Bengal was kicked out of 70% of Bengali territory by followers of Islam)”
Rishi,
Despite being a regular visitor I usually do not post in GB’s blog.
Your post’s are good food for thought, but I think you are wasting your energies at a wrong place. Bengal (along with rest of the North East) is a gone case. You cannot argue with these people.
Assuming you are a Bengali, then I think people like us should take a look at next 10-15 years and plan accordingly. This means, buy some land outside Bengal or migrate outside India to some peaceful place. That’s one way of preserving our culture.
My grandparent’s had to flee Dhaka, but I hope the fate will not visit my parents.
@ Rishi and others:
I absolutely adore people who pen hate under pen names. Why don’t some of you great leaders reveal yourselves? At least the Goebbels and Trotskies did not hide themselves. Write your real names and put down a location. The internet really acts like white bedsheets and pillow cases for you guys. Come on, why not, put down your names and locations: we will not kill you, nor hurt you, just see where and how you guys live. I mean, what causes so much angst? Virginity, perhaps an underpaid and overworked life, a bad boss, or a worse wife?
By the way, what you guys are writing can be construed as hate speech; actually, why not go to Park Circus in Calcutta or perhaps Nizamuddin in New Delhi and say all of this from a bullhorn? Why, you leaders of Hindu revival can really help recreate an authentic Hindu India? Such an India will not include internet porn, mutton chops and chicken rolls, or going out for a drink. Then, why not return to India, eat dirt, live in Salkia or Super Extended Greater NOIDA and join politics? Nah, let’s complain, let’s complain and think…oops, I hear the wife coming in…gotta go. 😀
Vasabjit Banerjee
Just an observation GB, the true ‘intellectual elite’ of bengal if i may say so are probarbly not those suckers walking the calcutta streets but are right here on this forum.
Excellent post GB, u are getting better and very very good comments by everyone specially HHBB & RK, u guys rock.
Get a newspaper to run this post somehow GB
Vasabjit wrote:
I mean, what causes so much angst? Virginity, perhaps an underpaid and overworked life, a bad boss, or a worse wife?
Rishi’s response:
No sir, its people like you 🙂
Vasabjit wrote:
Why, you leaders of Hindu revival can really help recreate an authentic Hindu India? Such an India will not include internet porn, mutton chops and chicken rolls, or going out for a drink.
Rishi’s response:
Well (blushes) I am a small man…no leader.
And why will a Hindu India NOT have internet porn, mutton chops or drinks…
this is not Islamic India.
Vasabjit wrote:
Come on, why not, put down your names and locations: we will not kill you, nor hurt you, just see where and how you guys live.
Rishi’s response:
Well ofcourse I do what I need to do, under my real name to affect ground realities. You are the last person I need to worry about when it comes to my safety.
Write to me at rishi_khujur@rediffmail.com and we can discuss more.
Vasabjit wrote:
Why, you leaders of Hindu revival can really help recreate an authentic Hindu India? Such an India will not include internet porn, mutton chops and chicken rolls, or going out for a drink.
Rishi’s response:
Why will a Hindu India not have mutton chops, chicken rolls, internet porn and drinks.
Lol..this is not Islamic India.
Also, I am a overworked, underpaid, virgin widower who prefers not to use the real name so that he can hide from someone like you. Now that you reassured me, I can sleep well from now on 🙂
You know what’s funny – I can bet if someone like Rishi had been born a Muslim, he would have been a hardline fundamentalist who would have despised Hindus indiscriminately. Or, if he had been born Christian, he would be stalking brownies like me, trying to save them from pagan hell.
I have a friend who’s convinced that religious fundamentalism stems from a lack of sex – one look at the Taliban and you know he’s spot on (also, he should know – he’s from Iran).
@vasabjit,
now you don’t have any argument, you have stooped to personal attacks.
Contest the points rishi, hhbb, yf2 et al are making, not the names they have chosen.
“why not go to Park Circus in Calcutta or perhaps Nizamuddin in New Delhi and say all of this from a bullhorn? “..You actually proved rishi et al. right by writing this. They are talking of a very possible future where the whole country will turn into a Park Circus or Nizamuddin etc., where differences of opinions are not tolerated, as you yourself have written. But if that future excites you, welcome, go ahead. But to us, this future is grim, and that is what Rishi is trying to say.
Rest of your post is an attempt at vulgar personal attack without any logic, and shame on you for that!
@Dodo: is this DoDo or one of the above under a pen name? Perhaps, you don’t the bigger point, my intellectually superior Lordship. None of these great heroes for Hinduism will last one hour in the political arena, or in any public arena in India. At least, Narendra Modi has the gumption to claim ownership for his statements. Delivering misguided, unlearned, biased statements on an issue, and spinning it to suit one’s own needs without even daring to claim authorship just reveals the cravenness of these attacks on sections of the Indian population.
You see, I nearly crippled myself permanently working for India in India. I hear these lovelies malign every self respecting Indian Muslim under the guise of hurt Hinduism. But they are unwilling to bear the cost of their policy advice because, hey, returning is out of the question. They will make Indians pay the cost of riots, civil disturbances, breakdown of law and order, and impose a life of fear with contributions to the VHP and the SIMI, but will bear none of the cost: it makes me completely and justifiably indignant. Ironically, it reminds me of all the jhola wallahs from JNU who had cushy jobs in humanities departments in the West and wrote diatribes against capitalist developmental models.
Don’t anyone here tell me about personal attacks. It is personal that most of you folks, colored, aliens in America, who have been called names and told to “go home” by pickup truck driving semiliterate Americans, been stared at in restaurants, or made rude remarks at, etc., want to impose the same rules in India.
And, I am ashamed at everyone who has not stood up and protected our minorities. Don’t we live together with them in India? So, because the BJP and the Hindutva nuts burnt alive women and children, are all Hindus bad, are Hindus criminals? Why impose the same logic on our minorities?
And, yes, if you do, then do so proudly, show us some truth, get some backbone and be recognized: don’t hide behind the purdah of the internet. Respect, especially respect for fascists, whether Hindu, Muslim, Sikh or Christian is not part of my religion, nor part of my principles. Those who have not stood up as strongly only condone such actions with their silence. I have visited a concentration camp and wondered how it was possible. It is possible because hatred becomes banal, an acceptable topic of discussion, an amicable joke; humans become objects like the stingy Jews, the cruel Muslims, and the devious Hindus; and, humanity becomes nail marks on gas chamber ceilings.
Vasabjit Banerjee
@Thalassa:
Good postulation.
But then why do you think Islam has way more “fundamentalists” than Hindus. By your theory all major faiths should be producing in equal proportion.
Either there is a problem with the Quran…or the Hindus are having a lot of sex.
As a Hindu I would really want the latter. Btw, I am in the US too and you can elp me become less fundamentalist. 🙂
Am up for it.
@ vasabjit
Your last comment was saner.
The topics you touched upon have already been responded to in previous articles from Arnab.
Read my comments on “Banana Republic”, “Seen this Fashion Bomb” and “Thanking for coming Again”.
That will pretty much take care of all your points.
“It is personal that most of you folks, colored, aliens in America, who have been called names and told to “go home” by pickup truck driving semiliterate Americans, been stared at in restaurants, or made rude remarks at, etc., want to impose the same rules in India.”…
Again personal attacks with preposterous assumptions. I live pretty much in India and have lived here all thorugh my life. But you have already judged me without having this info, but that doesn’t surprise me, because you people judge everything without verifying any fact, which is evident in all your comments.
Go on with your schemes, may we meet at the dawn of your ideal India, when the whole country will be Park Circus, and us the cowards will be sillent for once and all!
Rishi sweetie, why speak of others – your comments amply demonstrate where your issues lie. Your wife’s SRK love seems to be costing you dearly. Why not talk things over? Do you need help maybe – they do have blue pills for that sort of thing you know.
🙂
Hey..why blue pills..why not a threesome. 🙂
Lets meet halfway through..Chicago or St Louis?
Just saw your last comment. Ewwww, as if there’s any shortage of pervy Indian unclejis, now they’ve started stalking women in blog comments as well.
that previous one was in response to Thalassa
Thalassa u asked for it dear…lol. I dont get personal unless really poked. I am not much older than u.
Rishi kaku, get real – at your age, a threesome can be jaanleva. However, if a threesome is what your wife desires, then I’m sure the two of us can find a lot of hot young men who’d be more than happy to be of use. Now be a good Hindu husband and get her a ticket to the left coast – best New Year’s gift she’d ever get.
Thalassa:
:)….aar er aage aami kichu bolte paarbo na 🙂
my wife says hello to u too…loll
Interesting to see the ‘M’ debate getting more and more polarized and personal! Well… to each his own!
I have always found it interesting that some of the papers in the academic world and some studies quoted in the mainstream media take extreme positions even though it is clear, that they are presenting only one side of the story. The explanation offered by Prof. Dipak Jain who taught us marketing strategy, was that people are competing for eyeballs and mindshare; & a balanced perspective is really, not a priority. Hence, on issues where quantitative rigor is not possible, extreme positions, on an average prove more valuable in terms of TRPs.
Therefore, when Rishi & Hujur take up the M-debate, they usually grab everyone’s attention –including mine. However part of what they are saying is reasonable- their analysis of the core ideology of the religion in discussion, is logical! In fact, I would argue that the ideologies of the Abrahamic religions are broadly similar and are in marked contrast to the Dharmic religions. From an atheistic point of view, one could classify religious ideologies into ‘harmless nonsense’ & ‘dangerous nonsense’ and it is a no-brainer which category fits which. But back home, some serious efforts are underway to shift ‘H’ from ‘harmless’ to ‘dangerous’ bucket- but thankfully hasn’t happened yet and very unlikely to happen.
BUT, please note that the above paragraph is only a critique of the ideologies, not the people themselves and this is where I differ, markedly, with Rishi & Hujur. Ideologies influence, but whether they can actually control people’s behaviors to the point where a community’s behavior becomes predictable is something highly contentious. Thousands of variables influence human behavior; it’s hardly logical to conclude that one single variable, however strong, can monopolize in the influence it can exert!
Never underestimate the power of debate, especially on a high quality blog like this- as long it’s civil, open & impersonal!
This forum has been taken over by certain things called Rishi Khujur, Hara Hara Bom Bom and YourFan2. As has been said above by Shan, each and every topic that GB has written on lately has ended up into a Muslim hating diarrhea by these supposed Hindu revivalists. The grouping is like “Hujur, HHBB and ‘millions’ of people on this forum who choose the lowly path of supporting Hindu revivalism” (“Millions” on this forum@!(-;. GB how do you manage all your adsense money?), or “ones posing as ’secular’, but in reality harboring a twisted and hidden agenda (divide and rule, exploit the people etc). I include the Congress and Communists firmly in this camp” – the closest one can come to the famous Bushism “You are either with us or against us”. Our great Rishi of modern age writes that “tomorrow your stay in Kolkata will be a big law and order issue too, ……..Will it be OK if you are kicked out of Kolkata?” responding about Taslima Nasreen, who is seeking shelter in India after a Fatwa was issued on her when she wrote about Hindus in Bangaldesh. Our great protecter Rishi also routinely brings up the issue of Hindu being beaten in Bangladesh, but has he ever heard of somebody called M. F. Hussain? There is no fatwa (Hinduism does not have a provision for it, last time I checked) against him, but he cannot return to India thanks to RSS. By the way our Rishi is a “pahucha hua” person, he has connections with the Mukhyasarsangah chalak of RSS, he has brought down Romila Thapar in a public debate, he has friends who correspond regularly with Taslima Nasreen, has experienced the angst of “Rakhi brother” and is presently actively considering a threesome. I wish he was available to the Vajpayee governement during the kandahar crisis, he could have dropped some names with the Mujahidin who made the NDA government piss in there dhotis.As for the rest of the two, HHBB and YourFan2, I wonder if that is the same person commenting as the so called “Millions”. Only God or GB can tell (by checking the IP address)
@ land reforms in india:
some people on this website seem to be under the impression that zamindari was abolished in 1947.
i did some research and am absolutely shocked to find out that other than in Kashmir (Pandits were the main landlords under King Hari/Shiekh Abdullah’s primary plank of popularity amongst Kashmir muslims), West Bengal (partial) and Kerala, and few other pockets, the zamindari system is pretty much still in place even in 2007.
Kerala in fact has the most modern land laws outside the industrial world. that’s why when you drive through kerala you realize that everyone has a home there. which they had to leave to work in other places.
i am no leftist and i feel sad that it takes such extreme ideology to implement what is essentially a fair deal.
@ abolishing zamindari is robin hoodish:
how would you like it if office rents were 75% of profits?
there is no justification for feudalism. for example, even though abolishing the privy purses and titles was wrong in principle it was completely right in the larger scheme of things. i dont want to bow to a fellow Indian or kiss his feet.
under the land reforms land landlords cannot take more than 25% as rent. that’s fair.
—
this sounds a little hysterical but there is a consensus that the most valuable commodity in India is land.
most political parties are now deeply involved in grabbing as much land as possible. [see how the Congress has changed its headquarters for what price.. the Kumuraswamy Government has grabbed land in Bangalore in an unprecedented way.. it withdrew support from the BJP because they didnt want to give them the Home portfolio].
even people with remote political contacts are at it, sachin tendulkar wants to invest in a beachfront property or sourav ganguly is building a mall where he was alloted land for a cricket academy.
nandigram may reflect the new face of social and political problems this decade.
@ on the secular debate:
for once im going to have the pleasure of reading what other people have to say..
@ Ravi Ivaturi and Anthony:
on converting Harmless to Dangerous.
It was prophesied early in the 50’s that when Nehru died, the polity would fracture and resort to appealing for votes on the lowest basis -caste, language and religion. we have seen this happen through Mandal, the DMK and the BJP (though the Congress started it by allowing Shila Niyas in the Babri Masjid and overturning Shah Bano).
that is exactly what has happened.
Each of India’s pogroms, Direct Action Day (Muslim League), the Anti-Sikh Riots (Congress), the Babri Masjid Riots (Shiv Sena) and Godhra (BJP) have seen the instigating party romp into power at the next elections.
This is not counting the active destruction of the pillars of Indian democracy, federalism, the economy, administration and the judiciary by Indira Gandhi. This is what the Left has done in West Bengal too.
However, many believe that this is a sign of the deepening of Indian democracy. it is good that these active interests exist in political life. the only way to defeat them is to beat them at the vote box.
having lost democracy to the Left, West Bengal will make it stronger when it returns. we sometimes forget that all States have the support of the rest and that we are not alone in our fight for democracy.
who would have thought that laloo would lose in bihar? mulayam singh yadav complained he couldnt rig his election thats why mayawati won so many seats!
our country may be run by thugs but we have total studs in the Armed Forces, the Election Commission, the Reserve Bank, the SEBI and the Supreme Court. and it may not seem so but many a Babu works his ass off for this country.
there is so much to crib about but we have the freedom to crib about it. and no thug is going to take that away from us.
such a great post!
i was reading Noam Chomsky the other day. what happened to bangali intellectuals seems to me a classic case study of two of his concepts – “brainwashing under freedom ” and “engineering of consent”.
Just a general observation I like to make….
There are some NRIs primarily based in California, with strong loyalties (if not links) to RSS-led organizations, who seek to influence and steer debate on the internet and certain campuses. Forums have been compromised and distorted, “think-tanks” set up in US and a cpl of Indian states and a wide variety of tricks-sophistry and rhetoric and every type of logical fallacy (from Appeal to Extreme, Strawman argument to Appeal to ridicule) is used in this new endeavor. I must say I dunno if this is just because the net provides a very convenient, discreet soapbox (which many crave) OR if these “Face Dancers” popping up all over the place have bigger goals. Given the predilection of middle class (and up) Indians towards SMSes and internet discussions, the latter might be quite possible. This social engineering, though modification of affluent Indians might reap dividends later on…. commies did that from the early 60s but for a variety of reasons it didn’t gel as good as they though. However, the ground is now fertile for the extreme right for such a campaign.
Not that it’s wrong as such, everyone can ride their favorite ponies but the selective historical/political references, the innuendo, the quite one sided sources they draw on and the ultimate aims (and implications as I see it) makes this all….. quite wrong.
@Anonx
You have been following my comments and remembering them like a pachyderm. Quite impressive. I will call you when I want someone to write my biography 🙂
On a serious note to everyone…lets not get into personal attacks. I apologise if I have gotten personal in response to continuous personal attacks by others. Please read my previous comments on this blog, I never get personal.
@ Wanderer
If you feel that Hindu-revivalists have taken over intellectial discouse using “logical fallacies” and “one sided references”, why dont you come up your point of view using what you percieve to be logical and unbiased references.
People like Ravi Ivaturi, Sayon and sometimes WTF have attempted logical debates in the past and we have had fruitful discussions that educate everyone.
It also helps us increase my knowledge base.
If in “The Wanderer” ‘s comment above if “internet” is replaced by “English Media” and “RSS-Led organisations” is replaced by “Left-wing NGOs”, the exact same thing can be said of “secular, liberal, Kool-aid, Hindu hating” crowd.
Hmm… Your post is symptomatic of our society… so many words, and yet not even an attempt at a solution. Nice read, though.
@Rishi, does that mean you don’t remember your own comments or your own name droppings? Or do you forget in which avatar you said what? Your biography will surely be read by the “millions of this forum” so hurry up the work man, the world is waiting for it. And about getting personal, I consider it getting personal when you through your continuos verbal diarrhea on this forum keep bringing up the vision of Hindu being thrown out of India and such like. Terrorism, Hindu or Islamic, requires firm handling from the government. And your Hindu jingoism got us to as far as verbal “Hot pursuit” and nothing more. Your people are good at selecting and killing muslims who are helplessly outnumbered but start talking of self restraint when it comes to taking care of people like Dawood. The religion does not make a person to care about there nation, self respect does. If the government cannot take care of there citizens, it is a spineless government. It does not make a difference if it is led by a Brahmin Vajpayee or a Sikh Singh.
@Rishi “It also helps us increase my knowledge base.” – what was that again? Us is your multiple avatars and my is …?
@Rishi:
“Your comments were like slow half volleys outside off stump…ready to be dispatched over the fence.”
That one was actually good! 😀
I think even if Arnab wrote a post on the mating habits of duck billed Platypii (is that the correct plural?), Rishi, Yourfan2, and HHBB will some how get the discussion back to how Muslims are taking over India and how West Bengal will soon be called Bengalistan, and our women will be raped and children converted etc. etc.
How would that work? Let’s see assume Arnab makes a humorous point on how difficult it is to get a Platypus to mate because of obvious difficulties when it tries to kiss a female of the species (because of the duck-bill obviously :D), how would that be spun by the Holy Trinity?
Rishi Khujur:
“It might be difficult for Platypuses to kiss, but certainly not for the Muslims who are kissing our Hindu women all over the rural stretches of West Bengal. One thing leads to another and soon they will impregnate the entire female population in West Bengal. These facts are clearly available on this excellent objective web site hatemuslim.org. In fact, I was just discussing this with Vinay Katiyar during our weekly drinking sessions, and even Advanibhai agreed with me. That was just before I conveyed these stats in a call to Sudarshanji…”
HHBB:
“I totally agree with Rishi and unfortunately there are people like Shan on this forum who will understand it too late, only when they see their entrails spread out before then as a result of a Muslim’s sword, but by then it will be too late.
According to my studies, by 2010 76.5% of West Dinajpur will become totally Muslim. Current stats set the percentage at 15%, but the trends are upwards. Similarly, Rampur Hat, which has 19% Muslims now is slated to rise to 88% by 2009 end – all thorough murder, forced conversions, and genocide supported by the bleeding heart left liberal pinko commie Muslim combine. All of you should read this PDF murderousmullahs.com/oppressed majority_00001.htm.
If this doesn’t open your eyes to the global domination plans of the Wahabbi, Hizabi, and Tezabi sects of Islam, nothing will.”
Yourfan2:
“Duh…all liberals are morons….Matt Damon…duh.”
😀
@ the wanderer:
an interesting observation given the fact that the idea of khalistan originated and was supported from abroad.
also, rise in economic wealth always increases the clamour for religion for some warped reason.
bloody NRIs! leave us alone..!
@ shan:
say what you want about the trinity.. don’t mock Team America World Police (unless there’s a context i’m missing)!
or maybe their song can be like.. Hinduism ..fuck yeah!
Team India Vishwa Hindu Police.. now that’s an idea!
@Rishi- Lest I get accused of hijacking this thread, let me tell that this comment of mine is directed solely at you so that others don’t have to read it. This is not a personal attack against anybody, but just to ruminate on some aspects. I apologize for the digression from the discussion at hand but I just felt that the stream of attacks had become just too personally directed towards you, for me to stand up and congratulate you. Congratulate you for what? I shall tell you later. But first I would ask you not to dwell on left liberal women’s logic too much. They are extremely complicated creatures. Let me give you an example- read this article and the first comment after that you would know what I mean. GB also has an article called “Concept of Equality” on this subject.
First they wanted equality, and rightly so in the 60s. Now they want the upper hand in an increasingly pussy whipped society. They still want chivalry, equal pay for less work, more alimony amongst various other things. Most importantly, they will try to use their sexuality as a weapon. As an example, they will ban prostitution, encourage a legal system where you will have no recourse but to stay married and put every other constraint in your way where your sexual choices are cut out. Having done so, they will try to pussy whip you by saying, “Poor boy, see I have got so much game. And you?”. Its easy for a woman to say so. If she needs sex, she just has to order a pizza and answer the doorbell topless. These disciples of Andrea Dworkin are absolutely pathetic. The key to handle this situation is to behave like a gentleman only to women who believe in equality, and behave like a real a-hole with these left wing feminazis. That means no opening of doors, no giving attention to that attention w hore even when she makes personal attacks, and basically being a real jerk. These women love jerks. And after being around with every jerk in town, she would finally like to be a trophy wife to fulfill her motherhood dreams.
I know Rishi that you don’t indulge in personal attacks. I know Rishi that you are a feminist- the original 60s bra burning feminist, who wants equality. Just like you want equality in a pseudo secular society which has the menacing shadow of fundamentalism looming over it. You just tell it the way it is. But when some people (note I am not talking about normal people like Ravi and WTF) show a repetitive pattern of not trying to argue using counter-arguments, recourse to attack you personally with monotonous regularity, try to belittle you by speculating on your personal life and even try acting like an amateur psychologist, you know one thing for sure- You are talking something right! (pun not intended)
And I know Rishi that you missed the emerging danger signals in Bollywood where a Muslim director (Farha Khan) makes the Muslim Boy (Shahrukh Khan) eventually win up the Hindu girl (Dipika Padukone) and even mimicking Hindu Manoj ‘Bharat’ kumar!
@wtf:
You got the context!
Team India Vishwa Hindu Police sounds real cool.
“Matt Damon”
😀
Hey Shan,
I never said that all liberals were morons. Its just liberals who are psychotic; who refuse to see the obvious, being paranoid, that it will not differentiate themselves from the religious right that they despise; and the liberals who try to restrict people’s choices by banning things. And beleive it or not, there is a religious variety of liberals too represented mostly by pseudo-seculars. In the same way, I hate the orthodox right as much. But there is a difference between an orthodox right which was born in the first place to counter a rabid religious right more as a defense mechanism and an orthodox right which tries to preach morality and seeks mind control. Note that these two flavors may not be mutually exclusive and I may have to exercise a choice amongst the two sometime. So here my stance would be to root for the one which is likely to give me more freedom and independence. Thats from a moral point of view. From an economic point of view, I believe that the utilitarian theory is great but unimplementable in practice due to the inherent greed in humans. That does not make me hate people who espouse that theory. I would be the first to say that anarchy is near impossible and that libertarian theory suffers from the same trait that the Marx-Engel theory suffers- implementation in practice. We do need small government- but how small? Can a neutral rule of the law be truly possible? So thereby we are again directed to the collective will of the people even if it means compromising a stance. I am always willing to educate myself from all parties, to see the other side of the story, but not through diatribe, religious impositions or shoved-down-the-throat Marxism. But thats besides the point.
You misunderstand me. I lean right, and I abhor religious mind control, but sometimes I have to be wary of some religions more than others precisely because I feel that my emancipation would be threatened more by those religions. I respect the liberal views of Ravi Ivaturi any day. But I don’t exactly like the liberals who take offense at the utterance of the M word. I feel that by making certain discussions taboo, we would be fooling no one else but ourselves in the long run.
@ anonx
I have only one avatar man. You can cross check with GB.
The rest of your attempted caricature of me trying to raise threat perception is actually true.
See the booklets distributed to young followers of Islam in UK on how to convert Sikh girls to Islam.
So as you see, even your exxagerated gyrations (making fun of me), mimicking the contours of a inhuman Koran, has actually been attempted in some part of the world, in a Muslim-Kafir interaction.
If you want to see what actually is being done, write to me at rishi_khujur@rediffmail.com.
Shan and WTF
Thanks for all your comments. Some were funny.
Hey aryaputra Rishi,
Don’t go to UK for a thing so mundane. Right here in India – MP, Maharastra and Rajasthan – the Navratri Garbas are being strictly policed by Parivar, as the “Muslim” youth is trying to get in and elope with Hindu girls after dancing a few rounds of Garba. A particular community in central India have even banned there girls from covering there face while riding two wheelers, so that they can be identified if they try to elope with Muslims. If you, with your different avatars or no avatars, seriously think that these stray “elopement” incidents would make the world’s oldest continuing religion disappear, then the question is firmly on your belief on Hinduism.
Dear Annonx:
Its not about my belief in Hinduism.
It about your ability to condone violence against women by turning a blind eye to planned Kuranic violence targeting women just because they are Kafirs.
If the very idea and effort in such a direction does not abhor you, then nothing will.
@ Anonx
Do you know that the minuscule Hindu community in Pakistan sometimes has to pay local Muslims just so that their daughters can spend their teenage years without getting kidnapped and converted to Islam.
http://www.hinduhumanrights.org/Pakistan/harrasment.htm
Any place in the world, where followers of Koran are in majority, women face similar problems.
Now lets look at the whole picture my friend.
Places where Hindus are in minority, Muslims kidnap their girls and covert them to Islam (1200 years of history to back my claim)
Any place where followers of Koran are in minority, an aorganized and motivated attempt is made to convert non-Muslim girls (i can show you literature attesting to that).
Forget for a moment the Rishi Khujur is writing this.
Now as a normal thoughful person, you draw your own conclusion.
Very informative post GB, thanks very much.
The whole thing stinks of Bengali bhadralok hypocrisy riding on the back of a bunch of self-important morally and intellectually bankrupt ‘intellectuals’ (in the form of Orwell’s pigs, as alluded to by Aby the Original somewhere way above). The CPIM seem to be turning into psuedo-communists, maybe because the 21st Century has caught up with them. Will be interesting to see how they behave with the Maoists. Personally, the Taslima episode and its implications worry me
more than Nandigram (the latter being solvable).
@ Rishi Khujur :
I read the ad hominems against you, and wanted to highlight that these were unwarranted, but as I’ve been 200% busy, did not find time to do so. I come back to see that you have handled the situation with an ease and complacency that is your hallmark.
Keep up the good work my friend.
@ Shan : “I think even if Arnab wrote a post on the mating habits of duck billed Platypii (is that the correct plural?), Rishi, Yourfan2, and HHBB will some how get the discussion back to how Ms are taking over India and how West Bengal will soon be called Bengalistan, and our women will be raped and children converted etc. etc.”
I really enjoyed this comment, it was very humorous 🙂
On a sadder note, please note that a serious situation does exist in India, and is getting graver every day. This will have serious implications for us all (including the substantial number of good Ms) if left unchecked.
Not just India, but the problem is spreading over the globe like wildfire. This is not a panic-ridden response from a schizophrenic, but a calm assessment of what is obvious and becoming increasingly more so.
Ignoring the problem (how many people have even commented on the recent bombs in UP that have killed 15, including 4 lawyers, and injured 80) will not resolve the situation.
As an aside, Bengal is already gone. I have started transferring my (modest yet to me important) outside the state. My wife is serious about us relocating as far away from India as possible … what was once an idle musing for me is assuming a tangible shape.
After all, why should I compromise the safety and security of my tiny daughter when she grows up? Especially when the purported guardians of the nation are zealously dismantling the fences to let the hungry wolves in?
I recommend you give this due consideration too.
@Yourfan2:
You misunderstand me too. It is fairly clear that there is a real danger from Islamic terrorism and extremism all over the world. But when that label is extended to the entire community because of their “1200 years of history” of the way the are brought up, or vicious, communal stuff like that, I protest.
That’s all, but no matter how I try and write this, people who want to will read it as a wishy washy soft liberal naive response.
That’s the way it is, unfortunately. If the discussion is limited to Islamic terrorism, it can be participatory, but if it is limited, as it seems to be always nowadays, to the “M” word as a whole, the I refuse to discuss anything based on this premise.
Capisce?
@ Har Har Bom Bom
Many of my relatives in my grandparent’s generation “relocated” out of fear of Islam from what is Bangladesh today.
One of my good friends (Kashmiri Hindu) during my school days “relocated” from Srinagar to a city in central India, only to see rampaging followers of Koran burn down his house during the 92 riots. In a city which had supposedly only 15% Islamic population.
Now when I (and my family) work with all these issues on a daily basis, I sometimes do see the folly that we made by giving up territory under the pressure of Islam.
And WTF is right. Travelling outside India has helped us see the bigger picture. Its almost a birds’ eye view. And undoubtedly, the relative ease of daily life does help free up time for things that we care for. Not to forget the fact that I do get to interact with important and influential people from all over the world.
@ W.T.F : “also, rise in economic wealth always increases the clamour for religion for some warped reason.
bloody NRIs! leave us alone..!”
Ok, putting aside the tongue-in-cheek humor for a sec, a few days ago, you were heart & soul behind improving the material condition of Ms. All to remove any feelings of disenfranchisement that may occasionally haunt them.
Am I to conclude from your current comment that once the material prosperity of the average M in India notches up, the clamor of the religion of piece will become even more deafening?
You see? Catch 22.
was recently watching a PBS.org documentary – “Inside China”.
Xingjiang is mentioned in it. It is a pre dominantly muslim province of China.
Though not on the scale of Kashmir or Punjab this region has witnessed some amount of violence. No prizes for guessing that Islamists are looking for a separate state.
The chinese govt came up with a solution only it can come up. It is relocating millions of people to this region from main land china. The idea is the neutralize the “ill effects” of the majority muslim population. Basically converting muslim majority to minority to stem this problem.
India is doing the exact reverse.
@ kaunteya
China also made a not so secret deal with the Taliban during the 90’s where China would covertly supply the then Afghanistan government with necessary supplies in return for Taliban (and Al Qaeda) ‘s “aloofness”towards the jihad by Uigirs in Xingjiang.
@ anonymous:
hey ..great point.. you totally got me there..
considering that the middle class of muslims were the ones that most romanticized pakistan and moved there during partition, its not entirely inconceivable that material development may actually fund fundamentalism the way it has in hindus and sikhs.
however at the same time atheism has a major correlation to a high IQ and education(the reason why i am not an atheist).
but to clarify, the best known tool to reduce population is education, economic responsibility for children and reduction of infant mortality through healthcare- in general, development. i meant this as a response to the soft expansion of islam through demographic warfare that so terrifies HHBB in particular.
in order to contain fundamentalism it needs to be defeated politically, militarily (by legal force when necessary) and intellectually. that is why strengthening the institutions of democracy are the best response maybe not just economic development.
again you make an excellent point because right wing politics, whether the BJP or the Republicans, stand for better economics but also an expanded role for religion. the last thing we need is a muslim BJP. i hadn’t thought of that. thanks for pointing that out.
@ rishi:
China had major problems with the USSR including a border dispute that led to military skirmishes.
In fact the pact for military co-operation with the USSR was signed by Indira Gandhi at the USSR’s instance (not vice versa as it popularly believed) in order to contain China. Of course Indira Gandhi was only too happy to oblige.
So it is not conceivable that China would help an insurgency against the russians (that what the Taliban started out as).
bet your pardon.. i meant inconceivable..
1. Will state atheism (e.g. in some communist countries) count as fundamentalism?
2. Are atheistic hindus part of the Hindutva brigade?
This comment thread has digressed from the topic of Arnab’s post. The issue is (the lack of) good governance. We get what we deserve.
@ WTF
Good observation, but
The Taliban did not start out during the Soviet occupation.
There is a gap of almost 5 years between the Taliban and the Soviets.
The Afghan Mujahideen (the pre-cursor to Taliban) and Taliban share the same ideology, but they were involved in a bloody internecine war for almost 5 years.
In fact, Taliban killed a lot of earlier Mujahideens, most famous of whom was Ahmad Shah Masoud a.k.a the Lion of Panjshir and drove many others like Gulbuddin Hekmatyar and Burhanuddin Rabbani into a uneasy exile within their former fiefdoms.
Then Taliban and Al-Qaeda started collaborating. It is around this time that China stepped in to buy out the Taliban in return for “aloofness” in Xingjiang.
All this while the US was commiting one stretegic blunder after another, first in Afghanistan, then in Chechenia, then in Bosnia and finally in Kosovo.
Only if those state department Babus had read the Koran once.
Apologies for the delayed response. Parents a-visiting.
@Sambaran: “I like him as he is trying to do something.”
I like Buddha too because he, as you point out, has at least tried to do something. However his endorsement of cadre violence as just retribution cannot be condoned.
@Vasabjit: I do not think that a collapse of the CPM will lead to the collapse of the entire edifice of the government—people will just switch sides.
I totally understand how you must feel.
@bartimaeous:
Faint hope? Of what? That the CPM government under Buddha (which in some respects is Communist only in name) will be replaced by a Jyoti Basu-style “true” Comrade while the hypocrites and the sycophants cheer from the sidelines?
@WTF: As others have pointed out subsequently, I do not think the CPIM abolished the “zamindari” system per se. They however did create new power equations in rural Bengal, something that has served them well over the years.
@Samik: I would disagree. Disgruntled sections of the CPM have found an umbrella under the TMC and the Maoists and while they are politically not a power yet (which explains why “From 1967 CPIM and its allies have lost only once in that area”) they have enough influence to cause “trouble” (as nandigram has shown) given a potent issue (the rumor of land acquisition in this case) to rally around.
As to Buddha, the anger directed at him by the buddhijibs had taken root long before– when he started talks with multi-nationals. Nandigram again has been an unifying issue that has brought the bhodrolok under a common umbrella and allowed them to express their anger at the turn the “Bangshevik” movement has taken after the abdication of the Master Chief.
@Supremus: So as a known admirer of Modi (correct me if I am wrong) do you not admire Buddha for basically endorsing Modi’s “spontaneous combustion of angry people” theory?
@Thalassa: Thank you. And I totally agree with the rest of your comment about rural landowners wanting to sell and sharecroppers feeling betrayed.
@Rahul Ghosh: Thank you.
@Ananda: 🙂
@Akasuna no Sasuri: Having been brought up in Jyoti’s “Kella”, what options do I have?
@Bhopale: I agree with you in that 24/7 media and cellphones have made a huge difference this time as opposed to the 80s and 90s.
@Shivaji: I dont know.
@Ciph3r: I saw Derek on Barkha Dutt, channeling the shrill hysteria of Didi and like you even I couldnt help but miss the Derek of old who (and hardcore quizzers will sneer at this) could do really “fun” quizzes at Dalhouse Intitute (North Star etc).
@Vaibhav: Well Buddha is the single best CM Bengal has had after Bidhan Ray in terms of the prosperity he has brought, an achievement that stands in stark contrast to his predecessor. However will that make you excuse Nandigram?
@Dodo:
“But this time, I must say you have genarlized a LOT by painting all the buddhi-jibis by same brush calling all of them ultra- lefts, which they are not.”
No. Some of them are on the right too.
“And what kind of groups?? Salim?? A shady group known for human rights violation? ”
Spare us. Pepsi, Nike, Gap…..lets not start with companies that have been accused of “human rights” violations–as they say in Bangla “thok baachte ga ujaar” (rough translation: Trying to weed out cheats, we weeded out the entire village)
I wonder how you will characterize the development in Sector V that has happened during Buddha’s rule–what precisely is that? Why are so many Bengalis employed now as against the mid 90s? Why arent their michils of jobless “bekars” walking down Chowringee demanding jobs?
Please do wake up and smell the roses.
@Anirban: Hmm.
@Aditi: Romila Thapar with a Leftist “bias”? I mean isnt the word “Leftist bias’ a bit of underkill for Ms. Thapar?
@Anirban: Well I dont know whether Ms. Sen got her land from CM’s quota or not—I would not be surprised to know she did. What I do know is that she has remained silent and has always rubbed shoulders with the Left as long as truly followed Marxist ideals.
@Rishi: Progress in other states? Which states other than Kerala and Bengal does CPM (as opposed to Naxals) even have a presence? I think the CPM national strategy is to not even try for a share in any state other than Kerala and Bengal, simply maintain control in 2 states, get about 30~40 MPs and control national policy.
@Pijush: Hmm.
@Yash: “The biggest problem of course remains the ’solution’.”
So true.
@Aby The Original: I am hopeful of Bengal. That’s all I can say.
@Akhil: Thanks
@WhatsinaName: Hmm. With regards to your article, I think Buddha made it pretty clear (from video footage I have seen) that the notice was wrong, he took responsibility for the mistake and that he wont go to Nandigram. I wonder why you say that the notice was not withdrawn.
@Thakuma: Did you want me to make the post even longer?
@Harish:”Contrast this with your views on Gujarat. There’s no other side there. How can there be truth in what ‘communal’ people say!”
Evidently you havent read my archives. Of course things like facts should never get in the way of a tirade should they?
@Shovon Roy: Pardon me sir. But in that article I could not find any reference to a brick kiln of any sort. There was no reference of hundreds of people being burnt (which was what I asked you to give a reference for) —only 32 missing (many of whom may have been hiding in fear of the CPM).
@JAP: Thanks. We shall need to talk someday about this on Gtalk.
@Hara Hara Bom Bom: You, Rishi Khujur, Hujur, the Mossad and Deepika Padukone were behind this. I know it. I trust Idris Ali totally—he seems to be an honest balanced man.
@Rishi: Thanks. I have been reading, with more than a few chuckles, how the Right and to a greater extent the “real Left” has been portraying nandigram as “soft Hindutva” –a mere ruse by the communal Bengali powerclass to kill poor Muslims. Of course the fact that the perps are also mostly Muslims is not relevant. After reading such astute pieces of prose, I knew that it would be a matter of time before Nandigram would be violently communalized and voila….it has been !
@The Walker: The MSM has its own agendas and its own favorites. We all know that dont we?
@Turrtle: Hmm.
@Dibyo: Thank you.
@The Wanderer: Hmm.
@Thalassa: Totally agree.
@Corporate Serf: “How is it you still don’t unequivocally support property rights?”
I will. On a post that is about it. Thank you. As to Suman, I agree…he has been anti-CPM being a huge “true Left” person himself playing “saap ludo Bidhatar songe”.
@Atul: You are welcome.
@Shubho: Thanks
@Sandeepa: Of course TMC does not want any discussion –it does not want to solve the problem. Problems solved mean less reasons to agitate and that means Mamata didi has time to play Tetris and Prince of Persia. Which is a no-no. However whatever be the machinations of TMC, there is no cause that justifies violence unleashed on women and children. As I said the government could have called in the Army and razed the barricades of TMC goons—-no problems there.
@Bangonari:
“No informed person, who has been following the Nandigram incidents, will deny what started off as a mass-uprising against land-acquisition has shifted gears to ‘elaka dakhal er lorai’ between warring parties”
Keep drinking the “mass uprising against land acquisition” kool-aid dear bangonari. As an uninformed person (by your definition) I have no rights to drink from that magical jug.
@Turrtle: The riots are about radical Islamic intolerance. The mention of Nandigram is a clever afterthought just to get “informed” people shout “minority genocide” at the top of their lungs.
@Arup: That was the slogan verbatim I heard our old Maths teacher Ashubabu telling us in class. His story was about bangali youth shouting Amar naam tomar naam Vietnam and then catching the matinee show.
And oh I do not worship Ayn Rand. I only worship Prabhuji. For the rest, I use my brains.
@Arijit: I am sure they have. However denial is a very powerful emotion.
@ArSENik: Hmm.
@Ram: Did you just find that out now?
@Drift wood:
And I wonder why that is. Could it be because the “informed people” have agendas?
@Udayan: Thank you.
@VenKy: Thank you for those words. If I was not a bengali, I may not have had the perspective required to write this post…having grown up in Communist Bengal, there is a context to this story that I have “lived through”.
@Subha: Thanks
@Yourfan2: What I fail to understand is where Taslima Nasreen has insulted Islam. Its not as if she drew a cartoon of the Prophet or painted some holy Islamic icons in the nude. As far as I know, she merely pointed out the persecution of Hindus in Bangladesh and the systematic genocide that has been going on over the years. I fail to understand, based on this, how she has insulted “Islam” in any way. I may not ,of course, have all the information as I have not read Lajja though I have read Taslima’s sleazy tell-alls and they were quite poorly written.
@Fr: ??
@Sankalp: Indeed. Have you not seen Mrinal Sen—the Kanti Shah of the Left?
@Krishanu: Of course not.
@S.Pyne: “Is loss of individual freedom enshrined
in democracy (ie in rule of majority)?”
Pericles called democracy the rule of the mob.
@Red: Yes of course.
@Ishani:
You may have forgotten that Narendra Modi was denied even a simple visitors visa to get to the US, in fact, his visa was cancelled and this was done keeping in mind law & order considerations.
Actually no. There was no “law and order” consideration there but simple politics.
@Sukla Sen: Since I am not Jayati Ghosh (at least I was not the last time I looked) wonder why you feel obliged to copy paste an article (a propaganda piece) titled “A Rejoinder to the Calumny of Jayati Ghosh.” on this comment thread.
@Humsafar: Thanks
@Shan: “As for the Kolkata riots, it was so obviously engineered as a diversionary tactic, that I am amazed we are even debating the issue”
Engineered by who? Buddha to draw attention away from the calumny of Ms. Ghosh?
@Ishani: “n – I believe I pay more taxes than her in India to begin with – so I will not be removed from Kolkata while she may be!!”
Most of the dead in Nandigram dont pay any taxes. So may they be removed from their lands “just like that” and relocated to say Siachen Glacier?
@Bewildered: As I mentioned before, the Nandigram mention is an afterthought to what is fundamentally a show of strength by radical Islamic fundamentalists in Kolkata.
@Vaijayanta: You are right. Whether that is an entirely desirable matter is of course different.
@Ajay: I shall be going back to regular programming of towels and torsoes
@Sunny: No I didnt.
@Anthony: When you say “India is a country run by thugs for thugs” you make a sweeping generalization in which I detect more than a bit of superiority.
@Shourideb: Thanks
@Thalassa and Rishi Khujur: Aah a true East vs West coast rap-down in Tupac-Biggie style with mention of threesomes, out-of-marriage activities and sexual repression. I did enjoy that.
@Ravi:
@ rishi
Here’s a letter written by the former Governor of Assam Lt. Gen. S. K. Sinha to the-then president of India K R Narayanan.
As a non bengali indian all i can say is, there appears to be minimal hope for W Bengal. However, the rest of India must be eternally vigilant that these parasites are not allowed to spread. Give me murderous hindutva guys anyday 🙂
@ naiverealist.
Thanks… thats exactly what I am talking about (greater Islamic Bangladesh). And a person like SK Sinha , with so much experience in the field of intelligence and military operations could not have said it better.
A friend of mine (Shan and other critics can make fun of this name dropping), travelled in Bangladesh during the 90s as a tourist reporter and interviewed people including leaders of Jamaat. He was surprised to see them openly showing maps of entire Bengal, Assam and even parts of Bihar as part of “greater Islamic Bangladesh”. They have details marked out to the district level.
@ GB
The east coast vs west coast, Rishi Khujur /Thalassa episode earned me a few “raps” from my better half. I will stick to my field of xpertise from now on, Platypii. 🙂
It’s amazing that you have forgotten your ability secular-liberal-politics-mixed-with-humour posts like the one you wrote
here:
https://greatbong.net/2007/05/15/animal-crackers/
Otherwise there would have been something written along the same lines about the Taslima case.
Again a case of eloquent silence. Or maybe you don’t have time. But somehow you have all the time in the world when it comes to criticizing ‘communal elements’. Such disgusting double standards.
@Rishi – Your main observation was against Muslim boys getting married to Hindu girls, after receiving “How to phasao a sikh girl for dummys” from Muslim organisations. If girls of marriagable age are getting married to Osama Bin Laden, why should religion have a problem with that and where is the violance involved? As for “things happening” in Pakistan/Bangladesh, they are declared Islamic states. You have to try and declare India as a Hindu state if you want “a girl for a girl” kind of situation. I however appreciate your comment to somebody else regarding China policy. India has to respond to Islamic threat, and that is not same as Hindu has to respond.
@GB – You are right, Hindu militancy is small right now. Big things start small. This “Khatre mein” mentality has become a khatra, Khatre mein Sikhism led to Khalistan, Khatre mein Islam has led to Taliban, and now it is Khatre mein Hinduism, wait enough and you will see the consequences
anonx wrote:
“I however appreciate your comment to somebody else regarding China policy. India has to respond to Islamic threat, and that is not same as Hindu has to respond”
Rishi’s response:
Thanks for expressing agreement with my comment on China/Afghanistan.
But you are giving too much emphasis on geo-politics, too little trust on social-religious remodeling. I also began with a similar line of thought as yours, years back. At the strategic level, you cannot deal with a trans-national malady (Islam, right from its inception) with a nationalist approach.
Your success will only be at a tactical level.
India can try as much as it wants to blame “Pakistan” for all terror attacks, and contain terrorism in Kashmir by making Ikhwan-ul Muslameen fight with Lashkar or Geelani fight with Dar. It will all be tactical victories.
At the end of the day if Kashmir is to be part of India, the India has to deal with Islam (99% in Kashmir). And India cannot deal with Islam, Hinduism/Sikhism CAN.
Sadly, not Sivaji, not Gobind Singh or Lacchit Barphukhan understood this.
Maharaja Ranjit Singh was the only guy who understood this and you can see the swift strategic dominance over the entire North West that he achieved during his rule.
Most of the lands in Nandigram has been illegally encroached by illegal Muslim immigrants from Bangladesh. They will not get any compensation through legal means if any industry comes up there. And that’s the main reason why these (majority Muslim) people are opposing any industrialization and scrutiny of the land possession issue. Now they are working with anti-India, anti-Hindu forces. And vote bank politics is making it worse. Let media investigate this illegal immigration and land encroachment angle in Nandigram.
@ rishi:
“And (if) India cannot deal with Islam, Hinduism/Sikhism CAN.”
such patriotism.. tch tch..
i have noticed you complain on more than one occasion that kashmir is majority muslim.
yes, the expulsion of pandits has led to a the muslim majority being absolute in the valley but muslims have ALWAYS been in a massive majority in the kashmir valley.
if you think that something needs to be done about it (beyond the pandits returning) then you are legitimizing what the separatists say will happen to muslim majority kashmir in hindu majority india.
but sweety dont worry.. india can deal with islam AND hinduism AND sikhism. and the occasional riot notwithstanding it will definitely keep them from hacking each other to death.
islam is part of india just the way the potato came from south america and English came from Europe. deal with it.
@ arnab da:
i beg to differ on zamindari as abolition only took effect with Left initiated land reforms . you should also look at the radical form of panchyati raj instituted by the Left as a factor for the concretization of political power in west bengal.
rishi khajur,
I’ve read somewhere that in general, we tend to fall in love with (or marry) one or more partners, all of whom tend to look somewhat similar or have similar personalities or body types or similar facial features in common.
for example: If I have a crush on Matt Damon, you can bet I also like Mark Wahlberg and wanna date/marry someone that looks like them.
If this theory holds good, then your wife (who you claim is a SRK fan) must have married you because she may found some SRK-ness in you as well. IN that case, I really feel sorry for you ever since I glimpsed the “ghoulish-looking” SRK (with an ugly wig) in the Twenty-20 cricket stadium, as Arnab pointed out. Either that or your wife does not have 20-20 vision. 😀
j/k…
seriously, I feel you did the right thing by taking the higher moral ground by not responding to Thalassa’s taunts on your sex-life in the same vein. My respect for you has grown since then… as not many people take such “below the belt” taunts with such grace.
btw, coming from a staunch cpm family, I feel betrayed by what happened in nandigram. Is the spm really leftist? Or are the naxalites true leftists? If so, then how can they be so cruel?
I am shocked by this blog- http://naxalwatch.blogspot.com/
now, I am unsure which group’s left, which one’s right and which one’s wrong. I think you had mentioned a chapter of an online book in a different GB post which I read recently (see below) and makes sense to me now…. we do need a “paradigm shift” and correct re-evaluation of the “left” and “right” terminology – which the media and intelligensia blindly apply to the Indian socio-political scene (by copying the western labels).
http://bharatvani.org/books/civilization/partII10.htm
“I wonder how you will characterize the development in Sector V that has happened during Buddha’s rule–what precisely is that? Why are so many Bengalis employed now as against the mid 90s? Why arent their michils of jobless “bekars” walking down Chowringee demanding jobs?”…
This is the problem. Actually, I was talking about West Bengal, not only Kolkata. But I have found every perspective of WB usually starts and finishes with Kolkata.
1.Agreed, progress has been made, but we could have done much better! From Kolkata, the fruits of progress ( the progress due to state effort) is yet to reach WB.
The recent Ration Shop agitation, I think validates this.
2. And if progress ( though for me un-kolkatan it is all talks only) and unfreedom (where government can grab my land without my permission to hand it over to Salim’s) goes together in a package deal, I would be wary of naming this development as “progress”.
Rishi, I know little of Ranjit Singh or Lacchit Barphukan, Hindus or Sikhs, Geo-politics or Social-religious remodeling. All I know is Hindustan was able to resist aggression from invaders only as India in and since 1947, contrary to your ” India cannot deal with Islam, Hinduism/Sikhism CAN.”
The anonymous is me
I second dodo.
Its always development of Kolkata against which development of West Bengal has been measured. Tell me why, even being the 3rd populous state, we dont have a second city of any credibility. Durgapur has been left in the hands of unions, Asansol in the hands of Mafia and Siliguri.. oh Siliguri.. Bengalees often forget that is also within the state. Nothing has been done to uplift these towns. There are still hundreds of ‘bekaars’ here waiting for their big ticket to Kolkata.
And about Kolkata, one Sector-V doesnot measure up to ‘real improvement’. Bangalore or Gurgaon have such Sector-Vs in every bylane of theirs. Its the mindset that the ruling party, not just Buddha, has to change, which I doubt is ever going to happen.
GB…Great Post. Maybe this is the most balanced and unbiased analysis of the situation that I have came accross.
However I would just like to add a few more points….
Buddha is taking immense political risk by continuing his drive for industrialisation. He has nothing to gain and everything to loose. The benefit of industrialisation will not be forthcoming in another 10 years. The way CPIM is loosing popularity in rural bengal the benefit may well be reaped by Mamata & Party. Inspite of that if he is persuing his effort. A very few Politician in India will do that.
We all know that Nandigram fiasco was triggered by Singur. The easiest and most politically correct way out would have been to give in to the demands of the Mamata & Co. by asking Tata to shift their factory elsewhere and virtually send the project to cold storage. No Singur would have meant no Nandigram. This way he could have retained the rural base of his party. People like us would have said that he has tried but failed due to irresponsible opposition. Everything would have been hunky-dory. Infact his predecessor did precisely that (read nothing) for Bengal and managed to cling on to power for 30 years. He chose the hard way.
Just wanted to add one more point….
I am not a leftist….
arnab,
request…please approve my comment that was made about 7-8 hrs ago. I dont see it yet.
thx.
a
@ WTF : “anonymous: great point.. you totally got me there.. i meant this as a response to .. demographic warfare that so terrifies HHBB in particular.
Jaa baba !! That ‘anonymous’ comment was mine !! In your response, you praise my comment, yet simultaneously render a smart sidekick to me 🙂 .
@ anonx : “All I know is Hindustan was able to resist aggression from invaders only as India in and since 1947.”
Please appreciate that it was a soft, effete, atrociously led ‘India’ that was partitioned in th3e first place.
Besides, all external invasions have been low level, low intensity playground games, in spite of the British leaving us with a superb and trained army and generals. Faced with something of slightly tougher mettle (Chinese aggression), India’s ‘prowess’ was exposed for all to see.
The most critical thing is that the invasion now is not from without, but from within. Balms are effective in treating external afflictions. Cancerous cells require a completely different therapy..
“I know little of Ranjit Singh or Lacchit Barphukan, Hindus or Sikhs, Geo-politics or Social-religious remodeling”
Why do you know so little about our national heroes?
“WTF : “but sweety dont worry.. india can deal with islam AND hinduism AND sikhism. and the occasional riot notwithstanding it will definitely keep them from hacking each other to death.
Your dulcet reassurances are nice, but history deals in reality. If 1,200 years of unfailing history does not convince you, nothing will. Beslan, Godhra, London, New York, Luxor can be tortuously explained away as aberrations. Bosnia, Kossovo, Albania, Kashmir, Darfur are very much mass novements. For the people, by the people, of the people.
“islam is part of india just the way the potato came from south america”
Yes, but the Giant Potato does not instruct it’s King Edward minions to overpower, overpopulate and overwhelm. A significant section of ‘I’ certainly does.
@ jay “Most of the lands in Nandigram has been illegally encroached by illegal M immigrants from Bangladesh. They will not get any compensation through legal means if any industry comes up there. And that’s the main reason why these (majority M) people are opposing any industrialization and scrutiny of the land possession issue.
Now they are working with anti-India, anti-Hindu forces. And vote bank politics is making it worse. Let media investigate this illegal immigration and land encroachment angle in Nandigram.
Brillian point, Jay. In all forms of dealings with Ms, you will find that they generate all motives from a very religious core. Or at least justify all their actions via religion.
Nandigram & Kolkata were dry runs. Testing the waters.
@ Annonx : “Khatre mein Sikhism led to Khalistan, Khatre mein Islam has led to Taliban, and now it is Khatre mein Hinduism, wait enough and you will see the consequences”.
Similar movements will not always lead to similar outcomes. It depends upon the mindset of the people they are affecting.
If Hs realise the true khatre they are in, the onsequences can only be benevolent for Hs, India & the world.
@ Rishi & Arnabda
I am off for a month on another business trip, from which I cannot send comments from. I will speak to you guys, i.e comment again 🙂 on my return later.
Joi Hind
thanks. good post, arnab.
Thanks for the excellent read. I have always wondered about the Bengali love for Communism and this post cleared many cobwebs. All I can say is that I hope Bengal realizes what is best for her and recovers soon.
@ Patrix
The recovery depends on many factors. First, the Delhiwallas are not really bothered with West Bengal and the North-east as long as these regions do not create any trouble for their survival at the centre. Why should they? Unless and until the MPs from these regions can destabilize/ participate with the government at the centre, their issues are not really priority.
Second, the MPs from West Bengal need to practice talking in Hindi (an advantage of the MPS from the hindi belt) and English (an advantage of the MPs from the south) in the Lok Sabha. Unless they can engage in constructive argumentation they will have to resort to their age-old beating-up-the-other-guy tactics.
Sadly, these WB MPs are more like local goons, not even local leaders.
An addendum: It is really amazing how Chomsky and our home-grown bearded worthies like Praful Bidwai have brought in Iraq, Iran and the US in the Nandigram debate. Hilarious stuff. Talk about force-fitting!!
Rishi Khujur:
You bring a bit of ‘Rediff-ness’ to this blog every time you post a comment, and every bit of fundamentalist tripe that you dish out lowers the debate a notch lower…in every single post, on every single topic on this blog.
Spare us. Live your life and let others live theirs.
If you don’t have anything constructive to say, please don’t.
shubs..thanks.
@Shubs : if at all, Rishi’s inputs have raised the level of debates. Earlier it was just one side bashing of “Hindu Fundamentalism” by so called super-uber-cool liberals.
I also understand why you should feel uncomfortable. It’s a typical “liberal” reaction when questioned on a convenient positions taken by the “progressives”.
You can choose to ignore Rishi’s comments if you like. Or argue him out. But don’t claim to speak on behalf of others. There are atleast some of us who feel Rishi makes compelling arguments on variety of topics.
Too bad you can’t counter.
GB
Must congratulate you for a very balanced view on Nandigram. I remember also that there was no public protest after Anandamargi killings on Bijan Setu or after the Saibari incident at Burdwan. Where were the Intelectuals then? This Nandigram issue has generated many response and I do not want add as you have said it all.
I would like to add a point which I think is vital. West Bengal has considerable fertile land which is productive but considering the population pressure, agriculture cannot provide employment for all.It can not provide enough food for a family as the land gets subdivided due to inheritence. Small scale industry is not always successful . What happened to all the mini steel plants? Economy of scale, access of raw materials, availability of land, water,power,skilled manpower and access to market are important issues that determine where an industry can be successfully located. In order to provide direct employment and generate more employment through related service industries,The State needs more industrialisation. Buddhadeb Bhattacharya is trying to do that but if no land can be taken then how do you go for development work? I have been involved in designing large industrial projects in various parts of India and other countries.Everywhere both the Govt. and the public were highly supportive of the new industries. I have also seen the the effect of development on the surrounding population. But it is only in WB that I have faced considerable apathy and sometime opposition from the petty officials and the local population.
I remember when the govt and the party was opposing introduction of computers in West Bengal as they were sure that many people would lose their jobs. Bangalore gained what Calcutta lost. Now that computers are everywhere, so many people are now self employed providing related services. Industrialisation is a similar issue. The ham handed land acquisition drive is deplorable but the issue has to be tackled. Otherwise the boys and girls will have to migrate where the jobs are.
(Though my daughter Swati is in Barrackpore,but son Sayon is permanently in Delhi. I and my wife Debjani were based in Calcutta but had to travel continuously for new projects. Only a few of our projects are in West Bengal.)
Dipak Majumdar.
@kaunteya: “Too bad you can’t counter.”
Some things are just not worth the effort.
One-track blowhards like Hujur/Khujur will continue spewing venom in the garb of pseudo-intellectual gibberish whatever be the topic of discussion.
I did not mention the ‘Rediff-isation’ of this blogspace just to spice up my comment. That is the direction it is headed, unfortunately.
@ WTF
regarding your comment on Kashmir, removing article 370 would be a good beginning. Wont u agree?
Check out this exhibition on Kashmir (if you have not done it already as I had given this link before)
http://www.factusa.org/totalexhibit/exhibition.asp
@ Shubs
Do read Arnab’s fantastic movie reviews and cricket stuff …you will find many reasons to feel relieved of your worries.
@Hujur/Khujur/associated avatars:
When you can spare some time from plugging your website and proclaiming your moral and intellectual superiority, maybe you’ll notice that my comments were directed at your hijacking of all topics on this blog, and not at Arnab’s writing.
But then maybe you think this is YOUR blog…
@ Shubs
Friend.. I get your point. That is the reason why I suggested you to feel relieved by reading the funnier movie and cricket writings. You will not find “blowhard” material in their comment sections.
@ Shubs
I dont own any website…
@ rishi:
thanks for the website.
how does that in any way counter Kashmir’s special status in the Constitution of India?
i am the last person to suggest that a state should enjoy special status in the Constitution just because of its religious composition. this is secular hypocrisy in the highest terms. On the other hand India is not a homogeneous federal entity like you suggest.
Similar protections for unique status exist in tribal areas of India including those in Himachal Pradesh, Arunachal Pradesh and Nagaland. What about Sikkim? Should we also ignore the Autonomous Hill Councils?
Kashmir is a massive mess with a huge amount of history to it.
are you aware of the difficulties Vallabh Bhai faced getting princely states to accede to india?
are you aware of how India reacted when a hindu majority princely state in rajput acceded to pakistan, the ruler thinking he would get a better deal from jinnah?
by speaking in your normal absolutist terms you usually miss out on the finer points as usual. but no wait.. it’s us people who look at geo politics and not the larger socio-religious conspiracy that are wrong.
you didnt answer my point about the very presence of muslims historically being in majority from 1947 in many areas of india. additionally, that is not just true for kashmir but large swathes of mainland india especially in kerala, up, bihar, west bengal and others.
so kashmir or no kashmir, islam is and will stay an integral part of indian culture.
i respect your views when it comes to the special treatment of muslims. however, sometimes you betray an intention more sinister that just equal treatment (the flirty innuendo being a hallmark of the RSS). that really disgusts me.
@ hhbb:
while i find it hard to believe that you left a comment stretching to a massive 3 lines, i believe i answered your query. (i of course should not mock anyone’s verbosity)
have a nice trip. sleep tight. dont let the muslims bite.
HHBB – “”Please appreciate that it was a soft, effete, atrociously led ‘India’ that was partitioned in th3e first place.”
Appreciated, as much appreciated is the fact that it was soft, effete, NDA government that was blackmailed to release militants from Indian jails, it was atrociously led NDA government that could do nothing about the militant attack on parliament apart from wasting crores of tax payers money by making army stand at border on high alert and could only give lip service to “teaching them a lesson”. Also appreciated is the fact that India under a leader who was not allowed into some temples as she was believed to be a Muslim, broke up Pakistan into two inspite of pressures from USA. Being Hindu does not mean anything, you require a spine to lead a country.
HHBB – “Besides, all external invasions have been low level, low intensity playground games, in spite of the British leaving us with a superb and trained army and generals”
Ummm, I am not sure I got that. Are we talking of pre British India? I definately was referring to that.
HHBB – “Why do you know so little about our national heroes?”
Well I could not differentiate between the true history, the British history, the communist history, the congress history, the RSS history. My personal belief is same as GBs “Look at both sides of the story, use common sense and come to a conclusion.”, however in this case there are more than “both” side of story so I decided to drop it altogather, and live life today.
@Rishi please convey the comments over phone, now that GB has confirmed that aap dono (HHBB and Rishi) hain juda juda. My computer had to bonk off at this point so this delay in responding. I am investigating the hands of Hindutvavadi hands into this(-:
@Rishi:
“A friend of mine (Shan and other critics can make fun of this name dropping)…”
Aww, don’t get defensive on us now. Not your style. We are in admiring awe you for your amazing access to the entire Hindu fundamentalist spectrum of Indian politics. Please give the names.
Seriously.
Hello Annonx,
A few points.
1. Please appreciate the fact that it was a soft effete NDA Government that threw the Pakistani Army out of Kargil.
2. Please appreciate the fact that it was soft spoken barely 5 feet tall dhoti clad vegetarian Hindu who stopped Pakistan’s superior army from winning in 1965.
3. Please appreciate the fact that it was a “Secular”, “Gandhian” leader of international stature who led us to defeat in 1962 and also damaged the credibility of the armed forces.
4. Please appreciate the fact that it was the very leader who you claim broke pakistan in to two who almost lost India the war in 1971 by Ordering Sam Bahadur to attack at the peak of the monsoon season.
5. Please appreciate the fact that it was the effete NDA govt which flummoxed the US and carried out Nuclear Tests.
Please dont obfuscate the issue under discussion by making specious claims. These are policy decisons that are taken according to political/Military considerations. All HHBB is trying to say is that the leadership took a sub optimal decision by agreeing to the partition just like the NDA govt did by releasing Militants in Kandahar.
Thanks.
Sunil
Sunil-All I am trying to understand is how the Hindu leaders are better or then the “other” leaders.
Hello Annonx,
The origin of your comment is Rishi’s assertion that India cannot deal with Islam but Hinduism and Sikhism can. I felt that the topic was being obfuscated since you brought in the religion of the leadership in question, which is not being discussed. Infact the leaders cited by HHBB and Rishi as weak and effete are Hindu/Sikh, so the question of Hindu leaders being better than others does not arise.
Thanks.
Sunil.
Okay. So the Hinduism and Sikhism is not what is practised by the Hindu or Sikh. I am educated!
Hello Annonx,
I am confused. Let me retrace our steps. Please bear with me:
You said – “Sunil-All I am trying to understand is how the Hindu leaders are better or then the “other” leaders.”
I said –
“I felt that the topic was being obfuscated since you brought in the religion of the leadership in question, which is not being discussed. Infact the leaders cited by HHBB and Rishi as weak and effete are Hindu/Sikh, so the question of Hindu leaders being better than others does not arise.”
All that is being said that Hinduism and Sikhism as a religion can counter Islam as a religion. The question of whose leadership is better is not being raised.
How have I educated you?
Thanks
Sunil.
@ Shan
Seriously, the names I can give, I give. The names I cannot give….they are just my “friend”. I can only put them as anecdotal references. Ofcourse you have the right not to believe what I say… which is fine too.
Anonx:
Man… you are funny.
Dear Greatbong…
What you have written is awsome….the pun the pun info…everyhting…….Always your fan
@ hindu leaders:
i think the subtler point is whether a hindutva government is stronger than one with so-called secular credentials. again.. there is no real difference. the onus it may be argued is on hindutva as it is supposed to be harder on terrorism but that claim flew away on board the IC to Kandahar.
Indira Gandhi FYI took a bigger risk by conducting india’s first nuclear tests. she was also a raving psycho.
@ team sikhism and hinduism vs. islam:
just been reading about the sikh extremist movement. the main enemy they say in today’s world .. is.. the hindus not muslims! (militants were notorious for stopping buses, separating the hindus and shooting them, a massive influx of hindu refugees to haryana during terrorism (nobody ever talks about this unlike the Pandits))
khalistan was supposed to be a state with a 100% sikh population..with the acceptable cost of mass ethnic cleansing of hindus. the claim for which was just refreshed a few months ago with a bomb blast.
so with friends like this.. who needs muslims!
“All that is being said that Hinduism and Sikhism as a religion can counter Islam as a religion”
one would thinking that religions fighting religions would have ended in the medieval ages. but im sure the battles will make good reality tv. dont forget to sell the media rights!
@ WTF
If you had cared to notice, i prefer to put those responsible for Kahndahar and Rubaiyya saeed kidnapping in the same basket (doesnt matter if its bjp or Jandata dal).
Your understanding of the Khalistan movement is very less. Understand “Operation Topac” first.
Arnab,
I am a regular visitor of your blogsite, but this is my first post.
Seems you took this Nandigram incident very seriously. For the time being, just forget morality, no one’s has good morale in politics. Look into the other side, Politics is just amazing, it is an awesome amusement, if you dive into it.
That too is this so-called Nandigram-incident. Watch out my observations:
1. Subhas-Buddha who were opposing each other since ages, how come they started talking the same?
2. Mrinal Sen, the ex-RS member nominated by CPM, how come joined the procession of the opposing Buddhijivi and soon after went to meet Buddha at Nandan?
3. Why these so-called Buddhi-jivis were quiet after 14 march?Apart from Medha-Suman-Shaonli Mitra-Shankha Ghosh – Joy Goswami, no one came out to talk openly against CPM. But now, what dragged them to become anti-CPM? Everone’s DARD burst out at the same time? Or….
people were losing faith on these so called intellectuals? These intelelctuals still kept their faith alive on Buddha. But all on a sudden when the cops arrested them, byas, out came their abhimaan. Btw, this is not KRODH, this is KHOBH or ABHIMAAN…
4. Surprisingly enough another intellectual, Ms. Madhavi Mukherjee, who once fought against Buddha with a Trinamul ticket, was not to loud even after this, rather in her interview she was little worried about CPM’s popularity after the incident.
5. Educated, intellectual Buddha, who never spoke out “THEM” and “US” before how come became pathetic like George W. Bush?
6. Zee tv spends billion dollar for their cricket league, star tv have been spending millions of dollars cricket telecast, but can’t they buy a helicopter? Can’t they show people the “true image from the sky”? “Mobs were blocking traffic, we couldn’t reach the spot” — is this a reasonable allibi for today’s media?
7. After this incident, there shall be no one in next 5 years to get provoked by Mamata Banerjee. Simple truth. By the time another agitation like this would occur, CPM would have won two more assembly elections !
8. Okay, what happened after the back-to-back Nandigram and Rizuanur case? Buddha’s fair image is gone, Prasun Mukherjee is gone from Lalbazar, Subhash-Dalmiyan group has got an edge in CAB, Mamata Banerjee is rejected openly by the intellectuals, any opposing agitation against CPM is uprooted, so-called non-socialst intellectuals lost their faith on Buddha, Kolkata middle class society who favored Buddha, turned their back to Buddha…
Strange enough Buddha said the Jibanananda words (Jara jato andho, tara tato besh chokhe dekhe aaj) to Jibanananda relative Aparna Sen!
9. Now the most important math…. out of 294 assemble seats 125-130 seats are confirmed safe haven for CPM. Those been confirmed for past 30 years and shall remain for another 50 years. To win a majority, 148 seats are required to be won. So out of the rest 165 seats, CPM has to struggle and win 15-20 seats. Whereas, INC-TMC-BJP-SUCI-PDSF-blah-blah-blah-RSP-CPI-FB-whatever allaince have to struggle to win 148 seats. Compare 20 to 148 keeping in mind the organizational strength. Simple math, but who invented it?
10. Was there anyone from Alimuddin street who called upon Buddha and said not to poke his nose into party-line, not to apologize against the party line like after 14 march, rather support it! Did someone enforce Buddha to say, “paid back in their own coin”, otherwise CPM party will condemn Rizuanur case and State goverment and especially the home (Police) ministry? And the result would be resignation by the Home (Police) Minister?. Asim and/or Subhas is ready to step in as the next CM?
My guess, there is Pitamaho Vishma behind all these!! Living his last life at Indira bhawan, he is master-minding the whole game? This Nonagenerian is inviting Mamata Banerjee (been said once, “she’s a liar, she’s insane”) today, calling upon Governor Gandhi, even arch rival SSR (Manu-da) is saying that only Jyoti can solve this (“Jyoti-i ek matro paare”)
This Nonagenerian Vishma, who in his regime once said about Bantala rape incident, things happen like this quite often (“e rakom to katoi hoy”), people are rquesting him to offer a noble solution!! Amazing, isn’t it? This veteran had two agenda in his life: To rule in Delhi and to secure the Writer’s building for the duration of his lifetime. The first didn’t take place due to “Himalayan Blunder” (probably the only good thing Karat-Iyechuri has done to the country) and latter is has been assured for quite some years now.
But for the past few years, suddenly Buddha gained popularity. Public memory is short, true, but people started demanding, Buddha is dynamic, pro-industrialist, lot better than Jyoti-Babu!!
After this Nandigram incident, check out where Buddha is today and where he is now …. mission accomplished!!!
This is Comrade Jyoti Basu!!! Laal laal laal, laal selam !!
Interesting. Now Sikhism and Khalistan are thrown into the thick, boiling broth.
On a certain forum I am observing a theory, quite superficial IMO and having pretensions of Game Theory (and a slew of other generalized Conflict Scenarios), about “Hawks and Doves” in Hinduism as a response to Islamic invasion. This theory has also an annexe. vis-a-vis Muslims, who have their own Hawks and Doves but the latter being….. mere fronts. The innuendo on “what should be done” is unmistakable. The hilarious aspect of all this is the dovetailing in of Sikhism, Vijayanagar(!) etc (thrown in the Sanghwaffen 😀 too of course) as the correct SOCIETAL response! And I thought only the inbred Fundoos of Pakistan who claimed “Sikhs are the sword arm of the cowardly Hindu Bania!”
I guess this faux sociology-historiography is a result of tough questions on how much Islamic the Turk invasions and 800 yr old rule were…. and why there was no HINDU Reconquista. While the Ghaznavi and Ghauri campaigns were true Holocausts what followed after the Khalji Revolution was pretty much the run-up the “National Quiltwork” Indira Gandhi always spoke about. The Extreme Right wants a Ruling Social Group and all that jazz on the other hand….. and they want to take it in the name of security! Anyway, the first knee-jerk responses by the SSanghis in trying to portray Marathas and Vijayanagar as Reconquistas were demolished….. I guess the Hindu Fundoos want to scrap up a better, complicated and confusing edifice this time. (If you think THIS is rich, take a look at the brave new theories of Mauryas of 1500 B.C.)
BTW, all this happened in 3 or 4 forums I used to participate/visit….. never expected this in GB’s wicked and merry blog. BTW, tell us HHBB, Hujur etc. , do you have some Coven guiding you guys or are these (hopefully) just personal endeavors? I asked ‘coz I know of a certain organization seeking (at least that’s what the charter says) to do this kind of work. I nearly signed up ‘coz I wanted to help in torpedoing the Commie stranglehold on Historiography, but then I learned that the objectives were parochial and political… and the path to it even more crooked.
Just my 2 cents.
GB – I hereby add Buddha to the pantheon of your Gods who never do any wrong. Mithun, Sourav and now Buddha.
@ Wanderer
First of all, you ought to read Al Biruni, Utubi and Amir Khusrau (over a few centuries) to realize how Islamic the Turkik invasions were. Its good to hear it directly from the horses mouth.
Wanderer wrote:
“While the Ghaznavi and Ghauri campaigns were true Holocausts what followed after the Khalji Revolution was pretty much the run-up the “National Quiltwork” Indira Gandhi always spoke about”.
Rishi’s response:
Ghaznavi and Ghauri’s campaign were holocausts in the true sense. We begin with a agreement.
“Khilji revolution” were no cakewalks either. From a strategic point of view, they were just a transition of the initial “offensive phase” to a “consolidation phase”.
As for the Hindu Reconquista and Vijaynagara.
Here is a hint, Harihara Raya and Bukka Raya, the original founders of the Vijaynagara empire were forcibly converted to Islam by Mohammad bin Tughlak.
The Hindu sage Vidyaranya, worked on them and helped them return back to Hinduism and then ..surprise surprise they…go on the establish the Vijaynagara empire. Now its a different story that Vijayanagara met a painful and devastating end itn the handds of followers of Islam.
I am sure that came into your discussion and you went on to prove that it was all a secular game ping pong.
Wanderer wrote:
BTW, tell us HHBB, Hujur etc. , do you have some Coven guiding you guys or are these (hopefully) just personal endeavors?
Rishi’s response:
Make your own guesses my friend. But stay logical.
>> Re Khujur
@ Al-Beruni etc…
Maybe you should see what these very sources wrote about how these Sultans treated enemies of their own faith. Gibbeting enemies all the way from Nadiya to Jaunpur; flaying alive nephews,; blinding and later spearing brothers; starving own sons etc. I never hear this point while the self-proclaimed heroes of Hinduism b1tch about how bad Muslims were to Hindus.
@ Offensive Phase to Consolidation…
Wow…. Kya theory boss!
The Turkish Chaglatai with all their proto-eugenics was swept away by 1290 AD. The group that set the Islamic ball rolling was outta the picture by the time Balban croaked. OTOH The Khiljis en masse emigrated to India after their lands were razed by the Mongols…. they and those sultans who followed were (and explicitly declared themselves) as Indian as say, the Kushanas. This Hindustani feeling was broken by “I want Kabul’s watermelons so much” Babar… but not the rest. AK may have been a blood thirsty beast but he explicitly asked the Ulema to stay out of governance. The Ulema never wielded such power and Muslim groups hogged such postings till Jahangir’s “conversion” and Aurangazeb.
@ Vijayanagar
The story of Harihara and Bukka’s re-conversion is true but it would be a stretch of imagination to portray them as ‘champions” of Hinduism. The Gajapatis of Orissa were mortal enemies who often sided with Shia Golconda against Vijayanagar….. in fact Shia Bijapur came to rescue the rump Vijaynagar when Golconda and Orissa invaded. The only explicitly “Hindu” thing they did was the campaign against the near demonic Madurai Sultanate. It is the ONLY campaign which has been described by Vijayanagar sources (including the crown prince’s wife) as a victory against MUSLIMS. All the 200 yrs of war with the Bahmanis or the breakaway states featured Vijayanagar allied with one Muslim State against another. “Oceania is always at war with Eastasia”, eh? In fact Rama Raya had adopted the young Adil Shah as his own son in a ceremony in Vijayanagar…. it was an uncharacteristically violent and blashphemous campaign against Ahmednagar by Rama Raya (and petty talk against the Bijapur Sultan) that turned Adil Shah against Vijaynagar. Even then he tried to save the old Bismarck’s life in vain. And guess why Tirumala scooted to Penukonda after Talikota and not try to defend his city? The Maratha Cavalry under Rao Ghorpade(?), allied to the Muslims, was closing in fast.
PS: For one hundred years it was two legions of Muslim cavalry that formed Vijayanagar’s shock force….. and it was their defection after the Rama Raya blashphemy that sealed Vijayanagar’s fate at Talikota.
>> Re Khujur
@Make your own guesses my friend. But stay logical.
Logic?!!! You must be joking! And after all the BS and half truths and agitprop and infra-digs and innuendo and propagandu(sic) the loony left and the knicker-waalahs spew here?
Can I get onion rings and soda with “logic”, please?
Wanderer wrote:
The group that set the Islamic ball rolling was outta the picture by the time Balban croaked. OTOH The Khiljis en masse emigrated to India after their lands were razed by the Mongols…they and those sultans who followed were (and explicitly declared themselves) as Indian
Rishi’s response:
1. Mongols were not Muslims (at that time) and followers of Islam during the Khilji dynasty feared the Mongols.
2. Declaring oneself as “indian” doesnt take the Islamist away from anyone. In fact Balban and his successors were first generation converts to Islam and he in his effort to “CONSOLIDATE” islamic rule, OFFERED HINDUS THE STATUS OF DHIMMIS (UPGRADE FOR KAFIRHOOD)
Throughout the period of the Sultanate of Delhi, Islam was the religion of the State. It was considered to be the duty of the Sultan and his government to defend and uphold the principles of this religion and to propagate them among the masses…even the most enlightened among them [the Sultans], like Muhammad bin Tughlaq, upheld the principles of their faith and refused permission to repair Hindu (or Buddhist) temples…Thus even during the reign of the so-called liberal-minded Sultans, the Hindus had no permission to build new temples or to repair old ones.
The dhimmis were not to celebrate their religious rites openly…and never to do any propaganda on behalf of their religion. A number of disabilities were imposed upon them in matters of State employment and enjoyment of civic rights…It was a practice with the Sultans to destroy the Hindu temples and images therein. Firoz Tghlaq and Sikander Lodi prohibited Hindus from bathing at the ghats [river bank steps for ritual bathers] in the sacred rivers, and encouraged them in every possible way to embrace the Muslim religion. The converts were exempted from the jizya and given posts in the State service and even granted rewards in cash, or by grant of land. In short, there was not only no real freedom for the Hindus to follow their religion, but the state followed a policy of intolerance and persecution. The contemporary Muslim chronicles abound in detailed descriptions of desecration of images and destruction of temples and of the conversion of hundreds and thousands of the Hindus. [Hindu] religious buildings and places bear witness to the iconoclastic zeal of the Sultans and their followers. One has only to visit Ajmer, Mathura, Ayodhya, Banaras and other holy cities to see the half broken temples and images of those times with their heads, faces, hands and feet defaced and demolished…
The Vijayanagara response to follow.
That smoke you smell? It’s Hujur burning up the keyboards with his furious Googling…
Khujur, Khujur, Khujur……
I notice the leaps of logic and the tangential drive, but then…… 🙂
1. The Victors were Muslim, who had their own notions of governance and society and general life.
2. They were overwhelmingly Turco-Persians, who had their own concept of land rights and pecking orders.
What do you expect them to set up once they defeated the ruling kingdoms? Jennifer Government? Their solid concepts and beliefs and arms had triumphed over Hindus, right? Why should they let go of those belief systems that had served them well so far? It ain’t right, but there it is! It was the fr1ggin medieval ages, for God’s sake! You just has Palas and Pratiharas and Rashtrakutas razing Northern India just a few years ago! Now,is Shariat prominence it any different from what the Sanghwaffen are implying with “Minorities must accept Hinduism as the superior blah blah” in the 21st century?
Moreover, why did these same invaders (religion-wise/ethnicity-wise) fail miserably when they took over China in 13th-16th cent. an 18th cent-20th cent.? Or, European Russia? Or Spain? Or Hungary-Balkans? Or Greece? Says a lot of how screwed up and weakened Hindus and our systems were at that time, eh? Shouldn’t we look into our own faults rather than gloss over them and ascribe all ills to yeevil furriners?
FYI, Firuz Mian had sold out to the Turco-Persian syndicate and the Ulema the moment he ascended…. going against nearly a century of reforms. Still, that didn’t stop him from firing the overwhelmingly Hindu admin/revenue system, did it? Sikander Lodi….. you must check out how he reacted to MUSLIM NOBLESretainers and a section of the Ulema after the Barbak Shah and Fateh Khan episodes! He went against Hindu Rais and his own Hindu officials AFTER he duked it out with his own. This dude was a throwback to Blaban… expect that it was Pathan uber Alles this time.
@ Wanderer
Well…
if for you Jazia (islamic tax on kafirs) and a ban on even repairing Hindu/Jain places of worship, is just secular administrative high-handedness, then there is nothing I can say to prove my point.
Continue with your self denial.
Let me ask you a question.
The taliban were awoved Islamists but they killed many many Muslims too.
After 1000 years will you try to prove to me that since the Taliban killed many Muslims too, they were not Islamists as such?
the same invaders failed miserably in Spain/France, Balkans/Russia.
Reason… combination of unified Christian response.
BTW, I like the way you try to sound uber cool while you write.
PS: Eagerly waiting for “Vijayanagar Response”.
BTW, here’s something to chew on. It wasn’t the Muslims who destroyed Vijayangar and the end didn’t happen at Rakshasi-Tangadi. It was the Naiks themselves (heard of Ritual Soverginity and Nayankara System with Amarams and all that) who betrayed the rump state (not exactly rump, but it was not the old Vijayanagar of course) and let the Bahmani states mop what was left.
@ Wanderer
R
I will quote Ibn Batuta
@ Wanderer
Regarding Vijayanagara
sorry about the previous misfire but I will quote Ibn Batuta, a Arabic Islamic scholar, so taht you dont think that I am belching out biased Hindutva interpreation. The expansive stuff that you gave me about Vijaya nagara can heeby be compared.
“the Raya sent his guest safely away to a neighbouring chief, probably the Hoysala Ballala, king of Dvarasamudra in Maisur, then residing at Tanur. He caused a huge fire to be lit on which his wives and the wives of his nobles, ministers, and principal men immolated themselves, and this done he sallied forth with his followers to meet the invaders, and was slain. The town was taken, “and eleven sons of the Rai were made prisoners and carried to the Sultan, who made them all Mussalmans.” After the fall of the place the Sultan “treated the newly Mussalman king’s sons with great honour”.
Ahhh….. the Chewbacca defense! I wondered when you were getting to it. Anyway….
@ UNIFIED CHRISTIAN response:
Bingo! What the Knickers have wet-dreams about. UNIFIED response….. the banner would be the triangular saffron flag, I guess?
You totally missed the point anyway. Think why there is near-zero trace of the foreign system despite centuries of total foreign rule in Balkans, Hungary, China? Think WHY there was a RECONQUISTA (yeah right!) only in Spain. Think why the Manchus and the Mongol-Turks Sinicised but Indianised only to a lesser degree. Think why there was no Hindu Jihad, if it was all “spitting into dhimmi mouths” and all that. Or what…. we were all cowed down dove/pussies as the new spin masters try to put it now? Heck, why don’t they realise that only for small periods was Muslim rule absolute…. 70% of the “Muslim” Age was practically a Hindu Rajput/Nayak show.
If you think the European/Chinese responses were more errrr… complete because of RELIGION/Religious Zeal, I’ve got a few railway stations to sell you. PS: If you had at least played Age of Empires:El Cid, you might have noticed the fallacy of your religion contention. Ever heard what the Swedes and the Ottomans did together in the 17th-18th cent? Or the Greek Uprising of 1821 where the Armenians and Bulgars bankrolled the Ottomans? How about Napolean and his curious African campaign then?
It’s precisely this one-track mind of the fundies, the woeful ignorance of history, the conditioning, the greed arising from their inability to stomach Muslims share spoils of Indian growth/land, the inability (or the refusal) to see the layers within layers and subtleties that’s leading this country to sh1t. Maybe they are taking lessons from the Paki Mullahs and Landed Classes next door. They did financially/socially well for themselves by getting the “unwanted influences” out of their Ilakas, didn’t they?
Re Ibn Batuta
Hello…. Vijaynagar had barely established itself by the time Ibn Batuta was around. Interesting that you choose a travelogue by a charlatan-envoy-corrupt Qazi wearing Allah on his sleeve (rather than a Historian). Anyway, nobody is denying the young Kaktiya princes (nobles?) were converted and then they reconverted after their escape…. but how does it make them champions of HINDUISM. They prolly didn’t think of themselves that way….. hey, kings from Devaraya I kept a Quran in a raised pedestal in front of their thrones. And they had large numbers of Muslims (Siddis, Arabs and Desis) in their own garrisons.
I nevertheless would like to see how you gonna explain the nunances of Vijayangar Empire’s polity/society/poilices with the Rehla. Hey, that book was written even before the brothers ventured out of the hills! Anyway, don’t let facts disturb your roll. 😀
PS: Try Minhaus Siraj or Rafiuddin Shirazi for more authoritative History. These were historians….. not bards/sycophants/travelling minstrels.
Wanderer wrote:
And they (Vijayanagara rulers) had large numbers of Muslims (Siddis, Arabs and Desis) in their own garrisons.
Rishi’s response:
And they all shifted allegiance (as you yourself admit) to the combined Islamic armies of the 5 allied Muslim invader of Vijayanagara during the battle of Talikota.
Need I say more to prove my point.
@ Wanderers
Like most Hindu rulers, the Vijayanagara rulers were way more tolerant and open about involving people of all religious backgrounds (without trying hard to convert them to Hinduism) in their administration. They had very good relations with the Portugese and did attempt find friends amongst the Muslims.
What happened to Harihar Raya and Bukka raya (forced conversion to Islam and then return to Dharma and establishment of Vijayanagara), the glamour of Vijayanagara and its attempts to find friendship with the Islamic rulers and their betrayal during the battle of Talikot speaks a lot of the think that I dont want to see Hindu society go through any further.
Do you get it?
Sighhh…. is this glib retort all the response you could muster? 🙂
They served Vijayanagar for 4 generations…. and why don’t you tell us why they mutinied at that point? BTW, was the defection of the shock troops the cause of the defeat at Talikota? (PS: I have heard fantastic numbers (140000) of Muslim traitors thrown about by the Knickers!)? Ever heard of Grapeshot…. with Copper coins? Or about the worrisome habit of Indian troops to scoot if they think their chieftain’s down?
On that note why don’t you google up and see who were one of the first detachments to sack Vijayangar?
PS:The entire 9 Sikh Rgtt mutinied in 1984 after another blasphemy (forget Khalistani terrorism). Does that make them as “untrustworthy” as yeevil Muzzies? That was your point, right?
@Khujur: “Do you get it?”
Yes, yes, we ALL get it. Let’s just slaughter all the Muslims and get it over with. If that’s what it takes to shut you up…
>> Do you get it?
Oh yes, I perfectly do. Delenda Carthage and all that, eh? Hidden by that sheen of objectivity and fairness, it is plain old hate, intolerance, Schadenfreude and naked power-grabbing.
Anyway, quite a leap of faith saying that “Vijayanagar seeking friendship with all and sundry”. They wooed the Portuguese who had control of the Horse trade…. many a Vijayanagar ruler played Machiavelli with the Bahmanis. (I guess you didn’t get the “Oceania-Eastasia” drift, from Orwell’s 1984). It was all business… down to the raids on Mysore-Malabar Hindu kingdoms. Worked for a time till old Rama Raya tried to do a Uber Bismarck but failed and paid the price. If you ask me, they had it coming trying to pull off a stunt like the Ahmednagar Campaign….. and after dissing of the Portuguese. It was hubris and overconfidence that got them in the end…. if not at Talikota, then elsewhere. Guess why the Naiks ditched the last Aravidus?
>>The taliban were awoved Islamists but they killed many many Muslims too. After 1000 years will you try to prove to me that since the Taliban killed many Muslims too, they were not Islamists as such?
Au Contraire Khujurdoodles,
I will say they were true fundies onlee. The nature of their campaign was consistently based on THEIR OWN extreme notions of Islam. This notion varies with the notion of other groups… say the Druze or the Shias. Lets go to the Talian;
They killed many many godless Afghan commies like Najibullah. Totally Muslim onlee!
They killed many many Muslims of the Red Army. True Muslim onlee! Red != Islam. QED.
They killed many many Shias. Totaly True Muslim, nothing more important than killing apostates.
They killed many many Tajiks and Uzbegs. Very very Muslim. Reason is simple: Taliban = True Muslim. They need total control to run the opium trade for the greater glory of Taliban = True Muslims, anybody who doesn’t meekly accept that is fair game.
And if you ask me if the Pasdaran and the Basij were Islamists even though they killed many a fair Momin, I would say yes! Why? Same shit, different day.
They killed many Commie Iranians. True Muslim onlee! Red != Islam. QED.
They killed many Sunnis. Totally true Muslim; nothing more important than killing apostates.
………
………
———-
There is a hell lot of difference between this and purely Imperial campaigns, reprisal actions, crushing rebellions, fratricide etc we saw in that Sultanate-Mughal period. In fact after the Ummayid Fall in 750 AD (and that Grand Finale at Talas River) the fountain of Give-no-quarter violent Islamism (the one we see today) re-started only with Syed Qutub. Not with the pitiful Mahdi, not Aurangazeb, Not Sirhindi and surely not Barelvi. Heck, not even with Ibn Wahab! The fundamental mistake you guys make is conflating the Islamism hues and ret-con your current notions to what happened in the past.
I mean, how many true Jihads were there in India actually, after Ghaznavide invasions (Ghauri had explicit political goals and was more cynical than Ghaznavi)? That is, as against political/imperial campaigns?
GB,
Very balanced and insightful article. By far the best I have read on the controversy.
Since the discussion has again taken a familiar turn, may I be excused if I post a link to a blogpost I felt was pretty interesting, though not directly relevant to the original post by GB.
http://desicritics.org/2007/11/28/023635.php
Hey,
I just got back to my PC after a two-week long trip and grassroots work in the villages of India. More about that later.
I found the discussion on Vijayanagar very interesting and educational. I want to lay out the background about the tumultous times which saw the birth of the Vijayanagar (Vijayanagara) kingdom, its tenacity and resilience against Islam and its wanton destruction.
Here is an excerpt from the first chapter of the Robert Sewell book, quoting Portuguese and Persian envoys.
Excerpt:
A Forgotten Empire: Vijayanagar
CHAPTER 1
Introduction
In the year 1336 C.E., during the reign of Edward III. of England, there occurred in India an event which almost instantaneously changed the political condition of the entire south. With that date the volume of ancient history in that tract closes and the modern begins. It is the epoch of transition from the Old to the New.
This event was the foundation of the city and kingdom of Vijayanagar. Prior to C.E. 1336 all Southern India had lain under the domination of the ancient Hindu kingdoms, — kingdoms so old that their origin has never been traced, but which are mentioned in Buddhist edicts rock-cut sixteen centuries earlier; the Pandiyans at Madura, the Cholas at Tanjore, and others. When Vijayanagar sprang into existence the past was done with for ever, and the monarchs of the new state became lords or overlords of the territories lying between the Dakhan and Ceylon.
There was no miracle in this. It was the natural result of the persistent efforts made by the Muhammadans to conquer all India. When these dreaded invaders reached the Krishna River the Hindus to their south, stricken with terror, combined, and gathered in haste to the new standard which alone seemed to offer some hope of protection. The decayed old states crumbled away into nothingness, and the fighting kings of Vijayanagar became the saviours of the south for two and a half centuries.
And yet in the present day the very existence of this kingdom is hardly remembered in India; while its once magnificent capital, planted on the extreme northern border of its dominions and bearing the proud title of the “City of Victory,” has entirely disappeared save for a few scattered ruins of buildings that were once temples or palaces, and for the long lines of massive walls that constituted its defences. Even the name has died out of men’s minds and memories, and the remains that mark its site are known only as the ruins lying near the little village of Hampi.
Its rulers, however, in their day swayed the destinies of an empire far larger than Austria, and the city is declared by a succession of European visitors in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries to have been marvellous for size and prosperity — a city with which for richness and magnificence no known western capital could compare. Its importance is shown by the fact that almost all the struggles of the Portuguese on the western coast were carried on for the purpose of securing its maritime trade; and that when the empire fell in 1565, the prosperity of Portuguese Goa fell with it never to rise again.
Our very scanty knowledge of the events that succeeded one another in the large area dominated by the kings of Vijayanagar has been hitherto derived partly from the scattered remarks of European travelers and the desultory references in their writings to the politics of the inhabitants of India; partly from the summaries compiled by careful mediaeval historians such as Barros, Couto, and Correa, who, though to a certain degree interested in the general condition of the country, yet confined themselves mostly to recording the deeds of the European colonisers for the enlightenment of their European readers; partly from the chronicles of a few Muhammadan writers of the period, who often wrote in fear of the displeasure of their own lords; and partly from Hindu inscriptions recording grants of lands to temples and religious institutions, which documents, when viewed as state papers, seldom yield us more than a few names and dates.
The two chronicles, however, translated and printed at the end of this volume, will be seen to throw a flood of light upon the condition of the city of Vijayanagar early in the sixteenth century, and upon the history of its successive dynasties; and for the rest I have attempted, as an introduction to these chronicles, to collect all available materials from the different authorities alluded to and to weld them into a consecutive whole, so as to form a foundation upon which may hereafter be constructed a regular history of the Vijayanagar empire. The result will perhaps seem disjointed, crude, and uninteresting; but let it be remembered that it is only a first attempt. I have little doubt that before very long the whole history of Southern India will be compiled by some writer gifted with the power of “making the dry bones live;” but meanwhile the bones themselves must be collected and pieced together, and my duty has been to try and construct at least the main portions of the skeleton.
Before proceeding to details we must shortly glance at the political condition of India in the first half of the fourteenth century, remembering that up to that time the Peninsula had been held by a number of distinct Hindu kingdoms, those of the Pandiyans at Madura and of the Cholas at Tanjore being the most important.
The year 1001 C.E. saw the first inroad into India of the Muhammadans from over the north-west border, under their great leader Mahmud of Ghazni. He invaded first the plains of the Panjab, then Multan, and afterwards other places. Year after year he pressed forward and again retired. In 1021 he was at Kalinga; in 1023 in Kathiawar; but in no case did he make good his foothold on the country. His expeditions were raids and nothing more. Other invasions, however, followed in quick succession, and after the lapse of two centuries the Muhammadans were firmly and permanently established at Delhi.
War followed war, and from that period Northern India knew no rest. At the end of the thirteenth century the Muhammadans began to press southwards into the Dakhan. In 1293 Ala-ud-din Khilji, nephew of the king of Delhi, captured Devagiri. Four years later Gujarat was attacked. In 1303 the reduction of Warangal was attempted. In 1306 there was a fresh expedition to Devagiri. In 1309 Malik Kafur, the celebrated general, with an immense force swept into the Dakhan and captured Warangal. The old capital of the Hoysala Ballalas at Dvarasamudra was taken in 1310, and Malik Kafur went to the Malabar coast where he erected a mosque, and afterwards returned to his master with enormous booty.[6] Fresh fighting took place in 1312. Six years later Mubarak of Delhi marched to Devagiri and inhumanly flayed alive its unfortunate prince, Haripala Deva, setting up his head at the gate of his own city. In 1323 Warangal fell.
Thus the period at which our history opens, about the year 1330, found the whole of Northern India down to the Vindhya mountains firmly under Moslem rule, while the followers of that faith had overrun the Dakhan and were threatening the south with the same fate. South of the Krishna the whole country was still under Hindu domination, but the supremacy of the old dynasties was shaken to its base by the rapidly advancing terror from the north. With the accession in 1325 of Muhammad Taghlaq of Delhi things became worse still. Marvellous stories of his extraordinary proceedings circulated amongst the inhabitants of the Peninsula, and there seemed to be no bound to his intolerance, ambition, and ferocity.
Everything, therefore, seemed to be leading up to but one inevitable end — the ruin and devastation of the Hindu provinces; the annihilation of their old royal houses, the destruction of their religion, their temples, their cities. All that the dwellers in the south held most dear seemed tottering to its fall.
Suddenly, about the year 1344 C.E., there was a check to this wave of foreign invasion — a stop — a halt — then a solid wall of opposition; and for 250 years Southern India was saved.
The check was caused by a combination of small Hindu states — two of them already defeated, Warangal and Dvarasamudra — defeated, and therefore in all probability not over-confident; the third, the tiny principality of Anegundi. The solid wall consisted of Anegundi grown into the great empire of the Vijayanagar. To the kings of this house all the nations of the south submitted.
Before the early 14th century rise of the Vijayanagara empire, the Hindu kingdoms of the Deccan, the Seuna Yadavas of Devagiri, the Kakatiya dynasty of Warangal, the Pandya Kingdom of Madurai, and the tiny Hindu kingdom of Kampili had been repeatedly invaded by rapacious Muslims armies from the north, and by 1336 they had all destroyed mercilessly by Alla-ud-din Khilji and Muhammad bin Tughluq, the Sultans of Delhi. The Hoysala Empire was the sole remaining Hindu kingdom in the path of the Muslim invasion. After the death of Hoysala Veera Ballala III during a battle against the Sultan of Madurai in 1343, the Hoysala empire merged with the growing Vijayanagara empire.
The Vijayanagar kingdom was started in southern India in 1336 CE on a humble note to resist Muslim destruction of the Hoysala territory by Mallik Kafur’s destructive campaign. However, within fifty years, the Vijayanagara kingdom came to be known as a powerful empire and reigned the Indian southern peninsula for nearly 200 years.
The interesting thing to note is that the Vijayanagara empire had to not one, not two, but FIVE hostile Islamic Deccan Sultanates that were snarling at its borders – Bijapur, Golkonda, Ahmadnagar, Bidar, and Berar; all 5 of whom were the result and politico-religious remnants of previous Islamic invasions from the north.
Vijayanagar fought back bravely under king Rama Raya and kept alive the Hindu renaissance to the creeping Islamic Anschluss, in spite of being hemmed in geographically.
See the map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Karta_sodra_indien_1500.jpg
Two Deccani Islamic Sultans, Adil Shah and Nizam Shah made a common cause to wage Jihad on the Hindus. Adil Shah invaded Vijayanagar, but the Vijayanagara king Rama Raya dispatched his general Sadashiva Nayaka to deal with the Islamics. The Islamic army was routed and retreated in disarray. In a clever move to survive in a hostile Islamic sea, Rama Raya then supported one Islamic Sultan against another. He induced Nizam Shah to attack Barid Shah and kept them engaged with each other. Rama Raya then invaded Bidar itself and defeated Barid Shah and brought him under his control.
Thereafter, Rama Raya ‘s brother Venkatadri defeated the army of Qutb Shah and seized the southern districts of the Golconda kingdom. As result of Qutb Shah and his ally Nizam Shah’s retreat the Kalyani fort was taken by Vijayanagar. Then Rama Raya decided to deal with Nizam Shah while Adil Shah was fighting Qutb Shah. The Vijayanagaran army entered Maharashtra and besieged Ahmednagar. However, at the decisive moment the Hindus were robbed of their ultimate conquest by the flooding of the Sina river that washed away their baggage train forcing them to fall back. Not deterred by the retreat, the Vijayanagaran army turned to attack Golconda and pin down Qutb Shah who had just been defeated by Adil Shah. He tried to counter-attack by assaulting the Hindu fortress of Kondavidu. But the Hindu army repulsed his attack and inflicted heavy losses on the Islamic army.
After the 5 Islamic Sultans could not defeat Hindu Vijayanagar in separate wars, they decided to make a common cause for a concerted Jihad to end the Hindu kingdom. The first sealed their friendship through a series of dynastic marriages and then had a combined meeting to sign a pact for Jihad. They gathered together their armies on the plains of Bijapur at the end of 1564 and built up an enormous Islamic horde of around 700,000 troops. This vast army started marching southwards with considerable speed.
Rama Raya faced the situation calmly and on Vijayadashmi day (15th September 1564) asked his generals to prepare for an all out war with the Islamic Jihadi armies. By December the Islamic Jihadi armies reached Talikota, a fortified town near the Krishna river and declared holy war on the infidels. Rama Raya took all the right steps. He sent his brother Tirumala with a large force to prevent the Islamic hordes from crossing the Krishna. He sent his other brother Venkatadri to defend the south bank of the Krishna and he himself came in next with the rest of the army to form the rear. The total Hindu armies appear to have been between 500,000 core troops, plus the mercenaries.
In a manner similar to the modern Indian state, Rama Raya went against the age-old policy of the Vijayanagara state in recruiting Islamic soldiers indiscriminately in his army. Rama Raya’s mistake was appointing two Muslim commanders (the Gilani brothers) to recruit two large divisions with 140,000 Muslim soldiers in the Vijayanagara army, a mistake that would cost the empire the final Battle of Talikota.
These two Islamic divisions in the Vijayanagara ranks were deployed along with Rama Raya ‘s main divisions and betrayed the Hindu empire at the crucial point in the battle, by attacking their own Hindu comrades-in-arms and joining hands with the invading Islamic armies against the Hindu kafirs, as you will see below. This has been strongly supported by the writings of two European travellers, Frendricci and Frenchman Anquetil Du Perron who visited Vijayanagar.
By December 29th 1564 the first battles broke out. Qutb Shah and Nizam Shah decided to go on their own first and led their divisions to clash with Tirumala’s division. The Hindu army inflicted a huge defeat on the Islamics and the Sultans fled in disarray losing thousands of men in the encounter. The Sultans were shaken by this encounter and asked Adil Shah to forget previous arguments and stand by them for the intended Hindu counter-attack. The Sultans met secretly and decided that the only way to succeed was to resort to stratagem. Nizam Shah and Qutb Shah decided to parley with the mighty Raya who was now planning a massive counter-thrust into the Islamic flanks. At the same time Adil Shah sent a false message to the Hindu commander that he wished to remain neutral.
While this was going on, messengers from the Sultans went to the Islamic commanders in the Vijayanagaran army and appealed to their religious duty of Jihad and secured their alliance to launch a subversive attack.
As a result of these parleys Rama Raya delayed his counter-thrust giving a small but critical time window for the Islamic jihadis to regroup. Sultan Imad Shah of Berar made the first thrust by attacking Tirumala’s division guarding the Krishna ford. Tirumala fell upon him with his full force and in short but intense encounter destroyed the Sultan’s army and sent him flying for life. However, the euphoria of this victory proved short-lived as the sultans Nizam Shah, Qutb Shah, Barid Shah on one side and Adil Shah on the other used this distraction to cross the Krishna and attack the main Hindu divisions.
Rama Raya , though thoroughly surprised, rapidly responded. Despite his advanced age (in the 70s) he decided to personally lead the Hindu armies and took to the field in the center. He was faced by Nizam Shah’s division. Rama Raya ‘s first brother Tirumala hurriedly returned to form the left wing of the Hindu army that was countered by Adil Shah and traitorous Hindus under the Maharatta chief Raja Ghorpade. His second brother Venkatadri formed the Hindu right wing that was opposed by Qutb Shah and Barid Shah, strengthened by Nizam Shah’s auxiliaries as the battle progressed. On 23rd Jan 1565 the enormous armies clashed on the plains near the villages of Rakshasi and Tangadi.
Several reports claimed that over a million men were involved in this historic clash. Venkatadri struck early and within the first two hours the Hindu right wing’s heavy guns fired constantly on the ranks of Barid Shah. As the ranks were softened the Hindu infantry under Venkatadri plowed through the divisions of Barid Shah annihilating them. The assault was so vigorous that it looked like a Hindu victory was imminent. Qutb Shah too was in retreat, when Nizam Shah sent his forces to shore up the ranks of the Sultans. Nizam Shah himself was then pressed hard by the heavy cannonade from Rama Raya ‘s division and was facing a Hindu infantry thrust with Rama Raya at the helm.
At this point the Sultans signaled to the Islamic officers in the Vijayanagaran army to launch a subversive attack. Suddenly Rama Raya found his rear surprised by the two Islamic divisions in his ranks turning against him. About 140,000 Islamic troops had opened a vigorous rear attack on the Hindus and captured several artillery positions. Several cannon shells landed near Rama Raya ‘s elephant and he fell from it as his mount was struck by a cannon shard. Rama Raya tried to recover but Nizam Shah made a dash to seize him.
He was dragged to the Islamic camp and the Sultan asked him to acknowledge Allah as the only god. Rama Raya instead cried “Narayana Krishna Bhagavanta”, and Nizam Shah slit the Hindu king’s throat and declared himself a Ghazi in Jihad. Rama Raya ‘s severed head was then fixed to a pole and waved before the Hindu troops.
The Hindus panicked at the death of their commander and chaos broke out in their midst. Venkatadri was also killed as the Qutb, Nizam and Barid put all their forces together and launched a concerted punch. Tirumala tried to stiffen the center but at that point the whole division of Adil Shah that was waiting all the while made the final assault on the rear of Tirumala’s division. The Vijayanagar artillery had by then been exhausted and was blasted by the Adil Shah’s artillery and the Hindus faced a rout. Several 100,000s of troops were slain.
Tirumala seeing the total rout fled to Vijayanagara and taking up the treasury on 1500 elephants fled south towards Penukonda. Those who could flee the city survived, the rest became victims of the Islamic Jihad. The Muslim army swooped down upon the city and beheaded several tens of thousands of the male inhabitants as they could find (“Every one became a Ghazi by killing a Kafir”). The young women were captured for the harems and the rest were herded into groups and burnt alive.
The looting went on for six months, after which the Sultans set fire to the city. The heat from the burning of the city is supposed to have been so intense that it left cracks in the granite hills on its periphery. Rama Raya’s skull was taken by Nizam Shah to Ahmednagar and was fitted to the spout of a drain that opened out of the fort. This grotesque gargoyle bearing the fallen Hindu king’s skull was seen for several years after the event.
Before Vijayanagar fell to the Islamic armies, the Persian traveller Abdur Razzak wrote spell-bound and in awe about Vijayanagara’s vibrancy: “a city like this had not been seen by the pupil of the eye nor had an ear heard of anything equal to it in the world”.
After Rama Raya was beheaded, the capital city of Vijayanagara was thoroughly sacked by the invaders and the inhabitants were massacred. The royal family was largely exterminated.
Vijayanagara, once a city of fabled splendour, the seat of a vast empire, became a desolate ruin, now known by the name of a sacred inner suburb within it, Hampi.
Couto writes: “The enemy had come to destroy, and they carried out their object relentlessly. They slaughtered the people without mercy, broke down the temples and palaces; and wreaked such savage vengeance on the abode of the kings, that, with the exception of a few great stone-built temples and walls, nothing now remains but a heap of ruins to mark the spot where once the stately buildings stood. They demolished the statues, and even succeeded in breaking the limbs of the huge Yoga Narasimha monolith.
Nothing seemed to escape them. They broke up the pavilions standing on the huge platform from which the kings used to watch the festivals, and overthrew all the carved work. They lit huge fires in the magnificently decorated buildings forming the temple of Vitthalasvami near the river, and smashed its exquisite stone sculptures. With fire and sword, with crowbars and axes, they carried on day after day their work of destruction.
Never perhaps in the history of the world has such havoc been wrought, and wrought so suddenly, on so splendid a city; teeming with a wealthy and industrious population in the full plenitude of prosperity one day, and on the next seized, pillaged, and reduced to ruins, amid scenes of savage massacre and horrors beggaring description.
Such was the fate of this great and magnificent city. It never recovered, but remained for ever a scene of desolation and ruin.”
The splendid remains of palaces and gateways of the broken city tell a tale of the Hindu civilization’s infinite talent and power of creativity together with the Quranic capacity for senseless destruction.
When I did walk through the ruins of what was a magnificent Hindu city, the massive 22 feet-tall Murthi (consecrated icon) of Yoga Narasimha moved me to tears. The original statue contained the image of goddess Lakshmi, consort of the god, sitting on his lap. But this statue has been damaged seriously during the Islamic raid after the fall of Vijayanagara. Even the damaged portion of such a large statue of Lakshmi carved on his lap is missing. Probably it may be laying around in tiny pieces. But the goddess’s hand is visible resting on his back in embracing posture. If you get a chance to go inside this enclosure, it is possible to see the hand of the goddess. Even the nails & the rings on her fingers are so perfectly executed.
Thus the first great Hindu counter-offensive against the ravages of Islam in the South ended. However, it did not mean the end of the Hindu resistance. The complete Islamization of south India was prevented by the successors of Rama Raya in a prolonged struggle over the next 100 years, when the baton of the Hindu revival was taken over by the Marathas under Shivaji.
@Pakele hum thakele tum : bas kya bhai…. lakho hinduo ko toh mar diya..ab kyu mamu ban raha hai!!!! teri sarkar hai, teri media hai bhai..maje maar…
@annon:
Kitne unche vichaar hai aapke!
In vicharon se Nandigram ka problem zaroor solve ho jayega.
Didn’t you know, as soon we establish whether Vijaynagar was a bastion of Hindu resilience against Islamic invaders 700 years ago, Buddhadeb will step down from power, Nandigram victims will be compensated, and all the Trinamool hoodlums will go to jail. Oh, and the Tatas will set up their plant on the outskirts of Srinagar.
Honest!
Aur ek baat…Hujurji ke gyaan se pak ke Sweet Melissa converted to Pakele Hum Thakele Tum. But you must have already figured that out.
Hey, what’s another inane comment among a flood of inane commentary!
Dear The Wanderer:
You gave some fleeting examples of a lot of historical contexts and also did some funny legpulling of us so called Hindu revivalists.
Let me address each of these and then wr can continue the pow-wow. Those who feel offended need not read further.
Wanderer claims:
Barring a few exceptions like Ghaznavi, Ghauri and Aurangzeb, the Islamic rule in India was primarily a political-military campaign where Hindus/Jains/Sikhs just happened to be convenient and weak political enemies an hence, victims.
Rishi’s response:
Barring a few insignificant figures like Dara Sikhoh and Khusro Khan (who helped Hemu Vikramaditya take over the command of the dilapitated Afghan army against Mughals), the DRIVING IDEOLOGY OF THE SULTANATE, THE MUGHALS, the subsequent Islamic enclaves, all the way to the Hyderabad Nizamate, WAS ISLAM and its dominance.
Now as for the insignificant figures I mentioned, ie, Dara Sikhon and Khusrau Khan, who supported the the Hindu Hemu, they remain insignificant because they sided with the Kafirs.
As the Wanderer righly proclaimed and used as a logic to obfuscate, all these Islamic rulers may have fought with each other, killed their sons, screwed their sisters, or fought on ethnic lines (the Turk vs Persian, the Afghan vs. the local Hindu convert, etc etc), BUT, the Kafirs Hindu, Jain, Sikh and Buddhist remained the enemy, always.
Yes, maybe Akbar was not as bad as Aurangzeb and Razia Sultan and Balban were not as bad as Mohammad Ghauri or Alauddin Khilji, but its like comparing Eichmann to Brunner, and doing a body count.
I am utterly amazed at the alacrity with which The Wanderer chose the Khilji’s as the representative of tolerent Islamic rule. Even Romila Thapar cannot pull that off.
Alauddin Khilji and Malik Kafur (a converted Hindu slave) are the epitome of wat a Ideal follower of Islam can do to the hopeless Kafirs.
Dear The Wanderer:
Your constant harping of the weakness of different non-Islamic rulers as a alibi to absolve the rulers who followed Islam of their Koran inspired crimes, reminds me of a justifiation that Romilla Thapar once gave.
When Romilla was shown evidence of the thousands of temples that were demolished as part of Islam-inspired campaigns, she gave the example of the Sun Temple at Modhera and said, “Look that one is still standing”.
Does that in any way absolve the rulers who followed the Quran of their responsibility of destroying the 1000 other Hindu temples.
You also claim that people like me, Hujur, HHBB, Sunil, Yourfan2 are somehow under the remote control of some fellow, who is orchestrating the Hindutva propaganda, as you called it.
Fear not, with the free distribution of information and misinformation, it doesnt take long for people to separate the rice from the chaff. Unlike controlled media and dollar driven propaganda, the playing field of information warfare is flatter than ever before.
I am here to find people especially Bengalis who are willing to take the next step in mass activism and who will eventually form the cog in the huge wheel that will drive awareness campaigns against the trheat perceptions that I talk about. I
I am very open about it.
@Khujur: “I am here to find people especially Bengalis who are willing to take the next step in mass activism and who will eventually form the cog in the huge wheel that will drive awareness campaigns against the trheat perceptions that I talk about.”
Well, I am here to read interesting articles and commentary, not to be bombarded with recruitment propaganda masquerading as political ideology by right-wing nut jobs. If others agree with me, can we please ask you to set up your knicker-shop somewhere else on the blogosphere?
sweet Melissa:
Didnt know you owned this blog.
@sweet/sour melisa / wanderer / Pakele…etc – i agree that wanderer’s googling skills will have little meaning if legitimate concerns of hindus are not acknowledged by the larger hindu population…stop being a fashionable dhimmi, cool-liberal…
islamic fundamentalism is for real and is growing stronger each day.. it’s closer than u think or want to wish away..
wake up before it’s too late… (sonia won’t come to save u my dear friend..she would be the first to run to italy)
neither would high paying secular elites ….
calling rss knickers and bashing modi won’t help..
so take care and be safe…
khujur: “Didnt know you owned this blog.”
If I did, I would have asked you to stick to the topic and stop making offensive comments long back (As Vasabjit pointed out, most of what you and your pals dish out can be construed as hate speech). Obviously, GB is a lot more indulgent than I am, perhaps in the hope that it’s better to let you run out of steam on your own.
@annon: There is a real world out there, you know? Beyond your simplistic stereotypes…
@SM :yea right and there’s also a world out there that does not want to deal with inconvenient realities..and wish away..everything under the carpet…hush hush…mulllahs will be angry…
*yawn*
to all our sweet philosophers of science having a monopoly on the ‘real’, i humbly introduce common sense, or naive realism. there’s no need for turf battles. we have enough evidence, ‘common’ enough to make sense out of them.
>> Khujur
Nice little sleight of hand you pulled off there. The first of the three massive (obviously googled out) posts is indeed from Robert Sewell, but the the other two are are clever cut-and-pastes from at least two other sources… biased sources at that too. One source is Hauma Hamiddha of the ultra right India-Forum, I know ‘coz I was there when that article was first posted (first time on the net, I believe). Readers can simply do a string search of Sewell’s online book and Google out the India-Forum article to corroborate. Heck, the very shift in tone and innuendo after the first of the three posts madke this clearly apparent. Anyway, Sewell mentions just 5000 Cavalry who broke through and doesn’t feature much of the gore……
PS: Are you “Hauma Hamiddha”? I don’t think so. 🙂
@SM : sleep well.
>>the DRIVING IDEOLOGY OF THE SULTANATE, THE MUGHALS, the subsequent Islamic enclaves, all the way to the Hyderabad Nizamate, WAS ISLAM and its dominance……
I know the Knickerwaalahs want to portray medieval political history as some sort of a “Clash of Civilizations” between fair, just Hindus and evil-rapist Muslims…. serves the present agenda, eh? However, even their in-bedded historians would not make this sweeping uvaacha. 🙂
This theory of yours (and others like you) has more holes than a ton of Swiss Cheese but I’ll let it go for the moment. Why? You prolly would cut and paste more bile and anecdotal evidences from VOI/Bharatvani to “prove” the contrary….. I on the other hand am too old, too tired and unfunded to do the Dance of the Seven Veils in a blog. Anyway, I must give it to you guys for starting from say, Khiljli’s murderous “Loot and Scoot” or Nizam Shah’s rhetoric and arriving at the “Continuing Islamic Digvijaya”. Green Scare, anyone?
PS: By the way; why SHOULD’T the Turk-Mongols plant their own flag, viz. flag of Islam in India? After all they won those lands in battle, didn’t they? Why do these Khujur Fundie types whine so much on this?! Didn’t we deserve the bloodshed, foreign subjugation and humiliation and thereby get sense knocked back into our heads?
———————–
>>I am utterly amazed at the alacrity with which The Wanderer chose the Khilji’s as the representative of tolerent Islamic rule. Even Romila Thapar cannot pull that off.
I know that was yet another salvo of rhetoric but FYI, Romila Thapar deals with Ancient India. Pre-History to Tripartite Struggle for Northern India. Comprende? I am yet to see her commenting on Khilji… maybe you can be kind to point me out in the “right” direction.
Khilji was a warmonger, lusty and dangerous….. but his rule and his reforms did more to stabilize the socio-political and economic picture and thus cement the victory of the Sultanate Apparatus. These were pretty much unchanged (even by Sher Shah and Akbar) and followed to a large extent by the Brits till 1858. He wasn’t a lovable bunny but he was a competent, strong King…. saved our collective skins from the three waves of Mongol attacks too. Give credit where it’s due.
@Wanderer:
“The first of the three massive (obviously googled out) posts is indeed from Robert Sewell, but the the other two are are clever cut-and-pastes from at least two other sources… biased sources at that too.”
Are you serious? This is unbelievable. Khujur lying to us, using chicanery? Now how on earth can that be? He is a true Hindu and they don’t lie!!!
Please don’t wreck the image of the intellectual, erudite Hindu guardian he has created in our minds. …sniff…
>>…. Rulers who followed Islam of their Koran inspired crimes…. Does that in any way absolve the rulers who followed the Quran of their responsibility of destroying the 1000 other Hindu temples…
Khujur Mian,
Nobody’s “absolving” anybody here or whitewashing anything, birader. I am perfectly aware of what happened. Sh1t happened, sh1t happens… and we Hindus had it coming back then. But I don’t see any reason why I should take too much umbrage at some Muslim bigot who pulled down a dozen temples 700 years ago. What right do I have to feel so riled up about Muslims when copper-bottomed Hindus razed my lands for their British masters just 80 yrs ago? Look at it this way, the Turks weren’t anybody else’s b1tches! While it’s true that the Koran has deeply inflammatory ideas (and caused some medieval bigots to “carry out the teachings” as state policy) I don’t see why it should be snatched away from Aam Muslims (who are overwhelmingly sensible folk) in modern India. I don’t see what INDIA gains if Gyanvapi Mosque is “wrested back” or Mathura Masjid be demolished in revenge for Keshava Rai temple.
People mature, nations mature and evolve over the eons and put their ghosts to rest(painful process)…. it’s evolutionary dead-ends like the Sanghwaffen and their Islamist buddies that want to control the present and future by dwelling in the past. If it was fighting Paki/Arab inspired Islamism (Syed Qutub, Maududi type) then I would have agreed wholeheartedly. But THIS is simply about raising the “wrongs of the past”, cynical political skulduggery of the present and imagined Kralizecs of the future….. and duke it out with Islam and Muslims in India.
Muslims are here in strength, wield considerable influence (sometimes inordinate) in the ambling path of Indian Elephant and they happened to resist the all absorbing Hindu Faith and ruled the place for nearly a millennium. Nothing can change what happened and you can’t wish Indian Muslims away…. not until you go SS-Totenkopf (as sweetly suggested by the Singhal type zealots). Deal with it. If you want to be paranoid, boil with “just rage” and sport a h@rd-on 24/7, be our guest. I for one just want to be free of the same old drivel your types blare out in this blog like a stuck 78rpm record. This blog doesn’t have an “Ignore” button you see and there are too many half-wits and p-secs indulging you in p1ss1ng contests….. I stepped in ‘coz I was sick and tired of the half-history and outright BS that littered and twisted this cool blogspace.
PS: Talk about capturing attention…. I guess your types would have been doing the same thing if fr1ggin’ Desibaba had an active forum.
>> Re Shan:
The fundies take lessons from no one when it comes to selective quotation, propagandu, perjury and forging gold-plated falsity. I fell out with one such (prominent) group when they tried to give a despicable, unforgivable spin on the Indian National Movement and the course of Modern India. Take it from me, “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” has nothing on their “White Papers”.
>> Everyone:
I am so tired of this HHBB, Khujur type bile-BS combo in perhaps the best Indian blog. I myself started blogging (now on ice) being inspired from GB (said so in my first post and I have linked RTDM as “Guru Greatbong”) and stuck to making smart-alec comments and rare welter-weight stuff. I thought I had to step in seeing the comments space taken over by a one-track hate agenda. I dunno what GB himself thinks of this and he does allow freedom of speech here, but heavens…. Hadh Kar Diya in logon ne!
@Wanderer: Tsk tsk! You were great while refuting Rishi’s points. Pointing out that the second and third quotes were not from Sewell was the best thing you have done to demolish his viewpoint. Don’t spoil your arguments by personal abuses.
I gave up arguing with one of those idiots (Shadows) long ago. I stopped when I found myself getting frustrated by the level of hate in these folks. I ended up recommending isapgol to all and sundry, hoping that it would reduce the level of anal retentiveness.
The latest U&A data shows that isapgol sales haven’t increased in the past year. Guess my advice has fallen on deaf years once again!
*Sigh!*
The Wanderer: I think you spoke for quite a few of us who visit this blog for intelligent eye-opening discussion, not half-baked knowledge passed off as informed opinion. This exchange with Hujur/Khujur is a perfect example of politically motivated nonsense being rammed down the throats of those of us who are naive enough or not informed enough to take these half-truths as facts.
@ wanderer:
you should have spoken out a long time ago. it would prevent people like me from displaying my ignorance in public.
@ shan:
i dont think you should keep quiet if someone is going to take over this website through their propaganda.
sayon..not shan..sorry sorry.. must smoke less dope.
Hello Wanderer,
I will try to address some of of the issues that you have raised. I will in the process repeat what I think is your stand. Please bear with me. Also Please let em know if I misconstrue what you say (Your english is difficult for a lower middle class bengali school educated person like me to comprehend)
1. During the Khalistan Movement Hindus were pulled out buses and killed so the Khalistan Movement was the same as Islamic fundamentalism.
2. The entire 9th Sikh regiment mutinied after Bluestar and thereby they should be counted in the same category as the Muslims who betrayed the Vijaynagar Armies.
3. Muslim Invaders were right in imposing their way of life on Non Muslims since they had earned the right by winning in battle. Plus it was the medieval times and hence barbarity was warranted.
4. Khalji was an efficient administrator and so we must give him credit for it and also overlook his obvious religious Fanatacism and that of later rulers.
My response:
1. There have been many attempts on this forum to club the Khalistan Movement with Islamic imperialism. I think it is patently unfair to do so because of the following reasons –
a. Khalistan movement unlike Islamic extremism had no sanction from religion.
b. It was a political issue that failed to mobilise the massess as is evident from the fact that there was no Direct action day and also no migration from Punjab a la Kashmir.
c. The movement was brought down by the Sikhs under Sikh leadership and not by the Army.
d. In subsequent elections the very party that was blamed for fighting against the Sikhs came to power.
e. The leader of the extremist movement, Bhindranwale, inspite of being a violent and bigoted man never believed in imposition of Sikhism on others even if Khalistan was created. This was evident from a recorded interview where he says “I want a Sikh to be a true Sikh and a hindu to be a true Hindu. I am not against any religion, I am against mixing them”.
f: Yes there were incidents where Hindus were targeted, but they were few and far between as is evident from the fact that there has not been any decline in the Hindu Population of Punjab in the last few decades, quite unlike what we have seen in Bangladesh and Pakistan and Kashmir.
2. Yes the 9th Sikh in Ganganagar mutinied and so did some recruits at the regimental center in Ramgarh. However an enquiry commission was established to investigate this and many of the mutineers were reinstated as it was found out that they acted on rumours and repented their actions when told what had actually happened during Bluestar. Gen Vaidya’s attempt to have mixed class companies was also shelved by Gen Sundarji on the basis of this investigation. Also may I remind you that the number of Mutineers was around 500. Considering that Punjab contributes to around 10% of the million strong army and 20% of the Officer core the ratio of Mutineers to the total Punjabi Population in the army is 0.5%. This is hardly comparable to the Mutinies that the Vijaynagar Armies faced. Also bear in mind that Operation Bluestar was planned and conducted by Gen KS Brar (Jat Sikh). He was given this task by GOC Northern Command Gen HS Dayal (Sikh). All sikhs in the Bluestar Task force were given the option to back out and none did. A young Leiutenant Rana (jat Sikh) demanded from Brar that he be the first to enter the complex and was shot in the legs. He was awarded the Ashok Chakra. There fore your introduction of this topic is patently misleading and false.
3. On this point I have nothing to say. Since you think it is right for invading armies to destroy the culture they invade all I can say is that never in History have Hindu/Sikh armnies brought about destruction of the Cultures that they have defeated and this only reaffirms my suspicion that the motivating factor for Muslim Armies to impose their beliefs on the conquered was Islam. This gives me greater cause to be worried about Islamic Imperialism and expansion.
4. May I remind you that many can say the same about Modi in Gujrat. Only difference being he is supposedly responsible for lesser number of people being killed than Khalji. Are you in agreement with this? If so, then this discussion is futile.
Thanks
Sunil.
I live in Mumbai. I knw what Nandigram is but I had no idea abt the kind of politics involved in this situation. Arnab, I read the whole article and omg! I am insulated and I don’t know wot is happening in my own country. I am stunned that we live in a democracy and the kind of shit that happens.I don’t knw who is rt and who is wrong and sometimes I think its all grey. Wish power and money would not go to people’s heads! 😦
@Rishi – It turns out that your “millions on this blog” are actually wishing that your clan goes away. Ufff, now I am really worried about the Hindus. By the way I think you have a young potential here called “Sunil”, for the cog in the wheels of Hindu revival leading to Vijaynagar. Is that enough for a month, is the target achieved? Can we please be spared now, to enjoy the brilliant posts from GB? GB turn it on man, its about time.
Hi Khujur, Hujur et all,
I have been reading all your posts as per this topic and even the earlier ones. What bothers me right now is that I am tired of the re-runs of your kind of statements. At the same time, there must be a Muslim ‘counter part’ of yours, your soul-brother who is doing the same, bad mouthing hindus while some moderate Muslim is trying to reason with them.
Anways, can you get to the next ‘season’ of your lengthy diatribe and tell us, what as Hindus we should do to stop this Muslim ‘invasion’. My position as middle class, educated, working class allows minimal or negligible interaction with the uneducated Muslims who seem to be the main target of the brainwashers and you all, who proclaim against them.
And if I leave the responsibility of this interaction to you all, where you and your brethren becomes the interface and mouthpiece, I forsee more damage than ever.
One of you said that Sonia cannot save us? Then who will? The other leaders, who are equally bad? The hindu leaders who get into regionalistic and selfish politics, the moment we expect them to stand for India and not for their state-caste-region. Take the example of the ‘Hindu Hriday Samrat’ Bal Thakeray. He wants Mumbai for Marathis, forget Muslims, even Hindus from different regions of India (specially UP and Bihar) have been told to leave, time and again.His memory has been bad enough to forget the countless Gujaratis and Parsis who made the city its present self. (And if the greatest bhaiyaa, that Amitabh leaving Mumbai, heaven help the brands). Then there’s the bunch of goons under Kannada rakshan Vedika, wanting Bangalore for Kannadigas, who according to a recent estimate occupies 27% of the Bangalore population.
Lets atleast the due credit to Muslims that they could rise ‘above’ all this and their heart bleeds for their brathern anwhere in the world. We could not. Look at Nepal, the only Hindu country in the world, known to harbour anti-India sentiments and offering traffic to arms, drugs etc, all to be used here.
So, other than transfering money to your hacker safe factusa (whatever it is called) site to counter all that hawala money from Dubai that finances the terror strikes, what can I do? Atleast that might fund upgrading the site from the 1999 figures.
While I read your posts , I cannot help but think of the Muslims from various stages of life who have been friends, brothers, sisters and one Bangladeshi even managed to become the good daughter of my parents while poor me became the bad one.
One of you mentioned in your post of being back from village India on some project or other. Wonder if you go to exclusive ‘Hindu’ villages. Do you also have similar sentiments about your caste. Have this uncanny feeling that you must be one of those right-wing people who called the tribals as Vanvaasi and made them return to ‘Hindu’ fold ! (Trying hard not drop names)… dont tell me you dont about this. I was amazed that you took so much pain in typing so much for the sake of counter-argument on a blog. If I had known you all, couple of years back, I would have studied history with you , Medieval History of India to be precise.
Honestly, I am tired of the images on TV, the Paris suburb riots, the Guwahati barbaric image of the Adivasi woman being dragged, the Lucknow blasts and I know for sure that retaliation would never end this. Wonder what will.
Hello Annonx,
I am mildly surprised by the fact that you for all your intellectual prowess have chosen not to answer my questions but take swipes at Rishi. If what I say does not appeal to you, please question it with facts and logic. Taking swipes at people and engaging in namecalling will only imply that you dont have answers and hence are looking for a (dis)honourable escape route.
Thanks
Sunil.
School days rhyme, learnt to counter bothersome elder cousins
“Kukurer kaaj kukure koreche ,
Kaamre diyeche paaye,
Taibole Manush kokhno.
Kukur hoe jaaye?”
(the dog has done it’s deed, bitten on my leg, but can a human degrade self to the position of a dog?)
@ sunil:
– sikh terrrorism created refugees to haryana. get your facts right.
just google it.. you’ll find out. it is chronicled on reputed websites like human rights watch.
– khalistan was supposed to be 100% sikh. with hindus leaving for haryana. this is what is meant by the ‘not mixing’ of religions.
– and obviously no demographic change has happened in the last two decades. terrorism is over in punjab! the chandigarh sharing issue is practically dead.
one one hand sikh terrorism is dismissed as a creation of pakistan but you cannot extend this courtesy to indian muslims despite the well documented role of foreign agencies in every terrorist attack!
and you dont think the vast majority of indian muslims defeat extremism on a daily basis by their simple act of living their lives in peace? for example, when i last checked there was no insurgency in kerala.
you are using a separate set of logic and standard for each religion in order to draw a distinction between their fundamentalism. its a self defeating proposition as all extremism is the outcome of the same mental disease despite the political context – hatred of the other.
@ sunil:
i would also be grateful if you could please explain to me that if the Khalistan movement had no religious sanction then how did they use the Golden Temple as the base for their operations.
you think sikhs are some clowns that any old fool in their community can fortify and stock arms in their most precious religious structure without their express approval?
the article from human rights watch i cited can be found at:
http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/kashmir/1994/kashmir94-03.htm
i particular i would like you to defend the killing of hindu religious leaders by the militants. maybe they didnt like their dress sense.
thanks
w.t.f.
@ Sayon Shan WTF and The Wanderer:
I never quoted Robert Sewell nor did I claim it anywhere.
Please read my comments and tell me whee Rishi Khujur quotes Robert Sewell.
Dipanwita:
Blind retaliation never works, but understanding the issues and working in a informed manner hels to prevent the situation that creates mindless violence in the frst place.
I dont know if you use to read my comments, but in th “Banana Republic” post, there was a nice dicussion on what needs to be done.
@ Sayon, Shan, The Wanderer, WTF:
But I find it funny that Hujur’s (NOT RISHI KHUJUR) omission of source in his 2nd an 3rd point awoke the strawman in each of you…
@ rishi:
while i do not have the knowledge of history to follow the specifics of the debate, i like how The Wanderer pointed out the larger assumptive fallacies and jump in logics of your arguments. and the style he did it in! he stated a lot of stuff ive been trying to say to you much clearly than i ever could.
i dont know who the hell robert sewell is and dont care.
you agreed in a previous post that a comparison of past persecution and present persecution is inaccurate as best represented by the prejudice against jews.
i dont see you complain when your amen corner of hhbb, hujur, sunil and youfan2 support you.
but man has the stuffing has been taken out of you guys in this post!
@ Sayon and Shan:
So you wait for The Wanderer to wrongly ascribe the authorship of a quote (which I didnt use) to me, just so you could write your retorts ….lolll 🙂
I think you guys went down the wrong alley.
@ Hujur
Man….always give your sources when you post stuff from reference matarial man….otherwise, this wanderer fellow will use his splattering of Nazi era terminology and and push it under my name and then all the “strawman fallacies” will follow. 🙂
@ rishi:
it easy to confuse khujur and hujur.
i confuse shan and sayon all the time.
still.. the cut and paste trick/’mistake’ that hujur tried was pretty hardcore.
Hello WTF,
I tried to find out how many Hindu refugees came from Punjab in to Haryana but could not find anything.Can you send me a link please? I will again try to summarise your stand and respond to it to the best of my limited abilities. Please bear with me and correct me if I am wrong.
1. Khalistan was to be 100% Sikh.
2. There has been no fall in the population of Hindus in Punjab due to the fact that Khalistan has been dead for the last couple of decades.
3. On one hand I am “absolving” Sikhs by calling the Khalistan issue a creation of Pakistan, while applying different standards on the countless Muslims who defeat it by the simple act of living in peace and not participating in it.
My Response:
1. Incorrect: Here is the exact quote by Bhindranwale “Responding to the formation of Khalistan he is quoted as saying, “We won’t reject it. We shall not repeat 1947.”[12] ” Source – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jarnail_Singh_Bhindranwale#_note-8
2. There has never been a significant fall in the Hindu population in Punjab before, during or after the Khalistan Movement. Some people may have left out of fear (I am not sure about this since I am waiting for your source on this) but there was no migration like, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Kashmir.
3. I am neither absolving all the Sikhs (some sections of the Akali Leadership were culpable)nor am I suspecting every Muslim of being a terrorist (one of my closest friends is Muslim). All that I am trying to say is that Islam by its very nature wields greater power on the minds and actions of its followers. When this fact is combined with the hate filled verses the Koran contains, whose immutability cannot be questioned we are faced with a philosophy that can easily turn perfectly normal people in to murderous mobs hell bent of smothering dissent and destroying anything that is irreconciliable with their ideology. It is this phenomenon that we need to protect ourselves from in order to ensure our freedom. The solution is not to engage in war with Islam or slaughter hapless Muslims as has been attributed to people like me by people like you. The solution lies in understanding this phenomenon in its reality and countering it in a peaceful, civilised fashion through social awareness, lobbying and ensuring that governments and politicians treat all communities with fairness and equality.
I also think that Khalistan and Islamic Fundamentalism are different because while both have support from outside, the latter unlike the former has religious sanction and significant local support which is why the latter has been able to thrive while the former has died down. Also the nature of the conflicts is different. While Khalistan was essentially a movement(with no mass support) designed to separate from India, Islamic Fundamentalism seeks to subjugate and convert India. This objective along with the religious sanction that Islamic terror has constitutes a cardinal difference between the two.
I dont quite understand your logic of giving credit to ordinary Muslims for not engaging in terrorism, as if they are doing this world a great favour by not being violent.
I would like to repeat, I DONT hate Muslims. I however think that Islamic Fundamentalism poses the greatest danger to our way of life and must be countered both by the state and the people.
Thanks
Sunil
@ The Wanderer:
I know Romila’s expertise. But that doesnt stop her from giving the type of statements that she made.
BTW, Mahmud of Ghazni was a smart military general and Goebbels was a great propagandist. Does that in any way make them less “responsible” for what they did, targeting Hindus and Jews respectively or just because a Jihad is done “efficiently”, it becomes secular.
You are trying to tell me and the audience that what Alaudin Khilji (and Malik Kafur) did to Hindus in Deccan was just efficient but secular political/military action?
@ sunil:
again.. on the distinction:
the base of the militant movement was the Golden Temple.. where do you get an absence of religious sanction for sikh terrorism from?
and if that was a perversion of sikhism.. then so is islamic terrorism.. see the origins of islamic terrorism in ayotollah khomeini and iran-iraq war.
i agree that sikhism does not have an entrenched hatred of hindus (it has one against muslims) like islam does for non-believers. but when their religiously leaders preach hatred against hindus, what difference does it make?
i never accused you of hating muslims. i just find you distinguishing islamic hatred from other types of hatred rather curious.
@ sunil:
ok.. so islam has this grip on the minds of their believers but at the same time the vast majority of them do not share this prejudice and live peacefully (especially in India) with other religions then there is no credit to them.
right.
i think something is missing somewhere. oh yeah..logic!
@ statistics on hindu migration:
the lack of an extensive study may suggest that perhaps our institutions share your belief that sikh atrocities on hindus are not as bad as muslim atrocities on hindus.
the article i cited more than repudiated your belief that attacks on hindus were isolated incidents.
Hello WTF,
My Points:
1. Your link does not state that there was migration of Hindus from Punjab to Haryana or the number of refugess Sikh extremists created. It only states that there were violent attacks on Hindus and also Sikhs who did not believe in what the Khalistaanis said. So your point of Khalistan being a 100% Sikh state on the lines of Pakistan , Kashmir and Bangladesh is not correct.
2. When I say that a particular activity has religious sanction, I mean if engaging in that activity has been encouraged and rewarded in the core philosophy of that religion. If you have ever seen the Harmandar Sahib you will realise that even you could have stockpiled ammunition inside it. You dont have to have religious sanction to smuggle arms in to a Gurudwara like Harmandar Sahib which is open to all 24/7.
3. Like I said earlier Bhindranwale was a very violent and bigoted man and he targeted anyone who spoke against him irrespective of their religion. However he was not in favour of ethnic cleansing like his quote I have put in the earlier post proves.
Your attempts to club Islamic Fundamentalism with the Khalistan Movement are brave. However there is a cardinal difference between the two. It being the objective of the movement and its moorings in the core philosophy of the religion. That is why I think your attempts are also futile.
Thanks
Sunil.
Hello WTF,
Your points
1. Base of the movement was Golden Temple so there was religious sanction.
2. Islam has enshrined hatred for no believers,
3. Sikhism does not have this for Hindus,
4. But it has one for Muslims.
5. There was a hindu migration from Punjab but it cannot be proved because there was no study conducted.
6. The article you cited proved that attacks on Hindus were not just isolated incidents, but an effort to drive them out of Punjab.
7. I believe that “islam has this grip on the minds of their believers but at the same time the vast majority of them do not share this prejudice and live peacefully (especially in India) with other religions then there is no credit to them.”
My Response:
1. Already explained, please see last post.
2. Correct
3. Correct
4. Incorrect -Sikhism has no hatred for anyone. Please read up on Sikh scriptures before you say this or else quote one scripture that propagates hatred for Muslims.
5. You cannot expect me believe that it happened just because you think so without providing a shred of evidence. Dont make up things please.
6. Yes Hindus were targeted sometimes and so were Sikhs who opposed Bhindranwale but the vast majority of Sikhs did not abet and support this like in Kashmir, Pakistan and Bangladesh
and there was no “Direct Action day”
7. Yes given the right excuse it has the grip and the potential to turn ordinary people in to Monsters like it did in Park Circus one week back. If you dont like this historically proven fact you are welcome to disagree.
Thanks
Sunil.
@ The Wanderer:
While you are the one who indulge in skulldeggery and sleight to confuse people (I am sure Shan and Sayon are banging their head for the premature glee with which they attacked me before reading the orginal comments), you do have the honesty to admit that yes, the Islamic entrance in India was horrifci or those who didnt convert.
The Wanderer wrote:
Nobody’s “absolving” anybody here or whitewashing anything, birader. I am perfectly aware of what happened. Sh1t happened, sh1t happens… and we Hindus had it coming back then.
Rishi’s response:
Yes we Hindus had it coming back then and we have it coming even now. Thats exactly the point I am trying to make…thanks for saying that.
The Wanderer says:
While it’s true that the Koran has deeply inflammatory ideas (and caused some medieval bigots to “carry out the teachings” as state policy) I don’t see why it should be snatched away from Aam Muslims (who are overwhelmingly sensible folk) in modern India.
Rishi’s response:
Read my previous posts which talk of this in detail. But find me any place in India where followers of Koran are in substantial numbers and people are living in peace.
So the point is that its not some medieval bigot that is responsible, its the message of the Kuran that makes the modern day man into a medieval bigot.
Calling me Khujurdoodles, Khujur mian, knickers, charlatan and a host of other names (to which Sayon and Shan promptly added theirs) in every post doesnt add anything to the argument my friend. While this name calling will earn you accolades from sweet melissa (lol), it doesnt help the argument.
I am not Hauda Hammidha….but why is it so important for you to continuously try to find my identity?
Hammir dev Chauhan, btw, was a Rajput general who gave a bloody nose to the followers fo Islam during his time.
correction to first para last comment
the Islamic entrance in India was horrific for those who didnt convert.
Hello WTF
To add to point 7
And yes there is no credit for being normal irrespective of which religion you belong to.
Thanks
Sunil.
Hello Rishi,
I know that a lot of personal dirt has been thrown at you by WTF, Shan, wanderer etc. I admire the way you have taken it in your stride. For them all I can say is the following couplet in Urdu:
” Har ek baat pe kehte ho ki Tu kya hai,
Tumhi batao ye andaaz e guftagoo kya hai.
Mere sawalon ka jawaab to nahin hai tere paas ai waaiz,
chalo itna hi bata do ki teri justajoo kya hai.”
– With due apologies to Mirza Asadullah Khan “Ghalib”.
has anybody read Daniel Dennett’s Guns,Germs, and Steel? I mention this because the whole books is an analysis of how a different set of initial conditions and some chance factors over a long timeline, can lead to substantially different observable factors, in communities. So, Rishi I would encourage you to read reviews of that book. What you are saying might be statistically true (that a particular community as a whole demonstrates more aggression than all other communities) because of the factors I have mentioned above, but it does not mean that deviations from the avaerage in any community doesnt abound or that there is something intrinsically violent about a community …
Have you observed that none of these so called liberals have spoken even once about what’s happening with Taslima?
All the time that googler was qouting Ramola etc without even coming close to Nandigram/Taslima/All-India Muslim forum ….
thats so typical ..
hehehe… Remember that muslim tailor who was paraded by he secular commies in Kolkata after Gujarat riots – well he went back to the communal hindu kingdom of Modi within 2 years… poor chap could not take the progressive , liberal crap for too long….. 🙂
Let these Kool-aiders live in their sweet ignorant cocoon… Rishi/Sunil you don’t have to bother too much for them…
“Kush raho ehele watan…hum to safar kartey hai”…..
@Sunil:
What delicious irony! Quoting a Muslim poet in support of Rishi! 😀
The Ghalib couplet more appropriate for you guys (especially on this messageboard) is this:
“Hazaaron khwaishein aisi ki har khwaish pe dam nikle,
Bahut nikle mere armaan lekin phir bhi kam nikle.
Nikalna khund se Aadam ka sunte aaye hai lekin,
Bade be-abroo hokar tere kooche se hum nikle.”
😀
Rishi, that book is by Jared Diamond, by the way
Hello Shan,
Considering how most of you have had to resort to namecalling and personal insults in this argument all I can say is that the couplet quoted by you applies more to you than to Rishi.
I would however like to complete it for you
Khuda ke waaste parda na apni aankhon se utha waiiz,
kya pata yahan bhi wahi kaafir haqeeqat nikle.
kahan sadaaqat ka darwaza aur tu kahan waaiz,
bas itna jaante hain ki kaazib teri naseehat nikle.
With due apologies to Mirza Asadullah Khan “Ghalib”.
Thanks
Sunil
@ Shan
After the foot in mouth situation you got yourself (along with WTF and Sayon) into, you still write back?
I am awaiting Hujur’s response and references to the second and third comments he gave.
@Hujur:
Dipanwita raised a good point about what the next step is and also her questions about the downtroddens. Since you travelled around a lot during the past 2 weeks in different parts of India, can you please give a comprehensive response on what is being done and how she can help?
@ Somak
I understand and appreciate your point. its the “belief syste” that guides the “community” which is my concern. I have alway alway maintained that.
>> Re Sunil
1. “Modi and Khilji…”
Wow, I asked that Khilji’s excesses must be overlooked given his able stewardship?
Modi
might have brought development to Gujarat (and put the heat the underworld which started to
lean closer to the crooks in Pakistan… a point most Knickerwaalahs don’t seem to know) but
still he has the blood of many Muslims and Hindus on his hands. Just like Khilji.
BTW, Fundoolog…. just a point. Why are you guys so hot on Modi? He provides some alm for
some sort of hurt psyche and tell all the things you want to hear? Let me say that it doesn’t
require much “Mardani” to gather some Bajrangi punks and torch Muslim enclaves/homes in the
New City….. And this was while Signal Falia and Juhapura, areas directly responsible for Hindu
carnage and having many able-bodied Muslim men (and home to many dangerously criminal
elements) were left quite untouched. I wonder why. If Modi was so Loha Purursh on
Terrorirsm and Organised Crime I would also like him to do something about the “international
clearances” in Surat, Diamond trade/narcotics trade ballasted Black Economy and Hawala
rackets operating out of Gujarat. I also wonder why the assorted “raging hearts” that pump
crimson p1ss for Hindus don’t take their Seva/”Battle” into Srinagar or Baramulla or Sopore or
Siliguri instead of chasing teenaged couples in parks. Hey, Christian missionaries go deep into
Afghanistan….. why don’t we see the knickers doing the same at least inside India?!
2. “9 Sikh…”
Precisely. The actions of those 1035(?) uniformed soldiers and for that matter Beant
Singh-Satwant Singh were aberrations…. The Shamsher Bahadurs, Ibrahim Khan Gardis, the
Maraikkars, the Jezail Infantry/Pindari Cavalry of Marathas and the Afghans under Rana Pratap
served with distinction and valor for the Hindus too.
But I note you are seeking safety in numbers. Please note that while Sewell claims 5000 cavalry
made the critical breakthrough (doesn’t explicitly state if those were turncoats or from Bahamani
side), it’s the usual suspects who claim that there were 140000 Muslim Cavalry in Vijayanagar
ranks. It’s easier to ascribe loss to Gaddaars and Foul Play than admit that your own side had
serious shortcomings.
PS: 140000 cavalry…. do you realise how fantastic this number is? Even Khilji who had the
largest standing army in medieval India (650000) didn’t have nearly as many cavalry. How
much horsefeed you need… the fog of war…. the huge number of Pages and Squires needed for
officers and cavaliers…. the horseshit you have to deal with… the stables/corrals required… the
replacement horses (Sultanate and Mughal cavalrymen were supposed to have two horses
each) required; Did the numbskull who pulled out that numer from his hat ever see an army on
the move?!
3. “Khalistan…. no religious sanction…. purely political etc etc”
A few keywords for your consideration: Nihang. Nirankari. Mazhabi. Atwal. Anandpur Sahib.
Shekhar Gupta’s infamous pic. Didar Singh Bains. AISSF. Hukamnama.
Khalistan was THE threat to India’s existence at one point…. even more than KASHMIRI
militancy. The imported goat-jockeys from Muridke and Aabpara nor their desi chelas can
never shake our very foundations like Khalistanis did.
PS: They didn’t just “smuggle arms” into the Temple as you glibly put it. They made it into a fortress with manned pillboxes (with LMGs), snipers in improvised foxholes, the network of tunnels made, huge grain stores to last a siege, the closely packed houses and shops forming perfect ambush points and murder-holes, snipers in all towers that were fully flushed out AFTER one taking pot-shots at Zail Singh etc etc.. Tohra, Badal and Longowal perfectly knew what was going on inside the Temple. Bhindranwale stayed on the same floor level (or higher) as the Granth Sahib and the terrorist radio messages broadcasted this fact (implications are clear) to draw Sikhs to the shrine and hamper military ops.
Damn! The formating got screwed up when I posted my reply. Sorry for the inconvenience!
Rishi Khujur (c/o FactUSA), Hujur (c/o VoiceofIndia) and other pod people (with a mission), here’s another Nazi era terminology to chew on: Denial is a long river in Egypt.
And here’s some pop culture references on that general note;
Jai (in Sholay) Mujhko har policewaala ka soorat ek jaisa lagta hain.
UTI-Axis Bank campaign: Bus naam badal diya… baki kuch nahin!
BTW, the anal-retentiveness you displayed while clutching on to straws and trifles says a lot about you and your POV. I also note the backing down from original “slash and burn” innuendo… Hudaybiya and Al-Taqiya, eh? 🙂
>> Somak
Interesting you mentioned Jared Diamond here. I have read it so many times and agree with a lot of what he says. Note that the Arabs were sitting on the periphery of the nexus of all those exchange centers and trade routes and diffusion points for millennia. It finally took them something like Islam and men like Umar and Khalid ibn Walid to burst out and take control of large swathes on the fecund lands of humanity.
The Wanderer wrote:
“crimson p1ss for Hindus don’t take their Seva/”Battle” into Srinagar or Baramulla or Sopore or
Siliguri instead of chasing teenaged couples in parks. Hey, Christian missionaries go deep into
Afghanistan….. why don’t we see the knickers doing the same at least inside India?!”
Rishi’s response:
You are so busy badmouthing the Hindu workers, that you miss out the massive amount of work that is done. (and more will be done if people like u support it)
-Seva Bharati international run orphanages and schools to support victims of terror in Kashmir, and Doda and Poonch.
– During 1948, it was the people like Triloki Nath Dhar, and other Hindus from Putli Dharamshala Shakha from Srinagar who sacrificed their lives in thousands to help the beleagered Indian army until reinforcements arrived. Thousands of Hindu activists gave up their lives fighting alongside Indian army in 48 and 62.
But you wont care to know much because these wont add to your repertoire of “uber cool”, comments.
Go to the North East to see what Vivekanada Kendras and BSS, have done in terror infested areas.
I agree….. a lot more, lot lot more needs to be done, But when people like you are so busy playing “demolition man”, who will do it?
@Shan : the world is full of irony dude 🙂
how about the knickerwalas voting for APJ Kalam (a muslim) as President and secular italian and commie not wanting him to continue (office of profit remember)..delicious irony ! (inconvenient muslims not welcome huh :))
or how about when the secular vultures were raping and maiming sikhs and putting burning tires around sardarji kids and the same knickerwalas coming on the Delhi street to protect them … irony huh?..
or how about when the red knickers were standing in line in front of the US embassy to get that visa approval from a gora, imperial american… delicious irony isn’t it…?
or how about the poster boy muslim tailor of english media running away from the progressive bengal and coming home to communal gujarat where according to ndtv/ibn etc, muslims are “living in fear”..
delicious irony?
pet bhar gaya ya aur delicious cheezey behju? 🙂
>> Re Sunil
“… It being the objective of the movement and its moorings in the core philosophy of the religion.”
The world’s a very cynical and imperfect place. While it’s true that the tenets of Sikhism doesn’t explicitly call for destruction of other faiths, any religion can be twisted enough to provide “sanction” to evil. Hey, General Dyer was given the keys to the temple after Jalianwala Bagh, right? And what about all those Hukamnama fatwas that started flowing in from Amritsar in the 80s and in SRC times? What about the SGPC stand on Hukamnama and it’s encompassing jurisdiction…. didn’t the Peach King himself get rapped for his stunt in the North American SGPC?
And I needn’t tell you how the Hindu social system and tenets were twisted into to create Indian Feudalism and Catse System.
Hello Wanderer
1. Regarding 9 Sikh: Your point was that it was desertion/Mutiny comparable to the desertion of the cavalry during talaikota. My point was that its is not comparable. 500 Sikhs deserting under the influence of rumours (with most of them being reinstated ) is not the same as the betrayal of the Gilani brothers who had THOUSANDS of soldiers under them.
“In spite of all these disadvantages, historians agree that the biggest reason for the defeat was the betrayal by two key Vijayanagara commanders, the Gilani brothers who had thousands of soldiers under their command. These commanders were defectors from the Adil Shahi kingdom and later employed by Aliya Rama Raya. The Gilani brothers are known to have fled the battlefield at a key juncture. This has been strongly supported by the writings of two European travellers, Frendricci and Frenchman Anquetil Du Perron who visited Vijayanagar in 1567 C.E.[6] ” – see link – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Talikota
2. Yes the Khalistanis did not have the sanction of their religion in the activities they engaged in. If they had the Sanction of their religion in the same way that the Jehadi’s have Punjab would have been lost forever. The Akalis are a political organisation no better than other parties. And although some of the Akalis were in the know about what was happening in Harmandar Sahab none had the guts to say anything for fear of Bhindranwale’s goons. Culpability of a section of the leadership wanting to benefit from the seccession does not convert to culpability of the religion especially considering the fact that the massess rejected the concept of Khalistan unlike in Kashmir, Pakistan and Bangladesh.. And yes it is easy to get ammunition in to the Harmandar Sahib. It was done again inspite of high vigilance just before Operation Black Thunder.
3. No the imported goat Jockey have shaken the confidence of this country for 20 years. They have kept the fourth largest Army in the world engagaed in conflict for 15 years. Punjab was taken care of by the Punjab Police under Gill, Kashmir has frustrated the efforts of every regiment, unit, batallion, company, in the Army – All thanks to the ideology that drives them and the local people who help them and a Government that ties the Army’s hands.
4. No I am not forgetting the Shamsher bahadurs (who was half Hindu and Baji raos son) and the Ibrahim Gardis but neither do I want you to forget the Ghaznis, Ghauris, Khaljis, Malik Kafurs, Aurangzebs. The actions of a minority cannot be used to whitewash the havoc wreaked by the majority of the Islamic leadership just like the actions of a few Beant and Satwant Singhs cannot be used to malign the contributions of the many Gobind’s, Teg Bahadur’s, Banda Bahadur’s and Ranjit’s.
Thanks
Sunil.
Hello Wanderer,
Can you please elucidate on the “sanction to evil” part. i did not understand what you are trying to say?
Thanks
Sunil.
Re Khujur
>> Sewa Bharati runs orphanages….
Correction Khujur…. Seva Bharati has a major branches in Jammu, not Kashmir AFAIK. The only work they do in Kashmir is related to the Earthquake relief.
Anyway, I asked if RSS et all were doing it’s sustained ops in the viper’s nest that is Kashmir Valley (or NE hotspots)…. you know Drill/Road Marches/Speeches/Songs/Gili-Danda/Readings from the tomes and the works. Do they provide protection to hamlets or enroll in VDCs? Are volunteers from other parts of India asked to do field work in the valley? Do they run schools for Kashmiri Hindu migrants in Jammu? There are many who want to go to safe old UP for Kar Seva etc but nobody seems interested to go to the war-zones away from the comfy Cow Belts.
All we hear is the bitter infighting in the (now pitifully small) RSS led organizations of Jammu towns. The only signs of life one can see are the volunteers in the Vaishno Devi route…. a far cry from the Doda tamasha nearly 2 decades ago.
>>During 1948, it was the people like Triloki Nath Dhar, and other Hindus from Putli Dharamshala Shakha from Srinagar who sacrificed their lives in thousands to help the beleagered Indian army until reinforcements arrived. Thousands of Hindu activists gave up their lives fighting alongside Indian army in 48 and 62.
Gave their lives in the thousands, eh?
Where? Defense of Srinagar or the Uri-Punch-Mirpur line? Have you incorporated (sneaked in) Kashmir Forces personal into your army of Sanghwaffen this time? 😀 Seriously, can you provide me sources which speak of RSS-HM types who formed civil militia and held out till the cavalry arrived? BTW, what did they held out with? I honestly want to know!
@ The Wanderer
Ok here is where you obfuscations comes out.
Seva Bharati serves orphans from the Kashmir Valley, Doda and Poonch, but has to keep them in Jammu.
One one hand people like you will cry will cry wolf anytime we hold a lathi..then how do u expect us to run a orphanage in Srinagar, or Sopore, or Baramulla, without arming ourselves?
You will be the first to shout “murderer” if we even go as far as arming ourselves to protect those orphanages in jihad infested areas. Are you willing to fund 20 volunteers, I promise you I will open a orphanage in Lal Chowk, Srinagar
Your comment about Triloki Nath Dhar and the 1948 war shows how little you can do when things dont show up on “google”.
These Hindu volunteers of the Putli Dharamshalla Shakha i mentioned above hailed from Srinagar but a few came from places as far as Sehyar, Rehbaba Sahib and Rishipeer. They travelled to Shalteing about four miles down the road from Chhatabal Custom Post, travelling through Pattan all the way to Sopore before going to Baramulla and back to Srinagar.
I have detalied accounts of some of the survivors who were interviewed.
Dont try google-ing it..you wont go too far.
All I can say, I am enjoying every piece of see-saw epic debate. Lots to learn. Lots to introspect. Thank you GB for allowing this.
@Rishi_khujur and Hujur- I am in Mumbai. How can I help you in your efforts? I am very interested.
GB,
I am tool late, but, Bravo.
>> Re Sunil.
1. There it goes again, safety in numbers. There are other sources which say the battle swung after the Bahmani Arty mowed down the poorly armored Vijayanagar infantry with grapeshot made of copper coins. What the 2 Cavalry legions did was to cut off the Vijayanagar Centre.
BTW, 9 Sikh was summarily disbanded and all participants discharged dishonorably. I dunno where you got the idea that “500 men were reinstated”. They don’t let mutineers go with 2 weeks of stockade and restrictions…. never.
2. Op Black Thunder was a cakewalk compared to Op Blue Star. Fighting a bunch of terrorists armed with submachine guns and Czech built assault rifles is way different from fighting brigade sized foes (led by a former General) armed with anti-armor weapons, RPGs, reinforced pillboxes, LMGs and sniper rifles.
The SAD never ran the show…. it was the SGPC and prominent Priests from landed Jat Sikh families that twisted Sikhism, just like the Ulema and the Rais have a stranglehold over Islam. It was stern (though belated) action that blocked moves towards total fundamentalism…. which they sure wanted to (with a slew of new Hukumnamas and visiting bigwigs from Canada and US).
On the note of “masses rejecting”, note that the ML was wiped out from present day Pakistan/bangladesh in the 1937 elections. It took them three years to raise up “Pakistan” less than a decade to get that piece of real estate. They didn’t raise Islamic tenets of Dar-ul-Islam/Dar ul Harb to get their Pakistan…. they used “Islam Khatre Mein He (from Hindus and Sikhs)”. Guess what, the SGPC and Bhindranwale was doing the same. Left unchecked they surely would have yanked out a new version of the Granth Sahib/charter which calls for KulturKampf and Deathmatch. The same thing happeend with the Maronites and Muslims of Lebannon too….
3. Plain canard, my friend. There are 100,000 Indian soldiers in J&K (14, 15, 16 Corps plus the RR regiments, most of the strength belonging to the infantry heavy 16 Corps at Nagrota)…. rest are cops, paramilitary, BRO and BSF (another 200,000). The “conflict” lasted from 1989-1995 (Op Sadhbhavana), after that it was just an irritating slug fest which we could do nothing about short of crossing in strength into Shakargarh. BTW, I thought only Pakis made comments like 700000 Indian troops in Kashmir! Please don’t make this gaffe anywhere else. Note that we are facing a whole military district of China, which has nodes along the Tibetan Highway too. The grunts there ain’t fighting 3000 something terrorists.
If a bunch of criminals, unemployed youth or hopelessly brainwashed louts from Pakistan and flotsam from Afghanistan have “shaken your confidence”, well…… 🙂
4. Oh dear, here we go again! Who’s whitewashing whom?
BTW, majority of the Islamic rulers wear despicable monsters? Sure, if you claim political/imperial campaigns against Hindu kingdoms (who happened to be there) is a manifestation of religious bigotry. Back to square one.
Re Khujur Mian
>>Your comment about Triloki Nath Dhar and the 1948 war shows how little you can do when things dont show up on “google”.
These Hindu volunteers of the Putli Dharamshalla Shakha i mentioned above hailed from Srinagar but a few came from places as far as Sehyar, Rehbaba Sahib and Rishipeer. They travelled to Shalteing about four
miles down the road from Chhatabal Custom Post, travelling through Pattan all the way to Sopore before going to Baramulla and back to Srinagar.
I have detalied accounts of some of the survivors who were interviewed.
Don’t burst an artery man…. I have read many accounts of the First Kashmir War but I have never heard of this Triloki Nath Dhar or the Sanghwaffen who travelled to Shalteing and travelled again to Pattan to Sopore before going back to Srinagar. What exactly did these people do? Which battle? Care to point us a source, a book, journal ‘coz I couldn’t find it on googling. NOT. 😀 LOL!
Check out this link, dear friends : http://kashmiris-in-exile.blogspot.com/2007/11/eyewitness-account-of-1947-raid-by.html
It is an endearing account, quite brave of them too. But there was no “fighting invaders and sanghwaffen “dying by the thousands” as Khujurji claimed. Many Hindus were butchered, but except “traveling” and “going” and “getting out” there seemed to be little Action. See guys why I say these types are good at Perjury and Propagandu?
PS: My grandpa was in Military Intelligence for 40 yrs (spent 12 years in those parts) , he was there even before the transports landed in Srinagar airfield. Too bad he still won’t disclose to me “covert ops” and other stuff…..
PPS: Are these the detailed interviews you have, Khujurji? If there’s more pleej share with us untermenschen
>> Above link
Please do a string search of “four miles”, “Shalteing” etc in that post folks….. it will show you what this Khujur, he who holds secret tomes which don’t show up on google, really is.
PS: Do you get the “NOT! 😀 LOL!” googly, Khujur-Mian?
I have a nagging feeling you wouldn’t “get it” or ever saw “Borat: Cultural Leanings of America for Make benefit Glorious Kazhak Nation”. 🙂
Hello Wanderer,
1. I did not say that 500 men were reinstated, I said 500 men mutinied. 1 battalion has approx 500 men. Re Vijaynagar: I have quoted a source openly available on the net and yet you question its veracity. Can you back up your assertion of only 5000 cavalry please lest people bring out the straw man fallacy against you.
2. Do you mean to say that the SGPC has disbanded the Sikhi khatre mein hai routine now. As the saccha sauda demonstration proved the sikhi khatre mein hai banner is still fluttering. I have also attended meetings in UK where “Sikhi Khatre mein hai” is bandied about with gay abandon by narrow minded leaders. Its just that Sikhism is a liberal religion that allows people to think on their own and does not indoctrinate them like Islam. This allows Sikhs to reject the “khatre mein hai” rhetoric like they rejected the Khalistaanis in the 80s. There is a difference between the Granth Sahib and the Quran. There is no charter in the Granth Sahib that preaches violence. Most of the Violence (note: violence means bloodshed, not killing someone whose God is different) in Sikhism comes from the Dasam Granth written by Guru Gobind and many Sikhs doubt the authenticity of the Dasam Granth. Therefore its not easy to motivate Sikhs by pulling out charters from scripts. Many Sikhs dont even believe in the rehat maryada that the SGPC flaunts (Even Khushwant Singh does not believe in the Maryada). There are some religions that are inherently designed for violence and bloodshed and subjugation and Sikhi is not one of them. This is exactly why The Khalistan Movement did not survive besides the fact that most of the Khalistaanis were Hardened Criminals out to make a quick buck unlike the Religiously Motivated Jehaadis.
3.My friend it is not an irritating slugfest that the Army is facing in Kashmir. The conflict due to its unending nature, local support, apathetic government has severely affected morale. Many Top generals have admitted that the Army is not fit for such combat and that it should be withdrawn and a political process be introduced (this was last said By JJ Singh I think). By your admission 3000 “criminals” have tied down 300000 Indian Troops. We never faced something like this in Punjab. I do not belive the Pakistani claims of a million troops in kashmir, but rising fratricide and other news (jawans insisting on following the officers in to offensive, High officer casualties, 20,000 officers short, officers not wearing epaulets for fear of being targeted )tell me that the Army is under significant Pressure. You can of course choose to call this a slugfest with irritating goat jockeys.
4.Yes majority of the islamic rulers were despicable monsters but not because they attacked Hindu rulers who happeend to be there but because of what they did after they won. Because of Jiziya, because of incentives to convert, because of exploitation of non muslims, because of demolition of temples, because of intolerance of any ideology not in line with theirs.
Thanks
Sunil.
dude wanderer when you die don’t forget to leave chunk of your property for google… u owe them big man..
u really know how to milk it… phukat hai toh dho lo … 🙂
>>Re Sunil:
A Battalion has, FYI, 4 rifle companies (Coys) with 125 men each. That makes 500 riflemen with NCOs and officers. But it has other wings like Admin Coy, Support & Logistic Coy, Battalion HQ and other auxiliaries not to mention special Mil Pol/Contractor/Observer wings that are attached. They all total to 900-1100 men. Get your facts right.
The 5000 horsemen source is Robert Sewell himself. Why don’t you read the whole e-text on Project Gutenberg.
Whoa, you said the “many of the (500) men were reinstated” in an earlier posts dude! So I guess that 5 brownie points for anal-retentiveness. FYI, all 1035 men did revolt… killed the C.O. and a cpl of officers too. I am surprised they weren’t decimated by lots.
PS: On that note of mutiny, please check out the etymology of the phrase “facing the music”.
My source was not the link that you gave but a set of interviews which included the one given by Mr Dhar.
The same interview has also been posted in the “Kashmir in exile” blog.
Also thanks for atleast acknowledging the role played by young Hindus during those tumultous days in Kashmir.
I would greatly appreciate you commenting on how we can open more orphanages in Srinagar .
here i re-quote myself.
“Seva Bharati serves orphans from the Kashmir Valley, Doda and Poonch, but has to keep them in Jammu.
One one hand people like you will cry will cry wolf anytime we hold a lathi..then how do u expect us to run a orphanage in Srinagar, or Sopore, or Baramulla, without arming ourselves?
You will be the first to shout “murderer” if we even go as far as arming ourselves to protect those orphanages in jihad infested areas. Are you willing to fund 20 volunteers, I promise you I will open a orphanage in Lal Chowk, Srinagar”.
Hello Wanderer
Interesting Link. I read some passages that might be of interest to you.
1. “Most of the Muslim units of J& K Army comprising of Mirpuri deserted and joined the invaders after killing their Hindu and Sikh Officers.”
2. “The Pakistani invaders entered Baramula on October 26, 1947 and proceeded to indulge in Rape, murder, loot and arson, especially targeting Sikhs and Kashmiri Pandit community”
3. “Most of the Hindu leadership had left the valley for Jammu. As the Kashmiri Pandits trickled in from the countryside we began to hear the tales of atrocities, plunder, rape and murder of innocent Hindus and Sikhs by the Pakistani invaders.”
4. “A Muslim boy told us that we should go and see what had happened there. Visiting the Grove was most horrendous and traumatizing experience as we saw pieces of Indian currency notes and human skeletons scattered in the area. The boy told us that Sikh adults had killed their women and children here to ensure they did not fall in the hands of these heartless and treacherous Paksitani’s. Dazed we turned and left toward Sopore. We had walked about 200 yards we found a Kacha road to the left leading us to a Seer (Hindu Shrine). There we found a Mullah was teaching Quran to two Pandit women who were dressed in a Burka. As the Mullah saw us he took to his heels as we began chanting “Har Har Mahadev”, the women retracted and threw their Burkas. ”
5. “The shrine in Seer was reduced to heap of rubble and two Muslim men were pulling out the nails from the burnt wooden planks. The worse was still to come. We saw couple of KP’s men and women coming towards us all in tears, and crying. They told us that the local Muslims had invited two Pakistani Kabailies from Baramula and all our brethren had been asked to assemble in the ground near a mosque where a calf was slaughtered in their presence. Pieces of raw beef were forced down their throat and abuses were heaped. Their houses were looted-clean sweep, even the doors and window frames were pulled out”
6. “We reached Baramula in the evening and came across a young Kashmiri Pandit who was a lecturer of English in the Govt. College there. He offered us to stay overnight which we did. His house was also looted as mentioned earlier. He told us how his beautiful wife and other young KP ladies had been locked in a house and gang raped by the Muslim invaders. Next day he showed us the house from which these women had jumped to death from the fourth story. During the talk he told us that one respectable couple in the town was dragged through the streets.”
7. “Crossing the bridge to the other side where market and Govt. offices were housed, we were shown a spot in the middle of the bridge from where young Hindu-Pandit, Sikh and Khatri ladies plunged to their death by drowning into the river. Those who did not have a chance to kill themselves were herded into Tehsil compound and gang raped. All Hindu shops were looted in totality. We finally went to the Christian School and found that even the Nuns were not spared. Many had been raped before being murdered.”
8. “At that point the Army Commander advised us to retrun to Srinagar as Baramula was still not safe for Hindus and Sikhs. It was clear that 30,000 Hindus men and women ( Pandit, Sikh and Kahtri) had either lost their lives or were taken as sex slaves by the Pakistani invaders”
I assume you are going to say that “Sure, if you claim political/imperial campaigns against Hindu kingdoms (who happened to be there) is a manifestation of religious bigotry.”
By the way did something like this happen in Punjab too?
Thanks
Sunil.
Sunil, ever been to Kashmir? Ever seen the jungles of Baramulla? The thousand something Gullies and Nullahs and the razor-sharp peaks is a logistical and ops nightmare! Unlike we glib, fat-assed civilians suffering from verbal diarrhea the men on the grid have to make sure nothing is left to chance. Every nullah is waded, ever thicket searched, every inaccessible peak seared by TIKs, every inch of deep forest checked by LRRPs. See what happened when they tried to cut corners in Kargil peaks? K.P.S. Gill has explicitly said that it was the absence of natural cover and relative difficulty in escaping to Pakistan that hampered them the most….. it is also why the training to terrorists was imparted in Jammu.
And hadn’t I made myself clear? The 14 Corps deal with CHINA…. Not Pakistan. The rest of the frontline troops and the paramilitary have to deal with a large, inhospitable area. It’s not the 3000 terrorists IN Kashmir that calls for such a concentration of forces….. it is the possible linkup of the two Chinese PLA divisions and the Pakstani FCNA…. or the 300000 screaming Jehadis aided by regular FCNA a-la 1965. The external Threat Matrix calls for such concentration….. and not the internal scenario.
The army is not meant to act as cops or jailers….. but till now we had no COIN trained forces to deal with the threat and hence the army deployment in COIN/police duty. But now with our 7 RR regiments and new batches from Vairengete, situation has changed. Why do you think the Leh Corps was split off and the 15 Corps reduced in strength only after 1995? Why do you think Netas and Generals are talking about phased removal of troops NOW?
Face it, rejoice…… the worst in kashmir insurgency is over. Short of M-11 massive strikes on HQs, we are peachy. If you still want to hold on to “Muzzies are here!” spectre, be my guest!
@ Sunil:
lol
Looks like “The Wanderer” earned himself more trouble than relief, by googling too hard and digging up the “Kashmir in Exile” blog for everyone to see.
Keep it up wanderer…and please please please..stop using Nazi terminology when talking to me.
Hello Rishi,
Yes its nice of him to spend half a day constructing an argument and then demolishing it himself. Wanderer Janaab aapka bahut bahut shukriya.
Khuda Hafiz.
Sunil.
Oh Khujur Ji…. nice soft-landing attempt try after all that chest-thumpin’ on thousands of Sanghwaffen fighting the Raiders to death. 🙂 Cat always lands on it’s feet and all that, eh?
BTW, you have ably displayed the Strawman Argument with this nugget: “You will be the first to shout “murderer” if we even go as far as arming ourselves to protect those orphanages in jihad infested areas.”
🙂
And on that kind offer to fund 20 volunteers….. the coffers of the Sangh must be teeming with funds (hey, Gujarat is yours!) and there are thousands of hardcore SSanghis shaking their booty every morning in that ridiculous Daisy-Dukes. Should you really shakedown a poor 26 year old techie like me for such a mission? Are RSS-type volunteers, men supposedly like you are, to such spots so hard to come by in this Halcyon Age of the Sangh?
PS: Gotta sleep now, I got a little day job and that too involves a lot of snowing & bullshit and 180-degree shift to finding bullshit (in other assignments). This tennis game here’s some Busman’s Holiday for Moi, eh?!
Sunil, ever been to Kashmir? Ever seen the jungles of Baramulla? The thousand something Gullies and Nullahs and the razor-sharp peaks is a logistical and ops nightmare! Unlike we glib, fat-assed civilians suffering from verbal diarrhea the men on the grid have to make sure nothing is left to chance. Every nullah is waded, ever thicket searched, every inaccessible peak seared by TIKs, every inch of deep forest checked by LRRPs. See what happened when they tried to cut corners in Kargil peaks? K.P.S. Gill has explicitly said that it was the absence of natural cover and relative difficulty in escaping to Pakistan that hampered them the most….. it is also why the training to terrorists was imparted in Jammu.
And hadn’t I made myself clear? The 14 Corps deal with CHINA…. Not Pakistan. The rest of the frontline troops and the paramilitary have to deal with a large, inhospitable area. It’s not the 3000 terrorists IN Kashmir that calls for such a concentration of forces….. it is the possible linkup of the two Chinese PLA divisions and the Pakstani FCNA…. or the 300000 screaming Jehadis aided by regular FCNA a-la 1965. The external Threat Matrix calls for such concentration….. and not the internal scenario.
The army is not meant to act as cops or jailers….. but till now we had no COIN trained forces to deal with the threat and hence the army deployment in COIN/police duty. But now with our 7 RR regiments and new batches from Vairengete, situation has changed. Why do you think the Leh Corps was split off and the 15 Corps reduced in strength only after 1995? Why do you think Netas and Generals are talking about phased removal of troops NOW?
Face it, rejoice…… the worst in kashmir insurgency is over. Short of M-11 massive strikes on HQs, we are peachy. If you still want to hold on to “Muzzies are here!” spectre, be my guest!
>> Re Sunil-Khujur duet team
Sighhhh, pat yourselves in the back and declare “Victory for Hinduism and her Champions” for all I care. Everything is online for all to see…. let the readers judge what has been “constructed” and what’s been “demolished” 🙂
>> Re Sunil
I’ll pen my thoughts and response to your Khalistan comment and observations from the Pandit link tomorrow.
‘night!
@ The Wanderer:
Well, all you have to do is read “Kashmir: The Storm Center of The World” by Balraj Madhok, another eyewitness and Hindu voluteer in the 48 conflict. Also, I will be glad to send you the other interivews to a email address of your choice. Or you and other readers can continue reading “Kashmir in Exile” where they will show up over a period of time.
The Sangh is not as rich as you think (unfortunately). Volunteers working for Seva Bharati orphanages in Kashmir will certainly benefit from your contributions, however little they are.
Dont shy away after giving such huge lectures.
@ Sunul:
yeah..I also didnt know that the interview was posted on the “Kashmir in Exile” blog.
Wanderer was so excited to find my reference online, that he ended up exposing his audience to a whole new set of facts completely contrary to what he has been babbling about for the last 2 days.
I hope he finds peace in his sleep.
Hello Wanderer,
Please take your time. Also please refrain from creating imaginary teams and assigning objectives and targets to them. You can disagree with what I say but please dont ascribe motives to my posts based on your prejudices and hatred.
“Hum uff bhi karte hain to ho jaate hain badnaam,
wo qatl bhi karte hain aur charcha nahin hota”
I dont want to play this game of name calling (Champion of Hinduism, fundooo etc etc) with you. Please keep this in mind.
Thanks
Sunil.
It’s amazing that the likes of Khujur persist even after getting their asses whipped. Fraudulent quotations, innuendo and plain lies, when exposed, are just waved away with nonchalance.
@Khujur: “I never quoted Robert Sewell nor did I claim it anywhere.
Please read my comments and tell me where Rishi Khujur quotes Robert Sewell.”
@Khujur earlier:
“Here is an excerpt from the first chapter of the Robert Sewell book, quoting Portuguese and Persian envoys.
Excerpt:
A Forgotten Empire: Vijayanagar
CHAPTER 1
Introduction
”
Three enormous cut-and-paste jobs follow.
Umm…am I missing something here?
Also, the regularity with which the Khujur guy asks readers to go through his old posts is really grating on the nerves…don’t you think you should start your own blog to spew your vitriol?
But why am I and the rest of us giving this guy so much attention? It’s obviously what he craves.
@ Wanderer:
Dont make me plunge my “panzerfaust” up you “hinteren ende”…
gutten nacht….lol
@ Melissa
Dear Melissa…IT WAS HUJUR..NOT KHUJUR WHO QUOTED ROBERT SEWELL.. and that too he did not misquote him..hujur just forgot to give references to 2 quotes.
Please please read the original comments and not just cut-paste from what wanderer wrote. Shan and Sayon and WTF followed Wanderer’s misquote and ended up with egg on their face.
I know you will lie and all because you dont seem to have much knwoledge. But dont repeat someone else’s lie twice.
If nothing else..let this be a fair debate.
Just a thought guys. And i am guilty of moving away from the topic and so have been a lot of others here.
But have you thought that less than 3 decades ago such passionate debates were taking place between Congress-ies and Commies. Probably much more heated. Today Congress and Commies are on the same side to fight the “bigger enemey” the hindu fundamentalist BJP.
But just take this example – in mid 70’s to counter the Communists in unionised Mumbai the Congress created a monster called Bal Thackrey. He was created to counter Datta Samant a powerful union leader.
In this great indian politcal drama, for the Congress at that time Communism was a bigger threat. And then when Congress became too powerful with RG winning 484 seats this time it was the time of knickers and red knickers to come together on the same side. And they formed a govt under VP singh against the Congress.
Then when BJP became more powerful the commies and congress came together.
This is the great merry go round of Indian politics.
If lets say China really becomes a huge power in next 2 decades (which is a likely scenario). It will obviously have a huge influence over indian sub continent. It will be able to influence elections and may even be able to propel a proxy government (meaning a commie govt). At that time what will happpen? Yes you guessed it right, the “secular” congress and the “communal” BJP will come together.
Even if this sounds hypothetical, you cannot rule this out. A powerful China means a powerful CPI(m) and which means more space for indian commies in the indian political scene. Which will make other forces uncomfortable. Most political outfits in india are ok with commies restricted to keral,w.bengal. But the moment they grow strong Congres, BJP, Naidus and Jayas and Mulayams (of that time of course) will become jittery.
Point is, nothing is constant. We cannot say with certainty what happened 500 or 1000 years back or how hindu kingdoms lost to external forces.
But we can say for sure that political realignments during that period had lot to do with who was winning and who was loosing.
There were fights between the muslim kingdoms in india amongst themselves as was the case with hindu kingdoms. Shivaji at one point had a Muslim sardar leading his army and Aurnagzeb had Hindu commanders.
It’s really about realignments. Today it may be a case that “Hindu Fundoos” are being bashed by a combination of forces who percieve them as more dangerous than say Taliban or China. And hence they are going all out. Hindu forces may become weak or come out stronger, after this relentless attack – that is anyone’s guess.
If it comes out weaker over say next few years, then the fight would start between commies and congress (taking into account the china factor) but if it comes out stronger than the alignment will stick till it’s dislodged.
Hello Wanderer,
Please take your time. Also Please dont create imaginary teams and ascribe motives to them. I do not want to get in to a name calling competition with you (champion of hinduism, fundoo etc). Please dont allow your hatred and prejudice to judge me or my posts and assign objectives to them. If you disagree please argue but keep it civilised. Regarding my conversation with Rishi on your gaffe:
“Hum uff bhi karte hain to ho jaate hain badnaam,
aap katl bhi karte hain aur charcha nahin hota”
shabba khair
Sunil
@ Sunil:
Actually, their (Wanderer and his newfound tagalongs) angst was agaisnt Rishi, as I was carrying the debate.
So when Hujur forgot to mention his source, they quickly used that to attack Rishi.
The funniest thing is that Sayon (about whom I still carry a much more positive opinion goign by a very nic debate we had over emails), Shan (he has discredited himself a few times before) and WTF (he is just a passionate person like me) jumped onto the bandwagon in a jiffy.
As for Melissa, he /she, i think doesnt care or understand much, and is only going to badmouth any Hindu revivalist under any name possible (by his/her own admittance, Pakele thakele is another of her/his ids)
Hello Wanderer,
1. I said about 500 soldiers from the 9th Sikh Mutinied and many of them were reinstated. On the number:
“About 500 soldiers belonging to the 9th Battalion of the Sikh Regiment stationed at Ganganagar (Rajasthan) mutiny upon hearing reports about Operation Bluestar. Smaller revolts involving Sikh soldiers are reported at Ramgarh (Bihar), Alwar (Rajasthan) Jammu, Thane and Pune (both in Maharashtra). Mutineers at Ramgarh shoot and kill their commander, Brigadier S.C. Puri.” – http://www.sikhtimes.com/sikhism_timeline.html
2. On many being reinstated – I got this from a friend in the army who said many of the Sikhs were taken back.
Now that we have cleared the anal retentiveness you accuse me of, can you please reveal your sources.
Thanks
Sunil
P.S: Please refrain from using inappropriate language on this forum. It dilutes your argument.
@ Sunil:
Aactually, since Rishi Khujur was carrying the debate against The Wanderer and others, the moment Hujur forgot to mention 2 of his sources, they lathched onto it to attack Rishi Khujur.
I think Wanderer probably didnt make the mistake intentionally, but such is the predicament of Sayon, Shan and WTF that they responded like they have found the ever elusive silver lining.
And Melissa uses the misquote from Wanderer, RE-POSTS IT and re-enacts the same mistake AGAIN.
🙂
Hello Wanderer,
On the number of mutineers at Talikota, I think there has been a miscommunication. I was under the impression that you were claiming only 5000 Cavalry mutinied and comparing it to the mutiny of the 9th Sikh. It turns out however that Sewell does not write of any mutiny during Talikota. Hence this debate is a case of my source Vs Yours. Mine being the Wiki Article that quotes 2 French authors and yours being Sewell’s book.
Thanks.
Sunil.
@khujur: “Dont make me plunge my “panzerfaust” up you “hinteren ende”…
gutten nacht….lol”
My ‘Rediff-isation’ statement stands vindicated.
Congratulations, khujur/hujur/Supreme Pracharak/Saffron Glory Recruiter-at-Large.
You have finally managed to plumb the depths that you’ve been trying to reach for so long.
As for sensible discussion, well, another one bites the dust, thanks to your efforts.
Shubs:
Oh boy did u even read The wanderer’s comment…Germania was all over for 2 days. I respond back in 2 lines and you cry so bad?
Anyway…
@Rishi Khujur: No my dear friend – I do not jump at the silver lining, though I did get confused with the Khujur/ Hujur thing and in the shock of discovering a very sneaky trick (no mate, I doubt it was unintentional), forgot to double-check who it was.
I broke my self-imposed exile from commenting on this topic because of your formal coming out of the closet and declaring that your main intension is to get people to join you in your mission.
Now, I did enjoy discussing Hindu-Muslim issues with you, though I’ll admit that your level of hate makes my skin crawl. I stuck to it because (a) some of your grievances, about treatment of Hindus in Bangladesh and Bangladeshi infiltration, are real and (b) you appear to have a level of erudition lacking in some of the hate-mongers who I’ve crossed swords with. I’ll even tolerate your rants, as long as you are honest about your sources, because there is always something to learn from scholars, even if only by refuting arguments.
But what I cannot abide are prosylators. I hated the prosylating padres in my youth, many prosylating muslims I have met, the prosylating vegetarians and even the prosylating pseudo-liberals who give liberals a bad name. No mate – as long as you are willing to discuss viewpoints with a respect for other viewpoints, you are tolerable. As a prosylator you attack my right to chose what I think.
Sorry, but I have a consistant prescription for such people. Plantago ovata husk (3 Tsp, taken in warm water at bedtime). Further discussion with you is pointless.
@ Sayon
very good response..now this is the real u I knew.
I never hid the fact that I was looking for help in the projects me and many of my friends work on. You should have come out of your self imposed exile a long time back if that is the reason.
But true, my goal is still Bengal and Bangladesh and that is where I would really prefer to focus my argument and initiatives. (Which I have done for the most part of 5 months that I have written here.
And Sayon, I am no proselytizer nor do I wnat to force anyone to think anyone way. I just put what i know on the table and expect the same from others, which is how it worked for the msot part, before people started speaking in German.
@ Kannan:
Thanks for your offer. Write to me at rishi_khujur@rediffmail.com.
Appreciate your offer to help.
A pat on the back Sayon…from the MAN himself! Maybe even I should throw in a line or two about how knowledgeable and articulate he is. An endorsement from Pracharakji would make my life complete…:-)
@ Shubs
Playing a Remora, is I guess the max you can muster 🙂
@Rishi: Oh what a clever turn of phrase, Pracharakji! Tell me, do you google full-time or are you just out of work?
looks like the forum has now converted from hindu bashing to rishi bashing…
now the secular janta would say this is all an RSS ploy… or may be rishi’s ploy who knows ?
http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/53309/i-saw-tytler-egging-on-the-mob-to-murder-sikhs.html
@annon: The ‘forum’ you refer to was a forum before Pracharakji and cohorts, and fanboys like you, hijacked it. But then, what’s new? Your Guruji’s getting orgasms with all this attention, as he does, everytime, on all posts, going on and on and on with his diatribes against everybody he disagrees with. And that list seems to be growing everyday.
Do we need to keep tolerating his increasingly nonsensical rants?
Do YOU even remember what this post was about?
When did a discussion about today’s West Bengal turn into Muslim bashing, followed by endless bs about a battle 700 years ago? And why? What’s the point?
How does it matter to you TODAY if two legions of cavalry defected this way or that in a battle 700 years ago??? What are you guys trying to prove here? I’m not a student of history. I don’t know the minute details of ancient kingdoms in Southern India. And frankly, apart from accumulating general knowledge, I don’t care.
But it doesn’t take much to recognize glib-talking bigots in the garb of intellectuals when you come across them. People whose sole purpose in life is to ram their version of events, their version of morality, their entire frigging black and white world down the throats of others, who upto that point quietly indulge them out of politeness or in the interests of free speech.
So, yeah, khujur bashing it is. It needs to be. If you don’t respond to chicken hawks like khujur in their own coin, they, like their mullah counterparts across our wastern border, take silence and inaction for weakness.
@ Shubs
My first comments were on Taslima and the equations in Nandigram and Kolkata. But I am sure you were not reading at that time. What vitriol u carry against me 🙂
@rishi_khujur:
Yeah, all you need is a small opening and you drive your truck of hatred right through it. Then again, this is not the first time that you have twisted a debate beyond recognition, gone off on a tangent of your own personal agenda, mixing hyper aggresiveness with fear mongering, half-truths, innuendo and outright lies. These are the weapons of your pseudo-intellectualism.
“What vitriol u carry against me”
Well, who better than you to comment on vitriol!
“These are the weapons of your pseudo-intellectualism. ”
Besides Google, of course…
Whatever would you couch warriors do without this indispensable fountain of all your ‘knowledge’…:-)
Dear Shubs,
Kindly keep your personal attacks on Rishi to yourself. I have been following the discussions in this blog and all I see is whereas Rishi always sticks to valid sources and arguments you and your cohorts eventually go for personal attacks to evade Rishi’s logically places arguments.
It does not take an admirer of Hindutva or RSS to see that; just reading of the coommments (in all of GB’s post ) one after another.
J
Rishi Khujur’s analysis is incisive and to the point. Please keep up the good work. I saw your email address and I will contact you separately.
Fellow Bengalis, Please visit and sign the following link on Taslima Nasreen:
http://www.petitiononline.com/eiw2007/petition.html
Regards,
Mouli Ghosh
Oh look, Hujur’s got fans!
Here’s a (typical) comment from the Khujur:
”
bewildered wrote:
“I failed to understand how a purely socio-political movement of the residents and land owners of Nandigram was highjacked by the crude fundementalist cry for crucifying Taslima Nasreen”.
Rishi’s response:
Were you “bewildered” when innocent Hindus were killed by rioting Muslims in Maharashtra, because…….Saddam Hussain was being hung in Iraq.
Were you “bewildered” when thousands of Hindus were murdered in Dhaka (1964), because…..some relic was lost at Hazratbal in Kashmir.
Were you “bewildered” when Hindu temples were destroyed by Muslim mobs in Malaysia, because….US troops were searching for Osama in Afghanistan.
All this may seem completely unrelated to the Nandigram land dispute protest transforming itself into a “ailaan” for Islam against Taslima and those who host her. But the day you and others like you start to realize how closely related each of these events are and the thought process of those prepetrating them, works; you will only be “bewildered” by the accuracy with which you can almost predict them.
”
————————————————
This is a case study on the crookedness and twisted logic used by our man over and over again, ever so subtly, almost imperceptible to the casual reader.
Notice how an innocent statement is taken, shredded and its logic stretched beyond recognition. Completely unrelated events (relatively current in this example, but can be more than 700 years old, as we found out, unfortunately) are smoothly introduced into the discussion. A connection is slyly made between those events and Nandigram. A back-handed admission is also there at the end that these events are unrelated, but with a caustic rider, that if you, the reader, do not see the ‘obvious’ connection (the deviousness of Muslims and Islam), then you’re ignorant.
Now someone has to just dispute the accuracy of the accounts of one of the many random historical events provided, and the Khujur has achieved his objective. For he likes nothing better than to take off on that tangent.
For example, here if I were to question the thousands of Hindus murdered in Dhaka for the Hazratbal incident, he would take on my knowledge of affairs, my patriotism, my ‘left liberal’ leanings, and he would cut and paste enormous obscure pieces of text from ihateislam.com. His cohorts would join in, and of course, after twenty more back-and-forth posts filled with all sorts of sinister insinuations, who would even care to remember the Nandigram issue?
How many scores of times have we seen that happen on GB’s blog, all involving this one single person?
This is what we’re dealing with here, dear James. I think you’ve been too taken in by our man’s carefully crafted image of scholarship.
@ Shubs
Please man…. I am Rishi Khujur. Not Hujur…
confirm with Arnab if you are so apprehensive.
@rishi_khujur:
Pal, I don’t keep track of your alter egos.
@ the wanderer:
comparison to nazis is such an abused concept that it is considered a logic fallacy. the knickers have never done anything remotely as horrific as their full pant counterparts in Germany.
the only thing to be said is that you do so in such a funny way that it makes great reading. but -2 for ad hominem attack.
@ rishi:
id like to think that ive stayed above personal attack (i stopped attributing your views as right wing because you didnt like it). neither did i mistake you misquoting sewell. since you like such precision in attribution of statements please leave me out of your song and dance about the confusion between khujur and hujur.
Hello Rishi,
Yes I saw how everbody jumped on to the “Khujur does not cite sources and so is an evil pracharak” bandwagon inspite of the comment coming from Hujur. But anyway, I would like to commend you again on the way you have disproved them without losing composure.
Thanks
Sunil.
This is what I have been saying all along. The Fundie trio (now with added orgasmic groupies like Sunil, James, Mouli, Kannan et al) hijack each and every post written by Arnab in order to push their fundamentalist agenda and spew vitriol against Muslims.
They are easy to parody, as I did in an earlier post and now, thanks to Wanderer, open to charges of chicanery.
What they have done is drive many normal readers totally up the wall to the extent that I have friends who have stopped reading the comments section once they encounter Hujur/Khujur post because they know that it will all go downhill from there.
Some of us persevere because we still like Arnab and his blog. Arnab has repeatedly mentioned that he supports the freedom of expression and thus does usually not edit any comment. I support him fully in that. However, the fundie gang illustrate exactly why many blogs do have a moderation feature.
I think that the Holy Trinity should seriously start their own joint Hindutwa blog, now that they have probably got their quota of recruits and fanboys from this blog. He will at least have an assured readership of 5. Of course he should also have a prominent link to his parent site factusa.com there.
And guess what? We will request Arnab to link to that blog as well as an added bonus! It’s a win-win solution for everyone.
Of course before I get a “do you own this blog” comment, let me clarify that it is a just suggestion for Rishi Inc.
I even got a nice suggestion for a name – hindquarters.blogspot/typepad/etc.com!
What say?
What say?
@ sunil:
let me summarize your views:
– there is something different about islam and other religions. especially the prejudice.
– this has led to an Islamic insurgency with wide support from locals in kashmir. they hate india and secularism.
here’s the amazing part:
– this positions is the basis for the pakistan claim on kashmir. general kayani im sure will warmly agree with you.
– this is the basis for the two nation theory.
so if muslims are so different then we should kick them out of india or reduce them to second class citizenship (you know.. segregation, more search and seizures, arbitrary detention, no presumption of innocence, summary executions etc). also we should cede muslim majority areas like the kashmir valley to pakistan as we clearly have no right over them. i mean.. why do we want to have anything to do with muslims right?
THEY’RE DIFFERENT..
what a fool ive been! thanks. you have opened my eyes.
i dont even know how you can have a muslim as your friend as you love telling us.
be careful friend.
he may kill you suddenly to get into heaven when you least suspect it.
make sure he doesnt poison your drink . accidentally thump in the crotch to make sure he’s not carrying a concealed weapon. and in particular keep all the women in your family away from him when he visits your home.
thanks,
W.T.F
p.s. i was particularly convinced by your argument that anyone can walk into a gurudwara, store weapons, dig foxholes and build sand bag fortments.
p.p.s there is malicious propoganda that the pathan invaders raped and looted indiscriminately (muslims as well), getting distracted from capturing Srinagar in Kashmir leading to massive decrying in pakistan that the army sent amateurs to do a professionals job. the local muslims also played a stellar role is assisting the indian army in kicking the invaders out. but this is psuedo-secular rubbish.
we all know that in reality muslims are evil and that is the answer to everything.
Shan and others,
Is it possible for you to argue without adding epithets ranging from the funny to the absolutely gross?
Look if, GB does not have a problem (Let him come out and say that to eveyone), then you should not have one too. Simply because it is his. I know I know, you would say that you never asked GB to stop us or anyting blah blah, etc. If so, please state what you want GB to do, and not what you want us to do. But dude no one ever complained (if you want to still consider us groupies, you can)about you guys peddling you lies (I have been following the debate) and Wanderer has not proved anything. Wanderer has been spouting lots of German out there, but style does not substitute substance. Just because of two comments by Hujur which did not have sources, you guys came out of the woodwork to say all kinds of things and indulge in all kinds of innuendo.
@ Ravi Khujur
“Blind retaliation never works, but understanding the issues and working in a informed manner hels to prevent the situation that creates mindless violence in the first place. ”
As selfconfessed duh! I didnot quite make sense of this proferred advice. Can you write atleast a para to tell me more. What do you mean exactly by working in informed manner? So what if I havenot said the right words (in random order) “Ghazni-Bluestar-Kashmir-Jihad… ”
You didnot even offer me your access pass of email id which you did to some here. So what if I havenot told you yet that I am interested in your work, whatever it is. Why are you shying away from discussing it here.You have taken so much pain in teaching me Mediaval history and since then has been yo-yo-ing between Bluestar and Modi. (Gosh! Every time I feel that the future plans arte about to be unveiled, you sneak back into your mediaval history talk.) I am still asking you, what should I do? Other than looking out for your Verisign/similar protected site? How do I know that you exist and not a very intelligent guy from Nigeria or similar who has crossed his ‘You won a heirloom/windfall/million dollar lottery’days.
You have written much here and so why are you shying away from finally spelling it out. (Imagining you as baby, who needs a pat on the back to help burp out. Hope this worked, or you will have serious constipation and acidity)
I really cannot quote history to the depths that is being dug up here but does that mean that I am not asking the right question.
@ Sunil
You offered some hope in
‘The solution is not to engage in war with Islam or slaughter hapless Muslims as has been attributed to people like me by people like you. The solution lies in understanding this phenomenon in its reality and countering it in a peaceful, civilised fashion through social awareness, lobbying and ensuring that governments and politicians treat all communities with fairness and equality.’ Again how? Petition online? Times Of India leader search, where every single chosen person spoke of education, jobs, developement of poor? SMS to NDTV or similar? Tell me more?
Let me give you a hint? How about taking a hint from Farenheit 911?
( BTW, you started with your inability to decipher English, but you are manging pretty much better than I expected. You are even spewing Urdu shayaris, my..my, you are an polyglot, arent you? )
@Hujur:
‘Dipanwita raised a good point about what the next step is and also her questions about the downtroddens. Since you travelled around a lot during the past 2 weeks in different parts of India, can you please give a comprehensive response on what is being done and how she can help?’
May be I am too un-hindu for his attention…. sigh… guys! I am a practising Hindu with deeksha.I can quote the Ashram lineage of my Gurus who have followed the Guru parampara unlike the new age dudes like RaviShankar et all.
Doea that work as a magic words?
I have told this before, you have a lot to learn from Islam. Blind faith or not, they have moved over their regionalistic identities way back. Even if the religion teaches violence to non believers as you seem to harping on, they are united, we are not.
Let’s get to an utopian world, or even a slice of India, where Islam and followers have been wiped out. You guys, would comment on how the bongs add ‘O’ to all words. Or tell the Northeast that they cannot practise their ancient cultures. And call all people beyond the Vindyas as ‘madrasis’.
And go on to ‘unify’ what you believe as the ideal Indian identity.
Drive the ‘non-resdents’ and take away what’s theirs.
Force feed a national language spoken only in parts, thereby in reality making the non-speakers disown and disrespect it in the first place.
Try and convert the pluralist Hindu worship into an unified one, much to the delight of T-series and Vaishnodevi shrine management.
@ Whoever quoted Platypus.
Cute, do try and see if you can see the Platypus panel of the comic strip ‘B.C’. You will find a whole new dimension to the problems faced by these creatures.
@ kannan:
yes i agree. this a very serious website. no should make jokes.
we cannot afford humour when our very lives our in peril from islam.
and these rubbish people, shan, sayon, wanderer – over 200 comments and all they have said is that khujur.. i mean.. hujur… lied when it was clearly an obvious mistake in citing sources.
they have not been able to rebut a single point on anything. it is obvious. i am with you friend.
rishi please let me know how much money i cant send you for your noble causes.
@Rishi Khujur: As always, the same soft voice of seemingly sensible erudition whispering seductive hate. It’s so easy to be seduced by your kind of sophism as opposed to the blatant hate from so people like Shadows.
For the last time that I visit the comments page of this post, and in the interest of anyone really unbiased, as opposed to fundies masquarading as unbiased readers, let me explain the single reason why some of us (who pride ourselves as liberals) get frustrated arguing with your ilk and resort to insults and/or prescriptions of isapgol:
(Note: references to ‘you’ in the remaining comment do not mean specifically Rishi Khujur. It refers to, in general, you, Hujur, Sunil and many others who have been attacking Shan, Wanderer and anybody advocating any form of tolerance)
No matter what arguments there are for living in peace with fellow humans (for which we openly oppose apeasement, oppose political opportunism and oppose letting others commit violence aimed at us) your ilk reiterate (in different degrees of sophistication):
(a) Muslims are bad. their religion promotes hatred
(b) They try to convert everyone to Islam
(c) As Hindus, we have to oppose them and wipe them out, lest we get wiped out ourselves.
Somehow you will never understand that what I’m trying to say that crime by a Muslim criminal is like the same crime by a Hindu criminal – an issue of secular criminal law. When (as most people accept) Muslim hoodlums set fire to the Sabarmati Express, the correct civilised response was to catch the perpetrators, prosecute them as per law, and punish them to the maximum extent permitted by law and NOT to kill thousands of Muslims who weren’t involved in that attack. An administration who eschews the former and carries out the latter is more guilty than the hoodlums because they are supposed to uphold the law.
In West Bengal, an administration which encourages illegal immigration for votes has greater culpability than individual Bangladeshis who, after all cross over for better opportunities (Only a bigot would conclude that they come to convert Indians to Islam.) It also is criminally stupid to allow the riots in Kolkata to be treated as a communal affair -it’s a law and order problem and a rioter is a rioter, whether he reads the Gita or the Koran. Because opportunist politicians behave otherwise, doesn’t make things different.
Of course, you have amply demonstrated the power of selective reading and quoting – you have read the Koran ignored all the good in Islam and found only the hateful. You hear the bigoted mullas and can never hear the moderate voice of Islam.
Have you read this piece by M J Akbar? He’s pretty much an unapologetic Muslim (one of the last supporters of the moribund Mohammedan Sporting football club 🙂 ), and usually speaks on behalf of his fellow Muslims through his newspaper articles. Here’s what he has to say about the Kolkata Riots (Asian Age, 25 November, 2007):
http://www.asianage.com/presentation/leftnavigation/mjakbar's-corner/bylines/calcutta-volcano.aspx
Does this make you think that there could be more Muslims like Mr Akbar with whom we could share this secular nation in peace?
Or do you manage to turn conveniently blind when faced with an inconvenient truth?
I’m a proud Hindu – and would not convert to another religion for love or money. But I have had many friends and colleagues who are Muslim Indians. I wish to live in a country which allows us to live as equals, while allowing each of us to retain our identity, a vision anathemic to fundies, both Hindu and Muslims.
Unfortunately, when your ilk have their way, it is these moderate people who will be first up against the wall, because they are so much easier targets than the actual criminals who attack you and rape your women.
You know what that makes you? One simple word – C.O.W.A.R.D.
*Sigh* Not a proud upholder of Hindu tradition and values? Not a defender of the faith? Not a tragic hero advocating Hindu lebensraum ? In the end – coward? How low can you get? *Sigh*
@Hujur-Khujur-Sunil
Actually, ,you are all talking about Taslima, as she fits into your scheme of things. Dont mistake of reading her writings as about Hindus being illtreated by Muslims in Bangaldesh, she was actually writing about the illtreatment of the minority by majority. She, considering is a thinking person will surely observe and write about the same in her guest country. And it can be anybody, with any definition, any identity, any language, any genetic makeup. Many of her bengali readers snigered at her ‘Nirbachito kalaam’, about the treatment of women in a male dominated society. Heaven help, if she utters a single word from that in present. How would you men react? Can her names?
BTW , Modi’s invitation was like the spider saying “Welcome to my parlour “.
And to add to your unfied ideal-hindu-collective plans,
– You will probably tell how even a Hindu naari should behave in public and private. And tie us up in a invisible straightjackets.
– And would not highlight the point that Buddha is considered one of Vishnu’s das avataar, as that might antagonise Mayavati. After all, she managed to show some bit of the unity that I have pointed out earlier in my naive (read non-history quoting) manner.
– Burn a preacher and two innocent boys as they were being anti-hindu by treating the poor and the needy where none of you even reached when it was needed.
– Start a fight against Christianity, the next enemy in line.
Honestly, what do you guys do for a living? I will start. I have done a post grads in a specialised field of work that keeps me pretty much occupied yet being able to take time to read up and react to my favourite blog here from time to time. How do you guys get so much time even to google, read up and copy paste. Did you ever think of getting into public services exams? I think you should all give it a shot. And choose History as the main subject.
In Bhagwat Geeta, the Lord says that you will achieve what you think all the time. So He says to think of Him in all we do. I can count three Wise men out here who will cavort the hoories in Muslim heaven.
@ the banana republic:
due to obvious unemployment and recent understanding of the muslim curse i just read the banana republic post which our fearless leader rishi k suggested as a constructive debate on the Islam question.
Tarzan a muslim (who admitted that ‘It is OUR (common muslim) mistake that we are giving him (fundamentalists) a chance to pi point our religion and question Islam. Thats the Truth.’). To this our fearless leader rishi K proved to him that his religion was inferior and disgusting by quoting the koran and the hadith. i enjoyed reading that immensely now. i also feel ashamed for trying to defend Tarzan then.
it emerged that the solution to islam question was provided by Hujur (NOT to be confused with our fearless leader):
Mass conversion of muslims back to the mother religion of hinduism.
but friends our job will not be done.. there will still be christains.. i have heard there are 3 jews living in pune. we must convert them too. and south indians.
onward hinduism!! today india.. tomorrow the world!
Hello Wanderer,
Inspite of the fact you have not quoted a single source for you treatise on the Indian Army’s strategy in Kashmir, I will try
to summarise your points and respond to them. Please bear with me.
1. The terrain in Kashmir requires greater man power and hence the army was used vis a vis Punjab.
2. Bulk of the troops in kashmir are against China and not engaged in COIN Ops.
3. Since the bulk of the troops are not angaged in COIN ops, the threat from Militants is low.
4. Since the threat from Militants is low The army brass and the politicians want to withdraw troops.
5. There are 300000 screaming jehadis waiting to launch in to India.
My Response:
1. I agree the terrain in kashmir requires greater man power. However you assertion that it will require 36 battalions of RR
along with the police , paramilitary forces, regular Army and special forces to fight a militancy which is of the same scale
as Punjab (which was fought only by the police) just because of the terrain is fallacious.
2. To the best of my knowledge the Army does not disclose how many troops it has in kashmir and for what purpose.To me this
assertion is fallacious pending your disclosure of your source. Also if the troops are meant for China, why is there talk of withdrawing them. Surely the threat of China Linking up with Pakistan is not going to vanish ever. By your logic the troops should be in Kashmir forever.If so why do the politicians and the Brass want troops out of kashmir like you pointed out????
3. Please back up this claim with numbers or data.
4. Incorrect – The politicians want the troops out, the ARmy does not and I quote JJ singh “Reiterating the army’s position
on the issue, Singh said the question of withdrawal did not rise, as troops were also deployed to counter infiltration from across the western border where there was evidence of armed terrorists attempting to cross over regularly with weapons, explosives and other equipment.’No country will allow such a thing (infiltration) to happen. Deployment of troops for counter infiltration is justified. As far as the hinterland is concerned, the army has been called in as a constitutional obligation to help in restoring law and order.
‘Our presence gives security to the people and helps the state administration in carrying out its functions. But law and
order is yet to be restored. I personally feel the litmus test is to normalise the situation, where the people are safe and
anyone can visit the place without fear. I don’t think that situation has come. And when it does, the government or the state will recommend that the army is no longer required,’ Singh pointed out.”
Also read what the defence Minister has to say – ““Terrorists are getting support from across the border. That is a fact (and unless this ceased, there could be no withdrawal of troops),” Antony, who was here to inspect the post-tsunami rehabilitation measures being undertaken in this southern island of the Andaman and Nicobar chain, added. Pressed on the issue, he said: “At the appropriate time, we will review the situation. Whether (this will happen) tomorrow I can’t say. There have been several rounds of discussions. Everything depends on the emerging security scenario.”Pointing out that the government had sent the army to combat terrorism when it erupted in Kashmir in 1989, Antony said: “The threat is still there. We don’t want to deploy the armed forces (in Kashmir), but what do we do? We have to protect ourselves against terrorism.”“Their (the security forces’) working conditions are extremely difficult. We don’t want this situation to continue,” he added.Pressed on a timetable for the troops withdrawal, Antony said this depended on the recommendations of the security forces.“The armed forces and other security forces must tell us (when the time is ripe for withdrawing troops),” he maintained.”
Everybody admits that the ground situation for the troops is difficult and agree that the Army is primarily fighting the Insurgents but you are welcome to your theories about it.
5. Yes, there are many jehadis waiting to launch in to India. If this objective is not motivated bt religion then please tell me what is driving them. On comparison with Punjab – Did you have 300000 Khalsas waiting in pakistan ready to launch in to Punjab and take it from infidels???
Please realise that kashmir is symptomatic of a Politico – religious war that has been unleashed on India. Punjab was just the by product of secetarian politics.
http://in.news.yahoo.com/070817/43/6jl0l.html
http://www.freshnews.in/troop-withdrawal-in-kashmir-depends-on-ground-situation-antony-884
Hello Dipanwita,
Firstly thank you for thinking my English is manageably good. Barry Sir (my english teacher) would be happy.On being a polygot – yes Urdu shayari has a way of mesmerising you that very few things have.
I stand by what I said and will continue to stand by it. I dont have to take hints from Farenheit 9/11. It would be a lot better if our Governement just did the following –
1. Uniform Civil Code
2. Abrogate article 370
3. Stop playing Vote Bank politics
4 Check the flow of Petro Dollars to Madsarsas
5. Stop infiltration from Bangladesh and ensure that the current lot of immigrants are not pandered to.
Thanks
Sunil.
@ banana republic:
as usual we saw how another one of those- ravi ivaturi only resorted to barbs and sarcasm. sunil gave him a patient hearing as usual with his legendary open mind.
needless to say everything ravi ivaturi said was dismissed (and rightly so) as rubbish and poor sunil failed to learn anything again (only because the opposition knows nothing).
man! this site is so tanking because of the load of comments.
Hello WTF
1. Yes there is something different about islam and other religions, especially the prejudice.
2. Yes this has led to an Islamic Insurgency in kashmir. They hate India.
3.In correct: The positon for the basis of Pakistani claim on Kashmir is that Muslim are not safe in a country with a Hindu majority inspite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
4. Point 3 is also the basis of the two nation theory.
If Muslims are diffrent , it does not mean that we kick them out. Where have I said that Muslims should be kicked out??? Dont Ascribe ideas to me that are a figment of your imagination.
Why should kashmir be ceded when we have a legal and tenable claim on it, besides the rights of thousands of Hindus who have been driven out.
WTF I am not as bigoted and blinkered in my hate for something that is not in line with my Ideology as you are. My muslim friends know this and appreciate the diversity of opinion that I bring to discussions. Something that you obviously cannot stand. Fear not my friend, I will not be bumped off by my Muslim friends, I will keep coming back to respond to your posts whether you like it or not.
Please visit the Harmandar Sahab once, you will be even more convinced.
Please provide evidence of this “malicious propaganda”
I am still waiting for evidence on the Hindu Migration to haryana, the violent militaristic nature of Sikhi and the Inveterate hatred which Sikhs have for Muslims.
Thanks.
Sunil.
Rishi- you = modern day Galileo. Dont worry. wanderer is like a medival stupid cristan. I know the free speech haters are here. their real islamic selves are showing. These liberals are araid that their masks will fall off. Rishi please dont stop. Millionz read u.
shubs- will you call van gogh a bad artist if you fail to understand art? the ‘bewildered’ comment beauty as anything by amir khusru. Show is to Rushdie. he would get nude and dance in joy applauding it. rishi is a philosopher. he is also gr8 teacher.
arnab doesnt care others write on the comments. but he doesnt hate free speech.
@ sunil:
“WTF I am not as bigoted and blinkered in my hate for something that is not in line with my Ideology as you are.”
this is your weakness. the muslims will take advantage of this. wait and see.
those suggestions about dealing with muslims are not yours-they’re mine.
you see you’ve won me over with your arguments.
those 5 suggestions you have made to deal with islam are psuedo-secular nonsense. only hujur (not khujur) suggestions will work.
Hello WTF,
Thank you for your sarcasm and witticisms. I am sure we will have a constructive argument in future when you have something to say instead of engaging in nonsensical repartees.
Thanks
Sunil.
GB, your blog has been hijacked, you are tragically successfull
@ sunil (on sikhism):
my mistake. sikhism is the world’s most peaceful religion.
no atrocities were committed on hindus. in fact, i admit it- the whole khalistan movement is a lie. operation blue star was a radio programme which like ‘war of the worlds’ just confused people.
the sikh mandate to carry kirpans can be equated to the jain monk covering his mouth. it is only a form of self-defense after all.
most importantly they are our allies against islam.
what is the purpose of this debate? are we solving anything? if not isnt this topic too serious and the implications too real to be plain cubicle distraction? if the latter is what we want lets discuss angela jolie in Bewoulf.. GB how about a post on that?
Hi sunil,
Lost the link of our previous sweet talk, could you help me to restart from where we left? I saw your last comment addressed to Dipanwita. My question is if you say that these (Uniform civil code etc.) are things which are supposed to be done then what is stopping you from doing so? I think BJP/NDA should have done it as they are confessed RSS arm. What stopped you and your FREINDS from getting it done?
@cousin debika: will you make franship with me?
@Somak: “what is the purpose of this debate? are we solving anything? ”
We are saving Hinduism my friend. Kaum khatre mein hain. Pracharakji bolte hain.
“GB, your blog has been hijacked”
Yeh GB kaun hain?
Shaun: GB is the blog’s mai bap the Great Bong … any body for a lively discussion on golden naked three dimensional Angelina Jolie with a tail?
Re Sunil
>> Khalistan
Exactly. It all boils down to the “veracity” and interpretation AND modification of a religious text or set of rules laid down for the followers. The Quran was “frozen” too and Mohd. Declared himself the Last Rasul… look how many different interpretations and hues have sprung out of the single text. Look how many different Hadis (some quite contradictory and downright fantastic), written centuries after his death were churned out. The Quran was also set down “for eternity” (and that too by 2nd hand and 3rd hand sources ‘coz must of the companions were killed at the end of Yamama) but later came dangerous concepts like Nasikh-Mansukh and the torpedoing of ideals like Itjehad, Bidaah and Qiyaz (that were supposed to rein in the followers). No two sects of Islam will agree with each other, except if the topic they are discussing is the very Shahada. There are huge debates inside Islam on the nature of greater and lesser Jihad (among other things), but the knickerwaalahs and Evanjehadis are convinced that it is all bogus and smoke-screen.
The problem Mr. Sunil, is the context and the prism the texts are viewed from….. and it’s the political and ruling groups that “decipher” and “interpret” the exceedingly difficult texts for the lay. Forget Islam, even Buddhism had an extremely dark and violent history. Just Google out Baron Ungern von Sternberg or read Hopkirk’s “Setting the East Ablaze”. Hey, why go so far, look what the Hindu zealots want to do with Indian Islam and Indian Muslims and how they twist the most enlightened texts to “support” their dark aims….
In this context, it is very very probable that left unchecked the creeping perversion of Sikh tenets, guided from abroad would have spread into the Indian populace. It worked perfectly well in UK, US and Canada with all it’s affluent and educated, didn’t it? Wouldn’t the lay Sikh peasant be susceptible to conditioning as well?
Maybe you dunno why that particular date (and when so many devotees were present) was chosen for Op Blue Star…. Why was the Op launched barely hours after Military Intelligence operatives with hidden cameras had snapped the complex fortifications and huge buildup inside the temple? Why were Paras used in a place that had no cover… nobody with half-a-brain would have sent troops into overlapping fields of fire unless something was really really wrong:- The police and paramilitary cordon around Amritsar had been breached at multiple points by huge crowds of Sikhs from the villages and were inching towards the complex. And how did these lay get there? Regular radio broadcasts from Nankana Sahib and from inside the Golden temple calling all believers to “protect the faith”…. and guess what, thousands responded turning against the state. Op Woodrose was a direct result of this very disturbing development….. If the heart of India of could be swayed by anonymous voices on the air, how far do you think the end of India is?
Hello Annonx,
I am neither a part of the RSS nor the BJP nor the Bajrang Dal. I visit this blog often and express my views as and when I deem it fit. A lot of views and objectives have been attributed to me by many on this forum without an iota of truth in them and without providing a shred of evidence. I dont however disagree to the fact that there is considerable overlap between what I think and the views of the RSS. The fact that all political parties have failed to improve the economic and political landscape of this country has a lot to do with people not understanding facts and not working towards making them heard. I dont know why the BJP/NDA failed to implement the uniform civil code etc. I am sorry but I cannot be of any help to you on this.
Thanks.
Sunil.
P.S: When we last talked you were insisting without any basis that I want to prove that Hindu leaders are better than non hindu ones.
Sunil bhai,
Then, will you consider a humble opinion that may be it is not about religions but about stoutness of moral and human ideologies that makes strong leaders? And that the problems of India, that you discuss, defend and attribute (under different situations) to Islam are basically political cowardice and political opportunism of our political leadership. May be if we have a strong and nationalist (not necessarily Hindu) leader we will be able solve the problems? If it is too deep an “overlap of ideology”, it will not be possible but otherwise …
Annonx Bhai,
I agree that many problems that the country faces come from lack of “Stoutness of moral and ideological” moorings. However there are some issues that originate from core philosophies and indoctrination. Khalji as someone pointed out was a great administrator but did that stoutness of leadership prevent him from engaging in savagery. Ghazni was a brilliant leader, but did those qualities of stoutness translate to civilised conduct. Before you say the fault lies in the medieval times, I request you to look at some other stout leaders like Rana Pratap, Banda Bahadur, Shivaji, Ranjit Singh. I am not saying they were better because they were Hindu/Sikh. All I am trying to say is that there is a difference between an efficient Leader and Just leader. You can have efficient leaders like Khalji, Aurangzeb, Ghazni,who will create systems and efficiency etc but they will never make Good Just leaders until and unless they embrace an open and enlightened way of looking at people who dont agree with them.Unfortunately historically most Muslim leaders, encouraged and incited by the Quran have failed to do this and going by the current leadership, I dont see them doing so in the future either.
Thanks
Sunil.
P.S: We have already seen on the streets Park Circus the fall out of a brave and just political decison to give refuge to Taslima Nasreen. Do you think any politician in his sane mind would be able to take brave decisons when people from a particular community react like this to something as harmless as giving refuge to an Author.
Sunil,
Strangely whatever you say about Khalji’s savagery, Ghazni’s ‘un’civilzed conduct rings so very true for another great administrator of present day India. That makes even a stronger point that the religion is irrelevent, it is personal values that is required to make good leaders.
About your PS – I hope you are not supporting the WB governments decision to bundle off the writer in a burkha to Delhi, so that they can protect their vote bank! If Buddhadev had been a leader, he would have continued to host Tasleema. Sadly he proved to be a communist
@ annonx:
exactly. it cannot be denied that a uniform civil code is in the interests of the country.
The UCC needs to be packaged not as a tool to put muslims in their place or to defend the country against them. it is a tool for the social progress of the entire country.
in law, i swear to you, the most cumbersome area to study is personal law (especially inheritance) of each religion separately. even the geniuses i know have problems wrapping their heads around it.
one of india’s premier personal law specialist lawyers was so niche that if he didnt come to court for a day, no matter about family law could be taken up, as he had an appearance in all of them. in his farm he had a real working train. he threw a huge party every holi where people could dance ‘chaiya chaiya’ on the train.
beat that for a story rishi khujur.
Sayon wrote:
It also is criminally stupid to allow the riots in Kolkata to be treated as a communal affair –
Rishi’s response:
This is the point of divergence for us Sayon.
See when you see a situation like Kolkata and the Taslima riots, you are quick to call it a law and order problem.
But,
I see that it is absolutely no different from what happened after the Hazratbal incident in 1964 and its effects in Dhaka. (which shubs so famously analysed 🙂
And I see and try to show a clearly visible pattern all over the world of similar incidents and try connect the dots.
Now people like you and WTF and some others sometimes do see the pattern and agree/disagree with me analysing the reasons for the same.
Some just tell me that i wear Khakhi knickers and discount the whole argument.
But anyway.
@ Hujur bhai
Dipanwita ko dukhi mat karo…please respond to her comments.
This thread reminds me of the inane chatter you make have while waiting for a show to start in order to kill time.
i keep come back thinking that arnab da’s is going to post any moment. long overdue!
Hi Sunil,
Urdu for mesmerising!! We are mesmerised enough with the length,width and depth of your collective cuboidal knowledge. Somehow, this angle is as good as the sheroshayari as seen or heard in public transport systems in the North. They are even making stickers out of them, these days.
As in Farenheit 9/11 wanted to suggest that if you trio have ‘orbs’ of the strongest material known to man, go ahead and make a film to expose the hatred. Tehelka has shown the way to many, believe me. That will shake up a few people and trust me, that would not be restricted to any religious comunity. All hindus are not deshbhakts by default as you seem to believe. And solidarity to factusa and that other site of hujur’s. Please do not confine your great selves to net, reach out. The hate-brigade needs you. So does the octogenerian and nanogenerain netas of BJP, RSS and VHP. Fresh ideas, fresh initiative, fresh approach, fresh hands to draw fresh blood. Go for it folks.
Ahem,.. getting back to our discussion, there is a lot of meaningful mails that finds way into the newspapers, why not try that less action route?
The remedies that you suggested are for the Govt. of India and the politicians in general to decide and implement. What exactly have you done to remind them about these?
To be more precise, what you can do is :-
1. Uniform Civil Code – Why blame NDA? Why not make the present govt, do smoething. It has been kept in hibernation and will remain so even if Modi becomes our next PM , if ever. So start a petition, ask for SMS, tie up with Airtel or Vodafone. Rake in the moolah.
2. Abrogate article 370 – Yes, but clean up the system first. The army is known for its excesses too. Cant you see that if we dont fight, we dont buy arms and keep the arms industry jobs safer.
3. Stop playing Vote Bank politics – Start with your local neta first. Tell him not to hobnob with the locality’s goons.
4 Check the flow of Petro Dollars to Madsarsas – and to the various Hindu’isation projects through the various maths and sants and parishads. same goes for conversions to church. You know what hurts! We are literally wiping out the most simplisitic approach to life by calling them backward, the most ancient knowledges by calling them supertitious. We are killing a culture by equifying them with wild beasts who therefore needs to be tamed.
5. Stop infiltration from Bangladesh and ensure that the current lot of immigrants are not pandered to – That’s for Alimuddin street and it’s stooges.
But I am sure , you will have more ideas, kindly enlighten on the above as I am yet to hear about ‘What according to you, can we, as single individuals do to counter the Islamic aggression in certain parts of India and world? ‘ But I am still patiently waiting for Khujur to reappear
How long do I have to wait for Khujur to finally pop the big answer!! Arrrghh…… I am getting older !!
@ Cousin Debika (whose cousin are you? Shubs’es? )
You simbly rock !! I mean, you are those kinds who dont have to try like the rest of us. You are way too cool. And thanks for reminding us about the free speech angle, I have been silently reading and typing back. Damn! where’s my megaphone, when I need one. I will post my next comment via Youtube.
You are truly the Mary Magdelen to the Christ like Khujur (bleeding under the barbarous attacks by leftists-non knickered-threesome suggesting-liberal-wellread-Indian identifying-spin doctor-bloggers) and his two disciples. Keep the faith, your Lord shall rise in a while.
Hello Annonx,
Yes I tried raising the same point when the wanderer called Khalji a great administrator and tried to defend him, but I was shouted down. However leaders and members of one community have engaged in this savagery more often, at a greater scale and over an extended period of time with the explicit written sanction of their religion. Modi was not acting on some injunction in the Geeta which says go and kill Muslims, while Khalji was doing exactly what the Quran asks him to do. And that is why I say that Islam is different and should be looked at as such.
No I am not defending the WB Govt. Infact after Nandigram and Taslima , my faith is Buddho Babu has been badly shaken
Thanks
Sunil.
Hello Dipanwita,
Many thanks for your suggestions on how to make this country better. I assure you I am doing everthing I can to ensure that we live in a better India. If you feel that you serve a better purpose by giving lectures, closing yourself to contrarian views and responding to arguments with empty rhetoric then please carry on. Since you are fond of shayari that appears on the public transport systems up north here’s one for you:
“Palle nahin hai dhela
karte hain mela mela”
Thanks
Sunil.
Sunil,
Let us take a flight of imagination now. By 2050 if India keeps her growth rate at the same as present she might be somewhere at the top of the pile of developed nations. Being the able administrator, Modi or somebody emulating him might be the top leader of the nation. If the Gujarat experiment is repeated at national level under his/her leadership, will there be forums which will discuss how Gita preaches violance by justifying that no relatives should be spared when it comes to religion? Just ponder over it
Hello Annonx,
The Gita does not preach that no relatives should be spared when it comes to religion. Please read up a little on it and also on the Quran. I am sure you will be able to understand the difference.
Thanks
Sunil.
@ sunil:
as usual you have no clue about what the person, in this case, annox is alluding to.
you confuse sanctimony with rationality in your arguments.
but hey! im on your side now brother. islam is like maggi hot and sweet tomato ketchup -it’s different!
@ rishi:
while you’re connecting dots also see how people conduct ‘legitimate’ political protests in the third world. then think about how this problem can be worse in a theocratic state which encourages religious sensitivity or our democracy which flirts with it.
by connecting dots i could draw suitable inferences about all gujjars and maybe even all OBC’s by their behaviour. say that maybe hinduism is right about the lower castes. dangerous road to go down..
this i why i keep telling you that religion is a bad standard to judge anything by. i feel sad that you dedicate so much time to one religion. if you served the nation in general so many more people could benefit from your efforts.
@ WTF
Its sad that you judge my service to the nation by reading this blog.
But then again do we really know each other?
Hello WTF,
If I have no clue about what Annonx is alluding to, why dont you educate me? Please elucidate where I have confused sanctimony with rationality. Or are you going to say that there has been no survey carried out on “How Sunil confuses Sanctimony with Reality” and hence you cannot prove it.
Thanks
Sunil.
Sunil wrote :”I stand by what I said and will continue to stand by it. I dont have to take hints from Farenheit 9/11. It would be a lot better if our Governement just did the following –
1. Uniform Civil Code
2. Abrogate article 370
3. Stop playing Vote Bank politics
4 Check the flow of Petro Dollars to Madsarsas
5. Stop infiltration from Bangladesh and ensure that the current lot of immigrants are not pandered to.”
Excellent stuff – how can anyone not agree to this ?
It’s great that GB doesn’t censor political views. I don’t think anyone should be calling for Khujur, Hujur etc to be moved from this blog, I actually find the cut and thrust of all these arguments fairly interesting and generally superior in tone to the Rediff thing that someone mentioned. As for “hate” speak, that seems to be an exageration. Clearly there’s a dislike and clearly there are frustrations on both sides, but it makes a change from vacuous comments on the latest Hindi movie.
I would think most readers here are adults and can make up their own minds, based not least on their own experiences.
This is a personal opinion, I don’t pretend to speak for “us”.
@ Dipanwita
I am back 🙂
Dipanwita wrote:
Uniform Civil code…
Rishi’s response:
Where do you want to begin the activism. How do we connect?
Dipanwita wrote:
Check the flow of Petro Dollars to Madsarsas – and to the various Hindu’isation projects through the various maths and sants and parishads.
Rishi’s response:
Petro-dollar doesnt go to “Hinduization”. I wish it did. :)Dipanwita wrote:
Dipwanwita wrote:
What according to you, can we, as single individuals do to counter the Islamic aggression in certain parts of India and world? ‘ But I am still patiently waiting for Khujur to reappear.
Rishi’s response:
Now that is a very good thing you asked. WHAT CAN YOU AS A INDIVIDUAL DO TO COUNTER ISLAMIC AGGRESSION.
1. Understand the Agression
Followers of Islam everywhere in the world are just like their non-Islamic brothers/sisters living next door to them. There is hardly any racial difference between Hindus and Muslims in different regions in India.
So what is it that makes Islamic terrorism a pandemic over the ages?
2. Understand the Agressor and the Victim:
This is different from the first point. The aggressor in the case of Islamic Jihad sometimes doesn’t realize that the cause of Islam for which it is fighting has a few generations back consumed his/her own forefathers in the same manner as the Muslim is now trying to consume the Kafir.
Look at Kashmir, isn’t it sad that a Syed Sahuddin of Hizbul had his Hindu forefathers being targeted by another Hizbul like entity. Temporally, it’s a ever expanding vicious cycle. The ideology is the same, the technology of the aggressor is changing.
3. Counter strategy:
Educate yourself and understand point 1 ) and 2) first. The work with a strategy.
Offensive: Use lawful and decisive means to reduce operational advantage of the aggressor. This is not just in the field of law and order and counter-sedition, but also in the field of information and circulation of pint 1) and 2).
Defensive: Provide relief and semblance of normal life to the victims at all costs. Use point 1) and 2) to generate resources and pressurize governing bodies at all level to provide self sufficiency and security to victims.
Cintinued from prev.
@ Dipanwita
4. Consolidation: Use all three above in spirals of different radii to achieve consolidation. Tactical and operational methods can vary.
5. Exit strategy: THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT. You do not want Islamic terrorism to be replaced by say Sikh terrorism or Hindu terrorism. That is again where your understanding of the threat perception and knowledge will allow you to draw the line aftr achieving your goal.
Let me know if you have questions
Rishi_khujur@rediffmail.com
@ Dipanwita
Typo of the hizbul leader..its syed salahuddin.
needless to say Dipwanwita..but I reiterate again
Islam is the problem..not muslims.
Muslims are as much a victim of Islam as the rest of humanity.
@ WTF
btw…its not just that Islam is a serious problem…I consider, natural resource management/bio diversity and energy crisis at the same level of gravity and threat. 🙂
@ sunil:
sanctimony is not determined by surveys.
thanks,
w.t.f
@ rishi:
“three above in spirals of different radii to achieve consolidation.”
of course. of course. why didnt i think of that? while that is plainly obvious..
i think just saying that we need to wipe Islam out by mass conversion is more clear, isnt it?
“Muslims are as much a victim of Islam as the rest of humanity “
Here is where you obfuscate your analysis, Rishi. You talk as though the ideology has a life of its own- a veritable Frankenstein monster that possesses all its followers and goads them to destroy everything that is alien to their religion. You talk as though the Muslims are identical humanoids mass-produced in a Koranic factory programmed (or can be programmed) to kill all the Kafirs. My friend, its one thing to interpret a medieval text in a scholarly manner, but quite another to predict a religious holocaust based on your so-called ability to connect the dots.
My 2 cents… Take a balanced view; do not look for patterns where they do not exist. TRPs are a bad trade-off for Truth.
muslims are as much victims of islam as the rest of humanity?
?
?
?
like ravi ivaturi has said, islam isn’t a frankenstein monster, or even animate
this, if extended, leads to saying bin laden is also just a victim of islam, since he is muslim and they are victims.
if muslims are victims, who is the perpetrator here?
i have read a lot of your, and frankly everyone’s, arguments, and admittedly, most of it went over my head, but this makes no sense at all, unlike most of your other arguments which do.
while i don’t agree with your arguments, they make sense sometimes
this one is, frankly bad
@S
Since you asked…
Its the belief system that controls the thought process (humans work on intellect, not instinct)…
read the Koran and believe in it..the rest will come to you automatically.
To go back to your case study, Osama.
He would not be doing what he is doing if he did not follow the Koran to the core. Break his belief in the Koran, Osama will become Salman Rushdie 🙂
@ Kannan
Tried sending Hujur a IM.
Seems his message reads “out on business”. WTF and others who are waiting for the sources he missed…i donno how long u guys have to wait.
Dipanwita…u have to wiat for Hujur.
so osama IS a victim of islam…
ive never heard it put like that..
i will think about it, though
Aah what an interesting discussion.
At this point I would like to interject and just clear some things for the record.
1. A few of you have said that the comment-space on RTDM has become/is in danger of becoming a Rediff message board. I would beg to disagree. On Rediff message boards, every message consists of a random permutation of the words: “Allah” “cow” “pig” “Sita” “whore” along with other assorted expletives. At RTDM in contrast we usually have a more or less civil discussion, supported by facts, (Googled or channeled from native knowledge as they may be) minus the kind of abusive muck we see on the said message boards. To keep RTDM from not becoming a Rediff message board, I have in fact several times moderated and selectively edited out (by mentioning of course that it has been edited) comments which I have felt overstepped the line from heated debate to frothing hate.
[A point here. Sometimes some people feel I have moderated/deleted their comments because they do not agree with me. I never do so…it so happens that comments with links or comments suspected to be spam often get passed off into the moderation queue and sometimes regrettably even eaten up. In case I have to moderate someone’s comments (which is something I do in rather extreme cases), I explicitly mention the fact inside the body of the comment itself.]
2.I personally enjoy the debate here at RTDM–I myself learn so much. I however do not agree or endorse 100% anyone’s views—be it the Khujur or the Shan/WTF team. However I do not feel any need to moderate anyone’s opinion because as mentioned in point 1, the debate (with some transgressions into the “ad hominem” space—some of it inevitable in such debates I would add) has been within the bounds of civility.
3.It has been mentioned that people do not feel comfortable commenting here any more because of the presence of Hindu right wing elements. I am puzzled by this. As far as I understand people not only comment in response to other people’s comments but also in response to the original post. If some of you feel that the posts are being hijacked by people plugging a cause or pushing an agenda, the solution is simple. Do not respond or even read their comments.
Summing up, why the comments of a few should prevent others from commenting *on my post* is something I frankly do not get.
4. Factoid: This post is the most commented post at RTDM beating the record of Himesh. Tanhaiyaaaaahhh……
@GB : well put.
At this point I’d like to extend my congratulations to GB for the most commented upon Indian message board of all time! It’s fitting that it’s about an issue such as Nandigram. GB, you’ve arrived, and it’s richly deserved. Kudos!
@GB: I sent you my congratulations from a different comp so probably didn’t go through, or may appear as Annonymouse, but again, HEARTIEST CONGRATULATIONS on beating your own record. Well done!
Pseudo Secular psychology
Hi all i have a theory on the mind-set of pseudos as we see on the forum:
Just a thought i wanted to share with all. While reading Tathagata Roys excellent book on the forced migration of East-Bengali Hindus, it occured to me that some of the most fervently ‘secular’ i.e minority loving politicians and people from West Bengal are originally from East Bengal or what is now called Bangladesh.
They seem to outdo the ‘west bengali’ origin people in their strident defence of ‘secularism’ ( or pseudo secularism ). It seemed to puzzle me until it occured to me that they are actually Enforcing their Delusions :
As a people the upper caste East Bengali hindus seemed to have had a reasonably high self esteem and confidence. One could say that they were in fact a very proud people.
The absolutely ghastly and humiliating treatment they suffered in the hands of muslims from 1947 onwards till today must have scarred & shaken their collective psychology quite badly. Above all the fact that thousands if not hundreds of thousands of their own womenfolk were raped by the muslims while they were absolutely unable to prevent the rape must have shattered their self-esteem.
Also the fact that they simply misjudged the muslims and were not intelligent enough to see this enormous catastrophe coming would have put a lot of self doubt in their minds. Bengalis pride themselves upon their intelligence which would have suffered.
Their martial capabilities such as courage, confidence and ability to work as a team would have also been proved below par, to put it kindly.
In the face of this terrible blow to their mental equilibrium, the majority of East Bengali hindus would have found it easy to accept the delusion that any such holocaust never occured. And even if some atrocities did take place, they were very minor and could be ignored.
However as any student of human evolutionary psychology would know it is extremenly difficult to delude ones own mind and constantly live a lie every day. The human mind is a beautiful computer which has been programmed by evolution to reject all untruth as it is detrimental to survival in the long run.
The only way in which these people would be able to survive with this delusion is to Enforce this Delusion constantly. The best way to enforce this delusion was to go the other extreme and love the minorities (ie muslims) in every way possible. The idea being to prove to the external world and also to themselves that the fact they love the muslims so much proves that no atrocities could possibly have been committed by the muslims on their people.
This was in their own minds a very clever ploy to ‘save face’ from their own concience as well as from the indians who had suffered no such atrocities. Just imagine how funny the muslims who actually committed these atrocities ( such as the bihari muslims now back in India living in Kidderpore, Metia Burj, garden reach and other parts of Central Calcutta ) would find this attitude. They would laugh themselves stupid.
I suspect this psychology could very well be the reason for a lot of other people besides the bengalis being so secular. In fact i suspect this ‘peudo-secularism’ we see today is nothing but an attempt to hide their own shame.
some one on this forum asked “why bjp/nda did not bring in uniform civil code while in power”
simple answer – to do that would require a 2/3rd vote/morjority in parliament.something that Rajiv Gandhi had and used to over ride supreme court judgement in shah bano case.
Hello Wanderer,
My apologies for responding late to your post.I just saw it.
I will again try to summarise your arguments and respond to them. Please bear with me.
1. Islam’s principles and the Quran have been twisted for narrow ends. Th religion of Islam does not promote hatred agains non muslims.
2. Budhism has a direct and violent history also so Islam is not be blamed for its violence.
3.Creeping perversion of Sikh Tenets would have permeated Indian Punjab if left unchecked.
4. If the educated Sikh can be indoctrinated the lay Sikh would be more suceptible to this perversion.
5. I dont know why that particular date was chosen, Why was the op launched hours after the MI snapped up pictures of fortifications.
6. Paras were sent in to a trap because the brass knew something was really really wrong.
7. The paramilitary cordon near Amritsar was breached at many places by lay sikhs encouraged by radio broadcasts from Nankana Sahib and Harmandar sahab. Thousands turned up against the state.
My response:
1. This canard has been demolished many many many times on this forum by Rishi who has provided detailed translations of the Quran clearly stating the nature of war to be waged against Kafirs.
2. This is what I got from a google search of Sternberg and frankly I dont see how it is linked to the Bloody nature of Buddhism in the same lines as Islam. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Ungern_von_Sternberg.
3. This is plain conjecture on your part. Sikhism unlike Islam has liberal moorings and allows dissent and debate. Your logic that violent perversion would have creeped in to sikhism is purely speculative and open ended.
4.Ultimately it was the lay sikh who rejected and crushed this movement. Hence your assertion that the lay sikh would have been indoctrinated is fallacious. In your own words the sikhs are not clowns. They know what their Religion stands for.
5.I DO know what the date was. Gen Brar has specifically said that the date was chosen because the Army feared that Bhindranwale would declare independence, Pakistan would simultaneously attack and the Sikhs under the impression that the Harmandar Sahib was under Siege would come out to demonstrate causing operational difficulties for the Army. He also says that the para were sent without cover because the Army had underestimated the strength of the Militants holed up inside and not because it had MI photos nor because it was desperate.Can you please confirm the source of the MI had Photos story? By the way PC Alexander has repeatedly chastised the Army for overstating the probability of Sikh demonstrators coming on the streets and thus bungling in to Blue Star.
6.This is plain rumour mongering. There is no evidence to suggest that the cordon had been breached and there were thousands of Sikhs on the street against the state, unless of course you believe the Khalistaanis in which case this argument is futile. Also woodrose was launched to flush out Bhindranwale supporters from local gurudwaras and not to crush the “thousands of lay sikhs who had come to protect the faith” as you claim.
In summary, the Khalistan movement though dangerous was not of the same nature and scale as the Islamic Jehad that India faces on multiple fronts. Therefore comparing 15 years of Sikh terrorism to 1200 years of Islamic savagery is plain wrong.
Thanks
Sunil.
Sunil:
Very good comments on Sikhism. Thanks for a lot of immense work and thought you put, in responding to comments.
In fact one of the reasons, why the Khalistan movement failed, was because there is little ideological sanction (in the Sikkha Panth) to sustain such a movement.
As a bong of East Bengali descent, I would like to propose that we nominate Shourideb Bhattacharyya for the Nobel. He would win in multiple categories. Literature, surely, for stretching the boundaries of human imagination. And possibly Physiology & Medicine, though Freud never did. But hey, can he hold a candle up to our Shourideb when it comes to psychoanalysis?
And I mean that in the nicest possible way.
@Shourideb Bhattacharyya : 🙂 i am a supporter of BJP and hence according to most people here a “communal” person technically, but even i wouldn’t buy that logic 🙂
@Shubs : i second ur proposal 🙂
@ Shubs
your being such a fervent ‘Secular’ person AND being of East Bengali descent seems to validate my hypothesis
K/Hujur/Sunil/etc.:
So, Islam is a barbaric cult preaching hatred. People all over the world belong to any other religion (and aethists and agnostics too, I hope…I wouldn’t want to be left out!) ought to be scared.
Fair enough. Tough to argue against the fact that Islam is an inward looking philosophy that refuses to change with the times, especially after watching the ridiculous events unfolding in Sudan with the British teacher and the teddy bear.
That’s what you guys have been shouting yourself hoarse about.
So, now what? From your posts all I’ve gathered is reiteration upon reiteration of this fact and how much you care about ‘our future’, and how ‘they’ are the danger lurking around the corner.
And your solutions to this ‘kaum khatre mein’ problem?
The khujur proposes mass re-conversion, or insinuates elimination (we don’t know by what means, since the nature of his ‘work’ is a secret, perhaps only given out to privileged people to whom he gives his bhibuti…sorry email id).
Sunil proposes civilized initiatives to be taken up by democratic means. And these initiatives are Uniform Civil Code, eliminate vote bank politics, check illegal immigration, article 370.
I think most of us are in total agreement with him on that. That these initiatives will improve social and political conditions in India, cutting across all religions is another matter. How it will specifically address the problem with ‘bad Islam’ is something I still don’t understand.
But essentially he is preaching to the converted. Any sane Indian will be all for these initiatives, though it is much more difficult to understand most of the black and white views of the world endorsed by him…i.e. how the character of a Muslim criminal rapist in 1947 East Pakistan can be used to draw conclusions about the character of my Muslim friend Amir who works as an IT consultant in Bangalore.
But these are set points of view. I have no hope in hell about changing his, and he should just stop trying to change mine.
Rishi may not though. Well the Jehovah’s Witnesses fundies who turn up at my door every week didn’t. So I don’t hold out much hope for him.
So what’s left? We’ve been told how bad Islam is. Ooookay. And…?
434 comments and that’s all we’ve determined? Tsk, tsk…
@ Shubs
LOL man ur reply was a classic too BTW
To me the problem is — Buddhadev is a huge emotional, egomaniac, arrogant, ineffective administrator. Biman Bose is a clown compared to the ‘effectiveness’ of Anilbabu. Congress, TMC are worst – agreed. But the exposure of CPI(M)’s degeneration has been stupendous under the arrogance of Buddha regime. I am sad to say that the state of Bengal has gone beyond redemption. It used to be a leader – in most aspects – of the nation. But just like every good thing has a shelf date, West Bengal met its “expiry date”.
My schooling was in R.K.Mission. In hindsight, I get perplexed to recount the world view of the “Moharajs” there. Buddha’s trust of any “industrialist” and overzealousness for the so-called “industrialization” makes me think that’s the way our “Moharajs” in school treated the ones who were good in say, maths! Ignorance of the decision maker is not always bliss for the mass.
Shub wrote:
So what’s left? We’ve been told how bad Islam is. Ooookay. And…?
434 comments and that’s all we’ve determined?
Rishi’s response:
That was point no. 1 and 2 of my response to Dipanwita.
Since you are originally from the undivided East Bengal, here is a org that you can very much relate to.
http://www.hrcbm.org (this is a UN supported group)
They are desparately trying to help the latest flood victims in Bangladesh (especially Hindu victims against whom teh government discriminates)
See if it will be possible to arrange a fundraiser in your town or city.
I will provide you the necessary literature.
@ Nilendu
why do you insert your wisecrack about the monks of Ramakrishna Mission on a topic like this? What have you got from the R K Mission school? And what have you given back to your alma mater, may I ask? Will Mission’s extensive work for the less privileged be possible without the monks? A little respect on public forums, may be?
And do you now walk with a swagger with your newfound skills in english that you put the word ‘Moharajs’ in inverted commas twice, taking a snark at the native bengali accent?
seems you have grown up!
Sunil says “The Gita does not preach that no relatives should be spared when it comes to religion. Please read up a little on it and also on the Quran. I am sure you will be able to understand the difference.”
Yeah it does not, you and I being moderate Hindus know that. The moderate Muslim will vouch for Koran being about the all loving Allah. So what does it prove? The Shiv sena/Bajrang Dal does not exist? The Mujahideen does not exist? It is all the way you interpret the book my dear, and it does not have to be Koran or Gita. The hooligans will be there everywhere, and requires balls to control these elements. And balls my dear freind you are born with, it is not inherited property of a particular religion.
Annon says ” some one on this forum asked “why bjp/nda did not bring in uniform civil code while in power” simple answer – to do that would require a 2/3rd vote/morjority in parliament.something that Rajiv Gandhi had and used to over ride supreme court judgement in shah bano case.”
And what my dear freind is stopping BJP/NDA, the champions of Hindutva, to aquire 2/3rd majority in a Hindu dominated country even after 60 years of removing the Islamists with a chunk of flesh – Pakistan?
>> Re Sunil
1. I have seen all that those verses thrown hither and tither, long before the pracharaks and their homies crashed this party …. a good Potemkin Village it makes I must say. Fools anyone who’s gullible and does not stop with a superficial study of issues.
Verbatim translation of cherry picked verses is something that the Mullahs and the Rais do….. it seems that the Hindutva Fundies joyously latched to this to push their own agenda. The bait and witch approach followed by both parties would have been hilarious if not chillingly cynical. Here’s an example-The commentators of the extreme right (Hinduism, Xianity) use the following logic to “show” how Koran calls for Eternal War:-“Arabia was all theirs by 630 A.D, the continued call for Jihad in the later Surah At-Tauba and elsewhere shows that Islam calls for eternal war and hatred against unbelievers”. What they understand is the context of the verse and the still precarious situation of the followers in Arabia. Only another decade or two after Mohd.’s death did the situation in Arabia stabilize…. even seventy years later there were hotly contested religious/secular civil wars in the core regions.
The learning curve of the Koran explictly asks for understanding the “spider net” and the mine-fields and how extensive knowledge of Islamic history, classical Arabic and customs which provide the context of each verse of each surah is necessary for correct interpretations. The theological and sociological debates are quite extensive and while I am not to impressed by the premium they put on one “closed” book I can appreciate the good work they are doing with it even though a lot of water has flowed under the bridge.
The tyrants and warlords and their chelas in the Ulema have used the continuing war concept and other verses in attempts to consolidate their own power or back imperialistic agenda. The Ummayads and the Abbasids used this to conquer exactly that swath of the world which was THE highway of trade and exchanges, viz. the crescent from North Africa to Turkestan. They did exactly that and held it for a long time. Professional plunderers like the medieval Turks and Afghans occasionally used this for raids and conquests into India. Now the successors of those people are using it to goad Muslims against other people all the while claiming that they have enough competence to decide what’s Nasikh and what’s Mansukh and why the clerics are always right and the lay have no right to think.
If non-Muslims are predisposed to the notions that the root of Islam is evil and the tree is poisoned it will push the overwhelmingly normal Muslims into the other camp. I notice that the knickerwaaahs are not calling for debate or building bridges but only about “dharmayuddha” and “revenge” and “sins of the past”. I notice the sophomoric campaign against the the root of Islam and the attempt to convince Hindus that the very foundations of islam are a source of evil….. and that they have to “save the Muslms”. May I point out that this is exactly what the muscular Christians of Victorian era and the utilitarians etc did? And what the evanjehadis are doing now as we speak? It’s sad to see Hindus using this sort of chicanery and claim they are “saving Hinduism”!
>> Re Sunil
2. You haven’t found anything on that…. thats a news flash!.
3., 4. 5. & 6.
First, I must congratulate you on your statement that Op. Woodrose was simply to “flush out Bhindranwale supporters from Gurudwaras.” The official (innocuous) explanation was the round up of Bhindranwale supporters but that doesn’t explain the panicked responses like the Black laws, the MASSIVE Search and Destroy operations across the entire state, control of Gurudwaras (and explicit and rather tactless comments by military spokesmen against all Amritdharis, something the Khalistanis are whipping out as “proof” of the evil GoI), cordoning off Punjab, denying entry to media and the deplyoment of huge number of forces. It also doesn’t explain why even the Punjab Police was left out of it, much to the chagrin of K.P.S. Gill… nor why the DM Venkataraman topped the Hit List. But then, given your brilliant understanding of the military and strategic deployments I guess I can see how you swallowed that “gurudwara control” pill.
Oh, Brar being an officer who took the OSA more seriously than many other servicemen has NOT gone (intentionally) into the finer details of the campaign. He says that the info recieved was from returning devotees but do you think one of the most professional armies in the world would go into such a sensitive operation without HUMINT let alone photo intel, COMINT or SIGNIT? OTOH, other authors like Mark Tully and Brahma Chellaney (not bound by any oaths) have made clear that the MI information on the stocked rations, the pics of the pill boxes and the garrisoning of the Akal Takht led to the army sending the finest units, 10 Guards,the SFF and 1 Para to secure the Akal Takht so that the armor wouldn’t have to damage at least that building. Just think, why did they bring tanks armed with HESh and HE shells in the first place? Was it just for fire support or quick deployment of infantry/para? For that you had BMPs and Skots…. In fact Tully(?) explicitly mentions a senior officer posing as a devotee and taking happy snaps of the fortifications and strong garrisons.
@annonx : says – “And what my dear freind is stopping BJP/NDA, the champions of Hindutva, to aquire 2/3rd majority in a Hindu dominated country even after 60 years of removing the Islamists with a chunk of flesh – Pakistan?”
may be islamic chamchas like u 🙂
i was just stating that fact that 2/3rd majority is required to bring change in constitution.
rajiv gandhi had but mis-used , yes ur secular hero who people like wanderer worship 🙂
>> Re Sunil
Contd. from above…..
It was the hidden MG nests (in 4 points) which cut up the Paras and 10 Guards (and thus stopped them from capturing the Akal Takht) and stalled the SFF that upset the whole apple cart… it led to such a SNAFU that later led to trading of charges b/w Alexander in the PMO and the Army on the parentage of the tragedy. It was the PMO that ordered the commencement of ops after a feverish night meeting, attended by P.C.Alexander himself IIRC after receiving the latest intel. BTW, it wasn’t MI that “over-stated” the probability of more Sikhs joining the terrorists holed up…. it was the RAW and IB which directly reported to the PM and the Cabinet. The sustained radio propaganda from inside the temple and from nankana Sahib are a matter of public record…. the martyrdom anniversary was 27 days away, then why did news reports and observers report Sikh Jathas and private travel groups being organized all across the state and thronging towards Amritsar so early? AFAIK the normal rush starts only 2 weeks before the event.
You may choose to glibly call this “rumormonging” and claim “cordons weren’t breached”, but it happened across the board, it is well documented and was (still is) the most disturbing development in free India. Even in 1967 when the IAF was forced to bomb Aizwal we hadn’t seen the lay gathering like this, it was not as perplexing as it was worrying….
Annon – we know the fact that you are stating and we also know that 2/3rd majority will not be available to morons calling themselves secular on one hand and criminally assaulting and violating what ever they deem mis fit for the India defined by them. Examples:
*In kerala when Mary Roy tried to stage ‘Jesus Christ, Superstar’ at her school
*In the case of Deepa Mehta’s film “Water”
*In the M.F. Husain’s case;
*In the violation of the Bhandarkar Institute;
*In the MS University in Baroda
You want a longer list?
You are the hindu taliban – given a chance you will turn India into a case worse then Afganistan
Wow! Lets just say the sheer number of comments this post generated proves you touched a common chord. Very well written.
>> Re Sunil
Contd.
You are still in denial mode or perhaps didn’t get what I am saying. It wasn’t the “basic tenets of their religion that offset terrorism and bigotry”…. The lay Sikh was freed from the creeping fundamentalism mainly because;
1. It was in the initial, bumbling stages and the GoI could nip it in the bud.
2. The sources of the funding sat on fruit product and Taxi Service dollars, not on strategic resources like oil and petro-dollars…. they could be “managed” at that stage.
3. Presence of large populaces of Nirankaris and Nihangs who were mistreated by the SGPC, fearful of Jat Sikh dominance and who had always opposed separatism and regionalism in fear of their well being if not very existence. (PS: Guess who did the Kar Seva after Blue Star?)
4. Mazhabi caste Sikhs who are living testaments to the fact that despite the best intentions of the Gurus and the tenets, there exists evils like caste systems. Mazhabi Sikhs I am told have high represenatation in certain army regiments … and they stayed away from the whole Khalistan Tamasha.
5. Complicity of ex-secessionists of the SGPC when they found that an upstart had beaten them at their own game. Maybe you should read up what they did in the 3 days of Blue Star and the aftermath.
6. The terrain and of course, the heavy urbanization of Punjab.
7. Presence of a large pool of middle class Sikhs in the police force (drawn from families reliant on agro industries which were heavily subsidized and helped by the GoI) who could clearly see that their life might not be the same again in the hand of dogmatic Sikhs in Black-Blue turbans who wanted theorcratic states and systems.
8. And yes, higher levels of education, prosperity and integration in free India, cultural memory of the injustices against Sikhs under certain Mughals and still raw wounds of the Partition.
It wasn’t Sikh priests or Social Workers of Sauda types who went preaching “basic tenets” that trampled down terrorism in Punjab, was it? It was cognizance of the educated Sikhs, GoI action inside and outside our borders, massive Healing Touch operations (official and non-official) and bullets of the state that ended it.
You are right annon – the Islamic chamchas like me are powerful enough to stop Hindu Taliban. Rajiv Gandhi misused, and the RSS is doing a national service. Recent examples: In the case of Mary Roy trying to stage ‘Jesus Christ, Superstar’ in Kerala, in the case of Deepa Mehta’s film, in the attack on Ajeet Cour’s Academy of Fine Arts in Delhi; in M.F. Husain’s case; in the violation of the Bhandarkar Institute; at MS University in Baroda; there are many many more. Given a chance you will blow away the jama masjid – like the taliban did with bamiyan buddha
Shourideb B:
proving your theory i too am of east bengali origin.
i could take deep offense at your sick assertion but then i want you articulate your sputumous bile so that we can see you for what you are.
that was a pretty sick assertion- that secularism is borne out of guilt and spineless that is inhereted because your ancestors could not prevent the rape of their women or looting of their property.
more noticeable your attempt to marry your prejudice of muslims and secularism to another primitive one like the bangal-ghoti difference is laudable.
maybe east bengalis having suffered to most in partition know more than macho men about the consequences of mixing religion and politics. and more importantly, that too much testosterone can make you grow bitch tits.
>> W.T.F
Hi,
This take by Mr. Shourideb is an old one….. harks back to the Punjab Hindu Sabha days and those “white papers”. However, this load of coffee-shop sociology has been VERY recently re-packaged and sexed up as a “Dove and Hawk game theory” and peddled in certain discussion forums.
BTW, Schadenfreude is not a Nazi term; it simply means “delight in the suffering of others”.
SS-Totenkopf was the wing of Hitler’s SS that guarded the death-camps and manned the Ustashi and Einsatz Death-Squads. It was also the unit responsible for Hitler’s famous purges against both allies and enemies.
I used it in the context of the Sangh’s (BTW, Sanghwaffen is a neologism of mine 😉 ) context ‘coz it was exactly what they wanted to do with Muslims. Wet dreams include “neutralization” and “population transfer” to “restrictions” and “acceptance that Hinduism uber Alles”. (PS: That means- all-aspect Hindu Paramountcy. For all the knickers who can’t stand “Nazi” terminology, it’s a take on the “Deutschland Uber Alles” anthem/slogan used in the German Unification Endeavor way back in the mid 19th century)
I know the convergence of online/stage debates to “comparison with Nazis” is a common phenomena, but I don’t see the harm of using it where it IS pertinent.
@ WTF
To start with my hypothesis had nothing to do with trying to bring up some hoary old ‘bangal-ghoti’ divide at all.
It is a reflection on sick pseudo mids such as yours that will envisage every negative connotation to anyone critical of islam.
It was merely an attempt to explain the mentality of people such as you who will spew their ‘holier than thou’ filthy bile at anyone who wishes to point out something as obvious as the ongoing brutality hindus are subjected to in Bangladesh.
The fact is i was trying to figure out what makes someone so dead set secular in the face of overwhelming evidence.
BTW only a steroid overdose gets u undesirable results. The correct amount of testosterone may actually help in getting rid of ‘Bitch tits’.
TRY IT
PS:
All these claims of “We are not haters, we just want to understand the problem and solve it , you see. Please see my steps 1 2, 3 and 4 and….” is just another version of The Walrus and the Carpenter inviting the Oysters for lunch. Or here’s another Nazi-era allegory (honest!)-“Der Fuehrer schenkt den Juden eine stadt”, something that was used to cover up their “greatest achievement”.
@ WTF and other dedicated secular souls
try reading an excellent book called ‘ A suppressed chapter in history – The exodus of Hindus from East Pakistan and bangladesh 1947-2006’
By Tathagata Roy
A person of east bengali origin i respect very much as i do many members of my own family. My comments were not targeted at all people from that background.
Only certain astoundingly pseudo-secular personalities.
Well,well Arnab. Congrats on one more milestone. After the fire and brimestone above, can we come to cricket please? A post on the classy traditional cricket innings from Jaffer or may be the first century by Dada at home?
Having unfortunately seen Nandigram from close and being held up in the mindlessness created at Park Circus the other day, the above discussion , though very erudite and educated, creates goosebumps – irrespective of which side you are on. After all a bomb thrown or a bullet fired do not check up your religion/beliefs/thoughts before killing you.
And on the second occasion above, I forgot my beliefs. Holed up, I just prayed that the bombs did not get me. Beliefs and religion may go to hell!!!
@ Sunil.
There you go again! You had given a tinywinywhiny list of things to do in the spirit of Idiot’s Guide. Duh! why cannnot you give a staright answer? I thought of adding two cents since you didnot seem it deemed nessacery. Or maybe you had a ‘blank’ before you started the conversation.
Am wondering what made you think that I am giving lectures (I loved the ’empty rhetoric’ which quite balances out the ‘giving lectures’, oh so Kolkata). ‘assure you I am doing everthing I can to ensure that we live in a better India.’
Yes, that precisely what I wanted you write about. Tell me more what do you practise other than passionately CtrlC CtrlV on the keyboard that makes you more passionate about our country and our religion than I am. I am also asking this as you did draw up a list which has nothing new or generic to it. So tell me more so that I know where exactly is the problem in our postion as peace loving individuals.
I was ceratinly amused by your thoughts towards sher’o shayari (Ghalib must be tossing in his grave), am glad that you are not restricting yourself in that field also. Keep up the good work, “taruck ke peechey’.
@ Khujur!
Dipanwita singing with sheer delight on recieving the access code aka email id “Ticket to hinduwood, my ticket to hinduwood…” I will write back to you later on this forum. I am sure it’s for the good of all that you unveil the plans right here, right now. Am sure, the sheer number of comments would surelt draw in more readers. Magic words “moolah..mollah…” (rhymes so beautifully with mullah).
More the mullah = More the moolah!!.
I will surely write back to your kind of generic gibberish. See ya on Monday, on this blog.
@ Hujur.
“Oohh Hooojoooooooooooooooooooooooooorrr……………”
Hello Wanderer,
On Bloody verses in Quran,
Your logic that the verses have been used and are being used to propagate hatred and conquest and plunder ans we should not allow ourselves to judge a religion on the basis of that is phenomenally naive.
Do you want me to believe that a religion that has sanctified murder and pillage and forbidden anyone from questioning it is not bloody just because you think that the verses have been used by Plunderers to create stability for their own benefit? If that is the case does it make the religion less culpable in inciting violence? If that were the case would not the plunderers disband the verses after attaining victory? What motivated them to rule according to those bloody verses. What drove them to go to great lengths to ensure that they followed the Quranic Injunctions to the T even after they had attained stability and personal fortune?
I am impressed by the depth of your knowledge on this but I cannot accept a line of reasoning that says that Islam is innocent just because it has been used for political ends by errant plunderers. In fact it is the other way around. It has lent inspiration (by its very objective and design) to the plunderers to engage in loot, murder and pillage. The evidence found in 1200 years of wanton destruction is overwhelming on this count.
Thanks
Sunil.
Hello Wanderer,
2. You haven’t found anything on that…. thats a news flash!.
Yes I have not found anything about the bloody history of Buddhism in your reference to Sternberg. I would advise you to have a re look as well. I am sure you too will find nothing. For starters click on the Wiki link I sent you in the last post.
Thanks
Sunil
Hello Wanderer,
I am quite disappointed by the fact that you have gone on write treatise upon treatise on strategy in Kashmir and Khalistan on the basis of assumptions and assertions that you have not backed up with a single source. In fact every time I ask you for one you open a new set of discussions. I will still try to answer you, but my humble request to you is to cite sources and reference before making sweeping statements since I don’t want this discussion to turn in to a game of “I know more than you do but won’t tell you how”.
On Points 4,5 and 6
1. On Woodrose: In the absence of any information to the contrary it is only logical assume the statement of the Army regarding the nature of the operations. Now you are most welcome to create conspiracy theories and rely on Khalistani propaganda to come to the conclusion that the operation was designed to quell the “thousands of Sikhs who rose against the state”. I will not believe you unless there is credible evidence to back up your theories.
Please don’t think that you can prove a point by questioning somebody else’s skills (like you have questioned my strategic knowledge). I am quite aware of the depth of knowledge you posses when it comes to strategy (from your post on Kashmir) and have highlighted it in my response to your post on Kashmir with references.
2. On Intelligence: Please read Brar’s interview with Rediff. Brar himself had gone in to the Harmandar Sahib to collect intelligence. Even then he sent in the para because he admits the strength of the fortifications surprised him. An APC was later brought in to give cover but it was hit by a rocket from the Takht. Brar then asked for tanks so that the lights could be used to blind the fighters inside the Takht. When that failed, out of desperation he ordered the Tanks to use their main guns on the Takht.
Your assertion that the Army knew fully about the strength of the fortifications and had pre planned the usage of HE rounds is coming straight from a Khalistaani website, just like your assertion that no APCs were used. Next you are going to say that the Army had practiced razing the Harmandar Sahib with tanks on a model somewhere in UP, just like our Khalistaani brethren.
3. On Lay Sikhs breaking the cordon: OK so news reports observed Sikh Jathas in Preparation 27 days in advance to the Martyrdom ceremony instead of the usual 15 and hence there were huge number of “Sikhs that rose up against the state”. Ahem. Thank you sir, but I am not going to able to accept this line of logic unless you provide better evidence. I am not denying that that many lay Sikhs were disturbed by the Siege and wanted to demonstrate but your assertion of a “mass uprising against the state” are fallacious.
Since you are so fond of KPS Gill – here is what he says about terrorism in Punjab
“Unfortunately, certain inveterate delusions that preclude the possibility of a fitting response to militant violence have established themselves in the minds of the political leadership of Punjab. A group of ‘interested’ politicians and activists, whose role during the period of the ascendancy of terror was more than ambiguous, are now vigorously projecting, and seeking to popularise, a myth that terrorism was defeated in Punjab, not by police action, not by the force of arms, but because it simply ‘lost popular support’. This fable has been repeated so often, at every available opportunity and forum, that its advocates, if no one else, now appear to place all their faith in its explanatory efficacy. But are we to understand, on this argument, that terrorism ‘returned’ to Punjab because it had, in the first few months of 1997, inexplicably regained ‘popular support’?
There are several dangers inherent in this manifestly specious argument. The first of these is the insidious suggestion that terrorism did, at one time, enjoy overwhelming ‘popular support’ in Punjab. Despite the comprehensive disruption of the entire machinery of the State, and of the normal lives of the people that the terrorists successfully engineered for over ten years, there is no reason to believe that a majority, or even a substantial proportion, of the common people, were ever behind them. Certainly, there was a measure of support in the area along the borders of Pakistan. This was largely restricted to what is referred to as the Majha region, comprising mainly the tract lying between the river Beas and the Pakistan border, and essentially covering only two districts – Amritsar and Gurdaspur. Even within these confines, support was only partial and restricted to rural areas; though submission to the terror was – at least for some time – absolute. The peculiar susceptibility of the people of this region to the creed of the Kalashnikov raises important questions; history, culture, economics and a unique constellation of political forces will all have a part in any answer to these questions, but the search for such answers is not our present purpose. I am sure that scholars from these various disciplines will eventually be able to provide a satisfactory explanation for this conundrum. For our purposes, it is sufficient to note that this was the terrorist heartland; and even here, the large number of dissenting voices that had to be mercilessly silenced by the terrorists are evidence to the fact that their support was far – I would assert, immeasurably far – from unanimous.”
P.S: I am still waiting for your reference on the 1035 men who mutinied from 9th Sikh. My reference is in an earlier post. I am also still waiting for your references on how the Army is primarily to fight China and not take on irritating Goat Jockeys.
Thanks
Sunil
Hello Wanderer,
On your points about why the Khalistan Movement failed.
1. It was in the initial, bumbling stages and the GoI could nip it in the bud – It was actually exacerbated by high handed Govt Actions initially. I thought you said it was the single greatest threat to the country even greater than Kashmir. In your own words the Sikhs are not clowns and definitely not bumble bees.
2. Incorrect – The Sikhs are the second most prosperous community in India. If they wanted funds for war they need not have relied on Fruit/Taxi Service money. Why is it easier to control fruit/taxi service money as compared to Petro Dollars??
3. Pure conjecture – You also falsely assume that Nihangs are different from Akalis who run the SGPC and were at the forefront of the separatist movement. See link to understand the connection between Nihangs and Akalis – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akali.
4. Again pure conjecture. How can high representation in the army mean that they will stay away from terrorism. Jat Sikhs have a very high representation in the Army, but they did participate vigorously in terrorism. By the way neither has Islam – See link – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_among_South_Asian_Muslims
5. Agreed.
6. Agreed.
7. Could have been factor but it does not seem to work in case of Islam where educated people strap bombs to themselves and blow up trains.
8. Partially true.
But you have forgotten the Biggest and most important reason for Khalistan not going the Jihad way – And that is lack of SANCTION from Sikhi. They could not find one reason to justify killing people on the basis of religion and hence never had popular support. There fore in spite of Operation Tupac and the violence unleashed by Bhindranwale it was not the Sauda types or the Sikh Granthis that kept the masses from “rising against the state” but core philosophy of Sikhi.
Thanks
Sunil.
Hello Annonx,
Moderate Mmuslims might feel that Islam is peace loving, but there are Injunctions, quotes and exhortations in the Quran against that feeling, not to mention 1200 years of Bloody History. No such Injunctions exist in the Geeta.
Thanks
Sunil
Hello Shubs,
“How it will specifically address the problem with ‘bad Islam’ is something I still don’t understand.”
Firstly thank you for bein in agreement with me for once.
Please try to suggest this to a Maulvi or a Muslm political leader and you will better understand what the problem with Islam is, forget “bad Islam”
Thanks
Sunil.
@ WTF:
I think The Wanderer had missed out our previous discussions where we had gone throught the fallacy of using Nazi terminology to sound “uber cool”.
@ Wanderer
Ustashi…Totenkopf an all….way out of context..might work in a dicotheque debate where some people get impressed by cool sounding german words (maye here they do too)
“Jannisaari” would have come closer to the context …but then again it would have put back the culpability on Islam 🙂
Dipanwita:
As you would want, lets have more discussion on the “Action Item” part of our discussion. If you say Monday..Monday it is.:)
@ Others especially Wanderers who tried their best to play down Koran’s culpability….
Hey try using the same logic u used, to save Nazism arse, you will find it fitting like a glove there too.
As I say the relative moderation in some Muslims, compared to others, is because they are less influenced by the Koran.
@ shourideb b/macho man randy savage:
“The fact is i was trying to figure out what makes someone so dead set secular in the face of overwhelming evidence.”
that’s real rich dude. if you have to think so hard as to why the seperation of the state and religion is considered one of the greatest innovations in human politics in the last 300 years then i think the problem lies with you.
do you know what traditional hindu law is like? do you want to marry some pyscho and not be able to divorce her? do you want to be unable to adopt a child because he’s not from the same caste?
defending a generalization of islam and thereby all muslims is not the same as condoning the regressive mentality that many of its practioners exhibit. comprende?
by your comments this regresive mentality is not the sole monopoly of muslim fundamentalists alone.
im most interested to hear what mental diseases the ‘presumption of innoncence’ or the constitutional ‘division of powers’ have emerged from.
excuse me.. as an effete person of east bengali origin i have to go do my nails..
@ rishi/wanderer:
i doubt if the wanderer needs to use german references to sound uber cool. his writing is uber cool anyway.
on the other hand, this also means that he’s too good a writer to use german words without nazi connotations with one’s that do, without being aware of the allusion he is creating.
here is the problem. the allusion is so aesthetically well done (unlike say when Arundhati Roy banashees about it) that its hard to pull him up on the logical fallacy.
i just wanted to point that out. i love the prose though i still believe that the comparison is stretched. its anyone’s prerogative to use it though with the attached logical drawbacks.
the sangh parivar is yet to set up industrial complexes to gas people despite the ideological similarities in tone (mother culture etc).
@ rishi:
“less influenced by the Koran..”
noo.. surely that’s not possible mr. khujur.
because then your whole grand theory of the subliminal hypnotic influence of the koran on the pysche all muslims would fall flat.
you havent answered my query on mass conversion as the solution to the islam question.
also i am glad to hear you worry about other issues. you didnt mention poverty. 1.5 lakh farmer suicide in 10 years. see that. that’s a real problem.
@ WTF:
Mass reversion from Islam back to Hinduism….very much desirable.
But Hindus have to do their homework first (and set their house in order for that to happen more effectively). Establishment of “Roti-Beti” connection with the newly reverted Hindus is of paramount importance.
1.5 lakh farmers commiting suicide in 10 years. Very much a real problem.
@ WTF:
Symptomatic of the larger problems of population explosion and resource managament (energy to biodiversity).
@annonx- “Recent examples: In the case of Mary Roy trying to stage ‘Jesus Christ, Superstar’ in Kerala, in the case of Deepa Mehta’s film, in the attack on Ajeet Cour’s Academy of Fine Arts in Delhi; in M.F. Husain’s case; in the violation of the Bhandarkar Institute; at MS University in Baroda; there are many many more. Given a chance you will blow away the jama masjid – like the taliban did with bamiyan buddha”
ahem- did u forget Taslima and Da Vinci…
oh yes and btw, breaking furniture of bhandarkar institute is same as hanging infidels by tree, issuing fatwas on poor daughter-in-law raped by her father-in-law…
🙂 tum toh mahan ho bhai…
WTF:
“less influenced by the Koran..”
noo.. surely that’s not possible mr. khujur.
because then your whole grand theory of the subliminal hypnotic influence of the koran on the pysche all muslims would fall flat.
Rishi’s response:
How so WTF. The lesser the Koran effects an individual the lesser the Islamic aptitude.
Scrap the Koran…you are free from Islamic aptitude.
Recall the Osama example i gave to “s”.
You take the Koran away from Osama bin Laden, he will turn into a Salman Rushdie.
comprende?
>> Re Sunil
Oh, I “asserted no APCs were used in Blue Star”, did I? I must then infer you are either clueless or simply a liar.
Maye you don’t know that the MMGs fixed on Skots and BMP-1s used is more than enough to provide cover fire and even knock down non-RCC structures. The 16th Cav was in position to do exactly that and then sent in dismount squads through the back hatch. You use tanks with squash head shells or HE rounds only when you are up against fortified buildings. If you think the Army is dumb enough to bring in squadrons of Tanks (as if it’s a side order of Tangri Kebab) or contend that this “conjecture” is a “Khalistani lie” there’s a couple of (non-German) phrases that would fit you to a T.
They did not want to use the tanks at first…. and wouldn’t have used them if the fortified Akal Takht was captured. They used squash shells in such a way as to shake the building by shock waves and flush out the terrorists by the maddening vibrations…. and of course the falling masonry. The fact the the Akal Takht was left standing (though not in mint condition, it suffered just 30% destruction) despite nearly HUNDRED such shells being fired into it stands testament to the fact that the Army perfectly knew what they ultimately might have to deal with. Also note that the majority of the Akal Takht terrorists killed died of small arms fire as they exited the building that had become a tuning fork (Bhindranwale and Amreek Singh and Shabegh Singh being some of them). Captured terrorists have gone on record saying that the entire HQ started coming out of their holes after the pounding began and Bhindranwale personally ordered some to try and escape in the confusion of the break-out attempt.
— —- — — — —
BTW, I noted your hectoring for proof and hilarious hand waving that “I am opening new set of discussions”. (Yeah right, like you provided proof and IEC standard footnotes for your brilliant uvaachas). The cheapest cut was in claiming my sources came from Khalistani sites… you have any idea what fantastic claims on Blue Star are actually given out there? I had ALREADY pointed out Mark Tully’s book as a source. Brahma Chellaney’s series of articles, the only time he went against the establishment before the Nuke Deal, has oodles of gory info on the operation. Particularly sensational pieces are those by Shekhar Gupta (‘specially the one with his infamous pic) and the India Today special which has perhaps the best picture reporting. Brar is of course superfluous to mention here, but I have already pointed out that there are big information gaps on operations which I am sure he intentionally left out. It’s clear you ain’t knowledgeable enough on these matters to ID the gaps or read between the lines.
On that note lemme say I ain’t here to spoon feed you or the like of you…. but I don’t tire of any patented tangential-drives or tennis-match and hand waving and leave in disgust/fatigue leaving your types to gloat “Hey, I got the last word! I got the last word! ” (I notice Khujur Mian thrives on this cheap trick….). And what next, you want me to call down the ghost of General Vaidya?
PS: Folks, please check that very series of Rediff interviews with Brar where he explicitly mentions the fears of large scale Police mutiny, mass agitations converging from rural Punjab….. and check this out, says that personnel from the Army and Police were already crossing over. BTW, Shahbegh Singh was THE ONE who wrote the book on deep cover “hearts and minds” warfare, the one who was the IA liaison to the Mukhtibahni deep in Paki held East Bengal. Even if they didn’t have a shred of inside info or intel, the army would have gone in leaving nothing to chance ‘coz they knew who they were dealing with.
rediff dot com/news/2004/jun/03inter dot html
(PPS: I have changed the format of the url so that the blog software won’t put me on queue.)
BTW, I respect K.P.S. Gills’ view and I know the Gurdaspur region was especially dynamite… but then why was Op Woodrose launched across the entire state? Why martial law across all of Punjab by large army formations if only a few villagers were under the sway of the terrorists then? But then maybe you ain’t aware of the true extent, the depth or the impact of Op Woodrose…..
——- ——– ——– ———-
>> References for Indian Army deployements in J&K
Now it’s nuggets like these that make me sure you ain’t looking for “proof”, but simply want to filibuster and earn brownie points. How about a little digging into army deployments of India, China and Pakistan in the “roof of the world”, the brief of the field formations, the field of ops of these formations in Jammu & Kashmir? I am sure you will be surprised at what you learn.
And why does Pakistan want the northern parts with all those Buddhists and Shias? That region is the BIGGEST freshwater resource in the word, is on commanding height over the FCNA’s forces in the Saltoro and flanks the arterial Karakoram Highway of Pakistan.
——– ————-
>> 1035 mutineers source
It’s easy to see how you pulled out the “500 odd” mutineer number… thats what turns up in Google, right (from the Sikhtimes link)? 😛
Now remember that there were TWO separate mutinies from that unit. One was by the greenhorns in the regimental centre who killed their C.O. plus other officers and the other by a detachment that was in Ganganagar. I am sure the number in that book was 1035 (or 1095, I’m anyway sure it was over 1000) and that the battalion was disbanded and all men dishonorably discharged. I admit I am at a loss for source to back up my number right now, will bring it up soon.
PS: A company of Sikh troops stationed in Tripura also reportedly deserted on June 12(?), 1984, but the single source (NYT) is not exactly 22 carat. They quote a UNI news report but the name of the Rgtt is never mentioned.
——————
>> Baron Ungern-Sternberg
Have you tried OUTSIDE Google for this, perhaps that book I mentioned in that post or any other source? 🙂
>> Re Sunil
1. “High handed INITIAL actions”.
Wow… thats news! If anything, the GoI did not take action in the 1981-1983 period. Some of us do know about Jagat Narain butchered for his honesty and DIG Atwal who was killed as he walked away after receiving the prasad, right inside the temple….. and the inaction despite widespread calls for reprisal actions. Till late 1983 the GoI was hoping to defuse the event in a silent way (it had some skeletons in the cupboard too), it was after the developments right before Blue Star and during it that it changed from velvet gloves to the iron fist.
The fact that sent the GoI apesh1t was this response of large number of Sikhs to a charlatan like Bhindranwale and the horrible consequences it entails.
2. Sigh… this response from someone “who has been to London Gurudwaras”, I think something doesn’t smell all right in Denmark.
PS: Is it plain naivety that you are asking me how Petro Dollars are different from “Fruit” Dollars? Heck, this level of geopolitical knowledge is expected from even an average Desi!
Anyway, here’s why dollars is preferable to Indian rupees in things like this. Do you think it is feasible buying arms from the black market, ask for viable collateral and get it washed in different points and then blanketed under the “do numbri” rackets running outta wall Street (no less!) with poor Indian rupee earned by the rich desi Sikh? The squeeze on foreign funding DIRECTLY led to Sikh terrorists going into narcotics and Indian underworld rackets (remember the opening scenes of “Shootout in Lokhandwala”?) where their “services” and “products” can ballast buying of arms from Eastern Europe and Latin America.
3. My dear Sunil Mian, is your English that weak that you inferred that I said “Nihangs are separate from Akalis”? I clearly said there were groups in the Nihangs and Nirankaris who were fearful of the “establishment” that was under the thumb of that caste of Sikhs.
Was the Buddha Dal the only Nihang sect that was not sidelined (if not attacked) by the likes of Bhindranwale and the SGPC gasbags before them? And are you claiming that Nirankaris (and other sects like Manodharis and the various Deras) are represented well in the SGPC?
4. Sunil Mian, the Mazhabi Sikhs were given some sembelance of honour only after the british recognized their fighting skills. In the British Great game Episode called “Race for Chitral” a company of Mazhabis who acted as Porters and road-builders was forced to fight and gave the Afghans and the tribals such an a$$-whooping that from then on Mazhabis were drwan in large numbers. The Guards Rgtt and the Pioneers as well as many battalions of the Sikh Light Infantry have LARGE number of Mazhabis. So how do you expect these people, who are not represented in the temple committees and mistreated (guess why Buta Singh’s search for Kar Sevak was rudely ridiculed by two Nihang groups, even though they were mortal enemies of Bhindranwale?) to react when they are asked to turn against the source of their respect and newfound position?
There are many Jat Sikhs in the Army, but they are well represented in the committees and most expatriate Sikhs are Jats. The state of India was not the only source of their honor/position…. and many crooks from the community thought they could do even better if they do a Gaddaar movement.
Contd.
7. That was a cheap, sweeping statement. But why ain’t I surprised….
Even in the heydays of the Kashmir Terrorism VERY FEW numbers of the Kashmiri Police went over. This was despite the crazed euphoria that caught the imagination of many a Kashmiri. While there were KP troopers firing shots into the air to warn terrorists of arriving Army forces or simply turning Nelson’s Eye, there were many who risked life and limb and boycott to operate the SOGs, muffle the blaring loudspeakers of the JKLF and share Police Intel with outside units from the Army.
8. There’s no Sikhi tenet that calls for caste system in Sikhism. There are no tenets that “require” other Gurus and there are rulings that explicitly put down the dictum that the book is the last Guru. There are no Sikh tenets for singling out Hindus and massacring them. There are no Sikhi tenets that “identified enemies of the faith” and asked followers “to eliminate him/her”. There are no Sikhi tenets which advise true followers to lay traps and kill the young ones from the enemy camp wherever they find them. There are no Sikhi tenets that say the sanctity of a place of worship can be used to wage total war.
But things didn’t exactly turn that way, did it?
Re Sunil
>>If that were the case would not the plunderers disband the verses after attaining victory? What motivated them to rule according to those bloody verses?
The verses were written/spoken years before…. and “set for eternity” as they were “revealed truths”. But they were given in a context and asked to apply it to similar situations making liberal use of their own intellect. It is similar to any other scripture which is written down years and years ago, but interpretations and commentaries are freely made down the years. The original text is not changed per se, but it is utilized in the new context. Now the tragedy of Islam is the narrow mindedness, cynicism, tribalism imparted (due to many reasons) in making the interpretations and commentaries down the years. The Ummayid age saw bitter civil wars like the Ridda Wars and the Greek Tragedies like the Battle of the Camel and Battle of Karbala. The Abbasid age saw a bold attempt at renaissance that was met by a violent backlash called the Minha and the death of Hanbali in the process made things even worse. It is the compounding effect of the first victory, viz. victory of the petty Tribal fundae (Honor and Dignity, territorialism, Total War, Ghanima, Give no Quarter) that’s the backbone of the Arab society that led to the state we have now. You propagate a lie and a view point for a long time, it becomes the gospel even if it is totally against the spirit of the logos. The absence of the Caste System in the fossilized, exploitative form in the original Hindu Texts as against what we see now is a prime example.
The effect of the Center of Gravity swinging from Arabia to historically barbaric Turan (in 13th cent.) made things even worse. This was compounded by the bitter cultural experiences of the Crusades and the loss of paramountcy to Europe soon after. The latter proved to be quite indigestible for most Muslims and they thought it happened ‘coz they were not Muslim enough. Allah apparently chose them for eternal victory as long as the covenant is held true…. the loss of power and prestige ergo means that they are not good Muslims! This was best described by a pal of mine who said “Muslims instead of climbing out of the hole they fell into, started digging deeper”. The teachings of Waliullah down to luminaries of modern Jihad like Syed Qutub and Maududi reflect exactly this. It is quite childish actually, but it’s this “bad loser” attitude that’s leading to the reactionary Islamist Violence while other religions are more or less out of parochial and narrow concepts. There are millenarian and Nihilist and downright kooky takes which also lead to militant islam, but the chief reason is the inability to arrive at correct diagnosis of their fall from paramountcy. Incorrect diagnosis leads to incorrect medication and that leads to quite unpleasant scenarios… like we are seeing now.
I am not putting gloss on Islam or playing the Apologetic, but we Kufr must not make an incorrect analysis of what really happened. Reactionary responses and brinkmanship would lead to the closing the vicious circle and would lead to meltdown. Like what some Western gurus say, “aid in the peaceful revival of Muslims” (as in “aid in peaceful rise of dangerously adolescent China). What is required is building bridges, deal with violent elemenst with extreme prejudice, reach out to the fearful and silent moderates….. and not duking it out with them in the name of some tinpot Afghan mass-murderer from 1000 yrs ago. This does not mean we have to be saddled with the debts/problems of Muslim nations or communities but simply means we must not further strain the ties that bind the Muslims to the state and to their fellow non-Muslims by innuendo/”revenge” or by playing right into the hands of divisive elements from both sides of the spectrum. What is required is to get the Turk and Arab outta our Muslims and integrate them into the society… by hook or by crook. I must say we wasted a golden opportunity in the years following independence and instead went for vote-banks and mollycoddling of unsavory elements.
BTW, while a response aimed in resolution through outright conflict will prolly result in the victory of us Kufr, the costs would be enormous. Why do that while easier and still viable alternatives are still available? A “War of Civilizations” would raise the stock of some knickerwaalah honcho or some Evanjehadi safe in their fortresses but lay people like us will get caught in the crossfire.
Ahhh… gotta climb from this soapbox now. But I hope I touched a chord in the mind of at least ONE reader here…..
@ Wanderer
In all that you wrote, this quote from you below, is the gist:
“”What is required is to get the Turk and Arab outta our Muslims and integrate them into the society… by hook or by crook””.
Rishi’s response
You cannot get the Turk and Arab out of a Muslim witout severing the Koran. In fact, you cannot get the Arab out of a Turk also without mitigating the Kuran. Mustafa Kemal Attaturk tried.
As for your hook and crook methodology, 🙂
You try the hook, I try the crook.
Remember the hammer and anvil I spoke of before.
Thanks for your all you wrote.
@wanderer : how do u bullshit with such a straight face?
@ All:
Funny and how ironic… 🙂 🙂
“The Wanderers” profound statement, ”What is required is to get the Turk and Arab outta our Muslims and integrate them into the society… by hook or by crook”.
MATCHES EXACTLY with
what the Hindutva groups, mainly the Sangh as been talking about since the 1940s.
I personally do not think though, that can be done as long as the Muslims believe in the Koran. I have had lengthy debates about this with some of the Sangh ideologues in India and I think the “Maharaja Ranjit Singh model” has the best chance of success.
>>Re Khujur
Eeeeewwwwwwwwww…..comparing me with Sangh luminaries! I sure need a Dettol bath. I have read exactly how some these great poo-bahs seek to “get the Arab outta the Indian Muslim” and let me say it has about the finesse of raping with scimitar. I am advocating NOTHING like that (i.e. if things don’t actually melt down)…. should have clarified that when I said “hook or by crook”.
The “Hammer and Anvil” might not work ‘coz cornered folks put up excellent and damaging fights…. and I personally don’t believe in that sort of “conflict resolution”, ‘specially if it’s Indian citizens we are talking about. BTW, a version of the “Good Cop, Bad Cop” routine is used in geopolitical games (‘specially by the West) to get information on the pecking order, light up the “wheels within wheels” and understand the dynamics of Muslim societies though. In India, the GoI/establishment follows a different approach…..
@ The Wanderer
You underestimate the “Hammer and Anvil”.
@ Sociologically, the “Hammer and Anvil” worked very well under Swami Shraddhanand in West Punjab, Sri Choitonno in Bengal, and as mentioned before politically under Ranjit Singh.
@ rishi:
mass muslim ‘reversion’ (HA HA good one!)…
so basically religious freedom will be like the model T ford. you can have in any colour you want as long as its saffron.
best of luck imposing a uniform anything (religion,language etc) in a country like India. if m.s. gowalkar was the first prime minister, today India would consist of UP and Bihar.
you wouldn’t know national integration if it jumped up and bit you in the ass… read wanderers reply to your misunderstanding his statement carefully.
@ WTF
yeah I get that quite well…the second highest terror attacks in the world and where a 85% population fears to take a jagannath or durga procession through their own cities for the fear of getting doused in acid bulbs.
I get that quite well 🙂
@ WTF
am I surprised u didnt bring up Gujrat,Maharashtra (Golwalkar’s own state) and Rajasthan bfore u brought up UP and Bihar? 🙂
@ rishi:
oh so that’s why no durga puja happened in Calcutta this year.
@WTF
aar para jaye na…eto bojahleo bojhe na
http://newshopper.sulekha.com/news/2007/11/muslims-attack-durga-puja-pandal-in-west-bengal-one.htm
@ rishi:
oooh… citing the organiser now are we?
you expect me to believe that ‘tonic shiekh’ learnt arabic, rigorously read the koran in original and was divinely inspired to organize an attack against pujas in remote Indian villages.
if i recall correctly, the bajrang dal said that they regretted the murder of graham staines and it did not reflect their ideology.
criminals do shit. only morons ascribe their religious backgrounds to them.
I wasnt aware that Paschimpara of Rudranagar under Murarai sub-division of Birbhum district was an apt reflection of India.
@ maharashtra, gujarat
if you try and impose hindi on marathis and gujaratis they are going to cede from india in a heart beat. some linguistic chauvinist would land up and do it a la Bal Thackerey in RSS-land. maybe MP would remain with Bihar and UP in RSS-land. i missed that.
the ‘mother-culture’ never united india in the past and will never do it in the future. why? because it doesn’t exist.
‘defending a generalization of islam and thereby all muslims is not the same as condoning the regressive mentality that many of its practioners exhibit. comprende?’
Senor, I have no issues with the ‘presumption of innocence’ and separation of the state from religion.
The fact is of all the cults and religions that infest this planet this one cult is exceedingly dangerous in the fact that it condones the use of violence much more leniently on people who simply differ in their beliefs.
The essence of this philosophy is to use the different beliefs of any other human to justify violent action against them for political, ideological or economic benefit.
anyways why am i coming back to square one, i am sure Rishi and other such folks have had this discussion with u. The damage done by pseudos such as we see here is this:
In the not too distant future there will be an almighty bloodbath in the streets of calcutta like the great calcutta killings in the past. The only thing to save a lot of innocent people from a bloodthirsty muslim mob will be the Indian army. But the Indian army will be a few hours or days too late in deployment due to political pressure to treat the muslim mob with kid gloves due to the pseudo-secular establishment.
In those crucial few hours hundreds of innocent lives will be lost. Their blood will be on every pseudo-seculars hands.
Thats about it, comprede?
I so agree with Rishi khajur and Shourideb; but dere’s no use trying toconvince the “secularists”; their doggedness is only paralleled by the indian commies who swear by communism even after the countries of its birth rejected it!
See this disgusting interview by Arundhati Roy. She is posing as a know-all :
http://www.ibnlive.com/videos/53442/cm-used-taslima-to-shift-focus-from-nandigram.html
I doubt she will utter he words islamic mob ever.
@ WTF
Hindi is a language, HINDU is DHARMA
You know the difference na.
You almost sound like those Americans who watch Bollywood movies once in a while and then come to you and say “I know Pakistanis follow Islam, and Indians follow “Hindi”…lol 🙂
Or are you trying to shift into language parochialism to divert the focus?
@ Shourideb
Stay in touch.
see what gujarat muslims have to say of “merchant of death” and “butcher of gujarat”
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20070034393
actually, i remember nehru saying something in the discovery of india, about how hindi used to mean ‘from hindustan’ and is the correct word for ‘indian’, but now (now as in 1950s) is only used to signify the language….
of course, i may be totally wrong
and maybe this point isnt very relevant to the topic,
in that context the sentence ‘indians follow hindi’ is still stupid, but only because its like saying ‘the british follow english(ism?)’
SDG puts the “secularists” way of functioning exactly – “If both the Congress and BJP in Gujarat are preoccupied with basic development issues, why is the poll perceived as a litmus test of secularism by the chattering and editorial classes of metropolitan India? The answer, it seems to me, lies in the fact that Modi’s opponents want to have the **best of both worlds**. If Modi wins on the strength of his record of governance and the leadership he has provided, it will be presented as a triumph of hate. The Chief Minister will then continue to be berated as an ogre and his performance ignored. If Modi is defeated by an aggregate of local factors, like the disgruntlement over 406 more husbands beating up their wives, it will be presented as a decisive rejection of “communal politics”. It’s all very convenient.”
Wanderer said “..I hope I touched a chord in the mind of at least ONE reader here…”
@Wanderer: You certainly did that dude. I am a Muslim Indian. You very clearly put in what I have in mind about this topic and much more.
-jb
@ The Wanderer
(and WTF, Ravi Ivaturi, Sayon)
Do read this book if you get a chance. It is by a former IB Official. Wanderer, you will find a lot of discussion relevent to our “Hammer and Anvil” context.
—————————————-
Islam and Religious Riots – A Case Study: Riots and Wrongs
R N P Singh
ISBN : 8189072005
Year Of Publication : 2004
Bibliography : 360 pages, 23 cm. Hard Cover Price : US$25
About the Book
Indian civilisational stream was impeded for several centuries. It struggled and survived through tornado of Islamic and Imperial invasion, which blew other civilizations to smithereens. Efforts to revitalize, revive and reassert this great civilisation and restore the continuity were made by Rishis, Mahatmas and intellecturals of this ancient land for over a century, which accelerated the process and led the road to freedom. Unfortunately, the ideal of Ram Rajya set by Mahatma Gandhi, which provided the ideological basis of our freedom, became anathema to the post independent polity, politicians, intellectuals and establishments. Even the goal of the Ram Rajya came to be regarded as narrow, sectarian, communal and even dangerous.
As Swamy Vivekananda said, it is given to the Hindus by destiny to discover the idea of Universal validity of all faiths and ways of life and share it with the rest of the world. This inclusive idea, which validates all Gods, faiths, peoples and way of life, is the ultimate destination of the journey of humanity and the final guarantee for global and national peace.
About the Author
The author of the book Ram Naresh Prasad Singh is a retired officer of the Intelligence Bureau, Government of India. He was a distinguished officer and was honoured with President Police Medal, Indian Police Medal, Sukriti and Kautilya awards.
Contents
Islam and Conflict
A Fresh Look
Peaceful Co-existence an Anathema to Islam (READ THIS CHAPTER)
Why Hindu Muslim Synthesis failed (READ THIS CHAPTER)
Communalism and Communal riots
Single Dimensional Approach to Riot
Realistic Perspective of Communal Riots
Communal riots in India: Chronological overview
PS to previous post:
KPS Gill writes in the foreword to the book “Much of the ‘secular’ discourse in India has been based on a ‘politically correct’ refusal to confront the nature of religious communities and institutions, and their past and present activities; and on the fiction that ‘all religions are equal’ and that their inherent message is the same.The truth is, unless communities acknowledge reality – warts and all – and recognize the transgressions of their own history within a constructive context, no real solution to the issues of communal polarization and violence in India can be brought about”.
I couldnt have said it better.
“..I hope I touched a chord in the mind of at least ONE reader here…”
omg…wot drama…need some tissues?
Hello everyone,
I have been keenly following the discussions in this blog and more particularly in this post and frankly speaking it has been an enormous learning experience for me.
I have realised there that there are secularist and pseudo secularist;
intellectuals and pseudo intellectuals; and dangerous ideologies like Islam which is a very infringement on freedom of thouught (and not just the rhetoric)
I would like to congratulate GB for creating such a forum.
And also I feel the points raised in this discussion by Rishi and others should be published as a book (may be building upon the transcript of the discussions) and every politician in India should read it:)
Khagen Das (common man)
@ shourideb b:
you’re venting your frustrations about excessive liberalism against the wrong person in the wrong debate.
nice attempt though to discredit secularism by citing how politicians or ultra liberals pervert it.
@ rishi:
imposing hinduism is only a small part of the rss ideologue.
the Sangh’s simplistic understanding that the some problems of the human condition can be solved by one religion/culture for everyone is reflected by you misunderstanding me to to confuse hindi with hinduism. also, that’s exactly what the koran thinks too btw.
gb da has a new post. i doubt if i’ll return to this one.
Hello Wanderer,
My apologies for the delay in response.
On Bluestar:
1. My apologies for assuming that you said no APCs were used. I got the impression that you were trying to imply that the usage of tanks was premeditated. I only wanted to prove that it was out of desperation and not pre ordained.
2. Brar says that there was a fear that police would have crossed over. Never does he say that the police had crossed over.
3. The Army feared there to be large scale demonstrations in Punjab when the news of the Harmandar Sahib being under siege was disseminated in an exaggerated form. This is no proof of your assertion that there were actually large scale uprising and that Woodrose was launched to counter them. As far as Brahma Chellaney is concerned please do a Google search of Chellaney and Blue Star and let me know the number of Khalistaani sites you hit. An excerpt is reproduced below for your benefit. Also note that the reports are of Innocent Sikh pilgrims being shot by the army and not of “Large scale uprisings: being quelled.
“”A Sikh doctor drafted from the Government hospital to Jullunder to conduct post mortem examinations said that he had seen the bodies of two Sikhs who had been shot at point blank range, their hands tied behind their backs with their turbans. His colleagues had reported others, some of whom had been machine-gunned. This doctor headed a team that conducted 400 examinations. He said that most bodies were riddled with bullets and bore bomb wounds. He said, “It was a virtual massacre. A large number of women, children and pilgrims were gunned down.”
The same doctor told journalists that bodies of victims were brought to the mortuary by police in municipal refuse lorries. (The Times of 13/6/84 and the Indian Express of18/6/84) reported that of the 400 bodies, 100 were women and between 15-20 were children under five. One was a two-month-old baby. The doctor said that one “extremist” in the pile of bodies was found to be alive; a soldier shot and killed him.
A local journalist stated that he saw a dozen Sikh Youths, arrested inside the temple, made to pull their trousers above their knees, kneel and march on the hot road whilst the soldiers repeatedly kicked and punched them.
This press report was made by Brahma Chellaney of the Associate Press. He was then accused by the authorities of falsely reporting certain facts about the army raid on the Golden Temple and inflaming sectarian passions. Criminal charges were laid against him. Brahma Chellaney reacted by challenging the constitutional validity of the censorship and anti terrorist laws hurriedly imposed in Punjab.”
You might also want to read the following from P.C Alexander on the Army’s perception in Punjab.
“”It is very doubtful whether the Sikh masses would have responded to (militant leader) Bhindranwale’s call in such large numbers as to have caused a real threat to the powerful Indian army.
“…the mobs, if any came forward, could have been handled with the effective imposition of curfew and other appropriate action,” he writes.
“It becomes clear from the details relating to the operation that the commanders came to know about the nature of the weapons and the strength of the extremists only after they found that the commandos, whom they sent in first, could make little headway and were being picked off by extremists from extremely well-fortified positions inside the temple.”
Thanks
Sunil.
Hello Wanderer,
On KPS Gill and Woodrose:
Bhindranwales Goons controlled significant part of the countryside by dint of the sheer force of weapons. Martial Law had to be imposed in order to prevent rumour mongering and propaganda that would have followed had the general public seen the condition the Harmandar Sahab and the Takht post Bluestar. It was also required so that the Army could move about unhindered through out the hinterland and pick off Bhindranwale’s supporters, without them being alerted in advance or being told about what had happened at Harmandar Sahab.
On Indian Army in Kashmir
Firstly please accept my apologies if I have come across as someone who is looking to score brownie points against you. That has never been my intent. The language that you tend use however does come across as one designed to create rhetoric and an image of “I know more than you so you better agree to me”. My “hectoring for proof” is merely intended to ensure that we use facts to debate and not perceptions.
I have serious problems accepting your logic that the Jehad in Kashmir has been launched for the Freshwater. I also have issues with accepting that the Army in Kashmir is not fighting “Goat Jockeys” but merely staying there to ensure that there is no link up between the FCNA and the PLA. If that were the case why was it deployed only after Jehad flared up in Kashmir. Surely the threat of such a link up was no less earlier. Why is the withdrawal of the army dependent on the intensity of terrorist activities?
On 1035 Mutineers.
I can only believe what I read. I cannot accept numbers that you throw around just because you claim to have superior knowledge of everything under the Sun without proving it.
On Sternberg
Why don’t you enlighten us about the connection. I am sure many of us are waiting with baited breath for your exposition on the “Bloody History of Buddhism” and its connection with Sternberg.
As far as google skills are concerned, I am sure we all remember who in his anxiety to prove Rishi wrong dug up the Kashmiris is exile website and demolished his own argument. I wish I was that good.
Thanks
Sunil
My Dear Wanderer Ji,
1. Wanderer Ji, you only said that the GOI nipped it in the bud. Now you are saying the GOI did not take any action. I was referring to the post Bluestar period when I said that the Govt was sometimes highhanded in its response, a fact that even KPS Gill admits.
2. Wanderer Ji, Perhaps you have forgotten that in order to carry out a successful insurgency money is required both in the form of Dollars and the Currency of the State in which the Insurgency is to be conducted. The former is required for weapons while the latter is required for maintaining operatives and buying ancillary items such as vehicles (ever wonder why fake Indian currency comes up with dead bodies of terrorists). As far as weapons are concerned, there is no dearth of Gun Runners who will provide you with the weapons and accept money in Local Currency. There is also no dearth of Hawala Operators who will arrange FX for you in return for Rupees. Also the Sikh movement had massive support from Pakistan, which effectively took care of the weapons issue. Your reference to “Shootout at Lokhandwala” as an authentic source of what was happening in the Sikh terrorist movement is hilarious. By the way the terrorists in the film were not after Dollars but Indian Currency. Money is money and if you have a sufficient quantity of it (which the militants would have had if the lay Sikh had joined up with them) it becomes irrelevant which currency it is in.
3. Dear Wanderer Ji. Yes my English is very weak. I find it logical to infer that there is huge difference between Akalis and Nihangs when you make a statement like the following – “Presence of large populaces of Nirankaris and Nihangs who were mistreated by the SGPC, fearful of Jat Sikh dominance and who had always opposed separatism and regionalism in fear of their well being if not very existence”. Why would the Akalis mistreat their own when the cause was for Sikhi??
4. On Mazhabi Sikhs: Wanderer Ji, according to you was not this movement a Pan Sikh uprising against the state with the Sanction of Sikhi? If so would not the Mazhabi Sikhs rise up in revolt to save the “Dharam” from the clutches of the evil Hindus? Wanderer Ji, the Mazhabis (population 2.7 million) opposed it, the Radhasoamis opposed it, the Nihangs opposed it, The Nirankaris opposed it, the educated and the business class opposed it (usually made up of Khatri Sikhs) and the movement was brought down by a Jat heavy police force. By what feat of logic do you say that the movement was a Pan Sikh movement against the GOI and had sanction from Sikhi.
Thanks
Sunil
Hello Wanderer,
1. On the bravery of the Kashmir Police: Yes and for all their bravery 400,000 Hindus were hounded out of Kashmir with Mosques Blaring the following on their loudspeakers in between azans –
“Asi gachi Pakistan, Bata ros ta batanev san. (We want Pakistan, with Kashmiri Hindu women and without their men-folk).”
2. “There are no Sikh tenets for singling out Hindus and massacring them. There are no Sikhi tenets that “identified enemies of the faith” and asked followers “to eliminate him/her”. There are no Sikhi tenets which advise true followers to lay traps and kill the young ones from the enemy camp wherever they find them. There are no Sikhi tenets that say the sanctity of a place of worship can be used to wage total war” – My Point Exactly, and that is why the so called “Sikh uprising” was contained in a few years. However many of the above does exist in Islam and the result is for all of us to see for the last 1200 years.
Thanks
Sunil
Hello Wanderer,
This is what I have been trying to say. While all other religions have questioned and changed in their belief system, Islam by its very nature has only ingrained more strongly the original rigidity and violence contained in the Quran. I do not think that the verses were written to be applied on a case by case basis after application of intellect. Those verses were put in the Quran and the Quran made immutable specifically to ensure the spread and imposition of Islam at any cost (Human or Material) on those who did not agree to it. This is where there is a cardinal difference between Islam and other Religions. As Rishi said, while you may want to use the Hook, I personally feel that it is high time that we at an individual level and a Govt level used the Hammer.
P.S: Before I am accused of planning mass slaughter of Muslms, let me clarify that by hammer, I don’t mean murder of innocent Muslims.
Thanks
Sunil
Brahma Chellaney sure made that report. And your point is…. ad hominem?
Remember that Brahma Chellaney and Shekhar Gupta were perhaps the only journalists from Indian media who made scathing reports on the Government. It was of course not in national interests, but there it was… Was the motive simply greed or was it “courage”, I am not sure of. The pics of the damaged Akal Takht were secretly snapped by Shekhar Gupta (there was a blanket ban on snapping pics right after Blue Star) and it is this very pic that is brandished to incite emotions in EVERY Khalistan leaning Gurudwara (mostly in the West now, but some were recently displayed in certain Indian ones too). A great testament to Truth… but it did and still does harm Indian interests.
Get my drift? If BC and Gupta were outright liars why did their stock rise so much after these reports and were featured in many Governmental and Non-Govt think-tanks, felicitations and respectable fora right after Blue Star and Woodrose faded out of public memory? Did the Govt go after these two for such “heresy”? I myself hate BC for hurting us in Khalistan (not just Op Blue Star and Woodrose) and I loath Gupta for being a consitent weasel and for not being too bright. But it doesn’t mean that what they said about our “response” in Punjab is patently wrong.
It is not just BC who makes those allegations, Tully for one had gone further and given anecdotes about a Lieutenant almost executing a large group of pilgrims ‘coz of a misheard order. The burning of the library and the still unsolved loss of many documents was another thing he highlighted. And Tully is not one of those hostile Goras, right? 492 civies (including women and children) were killed in that operation according to Govt sources themselves… “neutral” sources put it close to 700 while Khalistanis put it at astronomical figures. And these civvies didn’t surely die of old age, did they?… It was a fr1ggin’ military operation and they would of course have died of bombs and bullets, from either sides. Given the fact that civvies were not on the open and were huddled in the library, the adjoing hostel and other buildings (sometimes mixed with terrrorists who were garrisoned in every building) it is possible that many were killed in crimes of passion or simply cought in cross-fires. It would be foolish to assume that it was a “clean” operation… only Dubya makes claims like that. And that claim is BS.
The fact that ALL non-govt sources reported some atrocities by our side and the high civvie deaths it simply follows that things weren’t all that peachy. The Indian Army is very professional and disciplined but still acts of atrocities HAVE happened in many thetres it operated.
I see that you had to jump into posting some excerpt from some site without actually using your brain…. but again, I ain’t surprised by your naievity in these matters. The Blue Star Op was a tragedy and a strategic scr3w up in many aspects (though Bhindranwale was killed)…. those uncomfortable truths and tragic events were swept under the carpet and we try not to speak much about them.
BTW, Khujur can claim that “he got from his own sources and didn’t know it was online” and his fanboys can scream approval for all I care. It is pretty obvious however from the very format of his post that it was simply a cut and paste job from that site. He also never followed up with sources which say that Knickerwaalahs “died by the thousands” fighting raiders (not even the megalomaniacal Madhok’s online “epic” makes that claim). He did not say from which book he made that very claim about “four miles down… back to Srinagar” etc. (PS: Please indulge moi, Khujur Mian… I have access to a LOT of books and I myself shall corroborate you if the source is asli) What “arguments of mine” he demolished so convincingly by his hand-waving I don’t get… but maybe it’s a hive-mind Hallelujah thing for you guys.
@ The Wanderer
Check this out
Converted Kashmir, Memorial of Mistakes; By Narender Sehgal,
Utpal, Delhi, 1994.
@ The Wanderer
Here is a book that will help.
Converted Kashmir, Memorial of Mistakes, Utpal, Delhi, 1994. includes docs. $25
Re Sunil
>> Army deployment in Kashmir
Tell me, Oh Oracle… where did you get the idea that these forces were deployed only after the insurgency broke out? 😀
Why don’t you see the following SAAG link for starters..
saag dot org/papers2/paper160 dot htm
(by Brigadier. Dr. Subhash Kapila himself)
FYI, the Akhnur sector, the Uri-Punch bulge, Chusul, Pangong Tsho Lake, Depsang Planes not to mention PLA-held-Shasgam and Batalik are crucial points that are manned by infantry heavy formations. Armor doesn’t go up there and we are at an disadvantage vis-a-vis China…. we compensate it by putting a lot of men up there. And that’s since 1962. But it is true that in 1989-1995 the forward deployment was weakened a bit due to pull out of some battalions for COIN ops. Even so, the bulk of the extra forces came from units of the Central Command and the Southern Command and by reducing the cycling rate of unit deployment.
BTW, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out why the extra troop strength is reduced due to lessening intensity. And if you read newspapers you might have noted that an entire Corps (IX Corps) was raised in Kangra Valley after pulling out troops from the XVI Corps…. in view of lessened conflict in the Valley. (PS: It is also a result of our new strategy of “Cold Start” and counter against Paki “Riposte” op philosophy).
>> Ungern-Sternberg.
The army of the “Bloody Baron/Mad Baron” was chiefly composed of Buddhist Warriors including detachments of the Dalai Lama’s own personal guard. Buddhist Mongolians and “converted” White-Russians were the mainstay of the forces. The Baron himself was a practising Buddhist (blessed by the Dalai Lamam himself and carried holiest Talismans around his neck) who slaughtered any weak enemy/all Jews/all Muslims he encountered ‘coz he believed they would be reincarnated as better people in their next time. He almost conquered entire Mongolia, Northern Turkestan and large parts of Eastern Tunguskan Siberia before a string of defeats and mass retaliation against him brought about his ruin. This is just a trailer show what this person (who WAS strongly influenced by certain readings of Buddhism) actually did in his long campaigns.
Now before saying “Oh he was just ONE example”, please remember my original point on leadership of religions: anybody who used religion for political purposes will trample the very core of their tenets if they see an opportunity for narrow gains. Scarred from the Younghousband expeditions (where the hysterical zealotry displayed by the Khampas surprised even the Brits) and foreign “devils” (Indian traders) coming into his turf, the previous Dalai Lama had used this warlord to carve out a domicile in East and Central for himself. And BTW, these were not without “tenets” from Buddhism too…. the Shambala War funda was twisted in such a convenient fashion to provide “legality” to these actions. Funny thing is people like Dr. Alexander Berzin are using this concept with an entirely different twist now!
Anyway, when the Baron ultimately failed, the Dalai Lama went back to “Shanti” mode under the amused eyes of the British who still saw to it that the Russians or the Chinese won’t stream down up mountains into Tibet. Now this was not the only time when hardcore Buddhists had blood on their hands…. the Palas who razed North India along with the Pratiharas and the Rashtrakutas (thus paving the way for the Afghan and the Turk), the Tibetan Kingdom under the likes of Songsten Gampo, the Burmese Kingdom (with their terrible invasions of Assam and rather peaceful Thailand) are prime examples.
I hope I provided succor for your baited (sic.) breath now.
@ The Wanderer:
🙂 Man..the Gujjar/Parihars (Gurjara Pratiharas) were Rajput Hindus (not Buddhists).
The maximum you can blame, them (their descendents) and later dyanasties, vis-a-vis the Islamic invasion (you call it Afghan/Turk), is the lack of vision to foresee the bloody Islamic pandemic that awaited Indian Subcontinent.
….something that has still not settled in after 1200 years of interaction with Islam.
🙂
>> Indian currency and Khalistani Terrorism et all.
I lavved this part. Honest. 😀
As you have figured out after considerable thought, you DO need foreign currency to get the kind of small arms the terrorists were carrying. Without these weapons in the first place, you can’t run a terrorist movement with “ancillary items such as vehicles”, eh? What are they gonna do to kill evil Indians, ram us with Ambassador cars or Tractors?
“Pakistan could take care of the weapons issue”, eh? What weapons does the PA use and what weapons did the Khalistanis use? Do you think even the Pakis are dumb enough to supply weapons en masse to the terrorists that has unmistakable signs of being license produced in their ordnance factories/ heck, remember what fun we had in the UN with a few pistols captured in Blue Star that showed “Taxila” on them. Before you burst another artery, the AKs used by the terrorists were mostly Eastern Europe make…. not the Chinese/Egyptian copies that Zia sent to Afghanistan. The Plastique used in all those doll-bombs were Czech made. Sure some Paki help went into arming them, but a LOT of (successful)effort was made by expatriates in the dark alleys of gun-running in Africa and Europe and America to arm the Khalistanis.
BTW, I am amused you compare India with a flourishing arms bazaars of Peshawar where you “have no dearth of merchants who sell you guns for local currency”. I’m sure the Knickerwaalahs have wet dreams about buying a Steyr on the way after some Malai Kofta and empty a magazine into the nearest Mohalla… but thankfully India ain’t like that. And if you think Hawala is a simple matter of “arranging” FX against Indian currency, you are very very misinformed! Do you have any idea what the Hawala Operator asks for collateral against even “settle” the agreed money? Do you know what would happen if the operator knew you want to bring guns to his own neighborhood.? Okay let’s assume you found some such operators, given the then exchange rate and the fact that arms running was still “dry” (the USSR hadn’t fallen yet) and most of the arms in the market were sent to Afghanistan and Palestine (which had the backing of Charlie Wilson’s and Oil Sheikhs’ powerful dollars respectively) would have made pickings quite low. The flush of arms like AKs we saw since 1989 was a result of Glasnost-arms trade and end of the Afghan War. Before that you needed hard green dollars, pal! The entire gun-running world is still pegged against American dollar for that matter. You quite overestimate the power of the poor Indian Rupee in those times, Sunil Mian…..
You might think “currency is irrelevant” and “money is money” but then, you just happen to be you. And I am now sure your grasp of economics is about as strong as your grasp of the Military. PS: Congratulations for establishing that I cite that film as “proof”, sophistry and 420 at it’s best. Maybe you should look at what “products” and “services” did the Khalistanis promise from the Bombay underworld than “understanding from the film” that they were after Indian currency. 😀
I am sure by now you have no idea of the weaponry used in Punjab (let alone Khalistan itself), the channels of funding that went into procurement and transport of these weapons and the painstaking GoI work that went into cutting it off…. please don’t pull arguments for argument’s sake, it humiliates the sacrifices and work done by the brave men and women who stopped that menace….
>> Pratiharas were Hindus
Khujur mian, must I teach you paragraph comprehension too? Ever heard of “understanding context” and “compound sentences”? I however noted yet another example anal-retentiveness from the Khujur stables.
PS: I shall respond about the circular logic and logical fallacies that “backs” the innuendo on “Islamic pandemic down the ages and lessons it offer us” soon. I noted Sunil’s as usual sophomoric take (before yours) on that too….
aah Wanderer:
teaching English comprehension..the last resort of a scounde**** 🙂
@ The Wanderer
Some more Bullshit from you, that your “English comprehension class” will not cover.
The Rashtrakutas and Gurjara Pratiharas (both primarily HINDUS, even though later Rashtrakutas were Jains), successfully staved of Islamic invasion under the “Alliance of Nagabhata of Gujara and Chalukya king Avanijanasharaya” in the coming years the Islamic Arabs are driven back to Mansura on the Indus river.
The Gurjara Pratiharas successfully staved off the Muslims for close to a 100 years.
source: Andre Wink, Al-Hind: The Making of the Indo-Islamic World
Re Suni
>> Points on Mazhabi Sikhs and other subgroups in Sikhism..
Ahhhhh… now I am accused of claiming that it was a “Pan-Sikh” movement (Do you know what the prefix “Pan” means?). Pleej tell me how did you came up with that claim. From the very beginning I said that it was run by those groups (priestly clans, rich farmers, old nobility) which historically dominated aspects of Sikh life, incl. the Sikh Kingdom, the agriculture industry, the other high castes who had representation in the Gurudwaras and mainstream religious groups, the group that overwhelmingly dominated the Sikh diaspora etc.
There were sub-groups in these groups, built around certain strongmen… and they went against Khalistan chiefly because Bhindranwale didn’t tolerate loose-cannons and leaders not cowed by him. Three (or four) Nihang groups out of the entire constellation were all that stood against Bhindranwale… and it was one of them that chose to heed the Kar Seva call of the lowly Mazhabi cabinet Minister.
The other groups were fringe cults/sects who always had friction with the mainstream due to their nature of being too close to “Guru” led movements. The Mahzabis on the other hand were given a raw deal and not until recently dared to have their own gurudwaras… all this despite the affirmative action promise of 20% reservation (which was never fulfilled AFAIK). This discrimination also held with groups like the numerous Deras and even more fringe groups like Kabirpanthis.
Now, support wasn’t 100% even from the high communities… and does any movement ever gets 100% support for that matter? As I said before there was a significant pool of Sikhs in the police who could see that they are better under the GoI. It was their crusade and clear vision beyond any religious-political BS that helped rein in the evil that emanated from their own groups. It is no “feat of logic” and I don’t see no “incongruence” you insinuate.
>> Re Khujur
Ahhh… the Google warrior returns with a nugget and cuts and pastes it here. FYI, “Avanijanasharaya” was not a Chalukya King. He was a feudatory warlord under Vikramaditya II of Chalukyas of Vatapi (note this Khujur Mian, THIS was the Chalukyan King.!The link you copied your nugget (I found that too) from gives a wrong information 😀 ) who defeated the Arabs with help from Nagabhatta and Dantidurga. In fact it was dantidurga who rallied to his help while Nagabhatta just provided flanking cover to the allied army.
BTW, the Chalukyas wee toppled barely 20 yrs after this war by the Rashtrakutas who eagerly took up the 300 year Tripartite struggle for North India.
Source: Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan’s “The History and Culture of the Indian People”. 😀
@ Dipanwita
Am awaiting your response to my five point program to deal with Islamism in the indian context.
dude rishi, leave him… he is a masters in english literature from JNU..
although he likes calling him a 26 yr old techie 😉
Re Sunil:
>> ” Kashmiri Police”.
Why blame the Kashmiri Police alone? The Indian Army and the Paramilitary and even the “Asli Mard” BJP Govt with “Loh-Purush” and other luminaries all are responsible for the tragedy of the Pandits. The 30000 something Kashmiri cops in the Valley pales in comparison to the 350000 troops pumped in (1989-1995)… in strength, training and equipment. Maybe you should direct some bile at the Hindus and Sikhs (and Muslims of course) in the meantime.
PS: Pleej note that the Kashmiri Police was beefed up (in strength) soon… drawn from men of J&K, with lotsa Muslims in it. If they were ALL bloody Muzzie traitors, why did this happen?
PS: Your “impartialness” and “objectiveness” shines through, Sunil Mian. 🙂
@ The Wanderer
Boy you lie from both ends…
Avanijanashraya Pulakesi, was a son of Vikramaditya I’s brother Jayasimhavarman. How does that NOT MAKE HIM A CHALUKYA?
Your ego man…unbelievable…even though we continue to persue a somewhat strategic goal, but have different tactical and operational means to achieve them.
previous post…*similar* strategic goals
Hi Annon,
I happen to be a Electronics turned Aerospace Engineering currently working as a consultant in another strategic sector. I have my pic, quite a bit of my personal info and my name posted in my blog posts … something that hijadas like you and others who conveniently hide and barf behind anonymous handles n free email IDs don’t do.
BTW, I am also persona non-grata in certain 2006-2007 DU and JNU circles for being a “Counter-revolutionary” and a “fascist”.
Cheers.
oops touched some nerve raw their 🙂
btw…like this one http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20071210&fname=Cover Story (F)&sid=3
If the Congress does not stand up for secular values, then it is as much of a communalist party as the worst of them.
typo : nerve raw = raw nerve 😉
@ The Wanderer
Take it easy man….you are certainly not the JNU type..we all understand that…just the fac that you care to read through our history, different geo-political scenarios (even though our inferences and interpretations differ) shows that you fall out of the “JNU” category.
Anybody who reads SAAG and SATP will automatically become more aware than the usual JNU types.
Appreciate your giving picts in the profile….and man…no need for calling people “hijdas” etc…
I personally prefer not to give my identity unless i have personal contact with people, because the internet is regularly monitored by all and sundry and I wouldnt unnecessarily want to compromise myself and those who are close to me.
Does our actual idnetity really make any difference in the debates we have.
Re Khujur
Ahhhh… finally you got the wikipedia link, eh? Nice bit of “logical” and verbal jugglery-handwaving too.:- “He is technically a Chalukya” 😀
Avanijanashraya Pulakesi was not a “Chalukya King” as you copy-pasted; he was a warlord/governor. Not even a subsidiary Raja. But have a chill-pill Khujur Mian, it’s just some anal-retentiveness from my part…. for a change. 😉
————-
Oh, gee thanks for the bone. And please don’t throw that coffee-table psychoanalysis at me. This is rich….. look who’s talking of “ego” and sense and “strategy”.
>> RE Khuju: “ake it easy man….you are certainly not the JNU type..we all understand that…just the fac that you care to read through our history, different geo-political scenarios (even though our inferences and interpretations differ) shows that you fall out of the “JNU” category…..
Uh, O.K.
Everyone can ride his favorite pony… 🙂
The Wanderer:
While you are at it ..look up Raja Dahir and Lalitaditya too…will give you more “context” of “that” period.
@ Annon
Unbelievable isnt it…:).
@rishi: yeah it is ! also when people start using abuse and expletives it’s a sign of desperation.
just a little research on this thread of 500 comments can give us an idea how much hate is filled in these oh-so-cool-liberals.. (ironically the “right” is blamed for “hate”)
most of the abuse/dirt has been thrown from the left towards the right.
it’s a 8:2 ratio according to my findings ..but i may be wrong 🙂
@ Annon
yeah but the Wanderer does delve into valid centexts, sometimes, albeit with too much emphasis on geo-politics.
After reading his posts, I sometimes feel that the inability to understand the generational nature of “threat perception” that Islam poses, continues to remain unchanged from 700CE until today.
And inspite of the fact, that so much emphasis that is paid to political/strategic analysis of this issue, the key to dealing with the problem at hand was always SOCIAL.
i have simple theory. i.e- debates do not change opinion.
i doubt that after 500 posts and impressive googling by both sides, either side was able to make a dent in support base.
debates don’t change people but events change people’s opinion.
for example the debate of capitalism vs communism got a rest after the soviet collapse. i am sure tons of trees must have been cut to debate
that fight between the dominating “isms” of that era.
once soviet union collapsed it became pretty clear where the world stood.
same is likely to be true with the great secularism vs communalism debates as well.
currently because of near total domination of the left over the mainstream media it could be perceived that nehru/congress’s perverse version of secularism is winning. but u never know. under the surface something else might be taking shape.
>>> Re Sunil et all.
In my opinion this “Fundamentalist” Islam specter, is simply a phantom. I once tried to get closer to this “heart of darkness” (as I perceived it when moi was a younger man) only to find that there was nothing there. What’s quite real is the spiraling desire among many young Muslims (especially Arabs) to express their dissatisfaction with the existing geopolitical situation (and stupid attempts to change it) via acts of violence. I have already given my personal take on the Quranic verses, but here’s a supplementary to that take…… another side of the picture. Please bear with me and forgive any disjointed thoughts..
I see things in a cynical geopolitical way (prevailing situation and well-down-the-road) rather than have my judgment clouded by emotion or personal prejudices or ghosts of history. The biggest mistake is Hindu-Christian (and of course Islamist) tendency to interpret the incidents of the past in the current economic/socio-political light and
that too from select angles. The religious motives a-la Kulturkampf, Total-War Jihad we ascribe today to the first Muslim conquests may be just a part of the picture. The point-of-view/responses designed by those who faced these conquests or those incidents/tensions down the years doesn’t match with the modern interpretations…. I was quite surprised to notice the disconnects between the old POVs (made by those who actually lived in those times) and the brave new right-wingers (despite “20/20 hindsight”, documented history and the strength of modernity/modern ideas/progress of humanity).
What used to be scramble for resources, capture of trade routes, pre-modern imperial instincts is given a total spin as “the evil of religion fired hatred”. Perhaps one reason for this is the sudden appearance of the Arabs into a dominating position in the world, WITH A NEW FAITH ON THE WAKE. Other empires like Rome, Chinese and Indian Empires did not rise meteorically at the wings of a “new faith”. Christianity took nearly 600 years, working from inside kingdoms, slowly and steadily by zeal of preachers…. it also never jumped out of the blue. The Pagan/Oriental empires were not faced with enemies too high on their own faith… usually they shared the same faith with minor differences. Christianity absorbed some elements of opposing faiths and when it was stronger and more “solid” did away with the idolatry pretty quick. Hinduism had an ability to expand pantheons and absorb faiths in a more peaceful manner… a trait shared by all “Bronze-Age faiths” (as Joseph Campbell calls it).
OTOH, Islam was perhaps the first religion ever (except maybe after Akhenaten’s Sun Disc) who came with the system that “There is NO God but God”. God=Allah=Ilohim, a generic term for the father god of Iron Age Semitic faiths. In the beginning it faced no “confusion” as the first secluded Churches, who developed radically different theologies, and from the start was pretty sure about what they are. Due to multitude of reasons (Arab prowess in trade, Arab horses, revolt of Ghassanids, weakened Rome, Persia and Egypt; men like Caliph Umar, Khalid ibn Walid, Sa’ad Ali Waqas, Qutayba ibn Muslim & Amr Al’ Aas) and of course the Arab cohesion enforced/formed by the new faith gave them unbelievable victories in less than a century. And where they went, they installed their system of law/governance and ideas of faith. They were the victors and they bloody did what they liked with the defeated, as simple as that. Predominant faiths of the conquered lands, which had existed in splendor and subsumed their enemies were surprised to find that the faith of the “Lizard eaters from the deserts” could simply not fade at the sight of their “superior and established systems”.
Replace Arabs with Turko-Afghans in the above theme and you get what happened in India. The Hindus who always had our way by converting foreign invaders as “Fallen Kshatriyas” and induced them into the home-system found out that the new ones were a quite different hardcase. It might interest some to note that the few Indian-Hindu chroniclers didn’t refer to the Turushiyas as the agents of apocalypse. A dangerous enemy with strange customs, sure…. but not in the way the usual suspects of TODAY do it. In my knowledge the only medieval view which spoke of Muslims in such a way was (NOT someone from Vijayanagar) Rana Pratap’s hectoring letter to Man Singh where he mentions the keywords “they are destroying our way of life” and “condemning our faith system to destruction” and so on. The next was of course Hindu Padpadshahi of Shivaji…. but this too was in name only. Of course the Chitpavans and RSS will jump on me but the fact is a close analysis of Maratha state system, relations and military history shows nothing like the fantastic Hindu Padpadshahi that modern Hindu Right-Wingers “accuse” him of.
What we see today is a result a unique way the new concept of Nationalism (and other concepts of modernity, under the British yoke) was imbibed by certain types of people in the late 19th-early 20th century. The factors that led to such a view are too deep and varied to recount here (I may indulge you all though… 🙂 ). You can find the mirror-image of this development in the right-wing Muslim side…. but they differ in the themes/memes/heroes they chose or chose to develop. In both cases you can see that there is a feeling that “the other side waas not fair to them” and “geopolitical situation has to be changed” and that “THEIR P.O.V is the gospel truth and “the only thing which can save us is OUR method”. The “generational truth”, the “clear and present danger of the other side” all emanates from this response to modernism, under duress. In between these two ends of the spectrum came people who could see the larger picture and took on the modern concepts without dwelling too much on percieevd ghosts/slights and old axes to grind. It is THIS section of Indians who could transcend all caste/language/regional barrier and form the greatest and most glorious national movement the world had ever seen, led by the greatest soul of our times. And this was while the other two sections chased their own tails, fought petty battles, glibly talked about “service” when actually staying out of more pressing movements (or actually torpedoing them).
One of these groups got their own little Ilaka as a result of fortunes of history, cold war machinations and a vortex of violence that was unleashed after considerable propaganda…. inadvertently aided by the other side who upped the ante for their own use. Since then the Hindutva fundies have been trying to take-over what’s left by using the same methods which were employed by the other side in ’37-’46. Well, only over the dead bodies and dead ideas of those they call “pseudo-seculars”. I must also say that if they can achieve that victory, the nation sure belongs to them and their view. 🙂
Just my 2 cents.
The Wanderer:
There are two sides to your previous comment, both of which leads to the goal of our discussion and the multitude of attempts i make to increase the “threat perception”.
1. The attitude of Islam towards the Kufr.
2. The response of the Kufr (Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs)
Let us look at the first point.
Fallacy no. 1 (in attitude of Islam towards Kufr)
You claim that the message of the Koran is just a primitive (and non-temporal) geo-political strategy that HAS BEEN USED to suit the needs of subsequent conquering rulers from different ethnic/racial identities, ie, Arabs, Afghans, Turks, Mongols (after conversion) and Persians.
At the same time you go back and work hard to delink the Koran from each of these racial/ethnic followers of Islam and cite strategic and economic goals as the guiding factors of their brutal acts of conquest.
You yourself went through so much hard work just to give further credence to this fallacy.
Fallacy no. 2 in response of Kufr, ie, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, Sikhs to Islam
When I have continuously maintained that over the last 1200, us, the Kufr has failed to realize the non-temporal nature of Islamic threat, you huff and puff to disagree with me.
Then you give me upteem number of examples to show how the Kufr, (whether they are the Chalukyas, Rashtrakutas, Vijaynagaras or Marathas) did not look at their Muslim enemies as representatives of Islam and failed to deal with them politically and militarily, leading to their defeat and eventual subjugation.
Friend, you work so hard to go against me…and then pull up so many examples to prove exactly what I am saying,
ie, that WE NEED TO REALIZE AND CHANGE OUR TACTICS SO THAT OUR INABILITY TO UNDERSTAND THE “THREAT” IS NOT REPEATED IN THE
THE MANNER IT HAD BEEN REPEATING ITSELF FOR THE LAST 1200 YEARS.
Khujur: Don’t you have a day-job, or at least amorous couples to catch in parks or something?
@ The Wanderer
As for your proclamation that the Hindu revivalists have shied away from taking the “actual bull by the horn” so to say, in the modern geo-political context…..
I would have to say that its never to late to start doing that more efficiently, and the real me tries to do what he can do in the real world what he can do in his small little way..and so can you 🙂
>>Re Khujur
Try these fallacies of mis-attribution for size.
1.
Your very key-words: “Message of Koran”, “Non-Temporal” and “Geo-Political Strategy”. These make it sound like I portrayed the Quran as a manifesto of World Domination, an absolute Logos that is the alpha and the Omega, with a clear cut idea on how to go about it. Wrong, I don’t make that claim and I have explicitly written on the checks and balances, the protocols and the complex system that has been built to see the faith into the future (though the Quran itself is “closed”). It is the Wahabis and Salafis who sport that belief…. and I ain’t one of them.
My posts also explicitly says how despite all this, cynical rulers (and movers and shakers whose motives are anything but religious) have cherry-picked verses, generated memes, used chelas in the Ulema to push their own agenda.
You owe me an explanation on how you divined out that I “needed to delink some tinpot tyrant from the core ideology that I myself espoused here.”
2.
Again you make the mistake of claiming that I think the “home-teams” estimated the conquerors incorrectly back then. This, plus the same point which you made in point #1 that there is non-temporal, global strategy for world domination and the fountainhead of this is the Quran.
The Hindu Kingdoms who were contemporaries of the Islamic conquests/campaigns saw it as it exactly was; another bunch of looters and rapists with kooky Mleccha laws. It is the modern Hindutva fundies who claim the old ones “misjudged” the actual nature of the threat…… and this claim they make is based on their current geo-political view-scope and “response to modernity under British yoke” I talked about in my earlier post.
Who are YOU to judge that they saw the incursion “wrong” and “under-estimated the threat”? And as I pointed out before, “Hindsight is always 20-20”. This fundamental mistake of applying TODAY’s fundae (and these very fundae are on shaky footing), smug and cocksure under the aegis of recent thought-philosophy/human progress/recent world history, on Medieval incidents/campaigns leads to erroneous conclusions like you make.
Things back then unraveled themselves… as products of present conditions, something like a Markov Chain. Unlike what you claim, they did not under happen the guidance of some Caliph who sat thousands of miles away (at least after 750 A.D.) or from an Indian Al-Azhar institution or and surely not under the sole influence of a single book. For eg., Khilji’s invasion of Devagiri was to impress his Sultan (and fatten his wallet), and HE was not a Quranbot. In the Southern endeavors, Hindu kings aided Khilji ‘coz for the moment it served their interests too… things were peachy till they were chucked out too. Now when a strong Sultan died, the Hindu Royal families come back out of the woodwork (like the Harihara and Bukka brothers who were Kakatiya princes) and recapture their kingdoms, fight fellow Hindus and Muslims…. till another strong Sultan/Mughal with an imperial streak re-starts the cycle.
Only for brief periods did someone (Hindu/Muslim) rule large parts of post-Ancient India… and that too only when there was a socio-political contract between Muslims and Hindus (at the top and at grassroots level). It was no “undisturbed, continuous carnage of Hindus by Muslims all over India” as Knickerwaalahs spin it. No Sultan/Mughal could (or did) survive for long without tacit support of other Hindu kings or Hindu nobles/bureaucracy inside their domains. Hindu-Sikh kingdoms (or democratic India) could not and cannot survive without the whole-hearted trust/support of the Muslim populations. It is this “quiltwork” and sharing of space/shareholding that keeps India together even to this day. The moment you start to see Muslims as “cancer”, “historical invaders” and “pollutants” and “people to be put down”, the national social fabric will unravel.
BTW, Khujur thanks for patronizing me with your kind suggestions to “look up Lalitaditya and Dahir while I am at it”. I had not ever ever heard of them in my entiiiiiire miserable life. Who were these people, saar?
PS:Any more “contexts” you could advise me to improve my knowledge of the Islamic menace?
@ So much for modern day “mis”-interpretation of 10th century history…Ahhh…us Hindutva fools who listen to actual chroniclers.
I guess our man (The Wanderer here) is in a better position to analize the “checks and balances” and protocols, than the people who actually wrote AS THINGS HAPPENED.
Some selected pearls of Islamic history as the happened over a period of 1000 years.
10TH Century CE
Al-Beruni, Mahmud’s scientific advisor wrote: “Mahmud utterly ruined the prosperity of the country and performed those wonderful exploits by which the Hindus became like atoms of dust scattered in all directions…their scattered remains cherish, of course, the most inveterate aversion towards all Muslims. This is the reason too why Hindu sciences have retired far away from parts of the country conquered by us and have fled to places, which our hand cannot yet reach, to Kashmir, Benaras and other places.”
Utbi, Ghaznavi’s minister writes, “The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously at Thanesar that the stream was discolored, notwithstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink it. The Sultan returned with plunder which is impossible to count. Praise he to Allah for the honor he bestows on Islam and Muslims.”
How else would I interpret this my good friend Wanderer if not but a injunction for Islam. BTW they were not Wahabbis or Salafis.
12th Century CE
Shaikh Jalal al-Din Tabrizi (1244–45 CE), is one of the earliest-known Sufis of Bengal. The earliest accounts of him appears in the Siyar al-‘?rif?n, a compendium of Sufi biographies compiled around 1530–36 CE, three centuries after the Shaikh’s lifetime. In 1235 CE, Jalal al-Din Tabrizi traveled to India and, not finding a warm welcome in the court of Delhi (where competing Sufi orders had already established themselves), eventually moved on to Gauda, then the remote provincial capital of Bengal. There he remained until his death ten years later.
His exploits in Bengal are recorded thus:“There was also there a (river) port called Deva Mahal, where an infidel (Hindu) had built a temple at great cost. The Shaikh destroyed that temple and in its place constructed a (Sufi) rest-house, takya. There, he made many infidels into Muslims. Today [1530–36], his holy tomb is located at the very site of that temple, and half the income of that port is dedicated to the upkeep of the public kitchen for Muslims there”.
How else would I interpret this my good friend Wanderer if not but a injunction for Islam. BTW he were not a Wahabbis or Salafis.
14th Century CE
Timur himself recorded the invasions in his memoirs, collectively known as Tuzk-i-Timuri. In them, he vividly described the massacre at Delhi:
In a short space of time all the people in the [New Delhi] fort were put to the sword, and in the course of one hour the heads of 10,000 infidels were cut off. The sword of Islam was washed in the blood of the infidels, and all the goods and effects, the treasure and the grain which for many a long year had been stored in the fort became the spoil of my soldiers. They set fire to the houses and reduced them to ashes, and they razed the buildings and the fort to the ground….All these infidel Hindus were slain, their women and children, and their property and goods became the spoil of the victors. I proclaimed throughout the camp that every man who had infidel prisoners should put them to death, and whoever neglected to do so should himself be executed and his property given to the informer. When this order became known to the ghazis of Islam, they drew their swords and put their prisoners to death. One hundred thousand infidels, impious idolaters, were on that day slain.
How else would I interpret this my good friend Wanderer if not but a injunction for Islam. BTW Timur was not Wahabbis or Salafis
I will let the reader decide how to interpret these…Oh Wanderer…
More quotes, will follow….lets hear it as they happened shall we?
@Pakele : and wot about wanderer… .wonder where his current proj is headed 🙂
@ everyone..that previous post was anyone who cares to read and see how we should interpet history…let people infer what the actual chroniclewrs wrote as they raveged India…also..lets see who is giving a modern day twist to interpreting history..me or the Wanderer
@ Pakele
For once..read with a open mind the quotes I gave spanning 4 centuries.. Honestly..if you have a bone of fairness in you….tell me how one should interpret them…quiltwork of tolerance or “syncretization” soaked in the blood of us Kafirs?
Somewhere in the middle of 500 or so comments in this post, the deluded and deliberately color bind pseudo secualar loons got scared. Rishi has an uncanny ability to expose what these pseudo secualrs want to hide – the dark side of Islam.
To give the pseudo seculars their due, they tried hard! They quibbled about what happened in some 1200 ad and tried to validate their stance, without much success. Some even went on to classify the mob violence as a ‘law and order problem’. Well guess what, then 1984 sikh riots and the gujrat were law and order problems too. You guys will go to any length to give a communal color to those episodes. But not this one! heh, well it wont work. And we are not fools.
A word about hijacking the blog is in order-
When the psuedos saw that personal attacks cannot stop Rishi from making more and more eloquent and brilliant expositions, they felt that putting a pressure on GB would yield results. They did a tactical mistake here. GB is not some “peevish petulant and touchy” blogger who is an attention seeking coward who is afraid to have comments. His eye for detail and his sense of balance is just impeccable. He is a computer sc graduate but he could have become a great judge or an attorney. In a beautiful constructed argument, he broke the back of the psudos and ended any hope that those junta had about banning Rishi.
I agree with GB. If Rishi or any other person woul have logged on to RTDM and made a post, that would have been a case of hijacking. Why should this be hijacking? Why dont the people who make those claims just ignore these comments. Or is it that these bare naked truths make them lose their sleep? Only they can tell.
The pseudo crowd of course will go on about how there is nothing radical about Islam. I know it makes them extremely uncomfortable when Rishi posts a link about the vandalism at the Durga Puja. They dont want such facts on this comment section. After all, when was the last time 1200 buddhist monks or hindus went into a mosque and kicked the ass of some muslims? And even though this post was about expropriation of land and its associated political analysis, the Tasleema episode was absolutely fine as the protesters themselves joined the two. This made this a more than appropriate reason to start a discussion about the “religion of piece”, especially after GB’s almost exhaustive and brilliant analysis. If you didnt like that discussion, stay away. If you feel you have a valid counter argument, say it. Why attack Rishi or try to put pressure on the blog owner to censor. Guess what, the blog owner had enough censorship on Tv when he frew up to be fed up of censorship. So you are as little chance of trying to pressurize him to control comments. Take my word for that!
More than anything, it was the magnanimity of GB which was so abundantly expressed in his comment. He is a big hearted man. Ask any of the 90s SPHS girls, the sen daughters or even to dead soul of Anna Nicole. Anyone who has heard the recent Republican party debates will find a strange similarity between Rishi and one of the candidates there. Yes, I am talking about Ron Paul. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7d_e9lrcZ8&feature=related .Compare the nonsense what some of the other candidates are saying to what Paul is saying and you will know. The similarity- they do not hesitate to tell the bare naked truth. Now that is something which is unpalatable to many.
Sexual kinks and fetishes come in various forms and shapes. In the case of wandererer on this blog, it is through the case of sadism, by a follower of Islam.
“And where they went, they installed their system of law/governance and ideas of faith. They were the victors and they bloody did what they liked with the defeated, as simple as that.”
Look at wanderer’s attempt to divorce the Islamic effect from each of the innumerable acts of atrocity over centuries. What if i say to you wanderer that we gujjus we bloody did what we did to the muslims in 2002? In short wanderer admires Aurangzeb for his racism, but not the good guy who killed the foetus. We “bloddy well” kicked their asses, and “bloddy well” kicked the asses of you morons who will gain sexual satifaction seeing muslim acts of violence on hindus but will cringe when you see retaliation from the hindus.
wanderer, you have worked a lot on this blog. Its time now for some pleasure. its time to pick up your glasses, a cup of coffee and walk into the jnu library. Ask the first burkha clad girl you see to kick your nuts.
>> Re Khujur
After an hare-brained attempt to misconstrue what I had said and explain my “logical fallacies” he Eurekaed, Khujur Mian sticks to what he does best: propagandu via copy and paste from cherry-picked sources. And yeah, “more quotes will follow….” 😀
I never denied the atrocities that took place during Muslim invasions… in fact I was the first to call them “Ghaznavid Holocaust” and “Ghurid Holocaust” right here. But unlike you masters of sophistry, propagandu and hand-waving, I don’t see it in black and white. I don’t see it as an example of “ceaseless Muslim carnage on Hindus” which we must somehow revenge today. I had painstakingly explained my take on how freebooters and tyrants have used certain verbatim readings of the Quran and termed themselves Champions of the faith…. a most exemplary act of cynicism given the fact that they did even worse with enemies from their own faith. I had pointedly asked if the contemporary Hindus saw the invasions and Muslim rule in exactly the same terms as the present days radicals and fundies spin it to be. I extend my point by asking you, were those contemporary Hindus idiots to not “see the true nature of Islamic incursion”? Where is that contemporary Hindu theological response to the Islamic invasion? I had also questioned how the present day take on all this by the fundies was THE truth, given the point from which they make such “observations”. I had also briefly outlined the nature of Islamic rule in India, the ups and downs, the cyclical fortunes of the Sultanate and the waning fortunes of the Mughals and touched on the social contracts that allowed significant rulers to establish brief periods of normalcy and progress.
Without attempting to even answer on these lines, the likes of Khujur Mian are back to their old cheap tricks and posting totally misleading innuendo. Maybe they should check if Mahmud of Ghazni and Timur (of all people) were the “pious Muslims” as they make out to be. Maye they should check if the carnage they unleashed in Hindu kingdoms was any greater than what they did to Muslim enemies. The fundamental mis-attribution error (that Mahmud was “pure Islamic” as against “pure medieval barbarian looter”) gets repeated ad-nauseuem. Some “debate” this is! And more hilarious is the Amen Corner popping up and choking on bile…..
PS: BTW, Abu Nassar al-Utbi was not a historian, nor even a court chronicler… he was a secretary to Mahmud. Guess how far objective and balanced he would be when he pens his Liege’s exploits.
PPS: FYI, Al-Beruni himself notes with disgust how the Afghan invaders conduct themselves and is not impressed by their claims of being true Muslims”. He clinically notes how the systems in India were decayed to the core and how easy it was for a determined invader to do away with the “walking dead” kingdoms of NW and W. India. Maybe you won’t find THOSE paragraphs on HVK…
BTW, Khujur Mian….. why don’t you save us and yourselves a lot of trouble by just pasting the links of your favorite sites, instead of copy-pasting. I entertain myself in Googling exercises to see where you picked up your “references” but that’s my entertainment. You could save a lot of space in the blog space by doing that when you get to your next dose of “more quotes”.
PS: is it just me or did anyone notice how slow entering responses in this field got? The script which allows us to preview our post even what we write kinda burdens the system now that we are 500 plus comments and counting.
@Wanderer
Lol somehow you conveniently missed the Sufi Muslim, Jalal -al din Tabrizi comment….wonder why? 🙂
OK….hmmm…guess have to feed you more.
Shortly after partition (IN A FREE SECULAR INDIA), this is what Qamaruddin Khan, spokesperson of Aligarh Muslim University, said, “It advised the Indian Muslims to lie low for some time owing to tactical reasons and that soon they should stand up for a similar cause, that is to demand partition of Muslim majority areas of India”.
Wrote Qamruddin Khan: “The five crore Muslims who were compelled to stay back in India would d have to fight for another freedom struggle. The fight would be mainly fought on the eastern end and the western areas bordering Pakistan did not mean that the Indian Muslims would invite Pakistan for help. However, it was certain that Pakistan’s presence in the neighbourhood would embolden the Muslims. The Indian Muslims have half the battle and for total victory they will have to scheme out another plan”.
Further Qamruddin Khan wrote: “At the moment, the Muslims should refrain from politically confronting the Hindus . After a while the Indian Muslims should try to develop concentrated pockets. The Indian Muslims should maintain close relations with Pakistan and for running organizations, they should take help from them”.
Wanderer somehow it looks that wherever, whenever, however you look, THE ISLAMIC TREE IS OVERFLOWING WITH CHERRIES OF CULPABILITY.
Keep your day job.
The previous quote of Aligarh Muslim Univ spokesman was given a part of a interview in the “Light of Lahore, A Paki daily.
Source: Book review of Islam and religious riots (A case study) By R. N. P. Singh
>> Re Khujur
Another set of verbatim copy-paste jobs from Khujur Mian,
1. Here’s one from your fave source, HVK:
hvk dot org/articles/0604/112 dot html
2. I have heard of Tabrizi… not looked deeper ‘coz he’s one of those regional guys. I didn’t respond to Tabrizi comment ‘coz it was more hand-waving, innuendo and rhetoric and I have already given my stand about such “points”. BTW, I DID find very interesting things when I entered “tabrizi bengal 1530-36” in Google search. 😀
@ Wanderer
you did not respond to Tabrizi comment because he was a Sufi Muslim and you would be walking into more stickier wickets by getting into it.
If a Sufi Muslim exhibited so much hate for us Hindus, you can imagine how bad the real deal was.
You have a good day.
Heh heh… “stickier wicket”. Gloat all you want, Khujur Mian. You ain’t getting my goat, I am past caring and completely at peace with myself, you, annon, Sunil and even Radical-Gujju etc. 😀
BTW, I am not under any p-sec illusion about Sufis and I am not one of dumb those p-sec bots who go to Sufi shrines just because it gives me a warm feeling in my stomach. I know what these guys were capable of… at least what SOME Sufi Silsilas were capable of. (Maybe you don’t know but it was Bihar based Sufis who formed the theological “Track Two” when Barelvi called for his Jihad.)
The way you said “If a Sufi Muslim exhibited so much hate for us Hindus, you can imagine how bad the real deal was.” says you have absolutely no idea of Sufis, what they were, what they are and how they functioned in the Islamic (and Hindu) spheres. In fact it is common for all knickerwaalahs and their drones to classify all Sufis under convenient umbrellas and portray them in such dogmatic terms…..
@ The wanderer
So finally u did find peace with urself.
Wanderer wrote:
I am not under any p-sec illusion about Sufis and I am not one of dumb those p-sec bots who go to Sufi shrines just because it gives me a warm feeling in my stomach. I know what these guys were capable of… at least what SOME Sufi Silsilas were capable of.
Rishi’s response:
Glad to hear that… It was a pleasure discussing with u.
>> Re Khujur
I found peace long ago, Khujur Mian; when I left the Sanghwaffen windbags. Half-informed knowledge and flaky ideas of “nationalism” and “Hindu Garv” led me there as a close “fellow-traveller”. However, maturity and first-hand observation/participation of the high cynicism and pure cheap-politik ironically led to the Enlightenment I sought so intently.
Thanks for asking.
@ The Wanderer
aah.. u still cant get rid of ur German…:)
Fellow travellers we shall always be.
@radical gujju:
It’s been a some time since we have had such refreshing honesty in the comments section. You have articulated what Hujur, Khujur, Sunil et al think but dare not write clearly.
Congratulations. Your murderous instincts have a lot of support here. Please join Khujur’s recruitment drive.
Hello Wanderer,
On BC, Gupta, Tully etc,
I have never claimed that the Government did not go overboard. You made that claim when I said that the Govt was highhanded and this highhandedness exacerbated the situation. I am not questioning Bluestar neither am I questioning the conduct of the Army. I am simply questioning your assertion that there were “Sikh Masses rising against the State” and hence the Khalistani Movement has sanction from Sikhi and there fore is no different from Kashmir. None of the reports you mentioned contain details of How the “Sikh Massess were rising against the state”. They only spoke of how the Army brutalized the Pilgrims inside the Harmandar Sahib. Since I don’t claim, like you, to have the knowledge of an MI operative who was monitoring the ground situation in the Guise of a Nihang with barcha in one hand and a radio in the other, I will not make judgments on the conduct of the Army.
Thanks
Sunil.
Hello Wanderer,
India does not officially declare the number of troops deployed in Kashmir and the proportion of them engaged in COIN ops. I do not make sweeping assumptions like you do on the number of troops that are being used for fighting Islamic Fundamentalism in the Valley. The following are a few numbers that have been thrown about in this context. (from Wikipedia).
“India claims it is the presence of these numerous anti-India insurgent groups that has compelled New Delhi to deploy massive number of troops in Jammu and Kashmir for the task of counter insurgency. New Delhi has never made an official count, but military analysts estimate that anywhere from 30,000 to nearly 33,000 security personnel are most likely involved, supported by thousands of Indian paramilitary groups such as the Rashtriya rifles, and the Romeo Force(all a part of Indian army).[6] Stimson.org notes of the Indian Armed forces in Kashmir that:
Some reports estimate that India deploys approximately 400,000 combined army and paramilitary forces in Kashmir, most of which are stationed in the interior, 80,000 of which are deployed along the LoC. Pakistani forces deployed along the LoC are reported to number in the 40,000-50,000 range
[7]
Times Online reports that around 250,000 Indian troops are stationed in Kashmir,[8] while Pravda.RU, a widely read Russian News source notes that 350,000-600,000 troops may be deployed in Kashmir.[9]”
Even if we assume that very few battalions from the Army are involved in COIN Ops (not accurate according to my Friends who have served in Kashmir, but I will not use this to argue with you since I don’t believe in citing personal references in a discussion), 36 battalions of the RR, J&K police, and many other assorted Paramilitary forces seems and awful lot of manpower to take on 3000 Goat Jockeys.
Thanks
Sunil.
Hello Wanderer,
On Sternberg:
Many Thanks for illuminating us on the bloody nature of Buddhism. Your assertion that just because one maniac professed Buddhism and committed atrocities, Buddhism has a bloody history is quite amusing. However if you wish to hold this view please be my guest. I am sure the monks at Nalanda knew all about it.
Thanks
Sunil.
Hello Wanderer,
This is how Hawala works –
“In the most basic variant of the hawala system, money is transferred via a network of hawala brokers, or hawaladars. A customer approaches a hawala broker in one city and gives a sum of money to be transferred to a recipient in another, usually foreign, city. The hawala broker calls another hawala broker in the recipient’s city, gives disposition instructions of the funds (usually minus a small commission), and promises to settle the debt at a later date.”
A customer is not required to furnish Collateral.
On The Indian Currency:
If I assume that in the Eighties an AK cost 1000 USD (correct me if I am being conservative in this assumtion). In order to arm 3000 Khalistaanis you would need 3 million USD. In those times the rupee was at 12.36 to a dollar. This means that the amount of money required in Rs was approx 38 mn. If I add ammo etc to it, it might have come to 50 m rs. Are you insinuating that the second most prosperous community in the country would not have been able to arrange for Rs 5crs if they wanted to? By the way to put numbers in perspective SGPC has a budget of 330 Crs.
On Humiliating the sacrifices of the Brave:
I did not intend to humiliate anyone (unlike you who thrives on it). I merely wanted to prove that the Khalistan Movement would have been a bloody and long drawn affair if it had religious and public sanction irrespective of the funds from abroad being cut off. The Sikhs have enough money to run a war if they want to. The fact that it was being funded from abroad and collapsed as soon as the funding was throttled just goes to show that it had no sanction, either from the religion or from the public.
Thanks
Sunil.
Hello Wanderer,
On Mazhabis etc
Thanks for your comment. This is exactly what I have been trying to convince you about. The movement was run and funded by a handful of goons with no sanction either from the masses or from the religion, quite unlike what we face in Kashmir.
Thanks
Sunil
@Sunil
The funny thing is…the more u dig information the more the Koran is exposed.
In a true secularism, the first thing that needs to be banned is the Koran. All the rectionery Hindu stuff will automatically fade away.
The Calcutta Koran petition was a enlightened move in the right direction.
Hello Wanderer,
On the Kashmir Police:
You assume that I think the BJP etc are Blameless, which is not true.
On a more interesting note – You say
“The 30000 something Kashmiri cops in the Valley pales in comparison to the 350000 troops pumped in (1989-1995)… in strength, training and equipment.”
But are not these troops meant for preventing a link up of the FCNA and the PLA and in line with the doctrine of “cold start”. Please for once reconcile for me the above statement with the following –
“Tell me, Oh Oracle… where did you get the idea that these forces were deployed only after the insurgency broke out?”
“we compensate it by putting a lot of men up there. And that’s since 1962. But it is true that in 1989-1995 the forward deployment was weakened a bit due to pull out of some battalions for COIN ops”
Wanderer jee aap kamal ho
Pleej enlighten us about your impartialness and objectiveness saar
Thanks
Sunil
Re Sunil
More responses Sunil ishtyle, more handwaving and smoke-n-mirror.
>> Sternberg.
As I expected, you have jumped on the “it is only one person” knee-jerk retort. I pointed out this person ‘coz he is a prime example on how even THE religion of peace can be used by manipulative leadership for narrow ends. Miss that point, eh?
Maybe it’s your Nelson’s Eye, but I did tell you about Younghousband Expedition, the previous Dalai Lama, the machinations of the Palas and the ravaging hordes of Buddhist Burma. There’s one more example in our neighbourhood… the Buddhist sanction of Sinhala persecution of non-Buddhist Tamils. It’s true the LTTE is a bunch of killers and desperados but they started out with just causes. It was a Buddhist Monk that killed Bandaranayake… a prime example of religious chauvenism that can affect even Buddhism.
>> So “your friends” in the army tells you there are “a LOT of battalions” are in COIN ops in the valley, eh? 😀 You said they “served” (past tense) in Kashmir… what period and what number? If it was ’89-96 I can understand, that was a bad time for us. But I am sure that no soldier worth his salt would misrepresent India’s posture in J&K. But of course, you can put words in their mouth…. after all, anoynomity of the web makes some people quite irresponsible and gives a “nine inches long” feel.. BTW, nice try in bringing
To the absolutely uninformed it would appear that the Police, RR and Para and the few regular forces are “awful much” for fighting terrorists in a place like Kashmir. Fighting an enemy who sneaks in from the dozens of launching pads across mountains, forests and rivers and nullahs… at their time/weather of choosing is no mean task, pal. It is a BIG place, one of the most difficult and diverse terrains in the place. Some areas are heavily populated while others are desolate. It was quite a wide range of temeperature through the year. Whole battalions of engineers are deployed to clear snow and repair roads/eqpt in that place. Divisions of logistic troops are deployed to transport food, medicine and other supplies like LDO and HDO from depots far away. Anybody who even went for a joy-trk up a hill knows how difficult things are the planning and legwork needed… extrapolate to our strategic imperatives of a nation you figure out how much troops are needed.
Friendly piece of free advice; you are only making a fool out of yourself with totally misinformed comments on our army profile in Kashmir. I don’t ask you to stop ‘coz you are making such an excellent spectacle of yourselves here. Still, the anal-retentiveness and petty nitpicking is a bit grating.
>> Re Sunil
I loved your arms pricing and procurement “example”. It’s so much like buying a crate of mangoes … I never thought it would be so simple!
No of guns = X, which is of course equal to the number of terrorists. 😀
One Gun = Y dollars,
so the net cost = X.Y Brilliant.
By the kindness of my heart I add in another amount for ammo “etc”, a random number, Z.
So total cost of procurement = XY Z.
How simple!
Maybe the AK-47s you make work with one shot of ammunition “etc”… which you “priced” at Rs 12 million. But in the real world is not like that. The basic thing you have to understand is that it is WEAPONS you are talking about. From the black markets of Eastern Europe. They are something you don’t get a bulk-discount unless it’s going to an African hell-hole (it’s cheap there because of other reasons). A commodity whose price on the street shoots up during conflict. And those were the times of heightened conflict in the Middle East and the Soviet War in Afghanistan. It doesn’t follow the textbook “laws” of economics you see; There is something called servicing and maintenance of parts and replacement. And this is not some one-off affair like buying a toilet seat… or a matter of Class I mathematical operations. Moreover, for a machine like the AK-47, the flow of parts, ammo has to be regular and sustained…. which itself is a pricey affair (maintaining the channels). This need is due to losses from problematic cannibalization, malfunction, damage and capture. This costs a LOT of money, mian. Not XY Z.
And it ain’t enough just to buy the ordnance on the street… you got to get it to the end-user in India. This doubles the original cost, given the army deployment in Punjab. BTW, they always get a lot of spare guns… it ain’t “equal to the number of terrorists” as you put it.
Now it ain’t just guns and ammo they had, what about the high caliber machine guns of British make, the RPGs and their ammo and all that, the grenades and it’s bells and whistles,the pistols with their ammo, the communication equipment that even the Army didn’t have, the plastic explosive that even the luminaries of PLO didn’t have in such quantity… heck, the ubiquitous ammo belts?
It was quite juvenile and downright idiotic of you to make it out that the money for all this procurement plus the running costs of movement (all weren’t volunteers), the propaganda, the lobbyists in the Capitol/Whitehall could be handled so easily. And your figure of Rs 350 for SGPC budget has not been factored for inflation and converted to ’80s figures. And even this is from the donations of millions of Sikhs from all over the country, in a legal manner! Nice trick though. 😀
>> Hello…. two of my comments went into the moderation queue for some reason. I’ll type them in later…. along with my response to Sunil’s fantastic uvaacha on Arms Trade-Hawala.
>>
Anyway, here’s one more for the road Sunil bhai….
Blunders galore with your “observations” of Kashmir. Bravo!
For one, the “Cold Start” doctrine is a post-2002 development. 😀 Before that our concept of offensive war fighting was using “Holding Corps” which were designed to follow up and hold enemy territory after our Cavalry/Air Cavalry Regiments or the Strike Corps punch through. Maybe you should ask your “friends in the army” to explain what the difference it since I am now accused of pulling things outta my orifices.
Here, I will type v-e-r-y slowly so that you can read and understand:
There were originally 100000-150000 army personnel in J&K following the ’62 , ’65 and ’71 wars the ’87 crisis with China. These troops were tasked with meeting the threat from either side (so that the events of ’48 and ’62 are not repeated) and so as to meet the doomsday scenario of China-Pak link down Batalik… athreat that’s still valid today. This is not including the police, the BSF and other paramilitary forces incl. the then irregular Ladakh scouts (another 100000-150000, tops). When the insurgency broke out, the following happened;
a) A handful battalions from regiments facing Chinese LAC or Pakistani LoC were pulled out from their current assignment and put into COIN duty. It weakened our units on the borders, but in light of the emergency it was unavoidable.
b) Units that were supposed to be re-assigned after stipulated service in the valley were made to stay for another tour or two for COIN ops. This did not however stop the originally scheduled replacements from being cramped into the space also.
c) A lot of units from our normal peace-time Central, Eastern and Southern Command were poured into Kashmir. During that ’89-’95 period the cantts of HP and UP were nearly emptied of their units…
These steps in effect (plus the huge number of extra units of paramilitary and non-Kashmiri police… and newly raised Kashmiri police forces) raised the presence BY approx 350000. (I am sorry you don’t understand the word-”pumped in” :D) This, not to mention the special ops groups, the SOG that were raised to meet the insurgency. At one point, there were nearly half a million SECURITY PERSONNEL (which included 250000 armed forces personnel). “Reconciled”, now?
“Kamal ki baat” applies to you, Sunil Mian. You display a fantastic prowess in handwavin and obfuscation, an abysmally low level of comprehension and unforgivable ignorance of the Kashmir Insurgency (let alone our strategic imperatives). Jeez, I knew I had to spoon-feed you but I didn’t know you were incontinent as well…
Here’s the (first part) of post that went into the Moderation Queue, hope this one appears in the comments section right away:
More responses Sunil ishtyle, handwaving and smoke-n-mirror.
As I expected, you have jumped on the “it is only one person” knee-jerk retort. I pointed out the Ungern-Sternberg becaus he is a prime example on how even a religion of peace can be used by manipulative leadership for narrow ends. Miss that point, eh?
Maybe it’s your Nelson’s Eye, but I did tell you about Younghousband Expedition, the previous Dalai Lama’s machinations, the “campaigns” of the Palas and the ravaging hordes of Buddhist Burma. There’s one more example in our neighborhood which you forget..… the Buddhist sanction of Sinhala persecution of non-Buddhist Tamils. It’s true the LTTE is a bunch of killers and desperadoes, but they started out with just causes. It was a Buddhist Monk that killed Bandaranayake ‘coz “he was not doing enough for Buddhist Sinhalese”… a prime example of religious chauvinism that can affect even a faith like Buddhism.
Queued post contd…
Rationale behind our Troop Strength in Kashmir:
So “your friends” in the army tells you there are “a LOT of battalions” are in COIN ops in the valley, eh? You said they “served” (past tense) in Kashmir… what time period and what number did they estimate? If it was ‘89-96 I can understand, that was a bad time for us. But I am sure that no soldier worth his salt would misrepresent India’s posture in J&K. But of course, you can put words in their mouth… after all, anonymity of the web makes some people quite irresponsible and gives a “nine inches long” feel.. It aids the western NPAs and Paki lobbyists to show that India is “bleeding dry” in Kashmir as shown by the astronomical number of personnel in the valley. This lie is exposed right away for anyone who has an idea of military logistics and at least reads news reports. I can see why pakis and their allies and clueless mediamen repeat these numbers…. but I don’t exactly understand why you parrot the same theme.
And yeah, according the the Oracle here, the Indian Govt doesn’t tell us what percentage of it’s troops are used for COIN in Kashmir! You just need to look at formations currently deployed there to understand which units CAN go for COIN ops.
To the absolutely uninformed it would appear that the Police, RR and Para and the few regular forces are “awful much” for fighting terrorists in a place like Kashmir. Fighting an enemy who sneaks in from the dozens of launching pads across mountains, forests and rivers and nullahs… at their time/weather of choosing is no mean task, pal. It is a BIG place, one of the most difficult and diverse terrains in the place. Some areas are heavily populated while others are desolate. It was quite a wide range of temperature through the year. Whole battalions (nee brigades) of engineers are deployed in that state to clear snow and repair roads/eqpt in that place. Divisions of logistic troops are deployed to transport food, medicine and other supplies like LDO/HDO/aviation fuel/gas from depots far away. Anybody who even went for a joy-trek up a hill knows how difficult things are the planning and legwork needed… extrapolate to our strategic imperatives of a nation you figure out how much troops are needed.
PS:
Friendly piece of free advice; you are only making a fool out of yourself with totally misinformed comments on our army profile in Kashmir. You might get away in peer circles but please don’t spew this where people who actually know this stuff exist.I don’t ask you to stop ‘coz you are making such an excellent spectacle of yourselves here ( as Desh says, “yeh mera entertainment hai”). Still, the anal-retentiveness and petty nitpicking is a bit grating…
@ The Wanderer
Saw ur big lecture to Sunil on Kalashnikovs. (AK 47s)
Hey btw, Kalashnikovs are the least expensive of all assault category weapons and cost of part replacement are almost never factored in. Most Kalashnikovs are so robust that you dont need replace any parts for their entire lifetime…and even when u have to, you can mogrelize and fire away with aplomb.
@ The Wanderer
A collegue at my workplace used to be a conscript in the Romanian army..the fellow says he can put together a Kalashnikov together blindfolded, lock stock and barrel , literally,….he is a virtual encyclopedia on the AK series 🙂
On Sunil’s pedestrian take on Hawala:
The snippet that you faithfully copy-pasted itself says it’s the “most basic version of Hawala”. This would do if you want to deal with less than six figure amounts (in dollar terms), like say, send some money to a relative in/from another country where Forex Regulation is a pain in the ass. When you come to arms running, the amounts you deal with run in the millions…. and the risks involved are much higher. It’s not just a matter of stuffing big suitcase full of (asli) notes and dumping it in front of the friendly Hawala guy next door. This money would have to be washed clean and transferred through some channels (as electronic money or something else) to the Hawala Operator at the other end. Moreover, Hawala operators (though hardcore criminals) don’t stash the customer’s money themselves… storing so many notes are too risky. They travel light and operate out of innocuous looking travel agency cut-outs. Therefore, payments equivalent to say, 10 million dollars, themselves are made in installments. The nature of this dangerous deal (high treason) and the fact that it is a protracted affair….. and especially since the customer needs cash delivered at the other end double quick (even if the equivalent has not been paid/could not be taken in full at this end) calls for Collateral.
Collateral ensures that there IS a means by which return is guaranteed in some form. In basic Mom and Pop hawala, your verbal understanding or person-person “trust” coupled threat perception suffices… But it won’t do simply for the operators (who themselves are no small fry), not for the risks involved… and the fact that the Hawala operators in the other end (Pakis, Govt of Pakistan, Afghans, Chinese, Colombians) are very very dangerous people. It’s not enough for the other end that the desi Hawala operator killed some faceless customer/contact who failed a payment or double crossed them you see. They only want to realize their returns “aise, waise ya jaise”.
Possession of narcotics/gemstones/large quantities of gold/uranium/precious works of art or control over a group of people who could offer “services” like murder/muscle jobs for the Hawala Operator or his overlords (such Hawala operators are closely linked to the “higher” underworld, simply by virtue of this very portfolio) are the only things that function as Collateral in this field. In fact it is gemstones and narcotics that provide the bedrock, the ballast of the whole 600 billion US$ global black economy. It is THE aegis/currency of Hawala. Khalistani terrorists moved into the Mumbai underworld to function as human collateral by offering muscle and bullet services and also to carve their own turf where they can deal in goods (like narcotics) which could provide collateral. There are many reasons why they failed so miserably at this, but that’s off topic.
Re Rishi,
Durability and reliability is a hallmark of Russian made AK-47s, the one which Indian Army imported. The Chinese Type56s and Egyptian license made ones were notorious for their poor performance. I frankly don’t know much about Polish and Balkan AK-47s… but these couldn’t match the Russian workmanship apparently according to some sources.
BTW, parts replacement for AKs is easy and cheap and available where there exists a huge, open network devoted to such things….. or if you are in some sub-Saharan perennial warzone. As far as I know some did try to procure locally made components but the machining skills/instruments outside Ornance factories was quite wanting. What little they actually procured from Machine Shops in India (yes!) simply wore away or overheated fast. For example, the Khalistani nutcase would be emptying his whole magazine at some cops only to find that his receiver had suddenly gone mushy on him…..
what I recall..Pastunistan version (mongelized Chinese) and East Europeans made versions were the most commonly used one in 80s India.
I think u mentioned that too.
For obvious reasons 🙂 the Romanian friend feels Chezkis and Romanians did a better job than Russians…when it comes to building Kalashnikov variants
“A collegue at my workplace used to be a conscript in the Romanian army”
this is rishi’s best contact to date..
“In a true secularism, the first thing that needs to be banned is the Koran.”
so much for the well reasoned and sane khujur mians solution.
“All the rectionery Hindu stuff will automatically fade away.”
oooh.. are you conceding that the hindu movement is just a response to islam? hmm…
On the Weapons
I will not try to go in to the details of your ridiculous assumptions about what it takes to maintain and AK since it will only give you another opportunity to obfuscate. To satisfy yourself wanderer ji please multiply the number I have calculated by 5 or even 10. Even then you will come to an amount that was a pittance compared to the prosperity Punjab enjoyed at that point in time. 25 or 50 crores would not have been a huge sum to raise had the general public and Sikhi been behind the Movement.
Thanks
Sunil
Hello Wanderer,
On Kashmir
Clever play with numbers and semantics, and you accuse me of trickery.
You said and I quote “Tell me, Oh Oracle… where did you get the idea that these forces were deployed only after the insurgency broke out?” when I asked you about why troops were deployed in Post the Insurgency. Now you admit that –
“a) A handful battalions from regiments facing Chinese LAC or Pakistani LoC were pulled out from their current assignment and put into COIN duty. It weakened our units on the borders, but in light of the emergency it was unavoidable.
b) Units that were supposed to be re-assigned after stipulated service in the valley were made to stay for another tour or two for COIN ops. This did not however stop the originally scheduled replacements from being cramped into the space also.
c) A lot of units from our normal peace-time Central, Eastern and Southern Command were poured into Kashmir. During that ‘89-’95 period the cantts of HP and UP were nearly emptied of their units”
What were they sent there for – playing hockey with the goat jockeys??????
I am not in the habit of quoting sources that are of personal nature (like friend and family) and using unverifiable facts to ram my opinion down the throats of others, all the while dropping terms gleaned from Bharat Rakshak. (Shock and Awe wanderer style), a cheap trick that you excel in. Therefore I will not even go in to what my sources have to say about Kashmir and reply to you in your very predictable rhetorical style.
Why does the Indian Army not disclose the number of troops in the Valley and call of Pakistani propaganda?
Why are there frequent discussions on troop withdrawal linked to the intensity of the terrorism.
What kind of an Oracle do you think you are, that you can sit in your cubby hole, look at formations and declare which units are fighting insurgency and which ones are engaged in meeting the China threat.
How can you say how many troops are fighting insurgency without providing even a shred of evidence.
If this information can be inferred so easily why does not the army just declare it and call off Pakistani Propaganda?
How do you know that the troops you admit had been pumped in have been withdrawn.
What evidence do you have that the troops have gone back manning the border and don’t fight insurgents anymore.
You have no idea about how soldiers worth their salt are and what they think of Kashmir. Go to Kashmir, meet a soldier and ask him what he thinks about the conflict. You will get a better idea of what they are fighting instead of making statements which make it seem like the Army Boys are having a Picnic in Kupwara.
Thanks
Sunil.
On Hawala,
You have in your explanation of hawala and its link up with Khalistani terrorists cleverly assumed the following –
“especially since the customer needs cash delivered at the other end double quick (even if the equivalent has not been paid/could not be taken in full at this end) calls for Collateral.”
Why would you need to give collateral if you were giving cash upfront. If you have enough cash you would not need to pay collateral. I have been close enough to Hawala to understand how it works.
Majority of the businessmen use intra India Hawala to make and receive payments since they under declare their sales to avoid paying tax.
All hawala operators accept bags of cash. Not at their fronts but in their godowns which are basically nothing but rooms full of cash with guards.
Go to Chandni Chowk look up an operator and see for yourself.
As always you have used your embellished knowledge of Hawala to digress from my point which said that if you have enough cash (which the Khalistaanis would have had, had they been supported by the public) you can arrange for forex to be delivered to you in any other part of the world WITHOUT COLLATERAL.
And only a mad man would attempt to arrange for a 10 million dollars through a single operator. A sum like this would be staggered in smaller tranches and channelised through multiple operators to avoid raising suspicion.
The fact the Khalistaanis had to lend muscle to the Mumbai Underworld (by your own admission) goes to show that they were short of funds.
Thanks
Sunil
sorry for interrupting ….my first lesson from this discussion is Bangladeshi intrusion should be tackled. BSF forces taking bribes should be investigated.
@ WTF
did u miss the word “reactionery”…
The REACTIONERY part of the Hindu revivalism is a counter to violent ideologies like the one promoted by the Koran (also known as Islam)
WTF..you keep coming back..:)
@ WTF
Former Romanian conscript collegue..not of much help…except his extensive knowledge of Kalashnikovs and Ceucescu.
@ WTF
When you get a chance, google “Calcutta Quran Petition”. You will understand what I am talking about when I say, that in order to uphold true secularism, the first thing that needs to be done is to ban the Koran.
>> On Troop Strength in Kashmir
Hey hey hey…. getting tipsy, aren’t we? Other than bombast, usual infra-digs and arguments of truthiness (sic), your reply is as wholesome and nutritious as a turd sandwich. I also didn’t miss your juvenile tricks of obscuring the debate, mis-attribution and gaps of logic too huge to be explained by your (considerable) ignorance.
Here’s the story so far on the Kashmir troop issue, a tangential point but yet used by Sunil Mian to drown discussions. I’ll make this UKG level simple for your benefit…..
1. Nov 29, 2007 4:02 PM; My Comment:
I started the ball rolling with saying how Khalistani terrorism was more dangerous to the unity and idea of India than Kashmiri terrorism… and that the goat jockey from Pakistan never did shake our foundations as hard as the Khalistan movement did.
2. Nov 29, 2007 at 4:32 PM; Your Comment:
So as to buttress your point of MUSLIM Threat, you return with gems like “for 20 years haves shaken confidence of the country”, “4th largest army tied down for 15 years” (first time you made the canard that-”the bulk of the army is staved off by the Terrorists”.
But then you have all the right to be “shaken to the core”, due to our useless army perhaps and traitorous Muslims all around. You also said that Punjab was taken care by the police, how conveniently you forgot operations like Op BlueStar and Op Woodrose which stamped down the spiraling movement… and the years of martial law, military deployment and president’s rule.
3. Nov 29, 5:35 PM; My Comment:
I pointed out the canard by saying that there ARE (i.e. in Present Tense) 100000 army personnel plus 200000 paramilitary/spec-ops/cops , making a total of 300000 security personnel. I also clearly said that the worst was over by 1995, i.e around the time Op Sadbhavana. You don’t need to be a rocket scientist to see that there were more than usual troops were indeed deployed in the first phase of the insurgency. And you also don’t need me to ask you to corroborate it yourself. Moreover, I explicitly mentioned that ALL these forces (during the heavy concentration years) weren’t there for COIN, many were still following their old brief of regular PLA and PA threat….
Contd..
4. Nov 29, 6:09 PM; Your Comment :
Despite me clearly stating in the previous post that the 300000 troops aren’t all fighting terrorists you again sing that “3000 terrorists are tying down (the whole) 300000” tune and then went on a tangent about officer shortages and occupational hazards like fratricide.
Of course Gen. Singh (and others all the way back to Joshi) said the truth that the regular army wasn’t made to do police work or COIN….. but that is in the light of the original training given to the troops (i.e. war fighting) doesn’t gel with police-work and it ain’t in any professional army’s charter/ethos to stay as Havildars. This was exactly why Gen Joshi began the move from raising new paramilitary forces like the RR (with deputations from regular army Regtts) to reduce the burden. You make it sound like the Army is actually weakened and mauled due to the conflict…. I wonder what “your friends in the army” would say to this.
5. Nov 29, 6:39 PM; My Comment:
I saw the repeated canard/mis attribution in the above post.
I told you again that, for eg., XIV Corps are against China and such current concentration of forces is because of external threat perception (the link up, a new Op Gibraltar) and how modified Para troops are used nowadays for COIN. I repeated what anybody who reads the dailies would know… how the terrain is forcing us to deploy such number of troops. I had given hints like Vairengete trained units and formation of the Leh Corps. (PS: This was after the war and the units pulled into this Corps were chiefly in charge of northern Ladakh)
6. Nov 30, 7:55 AM; Your COmment:
You come up with another brilliant nugget “36 RR battalions etc JUST because of terrain is fallacious.” in the same breath as agreeing due to the kindness of your heart that Kashmir is a difficult terrain.
Sunil mian, there ain’t no lakes, no swift rivulets, no natural sanghars, no large unmannable stretches, no fencing in large stretches of the border, jungles, rugged mountains, nullahs, glaciers and snow in Punjab. J&K runs on two roads (one which is closed for half of the year) and an air-bridge unlike Punjab which is well connected by land and air. If you can’t see what damage such the terrain did to the teeth of Khalistan and what it means to on-ground ops in Kashmir, you are a fool sir.
You also said “to the best of my knowledge army doesn’t state what purpose and how many troops are deployed blah blah”. Plain BS! If you know where to look (and I assure you it’s in the public domain, available to civvies too) you can find them. Except for Spec Ops who are small forces, the rest of the whole orbat is in the public domain (read public sources like Army Reports, , Def Min reports even News reports) and even in forums like BRF (which is the best non-Govt public-domain source regarding Indian Military). I can’t and I will not spoon-feed you simply because you are blabbering blindly without the decency to make an effort yourself. Why don’t you read the wikipedia entries on Indian Army formations in Kashmir and see for yourselves how many can be sent for COIN.
You said “if troops are meant for China, why is there talk of withdrawing them now?…. By your logic the troops should be in Kashmir forever…” and pasted statements of Def Min A.K.Antony and Gen Singh like the Devil quoting the scriptures. My dear Sunil, the huge number of ADDITIONAL troops pumped in (the 35000 during ’89-’95) are the subject of phased withdrawal…. not the levels that have to be posted insurgency or not. It is clear to anyone with half a brain or who follows the situation up there. I also added ( in my post dated Dec 3, 1:42pm) that the new 9 Corps has been raised from units taken from Kashmir….“Everybody agrees that the troops are primarily fighting terrorists”…. some leap of logic you took to use Shri A.K. Antony and Gen Singh as your partners! 😀
7. Dec 1, 2007 7:14 PM; My Comment:
Amused by your deliberate conflation and persistent filibustering I suggested you to check the field deployments yourself… even gave a hint on the freshwater issue. (The looming water crisis in Pakistan would have made the point apparent to anybody with some knowledge on the Kashmir issue and Paki tricks like twisting the IWT and their quaint little “Jhelum Plan”.)
8. Dec 3, 2007 10:43am; Your Comment:
First you simply waved away the fresh water issue that’s facing Pakistan… that itself would tell reams on your “knowledge” of Kashmir to any informed person. Again you make the unbelievably stupid claim that “why was the army deployed only after the Jihad flared up in Kashmir”? This is when right from the start I made clear that all those EXTRA troops were deployed over peacetime levels and that deployment is pretty much back at peacetime levels. I also note how you insinuate that I show of debate-arrogance when you had all the freedom in the world to check how many divisions (the nature of the units of those divisions) are deployed in Kashmir, the phases of deployment since 1948 war and paste it here to prove “your point”.
9. Dec 3, 2007 1:42pm; My Comment:
It was in this post that I asked you, in reference to your own preceding post, “Oh oracle, tell me how you got the idea that these forces were deployed only after the insurgency broke out”. I understood your game but I gave you the benefit of doubt that you were under some sort of misconception or plainly ignorant on our deployment history in Kashmir.
I showed you fundae like troop recycling and pull-out of troops from EXISTING units in China (in view of the emergency), I offered further hints on our strategic points through which we may face external attack and repeated (for the nth time) and why we put so many men after the ’62 war. I also pointed out the raising of a whole new corps from the units attached to 16 Corps (I see I didn’t mention 15 Corps also). I even pasted a link to Brigadier Kapila’s article on how (and why) our troop strength and operational profile in J&K is twisted by certain quarters.
10. Dec 4, 2007 10:39am; Your Comment:
First, your lie that Indian Army never declares it’s deployment in J&K! Maybe you think that a “declaration” should be made by heralds playing drums across the entire nation…. but it ain’t like that. The army DOES provide regular reports (in their annual reports, to the press, provide info to parliament) on deployment of even regiment level units, forget Brigades. You can’t hide deployment at such levels, Sunil Mian! Corps have divisions and divisions have brigades and brigades have battalions/regiments. Brigade is the microcosm specialized fighting unit and it’s clear for anybody who even looks at Corps deployment to find out the profile of the deployment. These are regular army units we are talking of… these can’t be hidden from “public eye” let alone other governments. Not if the eye knows what to look for and where…. even if the eye is in a “cubby hole” 😀 far away.
Then you come up with sources which “estimate” deployments up to 650000 and claim that official figures are never given. Hasn’t it occurred to you that these are the result of the same exaggerations by Pakis, Western Lobbyists etc that the Brig. Kapila’s SAAG article warned about? These claims themselves have no backing and are made in off-handed manner… going against the PUBLICLY stated deployment or even military watchers like BR and SAAG/IDSA/ITS-Chennai.
And I still see you continuing with your original ignorance on how J&K terrain warrants such forces for COIN. Maybe you don’t know the difference between manning a huge, difficult area against multiple hostile forces and “taking on” enemies mano-a-mano.
11. Dec 4, 2007 11:06am Your Comment:
Sunil Mian starts compounding his errors now and makes the fraudulent claim that my point on “350000 troops pumped in” to J&K are to “stop the link up and in line of Cold Start”. This is downright stupid and uninformed. I explicitly said (right from the Nov 29 posts) that the ORIGINAL troop levels, are tasked with meeting the external aggression threat. Those units in those formations were there before the insurgency, such deployment in strength existed under that very operational brief even in ’89-’95 and will remain even if the last goat-jockey from Pakistan is killed.
Moreover, Cold Start applies to Pakistan specific high impact operations in the Shakargarh/Sahiwal Sector (and other theaters in the International boundary)…. not to Kashmir and not to a China-Pakistan linkup. The war fighting doctrine in J&K is quite different, FYI. This doctrine was formulated after Op Parakram and after more infantry could be spared from calmer Kashmir into the plains/deserts. They did exactly that by forming a whole new corps from units previously given to XV and XVI Corps.
12. Dec 4, 2007 11:42am (and repeat post of the same at Dec 4, 2007 2:41pm); My Comment:
I pointedly asked you what time “your friends in the army” served and what numbers they shared with you. This I did by extending my belief that MAYBE you are confusedly conflating the deployment phases (’89-’95 and ’96-’04 and ’04- to date). I again warned you how Pakis etc are using “700000 troops in Kashmir” as a devious talking-point in certain circles.. a point the SAAG paper (as well as many other sources) make… and not to parrot that canard just to earn brownie points.
I nevertheless explained again how non-fighting Logistics/Engg/auxiliary services makes up a large part of even this COIN deployment.
13. Dec 4, 2007 2:24pm; My Comment:
I gave a detailed response on how the normal strength of 250000-30000 troops (incl 100000 regular soldiers) was beefed up BY some 350000 personnel following the insurgency. This I explained by telling how unit cycling was halted and other formations from other commands were pushed into Kashmir (and pulling some battalion from EXISTING border units in J&K). I also made it clear that there WERE at one point (in past tense) half a million (*at least) security personnel, i.e. in the Phase 1989-1995. In this post I also told what Cold Start actually is, and when it actually began too…
14. Dec 5, 2007 8:49am; Your Comment:
Now Sunil’s back frothing and accusing me of “semantics” and “tricks with numbers” and assuming the hurt air of a person wronged against. It’s clear he wishes to hide his own inability to do reading comprehension, inability to have a clear line of though and his woeful ignorance of the situation in Kashmir by accusing me of semantics and all that. Some specimen!
He tries to cover up his blunders and ignorance and reboot the whole affair by this cute parlor trick;
a) First he claims that he “asked me why troops were deployed after the insurgency”.
b) Insinuating that I lied in direct response to the above.
Hah! Sunil Mian tries to claim the Hill by starting with the same old blunder he made in #8 (Dec 3, 2007 10:43), which itself was a result of his absolute ignorance of the phases of troop deployment. This is the same fundamental blunder that I was trying to point out since this thread began….. too bad he missed the wide side of the barn at fifteen yards all this time.
The boys ain’t “having a picnic” in Kupwara… ain’t claiming that. They do face great dangers to life and limb…. but even this is a far cry from the Kashmir in ’89-’95 with all it’s sieges, the Hazratbals and hordes of adolescent Kashmiris crossing into Pakistan(via the forests and the nullahs) unchallenged and returning with the gun. And your “salvos of questions” are as dumb as they come; if you feel it is impossible for a civilian to understand and see the (not so finer) details of the army in Kashmir, it’s because you are the proverbial Frog in the Well whose field is limited to the Google search bar. There are UMPTEEN publications by Govt sources (as annual reports/misc. committee reports), books by retired personnel, defense analysts etc in the market that has considerable information on troop deployments and the phases of the same. And guess what, these are quite available too….. your very claim that “there is not a shred of evidence” in that regard and feverish handwaving makes your ignorance even clearer.
You ain’t impressing anyone by your haranguing for “evidence”, “evidence” Sunil Mian…. it’s an old, worn trick aimed at hiding your own ignorance. I notice it’s not just in the Kashmir thread you do this chicanery too….
The Indian army, Ministers/Def Min officials and spokespersons periodically demolishes the Paki propaganda of “700,000” troops in Kashmir”. On what basis do you claim that they haven’t? Gods in heaven, just because a prime Kupamanduka like you knows didly-squat on Kashmir the readers are inundated with the vilest of Paki style propaganda!
And yeah…. I was a member of BRF for 8 years, but nice try in making it out like I am trying to deliberately snow poor old Sunil with terms “gleaned from BR”. In fact you do learn a lot of things there because the forum has serving and retired (senior) members of the military, defense analysts, well known journalists and retired cops and babus (have encountered some of them in member meets) who does drop in with quite useful nuggets . It ain’t MY fault that your knowledge of military affairs and the basics of the Kashmir issue is woefully inadequate, despite your high highfalutin'(obviously false) claims. I posted some jargon under the (mistaken) impression that you actually knew what you were talking about…. not to shock and awe you with my oh so mighty knowledge as you insinuate. It was only a little down the line that I recognized you for what you really are: a windbag, a “source” with way high noise to signal ratio.
And Gee, Sunil Mian won’t tell me his personal knowledge of the Kashmir Issue (earned after multiple tours of duty, perhaps 😀 ) because of my “rhetoric”. How thoughtful of you! BTW, I take your “emotional” claim of having hands-on knowledge of the Kashmir issue and knowing the issues faced by soldiers etc with a barrel of salt. Anybody who has basic knowledge of Kashmir Ops will not make he consistent, magnificent blunders you made nor forget operational briefs assigned to the formations. FWIW, I have a person close to my family commanding a whole formation in J&K, close friends in the officer corps of the RR, the Paratroopers and the Air Force (in the valley itself).
@ khujur mian:
of course i keep coming back. the slowness to typing makes it irritating to take part in the debate but that doesnt mean im going to miss out on what other people say..especially your pearls of wisdom..
ive mentioned the calcutta koran petition many times before (been to the website to have a good laugh.. your views recently have become equally amusing when i realized your ‘solutions’ were banning the koran and converting all muslims.. ha ha.. what next.. a pixie tea party?).. you have not deigned to respond to it then..
Why dont you go ask the Supreme Court to declare that God is Real next?
the judges can have a good laugh too..
oh wait.. somebody already did it for the setu samundaram project.
@ WTF
Lets do a small exercise here.
Give me a list of all the things that you consider to be “secular”.
Tell me what you consider to be the biggest threat to it.
Then tell me why we should not support a ban on Koran in order to achieve secularism?
Also tell me whats wrong in helping followers of Islam (99% of whom are children of Hindu converts in the subcontinental context), RETURN BACK to their Hindu origins.
>> On Sunil’s Halwa, oops Hawala! 🙂
Yeah, right. Now I am sure you are as close to Hawala as you are to Kashmir and the Kashmir issue. I am so dead sure you also know how to “look up an operator”, in Chandni Chowk no less! What next, you you were initiated into the high circles of gun-running by Viktor Bout?
Let’s see your pearl-necklaces of wisdom;
1. “Why would you need to give collateral if you were giving cash upfront? If you have enough cash you would not need to pay collateral”.
2. “And only a mad man would attempt to arrange for a 10 million dollars through a single operator. A sum like this would be staggered in smaller tranches and channelized through multiple operators to avoid raising suspicion.”
3. “All Hawala operators accept bags of cash. Not at their fronts but in their godowns which are basically nothing but rooms full of cash with guards. Go to Chandni Chowk, look up an operator and see for yourself.
As always you have used your embellished knowledge of Hawala to digress from my point which said that if you have enough cash (which the Khalistaanis would have had, had they been supported by the public) you can arrange for forex to be delivered to you in any other part of the world WITHOUT COLLATERAL. “
Your problem is you are simply Googling up and then swallowing a simplistic “translation” of the concept of Collateral. It’s quite pedestrial but then you simply happen to be you.
First, how do you think the “cash paid upfront” is actually realized by the operator at the other end of the tube? I mean, how does the money actually “move”. And how long do you think the other operator would wait for the money to move and how far would he see the backlog increase?
The simplest way is under-invoicing (this happens only if the Hawala operators are in some sort of business transaction….. but here you can’t under-invoice beyond a certain level), canceling some existing debt or future financing using bonds/stock certificates via legitimate institutions (in the same way the Mexican Robber Barons used Citibank to move 280 million(?) dollars long ago) or by executing an equally remunerating reverse transaction. Now when it comes to gun-running for terrorists, the amounts are high, risks are quite high (high treason), financial institutions are ideally avoided…. and by the very virtue of terrorist movements (and their operations and their requirements) the actual flow of money to the receiver (who buys the arms from Europe) also has to be regular. Such frequent, protracted needs at the other receiver end forces the “source” to in effect borrow credit (credit, not cash) in the Hawala chain ‘coz even if he has cash upfront, it can’t be moved to the source end in time: The cash is paid at source end, but the receiver operator cannot realize it in the near future and yet has to pay the client’s contact at receiver end. The source, say, our hypothetical Khalistani might have used banknotes coming out of his ears but it won’t do any good in the international link unless this cash actually moves (and that too smoothly) and cancels the backlogs. The problem of realization gets even worse if the currency you are talking about doesn’t figure in the international Currency Basket…. like the Rupee in those times.
Instead of this, imagine that the client at source end had for Collateral narcotics or gemstones. These items are regarded as better long-term assets, imperishable and always has value, can be transported faster, without leaving paper trails (and sold at extremely high premiums, monetary wise and influence wise, by the receiver end… thus earning HUGE profit for the source end operator). If you have these, they can be used instead of cash payment at source end. If the source client doesn’t have these items, he have no choice but to prostitute yourselves and cancel real-time the debt for the receiving operator. Now THIS was what the Khalistanis tried to do with their muscle power. Though they had discreetly raised/siphoned quite an amount from India for the movement, the Rupee wasn’t strong enough for hawala dynamics in the international arms market.
PS: BTW, look from the side of the Hawala operator at the receiver end (someone who had the cojones to get involved in arms trade Hawala), would he let go of an opportunity to get that sort of influence/control with clients like these?
This is what I meant when I said at the very onset; “And if you think Hawala is a simple matter of “arranging” FX against Indian currency, you are very very misinformed! Do you have any idea what the Hawala Operator asks for collateral against even “settle” the agreed money? “ in the post dated December 3 2007, 2:34pm. I wonder why a person such as you so seeped in gyaan about Hawala and Chandni Chowk operators couldn’t “glean” this fact!
It ain’t the end of story yet…… The situation got a wee bit more complicated in the Indian context:
A high-rolling Indian Hawala Operator won’t make a big transaction unless he really knows the customer that contacted him….. and the recipient waiting at the destination. It’s an Indian thing, I hear. The Hawaladars and their clients ideally should share ethnic/religious links (if not closer bonds) for the Indian system to work smoothly. If there ain’t no strong links, there always would ANYWAY be some sort of collateral in return of being entangled in “somebody else’s” affair. Especially if the client is very apparently involved in war with the state. See how this compounds to the woes of the Sikh client who anyway has to provide Collateral anyway?
The problem for the Sikhs (and many other Indian groups like LTTE) is that the overwhelming majority of the Hawaladars, especially the reliable ones with greater portability operating out of India happened to be Muslims. (This was due to the Islamic concept of financing via collateral, centuries old Islamic banking system with old links to East Asia…. and most importantly, the Pashtun Mafia that reaped high dividends during WW2… but that’s another topic). Not a very good setting for Honor among Thieves. Moreover, a good number of these “reliable” operators were therefore nodes of the underworld, who themselves had close links to Pakistani Govt, good old BCCI, the drug oligarchs and the like. These ultimate authorities now had something to establish an iron-clad control over those rebellious Sikhs operating deep inside India. They wouldn’t and they indeed didn’t waste that opportunity to have even greater control on the Khalistan Movement.
See how things just got better and better?
BTW, I was overjoyed in reading your very imaginative uvaachas on “cash filled go-downs with armed guards”. Seen too many Gangster movies, eh? 😀 You have any idea how difficult it is for a do numbri setup to store so many asli notes…. how difficult is to procure used notes in the first place? You have any idea on the effort it takes to find large denomination used notes that can’t be traced via serial number sequences? Pray tell us how these humongous cash treasures (in Indian Currency) are realized at the other end without going into some sort of a paper trail at some point? Of course you can bide your time and release this cash after five years, but would the other end tolerate such backlogs for such extended periods? Trust can take you only so far……
I have attained even more Paramananda reading your off-handed, schoolboy-logic suggestions of simply “finding more operators… channelized… tranches”. If only you realized what logistical effort and high risk such a move entails?! And when ONE reliable hawaladar link is hard to come by (but then you knew so many good people in Chandni Chowk! 🙂 ) this kid talks about a NUMBER of such links.
As the MacDonald’s ad goes “I am lovin’ it!”. 🙂
I had written to WTF before:
“Lets do a small exercise here.
Give me a list of all the things that you consider to be “secular”.
Tell me what you consider to be the biggest threat to it.
Then tell me why we should not support a ban on Koran in order to achieve secularism?
Also tell me whats wrong in helping followers of Islam (99% of whom are children of Hindu converts in the subcontinental context), RETURN BACK to their Hindu origins”.
@ WTF:
let us all see how you and others who call themselves ’secular’ compromise with the existance of Koran as the defining “way of life” for 20% population of India in the first place 🙂
here is another “isolated act of violence” by followers of Koran during Durga Puja this year.
——————-
Islamic attacks on Durga Puja in East London (2007)
http://www.hinduvoice.co.uk/Issues/21/DurgaPooja.htm
Hindu Voice UK, Diwali 2007
For many years, the Sanaton Association (a group that promotes Bengali and Hindu culture in East London) has organized Durga Pujas at the Toynbee Hall in Aldgate.
The Durga Puja is a joyous festival celebrated during the Navratri period by Bengali Hindu communities in India, Bangladesh and the rest of the world.
Unfortunately this year the peaceful celebrations were disrupted twice, by Muslim youths, who attacked an elderly devotee on one occasion and then tried to smash the Murti of Mother Durga as it was being led out at the end of the festival. The elderly people present there were frightened and some of the children were in tears as they witnessed this harassment, whilst the younger worshippers confronted the attackers and a fight broke out between them, which only dissipated when the police arrived………………
@Khujur:
In the fall of 1979, ethnic/religious violence erupted in Shillong, the capital of Meghalaya, after local Khasi youths vandalized Durga Puja pandals and idols in an apparently organized set of incidents. A number of people lost their lives. The Assam Rifles were deployed on the streets of the town and curfew was imposed for weeks to restore law and order.
Today, after on-again off-again ethnic tensions for more than two decades Bengalis in Shillong enjoy a vibrant and festive Durga Puja season, with innumerable Pujas in various localities, celebrations which are both religiously and ethnically inclusive of all. The place has grown prosperous and ordinary people are more interested in the prospects of a brighter future than in keeping simmering fires of ethnic and religious conflict burning.
Khasis are predominantly Christian.
One wonders how this transformation came about. Nobody sacrificed their culture, background or history, nobody had to resort to ‘mass conversion’, nobody had to call in the knickers and lathis, and oh, nobody had to ban the Bible.
Maybe, just like simple ordinary folk everywhere, they learned to live with each other and build better lives for themselves, instead of living their entire lives in fear, paranoid about losing their identity.
Maybe, just maybe, it’s not all about religion after all.
Step back. Take a breath. Live. And let others live.
Dear Pakele:
Thanks for a sensible post.
The return of converted people back to Aagama Hindu traditions AND THE SUBSEQUENT TRUCE can be credited to the AGRESSIVE Seng Khasi movement.The Seng Khasi movement checked the flow of converts to the church… and thereby defanged the Church-induced hostility towards Hindus and Durga Puja.
See this link….and if you care…read the article
http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1998/4/1998-4-16.shtml
INDIGENOUS PEOPLES
Tribal Tribulations
My personal encounter with the impact of Christian conversion on Meghalaya
By Dr. Mihir Meghani, Michigan
I first met the Khasi people of Meghalaya in 1995. A delegation of 30 were touring the state of Maharashtra as part of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh’s project, Bharat Mera Ghar (“India is My Home”). Previously my concept of India’s Northeastern States–Assam, Meghalaya, Tripura, Nagaland, Manipur, Mizoram and Arunachal–was that everyone had converted to Christianity and wanted to separate from Bharat. Now I was delighted to meet this delegation of Khasi Hindus who were patriotic to India and proud of their heritage. I resolved to go to this state when the opportunity arose. By good fortune, the following year was my last in medical school and the curriculum allowed time for experience outside the US. I arranged a position at a clinic with Dr. R. S. Thangkhiew, a Khasi Hindu physician in Shillong, the capital of Meghalaya. As a medical student, I expected to learn a lot about infectious diseases and the consequences of poverty and lack of basic resources on health. I saw those problems, and to some extent could alleviate them through my work as a physician.
As a concerned Hindu, I wanted to experience this state of Bharat that so few people get to experience, learn about the unique culture of the people there and see first hand what Christian missionaries were doing. I was truly shocked by the rampant discrimination that Christians meted out to non-Christians (mostly Hindus, including Khasis, Sikhs, Assamese and Bengalis). Christian denominations control almost 100 percent of the state’s educational and health care institutions and resources. Most of them give discounts to those people who identify themselves with the particular Christian sect that runs that institution. Additionally, in many hospitals if an individual cannot pay his bill at the end of his stay, the hospital will offer to waive the full amount if he converts to Christianity. Most top government jobs are given to Christians, and there are barely any non-Christian members in the state legislature.
Aprial Mon Thangkhiew, a resident of Shillong, explained how this all happened. “Missionaries got converts because of education,” she told me. “Converts got admission to colleges and hostels outside the Northeast while non-Christians did not. Poor Khasis couldn’t afford to go outside. Only Christians got scholarships. My cousin was a Presidency College Gold Medalist, but he didn’t get a scholarship, because he was not a Christian. Conversion was the price for higher education. People converted because of educational and economic reasons initially. So, the poor, bright people converted, and then the other poor followed. If these preferences were not offered, people would not have converted.”
Thangkhiew went on, “The Christians and British tried to teach us to hate our culture–song, dance, religion, everything. If we sang a Khasi song, they would laugh at us. They called us devil worshipers. They preached in our schools and brainwashed Khasis. The converted Khasis were just like them. They laughed at us when we went to our dances. I went to the Presbyterian school. I had many good friends. However, after some of them were converted to Christianity, they told me, ‘We’ll go to heaven and you’ll go to hell.’ They didn’t realize that they were dishonoring their ancestors. The British policy of sending missionaries didn’t do anything for us except weaken our culture. They converted all the Syiems [local rulers] except the Syiem of Nongkrum. Then other people converted.”
The 50 percent of Khasis who did not convert are one of the few communities of the Northeast that still maintains their ancient traditions. They believe in one universal God, U Blei, who is the creator of everything. They do not have a written text or scripture, and the heritage verbally passes from generation to generation. The basic principle of Khasi religion is similar to the eternal principles of other tribal faiths. It is to earn righteousness in the world. The basic precept is that to know God, one must first know, love and respect fellow human beings. Prayer, song and dance are important aspects of the culture. Throughout the year, there are community dances where villagers get together. In March and April is the most important, the Shad Suk Mynsiem, (shad means dance, suk means happiness or tranquility and mynsiem means soul or heart), a dance of joy, merriment, gratitude and thanksgiving. Khasis follow a matrilineal system. The wife keeps her mother’s last name, children keep the mother’s last name and the youngest daughter inherits the family property.
Attempts during British times to resist the Christianization of the people generally failed. Jrin Mon Thangkhiew recalls, “My grandfather, Babu Jeebon Roy, wanted to start a school to promote the Khasi culture and religion and strengthen ties with the rest of India. He approached the British Government in 1875 and was told to get permission from the Welsh Calvinist Mission, which had been entrusted the task of propagating education. The missionaries replied, ‘We have only come to educate your people to the extent that they can read the Bible. Anyway, your people do not have enough brains for higher studies.’ ” Nevertheless, in 1876, the Shillong High School opened with Roy’s own money. But the Christian missionaries could not tolerate it because they realized it was a threat to their control of education, a main tool for proselytization. The government was forced to give control of the school to the Presbyterian missionaries, and subsequently, education about Khasi heritage was eliminated. Christianity became the sole religion taught, and the medium of instruction was changed from Bengali to English.
I was shocked to discover that the latest method for gaining converts was simple fear. Missionaries were telling the people that the apocalypse–a time predicted in the Christian Bible when the world is destroyed and only righteous Christians are saved–will occur in the year 2000. I was asked time and again by frightened local people if it was true. “Of course not,” I told them, “hardly any Christians in the world believe such a prediction.” It is a version of the old “best bet” conversion argument used for centuries in the West. Dr. Sam Pamei, a Christian from Nagaland who lives in Shillong, gave me the Meghalaya version: “If I have a choice to be a Christian and face no bad outcome from the perspective of my indigenous religion, or to follow my indigenous religion and face eternal damnation if Christianity is the true way, then the safe bet is to become a Christian.” According to Sunil Deodhar, the missionaries are resorting to such extreme measures because, “Due to the work of Seng Khasi, Sein Raj and RSS, they are gaining fewer new converts and are actually losing many old converts back to the indigenous fold. This threat of eternal damnation is their last-ditch attempt to win converts.”
Many organizations have been dealing with these challenges. Since 1899, Seng Khasi has been working to maintain the indigenous Khasi culture and religion and defend it against attacks from Christian missionaries. Seng Khasi and its sister group, Sein Raj, organize Khasi religious and cultural programs, hold regular prayers and meetings and publish material to educate people about the Khasi heritage. The Ramakrishna Mission has been active for decades. More recently, the RSS, Seva Bharati and Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram have assisted Seng Khasi and Sein Raj with their programs and set up many schools, student and youth hostels and medical clinics. However, all these groups encounter constant opposition from Christians.
When I left Meghalaya in 1996, I felt among Khasis a growing sense of pride in their religion, culture and heritage. Two hundred years ago Hindus may have been at a technological, economic and political disadvantage. But today Hindus have all the resources they need to support our fellow brothers and sisters. If the Northeast goes, then many other tribal communities are susceptible to severing ties with the age-old Hindu society. Today, as tribal communities are strengthening their identities, there is a need to reaffirm to them that they are an integral part of Hindu society and that Hindu society will neither take them away from their traditional beliefs and culture, nor swallow them. Each time a Hindu community converts, their unique contribution to the religious and cultural melting pot is lost and Hinduism becomes less diverse.
@ Pakele
Thanks for reading the experiences of Mihir in the previous article. But I appreciate and thank you for the fact that you wrote in a meaningful way.
@Khujur:
I don’t need to read propaganda by a pracharak sitting in Michigan, who met a few handpicked Khasi people, probably for the one and only time in his entire life, through a RSS project in Maharashtra in 1995!
I was born and brought up in Shillong, was educated there, spent my formative years there and I think I know a little more about Khasi culture and mindset than a NRI armchair pundit who wouldn’t be able to tell a Khasi from a Angami even if you pointed a gun at him.
From my personal interaction with Khasis over the course of half of my life, which of course, does not have the benefit of knowledge accumulated through Google, such as the article by the esteemed Mr.Meghani, most Khasis who are not Christian do not take kindly to being labeled Hindus, because they consider the animist traditions they followed for centuries to be unique and not related to mainstream Hinduism in any way or form.
Also, the ethnic and tribal bonds shared by Khasis (and absolutely any tribal society in the world) are much much stronger than any real or artificial bonds created by religion. When an organization like Seng Khasi strives for restoration of Khasi culture and Khasi pride, it has very little to do with religion, and every bit to do with the very real phenomenon of erosion of traditional cultural values.
The only link this has with your dream of ‘taking them back to the Hindu fold’ is in your demented mind. People like you and Mr. Meghani have and will forever exploit and pimp such causes and organizations to drum up support and money for your bigoted selves from naive deep-pocketed NRIs.
The above comment was mine.
@ Pakele
As someone with strong family ties with the Santals (a vanavasi community from Bengal and Chotta Nagpur), I understand your personal views and respect them.
But there is no denying that Seng Khasi movement has strong support for and from the Hindus. The enormous work done by Seng Khasi in countering violent fundamentalist Christians deserves praise and support which tribals and non-tribal Hindus provided.
@ Pakele
As for Mihir Meghani, he is a dedicated Hindu activist who gave up his career as a doctor to work for Hindus around the world. Just because he was born in the US doesnt make him a pariah.
PS: I have known him personally for 3 years. WTF and Shan here is a bone for u guys to chew on.
@ Pakele
As someone from Shillong I am sure you know about this a lot..but let the readers decide how much the fundamentalist Christians had dented the Khasi culture and what Seng Khasi did to save Khasis (unlike the way you presented it as a wishy washy peaceful co-existance). http://www.ocms.ac.uk/abstracts/pdf/1998_mylliemngap.pdf
@Khujur: “But there is no denying that Seng Khasi movement has strong support for and from the Hindus.”
This is bull and you know it. You have no evidence of this and are just mouthing bs to get in the last word.
At the risk of repeating myself, let me say again, that the Seng Khasi movement was formed and exists today to counter the erosion of ‘Khasi culture’. That, O Khujur, is different from saying that it exists for the glory of Hinduism.
“the enormous work done by Seng Khasi in countering violent fundamentalist Christians”
I have seen ethnic trouble in Shillong. I have experienced a disdain of other religions by proselytizing Christian fundies (just like you) in Shillong. But I have NEVER EVER come across violent fundamentalist Christians in Shillong or anywhere else in Meghalaya.
But then you would know better. Since you have read Mr. Mihir Meghani’s articles.
Please do not propagate lies on this forum.
@ Pakele who by his own admission also goes by the name Sister Melissa
Thank Seng Khasi for restoring the celebration of Durga Pooja back in Meghalaya.
@khujur:
I also go by the name of ‘Sweet Melissa’, which for your kind information, is one of my favourite songs.
But then the Allman Brothers aren’t converted fundamentalist Christians propagating violence in the remote corners of North Eastern India. So I don’t think you would care.
@ Pakele/Melissa
Jeebon Roy the FOUNDER of the Seng Khasi movement would probably disagree with you (with due respects to your personal opinion).
He was great educationist, scholar and thinker, who wrote, translated and published books on Ramayana, Bhagavad-Gita and the lives of Buddha and Shri Chaitanya.
I am not lying. But I did not live in Shillong so I value your opinion on the field situation in this regard.
Ondorshon Maurie a senior Seng Khasi leader has this to say
“In the case of the former (Christianity), the physical and the cultural conquests are closely and inseparably inter-related, whereas in the case of the Hindu, the janajati cultural specialities have not suffered in the least for ages. True, while some of the janajati groups have no hesitation in calling themselves Hindus, a few others like the Khasis are still reluctant to do so. But even the latter frankly declare that among the Bharatiya faiths, the ‘Hindu’ faith is like their ‘elder sister’.”
@ Melissa/Pakele
Mihir Meghani b.t.w is now often in the Washington DC area, and leads a group called H.A.F which has done a lot of work recenty.
http://www.hinduamericanfoundation.org/
You can send him your opinion on visit report to mihir.meghani@hinduamericanfoundation.org
@Khujur:
No, I’m not getting into another pointless debate (or, in your case, ‘Google War’) with you…some of us work for a living.
Jeebon Roy was all you say and more. So what??
How does that entitle you to exploit his good name to propagate your bigotry? He fought for the enlightnement and empowerment of the Khasis through education and social reform. Something that you are not aware of, in the middle of your wet dreams about eliminating followers of heathen religions.
“I am not lying”
Oh yes you are. You sir, are the biggest fake and to ever grace GB’s comments section.
When you suggest that Seng Khasi is fighting ‘violent fundamentalist Christians’ in Shillong, you are L.Y.I.N.G.
But it comes so naturally to you, you don’t notice.
“I did not live in Shillong so I value your opinion on the field situation…”
The fuck you do. You do not value ANYONE’s opinion.
If you did you would not be pushing half-truths and all-out lies and twist facts to suit the ideology you want peddle.
And going on and on and on and on for two whole weeks…
Holy smoke, has it been that long!!
@ Melissa/Pakele
“When you suggest that Seng Khasi is fighting ‘violent fundamentalist Christians’ in Shillong, you are L.Y.I.N.G.”
As I quoted…Seng Khasi leaders, its completely opposite to what you claim.
I would rather believe what the Seng Khasi leaders say, than what you say.
Welcome back to your abusive self.
Melissa/Pakele:
in the middle of your wet dreams about eliminating followers of heathen religions.
Rishi’s response
For your info, different panths of Hinduism and native traditions are considered “Heathen” by the Christian fundamentalists.
I can see where you are coming from.
Oh really? And where AM I coming from Khujur?
Pray, enlighten us with your boundless knowledge and wisdom. Don’t leave things unsaid and insinuations hanging. Please, let the bile flow. We’ve got so used to it that a bland statement from you leaves us…kind of shocked.
@Khujur:
“I would rather believe what the Seng Khasi leaders say, than what you say.”
For someone who has heard of the term “Seng Khasi” for the first time in his life hardly four hours ago, you put on quite a show, don’t you?
Just what do you know about the Khasi people? Have you even heard their language? Do you know anything about their society, other than what your pet hate sites feed you? Have you ever stepped into the ethnic cauldron that is North East India? Have you lived the life, have you faced the problems? Do you even KNOW what the problems are?
Were you there in Shillong when Pope John Paul II visited and people from all walks of life, all ethnic backgrounds, and yes, all RELIGIONS, turned up in their thousands to greet him? Were you there in Shillong earlier this year when Amit Paul won the VOI contest, when people from all walks of life, all ethnicities and yes, all RELIGIONS, cheered and partied all night in spite of Amit being a oh-so-hapless Hindu in the middle of ‘violent, Christian Fundamentalist’ Shillong? Do you know about the quality of primary education that Shillong’s century old Christian (probably fundamentalist too…but you’ll know better) institutions are famed for?
And what did Mr.Ondorshon Maurie have to say? That non-Christian Khasis are reluctant to call themselves Hindu. Oh goody! Strike one for the chaddhis.
And then, there’s you, sitting in the United States (judging from your posting habits, unless you’re a compuslive insomniac googler), pontificating away on the lives of millions of people in my country, claiming to speak for people you have never even heard of, leave alone know first hand.
Where do you people come from?
@ Melissa/Pakele wrote
Were you there in Shillong when Pope John Paul II visited and people from all walks of life, all ethnic backgrounds, and yes, all RELIGIONS, turned up in their thousands to greet him?
Rishi’s response:
No..I have never been to the North East nor I have been to Kashmir or Darfur.
But it doesnt take a domicile resident to see what is going on there my friend. As for the grand reception that your Pope got in the North East…just wait a few more days…before the next best thing (overpopulation from migrating Bangladeshi Islamists), and you will be hiding the Pope statues under your bed for fear of having your balls chopped off.
And btw, if you didnt know the comments made by the Seng Khasi leaders was at a RSS event…
Melissa/Pakele wrote:
(judging from your posting habits, unless you’re a compuslive insomniac googler)..
Rishi’s response:
Aah….here comes the perpetually abusive…commentator who knows nothing about me or what I am talking about.
Secularism:
List of secular things?
‘Secular things’ are not grocery items. Secularism is a concept- one of the fountains of freedom in a democracy.
(fun fact: It is such a simple principle that having allowed equality of all faiths via Article 14 and freedom of conscience via Article 19, the Constitution only mentions in its preamble that India is a Secular country. It did not need to be elaborated.)
Secularism means that the government does not associate itself with religion/religious matters.
So not only would the government stop each religion from killing each other,
MOST IMPORTANTLY,
it protects individuals from the tyranny of organized religion (i.e. you love to say muslims are the victims of islam, well secularism will protect muslims from islam, the way it does in Turkey, just the way it protects hindus from Hinduism in India)
So no matter what crap is written in the scriptures, nobody can be coerced into following them. But of course, as Mr. Shourideb believes this a sign of the effeminate or a mental disease.
That is one aspect.
The second is that while the government is expected to be rational, an individual has the right to be as irrational as they want and believe anything they want… (if i wanted to take a cheap shot i’d say you avail this freedom quite liberally but i’m above that)… Santa Claus, Easter bunny, a 100% hindu India, AS LONG as it does not affect other people. HHBB claims the right to hate muslims passively being part of democracy.
It is anathema to secularism to ban scripture or for that matter a country that prides itself on freedom. Today it’s the Koran tomorrow it will be violence in video games/movies or smoking on screen. Day after, God forbid, it’ll be internet porn.
In a true secular country, we would have a UCC and no haj subsidy. Also, beef slaughter would be allowed. (hmm..)
Right to live life without choices dictated by a mullah, a pracharak or a priest. so if religion conflicts with modernity, modernity prevails. That is secularism.
On banning the Koran:
All religions have parts which are in contravention with modernity. Banning them is a ludicrous solution.
Or tomorrow should we ban Hindu scripture for causing oppression of Dalits thereby causing a law and order situation? I know many Buddhist monks to be corrupt ..so we ban Buddhism for festering corruption through alms?
Banning the Koran means directly interfering in the personal spiritual choice of a person.
It is FORBIDDEN under the Constitution of India. Unless you want to Google ‘Ambedkar Idiot’ (in that case Mayawati will have your head), I am not interested in this line of argument.
It is not for the government to tell people what they should believe in or not. What next?
A law saying Hritik Roshan is a superior actor to Shah Rukh Khan?
@ attacks on durga pujas:
the first glaring thing was the difference in how the UK police handled the situation and the way the Indian police handled things in the two examples you cited.
Of course.. you just see.. muslim.. muslim..
There are infinite examples of muharram processions being attacked all over India. You think we’re idiots to think that attacks on hindus are one-sided?
It is for this reason that indian newspapers have a convention of not naming parties when religious trouble breaks out. it happens all over the country all the time just like robbery, rape and murders. but no one is terrorized into not following their religion like you claim. outside gujarat of course. cheap shot. sorry.
On conversion/ ‘reversion’ (HA HA.. I still cant get over the funniness of that term):
Ok…… sure convert as many people as you want… ’save them’ as christain missionaries say..
At the same time.. if people VOLUNTARILY (without coercion/incentives) covert to Christianity or Islam you cannot object to that either. Prickly situation.. what?
The whole point of having one ‘original’ religion is so intellectually bankrupt..
Show me ONE religion.. Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Sikhism which is practised uniformly.. which does not have sects inside it that fight each other?
Destroying Islam in order to solve human sectarianism is as delicate and ineffective a solution as demolishing a house to kill the mosquito inside.
and dont forget to invite me for the pixie tea party.
@ Melissa/Pakele
And you have the galls to push your Vatican “harvester of souls” and have no problem with that…but when I talk of Seng Khasi and the traditional systems being part of the larger Dharmic panths, you have a problem with that….
some double standards
What is secularism?
1. Right to eat bhog
2. Right to eat biriyani
3. Right to eat christmas cake.
4. Right to eat at a langar
5. Right to eat matso bread (er, that is the only jewish food whose name I remember, there was this chicken dish too, but i have forgotten the name).
According to the hindu philosophy AM allowed to be a Hindu atheist!
Prize for rishi_khujur for making this the looooooongest thread, so far.
But then, I still don’t endorse his view that the moment a child gets to read the Koran, he/she turns into a flaming jihadi, paradise bent on spreading murder, mayhem and what have you.
If the other faiths have so far survived, they will go on surviving and having die-hard followers.
@pakele/melissa
Is north-east all about ethnic tension? Who is funding the anti-Indian feelings? China, Pakistan? I would rather read your views.
@ Swati di
Very well put…am in total agreement with u about how you look at secularism.
Our only point of difference is that I consider Islam (and Koran’s message) to be the biggest threat to all that you explained to be cherished as secularism (gawd..now I am a hungry secualrist).
@rishi_khujur
It amuses me to think thatif you had been born in a Muslim family, your war cry would have been ‘Save the only one and true religion……..’.
And under MY defination of secularism I should have added…..
6. Right to eat chow-mein without knowing or caring about either Confucious or Chairman Mao.
@ Swati di:
Very interesting, actually Thalassa claimed that too….
I somehow feel that if I were born into Islam, my name would be in the list of former Muslims (apostates), like Ibn Warraq and Ali Sina and Anwar Sheikh….and given the amount of activism I am involved in, My lifespan would have been really short.
But then again…its pure conjecture.
btw Swati di:
All the names I gave above, lived/live in hiding for the fear of execution.
Takes a lot of courage to fight the Koran if you were born with it…
given the way we see those that are born outside it chicken out just by the mention of it.
@ WTF
Thanks for a detailed post.. i shall respond soon.
@Swati:
“Is north-east all about ethnic tension? Who is funding the anti-Indian feelings? China, Pakistan? I would rather read your views.”
Well thank you.
But first, a rant. Bear with me. I am not a student of history. I don’t have historical facts, figures, dates and names at my fingertips, and I really don’t have time to Google up facts to copy and paste. Besides, I believe people on this forum are net-savvy enough to do it themselves. And I think Wikipedia is a better place to get information than the Khujur’s coloured interpretation of the same facts.
Getting back to your question, anti-Indian feelings in the north-east are nothing new. Yes, they are being fanned and funded now by external agencies, but that’s only our friendly neighbours jumping at opportunities that present themselves. We don’t expect any less from them, of course.
Even a casual study will tell you that the indigenous people of the North East were never pro-India to being with.
Take Manipur for example. A state with an overwhelming Hindu population. And while it may sorely disappoint the Khujurs with their one-track India=Hinduism understanding of our country, the fact is that in spite of being staunch Vaishnavs, Manipuris don’t feel very Indian at all.
For a people whose history can be traced back to the First Century and beyond, who had a rich culture of classical literature, music and dances, whose marital prowess had beaten back invaders from Burma and Thailand over the centuries, and who had a written constitution and a process of democratization in place before while Muslims and Hindus were slaughtering each other in ‘mainland India’ after Independence from Britain, for such a people, to have their King airlifted to Shillong by force by the Indian military and being forced to sign an instrument of accession was the ultimate humiliation in their history. And they have not forgotten it.
Nagaland is a different situation, as far as I know, and please correct me if my facts are wrong. There, the insurgency started when the British were about to leave India. Christian missionaries, who had made inroads into the warring Naga tribes and converted many of the animist Nagas to Christianity, were used extensively by the British to build up resistance among the Nagas to the fledging Union of India. Angami Phizo, who at one time fought the British as part of INA-Japanese force, was propped up as the leader of this ‘movement’. Christian missionaries and British operatives continued to fund this insurgency, in the hopes that they could engineer a ‘Pakistan’ here too. It was a political game and had very little to do with religious conflict, as Khujur will, no doubt, want to point out.
Let the Googling begin! And Khujur is off the blocks in a flash…
@ Melissa/Pakele
You say “Christian missioneries funding violence”….
and then you say it has nothing to do with religion.
Can you put your head up your a** any further 🙂
@Khujur:
I also mentioned a overwhelmingly Hindu majority Manipuri insurgency fighting the overwhelmingly Hindu majority India for the last six decades.
But you need to take your own head out of your a** to see that.
@Khujur:
I said “Christian missionaries and British operatives continued to fund this insurgency”.
And you know why? Because that is a fact, and unlike your demented kind, I don’t need to twist it.
“and then you say it has nothing to do with religion.
Yes, it has nothing to do with religion.
Hindu pilgrims being burnt by Muslim mobs. Muslim families being butchered by Hindu mobs. Innocent people killed, and why? Because they belonged to a particular religion.
THAT, my friend, has to do with religion.
If the Nagaland insurgency was about religion, the miniscule Hindu/Muslim population there would have been ethnically cleansed a LONG time ago. That, of course, would have been more up your alley.
Instead, I have relatives in Nagaland, living there for the past forty years. And yes, they celebrate Durga Puja in Nagaland too.
And you know why? Because they haven’t been poisoned by the likes of you yet.
@Khujur:
You are grabbing at straws here my friend. Your desperate attempts to turn each and every point presented by anybody here into yet another example of ‘Hindusim under threat’ are becoming laughable.
I, for one, have nothing particularly against Hinduism, or any other organized religion for that matter. I have equal contempt for all of them. I think organized religion is the biggest curse on humanity. And it astounds me when I see educated people like you spouting dogma and frothing at the mouth with religious indignation.
But hopefully your hatred will end with you and not pass on to another generation. There is hope yet.
@ Melissa/Pakele
The NSCN bans any Hindu festivals like Durga Puja/saraswati Puja in Nagaland. So dont lie.
As for me being the last of my generation (you wish), I am sure you and your Pope would very much want that.
Pakele/melissa:
You made a big mistake by bringing in Nagaland and Manipur at the same time. Shows how little u understand the NE.
Manipur is the sad result of pseudo secularism (and the pampering of likes of u)
The frustration of Hindus of over continued pampering and divisive minorytism by succesive pseudo secualrist goverments of India can be seen in Hindu-majority Manipur. Let the readers decide on the reason why Hindus in Manipur have finally realized that nobody cares for Hindus in India.(and Wanderer can attest to the veracity of SAAG from where this article is taken)
http://www.saag.org/papers13/paper1210.html
@The Khujur:
“Shows how little u understand the NE.”
Of course. Of course.
–Vasabjit Banerjee does not understand anything either. He is a pseudo-secular fool who needs your guidance (“Yes..I know the difference between “South Asian” “Sufism”, as you call it, and Wahabbism.
I am not sure if you know of the similarities. In any case, you may want to check Arnab’s previous post where I have given reading references on the same issue.”)
–Ishani Duttagupta is a poor naive babe-in-the-woods who needs your spiritual guidance in matters of religious hatred (“shoonchen…ekbaar amaar shonge bole dekhun, ,’islamic mob’..ektu cheshta kore dekhun..kotha ta theek berobe mukh diye.”)
–Arijit is another naive ‘pseudo’ secular fool who needs your expertise (“democracy of the ‘islamic’ mob, for the ‘islamic’ mob, by the ‘islamic’ mob. Comon, say it after me….practice a few times and finally we can get the courage to speak the truth.”)
–Bewildered is yet another poor soul who understands little and is in need of your assistance (“Were you “bewildered” when innocent Hindus were killed by rioting Muslims in Maharashtra, because…….Saddam Hussain was being hung in Iraq.”)
–Annonx is actually stirring up Islamic hordes to unleash ‘Kuranic violence’ against women! (“It about your ability to condone violence against women by turning a blind eye to planned Kuranic violence targeting women just because they are Kafirs.”)
–Shubs is an immature prick not worthy enough to warrant your attention in such bhari-bharkam topics (“Friend..I get your point. That is the reason why I suggested you to feel relieved by reading the funnier movie and cricket writings. You will not find “blowhard” material in their comment sections.”)
–WTF is another one waaay out of his depth (“Your understanding of the Khalistan movement is very less. Understand “Operation Topac” first.”)
–Wanderer is of course just another JNU jhola-wala whose only expertise is the use of Nazi terminology and his attempts to sound ‘uber-cool’
–And finally, The Khujur himself, in third person:
“Forget for a moment the Rishi Khujur is writing this.
Now as a normal thoughful person, you draw your own conclusion.”
What you need, my friend, is a very good shrink.
@The Khujur:
“The NSCN bans any Hindu festivals like Durga Puja/saraswati Puja in Nagaland. So dont lie.”
Absolutely. My relatives in Dimapur just went into a deep sleep for four days this October and woke up thinking they had enjoyed another year of Durga Puja celebrations. Just like they do every year.
Lying? I wouldn’t dare to! That’s your field of expertise.
After all you are omnipresent and know everything there is to know in the known universe.
“Manipur is the sad result of pseudo secularism (and the pampering of likes of u)”
Ooookay. NOW I’ve heard everything. 🙂
And oh, there was the link. I was wondering how such an article would interest you, coming as it did from a non-knicker website. Then I came upon the lines “Meiteis, the Vaishnavite Hindus are not only debarred from special constitutional privileges granted to Scheduled Tribes but not even permitted under state Land Reform Act to settle in the hill districts. However, there is no such restriction on Nagas and Kukis, who are largely Christians to settle in the valley. “.
Unfortunately Khujur, this is not the root of the insurgency problem in Manipur. It is just part of the problem between the Meiteis and the Kukis over the concept of Greater Nagaland, or Nagalim. The Manipuri insurgency is fighting for the independence of Manipur from the Indian union, not for land reforms for Hindu Meiteis similar to Christian STs.
The author was using the above fact to highlight the “mistrust between Meiteis and the hill tribes”.
But you, as expected, have tried to use this to present this complicated issue as a religious problem.
But then, are we surprised?
From a link that Rishi gave above:
“The Durga Puja is a joyous festival celebrated during the Navratri period by Bengali Hindu communities in India, Bangladesh and the rest of the world.
Unfortunately this year the peaceful celebrations were disrupted twice, by Muslim youths, who attacked an elderly devotee on one occasion and then tried to smash the Murti of Mother Durga as it was being led out at the end of the festival. The elderly people present there were frightened and some of the children were in tears as they witnessed this harassment, whilst the younger worshippers confronted the attackers and a fight broke out between them, which only dissipated when the police arrived.”
I am amazed how routinely pseudo seculars ignore such acts when they try to refute the fact that there is something wrong with Islam. The marvellous instrument for breeding camaradrie, and at the same an unparalled tool for generating hatered towards non-bleievers. So why did the youth attack the deity? Why not a mosque? Beacuse of the in built hatered of Quran. Now wheather a person is going to be affected by the words of the Quran is dependent on the person, but their is always a >0 probability that a fraction of the Muslim population will. Events like this should not be taken lightly. There have been plenty of incidents like this for over 2000 years, as Rishi has carefully documented. Examine the nature of the attacks. Well directed towards another religious faith. In short this kind of info gives further credence to Rishi’s interpretation of the Hadiths in a previous post.
“The aggressors shouted that the area was “their patch” and that they would “not have Hindus worshipping their gods” there. Yet, in the UK, there are no such things as “Muslim areas” or any other exclusive ghettos for that matter. Algate and Whitechapel happen to have a striving BANGLADESHI community, and that means both Hindus and Muslims.”
Imagine the sense of entitlement. When was the last time that you heard a bunch of Hindu or buddhist youths kicking the asses of some muslims who were praying? The muslim youths would not dare to do such a thing in gujrat. Therefore the method to deal with Islamic fascists is to allow them equal priveleges and rights. But at the slightest instance of any religious atrocity, directed towards anyone of another religion, the perpetrators should be tortured so unimaginably viciously and violently that they would think twice before creating another nuisense. Now extend this rule to all people when it comes to violence in the name of religion and maintain a count of the nature of the religion of the offenders. Take my word- and compare this with past records too….just check the proportion of the “followers of the koran” in that population.
@ yourfan2:
stick to insulting people. it makes better reading.
“But at the slightest instance of any religious atrocity, directed towards anyone of another religion, the perpetrators should be tortured so unimaginably viciously and violently that they would think twice before creating another nuisense”
actually no.. your solutions are equally funny.
@ rishi:
“… have tried to use this to present this complicated issue as a religious problem” – pakele.
see that. that’s your input on all matters.
After the majesterial work of exposing the filthiness of the disease called Islam,the high point of which was a quote which would anyday enter with ease into the top 10 quotes of all time, “Muslims are as much a victim of Islam as the rest of humanity”; Rishi Khujur has done a great service to the young readers of this blog by hinting at the deadly infection/mind control-mind share tool called Christianity. Radical forms of all religions are like diseases. Some people affected by a particular disease show a big time propensity to transmit that disease deliberately to others. Islam does it by force. Christians do it in a slightly back handed way with the manipulation of capital. Economic incentives are given to poor people to convert as more converts mean a more profitable business. Just like sales people are brainwashed by their managers about a particular product and are asked in turn to brainwash customers about the product, the Bible does an excellent job of salesmanship as good as say a Proctor and Gamble by introducing concepts like heaven and hell to breed fear amongst consumers.
Th situation is fine as long as the laws do not try to impose Christian values on others like intelligent design. As a businessman, what Rishi insists is an fair opportunity to enter the monopoly market of prozelityzation. Remember, he does not insist the use of force. Force should only be used when an opposing businessmen are trying to hurt his business. “Hey Rishi, you will not do that puja here”, would be treated with “Is that so? Hurt my consumers and I will cut up your knocked-up daughter.” Consumers would be shown the more emancipating product of Hinduism and given an opportunity to emancipate themselves by the method of conversion. Wheather Hinduism is a great product is debatable, but there should be no doubt about the safety and relative emancipation level of the product. The product in fact is more safe for people who do not endosre that brand of product. Say if I drink Coke and you drink Pepsi. Then we should be free to choose between the two. We may not drink either of them. But if Pepsi salesmen hold a gun in my face and force me to eschew Coke, then I am missing out on many choices. It could be that the Coke salesmen do not indulge in such practices, and if they do it, it is statistically insignificant compared to the Pepsi salesmen. So in this case, I would be perfectly happy to see the shrinking of the Pepsi business to the level where there is minimal danger to exercise choice. If someday I dont like coke, it wont stop me from trying mountain dew. Similarly, as an athiest, I would be perfectly happy to sit back and see the diminishing influence of the more dangerous mind control/ mind share/ prozelityzing tools like Christianity and Islam.
I differ with Rishi about his opinion on the ban of Koran. But I understand his concern. If a pseudo secular government, like say the Congress over the years or the CPM in Bengal continue to endorse radical Islam and its various manifestations like Simi or infiltration of terrorists, while taking every opportunity to stymie the business of Hinduism, then it is not a fair/ secualar government. I dont want to pay haj subsidies from my pocket. Sorry. Not a single paisa. So somehow these self proclaimed secular parties tend to create an assymetry of distance between state and religion- Islam can be as close to the state (eg. no uniform civil code and sentiments like “Dont call that Tasleema mob as a religious mob- its a law and order problem”), but Hindusim is a whipping-boy. Thereby we have a situation of asymmetrical seperation of religion from the state scenario, something which defeats the purpose and premise of secularism.
I like this response on this link:
“BIBLE NAZI – A fundamentalist christian who thinks it is a violation of their rights if they are denied the opportunity to use the coercive power of the state to shove their god down my throat.”
History is by its very nature subjective and can be given a very subtle twist. But facts like prozeytization, demolition of structures of faith and eradication of non believers are well, facts. Thats why Rishi is so right in opposing the propaganda of people like Romila Thapar. I will direct you to a discussion on a similar propaganda in the US- that the US was founded on Judeo-Christian principles. You are going to hear this repeatedly with the US elections looming. Exactly 10 minutes into
this show, a lawyer calls up a radio talk show and claims this Romila Thapar type propaganda. The response of the great man is memorable.
blah blah blah blab blab blab ..b.b.b.b
@pakele
thanks.
The three dimensional sqeeze on Hindu Meitis in Manipur:
1. The pseudo-secularist policies of successive governments at the Center using Hindus and native traditions as the punching bags to placate, subversive groups.
(Started by the longest ruling “secular” party in India, to placate ZA Phizo)
Protagonists: UNLF, PLA, PREPAK, the Kangleipak Communist Party (KCP) and Kanglei Yawol Kunna Lup (KYKL)
2. The Christian fundamentalist supported Naga/Kuki insurgency.
(converted tribes like Kuki and Naga)
Protagonists: NSCN Isaac Muviah and Kanlang groups, Kuki National Front )
3. The flooding of Islamists from Bangladesh threatening resources and life of both Hindu and Christian jnajatis.
Protagonists: the United Islamic Liberation Army (UILA), People’s United Liberation Front (PULF), North East Minority Front (NEMF) and Islamic National Front (INF),
With the comment thread running for so long, I could not just stay away from putting my two cents.
First of all GB, your views on Nandigram was excellent. I will say that you have spoken the truth which obviously came out after you have researched through the issues. As you mentioned that this was not one of your movie review post which you would write in a jiffy but a serious issue which you did take out time to write on and it shows.
I am also with you regarding your views with the debate that is going on. I find myself in the middle of the two camps that has been formed in your comment section, may be little more inclined towards Shan, Sayon, WTF Wanderer and others and if Rishi continues at this rate I might change my middle ground altogether.
I believe Islam has its flaws may be more flawed then other religions. I have not read Koran so I am not sure. Yes both Islam and Christianity has done enormous damage to our part of the world but all of this does not bring up enough vitriol in me to spew venom at other religions. If my religion would have been perfect then these so called bearers of other religions would have had half a chance in our country. I just have to say this to Rishi that rise above this pithy religious fight and just see the people from other religions as your fellow human being, and then think that how can you hate someone so much? Don’t you think if sanity has to prevail then this hatred towards each other has to go away.
As for yourfan2 saying that Rishi is doing a favor to the young mind by calling Islam a filthy disease, I just have to say you this that you must be kidding, right?
I think GB’s readers have the mind of their own. Yes all this debate is definitely not going to change the mind of anyone at least not for me, at the most it had been a knowledge exchange and at times very boring harping the same string and sometimes interesting of course. Yes, I am thankful that a 5-6 year old will not be reading Rishi’s comments. So much of hatred at this formative years would definitely be damaging. Yes, I am proud of my religion because it does not teach me to hate.
To Rishi and everyone else who follow his ideologies of sword for a sword thought that I understand that there is a problem and hatred is not going to solve this. I believe we have to fight our politicians first who play religious card and keeps on dividing the country.
Yes Rishi , you do have lot of energy and enthusiasm but it is a misdirectional one same as a 10-12 year old getting his education from a Madrassa.
I wish you would have put a better use of this energy and knowledge.
@ Suzi:
After so much you wrote against me, I can only say… see the reality…and then follow your heart.
If the past 2000 years of our history staring down your face…and its continuation today doesnt make any difference to you…then these comments from me will not either.
Reality is what refuses to go away when you stop beleiving in it.
the dark side of human nature existed before 622CE.
but was never before institutionalezed so efficently
Dear Rishi,
I was traveling on business for the past 10 days and did not get a chance to check my IM.
I didn’t realize that I had forgotten to give the scholarly references for all 3 of my comments on Vijayanagar.
My first comment’s reference is:
1) A Forgotten Empire: Vijayanagar, by Robert Sewell
My second and third comments are drawn from a number of primary sources like:
1) Achyutarayabhyudayam by Rajanatha (very important reference for Vijayanagar’s battle scenes against the Islamic jihadi armies)
2) Ramarajiyamu by Venkayya;
3) Krishna Raya Vijayam by Kumara Dhurjati
4) Rayavachakamu by Vishwanatha Nayani;
And secondary sources like:
5) A History of South India from Prehistoric Times to the Fall of Vijayanagar Empire, by K. A. Nilakanta Sastri
6) Further Sources of Vijayanagara History, by K. A. Nilakanta Sastri and N. Venkataramanayya
7) The Early Muslim expansion in south India, by N. Venkataramanayya
8) Vijayanagara: Origin of the City and the Empire, by N. Venkataramanayya
9) The Founders of Vijayanagara Before the Foundation of the City, by N. Venkararamanayya
10) Sources of Vijayanagar History, by S. Krishnaswami Aiyangar.
11) A Forgotten Empire: Vijayanagar, by Robert Sewell
One more thing…
Regarding the number of the Muslim soldiers who defected en masse from Vijayanagar to the Islamic cause (at a critical juncture during the battle), their number is 140,000 according to the primary sources I have mentioned above.
I have quoted Robert Sewell’s reference to “5000 Muhammadan cavalry” (in Chapter 15, “Destruction of Vijayanagar”) below. It does not mention if these Muslim cavalrymen came from the Sultans’ armies or from the Vijayanagar’s divisions.
Quote: “This vigorous policy threw the Hindu centre into confusion, upon which 5000 Muhammadan cavalry charged through the intervals of the guns and cut their way into the midst of the disorganised masses, towards the spot where the Raya had taken post.”
– Hujur
All:
To conclude here is what respected American Historian Will Durant said about the Islamic interaction with Hindus in his “Story of Civilization” :
“…probably the bloodiest story in history … a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown by barbarians invading from without and multiplying from within.”
@ Rishi
Yes history had not been good not just for our part of the world but everywhere else too. To me really, it is all about power and money. Power hungry humans never learn anything from history, do they? The two most powerful religions in the world today are at each other’s throat because they want more power. Each of them wants to control the world and they are able to do it because they have the resources. It is second to human nature to impose its authority and superiority. I can assure you that if today we Hindu’s had that kind of power we would have construed some phrase from Gita according to our own vested interest and taken it as our religious vendetta to become even more powerful. Having said that I also know that teachings in Islam has to be revisited and modernization in Islam has to come from within.
Oh wow….. how now brown cow!
Hujur’s Vijayanagar posts are not “drawn from the sources”….. it’s a simple cut and paste of an article posted 3 years ago. 99% of the text in the 2nd post is a direct copy of Hauma Hamiddha’s work (in India-Forum), later copied by others like Kaushal Vepa etc. The 1st was more mix and match though. BTW, I noticed Hujur left out the part of Hindu brigands looting Vijayanagar right after Talikota when he pasted the gory stuff…..
I shall post just three (formatted) links for the benefit of RTDM readers so that can see the marvelous cut-n-paste jobs for what they are;
LINK 1: india-forum DOT com/forums/index DOT php?showtopic=560&mode=threaded&pid=29758
LINK2: manollasa DOT blogspot DOT com/2004/11/reign-of-ramaraya-and-battle-of DOT html
LINK3: Check out the Wikipedia entry on Vijayanagar empire; one whole para (i.e. “Before the early 14th century ……. Hoysala empire merged with the growing Vijayanagara empire.”) matches word-by-word! Coincidence? 🙂
Note how the articles pretty much matches word for word with the three posts? “Drawn from primary and secondary sources”, my a$$!.
Now either Hujur is the HH (and if it so I owe Hujur a sincere apology) ‘coz HH is someone I greatly admired for the last four years… or it is simply more chicanery from the Knickerwaalah side.
Speaking of “sources”, I have very serious allegations to make:
1. “Achyuta Raya Abhyudayam” by Rajanatha Dindima III was about his patron Achyuta Raya (1529-1542). I have serious doubts on Hujur’s tall claim that this work also sheds light on the course of the Battle of Talikota which happened 23 years after the death of Achyuta Raya. Pleej illuminate moi.
2.”Rayavachakamu” is on the polity and campaigns of Krishna Deva Raya (1509-1529), written by a Nayak of his. I wonder how this made the basis of Hujur’s gyaan on the Battle of Talikota/time of Rama Raya (as the posts indicate) which happened 36 years after the death of the magnificent emperor. Please explain with more exact references, like edition, chapter etc.
3. Ditto for Krishnaraya Vijayam. I am 400% sure (as Pervez Mian says) that the devotional poet Dhurjati died long before the Battle of Talikota. That is, when Rama Raya had not even reached the limelight. I know this ‘coz I was given a small lecture on this person when I made a pilgrimage to Kalahasti sometime ago.
4. Ramarajiyamu is a genealogy of the Aravidus (something like the Biblical link from Adam to Jesus) and it was written BEFORE Talikota…. It was written when RamaRaya was the greatest power in the Deccan. 400% sure again!
5. Let me assure you that Nilakanta Shastri’s History of South India nor Sewell can be the source of Hujur’s “own posts”. I frankly don’t know about Aiyyankar and I don’t have Venkataramanayya’s works with me now. Hujur, can you tell me where exactly in these books, especially Venkatramanyya’s, did you find the source of “your own posts”?
It is therefore my analysis that this Hujur has googled up some sources randomly, copy-pasted the same sources mentioned in the India-Forum page and something from vedams books catalog, perhaps. BTW, I wonder how some those sources were quoted for Talikota/Rama Raya by HH when there ain’t no link…. as far as my considerable knowledge (in all humility) goes. 🙂 Never could ask him ‘coz I left I-F soon after that; there a very distasteful thread on the Mahatma, you see.
Oh wow….. how now brown cow!
Hujur’s Vijayanagar posts are not “drawn from the sources”….. it’s a simple cut and paste of an article posted 3 years ago. 99% of the text in the 2nd post is a direct copy of Hauma Hamiddha’s work (in India-Forum), later copied by others like Kaushal Vepa etc. The 1st was more mix and match though. BTW, I noticed Hujur left out the part of Hindu brigands looting Vijayanagar right after Talikota when he pasted the gory stuff…..
I shall post two (formatted) links for the benefit of RTDM readers so that can see the marvelous cut-n-paste jobs for what they are;
LINK 1: india-forum DOT com/forums/index DOT php?showtopic=560&mode=threaded&pid=29758
LINK2: manollasa DOT blogspot DOT com/2004/11/reign-of-ramaraya-and-battle-of DOT html
LINK3: Wikipedia entry on Vijayanagar empire; one whole para (“Before the early 14th century ……. Hoysala empire merged with the growing Vijayanagara empire.”) matches word-by-word! Coincidence? 🙂
Note how the articles pretty much matches word for word with the three posts? “Drawn from primary and secondary sources”, my a$$!.
Now either Hujur is the HH (I am pretty sure it ain’t and IF if’s indeed HH, I owe Hujur a sincere apology) ‘coz HH is someone I greatly admired for the last four years… My bet is that it is simply more chicanery from the Knickerwaalah side.
Speaking of primary sources, I have very serious allegations to make.
1. “Achyuta Raya Abhyudayam” by Rajanatha Dindima III was about his patron Achyuta Raya (1529-1542). I have serious doubts on Hujur’s tall claim that this work also sheds light on the course of the Battle of Talikota which happened 23 years after the death of Achyuta Raya. Pleej illuminate moi.
2.”Rayavachakamu” is on the rule, polity and campaigns of Krishna Deva Raya (1509-1529), written by a Nayak of his. I wonder how this made the basis of Hujur’s gyaan on the Battle of Talikota/time of Rama Raya (as the posts indicate) which happened 36 years after the death of the magnificent Emperor. Please give details like translation edition, chapter etc.
3. Ditto for “Krishnaraya Vijayam”. I am 400% sure (as Pervez Mian says) that the devotional poet Dhurjati died long before the Battle of Talikota. That is, when Rama Raya had not even reached the limelight. I know this ‘coz I was given an illuminating lecture on this person when I made a pilgrimage to Kalahasti sometime ago.
4. Ramarajiyamu is a genealogy of the Aravidus and it was written BEFORE Talikota…. it was written when RamaRaya was the greatest power in the Deccan. 400% sure again!
5. Let me assure you that Nilakanta Shastri’s History of South India nor Sewell can be the source of Hujur’s “own posts”. I frankly don’t know about Aiyyankar and I don’t have Venkataramanayya’s works with me now. Hujur Mian, can you tell me where exactly in these books, especially Venkatramanyya’s, did you find the source of “your own posts”?
It is therefore my analysis that this Hujur has googled up some sources randomly, copy-pasted the same sources mentioned in the very India-Forum page and something from Vedams books catalog, perhaps.
BTW, I wonder how some those sources were quoted for Talikota/Rama Raya by HH when there ain’t no discernable link…. as far as my considerable knowledge (in all humility) goes. 🙂 Never could ask him ‘coz I left I-F soon after; there a very distasteful thread on the Mahatma, you see.
Dipanwita,
During my 2 week long trip last month in the villages of India, particularly W.Bengal, there were two critical causes I focused my time, energy and efforts on:
1) Ekal Vidyalaya – A People’s Movement:
Since my childhood, seeing that my grandparents still live in our native village, it has been my passion to support and participate in a village-level grass-roots movement that would:
a) empower children, especially the girl child, with education and self-confidence (to enable them to reach their highest potential, both socially and spiritually)
b) provide women and infants with adequate First Aid, Hygiene, Sanitation, Maternal & Child Care (to prevent deaths from locally prevalent diseases and reduce infant mortality.)
c) practice viable, organic farming techniques and vermiculture i.e. composting with earthworms (to reduce the use of toxic fertilizers/pesticides and promote sustainable development among the masses)
I found all the answers in Ekal Vidyalaya, a people’s movement of Single Teacher Schools, geared towards providing literacy to the remote villages in nearly every state in India, and which practises Swami Vivekananda’s gospel – “If a poor child cannot go to school, then the school must go to the child”.
I spent many blissful days sharing simple meals and discussing S.M.A.R.T. goals with earnest villagers, learned to work compost pits, watched the masses take charge of their destinies, helped in a health camp and glimpsed unmistakable pride on the villagers’ faces when they talked of their Ekal school – because their children were the first ever in their families to go to school. I came back to the city knowing fully well that by deciding to join the Ekal movement, I had done myself a favour, not the villagers. I feel I did not help the villagers; instead it was the villagers who opened my eyes to the endless possibilities of giving back to Mother India. Such are the impressive honesty, sincerity of heart and steely determination that still drive the tough lives of the rural populace of India.
Truly, if there is a God or Goddess, I could see Him/Her in the faces of the people that touched my hearts during my Ekal trip.
If you are curious to know more, do visit: http://www.ekalindia.org
To find out the location of the villages in which 23,000 schools are currently running in, click directly ON the India Map (on the right hand side of the main page) and click any State and then any District to get to the village level.
Don’t forget to the check out the Photo Gallery and the Video Gallery.
I have emailed the Ekal webmasters some of the best photographs and videos I took (while I was visiting the Ekal Schools, Arogya Kendras and Farming Cooperative Societies), hoping it will be added to the website.
If you or any other reader would like to use your Christmas holiday or New Year’s Day or any weekend to visit a nearby Ekal school in any state in India to take a glimpse into their activities (as I did), just click on the link below and contact the person listed there for the State or Anchal (District) of your choice.
http://ekalindia.org/ekaladmin/ekal/contactinfo/showstatecontact.php?PHPSESSID=5c4bf9dd4a7e9c1fbd4015755467eb9b
Continued…
Continued….
2) Rehabilitation of Samrat Mondol:
I accompanied a group of Hindu activists and successfully rehabilitated a 14-year old boy (Samrat Mondal) and his family back in his native village.
To view pictures and know more about the sad plight of this 14-year old who was set on fire by an Islamic mob, please visit: http://www.hindujagruti.org/news/article/muslims/attacks/terror-unbound-14-years-old-hindu-child-burnt-alive.html
To glimpse the enormity of what happened to 14-year old Samrat Mondal, see this Youtube video: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=bUz72IAD8J0
There are tens of thousands of impoverished Hindu families in West Bengal, like the Mondols, that are truly Sarbohara (those who have lost everything), not once, but twice – once to the Islamic thugs in Bangladesh and again to the Islamic thugs in West Bengal.
An ongoing religious cleansing of Hindus still continues in several parts of India where Muslims are just 40-50% of the population. In a massive Islamic land-grab, rural Hindu communities are being butchered in massacres to create fear and force them out their homes and driven out of the districts of Rajouri (in the North), from the coastal areas of Kerala (in the South) and in the East – viz. 7 key districts of Murshidabad, Nadia, South 24 Parganas and huge pockets of Medinipur, North and South Dinajpur and Malda (all in W.Bengal).
It is our modest goal to resettle two Hindu families for every Hindu family hounded out of any village in West Bengal.
If you have any questions, do let me know.
-Hujur
@ Suzi
You wait to become powerless…then when u r powerless, you say that we would be as bad (as those who made you powerless),
if we were powerful..
What a way to live in denial… for 1/5th of humanity.
Wanderer,
Since you seem to have considerable knowledge (by your own “humble” admission), I have a quick piece of advice for you.
1) Instead of throwing out “400% guesses”, just give me scholarly references that refute the points I have made.
If you don’t have any references to refute my points, please have the cojones to admit you have no references and bow out gracefully.
But then your ego will not let you take the graceful way out, eh?
2) Right now, I have the books that I mentioned as references and you don’t. Since you don’t possess any of the references I’ve mentioned, how are you going to verify if the page-numbers I mention are correct? Do you want me to scan and email you the pages?
So, don’t expect me to indulge an uber-intelligent chap like you by spoon-feeding you the page numbers.
Do us all a favour… Stop your scatter-brained, incoherent babbling and look up the books I have mentioned.
Hujur
@Hujur:
No no, it’s not ALL copy & paste. You did take the trouble of breaking up the copied text into paragraphs for us, the unwashed masses.
Hey, I’m ready to give credit where it’s due!
look how these dumbass half-educated communists have started their campaign against ISKCON:
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1071208/asp/bengal/story_8644383.asp
Hujur to Wanderer:
“Stop your scatter-brained, incoherent babbling and look up the books I have mentioned.”
well said. perfect description. no substance only hype. “considerable knowledge” of bullshit.But then hujur, why do you have to respond to each and every of his scatterbrained bs?
@naiverealist-
Thanks for the Telegraph link. Nowadays the words evil, sinister, vile, malevolent etc. are liberally thrown around. But to each person, there is a nadir, a rock bottom of horror and inhumanity. In my case and many other boys of my age group who grew up in Bengal, we have witnessed it in the form of the machinations of the party called the CPIM. It is what we will be shown in Room 101 if we are ever taken there. Nothing, absolutely nothing can perturb us more than the activities of this poisonous, pernicious, development-regressive, repulsive, fiendish and nefarious party.
I have said it many times and I will say it again: this party was never, is not and will never be a secular party. It is an Islamic party. In a way, the CPIM can be compared to SIMI. You can indulge in Islamic terrorism in 2 ways- either by direct involvement or by indirect abetting. In the second case, this can be done by deliberate terrorist infiltration, deliberate harassment and impinging upon the rights of non-believers of Islam, deliberate nonchalance to the proliferation of radical Islam in rural Bengal, deliberate acts of stymieing any organization which is not Islamic.
From the article, “The latest document, distributed among senior leaders of the district during the November 30-December 2 conference, says Iskcon has become an “agent of the Congress, Trinamul Congress and the BJP”.“It has established itself as a major force against communists here.” ”
Do you need any further proof of the fact that the CPM is a radical Islamic party? Can you actually read between the lines here?
“We are agents of Islam and therefore any organization which is not Islamic in nature is not our cup of tea. In this respect we can be as harsh as the Taliban, but the fact that we belong to the Republic of India is an impediment for us to act according to our heart’s deep desire for the Talibanization of Bengal. We want to keep people poor, sans capital or the means to acquire it. Knowledge, technology etc. are dangerous. The more enlightened a person becomes, the more he will see the dark side of our party. We do not want that to happen. The reason we so vehemently oppose any right wing Hindu party in our state is that even though they are regressive in some aspects, they allow people to grow mentally. In that respect, radical Islam being regressive in all aspects is a much safer option. It can pose a threat to national security, but we could not care less about that. We want the security of the asses of the leaders like Biman, Sitaram, Prakash, Jyoti etc. who have sucked Bengal like leeches for the past 3 decades. It therefore stands to reason that a madrasa or a mosque or atrocities in the name of Islam are wonderful things, but not anything non-Islamic. The incessant transmission of the Muslim prayers in high volume is therefore music to our ears but not any other kind of religious noise. The people behind Iskon are not terrorists. So why should we support them? Also being under national spotlight after the Tasleema episode made us act against our Muslim brothers due to compulsion. It is time we showed them that we still stand for them and the book of Koran. Today it is Iskon, tomorrow it will be the license to rape and kill some Hindus in parts of rural Bengal. We owe it to our brothers.”
So don’t be surprised by such pieces of news in the future. But do you see the horror? Can you understand how dangerous it is for Hindus in rural West Bengal. So when Rishi Khujur says that his concern is primarily about the Hindus of rural Bengal and Bangladesh, you may think that his views are a tad apocalyptic. But it is pieces of news like this which lend credence to his views and concerns.
Re Hujur
As I expected. Handwaving, bile and Fire n Brimstone. “I have the sources, but you don’t”! 😀 What makes you think I DO NOT have hard copies of any of the sources….. do you think I would make those challenges unless I knew what I was talking about? Or are you now claiming that Aiyyankar’s books are the single source of the gory details? Then I do need to check it, which I WILL in a day or two….. I haven’t read his books yet. Nice trick using the “spoonfeed you” funda when I made it clear that I too have the sources (or at least knew them well enough) you pulled out to support your twists. YOU made the tall claims so why don’t YOU explain how in the world a book on Achyuta Raya has great details (as you claimed) on the Battle of Talikota. I repeat my challenge, how does the primary (and secondary) sources you quoted lead to “your own posts” on Talikota. Venkataramanappa is perhaps the one author who had devoted a lot of ink to Talikota and the aftermath, but even he doesn’t speak of 140000 Cavalry betraying Vijayanagar. There is a suggestion that two legions switched sides but that would make 5000-8000 horsemen at max.
And BTW, are you STILL claiming those two posts were “original”? 🙂
The priceless nugget by Hujur Mian was this one : “Instead of throwing out “400% guesses”, just give me scholarly references that refute the points I have made.”
Why does this remind me of Russell’s Teapot? 😀
I have read a number of books, from both sides of the spectrum, from Ceasar Fredrick to Venkataramanappa to good ol’ Shastri; Vijayanagar was a favorite topic of mine! There was a time when I perceived it as a Hindu Reconquista you see. And there was a professional reason too for my deep foray into history FWIW.
And what “points” did you make by your cut and paste job, Hujur Mian? Those “posts of yours” were a dirge on the fall of Vijayanagar with the assorted medieval skulduggery, rapine and bloodshed, nobody is denying THAT. What’s fallacious is the usual portrayal of Vijayanagar-Bahmani scramble for the Raichur Doab as a “Jihad” or a “Dharmayuddha”…. all the time when there was high cynicism and absolute chut1yagiri from both “sides” (and even the “sides” were quite fluid free-for-alls with Aaya Ram-Gaya Ram). All I wanted to do was show how your “own posts” were somebody else’s and how the communal color ret-conned into history is balderdash.
And FYI, dear readers and the great “Hujur”, the Ramarajiyamu is available on the net, fully scanned. 😀
There is a project called the Digital Library of India…. google it up and search out the translated Ramarajiyamu (I was given this link a few months ago when I was still in BRF). One needn’t read far to see when it was written and what it has to do with Hujur’s “own posts”.
Cheers.
BTW,
the commies are on shaky ideological footing and almost swept away by the liberalization currents and growth in many sectors. The loss of Meccas in Europa and loss of China as a beacon of all their kooky ideas has done considerable damage to the commies. Most worrying is the development of a bourgeois Wing who ain’t very beholden to the Party Apparatus.
An organization like the Communist Party (and their free-loader pals like the pitiful CPI, AIFB & RSP) that thrives on conflict and discontent, which gives birth to anarchy, has found in the Islamists the perfect “sea” for their “fishes to swim in” (as Mao put it in his little red book).
It is purely a power-play (with hiccups like Nandigram) and I don’t think even the Commies feel that the marriage can last FOREVER. Like, these guys have been at their throats for a very long time (from General Ma and the Persian Monarchy and Enver Pasha in the 20s) to Afghanistan/Tudeh Party under the Iranian Revolution right till the rise of America Bahadur. Funny how the Commies have allied themselves with the same section of Muslim leadership who would cut their “Godless” throats the very first chance they get.
@ commies and islamists:
another example of the marriage of the two most deluded ideologies on the planet, zulfikar ali bhutto’s islamic socialism. China and Pakistan have always been best buds.
@ yourfan2
i do not want to be biased. for Bengal prospered greatly under Murshid Kuli Khan. But the communists have taken Bengal to the ditch. I wonder how institutions such as Ramakrishna Mission have survived in this land.
The best medicine is not hatred but reading more about what Sri Chaitanya had said. the parties who mean well for Bengal should get involved in constructive work.
@ naiverealist WTF, Wanderer and Yourfan 2
In all the bad news, the good news is..
There are people inside the CPM (along vertical lines) that has realized that the Communists are becoming a pawn in the hands of pan-Islamism. But they really cant be vocal because that would mean 2 things
1. Ideologically ditch the reds and join the saffons.
2. Lose all the benefits of being a red in Bengal and wait forever for the saffrons to come to power which will never happen because of Bengal demographics and the fact that Trinamool is pro islamist too.
Slowly the realization will come in a more effective way, but my fear is, as always it would be too late. Again.
while googling found this site:
http://arunshourie.voiceofdharma.com/index.htm
http://www.amps-net.org/30th_april.htm
17 MONKS were KILLED in BROAD DAYLIGHT in kolkata under JYOTI BASU in 1982.
and nuns were also among those 17.
From “Amar naam, tomar naam—-Vietnam” to the chilling Dhaka Jihadi slogans shouted during the recent Kolkata riots: “Amra sobai hobe Taliban, Bangla hobe Afghan” (We will all be Taliban, Bengal will be Afghanistan).
We escapist Bengalis seem to delight in living in denial or look to alien ideologies to fit Indian needs. Hence the resentment, widespread mayhem and the self-inflicted violence against our people.
When will we learn our lessons from history?
[i]IN GUJRAT , GOONDAS ARE ARRESTED AND PUNISHED BY COURT [/i]
Which Gujarat, which gunda’s and which court are you talking about? 2002 riot victims in gujarat are still crying for justice while the CM Modi is out on fray winning kudos for ‘Development’ work done from the likes of Ambanis and mittals!! Please cut short the crap.
As goes Nandigram, the local CPM leaders, the TMC, the Police and the Maoists are equally to blame.
Finally the TMC bluff on ‘jami-rakhsha’ is out in the open after what those hooligans did in Singur.
Personally, if I am driven out for 11 long months from my own home just because of being supporters of a particular party (Read the CPI(M)), it is absolutely hypocritical to ‘condemn’ retaliation at the end of those long months-particularly when no one raised an eyebrow when village after village under CPM influence was ‘cleansed’ of CPM supporters by Mamata-Maoist combine prior to the March 14 incident!
Lastly, As for the intellectuals, I think the days are here that we stop self-congratulating ourselves on the ‘generally high intellectual standards’ of the Bengali intellectual! Why? Take this- a comment by shaoli mitra against the singur project ” The land in singur was ’13 fashali’, ..granary of bengal(!!) and therefore should not be acquired”..well..not much more can be there to say!