Trivial Matters

96 Comments

17 bodies of children and women recovered from one house. The owner and the servant confess to rape and murder. And how does the UP government react?

Times of India reports:

Uttar Pradesh Public Works Department Minister Shivpal Singh Yadav on Thursday raised eyebrows by describing the grisly murders of children in Noida as “small and routine incidents”.

“Such small incidents keep happening,” Shivpal said.

Yes indeed. Such small incidents keep happening. Especially to migrant workers from other states, too poor to bribe the police , too disenfranchised to have a political voice and too unlucky not to be from Mulayam (and his brother Shivpal Singh)’s caste.

From NDTV:

When Jatin and his wife had pleaded with the police to find their daughter the cops dismissed them. “Your daughter is a pretty Bengali, and an immoral woman. She must have just run away with a man,” they said to him.

Kindly note the logical consequence from “pretty Bengali” to “immoral woman” coming from a representative of the Uttar Pradesh administration.

From Rediff:

Sub-inspector Simranjit Kaur, who was looking into the case, drove down to my village Pipalia in Uttaranchal and told the village headman that my daughter (Payal) had gone to Mumbai and was happily married,” Lal, said.

And this was after Payal had already been killed.

These above are not just a few isolated voices. Each victim (and there are many) tells the same story. The very same.

That of the police protecting the killers.

Whether it is apathy, laziness, regionalism, feudalism or baksheesh from people with secrets to hide is of course open to conjecture.

So will there be any investigation into the collusion between the police and the murderers? Well according to our wise Supreme Court, no independent enquiry by the CBI is needed as “the matter was already being looked into by various agencies including Uttar Pradesh police“.

And we know how eager the UP police must be to see that justice is meted out to employees of the UP police.

Mulayam Singh has also gone on record saying that a CBI probe can be done later, presumably once the evidence has been suitably cleaned, scapegoats identified and the aggrieved intimidated.

Mind you I am not saying that the CBI is above board. It’s just that at least in this case they will certainly act more independently than the UP police.

But of course, we should not be too concerned about such trifles.

After all as the line from “Dilwale Dulhaniya Le Jayenge” goes: “Senorita, baray baray deshon main aisi choti choti baatein hote raheti hain”.

[Addendum: In more festive fun from the patriots at Samajwadi Party (the party that supports SIMI) , a tourist bus is stopped and the passengers beaten up in protest against the hanging of mass murderer and torturer Saddam Hussain.

Watch and applaud as a man in India, with blood trickling down his temple, is forced to shout “Saddam Hussain Zindabad”.

Bravo Mulayam Singh, protector of SIMI, Saddam fans and child rapists.

Picture courtesy: IBN]

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96 thoughts on “Trivial Matters

  1. a little private auschwitz
    the news channels are hinting that a few top brass of the police may have also taken part in the ‘entertainment’

    even a death sentence looks lenient for the culprits.
    a pity that they cannot be tortured to death.

  2. When I watched Hazaaron Kkhwaahishen Aisi, I reassured myself that things have changed today and India is a better country to live in.

    This news is a grim reminder to the contrary.

    I wonder if I’d really like to come back and live because states like Chhattisgarh, MP etc. are not any different from UP.

    It’s a shame that it takes collective outpouring of a nation to provide justice to high-society models, wonder what it would take this time around to mete justice.

  3. An interesting take on the subject available at:

    The above blog also says “lawyers in Noida have said that they will not defend the accused”.
    If true, it shows a very disturbing trend in the criminal justice system India in the recent past, coming on the heels of much publicized cases where lawyers have been reluctant to defend accused in the face of a rabid and populist media baying for vigilante justice. And lawyers who do speak out against this downward trend are demonised (Ram Jethmalani) by media and society.

  4. Disturbing indeed. If what Swati says is true, I can see why the the accused were let off an year ago..
    Reading such, you know its not just physical comforts that compel desis to continue living in the US (despite occasional racial slights and slurs).

  5. GB, thanks for writing about this. I have been following this story closely. I lived & worked in Noida for a few years in the late 90s, & knew this area (Sector 31) quite well. Being very close to rural UP than Delhi is, it has a strange mix of yuppies, rich businessmen, migrant workers & poor villagers. Perhaps something like this was waiting to happen. But I would hate to call this a ‘India is so backward’ thing. That only trivializes a tragedy. Yesterday I was checking a forum on ToI & it had degenerated into regional (North Indian vs rest of India), religious (Sikhs vs rest) & linguistic name-calling.

    Regarding the UP minister’s comment, that reminded me of Rumsfield’s infamous declaration of “stuff happens” about the rampant looting after Baghdad fell.

    Mukul & Shubhodeep – thank you bringing out these interesting perspectives. I was very uncomfortable about reinvestigating the Jessica Lal case (though obviously from reading the papers it seemed it was a miscarriage of justice) because deep down it seemed to be fuelled by the beauty & glamor (& pg 3 antecedents) of the principals. I was visiting India at that time, & the tv channels were competing with each other to show how much they cared. SMSs, petitions, andolans – they were all there. I hope there is some of that for the unfortunates of Noida too.

    The background of the owner of the house also raised an interesting point. Telegraph of Calcutta quoted the vice-principal of St Stephens who denied that Mohinder Pandher was ever a student there. Yesterday ToI had specific details of his Stephens record.

    Sorry about the long post…

  6. very sad … also surprised that this has been quoted as reason for not coming back to one’s motherland … very sad indeed.

  7. Trivial indeed! Don’t know what kind of warped world those morons who made these statements are living in.

    @ Giri- Disturbing indeed. Yes, the easiest way is to leave India and sit on the periphery (comforts of USA) and hope and pray all this will go away. Hope, pray, feel sorry, criticize. It surely will go away. Thats like closing your eyes and hoping no one sees you.

  8. abduction, abuse, torture, murder

    a belgian was convicted of all this. his victims were around 14 little children.

    a search of wiki will throw up the hard facts and figures, most of them from the first world. and the perpetrators are mostly caucasian.

    so all of you who think that being on the far side of the pond sheilds you from such gristly realities, no, afraid not.

    and as for vigilante style justice, this mindset comes as the mills of the indian judial system grind so slow that common people like me have lost all faith in it.

  9. “Kindly note the logical consequence from “pretty Bengali” to “immoral woman” coming from a representative of the Uttar Pradesh administration.”

    “Uttar Pradesh administration”? That’s an oxymoron! A couple of years ago, there was a political murder in Allahabad. The assassins shot at the victim, and as the bleeding man tried to escape in an auto, they chased him on bike, Hollywood style, shooting through the streets. They crossed five police stations on the way, but nobody tried to stop them. Finally they killed the man. Later it turned out that the police had even been informed beforehand that this was going to happen.
    Anyway, that is unrelated to this issue, just told it here to explain the law and order situation in UP. I don’t think anything will happen to the miscreants this time too. I would have loved if they shared their beloved Saddam’s fate though.

    @Puneet & oi: It is not fair to accuse the people living outside India of closing their eyes and hoping it will go away. What are we, the people of India, doing in this matter? And this is not the only issue which makes people want to leave this country. On a totally unrelated note check out this blog post and especially its commentspace. Sorry to bring up this unrelated topic up here, but if you check it out, you might realize why some people want to leave their beloved motherland.

  10. I used to watch all these shows on Discovery about profiles of such serial killers. It used to amaze me, the way the cops in other countries investigated such cases and nabbed the culprits. I can never imagine our cops at that level of intelligence. And you know why, smart people don’t become cops. Even if it is proved that Noida cops weren’t accomplices, it is evidently clear that they are dumb.

    Had they done some amount of serious investigation, surely they could have stopped the two during their questioning in March last year.

    This brings me to one question I’ve always asked. Before blaming the cops of being corrupt, ever gone up to a havaldar who supports a family of 5 and asked him his Salary? It’s pathetic the way our government takes care of our safe keepers. How long can one uphold his principles on an empty stomach??

  11. I believe together with the cops,the media is also to be blamed.when the adobe son was kidnapped,there was such a hue and cry for the whole thing,it was the big breaking news for the whole 2 days 24×7…..and i am sure that extensive media coverage prompted the police to act swiftly.but when it comes to 30 victims from the same nithari village,just miles away from noida,our media barons thought otherwise…of course same old stories of poor,deprived children disappearing wont boost up their trp ratings!
    the picture is exactly parallel to the khairlanji killings as compared to the jessica lal murder!
    guess just like mulayam’s brother,the media too thought it was ‘small and routine’…..who really cares about these children of lesser god?

  12. If what Swati says is accurate, there has to be some foreigners involved, perverts and pedophiles who are paying off the police to do this. In fact if I remember correctly, I once read about a poor village in Orissa where young children are peddled for peanuts to foreigners. Its a catch 22 situation – the police are corrupt but they are simply untouchable as they provide protection and are puppets in the hands of equally if not more corrupt men – politicians like Mulayam.

    Deeply disturbing ..as was the news of the murder of the s/w engg in Bangalore a few days back. And the “Saddam Zindabad” thing…..I’m spellbound.

  13. But the problem is…none of this is new….GB do you remember how the police “verified” your existance when you got your passport?? and you expect them to earn their living?? NAAH, aakhir “is desh main ganga behti hai!”

  14. Pingback: Scribbler on the Net » Blog Archive » Quit India

  15. I find it hard to believe that a minister would actually have said that. It must be a snippet from a conversation, taken out of context. It has to be. I hope.

  16. Well being a Yadav in UP is very handy coz, gundagardi comes naturally. Mind you, it’s not to target the entire community but people like Shivpal Singh Yadav are quite used to fuckin around with people’s lives….so things like the noida incident is trivial.
    The fact that the guy has the audacity to say it in front of the national media is not baffling coz it indicates ground reality in UP. If you have political and muscle power you can hold anyone and everyone with their individual or collective balls respectively.
    The two accused have been sent for narco tests hence expected to sing like a canary…wht is to be seen is how the state administration reacts after the results come in…if guilty nothing less than hangman’s noose….but still would it change administration’s general apathy…itz anyones gues??

  17. For years now, most stuff I read/ hear/ come to know, refuses to surprise me.. I have become so used to the levels of unfairness that my country can subject people to, that nothing really shocks me anymore..
    This until the Noida killings came out..

    For me, this is the most gruesome of all events that I have ever encountered (thankfully via the passive media) in my lifetime…
    Considering the other horrors we have all been subjected to including the Gujrat communal violence and Mumbai bomb blasts.. thats no mean achievement..

    Its hard to even imagine what led these two nice gentlemen (for lack of a better phrase to address) to these gross acts.. And they didnt do it once or twice in some dememted moment.. when they were out of their minds.. they did it for months.. about 18 months.. in the quite confines of their own bloody house.. Its how things are with UP nowadays probably..

    I belong to UP, by virtue (serious pun intended) of being born there.. and it gives me immense pain to think of the state which was once among the better states of india, now pretty much the crime capital of India.

  18. @raka: usualy its better to avoid ppl lik u…bt jst one point….by act do u mean tht we should bash up da UP ruling class buggers…or castrate the accused..or compensate the victim families…or stage a rdb styled India Gate peace march…or better still…fuck everythin nd watch the entire saga unfolds nd see hw wel is India shining…tke ur pick…

  19. @raka: usually its gud to ignore ppl lik u…bt on this occasion da situation demands a point being made…so wht choice do ve have under the present situation…do ve bash da ruling class buggers with our footwears….or castrate the accused…or walk towards India gate rdb style….or gherao the insensitive cops nd hang them high nd dry aka the Taliban way….or better still…do we sit back nd watch how da saga continues which perfectly upholds the India Shining campaign…do sugest sumthin…
    for ur info the politicians re already involvd in the situation albeit to score brownie points…Tom, Dick, Harry and their Uncle are mulling as to wht can they gain frm the situation…cops re ther,…lawyers re getting ready…there is sympathy around… in short their lot of shit flying around and all u can do is add some shit…hope thtz nt the case…

  20. Prateek, nope.. the minister hasnt been quoted out of context..
    I saw his interview on NDTV.. and he meant it.. He was trying to play down the thing.. and was taking pride in the fact that UP police had done a good and QUICK job of solving the crime… He also prided the UP Govt of giving 5 Lakh compensation to the victims parents.

    Infact, Amar Singh wanted to divert the matter with his claim that Moninder singh, being associated with some Congress chap.. and in some other interview.. he claimed the same but associating with some BJP chap…

    Interestingly, Amar Singh made a very *crucial* remark..
    When being questioned on why they were not asking the CBI to step in, what he had to say was this (my translation from Hindi) “If UP cops are driven by us (SP Party), then by the same yardstick, CBI would be driven by the centre (Congress), so what is the point in that?”
    another quote in the same vein, on being asked about the policing and lawlessness of SP regime:

    “UP Police/ Administration salute whoever is their political master.. they will serve whichever party is in command!!”
    (I personally thought this was sooo true, how police actually only *serves* the party in govt and definitely not the aam junta!!)

  21. Everyone is blaming everyone. Its a free for all………yeah!!

    Blame the police, blame the media, blame the govt. But no one is blaming “the people” – people like you and me, who sit on the sidelines and allow all this to happen. I blame no one else but myself and others like me who sit on the sidelines and keep bitching and moaning.

  22. to make matters worse,people are politicising the isssue.just heard yesterday,opposition parties are pushing a demand to give the victims’ families not only monetary compensation but also a flat and believe me a government job…….just as if there has been a forceful land aquisition or something of that sort!
    of course what better ideas do they have…..

  23. Its nothing new Arnab. This sort of callous comments and gross negligence of human emotions has come before. I remember one such was from a much “esteemed” politician, JYOTI BASU. He remarked that “such things do happen” after the Bantala & Birtai Rape cases in suburban Calcutta.

    Only way i could rationalise his comments, at any point of time

    Is second childishness and mere oblivion,
    Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything

  24. If you think these things does not happen in the West, you are in the dark, man( this is to MV) . Every other day you get to hear the news about some pedophile catholic priest, or a sex offender molesting a nine month old to a twelve year old or more. There had been several documentaries on the prime channels how young middle class girls are lured and often sold outside the country. Very recently in a sting operation set by Dateline NBC, these dateline guys acted like children in chat rooms to trick and attract the pedophiles and these pedophiles were caught red handed , some of them pants down in front of the camera and they included a policeman, a clergy, a dentist and so forth. After seeing that program I wondered how many such scums exist in our society and ofcourse being a mom it scares me to death. Atleast in USA once they are caught they are registered as sex offenders and the minor ones, though are released in the society but are always under watch. One thing for sure is that we get to here more of these kind of news in US because they take up each case seriously but in India they are just swayed away under the dusty files.

    I was surprised to read in TOI yesterday that cases like pedophilia are non-cognizable offence and ofcourse our Woman and Child development minister has said that there has to be an immediate change in the law and also changes in the curriculam at the National Police Academy and police training schools so that these policeman would learn to take up these cases seriously, yeah! and I hope they teach some lessons of humanity too, to these so called protector of our society.

    It breaks ones heart to read news like in Noida because they were not just pedophiles , they are murderers also but our country is run by these scumbag politicians so accountability does not exist.

  25. YOURFAN writes:
    @GB: All this time pictures were shown in TV of the house being barricaded by police. The police didn’t allow anybody to go near that house. Then all of a sudden yesterday I heard on NDTV that the police offered the media to go inside the house to check for themselves whether there was any thing ‘questionable’. The reporter openly said that after all types of ‘cleaning up’ the police is now ‘showing’ the house!! Obviously, the police are in cohort with the culprit.
    Whether it is a case of organ transplant (as some doctors told that the way the torsos were cut it seems that the work is that of a trained person) or sexual perversion I think the media and we should all get together like we did for Lal, Matto cases so that the police men who refused to take any FIR get the deserved punishment. Thank you for doing your bit by writing a post on this.
    Some commenter in your blog has given these types of heinous crimes as the reason for their decision of not coming back to India from US. But anybody who can google can find out that these types of cases are far more prevalent in US than in India. Of course one can find several reasons to justify one’s decision to come back to India or leave India – it is a personal choice but the presentation of wrong facts is not correct. Besides, unfairness is prevalent everywhere in this world in some form or other be it lack of opportunity, lack of shelter, lack of minimum amenities, lack of emotional bonding, over use of drugs and forced perverted sexual activities. Of course that does not mean that we should sit idle and not do anything – we should protest in our own small way which eventually will come out as a big way.

  26. It’s not the point whether this type of crime is more prevalent in India or elsewhere. Mulayam Singh, is in a way (and only in a small way, at that), right – these crimes are impossible to completely prevent – because perversion of human behaviour is a fact of life.

    The true horror is that the police did not do anything because the victims were poor people. That too is a fact of life that we often try to shut our eyes and pretend does not exist. Ask any maid, or driver or sweeper – do they expect the police to help them if they are in trouble? The usual response is that they prefer to avoid the police, because if they approach them, they will have to pay bribes, and still get harassed, and anyway, the police will do nothing for them.

    Personally, I do not believe that there is anything more ghastly or scandalous behind the event – no politician enjoying a bit of necrophilia on the side, no senior policeman farming out kids to paedophils, no juicy story to be dug out.

    What’s there is worse, a sad tale of neglect and callousness. What the police are trying to cover up is not the crime of commision – namely the rape and murder of so many children, but the crime of omission – the refusal of the police to investigate while it was still possible to save the lives of most of the children.

    I’ll tell you what I guess will happen – the criminal has been arrested and will face the music in court 20 years from now. Som policemen have been dismissed – that will stay. Senior policement have been suspended – after the case has faded from popular memory (i.e. the media has turned to a new story), these guys will be brought back and life will go on as usual.

    Even after this, will the police take a poor person seriously when he/she comes to file a case? You must be joking! If you don’t live in an ivory tower, you’d know that when a rich or even a middle class person commits a crime against a poor person, there will be policemen, who for a consideration, will advise you on how to hush up the case, or at worst, escape from the clutches of the law. They’ll scold you if you surrender, and tell you that you’re a fool not to have disappeared and taken anticipatory bail. They’ll advise you on how much to pay the victim or the victim’s family (there will be a percentage deducted from that for every cop in the station, depending on the rank). This was true from the Mughal era, still true under the British and true even now.

  27. Good post. Only if concerned authorities got their work down.

    On a side note, I always thought it was “Senorita, badey badey deshon main aisi choti choti baatein hote raheti hain”. Why do many of us use “r” in place of “d” when typing “hin”glish??

  28. In Kolkata, the man who owns Haldiram Bhujiawala chain has been accused of hiring a two-bit assassin to get a pavement chai-wallah killed. (the man was squatting in front of a building he had recently acquired)
    The inept gun-for-hire went and killed an uncle instead of the nephew.
    Assassin in jail, HB owner lording about as usual.

    I have stopped buying HB products. It would be great if everybody did.

  29. @oi @swati
    The wikilist might be showing than the ineptness of our police forces in tracking crimes and the indifferent nature of our media to exposing actual ‘issues’. Our huge population and limited police depth (in terms of the rural/urban divide and others) don’t help greatly either.

    Blaming oneself is stupid. Sounds gallant and all, but there’s no point blaming someone with no case for. So what do you expect ‘silent observers’ or ‘bystanders’ like you, me or Ahmed Swaminathan to do? Come on, RDB, Yuva style heroics are not overnight chores. The only thing one can do about them in the night is dream (excuse me, could’nt help it). Activism and mass mobilization are extremely difficult, especially in nation like ours, with no common ideology, cultural threads etc. The only thing I’ve seen so far that is a powerful binding force (like the rock’n’roll –> hippie culture activism, and other forms of american activism arising from strong common themes in the mid-20th century in the US) for us Indians is cricket. I doubt if this will help any way in mobilizing people for greater – or ‘other’ if that’s too judgemental – causes.

    Not buying HB products is not only not going to be of much help, it is a pretty irrational, impulsive reaction too. One, there’s no confirmation that the murkiness goes all the way up to the HB owner. It doesn’t make sense to ‘punish’ a corporation for the wrong-doings of one of its employees. And two, there’s no clear objective in sight.

    This does not mean defeatism is the only ‘ism’ people can resort to. But a bottom-up approach is exTREMEly unfeasible. There has to be a conscious change among atleast a handful of people involved in law, order, and the media. This I think is happening, albeit much too slowly to get our adrenalin flowing. That democracy (as it exists today) is to a large extent in the hands of people, is a blatant untruth. Democracy is a pseudo-capitalistic institution, only, in terms of power instead of money (directly). To place a big chunk of the blame on ourselves therefore is an exercise in masochism.

  30. Disguisting and horrifying as all this really is, one issue that does come up is is this truly an isolated incident? Clearly the magnitude may be one of its kind but just because it has become a media frenzy event and has political muscles in the frey doesnt mean this is the only problem. Indeed some of the posts here seem to support this view. So the questions that come up are: (i) why has this become the top story?; (ii) why are the politicians involved in it and what are they really achieving in making the place/country safer beyond achieveing their media face time?; (iii) this incident, in conjunction with what happened at the Gateway on the new years eve, really brings shame to much of what India represents, but then beyond the glitz that is potrayed in the bollywood movies and the IT campaigns, what has a Indian truly become as a citizen or a human?
    These and many thougts come up and one issue that springs up is that do we really do anything from the schools to the social structure to promote desi pride or a civic sense beyond the chapters one needed to memorize to complete history course requirements?

  31. No, the Haldiram Bhujiawala OWNER was cocky enough to admit on TV that he had hired people to do the chaiwallah in.

    This man runs illegal kitchens with unorganised labour. No one cares that the food stuff is cooked in unhygienic conditions by ill-paid labour.

    So, I am protesting against the owner and his shady business practises.

    I am not vandalising the HB outlets. Not activism enough, I guess.

  32. True for Delhi, true for India! As rightly observed by Bodhitree – “Jane Kitne Sadion Se, Le Raha Woh Teri” (-;
    [audio src="http://www.jammag.com/mp3s/bodhi/bodhitree_gaand_mein_danda.mp3" /]
    “In a manner that is very familiar to contemporary Indians, we find the Delhi police being used as the strong arm of the state even as the fragile administrative authority is forced to acknowledge the power of public opinion. They are asked to commandeer labour and resources, to make forcible searches and arrests, but without offending anyone!” – Mahmood Farooqui
    http://www.sarai.net/journal/06_pdf/05/01_farooqui.pdf
    Collection 53
    [Documents dated between 19 May and 10 August 1857]
    Notice to the Thanedar of Kashmiri Darwaza
    There was a note from trader Bahauddin stating that Bahauddin’s shop as well as two houses of Prince Kamran Bahadur which fall in your area were searched without any basis and you even let it be stormed. Therefore it is being written to the Thanedar of Kashmiri Darwaza that until [someone’s guilt] is proved you should desist from raiding or looting anybody’s house. When and if you intend to raid somebody’s house you should immediately inform the [ Kotwali]. Until permission is granted by the Kotwali no raids should be conducted. If anybody complains to you [about anyone] then you should get him to swear under oath and keep him in the lock up. You will be acting against your interest if you act against [the rules]. In case of any doubt please contact the Kotwali right away.

  33. @swati

    i get your point and do agree with your line of protest.even i decided that i wont ever see a shayan munshi soap/movie (bong connection and the likes) after he turned hostile in the jessica lal case and defended that he never understood hindi!
    of course i wont blacken his house or burn jhankaar beats dvd’s or turn down his posters…

    i know maybe these are impulsive to a certain extent,but al least it gives u some satisfaction and hopefully some respect to the deceased..

  34. Arnab,

    The whole police system needs to be changed: from a colonial one to a democratic one; from an underpaid one to an adequately compensated one; from a politicized one to a neutral arm of justice. Who will do this? Which party has the political will and insanity to go against money and vote banks?

    The Calcutta incident, which was initially stated as an open and closed case of Army high handedness, in fact, has gotten murkier. The ‘mamus’, whose political affiliations allow them leeway, stepped on the wrong toes this time. Also, what about the little incident of apathy in Mumbai, when cops stood around a woman getting molested.

    But, then again, who will bell the cat? Who will change the system? The whole system, from Tamil Nadu to Mizoram is collapsing. Perhaps, it is time to remove ‘law and order’ from the purview of the states and bring it under the center. Will it help or will it further aggravate the scenario? Do not know and do not claim to know, but your article does take the important step of starting the conversation.

    Vasabjit

  35. I stay at Sector 26 , Just opposite to the block where the incident tookplace and my house maid is from Natari.All of you may be aware that Mulayalm ordered for the CBI enquiry only after so much pressure from all quarters . In addition to what is being shown in Noida , we have been witnessing the parade by all the politicians appraently to appease the relatives of victims .

    ” When 9/11 happened western media made sure that none of the scenes depicted any dead body , even our media should learn to show what can be shown in television?” . This is an excellent example of media circus as well .

  36. After reading the comments, i now realize that there are so many people without proper work who read this medicore blog and post comments. Pity on Indians.

  37. @Uday

    You said something about blaming bystanders and stuff…However, when I checked your blog I found this quote:

    Thou shalt not be a victim. Thou shalt not be a perpetrator. Above all, thou shalt not be a bystander.

  38. Zul- fiqar- mat- karo said:

    “Kudos to you Arnab, you have nicely joined two disconnected issues, you should be samna editor.”

    —–

    You mean GB is a surgeon as well as a blogger eh. But what about you? Consider:

    1> The fear arising out of being branded as one of the perpetrators of the gruesome killings. So repulsive are the atrocities here that you would hate to see yourself either at individual level or as part of a community being blamed for the killings. But by and large, this part didn’t ring off any alarm bells in your mind. You merely read it with an acute feeling of surprise which soon tapered off to disinterest.

    2> Now SIMI is mentioned. The connection is quite logical, as strong as any to be found on any RDBMS joins. Even EF Codd would have approved. Mulayam’s indifference to the incident is as shocking as his nonchalance to the atrocious behavior of the party that his party supports. As a ending remark, it lends credence to what GB has wanted to emphasize earlier and dismisses the main incident as a one off case of political oversight.

    A fleeting thought crosses your mind “Could it be that its all a trick, with a propaganda?”. You are still not sure. Slowly the images of a hanging, supposed injustices, reports from Palestine and “unfair” allegations against a party you secretly admire but publicly afraid to extol take its toll. Now the post is no more than a facade hiding a vicious attack against a particular community. Therefore the writer must be a radical. The first name of such a radical publication that springs in your mind- Samna. Its most powerful position- that of the editor.

    The join of all such threads of thought leads to an uncomfortable feeling in your mind that the stench of the main incident is somehow spoiling the “beauty” of the sub- incident. Therefore this join is not only contrived to you, but plain outrageous, nefarious and disgusting………..

    —————–

    ………………But so fascinating was the journey on your train of thought and the surreal Alice in Wonderland type destination that I cannot buy say a 1000 times to you : “Kudos to you Zulfiqar. Now do yourself a favor and de -“fiqar” your mind by playing a game of ludo.”

  39. @Swati: I would not be surprised considering the stories I have heard of how the police and the administration often “enjoy” women.

    @Mukul: I would be hesitant to condemn the whole nation based on these incidents.

    @Shubhodeep:The freedom of the individual?Ever heard of it ? Perhaps not. If lawyers decide en masse not to defend these monsters,good for them. If I was a lawyer I would not have defended these fucks and contributed in any way of releasing them on the streets. I would have a problem if the lawyers were being coerced but that does not seem to be the case.

    @Giri: Many sick people outside India also. And even though the police is no doubt in this respect in say the US that still leaves a whole lot of cases of barbarity. Read about the BTK killer who was recently sentenced…

    @Tipu: No doubt Jessica Lal and Priyadarshini Mattoo became cause celebres because they were beautiful women and from the chatterati..

    @Puneet:Well each to his own.

    @Anshul: Indeed

    @Oi: A world in which only their caste brothers and their votebank counts.

    @Joy Forever: And then how must be Bihar?

    @Lalbadshah: Oh puleeze…lets not get into the salary of the cops thing. This is the logic used to explain every form of police malfeasance….in India professors are paid a pittance ( an engineer starting out often gets more than a professor at an IIT)—-would that justify them leaking exam papers or molesting students?

    @Arnab: In defense of the press, they print or show what the audience likes.

    @Yourfan2: The Saddam thing shows how parts of our country have ceased to be under any form of law.

    @Abhishek: Welcome to India 2020.

    @Gourav: I never said it was new.That does not make it any less shocking though.

    @Aditya Kuber: Oh no ! Please no RDB references…..please realize that isolated acts of vengence in the name of social reform serves no purpose.

    @Prateek: No he actually said that. Please do believe it.

    @Justin: Oh of course…that idiot is used to UP justice where the death of migrant workers is a trivial fact of life and there is nothing you can do about it.

    @Krishna: Yes it is a shocking indictment on community policing that in a populated area (not some abandoned shack in the woods), two men have been raping and murdering at will and nothing happened.

    @Raka: Yes very right. And I am glad you have taken the first “action” by commenting here.

    @Krishna: Aaah the wisdom of Amar Singh.

    @Partha: Oh yes I remember those comments of our great leader Jyoti-Dadu who used to worry more about the foxes disturbing his nocturnal activities than women being raped in thanas.

    @Yourfan: And now we learn that they were eating the corpses…the policemen will not be touched, they have been suspended for now till it blows over…….then when the cameras move onto the next big thing, the non-Yadavs among the cops will be given punishment-postings and the Yadavs forgiven and forgotten.

    @Sayon: Of course nothing will happen to the policemen…has it ever?

    @Ashish: No idea. I mean does it make any difference?

    @Swati: If indeed that be the case, then yes people should economically boycott Haldiram at the very least…..

    @Dev: Hmm.

    @Bhopale: Interesting.

    @Zulfiquar:

    “Kudos to you Arnab, you have nicely joined two disconnected issues, you should be samna editor”

    Heh. It’s Mulayam in both the cases…is it not? Now of course its “OK” for you to call me samna editor (i.e. a right-wing Hindu) because you do not 1)  agree with my training guns on SIMI-saviour Mulayam or/and 2) think that we should all say Zindabad for Butcher Saddam and get our temples cracked open if we do not say so.

    And since I am also a Hindu, you can call me Shiv Sena. But of course, if I do not agree you and call you a Jihadi…I wonder what the reaction would be.

    I am not incidentally saying you are….. which is what distinguishes me from you. And from Mulayam Singh Yadav.

    @Vasabjit: A matter of jurisdiction? Are the central agencies managed any better? I am all in favour of more powers to states….the problem lies elsewhere. Maybe there are malaises from Kashmir to Kanyakumari but there are some states which are way worse than the others. Why is that?

    @Nariyal: Did he? I thought he wanted it “later”.

    @Richie: And my pity on you, whichever sorry place you be from, for joining these pitiful Indians in reading this mediocre blog.

    @Shubodeep: Aaah so you agree with Richie (he is not far from the truth as you say)…ever heard of the not-so-small words “self flagellation” ? Of course my blog may be mediocre but I would expect people like you would show me the path to greatness with some not-so-mediocre comments ! Pity that you can recognize mediocrity and yet are not able to rise above it.

  40. @GB: Touchy, aren’t we?

    Yes, I do agree with Richie. You have a tremendous sense of humor, can see humor in uncommon situations and can articulate it very well. A great talent, I’m sure.
    However, IMHO, on subjects such as these, your write-ups are no eye-openers. There is always a sense that commentators are the ones who raise the level of the discussion, not the original post itself.
    Most importantly, the blogosphere is crowded with extremely talented writers. At the risk of sounding extremely tacky, let me say that on many topics that you have written on, there are ‘better’ commentaries out there.
    I know there is no need to mention this, but the question was asked, and honestly, with the rampant psycophancy (yes sir, irrespective of your opinion that it doesn’t meet the dictionary definition…the horror!), it doesn’t seem that out of place.
    Again, that’s subjective and MHO. And since it is, I had every right to put it right here in the comments section of your blog, since the context was there.
    Now, you can go blue in the face with indignation and spew sarcasm, after all, it IS your blog, but critisism comes with the territory. Get used to it.

    No writer myself…never wrote a diary or a decent note, and the dedication required to maintain a blog is not my cup of tea (self-flagellation, anyone?). But even I can tell you that you have the option of just shutting up and taking the high road when it comes to cheap pot-shots such as these.

    And yes, I’ll keep visiting this blog, thank you. I have nothing better to do.

  41. >But even I can tell you that you have the option of just shutting up and taking the high >road when it comes to cheap pot-shots such as these.

    You mean your cheap shots? Refreshing honesty.

    Now I wonder anything supporting my mediocre writing is called sycophancy and criticizing it not a sign of…well…let me take the high ground here….

    I also wonder aloud as to why you think I consider anything I write  “eye opening” and why not writing something that opens *your* eyes makes it mediocre.

  42. @GB>> The freedom of the individual?Ever heard of it ? Perhaps not. If lawyers decide en masse not to defend these monsters,good for them. If I was a lawyer I would not have defended these fucks and contributed in any way of releasing them on the streets. I would have a problem if the lawyers were being coerced but that does not seem to be the case.

    =========================================

    And who decides whether an accused is a ‘monster’? You?

    My comment was not only about the Noida case. It was about a trend being seen in India of late (Afzal Guru comes to mind…though I can already sense the ‘terrorist sympathizer’ tags being assigned to me). Who knows how many accused in India go without adequate legal representation just because their alleged crimes are too heinous and socially indefensible?
    Right to legal representaion is a fundamental right. As per GB’s freedom of individual argument (which as we have been informed now is something I have ‘perhaps not heard of’), if lawyers decide en masse not to provide this fundamental right to an accused, it’s ‘good for them’. And good for the legal traditions of our country too, I suppose.
    Yes, you would not have ‘defended these fucks’ because you are venting your emotions just like everybody on the street. But I suppose the defenders of the law, upholders of the constitution, etc. should not be peddling base emotions when they enter a court of law?
    Besides, I don’t buy your assumption that they are not coerced. Yes, there are no armed thugs threatening them at knife-point, but I would be interested to know whether you (if you were a lawyer) would have had the guts to defend them with the unimaginable social pressure and relentless media whoring (to borrow one of your more colorful turns of phrase). If the media’s collective trashing of Ram Jethmalani recently is anything to go by, I think very few lawyers in the country will have the professional and personal courage to stand up and take on high profile cases.
    But since you feel that it’s ‘good for them’, you would have felt terrible when Ramsey Clark joined Saddam’s defense team. US Attorney General at that! But we’re talking about someone with balls.

  43. “And who decides whether an accused is a ‘monster’? You?”

    YES ! If I decide that a person who kills little girls after raping them and then eating their flesh is a monster, then I have every right not to defend that guy. And not consider the “wider ramifications”.

    Is there co-ercion for the lawyers? According to you there is and we have to believe you. Of course possibilities like all lawyers being genuinely horrified and thus not being able to defend the indefensible (in other words, their decision stems from not being pressurized by society but from their own hearts) would be beyond the realm of possibility. I sincerely believe that no human being, who has had a child or been attached to one, can stand in the dock and argue for the release of these people, without compromising his own conscience.

    And yes Ram Jethmalani showed a lot of balls…constructing FALSE stories of turbanned men whose sexual prowess Lal had insulted….yes indeed lot of balls needed to defame the character of a dead woman

    Incidentally now I understand why I am mediocre….because I do not agree with your finding balls in all the wrong places. I am honored.

  44. “According to you there is and we have to believe you”

    No sir, in this blog we have to believe YOU. Or risk being lampooned in oh so many ways by your razor sharp wit and god-like talent with sarcasm, not to mention a small army of ‘fans’ (not sycophants, never) waiting by the sidelines.

    You must have read about the demise of one Stephen Bennett in a nondescript Maharashtrian village called Roha a few days ago. For the benefit of anybody who hasn’t, according to the local cops who ‘solved’ the case, he knocked on a door early in the morning of the day he was killed, surprised a woman sleeping inside, who raised an alarm, causing the male members of her house to chase, beat up and hang this unfortunate Englishman by a saree from a tree on the outskirts of the village. Even to the gullible, this story is quite a stretch. Two people from the woman’s family have been arrested and accused of murder. The woman, who’s illiterate, now says the police took her thumb impression on a statement, and that she had never seen the dead man before.
    Tell me, O GB, do you proclaim these accused as ‘monsters’? Would you start a campaign to prevent lawyers from representing them? Maybe not. Because your heartstrings are now tugging the other way, sympathizing with the accused, perhaps? Now, if only our courts relied on the GB-Meter for clearing our backlog of cases, we wouldn’t have such a problem in hand.
    So, Jethmalani tried to defame the character of a dead woman. That’s part of his job — when he’s defending a alleged killer/rapist. Have you suddenly turned so naive as to cast aspirations on Jethmalani’s character because of his legal defense strategies? That’s not just simplistic…it’s downright silly.
    If you were in bad legal trouble, and could afford to hire Johnnie Cochran, you bet your ass you would. And I’m sure those tiny little details about him defending ‘monsters’ (by your definition) like OJ Simpson, Michael Jackson, Tupac and Snoop Dogg (thank God for Wikipedia) would have been conveniently ignored.

  45. @oi

    Hmm. If you’d read the whole post, you’d have known nothing in the post was ever meant to be taken seriously. Your comment is like what the media do – take things out of context. And I wasn’t even saying that myself – it was a ‘quote’ as is clearly mentioned. I hope you realise that mentioning a quote from somewhere does not amount to agreeing with or endorsing it.

    By the way, GB’s start to one of his posts was my inspiration to start that post with the DC Holocaust Museum quote too….but then, well, I got crazy. 😀

  46. @ oi (what a name)

    And if you’d read my comment on here thoroughly, you’d also have noticed that my point was that there’s no point in blaming oneself for being a bystander from a wider perspective, like say my governement goes to war and I do nothing about it. Because I can’t. I never said anything supporting being a bystander in things where you actually have a powerful presence, say when I’m witness to a ghastly crime (you know, the roadside one-on-one types). But I’m going to say it now. If there’s ever a choice between my life and my ‘morality’/conscience/other such self-destructing forces, I’ll run with and for my life.

  47. Its a shame that people like mulayam singh continue to be in power. Having said that the stunts that the kerala govt. pulled in trying to prevent the capture of Abdul Nasser Madani by the TN police and at the moment facilitate him with as many as comforts as possible – all this is done to reduce the vote bank of the muslim league.
    There is a fantastic article by pratap bhanu mehta on the noida murders.

  48. @Subhodeep: You do not try to address my point: those lawyers who refused to defend the Noida killers are not going by my GB-meter but by their own morality-meters. And they have the perfect right.

    Why bring Cochran into this discussion? Surely you do not think he defended those fine fellows because noone else would defend them ! (You forgot P Diddy) If I killed and raped 17 people and I needed Cochran then yes I would turn to him. The issue here is whether Cochran (who incidentally died recently) would defend me (of course since this is Cochran if I had the cash, he would) on the issue of principle or because I could pay him well. Coming back to this case, of course the accused monsters would try to get the best legal help but then it is upto the individual lawyers whether they want to do it or not and in this case none of the lawyers want to be a part of it and for understandable reasons.

    And oh nowhere (unless of course it’s in Subhodeep’s dream world) is it considered ethical to manufacture lies to get a client off the hook. As an example, if Ram Jethmalani (if he defends the Nithari murderers) enters an insanity plea for the Nithari murderers, that’s okay but if he claims that none of them committed the murders and all the parents intentionally butchered the children for the compensation cheques and then starts manufacturing evidence to prove his point then we start getting into the “finding balls in wrong places” territory.

  49. YOURFAN writes:
    @Shubhodeep You wrote: ‘So, Jethmalani tried to defame the character of a dead woman. That’s part of his job — when he’s defending a alleged killer/rapist. Have you suddenly turned so naive as to cast aspirations on Jethmalani’s character because of his legal defense strategies? That’s not just simplistic…it’s downright silly’.

    Do you know that Ram Jethmalani’s daughter went to the media to express her condemnation of her father’s decision to defend the accused of Lal case based on falsification and wrongful defamation? She said that it is outright unethical. I saw this footage on NDTV. If it was just ‘part of his job’ then how come his own daughter who is also a renowned lawyer condemned the decision?

    And now don’t start calling me sycophant etc – not that it bothers me but why spend the time and energy to write something which does not bother me at all only because I have the capability to ‘agree to disagree’ without calling anybody any names etc.

  50. GB, similar callous police behaviour (despite counterexamples of police dutifulness) abounds all over India and in much of the developing world of former colonies where such law-keeper systems where inherited from the high-handed foreign rulers. Of course, it would be a mere excuse to not re-set our mentalities over the span of decades of independence.

    However, stagnancy is more built-in into conservative societies like ours which have legitimized legacies of hiererchically placing individuals by their socio-economic and religious status. All political parties (including the holier-than-thou communists) play these cards and would act not much differently had this happened in any other state in India. But of course the public (i.e. we) should continue to keep its vigil and express outrage with help of media if change has to happen.

    I guess you remember that I had felt unease earlier over a mention of extra-contextual qualifications of a victim (e.g. her educational achievements) of crime. However well-meaning (innocuous and just) in the beginning (as in the case of the caste system), a seed of any kind of distinctionism gains corruption (for vested interests) with time and eventually breeds malicious social reasoning (e.g. poor/pretty Bengali implies immoral) and injustice results.

  51. Hegel (so beloved by the people of crimson persuasion) said that the police was a superstructure sort of thing on society.
    That means they are there to protect the rich and the powerful.
    Too bad if some of us don’t fall in this exalted category.

    By and large, our police force has been doing their duty admirably, well, according to the aforementioned Hegel.

  52. Remember Jyoti Babu’s retort on the Bantala incident ?

    “Erokom to hoye-i thake”

    Somethings never change. Sarat, Bankim, Raja Rammohan highlighted the wretched plight of Bengali women in Bengal (100-150 yrs back?). Bengali women are still tortured raped murdered for fun, only the location has changed and the perpetrators are non-bengalis.

    There is always an element of exotic erotica in non-local women. They bear the brunt of carnal desires of their lords. Remember Rape of Nanking ?

    Another constant tragedy for the last 300 years is the condition of bengali women in benaras (Kashi). Pity that nonone writes about them.

    There is a marwari hospital in calcutta. A gujrat education society in bhowanipore. No such bengali shelter in benaras.

    Seems communism, socialism, capitalish, growth budgets, blogs, awareness and a lot of other things cannot help women after all. Only money can.

  53. @uday

    Fair enough! I still differ but then its good to differ sometimes as well. As for “oi” – its an acronym, for what? you can figure it out easily. Surely you don’t think that “anon” “yourfan” etc are names, do you?

  54. @GB: “You do not try to address my point”

    On the contrary sir, you have not addressed my original point.

    Three possibilities.
    1. Lawyers in Noida are following their conscience. Fair enough. As free citizens of our country they have personal freedom to act as they please.
    2. Lawyers in Noida see an legally unwinnable case. Again, fair enough. As lawyers they have professional freedom to practice as they please.
    3. Lawyers in Noida don’t want to touch this case with a bargepole because of the backlash they would face in society and local/national media.

    You are convinced that it is #1, while I feel it is more a combination of 2 and 3, with 3 weighing in heavily.
    If lawyers were so concerned with morality…well, let’s not offend anyone here.

    Anyway, we digress, and none of these answer my original observation…whether this is a positive trend for the legal traditions of our country. Especially when taken in the context of similar situations in the Jessica Lal and Afzal Guru cases.
    Trials by media, the man on the street acting as judge and jury, defense lawyers vilified in the media and society, and of course, collective decisions by lawyers not to defend certain accused, not because that’s correct from the legal standpoint, but because they want to prove to society that they are on the ‘right’ side of the moral divide. Is this your vision of India’s judicial system in the future?

    As far as Jethmalani goes, yes, he does have balls in the correct places (to satisfy your current curiosity about the subject). He did bring in a twist in the Jessica Lal case and he said he had evidence to prove it. Do YOU know whether he was lying? Did YOU see the evidence? The court dismissed it, but that’s for the court to decide, not you, sir, by any stretch of the imagination.
    Incidentally, the cops in Roha also say they have evidence to prove the guilt of the two illiterate farmers accused of Stephen Bennett’s murder. I’m assuming you don’t belive them either, for the sake of consistency?

  55. @anon: “Do you know that Ram Jethmalani’s daughter went to the media to express her condemnation of her father’s decision to defend the accused of Lal case based on falsification and wrongful defamation? She said that it is outright unethical. I saw this footage on NDTV. If it was just ‘part of his job’ then how come his own daughter who is also a renowned lawyer condemned the decision?”

    Honestly, that’s his daughter’s perogative, and just because she did it doesn’t make it the right thing to do. And she was not the only one questioning his integrity. That was because the general perception was that this was an open and shut case, with Manu Sharma being the guilty party and a death sentence just round the corner. The court case and due process of law were seen more as a hindrance than anything else, and THAT was the scary part.

    I feel Jethmalani’s crusade (if you can call it that) is not so much about proving the innocence of Manu Sharma, Beant Singh, Harshad Mehta, et al. It is more about plying his trade without an atmosphere of fear or intimidation, it is about taking on the establishment and entrenched dogmas, and in the larger picture, upholding the basic tenets of our judicial system such as the assumption of innocence till proof of guilt, and faith in the judiciary to make the correct judgement, as opposed to the man on the street or a base story-hungry media.
    I salute the man for his courage, especially in a country where fence-sitting and taking the easy road has been perfected to an art form.

    Now to another small matter…
    >> ” I have the capability to ‘agree to disagree’ without calling anybody any names etc”
    I’m sure you do, but I’m assuming here that you are insinuating that I indulge in rampant name-calling. Which really is sad, because either you have not read all my posts, or are generally being obtuse (now technically that’s not name-calling, is it?) for the sake of it. The ‘sycophant’ thing has really begun to haunt even my dreams now, and I really regret letting that word loose in here. Judging from the behaviour of a few ‘fans’ here, that was the closest adjective (or noun? got my parts of speech mixed up here…) I could find. We have now all been informed that the dictionary doesn’t quite agree with my usage of the term. Damn, now I have to find some other word that’s politically AND lexicaly correct…

  56. @Subhodeep: Just before you start thinking of yourself as a martyr (why I would moderate one comment of yours and let all other pass is of course a matter you will no doubt not question)…WP moderates some comments on its own..(I have no hand in it)…maybe it has a BS sensor…I do not know. If I really wanted to censor (like some of your non-mediocre bloggers), I would have moderated ALL your comments. Capiche?

    So since you are convinced its 2 and 3 and not 1, I have to accept it otherwise I am mediocre. Of course, I gladly accept my mediocrity. Incidentally re point 2, lawyers *do* take cases where they will lose simply because 1) they get paid all the same 2) publicity. As an aside, there are many poor people in India set up and sent to jail (no political angle)….do you find Ram Jethmalani doing pro bono work there?

    “He did bring in a twist in the Jessica Lal case and he said he had evidence to prove it. Do YOU know whether he was lying? Did YOU see the evidence? The court dismissed it, but that’s for the court to decide, not you, sir, by any stretch of the imagination.”

    The court said he was lying. His daughter said he was lying. When a court upholds the alternative theory, the court says he is lying. And that’s the final truth. I know you may not think so but then again…and yes I can decide on any stretch of imagination (even though I am not the legal authority)! I cannot sentence Manu Sharma but I can comment on his guilt and on the morals of Jethmalani by every stretch of imagination!

    When you say “how do you know? Did you see the evidence?” I do not know whether to laugh or cry. When you say Nathuram Godse murdered Gandhiji, do you say that after seeing the evidence or because the court said so?When you accept any fact from the media, do you yourself see the evidence? I just cannot get past the ridiculousness of your assertion.

    As an aside, there are many who believe that the Holocaust never happened. All respectable historians dismiss it. KC Paul of Dharmatala says that the sun revolves round the earth and he even has an explanation why it appears to be otherwise. Now by your token noone has disproved these two things just like noone disproved the horny Sikh theory.But no sane person accepts them just as no sane person considers Jethmalani’s story to be true.

    Which is why he is a liar. And a liar is the last person who can be courageous.

    And Subhodeep when you find people disagreeing with you…why do you think you have to call them my sycophants….cant you just believe that there are many mediocre people here who just dont see the world the way you do? Through your exalted logic, why do you not see that since I cannot even exert social pressure on my sycophants in any form ( also many of them dont have blogs that I can drive traffic to them), why do you think they would perform sycophancy?

  57. @Subhodeep: You are mixing up a lot of things. But I agree with you on the Jethmalani issue though. As a defense lawyer he had every right to defend his client. Regarding the media’s en masse bashing of the defense lawyer…well they do have their freedom of speech don’t they? Now you can call their interests as vested…taking a stance based on what will appeal to readers rather than pure morality itself. But why should that affect defense lawyers? They should just go about their jobs.

    Regarding your question of trend, I have a question. Please educate me on whether the lawyers said that they took the action based on #2 and 3 of the possibilities you mentioned? If they did, then you can form such a hypothesis. If they did not then you are indulging in speculation based on a hunch and some previous incidents which may or may not be independent to this incidenct of boycott. Then your hypothesis is not supported, at least not by this incident.

    Its a bit like a sexually repressed 15 year old girl (underage) comes to you/I and starts kissing us and begs for sex and starts giving a BJ. We refuse.

    Three possibilities.
    1. We are following our conscience. Fair enough. As free citizens of our country we have personal freedom to act as we please.
    2. We see this as a trap or a set up. Again, fair enough. We have a right to be skeptical.
    3. Despite immense temptations, we don’t want to touch the girl fearing what may happen if this incident leaks out in future. The media and society doesn’t take a kind view on people who have sex with underage girls. They call us pedophiles and what not.

    Somebody may be convinced that it is #1, while somebody may feel it is more a combination of 2 and 3, with 3 weighing in heavily.

    Now a lot of things can be extrapolated from this. Is our abstaining behavior a good sign as far as sexual health and response to sexual situations of the country is concerned? But the investigator/ researcher in this case can only conclude 1, 2, or 3 based on empirical evidence and then use that in conjunction with previous incidents to form a trend and then examine for stuff like seasonality and autocorrelation.

    Either way, if we don’t say why we abstained, the research will be based on hunch and not on empirical evidence as it should be and hence someone may cast an aspersion on the proposed ” trend”.

  58. “Of course possibilities like all lawyers being genuinely horrified and thus not being able to defend the indefensible (in other words, their decision stems from not being pressurized by society but from their own hearts) would be beyond the realm of possibility.”

    Arnab do you seriously believe that is within the realm of possibility? All lawyers? I think it is not unreasonable to suspect that it has more to do with the fear of negative publicity. And what does that mean.. that because of the media glare, most people already consider the accused to be guilty. So that’s why its fine that the accused cannot find a defence lawyer? There is that much certainty about their guilty even before the trial has started? If you indeed believe that lawyers’ conscience is really the reason, then there’s no problem. No defence lawyer can be forced to take on any case. But if the negative publicity is a factor, that is a very disturbing trend indeed.

    “I sincerely believe that no human being, who has had a child or been attached to one, can stand in the dock and argue for the release of these people, without compromising his own conscience.”

    Then shouldn’t those human beings as well stop being defense lawyers altogether? Obviously this Noida case has particularly horrified you, as it has everybody. But your logic can be extended to any crime, can it not? How then can you as a lawyer defend a person you know to be guilty, for any crime, be it one of the not-so-much-reported murders that take place everyday, a case of embezzlement, theft, or even a traffic violation. If you respect the law and should go by your conscience as you say, why is only this particularly horrible crime tugging at your conscience? Shouldn’t defence lawyers make that a rule and always only defend accused who they think are are actually innocent ? Is it conscienciously ethical for a lawyer to only defend the wrongfully accused? I know you did not say that, but that’s what your reasoning seems to suggest.

    An accused is allowed to have a defence lawyer to provide a competent defence during a trial, regardless of the fact that the accused may indeed be guilty. Defence lawyers always tell their clients to be fully truthful with them in private i.e. if the client is guilty, he is urged to disclose it to his lawyer, because that knowledge (along with details of the crime) helps the lawyer to best defend him. These discussions between defence lawyers and their clients are protected by attorney-client privileges – the lawyer cannot be later asked to testify against his client on the basis of those discussions. The whole idea of accused having defence lawyers in the first place is based on this legal procedure. And now suddenly all of this goes against all defence lawyers’ conscience, but only for one highly publicized gruesome series of murders?

  59. @Debashish: Valid points.

    Here’s what I have to say.

    1. Negative publicity usually is not something lawyers are unduly worried about. What they are usually worried about is the lack of publicity. During the MJ trial, Nancy Grace was coming on primetime TV and calling MJ’s lawyers as people who help paedophiles walk free and it soared up her ratings. Did that dissuade MJ’s lawyers ? No it gave them even more publicity. There were lawyers queuing up to defend him because of the money and publicity involved.

    2. There is a line. Murder, fraud, cheating, dowry deaths…are heinous. And then there is the rape and murder of children. From a very objective POV, there of course is no distinction between the two. But since we are dealing with human beings and since there is something distinctly “different” in children being butchered from other crimes, many lawyers who would have no qualms in getting a murderer of the hook will baulk at defending the Nithari murderers.

    And it is not that the Nithari murderers will not get legal cousel, the law guarantees that.

  60. @GB:
    >>”there are many poor people in India set up and sent to jail (no political angle)….do you find Ram Jethmalani doing pro bono work there?”
    No. Social worker, the man is not. But I suppose going by your logic that makes him morally ineligible to accept a case that will earn him a lot of money?

    >>”I cannot sentence Manu Sharma but I can comment on his guilt and on the morals of Jethmalani by every stretch of imagination!”
    Your forceful proclamation of the guilt of the accused in your earlier posts and your endorsement of the possibility of denial of the fundamental right to a fair trial to the accused did not seem like a casual ‘opinion’ to me. You cannot sentence anybody, but your rather strong conviction about the guilt of certain accused even before a trial and presentation of evidence seems to be fundamentally wrong, in my opinion.
    You can have your take on Jethmalani’s morals, but is it so difficult to admit that the man fights the odds, and has the guts that many of us wish we did?

    >>”When you say Nathuram Godse murdered Gandhiji, do you say that after seeing the evidence or because the court said so?When you accept any fact from the media, do you yourself see the evidence? I just cannot get past the ridiculousness of your assertion.”
    The comparison with Godse is silly. There were probably hundreds of witnesses ready to take the stand at the trial (I’m really not familiar with the facts), unlike the few in the Jessica Lal case, who also turned hostile later. Besides, taking the sentiment of your comment further, Godse should have been lynched then and there. Why even wait for a trial, since we would be stupid to wait for the court to give its verdict. Now, can you see the ridiculousness of your assertion?

    >>”Now by your token noone has disproved these two things just like noone disproved the horny Sikh theory.But no sane person accepts them just as no sane person considers Jethmalani’s story to be true”
    This is surprising, especially coming from a person with a scientific bent of mind.
    I’m sure when Copernicus said that the earth wasn’t at the center of the universe, no ‘sane’ person believed him either, because at that time, I’m sure they had overwhelming ‘proof’ of the contrary. The ‘horny Sikh’ theory may be dismissed by you offhand (it’s easy to do so now, since the trial is over), but at that point in time, it was a legitimate point raised, especially since Jethmalani said he had witnesses. So, what would you do as a judge, call him insane because your sanity tells you that he’s a liar, or actually ask him for evidence?

    >>”Capiche?”
    Yes, yes…I do capiche, O GBocci!

    And now that I have capiche’d, I will change my name and leave town, not to mention deposit a million bucks in your swiss account. I will also eliminate ‘mediocre’ and ‘sycophant’ from my vocabulary, honest! As you can see, I have totally and completely capiche’d.

    >>”I have to accept it else I am mediocre.”
    This is really going nowhere. Enough already!
    I take it back! Now can we end the sulking?

  61. And what happened to Jethmalani’s witnesses? It is because I have a scientific bent of mind that I find anyone’s hypothesis “without any scientific proof” to be a lie. At the time of Copernicus, it was he who had the scientific evidence and with Jethmalani it was his opposition that had the scientific evidence ie Munshi’s statement which he recanted giving reasons that not even a 5 year old (with some exceptions) would buy.

  62. “And what happened to Jethmalani’s witnesses? It is because I have a scientific bent of mind that I find anyone’s hypothesis “without any scientific proof” to be a lie.”

    Yes, and I’m sure you’re the Oracle who knew even before the trial that Jethmalani didn’t have anything.
    ‘Munshi’s statement which he later recanted’ is scientific evidence? By what count?

    There’s no point in this discussion, really. Till date I’ve never seen you budge from what you believe to be correct, and that’s usually your own opinion (from what I’ve seen in your blog, that is, since I don’t know you personally).
    As the saying goes, you see only what you want to see.

  63. Ok. You win. Let’s kill all defence lawyers and bury Jethmalani alive.

    Or we can just end with the mother of all cliches…by ‘agreeing to disagree’. Ugh…I winced while even typing that out…:-)

  64. And just to put things in perspective, 9 more brick kiln workers and milkmen were killed by ULFA over the weekend near my hometown, as we indulged in our little game of armchair punditry. That brings the total to 57, since last Friday.

  65. Folks,

    Leave the poor defence lawyers. Even this blog has its fair share of visitors extracting their 15 minutes of fame.

    Asinine arguments of liberal, know-it-all simply muddies the discussion. Empathy and sensitivity to victims is the last thing you can expect from them.

    I feel it is time we look at something here… A corrupt and defunct police force, a rotten carry over from the Raj days (along with the IAS), that was designed to harass the natives and serve the rulers.

    Unless this ugly institution is dismantled and restructured, the only thing left will be ‘armchair punditry’ by likes of Subhodeep.

    Lynch mobs will take over, otherwise. It takes a little for stone pelting mobs to turn to Molotov cocktails (filled with PDS supplied blue kerosene of course).

  66. @All

    I was not part of this discussion, and I do agree that the way Shubhodeep started off would have got people’s hackles up, especially the “fans”, but now I think that ganging up on him together is carrying it a bit too far.

    He has some excellent points, and the point about not secong guessing defence lawyers to me is rather irrefutable. So let’s just admit that our visceral “moral” stand on Jathmalani was actually wrong. I detest the man personally, and I believe Manu Sharma is guilty as hell – that’s my heart speaking.

    But my head says, Jethmalani has every right to defend him. And that the insults and pressure heaped on him was unwarranted. Let’s not get into the lynch mob mentality. Not with all out education and intellect.

    @Shubhodeep

    Now that that’s done with, calling this blog mediocre and Arnab’s supporters “sycophants” are hardly going to endear you to us is it? Unless the intention is to provoke. You provoked and got kicked. All par for the course.

  67. It is very sad to hear this type of news in our society
    It shows a very disturbing trend in the criminal justice system India in the recent past, coming on the heels of much publicized cases where lawyers have been reluctant to defend accused in the face of a rabid and populist media baying for vigilante justice. And lawyers who do speak out against this downward trend are demonised (Ram Jethmalani) by media and society.

  68. >> @Shadows
    >> HELP!

    @Swati

    Me ? Seems like I have a real bad image !

    @GreatBong,

    The worst part is that even our ruling parties were condemning Saddams execution, in an effort to woo muslims. Do you really think that anyone can be truly secular after being subjected to violence. And that too, for a tyrant dictator in a foreign country! And we have people like zulfiquar amongst us. Sometimes, I actually feel that I dont belong to this country – after being born and brought up in India, I am not even considered to be an Indian by many, because of my ethnic origins.

    @yourFan2

    >>You mean GB is a surgeon as well as a blogger

    ROFL.. 😀 haha.. how did you come to such conclusion..

    you never cease to amuse dont you? ok ok.. i m a blogwhore.. now.. doesnt a whore have the right to post comments..
    By referring to whore in the manner that you have, you have revealed your cheap mentality.
    Where is your leftist, everyone-is-equal ideology now? Such hypocrites !!

    By the way, have you ever tried putting your point across without abusive behaviour or GreatBong-sycophancy-fanboy antics?

  69. @Shubhodeep,

    Ram Jethmalani is a very smart man. He knew for sure that Manu is going to be hanged. He just wanted to make some money in fees. I guess, even he knew that his turbanned-man-killed-Jessica theory would be trashed. He knew about the media backlash. But then, he himself never seemed to be sure that he will rescue Manu.

    Talking about conscience, there are lawyers like Majeed Memon who are on permanent payrolls of the Mumbai underworld.

    @yourFan2,

    DB joins?? 😀 LOLzz. EF Codd would have pulled his hair if he were alive? Seriously, stop doping too much.

  70. @VonRunstedt: “Asinine arguments of liberal, know-it-all simply muddies the discussion. Empathy and sensitivity to victims is the last thing you can expect from them.”
    You don’t say!!

    “Unless this ugly institution is dismantled and restructured, the only thing left will be ‘armchair punditry’ by likes of Subhodeep.”
    You mean, India’s police force? Whoa…

    @Shan: “Now that that’s done with, calling this blog mediocre and Arnab’s supporters “sycophants” are hardly going to endear you to us is it? Unless the intention is to provoke. You provoked and got kicked. All par for the course. ”
    My intention was to comment, and I did, replicating. as truthfully as I could, what was in my mind.
    Endearing myself to the few here who would gladly see me leave this blog is not my life’s mission, I can assure you.
    Provoked and got kicked? Really? Because GB and associates wrote a few sarcastic lines? There’s more to life than that, surely.

    And what is the hullabaloo all about? This was a discussion about the Nithari murders. How did this come so far off track? And why is the attention on me, instead of the questions I raised?

    Plus, there’s a new post out…yai!! So folks, please move on…show’s over. As true couch warriors we should move to the next battle. C’mon now…no time to lose…

  71. @Shubhodeep: You’re a lawyer – so obviously you’ll support your tribe. No shame in that, of course. But unfortunately the common man does see your tribe as a group of people with little moral scruples in caring to defend criminals (who obviously have more money than honest people). Your statement ‘innocent unless proven guilty’ simply becomes a case of the devil quoting scriptures.

    Yes, if I’m in trouble with the law, I’ll hire the best lawyer I can afford. But even if I am innocent, and my lawyer gets me off, people will still think that it’s because of the lawyer’s prowess, and not my innocence which is the cause of my being out of jail.

    Any solutions to that – I admit I haven’t come across one. But given the misuse of the instruments of law by criminals (aided and abetted by many powerful lawyers), don’t expect us to look up to lawyers as a bunch of do-gooders, out to serve society. You’re naive if you do.

    The status of lawyers is symptomatic of a deeper malaise in society. Maybe we’ve just filled up the planet too much, and it’s just nature’s way of getting us to cut down our numbers…

    @Shadows: On Ram Jethmalani’s reason for taking the Jessica Lal case, you may well be right. Unless of course the man is just going senile.
    (See, we can agee on somethings, occasionally. Wow!)

    On the ruling party condemning the execution of Saddam, I believe the point made was the execution by a Kangaroo court, and the crass manner in which the execution was carried out. The man deserved to die, but justice demands more legitimacy than this. And now the Iraqi government is trying to prosecute the person who took the footage, and revealed the farce of the execution to the world. Hah!

  72. I am not sure if I agree with the generalisation that politicians were condemning the Saddam execution only with an eye on Muslim votes. Are Blair and Brown doing the same thing? Manmohan Singh is a person who I truly believe is above this petty vote bank politics.

    I too have an issue with Saddam’s execution. While I don’t particularly care about Saddam’s death, I do have an issue with criminals trying criminals. Bush and co. set up their puppet court and there was flagrant disregard of the law in this case. Amnesty and other human rights organizations say the same thing about this case. It seems very easy and convenient to label any voice of dissent as Muslim appeasement, but maybe we should give them the benefit of doubt.

    I also loved the argument lines between Shubhodeep and GB. As diplomatic as it sounds, I do agree with a lot that was said by both of them. I think that there is a huge possibility of lawyers being vilified in the press which might influence thier judgment of whether to choose to defend the accused. Let us all not forget the basic tenet of law – “Innocent until proven guilty”. While rushing to judge with our hearts, lets not leave objectivity out.

  73. @Shadows.

    Nah, you have an OK image
    It’s youir shadow that is causing all this negetivity.

    Or would you prefer the doppelganger theory?

  74. Manmohan Singh is a person who I truly believe is above this petty vote bank politics.

    =======

    OI,

    You are very very mistaken. Its that cultivated image of an educated intellectual. In effect, he is nothing more than a lapdog of 10, Janpath. He is responsible for refuelling the caste politics (through Arjun Singh. If he is the PM, he should stop such nonsense). And didnt he say that muslims are more important to him than us, who are the ones who have actually been oppressed.

  75. @shadows

    🙂 – you seem to be very sure. Yes, I am just guessing and he gives me that image of himself. From how sure you sound, you must have an inner connection to 10 Janpath 🙂 where I have to take a bow…

  76. >> you seem to be very sure

    OI,

    Oucchh.. that hurt, didnt it?

    Yep, I am pretty sure. You dont need any inner connections, you just need to be a little sharp to figure that one out.

  77. @shadows

    now you’re coming across as silly. adhering to your view point so obstinately that you think others are fools, or rather “not sharp”. Has your gut feeling ever been wrong? EVER? I don’t need the answer to that question. Ask yourself.

  78. @OI – I am sorry to say that you have not understood shadows at all. The reason he adheres to his point of view so obstinately is he wants to get into a scuffle with you. Also notice his attacks….out of context, immature and random. Puzzled? Well, ever heard of a masochistic sex slave? Thats his pleasure….not by calling you a fool and feeling intelligent…no.no …but if you give a strong reply, he gets such a hard on that he will spray on his shorts immediately. No wonder he likes me. My replies gave him the best orgasms . I didnt realise it earlier, but later understood what a fool I was to be sucked into this. I kept quiet and decided not to give him his pleasure yesterday…so its natural that he finds someone else…so its your turn today. Got it? 🙂 So its best to ignore his comments and deny that pathetic cur his daily dose of orgasms besides his vicarious pleasure of feeling important. Dont get angry him anymore…instead have pity.

  79. @ yourfan2

    Thanks for the insight on the shadowy workings of shadows 🙂 And I have been feeling the same emotion as you suggested and not the one you asked me not to. 🙂

  80. I am surprised that you are surprised Arnab. Since when did it matter to the people of power whether common people were tortured, killed, maimed or raped! After the Bantala incident in West Bengal (some 10 yrs ago I believe), our esteemed Jyoti Basu had said ,”erokom to kawto hoy”.

  81. Hey you think this actually happen. Did you not know that we are a country on the verge of an economic explosion. An explosion thats going to take us to a level where everyones happy. Ok so shut up now and just take the humping as long as it does not explode. Bloody cribbing about these trivial matters.

  82. Pingback: The heinious murder of an innocent child « Indianpressblog’s Weblog

  83. Hey,

    The murder of innocent children by Tantrics must be condemned by all irrespective of affilations.

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