The Indian Mujra-hideen sends a terror email from an insecure wireless network, an act the press respectfully informs us ” as hacking into a wireless account”. Bombs go off. People die. Which city was it today?
Jaipur, Varanasi, Bangalore, Surat, Delhi, Mumbai or somewhere else ?
Does it matter to you or me as long as our loved ones are safe (for the time being)?
Does the significance of the fact that terrorists need only a few months to organize another high-profile attack, even after a few of them get arrested, sink into the national psyche?
Does the observation that there are supposedly mainstream politicians like Mulayam Singh Yadav and Laloo Prasad Yadav who support SIMI make us change our voting habits?
Do we, as a nation, understand that the whole “spirit of the city” feel-good is nothing but an euphemism for people becoming so inured to flying ball-bearings and bloody corpses that they accept terrorist violence as a fact of life, like traffic jams and power cuts ?
Do people realize that when Shivraj Patil warns of “stringent punishment” to the perpetrators of the blast that he isn’t just re-reading the statement he prepared a few months ago for the last blast? Do the citizens know that once he has done with his “I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who would attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee” message of future retribution , that he vanishes into a dark corner, away from the national eye, where he puts on a Batman costume and personally hunts down the terrified evil doe-rs while riding his Bat bicycle?
Do I realize that after every bomb blast, I write more or less the same type of post because I, like the nation, have nothing new to say or do?
I think not.
[Needless to say, keep everything civil. No “so-and-so is evil” type comments please. Else snip-snip. Thank you.]
The Greatbong Blog & Podcast 
Well…we know the reasons very well.
Bell the cat now…or our future generations will be….
True. Everyone I know is fine. Aaj marna hai ya kal marenge. Maarna to sabhi ko hai. Mainoo ki te main ki karaan. I have no expectations from the government…there is no poitician I would vote for, and I don’t have the resources to get elected. I have just accepted the fact that I could easily get blown up and forgotten like the countless victims of terrorism in India.
@ reshma
wanna do something?
This is so depressing. What a way to start the Saturday morning. I hate to say this, but I think we need some China like approach to this problem now.
Next city, anyone? See you next month, IF I am alive.
More from Shivraj Patil’s best friends in this mail sent by IM-
http://www.hindu.com/2008/09/14/stories/2008091458990800.htm
feel immense hatred. That disgusted feeling of helplessness when someone humiliates you, and you can´t retaliate. I don´t know wether its because it happens so often now, or thats its happened in my city…But I wish something could be done about these beastly idiots, who create mayhem because of their sick interpretation of their religion. I wish the perpretators are caught, and punished in such a fashion that it makes others think twice before planning another attack.
But of course, I know this would never happen. It might be more fruitful to pray to god for justice, than to expect our impotent govt. do the needful..
seeds of this problem were sown 61 yrs ago.
“aaj toh sirf arthi lagee hai” (courtesy:Deewar’75)
once again all one can say after these blasts is check out a website called bengalgenocide.com
Edited by GB
ok now the PC version of what GB has edited out…basically oppose tooth and nail any pseudo secular paerson you meet …make them feel your hostility on a personal level…
and vote for a right wing party like BJP etc..they are your only hope
is that PC enough GB ???
Yes, very true… as long as we and our loved ones are safe we treat it as just another irritant. And yes, this time I am more agitated because it’s my city that is hit. It is those spots that I used hang out when I am home and do so even now that are targetted. When it strikes close to home you sit up with a jolt.
Yet, pointing fingers and demonising a community is not going solve this problem. One needs a leader with a vision and understanding to address the issue. But till we have vote-bank politics nothing is going to happen. One section will continue to demonise and another section will continue to turn a blind eye. Solutions come with middle paths, not with extreme positions.
is it just me, or Sonia Gandhi and Sheila Dixit look particularly pleased and happy right now
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshowpics/3480893.cms
Can we first empower the police?
We start with an underpaid, understaffed, corrupt and toothless police force which is at the beck and call of the politicians in power.
We then pick out the best of the lot and assign them to the security of a million so called VIPs (the absolute monarchs of our democracy). Wonder who these politicians need protection from? The people, I guess.
The remaining cops are busy enforcing laws that they can do so without any risk – shutting down bars, arresting live bands, harassing couples, and (from Oct 2) enforcing smoking bans. After all, it is much easier and safer to bully common people out of their civil liberties rather than go after real criminals.
If, by some chance, the police still manage to catch a few thieves, murderers and terrorists, the case goes on for decades by which time little evidence remains.
And if by some miracle, someone is convicted and sentenced to death, the punishment is not carried out due to political compulsions.
So how exactly is terrorism going to stop?
Could we
a) put the police under the judiciary instead of the home ministry so that political influence is removed and the force is immune to pressure from the states.
b) remove SPG, and all other so-called VIP privileges for everyone except the President, PM, Governors & CMs.
c) Repeal all moral policing laws so that police can concentrate on violations that affect people other than the violator himself/herself rather than ‘vices’ that are harmless to others.
d) quickly dispose of judicial backlog and enforce sentences immediately by setting timelines for each stage of appeal.
We could then hope to have a country where the police actually perform their real duty – of protecting the right to life, property and liberty of the citizens.
By chance I canceled a trip to CP yesterday. Otherwise could have been me. After hearing the news friends and I decided just to stay indoors. Probably for the first time we realized in a very concrete manner that someone just took our freedom away.
Almost felt like hitting Shivraj Patil. Sure…people will fight back and get on with their life and jobs (what options are there anyways for a common man?)…but what about the government? Will it ever do anything?
@kaunteya: yeah saw those pictures…I also felt the same…
When I called my sister today in Delhi, I was taken aback by the normal chit chat we had and how easy she was taking it. ‘Haan karol bagh aur CP mein hue the blast’ was all she said. The disinterest she showed was scary and the true reflection of the psyche of people living in Indian metros.
Has anybody seen goats (bakras), waiting for their turn to get their heads chopped off during Eid.
Hindus in India are like that.
@Arnab,
“Where he puts on a Batman costume and personally hunts down the terrified evil doe-rs while riding his Bat bicycle?”
Your humorous reference to the Batman is a grim reminder of the fact that we are, in reality, dealing with the Joker himself; ideologically driven, a near genius for creating terror but insane, quite insane at the core and considered a hero in some parts of the world. Do we stop giving these guys their phone call, step up surveillance to stratospheric levels & legitimize torture under some circumstances?
A few thoughts on torture and the current judicial system; consider the following stylized scenarios!
Scenario-1
My ‘Dark Knight’ DVD is stolen, police round up three suspects and call me for identification. We zero on to two guys; is it worth torturing them to get to the truth? Well, there is a 50% chance that the innocent guy is tortured, and the upside is … well I get my DVD back. Most people (including me) would say that torture is not justified.
Scenario-2
Police have rounded up five terror suspects and at least one of them is suspected to have knowledge about future terror attacks. Is torture justified? Well, it’s almost certain that 80% of the suspects are innocent, but what if the info we are looking can save at least 20 lives? Is torture justified? At the very least, a debate is needed.
The current judicial system works in a world where the only criminals are individuals with bad childhoods & drunken fathers; the system certainly needs a tweak give the ‘better’ class of criminals that operate now.
Final thoughts on the lack of political will in India to fight the Islamic fundamentalism. When we contrast US with India, technology and infrastructure tell only part of the story. The real difference, as we suspect, is the political will, which I want to argue is a behavior that one can predict with almost mathematical exactitude given the following statistic. In US, Muslims form only 0.5% of the population whereas in India, the proportion is nearly 14%.
For the politician, whose avg. shelf life is less than 5 years, it’s not worth offending 14% of the electoral base. Instead, a combination of a reactive approach, which includes, making perfunctory condemnations and a pacifist approach that ensures that the 14% keeps voting for you- is perfectly rational approach to adopt. Here by ‘rational’ I don’t necessarily mean ‘good’.
Is there a way we can change the incentive structure? Can you we make ‘national security’ independent? But then we run the risk of an army coup!
[edited out by GB]
Does anyone else find it funny that these morons call themselves the “Indian” Whatever-sh*t-they’re=claiming-to-be ? What are they trying to be – patriotic ?
As for the normal guy – in the face of helplessness, “lets just carry on” is a normal reaction. Alternatives ? Those who believe this party or that will actually *solve* this finally are – well – really really optimistic. It goes deeper than that. Those who portray one community – either ways – as the victim – are playing right into the IM’s hands – you wanna support these ideologies by playing the same game with your opposing dogmas ?
Yes eacch community owes it to rein in and go hammer and tongs at its lunatic (and may I say gutless, faceless) fringes. whether in Kashmir, or Orissa, or Chhatisgarh, or all across with the SIMI and their ilk.
Guys like Mulayam Singh will then shut up. This problem will not go away completely – cause its impossible to control madmen – and it gets worse for those who’re brainwashed – but self policing within each section of society will help control it somewhat, at least.
That cannot happen if entire communities are held responsible – then there’s hardly any chance of them fighting their internal battles. Its smarter for the saner parts of all communities, sections, ethnicities to band together as Indians and take the rest on. The wrong lines seem to be getting drawn, and that exactly what SIMI and their kinds would love to see happen.
Getting on with life is kinda fine. But this should evoke some level of disgust, and build consensus within our subgroups, families, workplaces – for the disgust, as well as a constructive, useful reaction to it. Going down the same path ourselves is probably not the right one.
@Altaf
mind ur language..i am sorry for your sister.
who started the problem…and what the “real source” of this problem. Maybe you guys need some introspection. I have worked with many M’s and i am sure “young and educated Ms” can only solve problem…coz at least you can think logically .
@ Sameer
The day you will understand, that the reason they call themselves “Indian ” Mujahideen , is not because they are patriotic, but because they want to see “india” as a Islamic country, THAT DAY, will be a great day for counter-terrorism action in India.
Until that day, I can only hope that the next Isla-mic bomb hits pseudo-seculars like you.
[edited]
Arnab- Just curious… when do you normally invoke the comment policy to shut out morons like this.
GB adds: Ravi, since these comments are posted at night when I am asleep its not possible for me to moderate them instanteneously.
@ Ivaturi
Ahh!
Looks like I awoke the Kshatriya in u.
Carry on.
We’re fast becoming a hardened bunch, in so many ways…We keep on with our lives despite the blasts, which is good resolve. But then again, this same resolve is part compulsion and like greatbong says, part relief that it wasn’t us or our loved ones.
“A Wednesday” released not more than 2 weeks ago. I enjoyed the film, but struggled with it ideologically, just a bit. Not today though. The inaction is suffocating.
I’d like to see “I will strike down with great vengeance…” actually put into play. Call me a conspiracy theorist, but I know our law-keepers can do more, but aren’t.
Indra wrote:
….“A Wednesday” released not more than 2 weeks ago. I enjoyed the film, but struggled with it ideologically, just a bit. Not today though. The inaction is suffocating”.
Rishi’s response:
About 7-8 years back, I was fresh out of school and had started working on a new project related to one of our neighboring countries. I used to be less cynical and very optimistic about making a “difference” and helping save lives.
Around that time, a very important and powerful person from India was visiting, and I got a chance to meet him and talk to him. I went there, prepared with a lot of material and talking points, hoping to make him “see the ground realities”.
The meeting went well and I drove home a very happy and satisfied guy, thinking that I actually was doing something to change things…and maybe history.
Among those who provided me the research material, was a 80 year old man. He was a victim of Jinnah’s partition, had left his native place and moved to US directly as a refugee.
Excited, I called him up, and babbled for an hour, explaining my meeting with this Indian “bigwig” in detail. I told him how interested this Indian politician looked and how hopeful I was, that that he would do something to change the ground realities. This old man listened to me patiently for the entire hour.
The he said the following sentence,
“— Sahab…wahi hoga, jo aap karoge, baki koi kuch nehi karega”. (only that will happen, that you do, nothing else will happen).
That changed my life forever.
Aint it a Deja Vu? Now all politicians shower condolences. Blogs would deluge. Promises to catch the perpetrators would be done. soon we will forget everything and start watching SOAP operas n reality shows. Whats the point in writing blogs and ppl like us commenting here? Is anything going to happen? can we do something?? Its better we discuss some solution.
@random Thanks for the name calling. I identify myself with no tags, but was purely trying to think logically. The moment I present an argument you do not agree with, you descend into name-calling pits. Your loss, not mine, sir.
Also “what are they, patriotic?” is reasonably clearly sarcastic, and I have zero belief in the IMs patriotism. I’m sorry you could not read that right. I apologize for your misunderstanding.
There are two ways of getting into an argument or a debate. One – where you ensure it becomes a battle of egos and identities and the other side then digs in, takes hard stances, and ensures no meeting point is ever reached. The other is what I was trying to emphasize.
From your hardline stance, it would appear that no Muslims are interested in ridding their own society of the scourge that, I’m sure, affects them too. For instance, do you not take umbrage and feel pain when you’re bucketed with the “lumpen, boorish Indian traveller” or suchlike ? Do you think that taking such a stance leaves any doors open for them to try and improve things internally, challenge the hardliners within, etc? Should I similarly “brand” all of my fellow citizens hardline, bloodthirsty parochial fanatics because of how you think, and how some idiots in Oriisa behave, or how utterly ruthless and cold-blooded the Naxalites are ?
Or do you *want* to believe in blacks and whites and belong to this camp or the other ?
Me, I do not like tags. I equally believe 370 should be scrapped, and India, being one country, should have ONE set of laws for all of us – civil, criminal, or otherwise. Not because I’m “right wing” or pro this party or that, but because that logically appeals to my sense of fair play and justice. But then “with us or against us” mentality would hardly be able to accommodate such points of view – and whatever you’re uncomfortable with, you brand. Oh well.
Sorry, I just ended up doing some branding myself, but I hope you allow me this self defense, that totally took us away from the debate.
I’m hardly likely to change into a parochial, fire breathing anti-this-or-that overnight, in any case.
@Ivaturi – I admire your composure in the face of needless, tasteless jibes. Altaf, or whoever you are – if you have nothing valuable to add, keep a tight lid, please. We all have our grouses, but not lashing out at random people because of those is the basis of civilized behaviour, which you’re totally not exhibiting here.
@random – also wanted to add that I’m a little disturbed you wished the next blast targets me, and other “pseudo secularists”. Isn’t violent disagreement with the “other” the basis of extremism ? Are you one ?
Although my post is not directly related to terrorism, I would like to agree with the author of the article below. And that is why the feeling ‘Does it matter to you or me as long as our loved ones are safe (for the time being)?’ comes.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1080912/jsp/opinion/story_9822829.jsp
True. Would you believe that I actually cried after the blast happened? All my people are safe, thank god, but is that it? I stay in Gurgaon and I saw panicky people trying to call their frnds/relatives while the networks were jammed for almost 2 hours. GK M Block market was almost in front of my eyes and I could see the blasts happening at Prince Pan Corner. Am I a genius to figure out that this is exactly the way they planned the last bomb blasts in Delhi and Jaipur – crowded public markets? Whatever happened to security-driven and alert Delhi Police? Some hawaldaar shutting up with a 500 rupee note, maybe. I was so agitated that i blogged about it last night. Maybe that’s the only thing I am capable of doing. This is democracy for you.
I feel like saying in here the famous quote
“The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don’t do anything about it.” — Albert Einstein
Frankly speaking, we needed a “zero-tolerance” attitude towards criminals and terrorists from our Police Force and Intelligence Bureau long back ..But just because of the wide-spread “corruptions”(not really a “cliched” word) and “filthy vote-bank politics” we keep on tolerating the nuisance,nonsense,menace & terror till something fatal happens to us and we, also like others, have got nothing to do about it..
I think the police force is neither really educated enough nor intelligent enough to even understand the trends of new age terrorism forget about doing something about it ..and the local people like wise also don’t even report about suspicious criminal/terrorist activities apathetically…
I think we need to at least motivate people from being apathetic and the police and intelligence force to be much more educated about the the real crimes and terrorism rather than becoming busy with harassing innocent citizens ..
They should have been more strict on implementation POCA,POTA,TADA laws also , especially to prevent terrorism
One interesting news-article regarding terrorism is
http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20080912/981/tsc-how-a-terrorist-embarks-on-the-pathw.html
Also, does India know where the sophistication of the new age terrorism has gone into?I guess they are not even aware of the existence of sophisticated crimes/terrorism ..
A little bit about one “spine-chilling” kind of terrorism called “psycho-terrorism” that needs immediate grave attention is in ..
http://www.mindcontrolvictimsunity.in/..
It’s high time the authorities do something about it ..
Thanks,
-Dev
http://pathikdeb.blogspot.com
@Rishi_Khujur:
Would love to, but too pessimistic. Completely agree about Hindus being bakras.
@Reshma
What we see today is the result of what our parents generation didnt do.
Because of that, we have placed ourselves in a disadvantageous position in the battle of attrition against Islam. (unfortunately, Hindus never chose to fight it, the other side always did and continues to do)
What we do today, may well change the future… right?
“Lamhon ki chukh,sadiyon ko bhugatni padi” – or something along those lines…
Any idea who said this ?
We get the leaders we deserve. We keep voting them into power. Or else become very pro-one religion.
Meanwhile the rest (at leasts Western part) of the country continues its celebrations with pomp, dance and loads of cheer. No black bands for us, we are Indians – the next superpower, an economy worth reckoning. We celebrate the good and overlook the small hiccups which kill a few ppl here and there.
BTW – you err. To say ‘I will strike down… vengeance upon thee’, you need to face the perpetrators and thereafter shoot them. Mr Patil I’m sure, does not even have nightmares about facing the terrorists, much less shoot them. Lip service is all he can give. Ah well, I guess thats more than what the rest of the country’s citizens provide. I know what the conversation in office tomorrow will be like – “Heard about the Delhi blasts? Crazy! Hows the stock market?” Finis.
On another note, I shudder to think who the real brains are. Will India as we know it exist 50yrs from now? OK, what about a 100?
really enlightening discussions take place here,,,with some of most rational, intelligent, psuede, secular etc etc mind being involved..just that these mind dnt use the biggest power of a common man in democracy, hardly any of them vote…someone has marched towards the greener pastures (US,UK etc)…rest dnt have voting card, few wont like to waste a holiday to stand in a queue to vote, few boasts of their realization tht every party is vote so they dnt wanna contribute….bt truth is…a lot of our problems cud b traced back to non-voting public like us…..
@rambono 5…no we cannot do tht…we have better things to shell out money..60k cr of loan waiver or 18k cr to madarsas….security of common men can goto hell…after all we have 110 cr of common men.
Well back to square one, aren’t we? Same scenario, same arguments and same results. Even the word ‘deja vu‘ sounds similar… Right now when I’m typing this comment “We The People” is going on NDTV, with Arun Jaitly and Abhishek Singhvi in guest’s chairs. I was curious to see the blame-game and what argument they place. And just as expected BJP has found their argument in anti-terror laws like POTA/TADA which Cong opposes and Cong is harping about a Federal Anti-Terror agency which is not possible because of opposition from BJP-ruled govts (according to Singvi). Sounds similar?
First of all I don’t agree with the point that BJP in centre will solve all problems (there were attacks when they were in power and result was pretty much same). I don’t have much knowledge with Indian penal code and exactly how much power is given to the law will make it fascist. I think the line is blurred as always. But don’t we know all anti-crime laws can be misused this way or that way. Aren’t we aware that law-enforcing agencies can and sometimes do misuse their powers, be it Army (not an law enforcing agency technically) or Police. Does that mean we won’t have those agencies/forces or we won’t have stringent laws. In an ideal world we don’t need an Army, but we know the world we live in is not ideal. I think we need a complete overhaul with the security agencies beginning with an Central Anti-Terror agency. From Kargil to Parliament attack to these blasts we can see our intelligence capability is non-existent or ineffective at best. The time has come where the need of a strong body with strong laws outweighs the danger of potential misuse. It’s just not worth to sit back and argue about pros and cons. How much blood can we shed? Till when? The terrorist networks have gone much deeper than we would like to believe. We need some action for God’s sake…
Having said so much, I’m pretty much sure we will not see any action. None. Blame-game? yes. Endless debate? yes. One more blast in Hyd/Kol/Pune/Lucknow? very much possible. Another post from GB where I can copy-paste this comments… Did anyone say ‘deja vu‘?
I totally agree to this fact that the ‘spirit of the city’ is nothing but a way to tell that, we can’t do anything, we’ll not do anything, and we don’t care !
Interestingly, I used to feel proud of the very ‘spirit’ some time back. Sad but true 😦
I don’t know when we as a nation would wake up… This seems like a never ending story which has gone from bad to worse. The press doesn’t care about the security gaps / “capabilities” of the government but seems more interested in body counts and “Spirit”.
The question really is if there are any neighboring powers (Hint: Northern) who benefits from all this. Hmmm… I think this rabbit hole goes deeper than what many think.
I can’t understand what the fuss is all about. If you have any fear of terrorism, simply emigrate. It’s that simple.
There are a host of nations to select from, all with their terrorism timefuses far more deferred than our benighted nation. There’s :
– Australia (with blue waters and waiting Sheila’s), &
– New Zealand (snowy mountains, hobbit trail and all), &
– South Africa (Paarl and Stellenbosch wine trails), &
– USA (subtle racism but California’s sunny), &
– UK (if you don’t like the sun and prefer crap weather but like the pay), &
– Singapore (where nothing changes. Ever. You can do the whole city in 2 days, Haw Par Villa and all!! and then boredom), or
– UAE & Bahrain … could be a slight problem (mum’s the word).
With all these wonderful countries beckoning, why on earth’s name are you worried about terrorism affecting you?
What’s that I hear? You’re concerned your parents can’t join you. Well boo-hoo-hoo.
And the guy in the corner saying he can’t emigrate? Well you’re stuffed then. Plain and simple. I recommend you start pre-planning your funeral arrangments. Send the bill to Shivraj Patil.
Of course, we could vote in the BJP.
@ HHBB
I voted for the BJP. Then they came to power. Then I saw Jaswant Singh personally escort SOBs like Masood Azhar to Kandahar and let them go scot free when a bullet in the head should have sufficed. Then I thought that if in voting BJP, I was merely getting Congress-Lite, why not go for the ‘original’? and – yes, then I emigrated.
But there is hope – Jammu has shown the way.
These are all acts of desperation by primarily people whose minds are demented. Wish these people could put their mind to better use and become the Abhinav Bhindra’s or Vijender’s for our country.
BTW, Great Bong, your kind of demented is ok and acceptable. It brings a smile to our faces :-).
Both eyes for an eye… thw whole set for a tooth.
Are we really terrified yet? Or is it just a fake “Hum kisi se darte nahi” smokescreen? or are we too lazy to wake up to face the reality?
I mean all it took were two towers collapsing to wake up one country and tighten the strings. Yes their rulers(Bush and co.) came up with “We will find out who did this and we will pay them back” ala Shivraj Patil and co. Now i know one might say that attacking Afghanistan or Iraq wasn’t the solution, but hey, were they hit by any other act of terrorism after that?
The number of serial bomb attacks itself is on the verge of moving into double figures here. And yet we do nothing. Some of us blog, some comment, some blame, some just don’t care and yes some die. No point in pointing fingers at the politicians, they are a part of us aren’t they?
They say history repeats itself. And the fact that we are lazy shows in the fact that after the revolt of 1857 we attained independence 90 years later. I’m not trying to undermine the freedom fighters in any way. But the point is, we will not react till the water is up to our throats.
My guess is, the boys at IM need to blast out a few more so that we finally react and respond. I say few more ‘coz it did not happen after Delhi so maybe it’ll happen after the next blast.
Well, the news channel are flooded with the analysis of the deadly event which has happened. All the supposedly great minds come to a platform and discuss about what to do and what not to do…all crap.. they should ban all those channels now because mere discussing is not going to solve this issue.
Things will improve when we become mature enough to make strict and sturdy reforms regarding terrorism. Nothing will happen if we remain complacent with the present scenario and keep on continuing with it.
Either change the reforms or let those terrorists reform our nation to a point of No Return!!
strange thing happened when i saw the Delhi blasts news. i did not feel a thing. you mentioned “Does it matter to you or me as long as our loved ones are safe (for the time being)?” but the feeling i got that if i DID loose a family member or friend to a bomb blast i would treat it as a natural death and cry/move on as i did when my grandparents passed away.
this feeling was quickly replaced with “what trivial news”. do news channels flash breaking news when we have potholes after rains? then why this? it keeps happening.
guess i will be fearful and terrorized when we are nuked.
REST ALL “CHALTA HAI”
@Satya
Ditto
@GB
Kya yaar. Why doesn’t something get done by itself? Like the meltdown!! I don’t see anybody else doing anything about it at all…..
Sighhhh (helpless)
heyooooooo….
that was nice and cynic…and u r ryt GB noone does anything but keep repeating the same lines…
so what do we do? educate children against terrorism?
we have done it…implicate islam?that too we have done without any reason( what a few people do cannot have a bearing on one of the largest faiths in the world…and we hindus are no good as well if u remember incidents like babri masjid.
shall we take up the burden as those in Rang de Basanti did?
nor can we do that.another thing we can do is keep abusing these worthless administrators who sumtyms are intelligent enough not to do anything about terrorism,and sumtyms are not competent enough.that too we have done.so, i repeat, WHAT DO WE DO?
we keep blogging and posting comments and raise a voice which will never reach these people who r born with the burden of jehaad.
what can be done? does anyone has any solutions? one might be eradication of poverty(which i maintain is, impossible), and even if u do it detractors might cum up with another basis for jehaad.
I am not optimistic about the future.even with honest endeavours, where are we going?
Noe, Im absolutely undecided how to react to this news… cant decide whether its triivial or a matter of concern… i leave it to the GB readers to comment..
Source:
http://www.ibnlive.com/news/uniform-code-patil-needs-to-change-attitude-not-attire/73566-3.html
Uniform code: Patil needs to change attitude not attire
New Delhi: While the terror strikes in the national capital on Saturday September 13 have shocked the nation, the Home Minister Shivraj Patil finds himself in the eye of a storm.
Patil has so far failed to articulate what his ministry is doing to tackle this menace that has now touched nearly each of our metros.
That may be another reason why the fact that he took time to have a change of clothes more than a couple times, all while Delhi was burning, hasn’t gone down too well.
At five pm, while at the Congress Working Committee (CWC) meeting in Delhi had just ended, Home Minister Shivraj Patil was seen gracing the function sporting an impeccable cream-coloured bandhgala.
This was just an hour before the first blast rocked the national capital.
The man responsible for nation’s internal security almost three hours later was briefing the nation on these blasts and could be seen wearing a fresh bandhgala, this time a shade different than before.
When asked about the terror laws, all he could say was that this was not the place to discuss them.
“This is not the right forum, that should be discussed in a different forum,” Patil said.
Yet again, a couple of hours later, Patil was seen accompanying Congress president Sonia Gandhi as she visited the blasts victims.
Once again, his dress change was noticeable as he was wearing a spotless white suit.
While Patil’s wardrobe may be an array of bandhgalas and shirts to his tastes, what struck people is that his change of clothes at a crucial hour seemed in bad taste.
What added fuel to the fire is his refusal to take any strong steps to curb any further terror strikes while terrorists continue to strike with impunity.
Also Check out
http://in.truveo.com/Dressed-to-kill-Patils-dress-change-angers-people/id/1496654124
Sigh. I just wrote a similar post too.
Thats all we’re reduced to doing – writing blog posts about it. And I think we’re doing more work than the so-called “Intelligence Agencies”.
Sigh.
The question being raised over and over again is — what can we do?
I don’t know whether this makes sense, but I think we need to go to the heart of the matter.
We need to fight to re-establish the Rule of Law.
There is no justification for what terrorists do, but these people get recruits based on injustice.
Whether it is the terrorisation and killing of Kashmiri pundits, or horrible acts in Gujarat, or open massacre of Sikhs — people in India always seem to get away with it. This provides the fuel for the recruiters of terrorists. Because we never enforce the law, and we rarely punish the guilty. So then young people can be instigated to ‘hit back’ in unspeakable ways — because there is no justice.
I don’t think politicians will of their own volition do anything — because all of them have their vested interests. But we as citizens can push them. I know it sounds pathetic and far fetched, but isolated cases give hope. Sitting here in Delhi, I see the Jessica Lal and Priyadarshini Mattoo cases, the Uphaar Cinema Case, the BMW Hit and Run Case. The rich and the powerful, the politically connected were involved in all of them. But there was tremendous public pressure, through the media, through demonstrations, through the relentless efforts of the Uphaar parents, for example — and ultimately none of these people has gone scot free.
That’s progress, and a ray of hope. Sure it’s restricted to metros, and to cases where People Like Us are directly affected. But it’s a start. We cannot sit quietly and let people act beyond the law. Right now, so far, it’s been restricted to individual cases involving individual rich and influential people. We need to take it a step ahead and target the goons of political parties. It’s their actions that put us on an endless cycle of tit for tat — and those actions are illegal.
People who support SIMI are not indulging in politics, they are helping terrorists — that’s a crime.
People who burn alive a nun are not indulging in politics — that’s murder.
People who rape a woman as part of a political statement are not politicians — they’re rapists.
People who beat up a taxi driver on the streets of Mumbai are not patriots — they’re committing assault and battery.
These are crimes. There are laws against them. We need to stand up and force the authorities to bring such people to book, and make them stand trial.
Of course the perpretrators of these blasts are criminals, and of course they deserve nothing less than the death sentence. But my point is, they are a part of a much bigger malaise, where in we seem to have stopped recognising crimes for what they are, and we no longer demand the implementation of the Rule of Law. Our view of criminal acts is coloured by caste and creed and politics and who the victim is. Crime is crime, and it has to be punished. What could be simpler? The moment we start picking and choosing and justifying — we are no better than a jungle.
If people can stand up and be counted on individual cases, I’m sure they will do it for bigger crimes as well.
It will be slow, and maybe happen only in a few cases. But it’s possible. It’s not that such a thing will eradicate terrorism — but it’s bound to reduce the number of recruits, and that’s a start.
What would I do personally? Start mobilising opinion — friends, journalists, a lawyer or two. I’m not sure yet. But yes, this happened in Delhi, it affects me personally, and I have purely selfish reasons now to get off my ass and start doing something. There are a lot of people like me — perhaps they’ll push me. I don’t know. And yes, lest you think otherwise, our first demand would be — “Catch the bastards who did this. They’re murderers. We want them punished.”
Let’s see where it goes. Like I said, there have been cases recently where people have succeeded in getting some results — so there’s hope. And it’s a matter of principle that affects us all. Without the Rule of Law, we’re not a democracy, we are, as I said, a jungle — prey for whoever has the sharpest claws.
In the midst of this outpour of grief and emotion…which i think is understandable at this hour, the sad story seems to be that there is no way out.
Can someone tell me, how do you stop a person from leaving a few bags around in crowded places or taking some other means to carry out these actions which can simply be the outcome of a critical epidemic..and one which is assuming pandemic proportions at an alarming rate.
It is just not possible for the authorities or any other organisation to physically check each and every individual in a public place……simply impossible…full stop !!
@radicalbong,
Good comment. Mob crimes in India are never punished, its almost like if one can gather 50 people, one can get away with anything, murder, riot, rape, molestation we have seen it all.
Regrading the blasts one big reason police is unable to make much headway is lack of human intelligence inside muslim community, 40 odd bombs were planted in Ahmedabad-Surat by locals, what are the odds of someone not noticing anything fishy going on. I am not sure what can be done to fix this, but rediff message board style attitude is definitely not going to help.
@spark
Gandhi hoped the same too…the way u hope.
paid the price by losing 40% of India
Like I said rule of law needs to be established with a firm hand, people need to be told that whether they are Shiv Sena, SIMI, MNS , Jamat-e-Islami, Bajrang Dal or any freaking religious nut case organization, if they break the law they will be be punished. If one doesn’t believes in the Indian constitution and country’s law they bloody pack their bags and leave. Selectively applying law to suit political agendas gives birth to SIMIs and Bajrang Dals, which then again feed off each other and the cycle continues.
@spark: not making a moral equivalence between Bajranj Dal and SIMI would be a good start.
Well I think following the country’s law and constitution in both letter and spirit would be a better start. No?
*sarcasm* I am praying that I don’t get hit by such bomb blasts. As long as my family and I are safe, do I really care about others? *sarcasm*
Lets keep bitching and moaning for the next couple of days; and then forget all about it and turn to escapism … movies, cricket, bhelpuri anyone?
Let this be a lesson to everyone who thinks they can stick their heads into the ground, ostrich-like, and pretend that Jihad is not going to get them.
If you want to fight against the Jihadi menace, there’s no dearth of opportunity to do so. Just look around .. in your neighbourhood, in your city. Ask yourself – What is the core of the problem? What is the virus? What is the disease? What are the symptoms?
Surely, a nation of 1.1 billion intelligent people can get their act together against the Mujra-hideen? Or are we a nation of Hijra-hideen?
What a horrible weekend. Delhi blasts and now Lehman and Merrill Lynch …. friends calling from Delhi sounding scared and helpless ……friends sending their resumes in desperation……..this is the worst I have felt in a long time
I think I’d have to agree with RadicalBong here.
Respecting the rule of law is abysmal in our country.
For a number of reasons, even 60 years after we achieved a representative govt, street politics still pays. For whatever reason, our democratic institutions still can’t properly channel our political energies.
Laws aren’t framed to economically protect Maharashtra’s indigenous population. Hooligans on the street beat up people to do that.
Before law enforcements agencies can apprehend the guilty in the Godhra Carnage, mobs on the street decide who’s guilty and proceed to, well, kill them.
People like Lalu and Mulayam blithely defend convicted terrorist organisations, secure in the belief that matters as prosaic as national security won’t harm their electoral prospects.
Why do extra-constitutional political activities pay so well? I mean its one thing if Gandhi broke laws framed by the British. But do we need to break laws framed by our own “democratic” government too?
Who do we blame? The system which allows narrow parochial interests to dominate? Do we replace our constituency based system with a system which awards seats to parties proportional to their vote share forcing parties to think nationally? But won’t that be death knell for our regional parties? Do we want to go back to the 70’s with an Indira Gandhi dominating each and every aspect of political life?
Maybe a presidential system. Again, that’s a risky move in a country like India. We could have the executive at loggerheads with the legislature for 5 years. Imagine in Uttar Pradesh, Mayawati heading the executive and Mulayam with a majority in the Legislature.
Of course we could blame ourselves, but that really would be too much trouble now wouldn’t it?
@ Arnie : “I voted for the BJP. Then they came to power. Then I saw Jaswant Singh personally escort SOBs like Masood Azhar to Kandahar and let them go scot free when a bullet in the head should have sufficed”.
I felt exactly like you do with the BJP, Arnie. It was later that I realised they had no option, the murderors had 150 of our people and were killing them off, one by one.
I think Kandahar was an exception, and cannot be compared with the of the castrated Congress. Were the BJP effective overall? No. But are they as anti-Indian as the Congress? ‘Course not.
So there we have it. On the one side, a neutered sleeping party that will continue snoring and shying away from strong decisions while the nation rots. On the other side, a party actively promoting and accelerating the inevitable disaster.
Such is our paradox. Jai DemocraZy, jai Hind !!
Yes. It’s becoming unbearable.
BJP, Congress does not matter any more. Can *any* political party in India pull itself above vote bank politics? The democracy bestowed upon us is like gifting a string of expensive pearls to a monkey. As far as the comparison with the US go in matters of democracy let it be limited to the population each democracy commands. We lost part of Kashmir, Ladakh, Arunachal, what do we lose next? Are we on the verge of a civil war? If the government can’t protect us, should we take up arms ourselves? Not for us, but for our loved ones. It would be a more glorified death, I tell you, when you die fending bullets destined for your loved ones than getting blown apart to smithereens helplessly.
@kaunteya – why do you say that? The BD has been terrorizing people over 3 states now – and somehow – its even more targeted! The blasts are the handiwork of brainwashed, spineless morons who do not seem to be able to make the civilized distinction between redressal of their (real or perceived) grievances and the trampling of rights of those who’re not responsible to lead their lives as best as they can – but this organized terror is for personal or political gain, and often deadlier with longer term impact. I’m not batting for the one or the other, and in my view both are unpardonable criminal offences that have to be dealt with ruthlessly – but why do you make the distinction ? Terror in any form must be recognized for what it is, and stopped.
Home ministry need a change. Shivraj patil can be given any air hostess type job where dressing and grooming are important.
I wish to slap that stupid enunch patil till he turns blue. People getting blasted to bits and he is busy in selecting his wardrobe and white shoes for posing for TV cameras. Can someone plant a … under his sorry ass. Sonia and Shiela smiling for cameras. Disgusting.
Echoes my thoughts here…http://apublicdiary.blogspot.com/2008/09/whats-terrorism-without-terror.html
Time to say Enough! perhaps.
@HHBB
Thank you for your comments. I find your remarks to be extremely thought provoking and perceptive and enjoy reading whatever you have to say. Yes by the time the hijacking happened, it was too late for a ‘civilised’ India not to negotiate. The time to have put a bullet in Azhar’s head was way earlier – during the five years he was a guest in our jails. I fear that the dragging of the Afzal Guru issue might force us into a similar position once again.
Now, a second query. You might find it stupid but please do indulge my devil’s advocacy. Do you think that a confrontation with the radicalised Ms is necessary in India? On a purely strategic sense – what can a few bomb blasts by the ‘Indian Mujahadin’ achieve? They can only bomb, hide and run – so in effect a ‘hijron ki fauj’ which cannot hold territory. Second, the Ms are the most technologically and educationally challenged group the world over (on an average). So in an overt violent confrontation with the state, it would never be an ‘equivalent’ war so to say (like in Gazhni’s time when both sides had similar technology at their disposal) – this time it is inevitable that Ms would lose. Science to our rescue !! Third, then their most favourable method of warfare would be ‘demographic’. To put it crudely – they would have to keep breeding like rabbits and swamp us. Again this would be done by the relatively less affluent (or educated) within the M society. This keeps them in the same vicious cycle to poverty and illiteracy. What we get then is a large reserve army of menial labourers – who need to blow off steam occassionally – through bombs. Due to this, the ‘moderate’ muslim is kept on the defensive by imploring us to find the ‘root cause’ for the alienation of their co-religionists.
So realistically, do we need to look at the bigger picture and argue that radicalised Ms can never be an existential threat to others? Not because they don’t want to be, they just don’t have the capability to be so.
I look forward to your comments.
“Does the observation…. make us change our voting habits”
One of the problem with modern India is that most of the people who are modern (i.e., the middle class, blog writers/readers, commenters, critics, even politically reasonably aware) don’t vote. This is the reason that people like Mayawati, Mamata and Mulayam (Lalu has at least done something for the railways, even if he has stolen much more) come to power or have so much power. Perhaps you are talking about people taking up the habit… yes that would help.
Shivraj Patil must be one of the most incompetent ministers India has ever seen, and he has proved this over and over and over again. I can understand that he was initially given the Home ministry to check Pranab Mukherjee (one of the few ultra-competent politicians in the Congress) from being too powerful. But now that Sonia is all powerful and unchallenged, I don’t understand they don’t kick the idiot Patil out.
Damn! No matter how hard how would try, but i would certainly come up with same words..yeah..you are right…MY WORDS DON’T MATTER…IT’S LIKE 20-20 CRICKET…WHERE THESE PPL ARE PLAYING ON THE FRONTFOOT to score more ( Damn! isn’t it scorecard or wot? 29 in Delhi, 30 in Jaipur or whatever…) Yes, you are right we have accepted the fact…that it’s just that…I hope we all will have something to say or to do after we will die in one of these bomb blasts…Damn…but who would listen to us!!
@HHBB
I just feel sad for all the soldiers we have lost for those terrorists who were given an escorted ride by our Hon’able minister.
Dear Arnie, Mohit,
Regarding the Kandahar hijack, allow me to quote the relevant details from L.K.Advani’s autobiography “My Country My Life”:
CROSS-BORDER TERRORISM : A Pak-Jihadi Challenge and Our Response
Victory at all costs, victory in spite of all terror, victory however long and hard the road may be; for without victory there is no survival.
—WINSTON CHURCHILL
It was 24 December 1999. I was in my North Block offi ce on that rather cold Friday afternoon. As it always happens at this time, the country was eagerly awaiting the arrival of the new year. But there was a keener edge to this expectancy now. In a week it would be not just the new year, but also a new century and a new millennium. The following day was Christmas and also Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee’s seventy-fi fth birthday. The turbulent year was at its fag end. Atalji’s bus yatra to Lahore, our government’s fall by a solitary vote, a war in Kargil due to Pakistan’s betrayal, mid-term elections and a renewed mandate—this was more than enough to make the year eventful, and all of us in the government looked forward to a period of quietude.
THE HIJACKING OF INDIAN AIRLINES FLIGHT IC 814
The news that actually terrified the nation, and added further turbulence to the outgoing year, was the one I received as I was leafing through some official papers on Christmas Eve. Slightly before 5 pm, Shyamal Dutta, Director, IB, phoned me to say, ‘Sir, an Indian Airlines plane coming from Nepal has been hijacked.’ I was stunned by what I heard. ‘How many passengers are there on the flight?’ I asked. ‘More than 160,’ he said. The Delhi-bound IC 814, which had taken off from Kathmandu, was hijacked by five armed men who ordered the pilot to fly to Lahore. When the airport authorities in Lahore refused landing permission, the aircraft landed in Amritsar where the hijackers demanded that it be refuelled.
In the wake of the sudden developments, the Prime Minister called an emergency meeting at his residence. It was decided that our first priority would be to immobilise the plane at Amritsar and make it impossible for it to take off to any other destination outside the country. The Crisis Management Group (CMG), chaired by Cabinet Secretary Prabhat Kumar, was immediately activated to dispatch the message to the police authorities in Punjab. The CMG decided to send a fuel bowser to the aircraft, carrying commandos who would deflate its tyres. Unfortunately, minutes before it could reach the plane, the hijackers ordered the captain to take off. Its next stop, with just enough fuel for the trip, was Lahore, where Pakistani authorities not only refuelled the aircraft but also refused our request to prevent it from taking off. The hijackers then commandeered IC 814 to a military airbase near Dubai. There, they dumped the body of one of the passengers they had killed, Rupin Katyal, and released twenty-eight others. They asked the pilot to fly the aircraft, with 161 hostages on board, to Kandahar* in southern Afghanistan, which was then under Taliban rule.
* Kandahar was the capital of an ancient Hindu kingdom. Its princess Gandhari was married to Dhritarashtra, uncle of the Pandava brothers in the epic Mahabharata. Under Kanishka, the legendary Kushana emperor, Buddhism flourished in Afghanistan. Bamiyan Buddha, the tallest single-rock carving of Lord Buddha in the world, were created in the Kushana period. They were destroyed in 2001 by the Taliban government, which also allowed the ranscacking of the famous Kabul museum, which housed priceless exhibits showing Afghanistan’s deep civilisational links with India. Until some decades ago, Kandahar had a significant Hindu and Sikh population.
I spent the entire night at the CMG’s office at Rajiv Gandhi Bhavan, where Brajesh Mishra, the National Security Advisor, and other officials were also present, closely monitoring the developments and revising the strategy to secure the release of the hostages in the fast-changing scenario…. We soon learnt that the hijackers had been demanding the release of thirty-six terrorists from Indian jails, besides a ransom of US $200 million. But their main demand was for the release of Mohammad Masood Azhar, leader of one of the most dreaded terrorist organisations in Jammu & Kashmir, who had been arrested in 1994. The CCS decided to send a team of three officials—Ajit Doval, a senior offi cer in the IB known for handling tough operations, Vivek Katju, a Joint Secretary in the Ministry of External Affairs, and C.D. Sahay from the RAW—to Kandahar to negotiate with the hijackers as well as the Taliban authorities.
I was initially not in favour of exchanging the terrorists with the hostages. However, the situation that our government was faced with was truly extraordinary. The fact that the hijackers had taken the plane to Kandahar had rendered the situation much more complex and difficult. Usually, in such a situation, the captors are at least as much under pressure as the government of the country whose plane has been held captive, to conclude the negotiations quickly and strike a bargain. In this case, however, the hijackers were under no pressure at all and were prepared to prolong the period of captivity since they had three advantages. Firstly, they were in a hospitable territory—Taliban-ruled Afghanistan, with which India had no diplomatic relations, and they showed no signs of putting any pressure on them to end the hijack or leave the country. Secondly, we had credible information that every move of the hostagetakers was being masterminded by the ISI in Pakistan. Since the Taliban was a creation of the ISI, Pakistan had control over not only the plane, but also the airport. The Indian government had the option of sending its airborne commandos and troops to Kandahar in an attempt to rescue the hostages, but we received information that the Taliban authorities, under instruction from Islamabad, had ringed the airport area with tanks. Our commanders could have disarmed the hijackers inside the plane. However, outside the plane, an armed conflict with Taliban forces would have endangered the very lives that needed rescue.
There was another risk. Even the rescue planes would have had to fly over Pakistan’s airspace, the permission for which would have certainly been denied. We also had credible information, which was corroborated by the subsequent findings on the hijacked aircraft, that the hijackers were carrying grenades and explosives and were ready to blow up the plane. One of them had been heard saying that this ammunition was going to be used as a ‘millennium present for the government of India’, a spectacular terrorist act on New Year’s Day.
Thirdly, and the most unfortunate part of the entire episode, pressure was being mounted on the Indian government to ‘somehow’ save the lives of the hostages. As the crisis entered its third day, hysterical demonstrations by the relatives of some of the hostages were staged in front of the Prime Minister’s residence, and I regret to say that these were at least partly instigated by the BJP’s political adversaries. Some television channels chose to hype up these protests with round-the-clock publicity, creating an impression that the government was doing ‘nothing’ when the lives of so many Indians were at stake. All this made me wonder: ‘It used to be said that the Indian State is a soft state, but has Indian society also become a soft society?’ However, it was somewhat reassuring to see that these televised protests led the relatives of Kargil martyrs to urge the families of the hostages to be patient.
With mounting pressure from relatives on one hand, and the possibility of hijackers taking recourse to some desperate action on the other, the government most reluctantly took the option of minimising the losses. Three jailed terrorists, including Masood Azhar, were released on 31 December and handed over to the Taliban authorities in Kandahar. Our negotiating team in Kandahar bargained hard and was able to bring down the demand of release of thirty-six persons in jail to just three. All the passengers and crew members of IC 814 were released and returned to Delhi the same night. Thus ended a crisis, which presented to the world, a new face of warfare; a small group of ready-to-die terrorists challenging a country with a large standing army.
Throughout the hijack episode, my colleague Jaswant Singh, and his colleagues in the MEA, worked tirelessly to bring the crisis to a satisfactory end. As for the hijackers, escorted by their ISI mentors, they headed back to the country that had sponsored their heinous act. Indeed, a few days after his release, this is what Masood Azhar had to say to a cheering crowd in a mosque in Karachi: ‘I have come here because it is my duty to tell you that Muslims should not rest in peace until we have destroyed America and India.’
The security forces pursuing the trail of Pakistan’s Operation Hijack have made a significant breakthrough. Working in tandem with central intelligence agencies, the Mumbai Police have nabbed four ISI operatives, who comprised the support cell for the fi ve hijackers of the Indian Airlines plane. All these four are activists of the Harkat-ul-Ansar (HuA), a fundamentalist tanzeem based in Rawalpindi (Pakistan), which in 1997 was declared by USA as a terrorist organisation. After this declaration, the tanzeem has rechristened itself as Harkat-ul-Mujahideen (HuM). Interrogation of these four operatives has confirmed that the hijack was an ISI operation executed with the assistance of Harkat-ul-Ansar, and further, that all the five hijackers are Pakistanis.
As if to endorse the information I had given in Parliament, Pakistani media reported on the same day that the released terrorists had surfaced in Karachi. Thus, it was obvious that the hijack crisis was part of Pakistan’s continuing proxy war against India. Credible evidence has subsequently surfaced to suggest that the terrorists and their patrons linked to the hijack of IC 814 were also associated with the conspiracy that resulted in 9/11.
9/11 VINDICATED ATALJI’S PROPHETIC WORDS
India had been a victim of Pak-sponsored terrorism since the beginning of the 1980s. But it is only the determined and concerted efforts of the NDA government that made western democracies accept that Pakistan was, indeed, the sponsor of cross-border terrorism against India. As a matter of fact, our diplomatic offensive succeeded in another related objective: in making them realise that Pakistan’s abetment of terrorism was a threat not only to India but to the entire world. In the past, our friends in the West used to pretend, in spite of knowing the facts on the ground, that terrorism in India was due to local factors which the governments in New Delhi had failed to address. Some of them would even blame India for human rights violations in its fight against terrorism. It goes to the credit of the Vajpayee government that it not only put across the case against Pakistan with facts, fi gures and arguments, but did not hesitate to warn the US and other countries that their equivocation would prove costly to them.
No leader of the world spoke more prophetic words than Prime Minister Vajpayee in his address to the joint session of the US Congress in Washington DC on 14 September 2000. ‘No region is a greater source of terrorism than our neighbourhood. Indeed, in our neighbourhood—in this, the twenty-first century—religious war has not just been fashioned into, it has been proclaimed to be, an instrument of state policy. Distance and geography provide no nation immunity against international terrorism. You know, and I know: such evil cannot succeed. But even in failing it could inflict untold suffering.’ (emphasis added.)
Almost exactly a year later, on 11 September 2001, the United States— indeed, the entire world—realised the truth of these words.
Source: http://www.mycountrymylife.com/excerpts/phase-5.html
Hi Mamoo Mastana,
Thanks for your excellent comment. It perfectly encapsulates the issue and its implications.
Hi Arnie,
I really enjoy reading your comments as well. They are beautifully written, well researched and trenchantly thought-provoking.
Wrt your points on the implications of an exploding Islamic population in India, I differ with you. I think you have portrayed only the optimistic scenarios of this impending calamity. History, both past and present, convince me that far from this, a dark and dismal scenario will arise. I juxtapose my predictions against yours and leave you to decide which is more likely. I pray that you are right and I am wrong, but I dread that I am right.
@ Arnie “On a purely strategic sense – what can a few bomb blasts by the ‘Indian Mujahadin’ achieve? They can only bomb, hide and run – so in effect a ‘hijron ki fauj’ which cannot hold territory”.
This is just a jigsaw piece in a far larger and complex mosaic. On an intellectual & strategic level, Islam considers Hinduism its antithesis, an evil belief system requiring obliteration. Even if all Muslims do not believe this (and at least 60% don’t), the ones that matter, the ones that lead them, openly advocated this hatred from 638AD to the 1950s.
Now that they are on a temporary military backstep, their leaders are a bit more cautious, and only fully indulge in venting this antipathy behind closed doors. However, actions of Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and many of our own Indian Ulemas and madrassas (SIMI for e.g.) leave no doubt in any sane person’s mind, that while a temporary lull, it is still part of a civilisational conflict to the end.
These bombs are not a few bombs per se, but fillers only, i.e. bombs blown up in the brief interlude between the open conflicts of a Bangladesh and a Kargil and then … Kashmir (?)
And remember. Each time, our national strength, political will and numbers sap. While each time they grow stronger.
@ Arnie : “Second, the Ms are the most technologically and educationally challenged group the world over (on an average). So in an overt violent confrontation with the state, it would never be an ‘equivalent’ war so to say (like in Gazhni’s time when both sides had similar technology at their disposal) – this time it is inevitable that Ms would lose. Science to our rescue !!”
Don’t be so confident that they will lose. This is not going to be a conventional war waged between a few of them and our huge land mass. We are fractured, fissiporous, centrifugal and divisive amongst ourselves. They are, at least the ones that define the Hindu-Muslim interface, ruthlessly unified in their atavistic antagonism … just refer back to partition.
Further, the technology required to inflict immense harm need not be boffinesque. Crude technology was employed during 9/11 to cause catastrophes. And during riots, paleolithic technology (read brickbats and fire) is sufficient to cause carnage (Great Calcutta Killing). And riots are an inevitable outcome.
@ Arnie “Third, then their most favourable method of warfare would be ‘demographic’. To put it crudely – they would have to keep breeding like rabbits and swamp us. Again this would be done by the relatively less affluent (or educated) within the M society. This keeps them in the same vicious cycle to poverty and illiteracy. What we get then is a large reserve army of menial labourers – who need to blow off steam occassionally – through bombs. Due to this, the ‘moderate’ muslim is kept on the defensive by imploring us to find the ‘root cause’ for the alienation of their co-religionists”.
Alas, if only the demographic chess-game proceeded according to your prognosis. I envisage a far more sinister scenario.
In each generation, I see 60% of their population being smitten by technology, development and social progress. These are the ones that will have 2 kids, gain economic security, enjoy Bollywood, squirm at the cruder Hindu idols but vocally believe in the Hindu right to practise its faith, as well as express genuine interest in Hindu Raja Yoga.
But the 40% that don’t, are the ones that will breed 6 kids each, wallow in deeper ignorance and filth, and believe it is the ugly Hindu, the crafty Jew, the crusading Christian, or the sexual pervert atheist who is responsible for their abysmal plight. They are the ones who will be appealed to, brainwashed, and finally recruited to engage in jehad.
Thus you see, we will always have 40% of the Islamic population as seething enemies. This will unfailing, unfailingly, lead to ultimate conflict initiated by them. Perhaps sporadic riots at first. But the dots will ultimately be joined up to form a concerted campaign of attacks in the end. A chemical reaction is brewing. How long before the test-tube explodes?
Even before this apocalypse is reached, as our population dwindles every day, we as revenue generators will have to part more and more of our hard-earned resources to finance their alarmingly expanding unproductive populace. Whether through haj subsidies, or Kashmir sops, or reservation, or temple funds directed to Waqf boards ( … I don’t pronounce it Wuck-off, but …. never mind), our wealth is being drained away.
Ultimately, it will inevitably result in alarming tax hikes, or diversion of precious investment that should have been channelled to our legitimate means.
The open conflagaration of apocalypse will come. But the build-up to that will not be too dulcet either.
CONCLUSION : AM I RIGHT OR WORNG?
=================================
You may disagree with my percentages, but I believe my principle stands. You may believe it is 10% and not 40%. Even assuming that, a 10% of a one billion population as enemies is twice the size of Nazi Germany, kinder and fraus included.
We are seeing weaker sections of India and Europe being taken over. Go to Athens. Omoniya is riddled with Lebanese, Bangladeshis and Albanians. Go to Berlin. Turks and Lebanese. Even tiny Malta witnesses a mass flight of North African Muslims. Go to Malmo in Sweden, overrun by Iraqis. Forget France and GB. They’re gone.
So Serbia / Bosnia, Kossovo, Chechnya have all witnessed the raging fires of battles and riots, while in the rest of unsuspecting Europe, the fires are being stoked. There is no difference between the two. The former is the inevitable outcome of the latter.
In India it’s worse. Far worse. 3 million (?) Hindus (?) were massacred during 1971. This time, given our increased and contrived amnesia, emasculation, vilification of Hindu and India, and chillingly hostile political set-up, the number of Hindu victims may be higher.
Far higher.
Dear all,
Here is the list of the 26 innocent Eid ka bakras (along with their Hindu names, age, gender, address), who were slaughtered by Islamist Jihadis in New Delhi (Saturday evening, September 13, 2008).
Many of the Hindus killed were women and girls. Atleast one of them was a 2-year old infant, Master Kishan.
Please keep them in your prayers:
1. Vinod Kumar 42/M, Village Churu, Rajasthan
2. Prithviraj, 25/M, Village Rahulla PO Belgram , Hardoi, UP
3. Subroto Mandal, 21/M, House no. 2836, Telpuri Gali , Kinari Bazar, Delhi
4. Ganga Prasad, 40/M, House no. 2943/42, Beadonpura, New Delhi
5. Pooja, 18/F, Beadonpura
6. Vikas Anand, 25/M, House no. F-367, Rajajipuram Colony, Lucknow
7. Raju, 40/M, address not known
8. Hanumandin Singh, 50/M, address not known
9. Ram Lal, 45/M, address not known
10. Babita, 20/F, address not known
11. Kamini, 25/F, Baroda
12. Hari Chand, 50/M, New Delhi
13. Chander Bhan, 50/M, Karol Bagh
14. Saroj, 20/F, address not known
15. Amit Saxena, 26/M, Kanpur, UP
16. Master Kishan, 2/M, MCD Ghaffar Market Road, near Gali No.42
17. Ashok Bhatti, 30/M, MCD Ghaffar Market Road, near Gali No.42
18. Bhaskar, 25/M, VPO, Brahmpura, Distt, Bhagalpur, Bihar
19. Unknown, 35/M
20. Manoj Singh, 15/M, Bihar
21. Tejender Singh, 30/M, Patel Nagar, House no. T-139/B, Baljeet Nagar
22. Pawan Kumar, Male, Vishal Enclave, Rajouri Garden
23. Kishen Bhatti, Male, MCD Ghaffar Market Road, near Gali No.42
24. Nepal Sarkar, Male, Todapur, Inderpuri Gangaram
25. Manoj Singh, 75/M, Vasant Apartment, Mayur Vihar Ph-I
26. Rajni Gupta, 42/F, Pitampura, CD-202
You said it. We seriously need a dark knight. 😐
@Sameer : _Terror in any form must be recognized for what it is, and stopped_
Agreed. But if you want to understand the difference between BD and SIMI ask Rajni Gupta’s or Manoj Singh’s family (thanks Mammoo Mastana for the list above) and the shop keeper in Manglore who lost his window glass pane because of BD “terror”.Manoj Singh’s family will never ever recover. The shopkeeper on the other hand?… take a wild guess.
I am assuming you’d appreciate the difference between a parking ticket and a DUI drunk driving. Of course in both cases law is broken and in both cases we should stand up and criticise. But are they the same really?
BD is terrorizing, assuming we base this argument on Times of India or NDTV. If you need to know whom though, ask the poor tribals of Orrissa, who cannot stand up to forcible conversions using money and muscle power. And tell them not to let their friends “terrorize” .. ‘on-so-innocent’ vatican soul harvestors, will ya? Or tell that to ashmram people who saw “innocent christian” AK-47 wielding gunmen, who massacred people inside the ashram.
May be you can, but it is beyond me to compare, BD and SIMI. One is reactionary, the other one takes orders from Karachi and is looking to bring Sharia to India. Same? Really?
Such comparison plays right into hands of these people, who need validation and justification for their sins. (It’s like..”see your BD guys also “terrorise” people. All we do is just bomb and maime innocent people. Not like them, block roads, weild trishul..”)
Again, let’s not trivialize what happened in Delhi,Ahemdabad,Jaipur by making a moral equivalence between BD and SIMI. It’s painful.
@kaunteya Thats a rather selective sampling of facts. Its repulsive to propose the acts of one as the justification for the “reaction” of the other. Both sides have taken lives (Gujarat, Orissa) so merely knowing the names of some of the victims does not make for a stronger argument. If muscle is being used for conversions, then there are legal ways – however tough the battle is – to sort those out. Thats the basis of a constitutional Republic, and in my mind thats NOT negotiable. Anyone who tries subverting that through intimidation at the scale that both SIMI or the BD are attempting is, pure and simple, an extremist, and definitely anti-national. That becomes terrorism when the end-goal is reached and a scare created. From the turnout at Malls across the country, I’d say so far the BD/Sena is succeeding more than SIMI, though, at terrorizing.
Their actions are in no way justification for what the Islamic Extremists are doing. at the same time, the reverse is true too, wouldn’t you agree?
This is not a time to take sides with or against one group of regressive anti-nationals or the other. Its time to take a stand for the rule of law, however bleak the prospects of it appear.
Are there any *Indians* left ? Or have we all been reduced to just being Hindus, Muslims, Tamilians, Kannadigas, Gujjars, Kashmiris, Pandits and the like? Those are fine identities when emphasized positively – but I only see their association *against* something, not FOR.
If the BD wants to fight conversions – excellent! This should become a wonderful opportunity and trigge for reforms within society – the caste issues, the economic imbalances, etc. But then, that needs “leaders” who can create and help form public opinion a-la Ram Mohun or Gandhi – not merely those who can just whip up hysteria fed by base denominators of irrational fears, mistrust and a tendency to demonize the “other”. Pardon me the crude analogy, but its way tougher to improve and market your product well, than destroy the shelves of your competitors. Its way more productive too, but only if you’re upto it.
I suggest a different route. Let’s Channelise Our Anger into “Constructive Nation Building”.
The Islamic Jihadis brazenly seek to destroy your Hindu-ness, which is the soul of Mother India. Let’s do a little bit every day that will strengthen the spiritual and cultural coefficients of our Hindu civilisation. Just give 10 minutes of your time everyday for this noble mission. Contact your local representatives of:
1) Ekal Vidyalaya ( http://www.ekalindia.org )
Get involved with the largest mission to educate, empower, and energise rural and tribal India. Be a part of this grass-roots movement sweeping India that has brought Swami Vivekananda’s dream to nearly 1 million kids across India.
2) AIM For Seva ( http://www.aimforseva.org )
Dedicated to bridge the gap between mainstream society and people living in remote areas, under the dynamic leadership of Swami Dayananda Saraswati. Join the urban youth and adults as they endeavour to build Chatralayas (Student Homes) in each and every district of India.
3) Samskrita Bharati ( http://www.samskrita-bharati.org )
Learning to speak, yes, speak the ancient language of Sanskrit was never so easy and never so much fun. Over 6 million people have now learned to speak Sanskrit – the fun way. Are you one of them?
4) Hinduism Today ( http://www.hinduismtoday.com )
Spend a few minutes every day to read up more about the tremendous growth of Hinduism Around The World. You may know a lot already, but it pales in comparison to what is still out there. This digital magazine will be your friend, philosopher and guide during your journey.
5) Do You Have It In You? ( http://joinindianarmy.nic.in )
If you still have the urge to physically resist the onslaught on our beloved motherland…. If you are bored of your sedentary, boring career….. If you want to kick ass and pump some lead into the Jihadis who spill our blood, then this career is just for you.
@Hara Hara Bom Bom, Arnie
Your sweeping demographic analysis and strategy, and the implied solutions, are strikingly similar to the philosophies of 3 key figures in 20th century history.
They are Hitler, Stalin and Mao. In each case, their deranged theories, and their ability to relentlessly pursue them, led to the deaths of tens of millions of innocent people.
By what you say, we would have achieved a uniquely Indian innovation — Mutually Assured Destruction, without even using nuclear weapons!
However difficult it may seem, shouldn’t we be looking for an alternative “solution”? Or do you prefer the finality of this one?
@ RadicalBong : “Let me see whether I have understood your thesis correctly.”
Every single point you raise about my thesis (sic) is wrong.
It is more a product of your fervent imagination …. and possible Freudian slippages.
I have discussed this, point by point, many times before, and will not do so again to indulge your half-baked, impatient, cursory, incorrect and outright false constructions posing as inferences.
Bye-di-bye.
@ Hara Hara Bom Bom:
its not about your “imaginery” 40% that we need to be aware of and be afraid of or be prepared to counter in the future.
I am a Hindu too, and does it implicate me on the ravagery of the Babri Masjid?Its not about Hinduism or Islam. Nowhere in the holy Quraan is Hinduism considered to be the antithesis that you make it out to be.
Its opinions like yours that we really need to be aware of in the future.While presenting your opinion you definitely kept in mind the freedom of speech but forgot about the secularism of the country.
It definitely is impossible to change rigid opinions based on hatred for another community,coz the hatred might have its roots in the yesteryears.Nor is it my business to ask you to make you change yours.But one thing I would tell you for sure as a fellow Hindu, if you go through History,you will find various despeccable acts by us Hindus as well.
It is the future that matters,not the past.And it is opinions like this which does not help.
@ Mamoo Mastana:
We will keep them in our prayers as fellow human beings who were killed by an inhuman bunch of activists who have no idea of the objective of their jehaad.
should we remember them as Hindus who were killed by Islamic jehaadis and keep awake the communal fire in mind?
Is that the solution?
abhinab @: “Nowhere in the holy Quraan is Hinduism considered to be the antithesis that you make it out to be.”
Abhinab,
I agree with you. Nowhere in the Qur’an is Hinduism ALONE considered to be evil and worthy of destruction. This is not a special treatment reserved for Hinduism ALONE in the Qur’an.
I am devastated to let you know that the Qur’an and its Prophet (PBUH) have commanded their followers to wipe out EVERY SINGLE non-Islamic religion (and that includes Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism and even Atheism) by killing or converting the latter’s adherents to Islam relentlessly – until the whole world submits to Islam.
In fact, I don’t want you to believe me at all. But I do request you to patiently read the writings of several Arab, Pakistani, Iranian and Bangladeshi free-thinkers who have exposed the “Arab Imperialistic Totalitarian Political Ideology” that masquerades as a religion.
1) I especially recommend Dr. Ali Sina’s articles at: http://www.FaithFreedom.org/testimonials.htm
2) And the writings of the late Anwar Shaikh, M.A.Khan, Abul Kasem, Ayesha Ahmed, Mumin Salih and other brave souls at: http://www.islam-watch.org/LeavingIslam/index.html
3) If you like buying a book instead of reading articles, I would request you to google up this Pakistani author’s name: “ ibn warraq ”
Since I don’t want to litter Arnab’s excellent blog with numerous Qur’anic couplets, I am going to restrain myself and give you a couple of hints. I know you are smart enough to do enough research on this topic.
4) First hint: In the Qur’an, just replace the word “Non-Muslim” with the opposite word “Muslim” ….. and lo, presto ! What do you see? Hate Speech? If you don’t get the idea, see this first page: http://www.TheReligionOfPeace.com/Articles/Quran_Hate.htm
5) Second hint: Is the Qur’an Hate Propaganda? You take a look at this second (different) page and tell me, ok?: http://www.TheReligionOfPeace.com/Pages/Quran-Hate.htm
@ abhinab : “its not about your imaginAry 40% that we need to …. counter in the future”.
Yes. You are right and I am wrong. Partition was my imagination. The slaughter of millions of Hindus in the 20th century is just me being liberal with the whacky baccy. The systematic and clinical extermination of Hindus from Pakistan, (rendering them from 35% pre-partition to 0.6% today), is a product of me imbibing the fermented jungle juice. Swamping of border areas, where, in India, Hindus, TODAY, are being strangled out, it’s all a lie.
All an illusion. The great Maya. The big, fat Maya !!
@ab : “I am a Hindu too, and does it implicate me on the ravagery (ehh? What ????) of the Babri Masjid?”
If you’d been doing it for 1,300 years, with millions of your peers, proudly, boastfully, liberally, smashing hundreds of thousands of Babri Masjids in your terrible wake, where a clear and distinct pattern is evident, then folk may start harbouring suspicions.
Anyway, Babri Masjid was brutally conquered, insultingly imposed, visible sign of imperial tyranny. Like the Swastika signs in conquered Nazi lands. Anyone with a shred of self-pride and dignity need not squirm about the long overdue reclamation of it.
Or are you happy about walking down Aurangzeb street in Aurangabad, named after a mass-murderor who is responsible for the genocide of my forefathers and yours? Does that make you proud? Does that make you want to rush and gobble up a nolen gur sandesh post haste?
@ ab “Its not about Hinduism or Islam.”
Sigh !!! Of course not. Partition was not about Hinduism or Islam. It was about Mohunbagan and EastBengal. The avowed 1,400 year shrill, attested, historically supported campaign to slaughter infidels and kaffirs, and smash vibrant Hindu cities and temples, is not about Hm and Islam. It’s about the relative merits of pisciculture of Hilsa and Chingrii.
I rest my case. Sigh. With this extent of cringingly egregious and sycophantic denial, do you see why our community has no hope in hell of surviving this century?
@ ab “Nowhere in the holy Quraan is Hinduism considered to be the antithesis that you make it out to be”.
Yes, you’re right. The Koran praises Hinduism when it calls upon its followers to force kaffirs to embrace Islam, or be destroyed.
@ ab “While presenting your opinion you …forgot about the secularism of the country.”
I never forget the swindle passed off as secularism in India. I am only too painfully aware of it every living moment. The aroma that fills my nostrils every time I am forced to walk by Colootolla reminds me only too vividly of what’s coming.
@ ab “It definitely is impossible to change rigid opinions based on hatred for another community, coz the hatred might have its roots in the yesteryears.
False. If you’d taken the trouble of reading my comments, you will see I always mention the trouble is not because of the past. It is because of what is patently happening in the present, and what we can clearly see happening in the future.
@ ab “But one thing I would tell you for sure as a fellow Hindu, if you go through History,you will find various despeccable (sic !!!) acts by us Hindus as well”.
I have never denied Hindu shortcomings. Now, list the 10 main Hindu sins. I will list the corresponding 10 main Islamic ones. Then we will assess their impact over tenure, geography, harm to soceity, number of people affected, impact on social progress/regress etc.
Do that, and we will have a basis of a debate, rather than your emotional outbursts and my poor nocturnal sarcasm aimed as a rebuttal.
@ ab “And it is opinions like this which does not help”.
I know. Truth hurts. Sorry. Does it pain too much?
Ok enough of the religion wars. Once again.
Hey, GB, what religious wars? I thought it was all about hilsa and chingri? Ahh I can still taste the chingir-malaikaari at my neighbours wedding last winter.
Seriously, looking forward to an opportunity to ask about the relative merits of USA, Australia, UK or Canada as a good emigration location. I’m running out of time.
Tick tock. Tick tock. Tick tock.
@ Radicalbong
I sorry but I do not believe that either HHBB or I were proposing any ‘solutions’ in our discussions. In fact, I thought I was merely positing a scenario based on lassaize faire approach to any islamist actions on the citizens. In other words let whatever is happenning continue and my arguments were that it would not really matter.
HHBB happened to disagree with my scenarios and gave his reasons for why he felt that a ‘civilisational conflict’ was inevitable in his opinion. All very civilised only 🙂
Good morning Arnie,
Don’t you know that secularists can read our thoughts and minds? And speak for us better than we could ever dream of articulating?
Thay r varry chalaak peepul, end ve r so varry daam.
Joy secularism. Joy democraZy. Inqilaaaaaab. Zinadabaaad, Zindabaaad.
@ HHBB
Alas if that is a cross we have to bear for trying to have a factual discussion, we must be prepared to do it. Don’t you think so?
I went through your arguments and I cannot claim that what you suggest is an impossible scenario. However, let me take issue when you claim that – ‘they are ruthlessly unified’. My question to you is – are they? They might be unified in their desire to turn India into a ‘dar-ul-aman’, but surely they have their faultlines and their achilles heels too? Shias and Sunnis for instance or the regional aspirations of Pashtuns and Baloch for instance? Is it not possible then to use ‘salami slicing’ tactics against them? The US did it quite successfully with the Iran-Iraq conflict.
So my question – Is this perception of ‘unity of purpose’ of the islamists overstated?
Jinnah gave the rallying cry – Unity, Faith, Discipline for the creation of pakistan. Look at its state now. it did not even survive 25 years as a single entity and indications are that it would be split up again.
@Arnie,
I would think that the discussion on religion and how to control one has dragged on for quite some time and I thought the words “enough of the religion wars” would stop this strain of conservation in the current thread. Evidently not. However, in response to what you said I would just like to add one thing: USA had, and still has, little understanding for the difference between Shias and Sunnis and in general of Shia aspirations. If they had, then they could have actually had a resounding victory in Iraq.
Not to elaborate too much, but when USA invaded Iraq, the happiest people were the Shias because with a “one person one vote” the majority of Shias could once more rule Iraq. The priests in neighbouring Iran, all Shias, issued fatwas in support of USA and of democracy in Iraq ! Yes I know thats tough to believe but its the truth. Rather than use that to their tactical advantage and make Iraq a stable democracy, the US went by the advice of Sunni Saudi Arabia (who fear Shias) and declared Iran as a member of the Axis of Evil, even though they were the US’s biggest friends in that region, at that point. Of course once you go so far, enmity is inevitable.
Just wanted to make that point. Some day I want to write a post on my take on Arab nationalism, Islam and Israel and elaborate on these points.
@GB
Fair enough – I do not wish to abuse your hospitality. No more discussions on religion. And please do write your thoughts on Arab nationalism and Israel. I was in egypt recently perhaps I could share some insights from what I gathered about arab nationalism during my stay there.
@HHBB:
Great, you call what was passed on the 26th of january 1950 in the name of constitution (the secularism part of it) as a swindle? You are right, one should not have faith on the memorandum of the nation…after all it is a 58 year old compilation of trash.I congratulate you for categorically annihilating my “emotional outburst” which rose out of a chief concern for the future of this country.My concern was baseless, this country should be declared a “Hindu” rashtra’ coz over the years only muslims have slaughtered Hindus and we have sat back at home and have either been slaughtered or just escaped.Not a single Musalmaans blood has ever been shed. Lets make this a Hindu nation and start slaughtering them bearing mind the facts you have presented rather than hope for a new beginning.
Absolutely,I am in synch with you,I need to change my opinion, not you,coz you spell out the TRUTH. Lets live in the past.
Up with Communalism,
Hail HHBB.
@ Mamoo Mastana
I read those. Sure they are hateful,and I never said their doctrines and their attitude has been commendable over the years.
But,I ask you again,why brood on the past and not let these events and ideologies take a backseat?
I am not championing the cause of the Taliban or a Saddam Hussain or even the chameleon Pak government. But does even the Indian muslims deserve the looks they get in India?
Sure a bunch of them still support Pakistan in cricket.
But apart from passing a few minority bills,have we been hospitable enough in our attitude?
Why are we discussing this at all? Dont we all want secular brotherhood ?
@kaunteya
— http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshowpics/3480893.cms —
A really disgusting sight. Just the news of people dying sends shivers. And here they were, visiting the place where the BLOOD had been shed, and still they were smiling…(could it be TOI goof up???..i wish)
Was wondering what made them smile…probably humming a rehash of the DCH song..koi kahe..
Koi Mare , marta rahe,
Kitna hai humko gavana.
hum logon ki BLESSINGS se hai yeh zamana.
(“dedicating” this one to our HM)
Jale jo duniya, jalne bhi do,
Lade jo duniya , ladne bhi do,
Tum apne suit badlao…
Aaye humein vote aur MP churana.
Hum hain naye, POTA ho phir kyun purana..
(not intended to tone down the seriousnes of the situation, but sadly this seems to be the Attitude of those who’ve got to be serious)
Hi abhinaab,
The answers to your queries are all in my prevous comments. I will not elaborate, as I respect GB’s gentle admonitions on the debate collapsing to a polarised Hindu-Muslim topic.
However, I will briefly raise the issue of the manner of conducting debate by secularists. I recommend you properly read your ‘antagonists’ comments before contorting and squeezing them in to the stereo-template ‘you’ have defined.
For e.g, you say-
– I want to turn India in to an exclusively Hindu nation.
– I believe that no Mussalmaan blood has ever been spilled
– I dwell in the past
In numerous comments, I have advocated the exact opposite. You are mixing apples and pears, distorting arguments to the vitriol that ‘you’ believe your antagonists ‘should be’ spouting.
In one comment, I had mentioned that if a hypothetical scenario arose where God wanted the whole world to become Hindu overnight, I would be the first person to be horrified and protest. They beauty of this world is diversity. The key to social progress and evolution is differing belief systems.
I just don’t want my ‘diverse brothers’ to be holding scimitars to my neck. The whole point of guarding against the militant aspect of Islam, is the fact that they throttle diversity, choke progress, reducing the world in to another Taleban hell-hole that was Afghanistan.
And I am willing to shed convenient political correctness and sycophancy to petro-dollars to highlight it. That does not make me communal, but secular in the true sense of the word.
It is the dumb-ass section of the secularists merrily insisting on
– whitewash (if not falsification) of 1,000 years of history,
– distortion of the pain of millions in the present, and
– dogged insistence on inaction in the face of tragedy, under the banner of ‘soul introspection’ & ‘if they killed 1,000 of you, you killed 1 of them as well, so you are not perfect and thus shut up about your son being blown up’ …
… these are the people I wonder about. Are they truly secular? Or just congenitally anti-Hindu?
@ HHBB
answer: Truely secular,
I am still waiting for you to explain why you think you dont dwell in the past.
You just said you have advocated exactly the opposite.
sorry,I read something else,they are not secular…they are bigtime Sons of a you-know-what,
But I am still waiting for your answer about living in the past.
I understand your concern,who wants to be slaughtered, but the only humble question I raise is cant be share the guilts of the past and look forward to a better future?
Hi Arnie,
This is a response to your comment of employing divisive tactics in the Middle-East and India’s opportunity to exploit it.
I agree that political Islam is not a monolithic block, ‘hating India and Indian culture’ with total contempt. There are many eddies and currents in its flow.
Overall, however, I would say that Muslims are far more unified than Hindus. Whenever conflicts arise with non-Muslims, history shows that they combine against their common foe, sinking all differences. It is only when their common foe has been annihilated, that any bitter mutual animnosity is resurrected.
Just 2 instances from history should support this :
1. Descendants of the Bahmani kingdoms were engaged in tooth-clenching hostility to one another. However, they unified in to a perfectly correlated fighting force to wipe out Vijaynagar. And only after then resume their animosity.
2. Iran and Iraq can afford to hate so frenziedly precisely because they are near 100% Islamic nations. If Armenia starts becoming a viable threat, I guarantee you Iran and Iraq will embrace like brothers, obliterate the common foe, and then resume their mutual scything.
[HISTORICAL ASIDE] : Iran and Iraq have been ferocious battlegrounds from time immemorial, perhaps from the time of Sargon of Akkad.
There is some evidence emerging that the Hindu Mitanni kingdom of Iraq may have faced a threat from its east as well, as it’s total collapse seems unlikely to be caused by Hittite Turks alone.
In the 900 BCs, Assyria conquered Sumer and Elam and unleashed hell, going on to wipe out cities in the Levant and Egypt, and further east.
Later, in the 600 BCs, the people from the east, the Medeans, helped the (neo)-Babylonians to destroy the cruel Assyrian yoke.
The Achaemanid Persians ruled Iraq with a just but brutal hand. By Roman times, bloodbaths wsere being waged every thirty years in Iraq, as Rome desperately tried expanding eastwards, resisted by a vicious and determined Sassanid empire.
The Byzantines had some like, defeating the Persians and recovering the ‘true cross’ that Chosroes had wrested from Jerusalem, but after Manzikert, all their Eastern might evaporated.
When Hulagu came with his Mongols, the deserts of Iran and Iraq were soaked in blood. Timurlane’s conquests were even more horrific. He would flatten cities, slicing their entire inhabitants.
Iraq was also he battleground of the Ottoman Turks and Safavid Persians.
As such, I don’t think we can rely upon the faint and ever shifting fault-lines in Islam to save us.
How was Egypt? Did you manage to visit Luxor & Karnak? They are yet unfulfilled dreams for me.
@ hara hara bom bom
>>>It is the dumb-ass section of the secularists merrily insisting on
– whitewash (if not falsification) of 1,000 years of history,
– distortion of the pain of millions in the present, and
– dogged insistence on inaction in the face of tragedy, under the banner of ’soul introspection’ & ‘if they killed 1,000 of you, you killed 1 of them as well, so you are not perfect and thus shut up about your son being blown up’ …
—- I don’t know what to believe, or how much to believe of the history. So I will leave that for the time being.
—- Pain of millions
Are you telling me that Muslims do not have any pain, and they are totally thrilled, after having their daily pint of blood? People have suffered from all communities, religions, and that is just a line which helps you feed your own anger.
—- 1 < 1000
Do you have any data on the actual number of Hindus vs Muslims killed in bombings, terror attacks and riots in India since Independence? Do you realise that really sounds like a line from a mad Mullah to his students? They would be claiming that for every thousand of us, 1 of them have died, and now we introspect.
There is terrorism, and there are riots, there are injustices which are historic. But mostly what I see is anger – let’s teach them a lesson. It would make sense if it really is even possible to teach anyone a lesson.
Like it or not, the only lesson we can really teach is by being less nasty to each other. Before we know, this entire teaching them a lesson one way or the other could develop into something that will enter all of our homes’ and kill us. As against the occasional communal riot or bomb attack.
Hi GB,
This is my last comment on the comment-thread “And Yet Again”, as I agree, it is becoming reduced to a Hindu-Muslim one, though I fail to see how we can properly analyse the situation without bringing in the exclusive religious cause behind it.
I am really looking forward to your comments on Arab nationalism (and its corollary democracy in Islamic nations?). WTF had waxed lyrical on the vibrancy of democracy in Lebanon and other Islamic nations, and the deplorable state of India’s democracy. At that time, I wanted to present my comment on how democratic Iraq, Lebanon, Palestine, Egypt, Bangladesh, Pakistan and Turkey truly were. And why a non-democratic Algeria and Egypt were infinitely preferred to a ‘democratically’ elected Arab or Islamic nationalist nation.
you never answered my question…
anyways,hope to meet you on some other post.
abinaab and Matt,
Gosh, you guys are quick. No sooner than I have posted a comment, you’ve responded to it.
I had mentioned to GB that I did not want to comment further in this thread, but since you’ve raised valid queries BEFORE my peremptory response to GB, I’ll make this exception.
I don’t dwell in the past, as I read the papers and watch the news. Every day.
I don’t dwell in the past as I travel most of the year (less so now) around the world, witnessing firsthand the tense build-up of Islamic momentum, and it’s inevitable course of outlet.
I don’t dwell in the past as I engage in numerous discussions with Muslims, from various walks of society. The Turk in Wedding (Berlin). The Somalian in Manchester. The Arab in Omoniya (Athens). The Bangladeshi in Rome and Venice. The Pakistani in London. The Iraqi en route to Sweden claiming asylum. The Shia in Bahrain. The Sunni in Dubai. The Lebanese in Kings X (Sydney … don’t ask me what I was doing there !!). The Kurd in Burnaby (Vancouver). The Moroccan in Pigalle (Paris). And of course, the numerous chats with my many Muslim acquaintances (some of them, the liberal ones, are very close friends, and petrified like me at the surge of militant Islam). I have first hand experience of gaining insights in to their thought processes to understand the prognosis.
The truth is, I do not dwell in the past. The truth is you have no idea of the future.
Matt’s comments on the infinitely preferable “occasional communal riot or bomb attack” to “something that will enter all of our homes and kill us” is relevant. I would like to ask if the wipe-out of the Hindu population of Pakistan, within the last few decades, from a pre-partion figure of 35% to 0.6%, is this the result of an occasional bomb-blast, or a systematic campaign that ‘affected them all”.
What about the slaughter of Hindus in Bangladesh? Realistic estimates suggest 2.5 million victims. Even the most amiable sources to Pakistan cannot whittle the number to below 0.5 million. All this was three and a half decades ago. Just 8 years before I was born. Is this an occasional communal riot against a few, or an outcome of a sustained operation of terror against an entire community, which has affected not only all of Bangladesh, but all of India today?
And the misery of Kashmiri pundits today? Oh sorry, it seems I cannot bring that in the equation, as that is dwelling in the past. So how far back am I permitted to review? 24 hours? If so, hey presto, there has been no brutality on Hindus ever. A genocide last month cannot be submitted as evidence, as that is dwelling in the past. Any outrage today can be deferred under the argument “Thaa poolish ish lookhing inthoo tha mutter”, and tomorrow, hey presto, it becomes forgotten as ‘the past’ and can never be accessed.
By Jiminy. One slight of hand, and all our problems are solved.
But then, there is the real world.
PS abhinaab,
There is a time delay between comments being typed and them appearing. Your last two comments had not appeared when I tried closing off with GB. If I knew you had unresolved issues, I would have responded first before attempting to close the issue.
If you still have unfinished questions, raise a comment, but get GB’s permission first to pursue this comment thread in spite of his caution. We do not want to appear to abuse his goodwill. At the same time, we do not want unrequited and open questions.
I just hope people who want to change the Indian tricolor to “star and crescent” or “saffron” remain on the fringes. Also its amusing to note how the Hindutatva brigade uses secularist as some sort of abusive word, interesting times indeed.
What makes me sadder that the middle class, which is supposed to be the bulwark of stability in any society has got many people in it, who openly support the thugs.
[GB adds: Edited out the last sentence in the interest of stopping the pillow-fight :-). Pillow fights, even on the same topic, are entertaining but only once in a while.]
Lunch is for wimps … and pillow fights are for … women. So Spark can beat me up, but I won’t be able to retaliate.
Ouch, that eiderdown hurt. But in a curiously exciting sort of way. Do that again, Spark. Feather me down, feather me down again.
It is not only a spark, but a clever one at that.
@ Matt I think you said it right – its anger/angst from all sides, misdirected, and generally finds a foe. Arguments can be constructed any which way you like, and justifications can be found. Selective picking of “facts” or at least their selective interpretation is sooo easy. I’m sure a lot many in Pakistan genuinely believed India was the aggressor in the Kargil conflict, whatever the truth and whatever our take on the facts. Similarly, a lot many Karnataka politicians were falling over each other trying to justify the horrible acts of the last couple of days as “valid reactions to provocation” – perhaps in different words.
I guess if you have a stone in your hand, and you’re irritated or feel victimized, you’ll find something or someone to throw it at. Reasons, reason or rational thought goes for a toss. And when its done for political gain (Raj Thackeray, the BD in Karnataka being a case in point), its actually much worse.
I don’t think there’s any arguments to be won with those who must vent their angst and anger. I just pray there are more of us “secularists” (like someone said, its almost used as an expletive 🙂 ) who’re less/not angry. Else, well, the constitution will someday be rewritten and we’ll be finding our own Jews.
Samer : “Else, well, the constitution will someday be rewritten and we’ll be finding our own Jews”.
Ahh, but which Jews? The ones that were massacred for 1,950 years as they never fought back? The ones that were gassed in Zyklon-B death-houses all over Nazi Europe?
Or the ones that refused to accept any more persecution, stood up for themselves saying “enough is enough. This is where we stand. And fight. And if need be, die.”
Which Jews do the ‘secularists’ want us to follow? The ones that were nearly exterminated, or the ones that have carved out a haven of security for their civilisation?
Secularist is not an expletive. ‘Secularist’ is. I hope you understand why that particular creature is held in suspicion and contempt.
@ HHBB and others trying to show the reality,
You can only do the best you can to educate and activate people to act and that’s all you can do. In this post I will use the term “p-secs” (pseudo-secularists) instead of the term “secularists”.
Let me ask you two questions:
1) Do you really think, despite the amount of scriptural information available publicly now a days, and the enormous circumstantial evidence spanning 1400 years of human history, clearly implicating the scriptural sanction within Islam for untold and continued human misery (both for Muslims and Hindus), these p-secs will see reality?
2) Do you really think these p-secs are dumb and they don’t know what is in store for them and their future generations once demographically Hindus are reduced to less than 60% of India’s population?
They understand everything and most of them realize that a do-or die conflict with an absolutist system like Islam is inevitable.
BUT,
They are p-secs because-
(i) Acknowledging the problem would mean that THEY will have to do something about it.
(ii) Agreeing to your arguments would mean they will have to start supporting Hindutva, which, for whatever reason they have managed to explain themselves, is a “step-down” from their moral superciliousness.
(iii) Most importantly, they will have to tell themselves that whatever logic they have been using to fool themselves was wrong. The older they are, the harder that will be.
So, instead of wasting your time trying to convince these guys,
a)Just try to activate people who realize the threat perception, and would want to be part of the effort to mitigate and ultimately remove it.
b)Reduce the effectiveness of the p-secs in the socio-political sphere, so that their obduracy to commit suicide affects lesser and lesser people.
Many people want to do something but don’t know how they can help, besides voting.
It is important that you offer them relatively law-abiding options to do things.
RSVP: HHBB
I have unresolved questions and I do hope GB doesnt mind coz we are not exactly warring(if there is such a word) it out. We are trying to come to a respectable solution like the current West Bengal Government and Mamata Banerjee over the Singur issue(By the way GB whats ur take on that?).
I respect you have done a lot of research on the history of what had crestfallen on whom and was inflicted by whom,and I believe every word you say, meaning I believe every instance of Islamic ravagery on Hindus and other sects.My belief is that we Hindus have equally contributed in the animosity that prevails between the two religions,either in violent acts of frenzy or in strategies. Feelings have been reciprocated over the years.Events have taken place which should not have taken place in a civilized society.
But that is all past,is it not.And maybe it is the future as well,as you say you still find them in the newspapers,on TV.
But,I ask you,by forming conclusions and by embedding these feelings in ourselves(we are the present generation remember)shall we sow the seed of the same in the future as well?
HHBB you are very knowledgeable,your factual enlightenment on this topic proves that even if you feel I am sarcastically flattering you.You know what has transpired more than I do, You certainly think it is the same even now,which to a certain extent I dont agree with.Things are changing (look at the Pak Governments India policy theoretically,even though intentions might not reflect that,at least it is better than the previous years when it was blatantly out in the open),it will take time to come to a plane.Dont you feel if we continue this morbid feeling of mutual reproach it can ever end,this vicious cycle of hatred?
To me,in questions of religious brutality,neither the past nor the present has any base for me.Doesnt mean I am taken a blind turn to what took place,but surely I acknowledge what we did as well and eagerly hope for a brilliant future,where this debate between you,me,Mamoo and Matt will be rendered impotent.
What say?
GB,
Just curious to know your stand on the issue. In most of ur posts that I have come across (reg this topic), I feel u have only highlighted the symptoms , but what about the root cause ? have u already posted something on it ?
And coming to the solutions, I feel nobody has a perfect, feasible solution..But still… what’s urs?
@Hujur – I must say you sound very much like a man who’s possessed with a cause, figured out some reasons for his beliefs (“threat perception” says it all) and has a plan to put into action against “them”. Isn’t that a very Jehadi way of thinking ? Have you become one – under a different flag ?
What gives you the right to deride someone else’s beliefs then ? Because you cannot see or feel or associate with the same reasons, its “pseudo”, eh ? Can I, similarly, be justified in tagging you pseudo-religious, or pseudo-national, or even pseudo-civilized or pseudo-human ?
You’re almost trying to create hardline camps with a vengeance, and put us all in a with or against bucket. What if I do not ascribe to the start blacks and whites ? Oh then I must be defeated. Thats how your democracy and concept of civilization works.
All scriptures were written at different times, in various contexts, and the texts may turn out to be politically incorrect for the current times. Islam grew in a harsh, strife torn part of the world, and the reference to the sword and blood aren’t that surprising. Rajput history looks at a lot of it as valour. Hardly implies we all go around hacking people for every perceived slight. Why should one assume things literally in the current context and catigate a people who might not necessarily subscribe to each letter as you perceive it.
Trust me, if I assume you follow/abide by everything mentioned in our religious books merely because you’re Hindu, I could assign a lot many nasty qualities to you as well. Of course, Hindu texts have developed over ages together and very different philosophies ensure that there is not necessarily a singular truth. And no hardlines. That itself is extremely un-Hindu.
But anyhow, why am I trying to explain all this. All I wanted to say is, dude, develop some sense of respect for others’ pov without immediately stooping to name-calling if you want a decent, civil argument.
Else, carry on, convince yourself.
@ Sameer
I have come across this argument before, from other people in this forum. Do you think that the Nazis and the Allies are equally responsible for the deaths and destruction in World War II ?
Cause – Effect, do you ever distinguish between them? That is why it is so important to analyse the roots of conflicts.
That is the reason why people like Rishi Khujur have written tomes in this forum….
And oh, where did I write anything about “hacking people”?
Hujur, What you said is true. No use trying to explain sensible things to people who are committed to not seeing it. (it is also the first and the most explicit sign of the disease called pseudo-secularism). Constructive nation building is the way out of this quagmire.
Here is something that might inspire you to get kick-started. Maybe something abhinab and Sameer will find to be hate propoganda 🙂
Click to access terrorismpresentation.pdf
It is a compilation of what has been happening in India. A kind of ready reckoner, if you need one.
Read and act. 🙂
abhinab, RB & Sameer,
I’ve noted your recent points. They have been raised by others numerous times before on this blogsite. And they have been answered many times by me on this blogsite. I will not repeat what I have already done, ad nauseum.
I will raise a question to you on your quid pro quo fairytale version of Hindu-Muslim relations. Let us take just five facts from the rich and tolerant Islamic tapestry :
1. During his massacres through the Hindu countryside, Timur-I-Leng is reputed to have massacred 300,000 defenceless, civilian Hindus. Fact or fiction?
2. After Vijayanagara fell, there was a systematic slaughter unleashed for 3 days in the city of Hampi. It was then destroyed, brick by brick, building by building, for SIX MONTHS. The world’s greatest city was reduced by fanatics to a heap of rubble in half a year. Fact or fiction?
3. Akbar, that paragon of true Islamic tolerance, decapitated 30,000 defeated, demoralised, SURRENDERED Rajputs after the fall of Chittor. Fact or fiction?
4. In Pakistan, the pre-partition population of Hindus was 35%. Today it is 0.6%. Fact or fiction?
5. In 1971, Pakistan massacred a minimum of 500,000 completely innocent Hindus in Bangladesh. This may be as high as 2,500,000. Fact of fiction?
Now, you wish to claim that Hindus too are responsible for abominable crimes against Muslims. Please list any Hindu crime, to match ANY of the above?
No? I’ll make it easy for you. Please mathc ANY Hindu crime to match even 5%, JUST FIVE PERCENT, of the above magnitude?
i. So for Timur, show me just ONE instance of a Hindu massacre of 15,000 defenceless Muslims in one man’s campaign of conquest.
ii. For Hampi, show me ONE Muslim city razed by Hindus in a spree of 9 days.
iii. For Akbar, show me where HIndus have slaughtered 1,500 surrendered Muslim foes. By Shivaji. By the Peshwas. By the Jats. No?
iv. For Pakistan, show me ONE province in India where the pre-partition population of Muslims has fallen. By 10%. By 5%. By 0.1%. The amazing feature is, even after the so called ‘exodus’ of Muslims, the overall popoulation of Muslims in India has at leats TRIPLED !!!
v. In Gujarat, 750 Muslims died. In retaliation of burning alive 55 innocent Hindus, including children and women. Not exactly the same as the systematic holocaust of possible 2.5 million Hindus in 1971.
750
2,500,000
Do you still claim that Hindu crimes, even those committed in the heat of retaliation, are REMOTELY close to that of Islam?
You are trying to equate the Jew with the Nazi. The only people believing it are yourselves.
Anyway, I await your answer on my 5 question challenge above.
“Now, you wish to claim that Hindus too are responsible for abominable crimes against Muslims. Please list any Hindu crime, to match ANY of the above?”
Nopes, I do not wish to claim that. But your train of thought will ensure we get there. I would like to believe that the “Hindu way of life” has made me more assimilative, open minded and enduring across ages and philosophies. To me, you wish to change that, and you threaten Hindu philosophy more than external threats can.
What is this, a “but he hit me first, and harder” kids’ fight ? Does ot matter, since we’re all committing to a future battle by taking such stands.
I’ve got a name which somehow sounds Muslim to fellow Bangaloreans, and I assure you there *is* discrimination – I’ve personally had trouble renting hoouses because while I “met their criteria”, I’d rather not do business with those who would not give me a house purely based on religious denomination. [ Vegetarianism I could understand – and some kinder people explained it like that ]. I’m not saying that the faults lie with “us”, not “them” (in fact to me, personally, the whole us/them thought process is a little painful), nor am I singing paeans for the “fairytale version of Hindu-Muslim relations” as you put it – I’m not blind whatever else I might be. All I’m saying is that its a two way street – everyone has anxiety, perceived hurts, angst, frustrations – and you cannot have the kind of unidimensional, one-sided pov that one sees a lot in the harder lines that are being drawn and promoted.
But then, of course, I’m a “pseudo-secularist”, and you can smirk and ignore what I say.
Also, “You are trying to equate the Jew with the Nazi.”
Sorry – completely lost you there. Was merely referring to the process of creating a demon (a community/sect/race/whatever) and directing all latent frustrations, angst, misgivings, doubts towards that. Eventually the arguments start sounding correct as you “go after them”. The silent majority stays out of the way, at best, and aids n abets, at worst. Thats the “find our own Jews” analogy laid out in b&w, if you will. Dunno how that compares them with Nazis.
Sorry, re-read your post – the 750 vs 2.5 mill comparison is in horrible taste. Are you trying to say Gujarat was “revenge” for 1971 ? Are you also trying to – by extension – justifying the frequent bombings as acts of revenge ? Is that sustainable, and more importantly, a decent path for civilization ?
I think your mind is at war, and will find enemies where misunderstanding exists, and create them.
Greatbong,
Can we expect a post from you about the Hindu terrorists – VHP, BD, etc and their crimes being committed by Christians in India right now?
*i meant crimes being committed AGAINST christians
@ Sameer
Its so funny 🙂
You brought up moral equvalence.
Then HHBB expanded on it, you quickly backtracked because you realize that trying to establish moral equivalence only increases the culpability of Islam.
…. and you are back to generalization and bland paens.
[edited out]
@ HHBB
We can only hope that these psecs are as ineffective in playing aplogists for the Jihadis, as the “Chetniks” were in playing apologists for the Nazis.
GB adds: I have said this before and say it again. This comment section shall be used for discussion and debate but *not* for declaring manifestos of conversion or whatever you think is necessary for the world to function. This is not a limitation on your freedom of expression—you are free to express such opinions elsewhere. Just not here where by virtue of it being my blog, I decide whats on it. Thank you.
@ mansi
Was that a freudian slip? 🙂
Ask the Catholic church of Mangalore. They are fully supporting the VHP in their struggle to contain the poison spread by the Evangelists.
@ mukti
By “struggle” you mean burning churches, beating up people, etc? Has VHP heard of struggling by lawful means or is that too much to ask from them? And how is their so called struggle any less “poison” than what the Evangelists are spreading? IMO VHP is spreading more poison about Hinduism through their actions than the evangelists.
@mukti i guess you’ll read what you want to. I can hardly help that. I still hold a “moral equivalnce” since that is not hinged on numerical analysis of death tolls and the like. I have no reason to backtrack etc, and I’m no apologist for anyone, Muslim or otherwise. All I wish is for people to leave their affiliations aside when they see and dissect crime, especially one of such proportions. To me, I’m neutral, you’re not. To me the SIMI and concept of Jihad is as disgusting as the dream of the “Hindu Rastra” and the goonism that goes along with it. I’m a little sick of religion as practiced – in collectives and primarily as a tool *against* the other, not for one’s spiritual needs. But then, I guess we’re talking at different planes. El simplo.
Sorry I did not impress you with my “bland paens” – it was not my intent in the first place.
[edited]. I regard my kind of broad minded thought to be enabled by Hindu philosophy and to me, the parochial voices that seek to fight crusades against those who differ are irritating. Of course, my belief system and faith is a personal thing that is not threatened by external “threats” = and I have no need to identify as part of a large group and necessarily subscribe to its every letter. Thats what makes me Hindu, I think.
GB adds: Sameer, I removed a part of Mukti’s comment and a part of your comment that was in response to it.
@ Sameer,
1) HHBB and others come up with facts and reality. In reply, you come up with personal opinions, wishful thinking and day-dreams.
Well… That’s fair enough. 🙂
2) May I request you to give me your comments on this article on the New Delhi massacre:
“The Holy Text and Terror”
http://www.gurumurthy.net/articledisplay.pl?2008-09-18
3) Since you mentioned Hindu philosophy, which of the 6 Orthodox Hindu philosophies or the 3 Heterodox Hindu philosophies are you talking about here?
@ abhinab,
I will try to answer your sincere questions (that you posed to Mamoo Mastana) and at the same time, in order to steer clear of violating this blog’s policies, I will be using euphemisms and cryptic references. So, please forgive me if my language sounds curt or sarcastic, since that is not my intention here.
First of all, you admit in your own words that the “[Qur’an] verses, doctrines and attitudes are hateful.” That’s the first step and I admire your honesty in admitting so, my friend.
For your satisfaction, I won’t dwell in the distant past or revisit the historic details of the 1400 bloody years (and ongoing) of Jihad waged by “Arabian Totalitarian Imperialism” explicitly to spread the influence of the Qur’an worldwide, not just in the Indian subcontinent (which HHBB has so eloquently described in many comments).
I am [temporarily] willing to forget that over the last 1400 years, 270 Million Kafirs have been killed (in the biggest, relentless holocaust known to humanity) as a result of the political doctrine of “Arabian Totalitarian Imperialism”.
I am willing to [temporarily] forget that … Out of this death toll of 270 Million Kafirs, there were 80 Million Hindus massacred, 60 Million Christians murdered, 10 Million Buddhists killed and 120 Million Africans slain by the blessed hands of “Arabian Totalitarian Imperialism” for resisting religious conversions and religious slavery.
For the sake of this argument, I am even willing to go your route and have selective amnesia by [temporarily] putting aside and forgetting all the massacres that caused millions of Kafirs’ deaths during the last century (1900-2000 CE).
To summarize, I will delude myself into thinking that we have nothing to learn from history and we have nothing to fear (especially the clear and present danger to India from “Arabian Totalitarian Imperialism”) and that we wrongly assume that “Those who forget their past will soon have no future”.
@ abhinab,
So, now that I have removed a big obstacle from our mutual discussion, lets consider only this latest century, of which we are today in the 8th year (2008). I will even forget the most spectacular Jihadi massacre of this century – in which 3000 civilians were massacred on September 11, 2001. I am willing to foolishly ignore even this 9-11 massacre for the sake of peace and I admit I am willing to bury my ostrich-like head in the sand, when faced with danger.
Let’s pretend to start our history from the very next day – September 12, 2001.
But just in the last seven years (from September 12, 2001 to September 12, 2008) , “something” has inspired not just a few attacks in a few countries… but that “something” has inspired nearly 12,000 separate Jihadi attacks in over 100 countries. Could that “something” be the aforementioned verses of hate? You think about it and tell me.
All these various Jihadis attacks (11,888 attacks and counting) have led to hundreds of thousands of deaths of innocent civilians across every single continent. If you need the details of every single one of these attacks from 2001 through 2007, all the details have been neatly archived in this website below (scroll to the very bottom for the Annual Archives)
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com
For example: During just last month (August 2008), “something” inspired 205 Jihad attacks in 21 Countries against civilians of 5 Religions, leaving 1102 Dead Bodies and 1811 Critically Injured.
Could that “something” be the aforementioned verses of hate? Once again, my friend, you think about it and tell me.
After all this Empirical Evidence presented before you, should we still keep clutching at straws and reassure ourselves that everything will be fine and dandy, if we ignore the warnings of history?
If I deliberately white-washed out 1400 years of our history and I pretended that we are starting on a clean slate in Islam-Kufr relations, will that stop the Halal-killings of my fellow Hindus?
Should we just listen to your naïve, escapist day-dreams and deny the theological roots of Jihadi terror?
@Hujur No – not at all – sure, there are theological roots – and we need to help Islam reform. We also need to ensure Hinduism does not slide down the same path. But the severely combative stance that comes across in posts like yours is a serious impediment – if you start by putting an entire people in the dock you have little hope of being able to help them improve their pov or position. Sure, I could be wrong and merely “day-dreaming” about this possibility – but I’d personally rather do that than consider the alternative thats hinted at – elimination of the people, faith en masse. Is that what you’re suggesting ? What other solution do you have ? How exactly does one move *ahead* ? Or does one stick to oh-man-they-killed millions forever ? The Japs could’ve continued to do that for the nukes, and the Sikhs for ’84 – but they’re positive, pragmatic people who have looked ahead, and managed to make it work for themselves. The shame, apology and change of heart comes automatically from the other side after a while.
But of course, you’d argue that Islam forbids that, and all Muslims blindly follow the letter from centuries ago, and that won’t happen, so looking forward is just not possible. If thats the premise, daresay this is a line of thought that feeds on itself and merely exists to perpetuate itself – not a solution of any sort.
As for the “facts” I’m sure the other other side has a convenient enough set too, equally stark and equally compelling. I just finished reading a story in the Outlook (which, of course, is “pro-muslim” and “pseudo-secular”) about the travails the Muslim community is going through. One *could* read that *against* the Hindu society if one wanted to – but to me its just one side of the story. I have stopped paying too much attention to the “facts” my kids use against each other when they fight – and I do the same in these discussions. A lot many facts are dug up to support one’s own hypothesis, and a lot many do not even register. Homo Sapiens as a species are bloody, offensively defensive (they wiped out all the others pretty early) but at the same time have tried battling these instincts to “civilize” themselves over time.
Nobody’s denying that a large number of people who claim to follow “true Islam” get brainwashed enough to participate in violent, mindless destruction. But to see sinister motive the execution of which spans a gazillion years and involves most, if not all followers of the faith seems very conspiracy-theoryish to me. Thats ok – such points of view have always existed. The somewhat popular resonance some of these theories have found in the Indian middle class is scary. Its almost a witch hunt where the “other” is pure evil and black, and we’re the completely good guys. That kind of a view saddens this “day dreamer”.
Philosophy – hmm – I’m sure you’ve formally studied it – I haven’t. I was referring to the distilled experiences and thought processes I’ve seen around me, picked up from life, the stories I hear from parents, the books I’ve read, etc. To me India has endured because of its flexible, assimilative nature. All thats rigid dies out, eventually. Those that aren’t adapt, change, endure. Every group of settlers who came into India of course brought in new ideas – both positive and negative – but numerous of those settled here, and became very “Indian” if you will – in tongue, taste, culture. The huge differences that exist across are another example of how multiple views, thoughts and ideas have always been very welcome in this part of the world – unlike most others. The threat to this is worrying to this dreamer.
@Hujur:@HHBB
That was illuminating,I dont want to comment on this sordid topic any more.We are going on with this endlessly.The figures that you present must be true,and in all probability are true.
But the basic premise of my debate has been idealistic and not factual,What they have done they have done.What we have done might not be even 5% of what they have done,but they are a part of History.
I will,though, say this.It is a personal decision to live in the past,for you, for me.Holding grudges against what did transpire again is a personal decision.I, and millions of people like me will neglect the past,and there will be millions like you who would not.It is important in my opinion to know the history,where I lacked and you showed the way(thanks for that),but to draw inferences based on that,is something I wont ever do.There again,might be a different point of view.It is futility you trying to change my opinion or me trying to change yours.So long.
@Abhinab:
“But the basic premise of my debate has been idealistic and not factual,What they have done they have done.What we have done might not be even 5% of what they have done,but they are a part of History.”
.
“I, and millions of people like me will neglect the past,and there will be millions like you who would not.”
.
I don’t understand this at all. What is this accusation of “living in the past? “Are you saying that the attacks happened in past and so let’s ignore them.
Fair enough — but didn’t Hujur just point out that it’s NOT in the past — it’s very much the present. He even ignored all the violence BEFORE 9/11. The bomb blasts in Ahmedabad, Delhi and elsewhere are not distant past, they are happening as we type.
.
But then again, as you said, you will stick to your ‘views’ irrespective of any evidence presented to you!
.
Peace!
@ Sameer
Interesting….have you wondered if the distilled information that you are passing off and relying upon as “Hindu Philosophy” could just be “Nehruvian secularism” ?
@ Abhinab
Thanks for the comment. We don’t have to agree on the way to go about securing India’s future. It is fine if you feel the way you feel, despite the progressively compounding threat that our future generations face.
Our effort was just to present the reality and facts and eventually start a discussion on how we can deal with them in the most prudent and effective manner.
We have tried doing that in the past in this forum too.
I really hope that in a small way, the facts/detailed information presented helps people “think”, and open up their mind to the bigger picture, something not often shown on the regular media outlets.
If you feel that you would be interested to discuss and participate in non-invasive ways to help this scenario, do write to me; Arnab has my email id.
@Hujur Could be, though again, I dislike borrowed tags. I have not studied Nehru’s works or thoughts in detail. I am not basing my thoughts on any volume of knowledge that I’m “passing off” as this or that. I have independently thought about these, having lived in a truly cosmopolitan place like Jamshedpur, and having traveled across the country and loved the variety it has to offer. Sure lots of parts have been ugly too, but then its a pretty full plate. Nehru etc did not have much of a role to play in what I’ve experienced, and if you say he thought along these lines, thats alright with me.
look all of the above is right in its place..but as true indians lets focus on more important issues in life:
1) did sachin score another century? been a while no?
2) did shahrukh and salman make amends yet?
3) what is net worth of ambani brothers at right now?
True Indian,
I dreamt about Katrina Kaif yesterday. And me a married man not too shy of 30!!
Shocking! And highly pleasurable as well !! 🙂
Well, at least I’m a lot better than the comedian who said “When you’re single, all you can see are … couples. And when you’re in a relationship, all you can see are … hookers!”
@ Sameer & Abhinab,
In case the ramifications of the unfolding scenario are not yet clear to you, the Jihadi bomb-blasts and riots are a roaring continuation of the 1400-year war against India – an ongoing war that will culminate in the Islamization of what’s left of Hindustan – Unless YOU can stop it. If you would like to preserve a cosmopolitan India, you need to step up to the plate and walk the talk.
Already the demographic battle is underway and should give you shivers down your spine. As of today, 33% of the Hindu population in the Indian-subcontinent have been forced to Arabize and bow down to Mecca, and treat India as a “Dar-ul-Harb”. How much longer have we got before the rest of the Hindus completely put their hands up, surrender and go the same route? Another 20 years? We are living on borrowed time.
What kind of India would you be bequeathing to your children? An Islamic Caliphate of India? Where Sharia and Fear reign supreme? Where we all turn into brainwashed Bedouin-wannabes? Where all women will wear the Burqa? Where men dream of driving truck bombs into 5-star hotels, as a religious ticket to an X-rated Heaven?
Do you think a cosmopolitan India can consequently survive, by merely wishing upon it? Or do you believe that some kind of divine miracle is going to save our necks? Is there a better way of escaping your responsibilities? Do you have it in you – to think, act and resist the creeping Islamization of India?
@Sameer,
I would like to recommend two publications by V.S.Naipaul, who incidentally is the only other person of Indian origin to have won the Nobel Prize for Literature, after Rabindranath Tagore.
Naipaul’s most recent book, titled “Beyond Belief: Islamic Excursions Among the Converted Peoples”, is dedicated to his wife, the well-known Pakistani journalist Nadira Alvi.
This latest book “Beyond Belief” follows up on Naipaul’s first book, “Among the Believers: An Islamic Journey”. Both books provide a deeper insight into the phenomenon of Islam and its aftermath, through extensive interviews in Pakistan, Iran, Indonesia and Malaysia.
In “Beyond Belief”, V.S. Naipaul quotes Salman, a Pakistani journalist, who gives us this profound insight into the Muslim psyche in the Indian sub-continent:
“We have, nearly all sub-continental Muslims, invented Arab ancestors for ourselves. Most of us are Sayeds, descendants of Mohammed Himself, through his daughter Fatima and cousin and son-in-law Ali. There are others–like my family–who have invented a man called Salim al-Rai. And yet others who have invented a man called Qutub Shah. Everybody has got an ancestor who came from Arabia or Central Asia … If you read Ibn Batuta and early travellers you can sense the condescending attitude of the Arab travellers to the converts. The invention of Arab ancestry soon became complete. It has been adopted by all families. If you hear people talking you would believe that his great and wonderful land was nothing but wild jungle, that no human beings lived here.”
Wherever Naipaul goes, he finds two features very prominent. One is that the converts are trying to erase their past; the second is that though they were once victims of an aggression, they are now all for the aggressor, for the Arabs. Whether in Iran, Pakistan, Indonesia and India, their fundamental rage is against the past, against history, and all this accompanied with the “impossible dream of the true faith growing out of a spiritual vacancy.”
The “convert” is more than a descriptive name. It has become an important concept. Though on one side it stands for aggression, on the side of victims, it stands for self-alienation, for estrangement from one’s own people–a more important component of the concept. The converts have a special psychology. They became converts under great pressure; but subsequently they solve the problem by pretending that their conversion was voluntary. Their forefathers were defeated and humiliated; but they overcome this feeling by identifying themselves with the victors and the aggressors. Even after conversion the pressure continues; they try to prove they are more loyal than the king himself; they become ardent champions and standard-bearers of Islam.
Consequently, there is a perfectly peaceful way of stopping this Jihad madness in the Indian subcontinent. There is something very non-violent (‘ahimsavadi’) that you, me and every Indian can do effortlessly to get these Bedouin-wannabes to introspect.
And from my personal experience, this unique solution works well to address the problems of terrorism and eliminate the root cause of Jihad hitting India again and yet again.
[edited]
Must read
While Shivraj Patil was changing his “bandhgallahs”
http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=256&page=4
Thanks
Sunil
Hujur, it took Sameer 20 posts to acknowledge the Islamic problem. It will take him 20 posts to undertsand what you are saying. He seems to think that you are trying to rekindle the Muslim’s Arabic ancestry, because he didnt even read your mail.
[Edited]
@Maitreyi I dunno what led to *that* conclusion. No I have not acknowledged any “Islamic” problem etc. I have also not misinterpreted Hujur’s words to mean that he’s “trying to rekindle the Muslim’s Arabic ancestry” – quite the contrary. I have indeed read through his posts in detail, so please pardon my saying that, again, you read what you want to read.
Just out of curiousity guys, what do you feel should the government do to make sure these blasts/ other terrorist activities are not repeated, particularly considering that these terrorists are anyway willing to give up their lives for their cause, meaning that even the death penalty is not a deterrent for them?
Sameer, Even I read the post you wrote in response to Hujur (that was eventually removed). Maitreyi is right. It did come across that you did not understand Hujur’s intention of rekindling the pre-Islamic Hindu pride amongs the Muslims of India (almost 99% of whom are children of forced converts
@Kannan What part of it ? I clearly refer to it when I say “you really think pointing out to people what they are right now stinks and what they were was glorious will encourage them to embrace it ?” They are == Muslims/arabic/Whatever. They were == “noble Hindu forefathers” which I refer to in trms of the glorious part. I certainly do not think that I can get a positive response out of you by pointing fingers saying “chee – you’re horrible now, why don’t you go back to being what you were before your ancestors decided to become this horrible thing?” Not working, IMO.
Hello,
While we have been debating over whether “educated” and “moderate” Muslims believe and/or abet terrorism or not, an esteemed Muslim educationist has succintly answered the question for us.
Thanks.
Jamia to use taxpayers’ money to defend terrorists
Sidharth Mishra | New Delhi
VC succumbs to Islamist pressure: Guilty of misconduct?
The decision of Jamia Milia Islamia to defend Delhi serial blast accused Mohammed Shakeel and Zia-ur-Rahman would amount to misuse of public funds. There is no provision under the funding rules promulgated by the University Grants Commission under which a university/college can defend an employee or student booked for a criminal act. “The decision of Jamia Vice-Chancellor Mushirul Hasan is most unfortunate as the public funds would be used to defend somebody who is being booked for waging war against the nation,” said a UGC official.
The claim made by the Jamia Vice-Chancellor that the university being an autonomous body was well within its rights to take decisions on such matters has come to be questioned. Within hours of suspending two students who were arrested in connection with the Delhi serial blasts, Mushirul Hasan declared on Monday night that the university would defend its students in court.
While releasing funds to the universities/colleges, UGC issues guidelines on how the expenses have to be made from these funds. The executive head of the institutions that is the Vice-Chancellors in the case of the universities and Principals in the case of the colleges are made responsible for the expenditure of the funds in accordance with the guidelines. If the expenses are not made according to the guidelines it amounts to financial misconduct.
In cases where the guidelines are silent, the General Financial Rules (GFR) of Government of India have to be followed. It’s a practice that an officer from one of the Central financial services is posted to the Central universities as Financial Adviser to monitor the expenditure of the public funds. “In the name of autonomy, the university cannot promote subversive activities,” said a senior intelligence official.
There is provision for legal expenses in the universities under non-recurring budget. But these expenses have to be made where the university/college has been made a party. These cases generally relate to the civil and service matters. If a principal/head has been booked for a criminal case or in civil matter, he has to arrange for his own defence. “When Zakir Hussain College lecturer SAR Gilani faced a similar case, he arranged for his own defence. He was suspended from the service till he was declared innocent,” said a Delhi University official.
Claiming that Jamia’s reputation was at stake, Hasan had said in a statement, “The university feels morally bound to defend its students until proven guilty and we will use the legal apparatus for this.” Mohammad Shakeel, a student of MA (Economics) and Zia-ur-Rehman, a student of final year BA (Pass), were suspended by the Vice-Chancellor on Monday but soon thereafter he succumbed to the pressure of Islamist elements on the campus announcing the decision to defend the subversives.
@Sameer:
I happened to read Hujur’s and your posts as well before they were deleted. I don’t think you got what he meant — he never implied that Indian Ms are ‘horrible, abominable creatures’ (as you seem to have interpreted). He just said that Indian Ms (at least, majority of them) are Indians, with Indian forefathers and haven’t migrated from the Arab peninsula, nor are they descended from the Prophet. Unfortunately, they (at least, a substantial number) sincerely seem to be believing in that and consequently, look down upon India as ‘Dar-ul-Harb’ (and what not, much like the Al Berunis of the past), especially, when compared to the ‘ideal land’ — Saudi. Till they stop identifying with the Arab culture and recognize and acknowledge (and hopefully, take pride, at some point in future) in their Indian roots, the problem will just keep getting worse.
.
Anyways, as Maitreyi said, you are free to ‘understand’ (read ‘misinterpret’) whatever you deem fit.
.
Sorry GB, please delete this if this has violated your comment policy.
@Yuyutsu – please trust me when I say I got that – and was just trying to point out that people do NOT take kindly to be pointed at and “lectured” about their “flaws” especially if the latter is something that only the lecturer believes in or agrees with. Thats pretty much a non-starter if one’s trying to be convincing or market an idea (not that I necessarily agree with the idea, but was commenting on the method of the proposed solution in this case).
Sure, I exaggerated a bit – but that was primarily to highlight how it’ll come across to the other party. You can hardly expect a patient hearing or any kind of trust with that sort of an approach.
And what makes you so sure they en masse associate with ‘Arab culture’ ? Thats itself more or less an accusation to start with. Should one assume, by virtue of our faiths, that we identify with the strict caste system and hierarchy ? Again, try not to get the other bloke completely slighted and/or on the defensive if you aim to get them to rethink things.
Ah quoting Naipaul in support of Hindutatva agenda, but did anyone care to read A house for Mr Biswas, A million Mutinies or An area of Darkness to know what his feelings are about the “tolerant” Hindu culture and the idea of India in general?
Btw, I can quote Pankaj Mishra on Hinduism and say, hey look at all those evil people who burned women on pyres and treated 80% of their co-religionists like shit, now they are talking about historic wrongs. Debates on internet are fun as one can pull stuff out of places where sun doesn’t shine and pass oneself off as an “expert”.
Religion sucks, answer to one religious nut is not another religious nut. Secular democracy, guaranteeing equal rights to everyone, justice for everyone, sounds like too much to ask in India today.
@spark Bingo! But I’ll not kill hope yet, right away.
@ Sameer Spark
Ya’all are back to moral equivalence.
Do you guys live near the beach?
Your head seems to be wayyy below the sand, guys. Did you know that India is “secular” only because of Hindus?
@ Hujur, HBBB and party
Why dont you guys actually spend the time and intellect you are wasting here, doing the real thing.
Just in this blog you guys wasted atleast a dozen hours trying to convince the proverbial “ostriches” with your megatons of knowledge and analysis and facts.
Did u get anything out of it?
@ketki,
Really!!! India is secular because of Hindus??? Forgetting the stuff about what (rather than Who) exactly is a Hindu, let me ask you this, do you think that the geographic entity called India today would have come into existence if the constitution of India proclaimed that India is a “Hindu” nation? Were the people of people who drafted our constitution stupid/Anti-“Hindu”? Don’t you find find it amazing that people who didn’t had anything whatsoever to do with freedom movement (RSS, Savarkar et al.) today proclaim to be the biggest patriots? Patriots who don’t believe in the law of the land and Indian constitution btw.
If you don’t find any of this ironic, then let me just say this to you debates on internet never changed someone’s opinions, people anyway have formed their opinion beforehand.
PS: If possible try to read the local newspapers of Kanpur where two Bajranj Dal activist died while making bombs and the Kanpur SP exclaimed that they had enough explosives to blowup the whole Kanpur. This happened on 24th August this year.
@ketaki While I would not be bashful enough to presume that the secularist ideal is the preserve of Hindu thought alone, I totally agree that Hindu philosophy does help in upholding and creating a great atmosphere for it. Thats a good thing, isn’t it ? Shouldn’t we try to keep it that way ? I’m not sure I get the Ostrich refernce – is it because I don’t buy into your “truths” ? C’mon – being Hindu – you should know how to be less unfair than that.
You’re right, I usually avoid getting into internet debates – cause the participative web represents a very thin slice, a v lopsided view of things. Somehow – something irked the conscience this time. Time well spent ? Dunno. Good to see there are at least a few on this side of the fence as well.
@ sparks
Hindu Mahashabha, Savarkar had nothing to do with freedom movement?
Cellular jail (Kalapani) was Savarkar’s home for a long time. Right?
Do you know that had it not been for Shyama Prasad Mookherjee (of Hindu Mahasabha), Bengal and Assam would have been part of Pakistan? So would have been Kashmir.
And Barkha Dutt would have been wearing a Burkha .hihihihi.
@Sameer
Islam and secularism are anti-thesis of each other. Read the Koran and look at the world around you.
Hinduism essentially has secularism built into it. But if you dont protect it physically and philosophically (you have to understand both first), you will not be able to protect secularism itself.
Have you ever imagined that a Hindu Afghanistan was once secular too?
Hard to imagine, right?
Savarkar right! The apology letter written to British was part of a grand plan? Great. And how many RSS activist did jail terms under the British rule? Oh wait they were all part of a great stratagem of supporting the British in 1942, while secretly working under the wraps to destabilize the empire, Bhagat Singh, Bismil, Ashfaq Ulah-Khan were idiots to die for a principle.
“But if you dont protect it physically and philosophically (you have to understand both first),”
Physically protect a philosophy ? How ? Exactly what I asked Hujur – exactly whats the solution you propose ?
As for the latter, I do think I’m following it a little more than a lot many of my fellow citizens. I pretty much consider some of the extremist points of view taken by some outfits which claim to serve my Hindu cause very un-Hindu, but sure, it takes all kinds.
@ Sameer
Like?
@ Sameer
I read Hujur. I have to say I am more inclined to agree with him.
The very inaction that you show, in respect for the values you “claim” to uphold, will not survive if physically you dont survive.
Thats why I gave you the Afghanistan example, which you readily skipped in your response.
Honestly speaking, I find many of the actions (not all) of Hindutva groups to be much more congruent with Hindu philosphy (ies).
I somehow feel, that many people often use (shoudl i say misuse) the liberal polymorphism of Hinduism as crutches for cowardice and inaction.
@ Sparks
Lol boi…you have your history messed up.
Ram Prasad Bismil was a member of Arya Samaj, which in those days was the biggest supporter of Hindutva (even more than Hindu Mahasabha).
The Arya Samaj was responsible for helping thousands of Muslims return back to Hinduism. In fact the Indian National Congress (the leading political platform for freedom movement) under Madan Mohan Malviya and Bal Gangadhar Tilak was probably more Hindutva than VHP is today
Hujur party
Gosh.. I am falling into the same trap that u guys fell into, trying to explain history to these guys.
Time to eat some ostrich burger :)))
@ Ketaki “Gosh.. I am falling into the same trap that u guys fell into, trying to explain history to these guys”.
Yes, I know, it’s frustrating isn’t it? You will see that the ‘selective secular’ suffers from certaqin unique traits :
1. They have no arguments in their jhola. So if you counter each and every point of their’s with facts, they will move on to a new argument with breath-taking abandon.
2. Their memory span seems to be highly selective, or limited, or both. An argument thoroughly answered a few days ago, is raised again and again, ad nauseum.
I continuously highlight above that my stance against fanatocracies is not because of their 1,400 year brutal past, dripping as it is with Hindu blood. It is because this terror is brewing again. It had only subsided in the lull after they wrested vast gains in partition. It will come again. And yet you will see the same secular admonition, “HHBB, why do you hate them for the past? Why do you want revenge for the past? Why can you not forgive and forget the past?”
Grrrrrrr.
3. This deficit does not prevent from making sweeping assumptions on your behalf. Or even correlations.
When I had raised the point of Israel returning live murderors to its neighbours while receiving Jewish corpses in return, bereft of any answer at all, Hades snapped “You (HHBB) seem to be happy about it”.
I asked these selective seculars to show me a single crime comparable to Pakistan’s murder of at least 500k (at worst 2.5 million) Hindus in 1971. To make it easy for them, I asked them to divide this crime by 10, and even then compare it to the worst Hindu crime, and then judge the communities. I cited the Godhra retaliation of 750 Muslims killed, and compared it to the 2.5 million. At a total loss to find one Hindu crime even remotely close to even 10% of the 1971 massacres, one wit quipped something along the lines of “you seem to suggest Godhra is revenge for 1971 .. shame”. Hahahaha. Whatever whacky baccy they seem to be smoking, I’d like to try some one day!!
4. They are also not very honest. No fact outside scientific laws is black and white. Ever. It is always a mixture of black and white. But from the relative degrees of black and white, in most cases, conclusions can be easily drawn. So a 99% black slate is .. black, irrespective of the 1% white. And vice versa.
Selective seculars will twist the facts so completely that they will utilise the 1% black in an otherwise white slate to call it grey, while oick the one white spot in a black slate to call it grey, and then draw a parallel.
The case of Savarkar above serves as a good example. Savarkar was a fierce freedom fighter, burning the flame of rebellion in the very heart of the British Empire, and inspiring millions by his spectacula activities (covert operations in UK, escape en route to India, horrific ordeal in Andamans, where night after night he was forced to stand abent .. can you imagine the maddening agony of his torture? Guantanamo Bay would seem like club med in comparison. And his works smoulder in the fire of inspiration.
The selective seculars have no time for these. They are angry that Savarkar used his wit to try and free himself from a living hell to enable to contribute to India’s freedon, albeit with restrictions, outside incarceration.
And Savarkar’s support of the British? I thought the RSS was supposed to be a Nazi stooge. So Savarkar is actually opposing fascism, calling on his countrymen to fight Nazism? So much so for the RSS’s ‘support’ of Nazism.
Ketaki, selective seculars have a host of other virtues, but I do nto elaborate, as I will leave for work soon.
I think you & I & Hujur persist in the debate, futile as it is, because the selective secular party wants to ‘bore us to defeat’. While certainly getting bored, we try to prove with the clear, unambiguous facts at our disposal, while they can and have certainly bored us with their lies, they cannot defeat our logic with their lies so easily.
This debate is at two completely different planes, and I see they’re completely disjoint. Some of us are not into QED analyses, and do not hold solutions hostage to history in the sense of deriving mistrust, or justification for thuggery. We want to move ahead, and the assumption has to be that the other party does too – then there’s hope for change. If you start with rigid positions, then you’re ranting, not talking about reconciliation or solutions. Thats a choice you make, not the only way.
Well, i’ve really said everything, and this is pretty much the last word. Every thought will be countered with a “dreamer/idealist/pseudo/idea-changer” label – and thats hardly a debate focused on the issue itself – so pretty pointless.
@ketki
Isn’t life so easy when you belong to Hindutatva gang, so now the polytheism abhorring, anti idol worship, Arya Samaj is also under your umbrella. Also you conveniently claimed the Lenin admiring Tilak, pretty much the same way RSS adopted commie Bhagat Singh as its poster boy. Talk about ideology!!!!!
So Pakistan army killed lots of Hindus along with lots of other East Pakistanis, so? How is that relevant to Gujrat riots/Post Babri Masjid riots/Attacks on Christians? Is Pakistan Army, Mahmud Ghaznavi, Tuglaq the parameters against which all the further riots will be measured? Oh you know what we killed less people than those guys so we should be okay. Have you read the book by V N Rai which details each and every riot post independence, read it might be useful.
Since posting links is the fad let me post one too.
http://faculty.cbu.ca/rkeshen/rkeshen2/World/hinduism.html
@spark
interesting!
So now you want to disassociate Arya samaj from Hindu revivalism. It seems you have very little understanding of the Hindutva ideology. Have you ever attended a shuddhi ceremony?
Interesting that you talk of Pankaj Mishra. Is this the same guy who lied about
Chattisingpura masacar. Are you also on Lashkar payrolls like him?
@sameer
you keep responding to hhbb and hujur in historic terms when they have clearly pointed to present events and factually pointed towards future threat perception. Looks like someone is running away from reality?
“Are you also on Lashkar payrolls like him?”
Nah am an ISI agent.
@ Spark
Actually Nibaron babu has a point, when he questions Pankaj Mishra’s intensions and connections
Afterall, that guy was promptly and pro-actively instrumental in trying to cover-up one of the largest and most ghastly massacres committed by the Jihadis (Lashkar claimed responsibility for that later after anyway) in Kashmir.
You know, this is exactly the type of thing that people like HHBB and Hujur has been pointing out.
It also seems to me that you have very little knowledge of Hindu Dharma as well.
But then one can expect more from you, anyway.
@ Spark
Hi Spark, Google up the following in conjunction with “Arya samaj”
Pt. Lekhram
Swami Shraddhanand
Shuddhi
You will see how much the modern day Hindutva movement owes, to Arya Samaj. Even today many “Ghar Vapasi” programs of VHP are jointly done with the blessings of Arya Samaj.
As for Pankaj Mishra,
He shows up at Chattisinghpura within hours of the ghastly attacks on innocent Sikhs by the Jihadis (proved later on), and brings out a scathing report attacking Indian Army for the responsibility of the massacres.
Then he continues to follow that line (with ample support from people like you ofcourse, it seems), when years later, the LET itself owns up responsibility for this ghastly work of religious cleansing in Kashmir.
Now boi, what is the next topic you are gonna jump on to?
@ HHBB
Woww…you do present your arguments real well. You are sooo right with this argument of yours
“P-secs will twist the facts so completely that they will utilise the 1% black in an otherwise white slate to call it grey, while pick the one white spot in a black slate to call it grey, and then draw a parallel”.
Brilliant. Would be great if you compile all your writings and put it somewhere for reference.
Some want to be seen to have been proven right. Some just want the crap to end. So some seek workable solutions, while the others seek to prove divide the world into good and evil, and obviously they’re (with) the good guys. Its so nice and black and white and the other side’s totally evil or nuts or crazed or whatever.
Are we all extremist, these days ?
Its not a “parallel” dears, its a completely different attitude and thought process. Its not about comparisons in my head – but it is in yours. To me, unlike what your arguments drive at – its not about scores – to assign or settle – but about a way forward.
Since we’re not even interested in the same goals, whats the big point of this discussion ? We’ll merely descend, again, into name-calling, below the belt attacks and advertising of our hardened stances. Painful, unproductive (while I contributed to it), and avoidable. You live in your world, I’ll live in mine.
“Hindu Dharma” – god! Like its one monolithic concept and some set of people can claim complete lordship of it. Do you see how much you’ve become that which you claim to despise ?
@Sammer:
“Hindu Dharma” – god! Like its one monolithic concept and some set of people can claim complete lordship of it. ”
You are bang on target my dear friend. Hinduism is not one monolithic concept and no one set of people can claim complete lordship of it. There lies its beauty and there lies its strength.
And as Hindus we need to preserve this great spititual/social tradition that uniquely stands for the ‘freedom of thought’ that you and I would vouch for.
And what threatens that in the modern world are all ‘monolithic religions or concepts which claims that there is nothing beyond one book and one man’.
Believe me, we as Hindus have lost maximum people to Islam: from Afghanistan to Indonesia. Of what remains are the people like you and me and on us lies the responsibility of preserving and prospering the Sanatan Dharma.
“Do you see how much you’ve become that which you claim to despise ?”
🙂 Fair enough. You pose the same question which Arjuna had posed in the battlefield
and which Krishna sought to address through Bhagvat Gita.
I would suggest you to go and read Bhagavat Geeta. Then you can figure out yourself .
And then we can talk again 🙂 .
@nibaron Good to see a fair, on-the-issue argument – a decent tark-vitark is possible, with your kind of style 🙂
I agree with your pov about the flexibility that Hindu thought provides being at threat – but I think its more internal than external. No “other religion” can modify a base philosophy – my take is that people of various faiths, ethnicities etc in India subscribe, to different extents, to this philosophy. Indeed, its this which has attracted so many to make it home over the centuries. Few other parts of the world have seen as many aggressors or visitors embrace the place, people and thought. This predates Islam, or any of our current identities as we know them.
I also believe that if we stay true to the core of this thought, its attractiveness will continue to hold sway. Its not about “how many people are there in my group now” (well – the numbers game is what the Sangh Parivar accuses the other side of playing!!) – but the continuity of the democratic, progressive thought, that counts. I’d claim Hindu thought has spread to a large part of the world, actually. How many subscriptions the “religion” has is not relevant. Its not even a “strict” religion in some senses of the world. If we “market” the concepts as a more abstract concept – as indeed many of our books have done – we dont need people converting in form. Its almost like the spread of democracy. The number of customs, traditions, variations within whats considered “Hindu” are so many, and so diverse – that often we’ve more in common with people of different faiths in our geographical area that with other Hindus elsewhere. Yet, the base acceptance of multiplicity, comfort with many truths, is what defines us as one.
I’d almost say – but for “acceptability” – that its possible to follow Hindu thought whether you’re Christian, or Buddhist, or follow Islam, or even Atheist. Its God-agnostic – and instead, a faith in certain ideas about deed, humanity and principles.
Codifying this by promoting one truth, identifying everyone who isn’t part of “us” as the enemy, is what’ll threaten Hindu thought. A lot of us “Hindus” have started doing this. We have started defining ourselves and our faith as narrowly as those we accuse of parochialism.
I have read the Gita – not the full text I admit – but in different forms, as I have the Upanishads, and excerpts from the Vedas. The huge differences in these books is amazing, charming and defines my Hindu thought. The Gita is not *it* – its one pov (and in a context that is not analogous to the discussion, really, as far as assumption of guilt and wrongdoing is concerned). The moment there’s absolutes, its not Hindu anymore 🙂
@Sameer, See Sameer those are some very well meaning thoughts you just wrote. Not that I am blaming you or anything, but you missed out one important point of Nibaron Babu, which I think is the crux of the whole argument from the beginning. The point being, that you can try and play all the nice tricks in the make someone (read followers of Islam) happy, BUT, when you are cleary aware and have 1400 years of history and present and future direction, clearly pointing to hate and destruction from the other side….it becomes important that you stop your dancing and prancng and get serious about protecting what you so cherish. If you have actually read Bhagavat Gita, you will probably be aware about it.
@sammer
“I agree with your pov about the flexibility that Hindu thought provides being at threat – but I think its more internal than external.”
“I also believe that if we stay true to the core of this thought, its attractiveness will continue to hold sway.”
It is often said ‘we learn from history that we learn nothing from history’. Please show me an example of ‘hindu thought’ being preserved in Afghanistan or Pakistan or Bangladesh. You wont because Islam has penetrated into the heart and minds of most people in these erstwhile Hindu lands and Islam is inconsistent with Hindu thought.
So I believe that the threat is external. And as far as the internal threat goes please try to understand the Hindutva movement in India: its origin and philosophy and then you will see why Hindutva stands for the preservation of ‘Hindu thought’. Cliched as it might sound I would strongly reccommend Sri Aurobindo and Vivekananda’s writing to bring yourself to the right perspective on Hindutva.
“The moment there’s absolutes, its not Hindu anymore ”
Exactly. Now there are beilef systems like Islam who believe in absolutes: a book and a prophet, and that is why it is genuinely a threat to Hinduism.
“I’d almost say – but for “acceptability” – that its possible to follow Hindu thought whether you’re Christian, or Buddhist, or follow Islam, or even Atheist. ”
How is it possible to follow hindu thought when you follow Islam? As I said before they are intrinsically inconsistent. One stands for everything what the other does not stand for and vice versa.
“Codifying this by promoting one truth, identifying everyone who isn’t part of “us” as the enemy, is what’ll threaten Hindu thought. A lot of us “Hindus” have started doing this. We have started defining ourselves and our faith as narrowly as those we accuse of parochialism.”
🙂 This is the same old Godelian dilemma. Let me explain it to you as a logician would do.
Person A (Sameer) believes everything is fine and dandy as long as he is fine and dandy. A believes that B and C will agree with him because A believes so.
B and C believe that A does not deserve to live becasue he is A.
B and C have shown it clearly and are still showing it by thrashing A left and right.
A dies after getting his thrashed for too long and his fine and dandy belief dies with him.
And this has what history will teach you. And thats why I asked you to read Krishna’s teachings to Arjuna at the battlefield. After that ofcourse, you are free to choose your path.
@ Sameer, Woww, your conversation with HHBB, Hujur and host of others are is almost a dumbed down version of Arjuna’s conversation with Krishna.
What you have been writing in the past 3-4 posts are very much like Arjuna’s questions to Krishna.
I find so much parallel between modern day well meaning secualrists like you (not the Teesta Setalvad type) and the moral dilemma and Dharma Sankat of Arjuna in the first Chapter of Geeta (Arjuna Vishaada Yoga)
But of course, it took Krishna 17 more chapters to distill the philosphical essence of the interaction between, the Absolute (Brahman) and the Soul (Aatman) to Arjuna before he could transcend his physical self’s cowardice
Sameer, after reading you, I find that you hardly know anything about Hinduism and use its varied philosphical tree as crutches to justify yoru rather self-defeating thought process.
@student4ever “I find that you hardly know anything about Hinduism and use its varied philosphical tree as crutches to justify yoru rather self-defeating thought process.”
I’ll takr the former as a compliment – for I truly believe that religion/my faith is a personal matter that no book can interpret for me. Its my own way of keeping a spiritual balance, and as a contemporary Guru once said, all you seek outside yourself are the crutches.
“Self-defeating” – thats merely your point of view, and I will not comment on that. My thoughts about your approach may be are similar – since I think this “our religion is in danger” battle cry can only lead down a path of self destruction, and surely the destruction of the idea you claim to protect. Strong ideas do not need protection, weak dogmas do.
For those who draw a parallel with the Gita, like I said, you’re starting with certain assumptions of the guilty and their guilt, which are presumptuous and nebulous to a neutral party. Nuff said.
@nibaron sen:
“Please show me an example of ‘hindu thought’ being preserved in Afghanistan or Pakistan or Bangladesh. You wont because Islam has penetrated into the heart and minds of most people in these erstwhile Hindu lands and Islam is inconsistent with Hindu thought.”
did i miss something there?aint India supposed to be a secular country and Pakistan and Afghanistan communal ones?how do you think the situation is comparable?
And just one thing,this goes to everyone who has been debating on this topic.Why dont we stop trying to convince each other by putting forward our opinions and progress toward an inference?People who have factually proven that Islam has been notorious on its agenda against the Hindus over the years are right on,so are people like me and Sameer who hope for a better future where religion would not define my attitude towards you.When this debate had started between me and HHBB it was revolving round whether Islam was solely responsible for the communal tension between two of the oldest religions in the world.Now it has digressed to the sayings and beliefs of the religions.Why dont we stop this.As I had commented once there would be people who would still hope,there will still be people who would not only not hope but try to pass over their ‘enlightenment’to others as well.These people will have infaliable logic,as History is with them and they have rightfully formed their views.You have had your say,now let the others have their moment of hope.
I am one of them,and after this war of words and all the facts and logic that you have put forward,I would say now I know History better.You have every right to be sceptical,
And I? I have every right still to be hopeful.Your faith cannot always be wavered by infaliable logic.Had it been so,the mere existence of God in our favourite topics of the day,”Hindutva” and “Islam”, would be under scrutiny(forget the numerous sightings), would it not?
@ Nibaron da
OMG… regarding Abhinab’s post, its a Gandhiji speech all over again, in Noakhali.
Did you see this link?
http://www.bengalgenocide.com/mughalistan.php
@ketaki:
Why should I tell you that you are someone who is not satisfied with her own opinion but out to disrespect someone else’s.
Why should I tell you that there will always be something known as a different point of view.
Why should I tell you that fundamentalists like you are the last thing this world needs?I believe that,but did I endorse my opinion on you?I did not, I didnt tell you anything 🙂
It is good to have an opinion,great if you voice it,i respect that,but remember to respect the other persons opinion as well without passing humiliating comments.
@Ketaki
Quite a site.
Towards the end of that article there’s a sentence, which I find terribly amusing.
“All Indians, secularists and nationalists alike, must act quickly.”
Secularists and nationalists! 😀
So basically this site feels that to be a nationalist you can’t be secular. Is that right?
@abhinab,
Ketaki just compared your comments to Gandhiji’s speech at Noakhali. Why do you think that is a “humiliating comment”?
Why do you avoid looking at this website?
http://www.bengalgenocide.com/mughalistan.php
@ Abhinab
Aww..Abhinab.
Let me see who is the “fundamentalist” here.
Inspite of
– overwhelming evidence, historically documented facts (as pointed out by Hujur, HHBB and others.
– scriptural sanction in the “Q” (verifiable from different sources)
– present events and very clear future prognostication based on all available past and present evidence.
You boi, are the one who clings on to a dogma, based only on your “faith” and “hope”.
And you call me fundamentalist? 🙂
Also, I did not mean to humiliate you by comparing your comments to Gandhiji’s comments (directed at hapless Hindu women being raped and then converted) during the Noakhali riots.
I should be an honor, shouldnt it?
@ Hades
http://www.bengalgenocide.com/mughalistan.php
OMG… in this entire piece, only the end part (where “secularists” and “nationalists” are urged to act unitedly), catches your eye?
No, wonder someone had to write that entire piece.
@ Hujur
No name on that article. Do you know who wrote it? Who owns that website?
@Ketaki
I just felt it ironic that the piece criticises Islamic agrression/fundementalism and then goes on to place nationalism and secularism in India in mutually exclusive silos.
If the writer of that piece can do it, why is s/he criticising the Islamists for doing it?
@ketaki:
Right,you are not a fundamentalist. Actually I am a part of Taliban and I thimk the world is like me.
What on earth do you think is happening in Karnataka now? That is your idea of Hindutwa?Or would you now pass us another link where the Christians are set on bringing India under the British crown again.Call it “English”tan,(ringing a bell?)wont they?
@ Hades
Because, as HHBB pointed out, “secularists” are actually playing into the hands of the Islamists.
Somehow, thats seems to be the feeling of the writer too.
@Abhinab
Awww…
You are exactly what the Jihadis need……on their opposite side, though 🙂
I never said you are the Taliban.
From what you write, it DOES NOT look like you follow the “Q”.
But the Taliban sure loves u, for your self delusional interpretation of what they believe in.
Karnataka seems to be doing perfectly fine…better than Bengal and Assam for sure.
Your comments on the Christian Evangelist aggression (and calling its manifestation , “Englishtan”), seems to expose your extremely childish comprehension of this whole issue.
For your information, the Anglican Church, hates the Evangelists almost as much as the Bajrang Dal does 🙂
Let me take an example to show you where you are getting confused. Maybe I’m not being clear enough.
A naxalite says he’s a nationalist.
A Bajrang Dal chap says he’s a nationalist.
Both disagree with each other, yet nobody disowns nationalism.
Similarly, if you disagree with “secularists” that doesn’t mean you give up secularism, now does it?
____________________________________________________________
@ Ketaki
oops..pardon my previous mistype
@ Hades
I understand your point. That is why I said, that the author of the article at http://www.bengalgenocide.com , seems to feel that being “secularist” in India probably, is not nationalist. He/she certainly gives his reason for that, which obviously has been the point of this entire debate.
Relax; no terrorist can match the soup we have created with the help of kind, tolerant, and infinitely fecund non-terrorists. Stampedes in temples, people dropping off local trains, annual Antarjali-jatra in the Gangetic plains and coasts, adulterated food and kidney stones and colon cancers, poisoning people by burning naptha in autos; just do the darn numbers. Any engineer worth his/her degree will discount terrorism as not being remotely near the critical path.
Must Read Article: “A Secular Protocol” by Tarun Vijay
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-3584631,flstry-1.cms
Mamoo Mastana, HHBB,
Thanks to you, I read the relevant Kandahar excerpts from L.K.Advani’s autobiography “My Country My Life”:
http://www.mycountrymylife.com/excerpts/phase-5.html
Here is my take on the Kandahar IC 814 plane-hijacking episode.
Our pseudo-secularists (Congress I) and media wanted that the 160-plus passengers and crew-members should have been allowed to be slaughtered halal-style like newly-wed Rupin Katyal and blown-up by the Jihadis (like the 59 train-passengers who were roasted like chickens by the Jihadis in Godhra), so that they could have celebrated the bloodbath.
Oh, they are saddened that 160 Indian lives were needlessly saved.
The BJP should have just let these 160 Indians die !!!
Saving the lives of 160 Indians by releasing three Jihadis was the biggest crime in the history of mankind. The BJP should be punished for that.
The BJP is damned if it didn’t, and damned if it did.