The Sound of Inevitability

285 Comments

The best thing about being me… There are so many “me”s

–Agent Smith, Matrix Reloaded.

[Image courtesy: Yogesh K Sharma]

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285 thoughts on “The Sound of Inevitability

  1. Oops – the above comment is mine. There seems to be a bug here in K2 – its remembering the last commentator, and I didn’t check it thinking it would have saved my info.

  2. @raj
    You should check your facts buddy. You don’t really mean “only in India” in all seriousness do you? If you do, you should attend a couple of history classes.
    Not to support Modi or anything, but what is the definition of a “criminal”, I might be a bit behind the times, but I can’t recollect him being convicted of any crime.

  3. Nice post the most terse yet hard hitting in recent times from you. Do you want to say Modi is a virus? Anti – Neo? Who would be our Neo and Morpheus?

    It was interesting to see BJP doing high tech stuff for promotion. I heard he was there in YouTube, orkut. They have started sending SMS too!


    Dekhte hain chunaav ka ye oont kis karvat letega

  4. So GB, you also enrolled in the pseudo-secular gang!!!
    Even Rajdeep/Pranoy could not tell him a “virus” in the course of their unbelievably spectacular and focussed “hate Modi” campaign for the last three months.

  5. Though I am myself a big fan of Modi, but still disgusted by so much hero-worship in India. Previously it was mainly in South, with ppl cutting their tongue for Jayalalitha and all that, but looks like it has started spreading to Northern India also.

  6. Arnab,

    Awesome metaphor!

    On a related note, I remember the following dialogue from ‘The Matrix’
    Agent Smith, “Do we have a deal?”
    Cypher, “You know, I know this steak doesn’t exist. I know that when I put it into my month, the Matrix is telling my brain that it’s juicy and delicious. After nine years, you know what I realize? Ignorance is bliss.”

    In this Modi saga, many people have blissfully traded principle for progress. And it represents nothing less than criminal complicity to my mind.

  7. You really have a demented mind dada.
    You always come up with the great ideas and amaze me.
    Great piece.

    On a serious nore this time Modi has tough conmpetition.
    He wont get the the win as last time.

    You Made my day.

    Thanks,
    Tarzan

  8. Finally a forum where several people eloquently praise Modi. The man deserves it. He’s by far the most efficient chief minister in this country. And contrary to popular perception, he’s *not* a mass murderer.

    Awesome metaphor though.

  9. It’s a shame when the general public prefers economic progress over communal harmony. That’s the way it appears to me after I see those surprising supporting comments for Narendra “Lucifer” Modi…..What good is the money when you cant live to enjoy it people? People like Modi are the ones who are taking the Divide and Rule principle to the next level……………. We are all Indians first ain’t we?

  10. @Aniket: You think?

    @Dumdum_er_aantel: 🙂

    @Uday: I know you aren’t Balbrain.

    @Raj: I wouldnt say “only in India” to that.

    @RKP: The scary thing is that there is no Neo.

    @Surendra: Thanks !

    @TheQuark: Suffice to say I do not need to explain my views. That would be like explaining the joke.

    @Last_Commenator: If not being a Modi fan-boy puts me into the pseudo-secular gang so be it dude. I have been called a right-wing Hindu nutjob before (oldtimers would remember one Akash Sen) and virulently anti-Congress—so any label you put doesn’t bother me in the slightest. On the other hand, I am assured that I have remained as independent politically as I have always wanted to be.

    @Vaibhav: Hmm.

    @Akasuna no Sasori: Thanks

    @Kishor: But he doesnt come from the South. Won’t that be a problem?

    @Asterix: All I want to know is why the question “How is homosexuality perceived in Pakistan?” go to the guy named Asim Butt.

    @Sourya: Agent Smith was not the villain. He was merely one side of an equation.

    @Akhil: Hmm.

    @Ravi Ivaturi: Yes I do. I remember almost everything from the three movies.

    @Tarzan: Yep. I do have a demented mind.

    @Turrtle: I am sure he does.

    @Rohit: Of course not.

    @Sourdough Pretzel: Hmm.

    @ArSENik: Would he now?

    @Whatsinaname: On the contrary, I have written picture posts before. Remember the “Ek Paal ka Jeena”?

    @Sharmistha: Heh.

    @Numb: Hmm.

  11. @Rohit:

    “And contrary to popular perception, he’s *not* a mass murderer.”

    I don’t think that is the popular perception. After all he wins every election.

    Unless…the Mass (Muslim) Murderer tag actually helps him win…

    Oh right.

  12. Swapan Dasgupta sure does hit the nail, right on its head. Too bad the poor guy is paying the price of being a true secularist in the otherwise sick and convoluted world of pseudo-secular mainstream journalism in India.

  13. Good one dude!

    So isn’t this a pic from Matrix – 3 (M-3)?
    And won’t Modi be the Chief Minister for the 3rd time (M-3)?

    Well, without giving away my own political stand over it; his becoming the chief minister this time is ‘inevitable’.

  14. What a beautifully written article by Swapan Dasgupta! Modi- the symbol of development, the future of modern India. Modi- the man who stands for everything that the dangerous CPM in Bengal doesn’t. Dynamic, affable, brilliant. Modi- a true champion. Soon to be reelected as the CM of the state where India’s greatest ever mass murderer was born.

    ” In addition, Modi invites aesthetic disdain. When beautiful people like Mallika Sarabhai and Aditi Mangaldas sneer at the Modi dispensation, they do so with all the condescension that Old Money reserves for the nouveau. Likewise, whereas Modi is almost friendless in the Old Media, he commands aggressive support among bloggers and netizens. ”

    The names of Rishi and HHBB should have been mentioned. They played a significant part in swaying the opinions of people brainwashed by the pseudo secular media.

  15. Heh heh…. moi has a different take.
    Just like Smith infects every other being in the Matrix, Modi Mian’s brand of demagogy and marketing-campaigns is creating more and more of him.

    BTW, despite my dislike of Modi and his politics I would like to see, for purely scientific reasons, how far he actually goes with all this. I mean, will he end up like a Thackeray, restricted to his pocket-boroughs of he indeed takes over the entire matrix. Then there’s the prospect of “Imam Mohdi” crashing down from the lofty heights he is today… bigger idols have tumbled in their own, haven’t they?
    PS: Speaking of heights, did anyone read Saba Naqvi Bhowmik’s article on Modi titled “The Hawk in Flight?”. A not so comprehensive model, I must say.

  16. Long time reader, first time poster.

    Modi is a great phenomenon. I was in chicago during 2002 riots in Gujarat. I denied the killing of innocent citizens. At that time, i thought Modi is another communal leader. But, after reading the development in Gujarat and hearing his speeches, he comes across as a good administrator and truly cares for his state. He believes in appeasement to none; that should be the policy. Psuedo secular parties don’t care about any development of people just their development.

    I like whatever Modi did and happy he will be winning election 2nd time.

    I hope he becomes one day PM of India. But, that will not happen because of secularists like Prakash Karat, LaLoo Yadav, Man Mohan Singh, Sonia Mano et al.

  17. I remember other “efficient leadesr” who wanted the trains to run on time, championed aggressive nationalism and relied on crony industrialists. They were hated by much of the old aristocracy, every kind of leftists. Not that they were very bothered about it, they eventually intimidated their opponents, exiled them or had them murdered. It’s a pity Benito and Adolph aren’t around to give him moral support.

  18. @ Red
    while u named hitler and benito….you missed out Vladimir (Lenin), Jozif (Stalin) and Mao 🙂

    absolute power leads to absolute corruption 🙂

  19. Well I guess I am a ‘nobody’-commentator here… I just wanted to say that it doesn’t matter who wins the election. Both the parties are to blame– maybe one a bit more than the other. Unless we ourselves step into the shoes of the administrators and be determined not to let our ideals go to the dogs, there’s not much political change in India in the near future.

    Maybe I sound too idealistic and even impractical, but that doesn’t matter much to me. And on another note, I’ve read how you’ve lashed out the frenzy over Rang De Basanti, but even to this day I believe that RDB was a superb movie seeing that it still spurs me to do good things– small ones surely, but nonetheless good. I guess you can call this difference in personal opinion (about the movie), which is quite unavoidable– after what’s individualism if not the occasional clash of opinions? And as an ardent believer in non-violence, I still can’t marvel at people who’ve decided that they must change something. The RDB gang did so only when they were personally hurt– and I’d have preferred people who react even before the trouble seeps down to them, but still ‘late’ is always better than ‘never’. As for RDB’s advocacy of gun-justice, I have only one thing to say– and that’s from my idol, Gandhiji: “I’d rather have a India full of violent people than an India full of cowards” (not sure about the actual words, but anyway, that’s what he meant to say). And maybe just to get the facts right, the RDB gang first went for a candlelight vigil, the ruthless and callous crushing of which led to the guys turning violent. Seems I’m trying too hard to justify the film, but I was just voicing my feelings about it (in the hope you take it as a sound debate). Something more: you can’t blame a film just because some people took it wrongly or fledgingly– after all, what more can you expect from the SMS and ‘franship’ generation? Hope you didn’t mind the long and possibly irrelevant comment, Arnab-da.

  20. @Yourfan2:

    “Modi- the symbol of development, the future of modern India. Modi- the man who stands for everything that the dangerous CPM in Bengal doesn’t. Dynamic, affable, brilliant. Modi- a true champion.”

    Fantastic. This kind of fandom has hitherto nly been seen for South Indian movie stars! Keep it up. You might even get to see him or touch his feet some day. Then you attain nirvana and die happy. 🙂

  21. Ah Debolin! You need proof is it? Well, well, here you go!

    “I played for Mumbai, but I am, from Mangalore, right here in Karnataka,” Ravi Shastri, the former Indian captain, boomed, and as master of ceremonies, he had everyone’s attention.

    http://content-www.cricinfo.com/icl/content/story/284778.html

    Does this answer your questions once and for all? You, Kishor, GB and all others.

    P.S. Mangalore, is I think, very much in Karnataka?

    P.P.S. The point is simple: Ravi Shastri only plays for Mumbai. He is a pukka Kannadiga. I will keep on repeating this till everyone accepts this-that he is a Kannadiga, and that by rights, along with Prasanna, Kumble, Dravid, Chandrashekhar, David Johnson, Dodda Ganesh-he too must be added to the panethon of Karnataka players. He is as much a Maharashtrian as Mukesh Ambani. This simple point, that where one is born does not mean you are from that place-any more than LN Mittal being Bengali by virtue of his birth.

    In any case, for most of the post-independence years, India’s team=Karnataka’s cricket team. Kannada=language of Indian dressing room.

  22. “Please do not call me for such things ever again. You should not expect help from me”
    -Modi to his brother who’s living in poor condition

    None of Modi’s brothers and sisters have been “elevated” even after Modi has been a CM for last six years. No contracts for them, no malls, petrol pumps etc.

    – Modi works from 6AM to 11PM every day
    – He camped in rural villages with his IAS officers to ensure girl child education when all the CMs (including of the Left hue and cry) were going to cooler places to get “investments”
    – 24 X 7 electricity in rural Gujarat. Neighbouring Maharashtra has 6 hrs ave load shedding even in semi-metros like Pune, Nagpur, Nasik…

    Check this from your favorite “secular” news channel to see who the real mass murders were. If you are not wearling blinkers you would check all the 3 videos

    http://ibnlive.com/videos/54453/12_2007/ftn_1812_1a/1984-riots-does-cong-have-blood-on-its-hands.html

  23. Rahul Gandhi, the chosen one?

    Think about it..

    that would make him the fourth nehru to fail (after nehru, indira and rajiv)..and we’ll have to wait till the seventh generation/incarnation for development.

    yup.. i think it’ll take at least three more generations for india to be truly first world..

    Then Chidambaram can be Morpheus.

    ‘I can show you what economics is Neo.. i can set you free”

    No, maybe not.

    @ Sawai Kishore..

    Prasanna, Kumble, Dravid, Chandrashekhar,… David Johnson, Dodda Ganesh!!! In the same category? Ha..ha.. as usual Venkatesh Prasad is forgotten.. not to mention Sunil Joshi or the great Gundappa Vishvanathan…

    Maybe Ravi Shastri is Cypher.

  24. fnatic v00,

    That’s clever writing, even for a Mohammeddan.

    You remind me of the Pakistani trained “holy warriors” who tried in vain to impersonate Indian Armymen while butchering 35 innocent Sikh civilians in a Jammu and Kashmir village (Chattisinghpora) on March 20,2000.

    I quote: “As they started firing, the gunmen shouted ‘Jai Mata Di’ and ‘Jai Hind’. In th eatrical fashion, one of them took swigs from a bottle of rum even as the killing went on. While leaving, one of the men called out to his associates: “Gopal, chalo hamare saath” (Come with us, Gopal).

    The killers at Chattisinghpora wore combat fatigues, waved a bottle of liquor around , told their victims that they had come to celebrate the Holi festival, and left shouting pro-India slogans.”

    Hope your handlers train you better to impersonate us Kafirs next time, my dear Momin.

    Hujur

  25. @Hujur:
    “fnatic v00,
    That’s clever writing, even for a Mohammeddan. ”

    All right, here we go! The first of the Holy Warriors is here!

  26. @Shan- Sure I can. But Id much prefer that you lead the way by going down on his feet first and asking for forgiveness for all your endeavors of portraying him so wrongly. He’s actually a very ‘liberal’ person like you. 🙂 Its just that he is a very able administrator who neither fears nor favors anyone.

  27. thats nice… eventuality is the least of my concern but its really amusing to see the way things go. just weeks back the PM Manmohan promised the state that the congress would look into the gujrat riots if they came to power. and all along u thought that WAS the day job!!!!

    ps: happier with the free color tvs down south! 🙂

  28. I am sure HHBB and Khujur will soon join Hujur and Yourfan2 in turning this into the usual kill Muslim fest now. UNless Arnab writes another post – fast.

    In which case the holy battleground moves to that comments section.

  29. Well, well, well…discussion on Modi is here again. Modi has become poster-boy of indian politics post-godhra in a somewhat similar manner Shahrukh has been of the bollywood for long. People just love to hate them. It’s just too “cool”, too intellectual and too comfortable to call him “mass murderer”, “merchant of death” and what not and put forward own’s secularity by lambasting him.
    Well, whether you love him or hate him, i think he is gonna stay there, not to mention the lack of competition, comprising of pathetic leaders and ex-CMs. however it would be interesting to see if he could make it to the center or would end up being exploited by the BJP to rake in party’s support on hindutva

  30. @ Shan

    Actually, i honestly wouldnt be surprised if the tag actually helped him win. The point is he does things for the electorate. He makes roads, bridges, schools cause they want it. He got Sohrabuddin killed caused the electorate felt that “kill him, kill him” was the right way to go. I’m not a gujju yet I feel immense pride that there’s atleast one guy in the political melting pot of this country with the balls to take gutsy decisions and then have the conscience to stand by them. Irrespective of whether he wins on Sunday, I’m sure that this guy would be the PM of this country someday. And i for one will definitely rejoice then.

  31. Irrespective of whether or not Modi wins on Sunday (I doubt he will get a good majority), his future in National level politics, has been systematically compromised by the pseudo-secular media.

    Even though he is PM material and probably the only leader who has the guts to deal with the “Mughalistan Corridor” threat, I really doubt if we will ever gather the fortune, wisdom and courage to elect him to lead India.

    I guess until then it will Jatha Praja, Thatha Raja…
    lets have glove puppets like MMS or baseline morons like Rahul Gandhi/Priyanka lead us instead….we deserve them.

  32. D anticpatn is kilng me…………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………………….

  33. whatever the election result…..
    in URBAN EDUCATED INDIA the CONGRESS I is dead….
    it will never come back into the hearts of middle class india again….

  34. @ Shouri:
    The Congress will never be dead…nor will other divisive politics based parties, especially in our part of the world).

    In India the equation is simple. (and people of India are to blame for it).

    1. Take the major “religious minority” community on your side (Muslim or Christians depending on the area) and suck up to them on your knees.

    2. Divide the majority Hindus in ALL possible lines and put a up a candidate of the largest jati/lingusitic/sub-jat group.

    You have won your seat.

    Abraham Lincoln’s said, “Elections belong to the people. It is their decision. If they decide to turn their back on the fire and burn their behinds, then they will just have to sit on their blisters”.

  35. actually, shan’s comment is very true
    if GB doesn’t post another article fast, this comment section will degenerate into another long argument, which only says the same things….

  36. here let me start the argument..

    i think this whole modi victory changing india’s political landscape is pure hype.

    he has already won the last election because of godhra. the matter was decided then. it is a non-issue now. godhra has been raked up because the opposition and press have nothing else to attack Modi with.

    irrespective of whether he wins (we’ll all know tomorrow), india will be the same place politically.

    the person to watch is mayawati. a solid majority in uttar pradesh with a little outside support from dalit aligned parties, throw in a dose of coalition politics and bang.. you are prime minister.

    at best this election is an INTERNAL referendum on LOCAL gujarat politics (especially for the Keshubahi/Patel faction). despite any ideology, the BJP (and more notably, the Congress) have no hope in hell in coming to power in UP without some considerable house cleaning in that state organization.

    mayawati winning will lead to a tumultuous (maybe overdue) social revolution in india (more reservations etc). however, this will have a major economic cost. The BJP will at the minimum protect the economy and despite its pretensions..it will not rock the boat socially..

    you have to remember that when the BJP came to power it was Atal Bihari Vajpayee not Advani who was the acceptable candidate for the post of PM. i believe this his caused Advani to soften leading to bizarrely praising Jinnah in Pakistan. But hello.. hello… he’s the official party prime ministerial candidate.

    Modi will never become PM unless he also does something like what Advani did elevating his position from two-bit rabble rouser to a statesman. Otherwise in these days of coalition politics he doesn’t have a hope in hell. Whose the hardliner now bitch?

  37. Looks like Narendrabhai will continue the good work.
    A ton of thanks to the ELMM (english language mainstream media). As I watch Rajdeep Sardesai frothing with his head up his colon…it gives a strange feeling of deja-vu….a la 2002.

  38. We need strong right and left wing both. No democracy progresses with one kind of “ism”
    Liberalism and Conservatism is both needed. India has seen an overdose of “pseudo secular liberalism/socialism” in last 50 years. It’s time to restore some balance.
    Every where. Even media will have to readjust after Gujarat elections.

    Despite the relentless onslaught on Modi, all NGOs who forgot the true “merchant of deaths” ruling in Delhi, Modi has given the most resounding slap to all these so called “uber-cool-liberals” of India.

    Modi’s victory is victory of Development and loss of politics of appeasement.

    100 years back Gujarat gave us a Gandhi. May be it now owes us a Modi

  39. Yes Rishi-bhai.May the killing of Muslims continue. I sincerely hope dear sir,since I know you have a family,that your female loved one also meets the same fate as the Jihadi women Gujjubhai Modi’s chelas enjoyed. I will then say “Let the good work continue”.

  40. Albdie wrote:
    I sincerely hope dear sir (Rishi Khujur),since I know you have a family,that your female loved one also meets the same fate as the Jihadi women Gujjubhai Modi’s chelas raped

    @ albdie
    Trust me many of my Hindu sisters and mothers are meeting that fate every date at the hands of jihadis… so are many of my sisters who are trapped in Islam.

    I know the pain.

  41. Yes Rishi I know.I hope the Jihadists continue their good work also. Why just the catch-all Hindu brothers and sisters Rishi-bhai, I sincerely hope they strike closer to home with their “good work”?

  42. @ Albdie
    The followers of Quran have been and will do that even without you wishing for it.

    I have nothing to say in your hearfelt desire to have someone close to me be raped by Jihadis.

  43. I had a few questions for Rishi-bhai.

    1. If Modi’s disciple rapes a Muslim woman,how does that make things any better for any Hindu brother or sister(except of course the Hindu brother who is ejaculating)?

    {Kindly give a straight answer to this question without posting links to random websites and without desperate googling.}

    2.If you are so very concerned about your Hindu brother and sister, why are you 24/7 in the comments section in this blog? Do you think that benefits your Hindu brothers and sisters? I am someone who participated in relief efforts during the Tsunami helping some Indian brothers and sisters (all of whom happened to be Hindu): where were you then? Googling?Spewing hate?Trying to get into some Hindu brother or sister?

    The election results,as this post hints,were inevitable. As someone who grew up in Gujarat, I found the state to be full of narrow-minded, poorly educated,culturally-emaciated people who define themselves by hating Muslims and anybody who is not a Gujarati. That includes people from the South and the East. Modi is the hero(ine) of the collective Gujarati Hindu wet-dream. This election, to me, is less about Modi and more a reflection on the medieval bloodthirstiness of Gujaratis.

  44. @Vaibhav: The rape of Kashmiri Hindu women justifies the rape of Muslim women in Gujarat? Justifying rape eh?I can see who is frustrated dear.Get laid. Seriously.

  45. @ Albdie

    I am not only concerned about the Hindu brothers and sisters who are effected by Jihad but also the Muslim brothers and sisters who are slaves of the Quran.

    You hardly know me…still your aspersions are well recieved.

    Your diatribe against Gujratis is quite unfortunate.

  46. @Rishi: See you could not even answer my straight question? Take away the link posting and the googling: feels like castration doesn’t it?

    So here’s another one.When Modi’s friends violated those Muslim women, were they freed of the tyranny of the Quaran?

    Please feel free this time to Google and post links of your Hindu hate-site, if only to help to focus your mind on the question being asked.

    “Your diatribe against Gujratis is quite unfortunate.”

    Your ceaseless hate-mongering on India’s best blog for the last few months is indeed even more unfortunate.FYI, I am not confusing you with your Hindu brother Hujur whose intellectual dishonesty (a common trait of Sanghis) was so well exposed recently. I am talking about you Khujur.

  47. Well since justifying the rape of Muslims does not stifle your argumentative juices, why should this?

    I only wish that the fate that you wish on Muslims befalls you personally. So that we can say “keep up the good work” to your tormentors just as you do.

    Still unable to answer the question of how Modi rid the country of the tyranny of Islam! Don’t stress yourself, I seriously was not expecting an answer.

    GB, In case I sound a bit too strong, I have been to Gujarat post-riots. Before Vaibhav pipes in, I have been to Kashmiri Hindu refugee camps also. I have held an orphan 10 month old while his sister, just 10 years of age, told me what was done to her mother and her 14 year old elder sister by people shouting pro-Modi slogans while the police taunted them asking them to go to Pakistan when they asked for help.

    So when people like Rishi label such acts as “good work”, I see him as no different from those rapists.

    I have heard horrible stories from Kashmiri Hindus too and would react with the same venom if someone said that Kashmiri Muslim politicians did “good work” in turning out Hindus. So would Rishi of course, in that case.

  48. dear albdie

    As I have mentioned before. Modi or a person like Modi is the right person to deal with the “Mughalistan corridor” scenario. That in addition to his sterling administrative and developmental skills.

    Would you like me to go in detail on “Mughalistan Coridor”?

  49. No I know your “the world is coming to an end” theories.

    But why do you think Modi is the ideal person to deal with the Mughalistan corridor issue? Because he has killed more Mughals than anyone else? Because his minions have put their seed inside Muslim women? Because other than that, I don’t know what he has done to solve your “Muslims will convert us all” problem.

  50. @ Albdie
    The world coming to an end??

    I dont resort to such Quranic predictions of “Quyamat”.

    Mughalistan Corridor-
    One of the world’s most stregically important pieces of land LYING BETWEEN PUNJAB THROUGH HARYANA, AVADH, BIHAR and BENGAL.

    Why strategically so important?
    The only piece of land that BREAKs the connection between a the Core Islamic Middle Eastern World (Turkey/North Africa to Paksitan) and populous Fringe Islamic world (Bangladesh, Malaya, Indonesia)

    What the threat is in “Mughalistan Corridor”.
    Disproportionate demographic change in favor of Islam at district level leading to high “threat perception” of a “Beirut Effect”.

    How Modi or someone like Modi would help?
    1. Willingness to take strong and sound political decisions to deal with threat perceptions (Uniform Civil Code, sringent birth control…)
    2. Economic growth and trans-caste inclusiveness
    3. Pro-action in eliminating Islamic “ummah” aproach at the community level by empowering social and law enforcement agencies to do their job fearlessly and confidently.

  51. Yippeeeee! Modi wins. Have been watching NDTV all day just to enjoy the look on the faces of those anchors. This feeling beats orgasm.

  52. @Ravi Ivaturi: “your liberal party”

    In all the comments made by Albdie above, did you come across the name of any ‘party’? Oh sorry, were you using the smoke and mirrors part of your argument?
    In the absence of logical responses, fall back on stereotypes and insinuations. But then, what’s new?

    Dislike of Modi’s politics=love for people burning small Sikh kids.
    Dislike of Modi’s politics=love for jihadis

    How simple the world is!!

  53. @DeepThirdman-

    “Yippeeeee! Modi wins. Have been watching NDTV all day just to enjoy the look on the faces of those anchors. This feeling beats orgasm.”

    :):):)Awesome. Yes its a surreal feeling. As the great Gilmour wrote in Learning to Fly:

    “A dream unthreatened by the morning light
    Could blow this soul right through the roof of the night
    Theres no sensation to compare with this
    Suspended animation, a state of bliss
    Cant keep my eyes from the circling skies
    Tongue-tied and twisted just an earth-bound misfit, I.”

  54. Pakele/Albdie: i was only curious to know if you guys have views about Rajiv Gandhi (“nani yaad dila denge”) and Sikh Riots or your pathological hatred is only restricted to Modi and Gujarat?

    Was it too much to ask?

  55. @Rishi Khujur/Hujur/HHBB/assorted other ids: So I am Christian and should be celebrating? LOL. On the contrary, your rapist guru has won and so it should be you celebrating. Time to pull your trousers down and salivate for the bounty to come for sampling some Mughalistan wares, aint it?

    Why let me go? Considering you couldnt give one straight answer to any of my questions?

    I of course let the “I must be a Congressite who supported the 84 Sikh riots” pass as I am quite aware of the security-blanket right wingers clutch to when peeing inside their saffron chaddis. The security blanket being that anyone who does not endorse the rape of Muslims must be a Muslim Jihadi/Christian missionary/Congress party member/lastname Maino/ Bangladeshi migrant/Communist.

  56. @ Albdie
    Fair enough mate…. continue your abuse.
    Christmas is a holiday for everyone to enjoy..we all have been doing it…from before Christian era.
    Dont put words in my mouth… You are just inventing your own labels.
    Go through my posts…I gave a clear answer to what you asked, ie, why Narendra Modi or someone like him is a good choice for PM?
    Ofcourse I can never respond to your heartfelt wishes of having my family women raped nor can i ever think of competing with your necromancy.

  57. But Rishi, you also wished my family to be raped. Didnt you say “Keep up the good work” to Narendra-bhai’s pogrom of rape and murder of Muslims? After all, I may be Muslim. Right?

  58. @ Albdie
    Thats your problem.
    “Keep up the good work” to Narendra Bhai and leaders like him, was not just for their ability to contain the disease of Quran.
    It was also for Jyotigram, fantastic and honest governance, lack of red-tapism and the ability to make Gujarat and possibly (in future) India, a strong and prosperous nation.

    Albdie, maybe u r a Muslim…maybe you are not…but one thing is certain…YOU DO BELIEVE IN THE MESSAGE OF THE QURAN…your desires and wishes speak for themselves.

    Leave Islam….the rest of humanity awaits you safe return.

  59. @Rohit:

    “He got Sohrabuddin killed caused the electorate felt that “kill him, kill him” was the right way to go.”

    Extremely telling comment from you. This mean you have actually pared down democracy to giving the mob what they want, regardless of the ruls of law or any moral codes whatsoever.

    Actually that was the same tactic used by Romans to keep their people happy – gladiatorial contests and prisoners being killed by hungry lions.

    Similar popular mass executions were performed by the Taliban (again without any legal intervention) to keep small villages happy and fed on their version of the “vibhatswa ras”.

    So Modi is just practicing that version of democracy that all medieval (temporal or figurative) regimes do – give the mob what they want. In this case if it is Muslim blood they want, so be it.

    It is an interesting version of democracy, this minimalist one. It’s just that at some time other states might also catch on to this version. As for the mob, remember it is fickle.

  60. @Shan
    “In this case if it is Muslim blood they want, so be it.”
    Does that mean you identify all Gujarat Muslims or even Indian Muslims with Sorabuddin. Does demanding that Afzal Guru should be hung means that one is anti-Muslim?? Dude please change your views about the community.

  61. it seems nobody is interested in debating the future of modi’s political career, but let me continue my monologue..

    the thing i learnt in the debate about godhra on this website was the massive number of hindus killed by the police in quelling the riots.

    so this whole idea about the Modi going to usher in Ram rajya is premised on thin ice.

    one should also know that right now the BJP is in the control of the incompetent lobby lead by Rajnath Singh because of the support of the Sangh. the combine opposed to him is Advani-Jaitley-Modi. this election is a massive victory for the lobby.

    and do you know what is their single most objective?

    freeing the party from the Sangh.

    i am all for a country ruled by Advani-Jaitley-Modi. they will be much better the Chamcha party and their commie supporters.

    but ram rajya.. ha ha.. in your dreams people.

  62. @ albie:

    “I found the state to be full of narrow-minded, poorly educated,culturally-emaciated people who define themselves by hating Muslims and anybody who is not a Gujarati”

    the latter ‘anybody who is not a gujarati’ was the most important part of the modi victory.

    but this hatred of outsiders is not restricted to gujaratis alone. it is so consistent in regional politics that its almost a unifying factor (Tamil pride, Kannadiga pride, Marathi pride, Ganguly pride, gay pride etc)

    modi will find it hard to tap into such a ready groundswell of political sentiment on the national level.

  63. An interesting article by B Raman on mainstream English media and its behaviour towards Hindu revivalists
    http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/dec/24raman.htm

    “They would have noticed that in the Hindu Diaspora in the West, more young people admire Modi than grown-ups. Many of his young admirers in the US were born and brought up there and had the benefit of the best of secular education. In spite of this, there is a sense of pride in them that the Hindu community has at long last produced a leader of the calibre of Modi”.

  64. B Raman ji’s concluding para says it all…..
    “They are secular in the genuine sense of the word, but for them secularism does not mean developing a guilt complex about being a Hindu and all the time conceding the rights of others. They do not accept the argument that a Hindu, who asserts his rights, ceases to be a secularist”.

  65. @Albdie: no straight answers dude. just going round and round.
    ok, no problem. i understand your frustration

    btw, how many of you feel that Modi actually won because UPA/Lalu/Media/Commies actually helped him by keeping Godhra on the radar for 5 years? By not allowing Gujarat to move on, these people actually helped Gujarat be polarised.

    Constant , relentless attack, keeping Saudi funded “NGOs” camped in Gujarat 24 X 7, nitpicking on every small details in Gujarat, demonizing Modi and inviting backlash – didn’t it all help him ultimately?

  66. @WTF: Allow me to disagree. This hatred of outsiders is not a characteristic of all states. In Bengal for instance, the CPIM never makes Bengali pride an election issue. Taking out processions in support of Ganguly may be silly but it is way more benign than the rabidly violent anti-outsider feeling championed by Modi in Gujarat and the Bal-saheb in Mumbai.

  67. shan to yourfan2:
    “You might even get to see [modi] or touch his feet some day. Then you attain nirvana and die happy.”

    shan,
    Don’t be jealous of yourfan2 now. Instead, you can kiss modi’s knickers (Hint: You have a choice of color: khakhi or saffron). Then you too can attain nirvana and die happy. 🙂
    Your coprophagic buddies (Albdie/Pakele) can kiss modi’s chuddies. Then they too will be saved and sent to paradise. 🙂

  68. Total word count of post – 15
    Total word count of comments (not count this post) – 7500

    Comment size/post size – 500/1.

    Way to go boys (and girls)!!

    Btw Modi won, Sonia still will not take responsibility, BJP still confused, RSS still marginalized, Left still on its high horss….i.e. nothing has changed.

  69. @rishi_khujur:
    “Let Pakele/Albdie go man…
    Its Christmas..let him celebrate”

    I’m sure you’re trying to say something. You’re kind of difficult to understand when you’re not abusing muslims.

    And yeah, merry christmas to you too…:-)
    Sorry, aapka dharam bhrasht to nahi ho gaya?

  70. @the khujur:
    “Pakele/Albdie”

    Ok…it’s like this…
    Pakele: Person 1
    Albdie: Person 2
    Referring to them as two entities would be appreciated.

    Kind of like,
    Gujarati Muslim 1 killed in Ahmedabad.
    Gujarati Muslim 2 killed in Baroda.

    See, now you get it! Simple, na?

  71. @ rishi khujur:

    you seem to fancy the idea that b. raman proposes:

    “Many of his young admirers in the US were born and brought up there and had the benefit of the best of secular education.”

    according to wikipedia, america is 73.9% white and 76.7% christain. the next largest grouping being atheists. all other religions come in at around less then 1% (judaism is 1.4%).

    It is the only republican ‘secular’ western country which mentions God in its constitution and prints His name on the currency. each president has to put on a dazzling display of christain devoutness to secure chances to be elected and in Barrack Obama’s case even this is not enough to ward off accusations that he is a closet muslim.

    but apparently, being exposed to this sort of unidimensional culture puts people in a better position to judge ‘true’ secularism when they see it.

    like bobby jindal for example… there’s a person proud of his hindu indian origins.

    or maybe our burra brown sahibs, the learned ABCD’s, educated in the west know better as always, eh?

  72. arre WTF:
    That was B Raman’s opinion not mine. (about many US borns)
    Ofcourse, I agree with you that American education system is far from being perfectly secular. It it were secular, we would not need these,

    http://www.capeem.org/
    http://www.eshiusa.org/

    I think some of the reason’s why Hindus in America are more in support of Hindu revivalism are:

    1. Matru-bhoomi being America to them, Bharat and the land of origin of Hindu Dharma remains their Punya-bhoomi.

    2. Prosperity and better living standards frees up more time for ‘Bauddhik chintan’ and consequently gives them a better chance of seeing the value of Dharma and ground realities from a wholistic vantage point.

    3. The universal connectivity of WWW, available at every nook and corner, provides them a better and easier way of looking up facts and realities. Even lies and propaganda too.

    Most importantly, the ability to be American/ Europeans/Africans/Malaysians and at the same time being Hindus has been the feature of this decade.

    Before, in the 60’s American born Hindu kids would be asked by their “secular” parents to call themselves “Indians” because, these Nehruvian era parents didnt have the balls to call themselves Hindus (thanks to Indian secular education).

    Then the children would not only NOT call themselves “Indian” but also start hating Hindu Dharma (Bobby Jindal is a fitting example).

    Now, unlike the pseudo secular Indian media (which still calls Malaysian Hindus as Malaysian Indians), American first generations have realized that the kids born here ar not Indians but HINDUS. American HINDUS, India is just their Punya-Bhoomi

    This clarity of thought is improving things…but much more needs to be done. Talk to me after 15 more years and we will have much more to talk about 🙂

  73. arre WTF:
    That was B Raman’s opinion not mine. (about many US borns)
    Ofcourse, I agree with you that American education system is far from being perfectly secular. It it were secular, we would not need these,

    http://www.capeem.org/
    http://www.eshiusa.org/

    I think some of the reason’s why Hindus in America are more in support of Hindu revivalism are:

    1. Matru-bhoomi being America to them, Bharat and the land of origin of Hindu Dharma remains their Punya-bhoomi.

    2. Prosperity and better living standards frees up more time for ‘Bauddhik chintan’ and consequently gives them a better chance of seeing the value of Dharma and ground realities from a wholistic vantage point.

    3. The universal connectivity of WWW, available at every nook and corner, provides them a better and easier way of looking up facts and realities. Even lies and propaganda too.

    Most importantly, the ability to be American/ Europeans/Africans/Malaysians and at the same time being Hindus has been the feature of this decade.

    Before, in the 60’s American born Hindu kids would be asked by their “secular” parents to call themselves “Indians” because, these Nehruvian era parents didnt have the balls to call themselves Hindus (thanks to Indian secular education).

    Then the children would not only NOT call themselves “Indian” but also start hating Hindu Dharma (Bobby Jindal is a fitting example).

    Now, unlike the pseudo secular Indian media (which still calls Malaysian Hindus as Malaysian Indians), American first generations have realized that the kids born here ar not Indians but HINDUS. American HINDUS, India is just their Punya-Bhoomi

    This clarity of thought is improving things…but much more needs to be done. Talk to me after 15 more years and we will have much more to talk about

  74. arre WTF:
    That was B Raman’s opinion not mine. (about many US borns)
    Ofcourse, I agree with you that American education system is far from being perfectly secular. It it were secular, we would not need these,

    http://www.capeem (DOT) org/
    http://www.eshiusa (DOT) org/

    I think some of the reason’s why Hindus in America are more in support of Hindu revivalism are:

    1. Matru-bhoomi being America to them, Bharat and the land of origin of Hindu Dharma remains their Punya-bhoomi.

    2. Prosperity and better living standards frees up more time for ‘Bauddhik chintan’ and consequently gives them a better chance of seeing the value of Dharma and ground realities from a wholistic vantage point.

    3. The universal connectivity of WWW, available at every nook and corner, provides them a better and easier way of looking up facts and realities. Even lies and propaganda too.

    Most importantly, the ability to be American/ Europeans/Africans/Malaysians and at the same time being Hindus has been the feature of this decade.

    Before, in the 60’s American born Hindu kids would be asked by their “secular” parents to call themselves “Indians” because, these Nehruvian era parents didnt have the balls to call themselves Hindus (thanks to Indian secular education).

    Then the children would not only NOT call themselves “Indian” but also start hating Hindu Dharma (Bobby Jindal is a fitting example).

    Now, unlike the pseudo secular Indian media (which still calls Malaysian Hindus as Malaysian Indians), American first generations have realized that the kids born here ar not Indians but HINDUS. American HINDUS, India is just their Punya-Bhoomi

    This clarity of thought is improving things…but much more needs to be done. Talk to me after 15 more years and we will have much more to talk about

  75. Modi won ‘cos people can’t see anybody else giving ’em Progress with a capital P.

    A secular view of Christmas in the remotest corner of the universe.

    The gods in my mum-in-laws thakurer ashon,
    Lakshmi, Ganesh, Satya Narayan, RamKrishna-SaradaMa, ShibThakur, RamThakur, Hanuman (gift)—-same for the others— Tipupati, VaishnoDevi, Jagannath-Shubhadra-Balaram (visit to Puri by student),
    are treated to nakuldana-batasha everyday. On special pujodays– lovely lucious sandesh.
    So on Christmas, while we were feasting on cakes, pudings and other rich comestibles, would our gods go HUNGRY?
    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

    But egg-laden cakes! Oh, anathema!
    So, in steps Adi RamKrishna Mistanna Bhandar.
    Jhontuda bakes Milk-cake and decorates the entire lot– 10X10X6 cm cube with curlicues of cream!

    This wonderful concoction of east-meets-west offered to the aforementioned gods.

    Gods extremely happy.
    Sends blessing.
    Husband says that my chippolita ‘was quite edible’.

  76. arre WTF:
    That was B Raman’s opinion not mine. (about many US borns)
    Ofcourse, I agree with you that American education system is far from being perfectly secular. It it were secular, we would not need these,

    www DOT capeem DOT org/
    www DOT eshiusa DOT org/

    I think some of the reason’s why Hindus in America are more in support of Hindu revivalism are:

    1. Matru-bhoomi being America to them, Bharat and the land of origin of Hindu Dharma remains their Punya-bhoomi.

    2. Prosperity and better living standards frees up more time for ‘Bauddhik chintan’ and consequently gives them a better chance of seeing the value of Dharma and ground realities from a wholistic vantage point.

    3. The universal connectivity of WWW, available at every nook and corner, provides them a better and easier way of looking up facts and realities. Even lies and propaganda too.

    Most importantly, the ability to be American/ Europeans/Africans/Malaysians and at the same time being Hindus has been the feature of this decade.

    Before, in the 60’s American born Hindu kids would be asked by their “secular” parents to call themselves “Indians” because, these Nehruvian era parents didnt have the balls to call themselves Hindus (thanks to Indian secular education).

    Then the children would not only NOT call themselves “Indian” but also start hating Hindu Dharma (Bobby Jindal is a fitting example).

    Now, unlike the pseudo secular Indian media (which still calls Malaysian Hindus as Malaysian Indians), American first generations have realized that the kids born here ar not Indians but HINDUS. American HINDUS, India is just their Punya-Bhoomi

    This clarity of thought is improving things…but much more needs to be done. Talk to me after 15 more years and we will have much more to talk about

  77. TO RISHI KHUJUR, HUJUR, YOURFAN, SHOURIDEB & ALL OTHER PRO-HINDU PRO-INDIANS WHO HAVE MANAGED TO REALISE THE IMPERATIVE OF HINDUTVA FOR SURVIVAL

    Guys, congratulations on a spectacular victory. I hope this marks a watershed in Indian history. At least it has provided a much needed shot in the arm.

    The intelligent Gujarati electorate has clearly demonstrated that it will not be swayed by idiotic Congresspeak (Sonia’s language seems to be descending to those employed by busti-wallis).

    I may be away for a few more days, but will be back after that.

    TO WTF & OTHER PRO-INDIANS WHO ARE STILL W.I.P IN GAUGING THE HINDUTVA IMPERATIVE

    Again, felicitations on BJPs grand victory.

    I’m not ‘rubbing it in’. As I have always maintained, whatever steps Modi undertook to quell the riots (and they were extensive, as Rishi’s facts prove), I personally believe he could have done more. I still believe that the Godhra vengeance is like the Dresden bombing. A cruel act, but in the vast dreary annals of WWII, a blip in the ongoing 1,200 year old continuing horrific genocide of Hindus.

    I seriously believe that this victory will prove beneficial for all pro-Indians, you as well as us. Thus my sincerely well-intentioned felicitations.

    TO SHAN
    mmm …….. mmm ……. Merry Christmas ??

  78. @ SHAN : that was the same tactic used by Romans to keep their people happy – gladiatorial contests and prisoners being killed by hungry lions.

    Actually, no. The exact comment by Juvenal was that the Romans mollified their masses with “”BREAD & CIRCUSES. The Romans used the rule of law (harsh but perhaps necessary in those awful times), peace (Pax Romana), an extensive communication network, and mass entertainment (gladiatorial contests as well as theatres and chariot races) to keep their people happy.

    You should see beyond the drearily repeated deluge of hackneyed phrases (Rome burnt Chrsitians to keep its people happy) to create a comprehensive image of a community (here the Romans)

    @ SHAN : Similar popular mass executions were performed by the Taliban (again without any legal intervention) … [Modi is the same].

    I see. So Modi’s stellar performance in accelerating social, economic, tribal as well as educational development, coupled with granting protection from the terrorist state at our borders, now equates him with the Taliban.

    This is a bizarre and meaningless comparison. At worst, Modi was temporarily inactive on one incident. At ‘best’, the Taliban is a mas murdering nihilistic horde of demons.

    PS : Without the burning of completely innocent Hindu women and children in Godhra, there would be no Godhra ‘reaction’.

  79. @ Albdie : “Rishi Khujur/Hujur/HHBB/assorted other ids: .. your rapist guru has won and so it should be you celebrating. Time to pull your trousers down and salivate for .. Mughalistan wares

    Albdie. You are displaying your mindset. Not mine.

    My guru is not a rapist. It is becoming increasingly obvious who your’s is. He was a rapist. Of kids

  80. Saffron Surge

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-2649668,prtpage-1.cms

    25 Dec 2007, Tarun Vijay

    When my book titled Saffron Surge was released recently in Delhi and Chennai, I didn’t realise that the signs to further reinforce my hopes for a nationalist upsurge sweeping the country would shine so brightly from Gandhi Nagar.

    Modi had to win. There was no alternative. The noises opposing him, representing secular ‘civility’, often used the most ugly, rather abusive language who hoped for a last minute ‘miracle’ to see him lose. It didn’t happen. And so, for the fourth time BJP and for the third time, Modi is ruling Gujarat. The impact of the win was spontaneously tremendous. As if another nuke test, a Pokaran III has occurred, making nationalists happy and proud.

    Gujarat turned India

    I was in Rameshwaram, just outside the world famous temple when the news of Modi’s win started pouring in. And people over there, the last tip of our southern side turned ecstatic, as if overpowered with a saffron surge. The enthusiasm and joy on the faces of pilgrims and local Tamils, none having anything to do with Gujarat’s politics was showing up and they loved it. The SMSes I got, a dozen a minute were mostly from outside Gujarat, with the same euphoric sense of victory that had crossed all boundaries and barriers.

    The saffron in Gujarat was transformed instantly into a national victory of some sorts which was difficult to explain but easy to feel. Gujarat suddenly became India for a moment and the best of psephologists too forgot there was a Himachal battling the same ballot war. No, Gujarat was the issue, the election and the battleground between ideologies that will now be reflected on a larger screen in the ensuing Lok Sabha polls.

    After all Modi, a provincial Chief Minister had to be combated by the supreme leader of the UPA and Congress president and that defined the war zones. She and her son both proved a non-starter in an election that demanded real grit and mettle politically.

    A vilified hero

    Modi. Narendrabhai.

    Never in our post-Independence political history, a person was so vilified, abused and attacked as him and his rise and rise again has also been an unprecedented phenomenon that is bound to change the colour and content of political dialogue at the national level. His appeal to the youth and women is seen to be believed, and I too couldn’t trust my eyes when I saw the younger element overwhelmingly present in his meetings. He has certainly caught the imagination of the Gen X. Compare it with the flag bearers of secularism.

    The hate and poison injected in the rallies and political discourses of V P Singh, Lalu, Paswan and leaders of the Left and Dravida Munnetra variety divide, fragment and institutionalise animosities for each other. Such seculars would get their vote share by creating a ghost of the rivals’ ideologies and organisations.

    Fragmentation, bending backwards to bow before sectarian fissiparous tendencies, hosting foreigners as voters, humiliating Hindus as a tool to attract non-Hindu votes. This describes the brigade that vehemently opposed BJP’s ascendancy in Gujarat.

    But to the local voters, Modi symbolised a leader who is harsh on corrupt, non-performer, terrorist and communal hate monger. People believe he brought Narmada waters, put new life in the otherwise dried up stream of Sabarmati, powered villages and helped turn deserts into green lands, implemented new innovative schemes for women and girl child, brought administration under effective control, never hesitated to assert his ideological colours and took pains to invite unbelievable amount of foreign and domestic investment in the state thus earning kudos from fiercest critics as well.

    What else do you expect a Chief Minister to deliver? Before elections, there were reports to paint him as arrogant, who doesn’t help friends, and keeps a contemptuous distance from Pariwar organisations. And now that he has won, his detractors say his accessibility would be rather more difficult than ever as he is now on ‘fourteenth level of clouds’. Usual things that are always said about the persons one doesn’t like. But, whom would you believe, people who voted him or those who deserted him?

    Danger zone

    So Modi showed his mettle. Done. Now what next?

    Definitely by astounding his rivals so neatly, Modi has entered the most dangerous zone of his career. His foes are bitter and shall wait every inch to bring him down, every step he takes would be watched and monitored too closely not to give him a space for manoeuvring, his commitment would be on a perpetual fire –test and having reached a climax even before he enters a higher play field, and expectations from him going wild, the sensitive question – how shall he protect himself from the ‘feared fatal fallout of fame’, can only be left in his deft hands and to the will of god. He has to succeed for a greater cause and for that he should be certainly having those friends around him who can criticise him and sound him caution in his high-profile path of deliverance.

    A Modi win has also put in perspective the issue of leadership India wants. On one side are those who are pusillanimous, can’t even keep their offices and airports clean and citizen-friendly, provide security to the patriotic, have stinking personal riches but remain unconcerned to the public services, institutions and peoples’ woes, who won’t touch a dilapidated footpath dargah but take enormous pride in demolishing an icon of faith and Hindu heritage like Ram Sethu, provide communal budget and reservations for a vote bank and look apologetic when Supreme Court confirms capital punishment to a traitor.
    Leaders with these attributes make a solid block of Ayodhya haters, Godhra erasers and mechanical silencers to the cries of Kashmiri Hindu refugees. They are popularly known as seculars. Powerful people in media and governance.

    On the other side, the Saffron ones want equal rights and duties of all citizens without considering or discriminating on the basis of their ways of worship, elimination of the majority-minority syndrome, ensuring none is appeased, honourable and safe return of Kashmiri Hindus and deleting the divisive provision of 370 from Constitution, taking up the ruthless elimination of terrorists and their protective modules, paving way to prosperity and an invincible security. In the nutshell, the fight that has been unleashed is between Saffronites and the Sohrabuddinites.

    India has to emerge stronger and wealthier in this war of nerves. Especially on economic front – that’s the demand of Hindutva.

    ‘No Gopal with empty stomach’ and ‘build body before mastering Geeta’ are the old sayings authenticated by spiritual masters. Every day in RSS shakhas, Swayamsewaks offer their salutations to Mother India with a resolve on their lips to make nation supremely prosperous and glorious. Path to Nirvana passes through road to Lakshmi! Hence the nation should unshackle itself from the yawning gap between planning and applied vision. Strengthening manufacturing sector, enhancing quality of science education and producing more engineers and researchers in pure sciences, improving the standards of research and revolutionising the entire gamut of higher education with better facilitated and equipped universities are the immediate tasks before us.

    Who is looking into these areas? With China growing at 9% and having an investment/GDP ratio at around 40%, we need to take a serious note of our standing in next ten and twenty years. Shall we remain mired in petty political games or the national outlook be allowed to override smaller concerns? That’s the question India should be ready to answer.

    The collective resolve

    It’s definitely not Modi’s fight alone but it belongs to the entire patriotic forces represented beyond the pale of communal divides and language barriers. The proverbial time for the resurrection of Somnath has been brought to this juncture by the sacrifices of thousands of workers and leaders. The talks that Modi has risen bigger than the organisation he belongs to, hurt him most.

    Let’s hope the march that has further fortified in Gujarat becomes a march of India, with just one cause in sight –glory of Bharat.

  81. GB, irrespective of whether you intended it to be this way or not, your blog’s commentspace has become just the latest in a long list of web communities in which pseudo-nationalists have permanently set up shop and turned into their ideological battlegrounds. Where every single topic of discussion invariably degenerates into diatribes against certain religions and communities. Bigotry masquerading as nationalism. Where logical responses are responded to with insinuations and banalities about one’s religious beliefs and ethnic backgrounds. Where empathy for fellow human beings is interpreted as stupidity, cowardice and self-hatred.
    Yes, I love free-speech as much as the next guy, and all of the above can be responded to in kind, with facts, structured arguments, and wit. And they have been. BY many intelligent and knowledgable commentators. But these are weapons of civilized debate, useless against people blinded by ideology, ready to brush aside facts, ready to abuse and offend, all the while convinced in their heart of hearts, that they are doing this for a higher cause.
    I guess, to put in in the simplest of terms, many of your readers don’t feel so welcome here any more. Too dramatic? Hopefully so. This is a wonderful blog and I’d hate to be right about this.

    I hope this comment will not be dismissed as a whine, for that is not what it is meant to be. But it is worth taking a look at the changing character of the comments on this blog.

  82. Someone here has said that Bengali pride is not an issue for the CPM etc, CPM does not equal Bengali sentimenet.

    Yeah right.Tell that to some more gullible person.

    One thing is for sure: The CPM in WB=SS in Maharashtra/DMK in TN/BJP in Gujarat/RJD in Bihar/Akali Dal in Punjab. Frankly, the CPM is a pure pati Bengali regional party, the DMK of Bengal. It is a Bengali regional party and an absouletly thug party at that.

    That is why it behaves the way it does:)

  83. The proof:

    Just look at all the things the CPM does. And of course, the small matter of 30 long years of uninterrupted rule. The Bengali people want the CPM. No doubt about it.

  84. @ rishi khujur:

    you’re confusing a minority identity crisis in america with the problems created out of minority appeasement in india.

    the issues that confront american hindus and indian hindus are like cheese and chalk. it’s like saying belgians should be worried about the fifteen churches burnt in orissa by the VHP on christmas eve.

    and what?

    “Prosperity and better living standards frees up more time for ‘Bauddhik chintan’ and consequently gives them a better chance of seeing the value of Dharma and ground realities from a wholistic vantage point.”

    ha ha.. good one as usual. so i take the answer to my question about the superiority of burra brown sahibs educated in the west to be.. a resounding yes!

    when hindutva does take over India .. then maybe we can have a zereoth class of hindus born and brought up in America who have chosen ‘bauddhik chintan’ over Paris Hilton… then the bloody poor and stupid Indian hindus with no time for ‘chintan’ as first class citizens.. then cows… then other religions if any..

    of course belonging to islam would have been criminalized by law and the koran banned, right?

    @ hhbb:

    welcome back.

    modi is bigger than any ideology now. so whether its a win for hindutva or not, we’ll only see in time.

  85. @ WTF

    Very interesting…how you turn a America based Hindu thinking about India’s wellbeing into a “Burra brown sahib” worthy of nothing.

    Sad mindset you have oh Koopa-mandup.

    So then Sri Aurobindo (who spent a considerable amount of his time in Europe), Rash behari Bose and oh….Mohandas Gandhi were all “burra brown Sahibs”.

    Dear WTF….
    Every travel, every interaction brings forth a new experience, a new perspective and new addition/subtraction to a persons perception of the world around him/her.

    The Rishi Khujur who lived in India is different from the Rishi Khujur who got a chance to travel around the world and gather its experiences.

    Just today I had a chance interaction with a ex-Bosnian Serb volunteer named Radul, had a hour-long discussion with him on the Balkan war. He introduced me to some startling points of views, I would have never known from reading tons of Time magazines and books by Alija Izetbegovic or tales of Arkan tigers.

    When I say that “Prosperity and better living standards frees up more time for ‘Bauddhik chintan’ and consequently gives them [Hindus] a better chance of seeing the value of Dharma and ground realities from a wholistic vantage point.”…

    I DO NOT by any means even think of negating the equally if not more important, contextual information and wisdom that a Vanavasi Hindu living in the dust bowls of Shahdol educates everyone about.

    O WTF..When we both have a common goal of that our Matri Bhoomi and Punya Bhoomi’s well being …remember this Vedic shloka.

    “Ayam nijah paroveti ganana laghuchetasam
    Udaracharitanam tu vasudhaiva kutumbakam”

  86. @ rishi khujur:

    “how you turn a America based Hindu thinking about India’s wellbeing into a “Burra brown sahib” worthy of nothing”

    it was you specifically quoted a paragraph from an article which mentioned that americans educated in the schools of the united states had exposure to a better secular education and therefore better judges of what constitutes secular politics.

    it was you who then defended that by saying that people living in the USA have the opportunity and resources to do ‘baudhik chintan’. as point 3, you even said:

    “The universal connectivity of WWW, available at every nook and corner, provides them a better and easier way of looking up facts and realities. Even lies and propaganda too.”

    im not exactly sure.. and pardon a koopa mandup (or any other Super Mario Brother character you may think i am) but we will have the internet in India very soon. its going to be released in mid-2019.

    now, you further qualify your blatantly neo-colonial opinion of the objectivity of western educated hindus by saying that travel and exposure makes people wiser. and this in the name of nationalism!

    “Sri Aurobindo (who spent a considerable amount of his time in Europe), Rash behari Bose and oh….Mohandas Gandhi were all “burra brown Sahibs”.”

    of course. before independence we did believe in the superiority of ‘sahibs’. and i am sure that being in conversation with serbians put you in that category as the abovementioed gentlemen. however, i was under the illusion that after sixty years of independence would have meant that we could dispense with that requirement.

    by your logic shilpa shetty should get an honorary doctorate because she possesses a well stamped passport. oh..wait.. i think someone’s already done that.

    your concern for india is much appreciated but better watch out for american politics as well. as my tennis coach used to say during the rapid ball hitting drill:

    ‘if you keep your eyes on two balls at the same time and you may have none left’

    or as it is said in America:

    thank you come again!

  87. @ WTF

    I have absolutely no problem if the knowledge of Hindu Dharma is promoted by a Sri Aurobondo (who by your definition achieved his prominence because he was Western educated) or by a Sri Ramkrishno Paramhansa or a Ramana.

    A Hindu living in the US or Africa or Guyana working for his “Punya Bhoomi Bharat” is the farthest you can get from Neo-colonialism.

    But then again, that will be hard for you to understand….
    if only you understood the meaning of the shloka I gave before.

  88. Heh Heh…. these “Hyper-Hindus” who live in constant friction with their surroundings in the US/Europe actually have baser reasons for trying to beef up this Muscular Hindu image. The social/cultural burden of living in an difficult foreign land weighs heavily upon their shoulders…. The fact that their professional successes does not bring in an equivalent political/social power makes it even more painful. After all, they are still “Brown Heathens from a 3rd world Nation with armies of cows on pot-holed roads”. Look what Jaguar reps said when Tata made a bid for the Jaguar line of cars….. and the “Monkey Money” comment…. and Bush snubbing Diwali and OEH snubbing Tata etc. Even Bobby Jindal, the favorite posterboy, takes considerable pain to not ID himself as an “Indian”….

    An extended, aggressive assertion of a safer identity, Hindu (i.e. more than “Indian” which brings is a politically confined and financially unsound imagery, and “India” has those… yuck, Muslims too in it) gives them some succor. This actually does make some sense OVER THERE. It’s when some of these windbags, armed with dollars and media-space (and aided by parochial, pseudo-nationalist political organizations like the BJP) try to “teach” Hindus in India (to be twue, 22 carat Hindus), living with large numbers of Muslims in the same localities, that things go belly up…. In India. These people never attempt to building bridges or undertake painstaking social-work in national integration, it’s a program of direct challenge, threats and counter-threats, restricted funding and outright vilification of non-confirming faiths/people. Something like the “aid cycle” which western nations use to fleece countries like us, most of these Hyper Hindus use their money to exact political/social capital for their narrow aims.

    Some of these people (I personally know a couple of such groups) actually think they can sell thir sugar-coated poison pill to Indians. Their stated “grand product” is the Future of India itself…. molded in their narrow, dry cleaned visions of Bharat. (I cringe whenever these d1ckheads take the term Bharat for their narrow, divisive and spiteful vision). And the sleights of hand they use, on the internet and outside, the ad-nauseams and the brand new Historiography are to be seen to be believed. Hey, ain’t we seeing it right here!
    But ultimately, these deluded Hyper Hindus from Yamerika and Yingeland are just old/middle aged men desperately trying to be Hindutva’s version of Syed Qutub… or say, Swami Vivekananda. I doubt if even 0.1% of these “Ivory Tower Cogitors” have a serious idea of India and the various dynamics that come into play in India. Their wives make samosa and nimbu-pani when these “great meets” are held and a lot of hot-air is generated; usually a seedy “representative” of the Sangh/BJP Overseas/extreme Hindutva NGO is also present indulging them (and feeding them info/cash). But after the meet it’s back to day-jobs and cozy ol’ internet war and maybe a monthly transfer of 50$ to their favorite organization. And to think these midgets have the temerity to compare themselves with giants like Gandhiji and Nehru and Aurobindo!

    Oh well, what the hell. This Lotus Eater “Macaulayite” is going back to rubbing warm peanut butter on his nipples and family jewels anyway. Imam Mohdi has won, my brethren! And all because of Pure Hindutva only! Yipeekkayayyyyyy!

  89. Wanderer wrote:
    This Lotus Eater “Macaulayite” is going back to rubbing warm peanut butter on his nipples and family jewels anyway.

    Rishi’s repsonse:
    Quite apt my friend…your description of yourself.
    Btw, what is wrong if every Hindu, whether in US or Guyana or Hawa-ii envision themselves as the present day Vivekananda’s.

    And where did you have “meets” with Samosa and “Nimbu Pani”… I need to go to those meets.

    Every time I go to Bharat, I end up in villages with pathetic Hindu girls fearing for their lives, while the pampered followers of Quran conduct Namaaz in the middle of National highways in full day traffic.

  90. rishi_khujur says:
    “Every time I go to Bharat, I end up in villages with pathetic Hindu girls fearing for their lives, while the pampered followers of Quran conduct Namaaz in the middle of National highways in full day traffic.”

    Muwahahahahaha…
    Seriously dude, you should find some way of providing background music with your comments…LOL!!

  91. my two bits of arm chair psychology:

    i think whatever drives sikh Canadians to seek a sikh homeland in khalistan, also drives hindus americans who want a hindu ‘bharat’. even maybe what drove jews and indian muslims for isreal and pakistan.

    the issue my friends is at what price are you going to indulge your crazed religion inspired irrationalities?

    each religious state is founded and sustained on the basis of thousands of deaths.

  92. @ Wanderer

    While I agree with your general point about some of the hidden agendas followed by certain hyper-Hindus, I am not so sure about a couple others

    • Being away confers objectivity, though it could be argued that it leads to alienation from every-day reality. I think- too much of every-day reality makes you intensely aware of the symptoms, but not necessarily cognizant of the roots of the problem
    • In this hyper-connected world, one could never underestimate the power internet wields over opinions, may not be of the majority – but one hopes eventually it would reach a critical mass, enough to make a difference. So I wouldn’t fault Rishi’s medium of message, though clearly I don’t agree with his message!

  93. @ anonymous
    check with the delhi police for the Friday Namaz on Gurgaon Delhi NH8.
    I am sure you will find your background music.

    @ WTF
    You touched upon a very interesting thought.
    Lets do a analysis of each of these cases you mentioned

    Hindus wanting India to be a Hindu nation.
    Sikhs wanting a separate Khalistan.
    The zionist movement.
    Muslims all over India wanting Pakistan (but staying back in pseudo secualr India tough after partition).

  94. @ WTF
    you will realize you will end up with more than enough reasos to actually want a Hindu india as the safest bet. Especially after you see why and who supported the formation of Pakistan

  95. After what happened in Pakistan don’t you guys think that so called minorities are safe and prospering in India.Gujrat alone has more than 30% market capitalisation of India so indirectly it feeds those so called secular ruled and economically ruined states of India.

  96. Well said Thakuma.
    http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/dec/28bhutto22.htm

    If the source of the Rediff report is accurate, then the world has seen the plight of a Muslim politician who leaned towards secularism, progress and democracy, three things which are apposite to the foundations of Islam. This again reaffirms the musings of that great modern day philosopher Rishi who said on this blog that Muslims were as much a victim of their religion as the rest of humanity.

  97. An interesting article by Arun Shourie

    [snippets]
    Your Hindutva (Hindu revivalism) is no different from Islamic fundamentalism’ — a fashionable statement these days, one that immediately establishes the person’s secular credentials…..

    There is this tectonic shift in the Hindu mind, a shift that has been going on for 200 years, which is being underestimated. The thousand years of domination and savage oppression by rulers of other religions; domination and oppression which were exercised in the name of and for the glory of and for establishing the sway of those religions, evinced a variety of responses from the Hindus……

    Entire article
    http://www.indianexpress.com/story/254969._.html

  98. Himachal has gone the BJP’s way today and the pseudo-secular dhimmi media is curiously quite. Botox bebe shaheedaized across the border has provided the perfect diversion for avoiding the embarrassment of reporting psec defeat in HP.

  99. WTF,

    The Sikh demand for Khalistan limited its territorial extent only to the Indian Punjab. This gave away their game and exposed their backers.

  100. “Sawai Kishore

    Someone here has said that Bengali pride is not an issue for the CPM etc, CPM does not equal Bengali sentimenet.

    Frankly, the CPM is a pure pati Bengali regional party, the DMK of Bengal. It is a Bengali regional party and an absouletly thug party at that.

    That is why it behaves the way it does:)”

    Absolutely true, there is an article by Swapan Dasgupta in Pioneer sometime ago saying exactly this. Therein lies the way to oust the commies. Some alternative party will have to be very shrill with Bengal’s issues in Delhi.

  101. @rishi_khujur
    thnaks for the link.
    excellent article.. i think following lines say it all

    “The three great religions that originated in Palestine and Saudi Arabia — Judaism, Christianity and Islam — have been exclusivist — each has insisted that it alone is true — and aggressive. The Indic religions — Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Sikhism — have been inclusive, they have been indulgent of the claims of others. But how may the latter sort survive when it is confronted by one that aims at power, acquires it, and then uses it to enlarge its dominion? How is the Indic sort to survive when the other uses the sword as well as other resources — organised missionaries, money, the state — to proselytise and to convert? Nor is this question facing just the Hindus in India today. It is facing the adherents of Indic traditions wherever they are: look at the Hindus in Indonesia and Malaysia; look at the Buddhists in Tibet, now in Thailand too.”

  102. Subrato wrote: “Botox bebe shaheedaized across the border ..”

    I quote Shekhar Gupta (India Today) and Nick Schifrin:

    “Benazir Bhutto’s belligerence fostered terrorism in the disputed Kashmir region and who once urged a crowd to cut an Indian governor into little pieces (in 1990).

    This is when the then prime minister, Benazir Bhutto, was shouting her slogans of azaadi, and exhorting the people of Kashmir to cut Jagmohan, then governor of the state, into pieces, as in “jag-jag, mo-mo, han-han”. She would say this while making chopping motions with her right hand as it moved from her left wrist to the elbow, leaving nobody in any doubt as to what she meant.

    Did India and Pakistan come close to a war [in 1990] without Or, more precisely, did Pakistan deliberately increase tension levels and then threaten India with a pre-emptive nuclear strike?

    The tension peaked when [the then prime minister] Benazir repeated her late father’s immortal boast of waging a thousand-year war against India.

    “She was very directly responsible for the jihad, directly inciting terrorists to intensify terrorism in India,” Ajai Sahni, the executive director of the New Delhi-based Institute for Conflict Management, told ABC News. “I would find it very difficult to find a single element with her relationship to India that is positive and for the betterment of her country or the region.

    Under Bhutto, the Taliban formed and, helped by Pakistan’s intelligence service, swept across Afghanistan and later hosted Osama bin Laden. Under Bhutto, anti-Indian terrorism in the disputed Kashmir region was fostered and increased.”

  103. As Pakistan’s prime minister, Benazir sponsored the brutal ethnic cleansing campaign against the gentle Pandits, Kashmiri Hindus.

    So, there may possibly be no tears shed for her by atleast the 0.5 million Pandit refugees and the families of 10,000 Hindus raped or killed in Jammu & Kashmir.

    Check out Benazir screaming for Jihad against India, in the video below.

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=eCRFWStxV_4

    This is a clip from the documentary by Ashok Pandit “And the world remained silent” – Part 1 (on the mass-murder and religious cleansing of Kashmiri Hindus):

  104. In the above video, Benazir clearly states who her Arabic inspiration for her anti-Hindu hatred is: “Rasul Allah (sallallahu Alayhi Wassalam)” which translates to “Mohammed” who was Allah’s Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him)”.

    But why blame Benazir? As Rishi Khujur pointed out, both Benazir and her suicide bomber had one thing in common. They were victims of their own hate-filled belief system ..oops… I mean Religion of Peace .

    But ironically, Benazir herself suggests on Page 26 of her autobiography “Daughter of the East” that her ancestors were probably Rajput Hindus who were converted to Islam in the 18th century. Then, Benazir’s paternal grandfather converted a Hindu woman (named Lakhi Bai) in Bombay, renamed her Khursheed Begum and married her, who later bore him Zulfiqar Ali (Benazir’s father).

    If only Benazir had returned to her Hindu roots, she could have transcended this cycle of hate and found peace in Yoga and meditation. What a pity !

    R.I.P. Benazir.

  105. @ Hujur
    I saw those videos of Benazir exhorting fellow followers of Quran for Jihad in Kashmir.
    Benazir Bhutto’s grandmother was a Hindu who was converted to Islam. Benazir Bhutto herself suggests on Page 26 of her autobiography “Daughter of the East” that her ancestors were Rajput Hindus who were converted to Islam in the 18th century.

    [Edited out by GB]

  106. @Hujur
    “They were victims of their own hate-filled belief system”

    – Almost all religions have typical dark aspects, hence all religions are equally condemnable. there is perhaps not a single religion that does not have elements of violence and hatred.

  107. I tend to agree that Benazir Bhutto deserves little of the halo that is being placed around her head post demise. She had played a big part in arming the Taliban and other fundamentalist groups as ballast against India. Whether she learned her lesson in subsequent years is a matter of debate.

  108. @Abhirup ganguly:

    “does not have elements of violence and hatred”

    Hatred and violence are two different things.

    Just because someone likes to settle their scores with arms does not mean that it stems from hatred.

    Violence or technically speaking responding with physical force during fight or flight situation is a natural phenomenon.

    The difference between civilized societies and barbarians lies in the fact that the former had laid down elaborate code of conduct for warriors. Geneva convention is a modern example.

    So, when you prohibit such natural societal response through artificial constructs and also disable legal mechanisms (due to your own partisan reasons) to address conflict situation, you’ll find alternative platforms emerging.

  109. @ rishi, hujur etc:

    one hand you bash and ridicule pakistan for not being secular, on the other hand those supporting secularism in India are idiots is it?

    if india should be a hindu state to protect its interests isn’t then pakistan 60 years ahead of us already? (yeah right.. we can see that)

    make up your minds. always remember that what is sauce for the goose is also sauce for the gander.

    i dont know what this page has to do with benazir bhutto.

    you should read william daryample’s account of her and Imran Khan in ‘age of kali’. she was and he is bloody crazy.

    waiting for the BJP to come back into power. will go from manmohan singh’s ineffectiveness to the hand wringing indecisiveness of the knicker crowd so effectively encapsulated by ‘rollback’ sinha’s budgets.

  110. @ Subrato:

    the romance of the khalistan movement is live and well in Canada.

    this illustrates the point that i was trying to make that expats usually have no clue about what is the best interests of the people who are actually living the homeland.

    pakistan supported the secession movement to the hilt (as bulleted bhutto herself admitted last week in an interview). but there is no denying the appeal for khalistan amongst kattar sikhs either.

  111. @ WTF,

    The real contradictions about the whole Khalistan thing were

    (1) Sikhs were, are and will be most highly represented community in public life … business, govt., military etc.

    (2) the community itself took shape to defend local faiths from idiots like Aurangzeb (that gent single-handedly destroyed the achievements of Akbar)…in other words to defend the nation…nation in cultural sense at least.

    (3) the Khalistani movement had no backers among the larger Sikh community. The Sikh terrorism to an large extent was the result of Op Bluestar which badly managed. Does anyone recalls the young Sikh Captain that lead the first commando platoon inside the shrine? Anyway the misgivings were short-lived as the Op Black Thunder was superbly managed.

  112. @ WTF
    Pakistan can never be secular. The only reason because it exists is Islam.

    You take away Islam from Pakistan, it will be no different from a Dharmic India and will consequently have no reason to be a separate nation.

    Now you may ask, why I say “Dharmic India”?
    Because I do not include followers of Quran in that category.
    Why?…because majority of them, yes majority of them LIVING IN INDIA, who claimed to believe in the Quran, voted for Pakistan.

    Shortly after partition, the views of one Qamaruddin Khan, spokesperson of Aligarh Muslim University (of a secualr India), appears in “Light of Lahore”. It advised the Indian Muslims to lie low for some time owing to tactical reasons and that soon they should stand up for a similar cause, that is to demand partition of Muslim majority areas of India”.

    Wrote Qamruddin Khan: “The five crore Muslims who were compelled to stay back in India would d have to fight for another freedom struggle. The fight would be mainly fought on the eastern end and the western areas bordering Pakistan did not mean that the Indian Muslims would invite Pakistan for help. However, it was certain that Pakistan’s presence in the neighbourhood would embolden the Muslims. The Indian Muslims have half the battle and for total victory they will have to scheme out another plan”.

    Further Qamruddin Khan wrote: “At the moment, the Muslims should refrain from politically confronting the Hindus . After a while the Indian Muslims should try to develop concentrated pockets. The Indian Muslims should maintain close relations with Pakistan and for running organizations, they should take help from them”.

    Now WTF, you can claim that we are 60 years behind in India being a Hindu nation…ABSOLUTELY we are. There was NO LOGIC in agreeing to a partition on the basis of religion and then not following it up in its totality….was there???

    Ok…fastforward to present day India.
    The larger Hindu identity is a secular identity and you would agree that unlike Islam, inhuman laws are not defined for the Kafirs, Dhimmis. So a Hindu India is inherently a secular India.

    Well ofcouse in a Hindu India, we WOULD NOT have
    -your and my tax money being used to ferry Haj “pilgrims” to Mecca and Medina in Air India flights year after year.

    -all the temple donations (billions of rupees) in places like Tirupati and Haridwar and Varanasi being TAKEN AWAY by the government to be “SECULARLY DISTRIBUTED” to build the grand Taj-ul-Masjid in Bhopal and a million other mosques and churches in this “secular nation”.

    – special status for Muslim majority Kashmir.
    – I have already spoken enough about the Uniform Civil Code before.

    and WTF..I agree that BJP might be as administratively challenged as the current government. That why we have democracy and ppl can use their franchise to show their will…either way.

    Abhirup Ganguly,
    Every belief system may have bad things in them. Some have more…some have less. Dont put them all in the same basket.

    Know more about religions….all of them.

    @ Shan
    Agree with u, my friend.

  113. I will quote Tarun Vijay’s article in Rediff today:

    “An interesting article appeared a couple of days ago in the Pakistan media. It gives an insight into the basic differences between the two people who are otherwise alike in everything — race, language, culture, ancestors, history, attire and blood group. Yet, they have shown a big divide as far as their progress is concerned.

    I quote, ‘Indians and Pakistanis have the same Y-chromosome haplogroup. We have the same genetic sequence and the same genetic marker (namely M124). We have the same DNA molecule, the same DNA sequence. Our culture, our traditions and our cuisine are all the same. We watch the same movies and sing the same songs. What is it that Indians do and we don’t? Indians elect their leaders.’
    (Dr Farrukh Saleem in “The News”; read the full report here: http://www.thenews.com.pk/editorial_detail.asp?id=85171 )”

    To that report, I would add one more line that underlines the difference between the two people:

    One belief system is totalitarian and seeks world domination through mass-murder. The other belief system is harmonious, has no desire for world-domination and prays for the well-being of all creation.

    One belief system fosters a destructive psyche. The other inculcates a constructive, progressive mindset.

    You figure out which one is which.

  114. Typo in previous comment … I should have added the word “BASIC” in this line:

    “To that report, I would add one more line that underlines the underlines the BASIC difference between the two people”

  115. @Rishi khujur

    “Dont put them all in the same basket.” “Know more”
    If u think they shud not be put in same basket kindly provide reasons – u can not expect that u can go abt advising ppl from your self assumed lofty pedestal.

    all religions are condemnable to almost same extent. Your concept of ” some have more … some have less ” is entirely a personal view of a biased person – and not universally acceptable.

    also , religious ills and their magnitude will be functionality of history, geography , society etc. — hence diff religions possess diff kinds of ill- and extent of evil will depend on pt. of view. what is evil is organised religion itself – all of them ( each with its own kind of typical evils and ridiculous aspects )

    to appreciate the fact that all religions are evil you may ponder on this :
    medieval witch burning or sati – which is more evil ?
    jehad or caste system – which is more evil ?
    kurbani or bolidaan – which is more evil ?

    all of above are/were perpetrated in name of religion – you will probably appreciate that deciding more or less is not that obvious – hence the conclusion – all religions are evil.

  116. @ rishi khujur

    I have gone thru the said post – mr. ivaturi there makes his own very valid points some of which are acceptable to me . But ur pts. made there no way succeed in proving my point – all religions are bad wrong. In fact , in that debate , mr. ivaturi seems to have argued most logically.

    “but its the infalliblity and “absoluteness” of dogma that makes the difference.” again , this is a personal and biased view and not universally acceptable.

    And, may i request u to go thru my arguments regarding ‘ all religions evil’ in response to hara hara bom bom’s bigotry in the “potato highly defective” post of oct 2007?

    https://greatbong.net/2007/10/24/potato-highly-defective-phd

    happy new year!

  117. @abhirup ganguly

    I quote your comment here that you asked me to refer.
    Abhirup Ganguly wrote:
    Organised religion , one can not help feeling , always has the evil purpose of furthering the ruling class’/priest class’ interests. It is true that some people will, through their ability manipulate situations to get their interests furthered – nothing wrong in that . But I do feel organised religion furthers some peoples’ interest by kind of hoodwinking others. Offcourse , an atheist like me can not perhaps appreciate properly the question of spiritual need”.

    Rishi’s response:

    True very true. An atheist like you will never understand.
    But thank your luck that you can safely call yourself a atheist in a free Hindu society. In fact Hindu Dharmic traditions have philosphical streams of atheism built into itself….

    Try that in an Islamic country 🙂

    🙂 That my friend is the difference…na-astika bandhu.

  118. “But thank your luck that you can safely call yourself an atheist in a free Hindu society.”

    Empty rhetoric, as usual! Yes, we can call ourselves atheists behind the veil of internet anonymity. We all saw what happened when ASI, in course of doing its duty, took a politically incorrect position. Free Hindu society… yeah right!

    Of course, I know what you would say! In an Islamic nation, a fatwa would have been ordered. I understand, not issuing a fatwa is a high enough bar to qualify as a free society; never mind the property damage, massive protests over a non-issue and the emotional hijacking of our collective resources in the name of Ram.

    And yes, Happy New Year

  119. @rishi_khujur
    “True very true. An atheist like you will never understand.”

    what i said was i will perhaps not appreciate spiritual need . however , the above comment by mine does not show that i accept that some religions are more evil than others as u and hara hara… are/were trying to show.

    abt atheism in islamic country : according to you that is the difference … as i have said bfore this so calld “difference”
    is functionality of geography , history etc. The fact that atheism is not tolerated in some places and some other scriptures may tolerate it no way convinces one of the absence of evilness in that particular religion – becoz still the argument “organised religion furthers some peoples’ interest by kind of hoodwinking other” stands.

    Also , how can any religion at all tolerate atheism ? Bcoz atheism is not merely blving absurdity of faith but also saying so. And by saying so one has to hurt the religious sensitivity of believers. Is it a tenable argument that Hindu fundamentalist organisations will allow an atheist to hurt religious sensibilities ? then why take umbrage when professed atheist karunanidhi does what according to him is ‘ quoting the ramayana’ – the argument is that hindu sensitibility can not be hurt – but that precisely is what an atheist must do day in and day out.

  120. @ rishi khujur

    I found the below quote by golwalkar in answers.com search for rss.
    “”The non-Hindu peoples in Hindustan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence the Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but those of glorification of Hindu race and culture,”

    an atheist does not ‘respect and hold in reverence’ any religion . Hence the abv quote shows that extreme right wing hindu fundamentalism is also not tolerant of atheism

  121. @ abhirup Ganguly
    Atheism is intrinsic to Hinduism (even Goalwalkar’s Hinduism) because Hinduism is not just faith, its philossophy too.

    See thats why I asked you to read more on all religions.

    Some keywords that will help you in your search Abhirup shaheb.

    1. Madhvacharya
    2. Sarvadarshansamgraha (first chapter)

    3. Veer Sawarkar and atheism
    yes Abhirup…the doyen of Hindutva o atheist chilo…bujhle bondhu)

    The atheistic viewpoint as present in the Samkhya and Mimamsa schools of Hindu philosophy takes the form of rejecting a creator-God.

    The Samkhya school believed in a dual existence of Prakriti (“nature”) and Purusha (“spirit”) and had no place for an Ishvara (“God”) in its system.

    The early Mimamsakas believed in a adrishta (“unseen”) that was the result of performing karmas (“works”) and saw no need for an Ishvara in their system. Mimamsa, as a philosophy, deals exclusively with karma and thus is sometimes called Karma-Mimamsa.

  122. @ dear Abhirup
    And Rishi Khujur is as much of a Naastika (atheist) as you can get. 🙂

    Hinduism strengh has always been its philosophy, not its faith…remember that when you look at Hinduism next time.

  123. @ rishi khujur:

    the million dollar question is whether higher questioning such as vedanta will be tolerated by the bigots of ‘Bharat’.

    exactly where do the mahabharat and ramayana come in the line of hindu scripture? right at the bottom.

    and yet suddenly the most important thing about hinduism, we are let to believe today by hindu organizations, is Ram and his heritage.

    the people you regularly defend are responsible for perverting and reducing our ancient philosophies to mere personality aggrandizement so typical of Christianity and Islam.

    then you claim there is a difference between our religion and others.

    hindutva is the perverted fantasy of those hindus that just wish that hinduism was as organized in inflicting intolerance and violence as other religions.

  124. WTF wrote:
    the million dollar question is whether higher questioning such as vedanta will be tolerated by the bigots of ‘Bharat’.

    exactly where do the mahabharat and ramayana come in the line of hindu scripture? right at the bottom.

    Rishi’s response
    Dear WTF:
    Neti, Neti mitra.
    Those you call the “bigots” of Bharata are the last “scoundrels” in the service of not just Vedanta (oh Vedanta is just a small part)…but the entire spectrum of questioning. Just from a ideological point of view, what you call the “perversion” of Hindutva is the last bastion of hope in giving our part of the world a chance at diversity and co-existance.

    Ofcourse, this blog has been the tarka-vitarka sphere of the manifestative aspects of it in so much more details since the past year.

    If a 9th century Kapisa had Hindutva in every coming generation, we would probably have seen a millenium of prosperity and co-existance in Afghanistan today.

    Swami Chinmayanand (who also founded Chinmaya Mission), one of the greatest Vetantins of the 20th century was the first President of the VHP (you know its a leading organization of the Hindutva movement).

    His so aptly chosen words, from the Vedas (now VHP’s motto) of “Dharmo Rakshati Rakshitah” (Those who protect Dharma will be protected by Dharma) gives such a crisp and meaning presentation of Hinduism’s response to the contextual aberrations of abosulutist, exclusivist belief systems (you know who).

    WTF:
    Within the Hindu revivalist movement, the physical, the faith and the philosophy are so vehemently intertwined. To the worshipper of the Tulsi plant, his salvation lies in is bhakti to the shrub. To the Ram Bhakta or the Krishna bhakta, their Moksha lies in Bhakti to their deity.

    That is the Dharma that Hindutva talks about.

    But thats just one aspect of Hindu revivalism that you see. Whether it is documentation and preservations of milleniums worth of knowledge, with a plethora of diversity, or the empowerment of the downtrodden, the Hindutva movement has helped us take small re-assuring steps in re-invigorating a society that Swami Vivekananda spent his entire life for. If you care to look, you will see so much more that doesnt show up in the mainstream media.

    Hindutva is just an effort in safety and facilitation of diversity. It is just a new name given to a never ending effort that saw the greats of Shankara, Ramanuja, Chaitanya, Ravidas and Teg Bahadur.

    Your last paragraph…. I shall have to slightly rephrase,

    “Hindutva is the |initiative| of those hindus that just wish that hinduism was as organized in |defeating| intolerance and violence as those other religions |that initiate it|. |Thats the only way to deal with dogma|”.

    Now I know you will go next to the operational aspects of Hindu revivalism and we will run the full circle of arguments that we go through in every blog.

  125. Hey Khujur,

    Ah, the ‘operational aspects of Hindu revivalism’. Isn’t that the grind now.

    I’m not sure whether Swami Chinmayananda advocated burning Muslim families alive because some of their co-religionists did the same to some Hindus, in some cases half a dozen centuries ago (or so went your earlier arguments). But my guess would be no.

    It doesn’t take a genius to observe how time after time you guys keep quoting Vendatic philosophies, the inherent tolerance of Hinduism, accompanied of course, by liberal uses of ‘Bharata’ and a sprinkling of googled up Sanskrit, how you talk in the same breath of your bigotry and some of the greatest sons of our country. But surprise! The ‘operational aspects of Hindu revivalism’ are never talked about in the same posts as the Vedantic metaphysics that are supposedly driving your noble pursuits.

    You and your cohorts are abusing the very tolerance that is Hinduism’s mainstay, it’s acceptance and tolerance of diversity of thought as an excuse for the intolerance, bigotry and hostility that you exhibit towards other religions and schools of thought.

    Yes, Hinduism is in grave danger. And that danger comes from people like you.

  126. @ rishi khujur:

    ‘operational aspects of Hindu revivalism’

    to my mind this hindu movement has nothing to do with spirituality and everything to do with politics.

    exactly what aspect of hindu revivalism is tolerant to criticism?

    whether it is vadodara or laine’s book on shivaji or the academics who research beef eating in ancient hindu culture having fatwas declared on them…orissa this christmas.. the list goes on and on..

    there is nothing i see today that buttresses your point that a hindu state will be synonymous with a secular/liberal/tolerant one.

    one brand of hinduism (read north indian) will be acceptable and that will be rammed down everyone’s throats. and then you will be left to say that that is not real hinduism, anymore than wahhabism is ‘real’ islam. of course, you will then be jailed and most probably killed as a heretic for opposing the religious state.

    hindutva is a movement that is seeking to remove democracy and replace it with the rule of a hindu mob. that btw is also its primary modus operandi. please do not invoke the names of revolutionaries and say this pathetic and destructive attempt to hijack the polity is a reinvention of what they worked for.

    there is enough space in india today for a spiritual reawakening of hindus. heck.. if hinduism is so attractive maybe there will be voluntary mass ‘reconversion’ (ha..ha.. i still cant get over that term). one does not need ownership of the State for it. that is just plain wrong.

    i agree with pakele that the real threat to hinduism comes from within it. in today’s age, if anything will disgust people and make them ashamed to be hindus, it is people who hate in the name of hinduism.

  127. @ khujur
    “Atheism is intrinsic to Hinduism (even Goalwalkar’s Hinduism) because Hinduism is not just faith, its philossophy too.”

    I have never denied the presence of ancient indian philosophies that are atheist. But your enumeration of atheist philosophies do not in any way disprove that golwalkar’s statement clearly reflects his intolerance for any one who , i repeat , does not ” hold in reverence the Hindu religion “.

    and if u and rss accepts atheism , then they shud accept an atheists right to hurt “sensibility” – i see that u have not been able to answer my qstn abt karunanidhi and this angle .

    also , pls do not assume that u need to provide me search-terms to educate me abt Hinduism. I prefer to study original texts’ reliable translations rather than superficial net-searching.

    My view that all religions are equally condemnable is based on arguments derived from common sense and observations. Most of the religious books that i am reading ( of all religions ) have material that on analysis, to various extent support and strengthen these arguments.

  128. @ rishi khujur

    “Hinduism strengh has always been its philosophy, not its faith…remember that when you look at Hinduism next time”

    whether hinduism is faith or philosophy , which is more and which is less is a vague and unresolvable question.

    ur convenient decision regarding this is merely ur view and not universally acceptable.

    And may i request u not to expect ppl to “remember” (..remember that when you look at…) ur personal views when they look for ways to know things as if u r a foucault or say, sankaracharya that even ur opinions r to be counted invaluable.

  129. WTF wrote:
    there is enough space in india today for a spiritual reawakening of hindus. heck.. if hinduism is so attractive maybe there will be voluntary mass ‘reconversion’ (ha..ha.. i still cant get over that term). one does not need ownership of the State for it. that is just plain wrong.

    Rishi’s response:
    ‘Reversion’ is the term. I really do believe that will steadily happen and will personally strive for it. Especially in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malay and Indonesia. That will also bring about much need change within the Hindu social system too.

    @ Abhirup:
    We are exchanging views, my friend. Nobody is forcing any views on anybody else. We all have our own intellect. You and me have equal rights to express ourselves, which is what we are doing.

    I really appreciate that you prefer to read original texts and translations. If nothing else, read Veer Savarkar’s writings on Hindutva from a atheist perspective.

    And I very well know that I am nobody. Apologise if I came across sounding like Foucault or Adi Shankara.

  130. @ Pakele
    Wierd logic u got. If a Sanskrit shloka is available on the internet…that doesnt take away anything from the shloka.
    Why do go and google everything I write and then come back and say that its available on the internet. 🙂

  131. Wowwwwwwwwwwwww…. the “modern day philosopher” is sprinkling his posts with Sanskrit terminology, my dear Dharambhrasht Mleccha Macaulayaputra Mitras! BTW, what’s with constantly speaking in the Third Person? 😀 Buffoons with Messianic delusions or retards do that all the time, you know….
    Given the way the Messiahs and pod-people are reaching out with sage-sounding Sanskrit, I am expecting something like this from the Cyber-Knickerwaalas’s stables soon:- “We hereby must solemly resolve to proactively leverage synergy between various groups of Majority, i.e Hindu, Stakeholders to execute a resynchronized paradigm shift from the current gnathonic simulacrum of Secularism in India that is manifest through the Macaulayite Appartchik and Academics/Media vide the Leviathan that is the Indian Administrative-Political and the compromised, yet highly force-multiplying socio-cultural milieu, respectively. The granularity, facetime and other drag inducing facets of such a epoch heralding endeavor is now quite offset by ubicomp, sound-byte media and short-attention span of the Young Hindu demographic, which is an already incentivized target-group, but entails the use of ….. ”

    It’s rich watching these creeps “incorporate” intellectual giants into their pathetic power-grab and missiology, but I just lavvvvvvv it when they conjure up some Pop Peelosophy and Coffee-Table Piskology.

    Neti Neti indeed! Ishvar, Allah, Elohim Shaddai, Singbonga, Mithun-da (whatever your name is)….. save me from these self-professed Avatars!

  132. @WTF:

    “to my mind this hindu movement has nothing to do with spirituality and everything to do with politics.”

    Of course. And why not. When a pseudo secular party like the Congress continues to patronize muslims and encourages the proliferation of radical Islam, I see no problem in a sect who feel the need to revive themselves in the face of this kind of partial treatment. As an example, Hindu revivalists may say, we dont wanna pay Haj subsidies. To you it may sound like not being “secular”, but to me its quite fair.

    “there is nothing i see today that buttresses your point that a hindu state will be synonymous with a secular/liberal/tolerant one.”

    That is because whatever you are seeing is reactionary. Nothing was initiated by the Hindus. eg. Godhara.

    No WTF. This is the difference between Hinduism/ Buddhism and other Abrahamic religions. I would be the first person to say that church and state should be separate. Say if impositions are made wrt say beef etc., I would agree that it is no different from Talibanism. But I would like to say that whether beef would be available in all parts of India cannot be guaranteed. Say a Hindu town like Benaras. It is natural that due to the demand supply scenario there, steak may not be easily available. In this case, it is useless to blame Hindutva or this. I love fish a lot. I should not blame a country if I don’t get it there. After all, majority of the people in India are Hindus.

    “hindutva is a movement that is seeking to remove democracy and replace it with the rule of a hindu mob. that btw is also its primary modus operandi.”

    You seek a perfect solution rather than an optimal one. Consider your options. Given a chance we would all like to live in a Sweeden like society. But consider your options and do a reality check. To you the pseudo secular version of not saying anything about Islam or Muslims, encouraging terrorist infiltration, encouraging SIMI and Haj subsidy while discouraging Uniform Civil code, Hindu revivalism may seem real “secularism”. I would rather vote for a party which would handle terrorism more rigidly, control border infiltration (contrast to say a party like CPM), encourage industry and enterprise (again something which is alien to left parties like CPM) and not indulge in unnecessary minority mollycoddling (Congress and CPM). So I still vote for Hindutva parties after comparing dangers vis-a-vis the dangers of pseudo secular and left parties. But I share with your concern that such a revival may take a radical form and become a headache for minorities. But you should take into account the probability of such a thing happening.

  133. @ Wanderer
    Aah….good to see u.
    Oh …Macaulayputra (by your own admission)

    Seems the more we discuss the more I see myself having my work cut out for me….me the creep, pathetic powergrabbing coffee table psicologist.

    ……na hi suptasya simhasya pravishanti mukhe mrigah.

  134. [ABHIRUP] : “Almost all religions have typical dark aspects, hence all religions are equally condemnable”.

    We have gone through this argument infinite times before. Not a single individual is perfect, and thus institutions built by them will by definition be imperfect.

    The question is weighing the relative degrees of imperfection and taking a stand. It is like saying ‘no political party is perfect, so I will disenfranchise myself’. This is cowardice at best, suicide at worst.

    [WTF] : one hand you bash and ridicule pakistan for not being secular, on the other hand those supporting secularism in India are idiots is it? if india should be a hindu state to protect its interests isn’t then pakistan 60 years ahead of us already?

    No, this is painting all human beings with the same brush. The outcome of millennia of historical development clearly show that the goose is not the gander. Different human clusters may and do have completely different outlooks, objectives and goals.

    The M outlook is world domination and subjugation. The H approach to global development is mutual co-existence. This has been consistently and unfailingly observed for over 2,500 years. In spite of lapses, H welcomes foreigners, while in spite of all too brief periods of illumination and hope, M tyrannizes them in to submission.

    There is absolutely no risk of India going the Pakistan way, the very souls of the two countries are different. Hindutva is a Hindu reaction to seething M fanaticism and terror. Once the latter disappears, the former will disarm.

    [ABHIRUP] : “If u think they shud not be put in same basket kindly provide reasons – u can not expect that u can go abt advising ppl from your self assumed lofty pedestal”.

    Because there is hardly a single M country of significance where non-Ms are treated fairly. Even the pacifist Malaysia has gone the fanatic way, exactly as I had predicted, even though I have stayed in KL, Penang & Alor Setar.

    Because one group calls for annihilation of the other until they are defeated and submit, while the other calls for ‘jato moth, tato poth’.

    Because in spite of relentless provocation, millennial brutality and fanatic hate from Ms, both within and without, apart from a few stray incidents, H tolerance and patience has held firm.

    Because of how Hs and Ms are perceived of completely different in the West.

    Because of the manifestation and world impact of the nations of Pakistan and India.

    You should stop gesticulating to people to descend from their pedestals, instead you should see if you have erected a vast spire for yourself, and whether you need to plunge down from it.

    [ABHIRUP]: “all religions are condemnable to almost same extent. Your concept of ” some have more … some have less ” is entirely a personal view of a biased person – and not universally acceptable.

    That is why we have ‘facts’ to enable comparison and conclusion. Facts that Rishi, Hujur et all have consistently pointed out. The biased person is he who consistently and conveniently ignores facts and harps on about equal vilification when the reality clearly is different.

    [ABHIRUP]: also , religious ills and their magnitude will be functionality of history, geography , society etc. — hence diff religions possess diff kinds of ill- and extent of evil will depend on pt. of view.

    No it doesn’t depend upon a point of view. It depends upon facts (as follows) :

    [ABHIRUP] “medieval witch burning or sati – which is more evil ?”

    Medieval witch burning. Why?

    Numbers : Sati was not practiced in large numbers. British, Portuguese and Dutch sources support this. It is estimated that over 150,000 to 1,000,000 witches were murdered in Europe (I have a copy of Spengler and Kramrisch’s ‘Malleus Mallefecorum’, and can give you more info.)

    Genesis : Though there were indubitably many cases of forced burning, the genesis of Sati arose from a different motive. The prime purpose was not to burn a widow. It was believed that ‘Sahamaran’ would ensure rebirth with the same husband, but as this could lead to a glut of suicides by gullible people, it was restricted to the horrific sacrifice of dying by fire. A woman, who would be willing to undergo this terror in love for her husband, was deemed a devi, worthy of worship. It was an act of honoring the voluntary sacrifice, not celebrating the charring. Witch burning was the latter, the enforced burning was the main objective.

    Sati and witch burning are both warped ideologies, and there were many enforced Satis. Yet the fact remains that Sati was perceived of as voluntarily accepted brutal euthanasia, witch burning was not.

    That, and the vast differences in numbers, makes witch burning infinitely more evil. Like juxtaposing the allied bombing of Dresden against Hitler’s mass-murder of Jews.

    [ABHIRUP] “jehad or caste system – which is more evil ?”

    Of course Jehad, can you not see it yourself? Do I have to underline it for you?

    Jehad is causing misery the world over, from every M country of note where quivering minorities exist (Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sudan, Malaysia) to countries where Ms constitute a substantial minority (Bosnia, Serbia, Nagorna Karabakh, Chechnya, India), to countries where they exist as trace elements (USA, UK, Spain, France, Phillipines) … the same dreary tragedy being replayed. The caste system is ‘not’ causing international terror.

    Even in countries where Ms are 100%, jehad is still called to kill the infidel Ms who are not M enough (Shia jehad against Sunnis, Sunni jehad against Shias. Hazaras, Bahais, Ahmadiyas). Jehad is not just a historical tool, it is an entrenched state of mind.

    And apropos the caste system in India, let’s be honest, what is it in its worst manifestation? It is a form of economic deprivation and humiliation. It is basically saying “I have more rights than you. But you still have certain basic rights. You have a right to earn a living (though your employment options are severely restricted), inter-communal marriage, and creating and maintaining a household and family. Don’t transgress these rules, and all will be well.

    Thus caste exploitation only (sic!!) deprives victims of ‘certain’ rights. Jehad denies the very first and fundamental right, the right to life.
    How can you call them the same?

    [ABHIRUP]: “kurbani or bolidaan – which is more evil ?”

    How many bolidaans take place, and how many qurbanis? Thousands against millions? And also, qurbani involves the infinitely painful and cruel process of halaal, intended to inflict pain on victims and foster apathy to brutality of perpetrators.

    And, may i request u to go thru my arguments regarding ‘ all religions evil’ in response to hara hara bom bom’s bigotry in the “potato highly defective” post of oct 2007?

    [ABHIRUP]: Your ‘arguments’ (if I may call them that) do not prove much. I declined to answer not because I was stunned silent at your brilliance of reasoning, but because after a few attempts of hitting my head against a stone wall (I had already provided the answers), I realized it was futile, and considered it better to concentrate on other things.

    [ABHIRUP] “I found the below quote by golwalkar in answers.com search for rss. “”The non-Hindu peoples in Hindustan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence the Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but those of glorification of Hindu race and culture,”

    What is wrong with that? Should people not hold some respect for the host community which has sheltered them and given them sustenance when all they have offered in return is hatred and vitriol? Isn’t this what is precisely required during the swearing in ceremony of US citizens? Gol. is not requiring non-Hs to be forcibly converted to H, he is asking that they show some respect to the only H country in the world.

    ‘False seculars’ are prickled at this, but not at the explicit, avowed and oft repeated assurance by Ms that they will not rest until they forcibly subjugate their hapless hosts.

    [WTF] : “exactly where do the mahabharat and ramayana come in the line of hindu scripture? right at the bottom. and yet suddenly the most important thing about hinduism, we are let to believe today by hindu organizations, is Ram and his heritage”.

    This is not just a reaction to Rama. The Rama agitation is the frustrated outcome of Hs who are fed up at continuous denigration of H both in and out of the media, and the all too obvious bias of pseudo-seculars in rushing to the aid of any minority infringement while ignoring similar please from Hs.

    [WTF] : “hindutva is the perverted fantasy of those hindus that just wish that hinduism was as organized in inflicting intolerance and violence as other religions.”

    This is your opinion. Mine is that Hindutva is the only shield that Hindus have left in preserving their very dignity and life.

    Where were the seculars when 55 Hindu women and children were burnt alive in Godhra? Genuine good seculars (like yourself) would have expressed genuine pain, but be powerless to douse the flames. The Hindu hating ‘false seculars’ would have forgotten about it by the afternoon, more concerned at how their Kotak mutual fund did that day.

    Victimised Hs have nothing better to fall back upon than Hindutva. The state has failed them. The police have failed them. The media hates them. The genuine seculars cannot rescue them. The false seculars toast themselves (the clinking variety, not the singeing one). Genuine victims who realize they forgotten, adopt desperate measures.

    I do not support it. I do not call it nice (quite the opposite). But I understand it.

    [PAKELE] “I’m not sure whether Swami Chinmayananda advocated burning Muslim families alive because some of their co-religionists did the same to some Hindus, in some cases half a dozen centuries ago (or so went your earlier arguments). But my guess would be no.”

    I am amazed (but I know I shouldn’t be) that you fail to mention the very source of the retaliation, the burning alive of innocent Hindu women and children by frenzied M mobs in Godhra. This is not half a dozen centuries ago. It is recent. And just another proof that the cruel saga of anti-H hatred and violence, incessant from when it was initiated 1,300 years ago, is still alive, fresh and strong today. After all, most of the 3 million Bengalis murdered in 1971 were H. Or have you forgotten?

    “You and your cohorts are abusing the very tolerance that is Hinduism’s mainstay, it’s acceptance and tolerance of diversity of thought as an excuse for the intolerance, bigotry and hostility that you exhibit towards other religions and schools of thought. Yes, Hinduism is in grave danger. And that danger comes from people like you”.

    These pejoratives do not get people anywhere. I could just as well argue that the real danger comes from people like you, who invariably twist any genuine attempt to protect H interests into H brutality and Godhra retaliations. It is as if the Nazis are rearming, and Nazi lovers are shouting down all efforts to highlight this by citing the Dresden bombing.

    I could easily claim that this strategy has failed in Gujarat, and is likely to fail elsewhere. People are not stupid, they can see things for what they are, in spite of the 25/8 vilification of Hindutva.

    [WTF] “to my mind this hindu movement has nothing to do with spirituality and everything to do with politics”.

    Hs are up against foes who base their very existence, forget their politics, on their distorted version of spirituality [Ms]. The only way of countering them is to combine your resources, political, social, economic and political, in to one bundle.

    [WTF] “exactly what aspect of hindu revivalism is tolerant to criticism? whether it is vadodara or laine’s book on shivaji or the academics who research beef eating in ancient hindu culture having fatwas declared on them…orissa this christmas.. the list goes on and on”.

    So what are Hs supposed to do when they are attacked? Remember, in Orissa, it was a H priest who was mercilessly beaten up first. You see, this is the typical anti-H ploy, be it Godhra or Orissa. Create an anti-H disturbance, hope to elicit an H response, and then unleash the full force of denunciation against Hs.

    [WTF] “i agree with pakele that the real threat to hinduism comes from within it. in today’s age, if anything will disgust people and make them ashamed to be hindus, it is people who hate in the name of Hinduism”.

    There are a literal sprinkling of people who hate in the name of H. There are far more people who have, do and will hate the very name of H. They have demonstrated through sword and fire that their aim is to obliterate H from the face of the earth. In this venture they are ably supported by the trillions in petro-dollars, billions that stupid Uncle Sam is pumping in to Pakistan, as well as the false seculars and bizarre media hurling one red herring after another to befool the public.

    This is the real threat to H.

  135. @Abhirup Ganguly-

    “what i said was i will perhaps not appreciate spiritual need . however , the above comment by mine does not show that i accept that some religions are more evil than others as u and hara hara… are/were trying to show.”

    Oh yes. There is a difference. You are blind if you don’t see it. Religion is like a fetish or a dogma. I see it as a business. People like and find comfort in certain brands and products. Religions are like that. As an atheist, you don’t have any faith. But consider which “businesses” affect your personal freedom more. There are degrees of differences. And I don’t quite get that “atheist’s right to hurt other religions”. You certainly do not represent the views of all atheists as absence in something cannot be concretely defined. So you can hurt any religion through free speech or at your home. But do not try to tell other people what they they should do if their lifestyle does not influence yours. Wheather a person will be a Hindu, Muslim, atheist, gay or a doper is none of your business. Wheather a group of people will practice BDSM, or pray at a mosque is none of your business too. Unless of course, that group is indirectly or directly guided by their dogma to have an influence on your life. If church is separate from state, then it should not bother you. So in a discussion of the relative harms caused the radical forms of religion, if you exonerate radical Islam by saying that, “Oh don’t say anything about Islam. All freaking religions are the same. Radical Islam is as harmful as Zoarastrism or Buddhism. So that act of Islamic terrorism is not a problem of radical Islam, but that of religion itself. End of discussion”, whom are you fooling?

  136. HHBB:
    The officially accepted number of Hindu Bengalis murdered in the autumnn and winter of 1971 was 3 lakhs (300,000). The US State Department came up with this finalized estimate as late as 2005. Ofcourse, it is the most sanitized number with material from Pakistan’s Hamoodur Rehman Committee Report.

    The unofficial number is close to 2.5 to 3 million as you mentioned.

    Even if we go by the official numbers…it is mindboggling to even think that happened.

  137. [ABHIRUP] : “Almost all religions have typical dark aspects, hence all religions are equally condemnable”.
    [HHBB] : “The question is weighing the relative degrees of imperfection and taking a stand. ”

    HHBB, so you mean to suggest that I, as a free thinking individual, HAVE to choose the least of the evils out there? What if I believe that ALL organized religion is criminal at worst, and chicanery at best? What is, after all, the concept of a god sitting in flowing robes somewhere out in the sky and creating life out of his (or her) palm, if not the product of humankind’s fertile imagination and a need to pass the buck to some ‘higher power’ when confronted with circumstances beyond his control? So, tell me, why should I ‘take a stand’ on which religion has the least ‘degree of imperfection’? Why should I substitute rational thinking with fairy tales? Why should I believe in religion at all?
    What can religion give me that I, as a rational individual, cannot find for myself? I may find logic and wisdom in the philosophies of the Upanishads, but does that make me a subscriber to YOUR version of Hinduism? Does that make me a hater and close my mind to the basic human qualities of judging others as humans first and christians or muslims later? What makes you think that aligning yourself with the age-old wisdom of generations of thinkers will absolve you of the casual bigotry that you display?

    [HHBB] : “The H approach to global development is mutual co-existence”
    “H welcomes foreigners”
    Yes, that is what true Hindu character is, and will thankfully remain, in spite of the efforts of exremists (whom you are here to endorse, and Khujur is here to recruit for) trying to destroy it from within. It will remain so because of the millions of ordinary people of this country, living ordinary lives, who see humans as humans first, and still proudly call themselves Hindu. In spite of your best efforts to paint them as naive, Islamophiles standing in the way of your ’cause’.
    Really, how does that make you any different from the Mullah or Jehovah’s Witness standing on my doorstep begging for my soul?

    [HHBB] : “Hindutva is a Hindu reaction to seething M fanaticism and terror. Once the latter disappears, the former will disarm.”
    Really? I thought Hindutva was a term coined by Savarkar? Or are you confusing the philosophy with the ‘operational aspects’ as so eloquently stated by the Khujur…:-) Your statement sounds almost like the admission of guilt. The ‘reaction to seething M fanaticism and terror’ is only opposite and equal, I suppose. And does that make you civilized, HHBB?

    [HHBB] : “one group calls for annihilation of the other until they are defeated and submit, while the other calls for ‘jato moth, tato poth’.”
    Hmmm. Only problem is, your version of Hindutva also calls for the annihilation of the ‘other’ so that you can ‘enforce’ the noble ideal of ‘joto moth toto poth’. Kind of a sticky muddle we are in here…

    [HHBB] : “apart from a few stray incidents, H tolerance and patience has held firm.”
    Ah yes, those ‘few stray incidents’. Brought to fruition by your brothers, the defenders of the faith.
    To speak about Hindu tolerance and faith while doing your best to undermine that very quality. The sheer hypocrisy is mind-blowing! The flame of Hindu tolerance is kept alive by those who don’t want to have anything to do with your version of Hindu revivalism. The ordinary rag-tag Hindus who may not call their country ‘Bharata’ and who may not know a single sanskrit shloka or even need to spout one to display their Hindu-ness.

    [HHBB] : “You should stop gesticulating to people to descend from their pedestals, instead you should see if you have erected a vast spire for yourself, and whether you need to plunge down from it.”
    I know the above statement is not directed at me, but it’s hard not to respond to such a blinkered sentiment.
    Why don’t you take a step back and look at where you have placed yourself? Maybe the problem with people like you, the Khujur and yourfan2 IS the pedestal. More than half the time what you are trying to say never comes across simply because people don’t like to be preached at.
    Pseudo-nationalism, pseudo-intellectualism, bombast and religious fundamentalism, all wrapped in one massive ego is a very very nauseating package. Only the bravest, or the jobless (like yours truly) have the patience or are foolish enough to take it on.

    [HHBB] : “Where were the seculars when 55 Hindu women and children were burnt alive in Godhra?”
    They were expressing shock and disgust with the rest of the civilized world, and calling for investigations and prosecution of the guilty, as is the norm in any civilized nation.
    No, they weren’t hacking muslim families in Vadodara, if that’s what you meant to ask.

    [ABHIRUP] “medieval witch burning or sati – which is more evil ?”
    [HHBB] : “Medieval witch burning. Why?”
    “A woman, who would be willing to undergo this terror in love for her husband, was deemed a devi, worthy of worship. It was an act of honoring the voluntary sacrifice, not celebrating the charring.”
    I think, dear HHBB, the question was rhetorical, unless you take pleasure in saying that burning humans alive in certain cases was actually justified, by whatever degree.
    An expression of shock at this casual dismissal of such brutality, I suppose, would be lost on you. So let us leave that aside.
    Surprising, isn’t it, that over the centuries how such a noble custom never materialized for the men who loved their wives enough to give up their lives for them? Does it occur to you that such medieval rituals may have had more to do with the status of women in society than the comparative regressive nature of different religions? ‘Deemed a devi’ indeed! By the very men who burnt her!
    I’m not complaining about the nature of men at that point in time, because humans are just products of their times. But that today, well into the 21st century, we have a seemingly educated person trying to prove that buring a woman in one case was actually a lesser crime than buring a woman in another case, just defies belief!

    [ABHIRUP]: “kurbani or bolidaan – which is more evil ?”
    [HHBB] : “How many bolidaans take place, and how many qurbanis? Thousands against millions? And also, qurbani involves the infinitely painful and cruel process of halaal, intended to inflict pain on victims and foster apathy to brutality of perpetrators.”

    I have personaly seen botched ‘bolidaan’s of buffaloes and goats and fountains of blood from half-chopped buffalo necks during blood-soaked orgies of religious fervour in Kali temples and even Durga pujas by the Nepali community. Doesn’t prove anything this way or that other than the fact that killing helpless animals in the name of any religion is a shame on those of us who call ourselves human.
    And oh, in case you didn’t notice, I think this question was rhetorical too.

    [ABHIRUP] “I found the below quote by golwalkar in answers.com search for rss. “”The non-Hindu peoples in Hindustan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence the Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but those of glorification of Hindu race and culture,”
    [HHBB] : “Isn’t this what is precisely required during the swearing in ceremony of US citizens?”

    Utter nonsense. The following is the Oath of Citizenship of the United States:
    I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God. In acknowledgement whereof I have hereunto affixed my signature.
    I’d be interested to know where in the above oath is anything mentioned about swearing allegiance to any particular religion.
    And in case you missed it, Golwalkar’s quote very precisely mentions “must learn to respect and hold in reverence the Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but those of glorification of Hindu race and culture,”
    But of course, the response will be, India = Hinduism and therefore the above is correct. Oh well…

    [HHBB]: “So what are Hs supposed to do when they are attacked? Remember, in Orissa, it was a H priest who was mercilessly beaten up first. ”
    Why HHBB, Hs are just supposed to go out and defend our faith, the one that is renowned for its tolerance and peace! So dutifully our defenders of the faith went and killed a few tribals and burnt some churches. Not much, just a few ‘stray incidents’.
    As has been widely reported in the press, the violence in Orissa had very little to do with religion and everything to do with rivalry between Kandhas and Panas regarding caste based reservations, with the VHP very helpfully stoking the fires by raising fears about conversion being the root cause of the economic woes of the Kandhas.
    But why let facts come in the way of rhetoric?

    [PAKELE] : ” Yes, Hinduism is in grave danger. And that danger comes from people like you”.
    [HHBB] : “These pejoratives do not get people anywhere. I could just as well argue that the real danger comes from people like you”
    Do you see a pejorative anywhere? I don’t.
    The truth is usually not palateable. But I guess expecting you to recognize it is asking for too much.

  138. @ Pakele
    Aaah…Orissa…suddenly becomes a caste thingie…way to go my friend. What was this, Gospel…Luke 20:20 or Peter 4:20.

    Didnt know that Christian converts were publicly admitting their pre-converion caste paradigms.

    That was not what that Texan Evangelical couple donated their 200 dollars for. I guess the “Joshua Project” didnt take that into consideration.

    But then again, what would this Khakhi Chaddiwala know about the “Joshua Project”.

  139. Salutations Oh Khujur:
    “Gospel…Luke 20:20 or Peter 4:20”

    Now, now, are we a bit touchy today?
    Did you puke or soil your pants while writing that? Sorry about putting a little dampner in your orgasm at reading HHBB’s post.

    But you are the all knowing, battle hardened Hindu jehadi. With contacts across the spectrum of human experience, from Seng Khasi to Romanian conscripts (excuse me…just coughed up my vodka…). Such small insignificant posts shouldn’t get your knickers in a twist!

    Joshua project and the gospel. My, my. And I’m a paid agent of the pope, here on GB’s comment space to subdue and conquer the Hindus of India, sorry, Bharat. The Khujur is my last obstacle. After that this land is mine…mine…mine…muwahahahaa.

    Sorry. No more vodka while responding to the Khujur. Promise.
    But I did say Bharat. That should get me in your good books. No?

  140. @The Khujur:
    “Aaah…Orissa…suddenly becomes a caste thingie…way to go my friend.”

    As I mentioned before, why let facts come in the way of rhetoric?

    As an aside, the kind of links you have provided over the time that you have spent on this blog (usually 24×7…where do you work btw? Are there any openings for liberal 30-something vodka drinkers?) have built up a nice little profile of yours, and man, I’ll make sure my children stay away from anybody that even vaguely resembles that!

  141. @Pakele-

    “HHBB, so you mean to suggest that I, as a free thinking individual, HAVE to choose the least of the evils out there? What if I believe that ALL organized religion is criminal at worst, and chicanery at best?”

    That is fine. You are free to construe the threat of common cold and that of HIV virus as the same. But HHBB has a right to argue what he thinks is the truth. Looking at it that way, all diseases are the same. Hell all offenses are the same. Why have degrees of felony?

    “Yes, that is what true Hindu character is, and will thankfully remain, in spite of the efforts of exremists (whom you are here to endorse, and Khujur is here to recruit for) trying to destroy it from within.”

    HHBB also tried to tell you the same thing. A slight modification to your response and see how it looks:

    Yes, that is what true Hindu character is, and will thankfully remain, in spite of the efforts of Islamic-atrocity-condoning-pseudos (whom you are here to endorse, and others are here to recruit for) trying to destroy it from within.

    “The ‘reaction to seething M fanaticism and terror’ is only opposite and equal, I suppose. And does that make you civilized, HHBB?”

    Umm. No. But it does keep him alive.

    “Only problem is, your version of Hindutva also calls for the annihilation of the ‘other’ so that you can ‘enforce’ the noble ideal of ‘joto moth toto poth’.”

    Not proactively. But under attack, the counterattack is just called for to live on and maintain ones freedom. Otherwise, subscribing to your view of tolerance (continued submissiveness in spite of being kicked in the ass) will be sure annihilation.

    “To speak about Hindu tolerance and faith while doing your best to undermine that very quality. The sheer hypocrisy is mind-blowing!”

    So is it wrong to imbue some self esteem into people who feel threatened by Abrahamic businesses? See tolerance is laudable, but only till a point where your existence, identity and freedom are in a crisis. So this revivalism is nothing but an effort to restore equilibrium.

    ““Where were the seculars when 55 Hindu women and children were burnt alive in Godhra?”
    They were expressing shock and disgust with the rest of the civilized world, and calling for investigations and prosecution of the guilty, as is the norm in any civilized nation.”

    Sure they were. But on the evidence of the reaction of internet and the mainstream media, their responses were starkly different when Muslims faced the music. This precise difference is what earns them the title ‘pseudo secular’. They viewed any sting operation to strengthen the case of Muslims as authentic while any report against them as propaganda. This premature propensity to align themselves without being sure of the facts gives credence to the pseudo-secular title bestowed upon them.

    —–

    @HHBB- The silken smooth drives of VVS at the Sydney Cricket Ground were just too much to take after the surfeit of eloquence and languid brilliance of your step by step deconstruction of pseudo logic. I still remember your anguish and desire to move to “golden antipodean shores first and fast”. Were you by any chance at the SCG today?

  142. PAKELE : “You mean to suggest that I, as a free thinking individual, HAVE to choose the least of the evils out there? What if I believe that ALL organized religion is criminal at worst, and chicanery at best?”

    Pakele, we inhabit a dynamic world, where different isms are in constant conflict with one another. Your dogged clinging to atheism may be functionally viable in a static arena. The tragedy is, it will be worth ‘nada’ when faced with the inevitable and imminent sword of conversion from the Ms.

    Even accepting your simplistic analysis of spirituality, your best bet (IMHO) is to identify which isms are overwhelmingly criminal, and which are opposite, i.e primarily fraudulent. Chipping away at the latter will only strengthen the hand of the former, which is far more malevolent. It will make their advancing sword only grow closer.

    PAKELE : “What is, after all, the concept of a god sitting in flowing robes somewhere out in the sky and creating life out of his (or her) palm, if not the product of humankind’s fertile imagination … What can religion give me that I, as a rational individual, cannot find for myself?”

    You are describing what the Abrahamic faiths exclusively subscribe to, muffling out the spirit of enquiry displayed by the Gnostics and Sufis in their ranks. H has elements of everything in it, even atheism. The aspect of H that appeals to me most is the supra-conscious states it describes, and the ways of reaching such states it prescribes (raja yoga). More and more objective ‘proof’ and evidence is being generated around the world to suggest such states are tangible realities that anyone can attain (astral travel, NDEs, mind travel).

    Experiencers of the highest states of ecstasy narrate a state of unfathomable bliss and knowledge that is beyond description, just like the Nirvikalpa Samadhi of our H scriptures. This itself establishes the case for preserving and protecting H knowledge.

    Even if you are dubious of these states (I had provided links before … if you wish I can provide the links again), H will act as a buffer to protect atheists like you from the fire of M wrathful zealots. Can you not see that?

    PAKELE : “Does that make me a hater and close my mind to the basic human qualities of judging others as humans first and christians or muslims later? What makes you think that aligning yourself with the age-old wisdom of generations of thinkers will absolve you of the casual bigotry that you display?”

    Of course judge all as human; I would risk my life to protect innocent Ms & Cs. As I have said before, my best friend is an M from Pakistan. So is my wife’s.

    However, a feeling of human fraternity should not close your eyes to the clear and present dangers focused exclusively on bleeding the very basic human qualities you espouse. All the evidence, whether of past analysis, present diagnosis, or future prognosis, clearly point to the juddering boiler room of such fanaticism that is the M world. Denying that is not enhancing your humanity, it is wilful deception and contrived blindness.

    PAKELE : “In spite of your best efforts to paint (tolerant Hs inactive that do not react to violence) as naive, Islamophiles standing in the way of your ’cause’. … how does that make you any different from the Mullah .. standing on my doorstep begging for my soul?”

    I am not begging for your soul, I am begging for your intellect. Before it’s too late and the Mullah you cite above gets fed up with begging and decapitates you. Then you will have no intellect or soul. And no head to boot !!

    PAKELE “Your statement sounds almost like the admission of guilt. The ‘reaction to seething M fanaticism and terror’ is only opposite and equal, I suppose.”

    You ‘suppose’ incorrectly. Effectively you are saying that the way to counter a Nazi menace is not fighting the Nazis, but remaining ever patient. It is precisely this sort of attitude that caused 6 million Jews to die.

    This is the crux of the issue. The only way to stand up to terror is be being armed. Do you not think that there are any lessons to be learnt from the Mahabharata war? Has WWII completely lost its resonance for you? The Allies were not necessarily angels of idealism (most were brutal colonists). Their objectives were not always noble (world domination, Yalta & Potsdam, Churchill wanting to refuse freedom to nations like India in the Atlantic Charter). Their actions were often as reprehensible as their foes (5 million Indians starved to death, 90,000 innocent civilians bombed and burnt to death in Hamburg & Dresden, Atom bombs). But of the two ‘imperfect’ poles of Axis & Allies, Allies were ‘infinitely’ the preferable.

    Or do you not think so?

    PAKELE : “Only problem is, your version of Hindutva also calls for the annihilation of the ‘other’ so that you can ‘enforce’ the noble ideal of ‘joto moth toto poth’. “

    No it doesn’t.

    PAKELE : Ah yes, those ‘few stray incidents’. Brought to fruition by your brothers, the defenders of the faith.

    Initiated by ‘your’ brothers, the ‘religionists of peace’, who, as predicted, are accelerating their rampaging spree of intolerance under their protective shield of secularism and masquerading spear of false secularism.

    PAKELE : “To speak about Hindu tolerance and faith while doing your best to undermine that very quality (is hypocrisy). … The flame of Hindu tolerance is kept alive by those who don’t want to have anything to do with your version of Hindu revivalism”.

    We are not undermining tolerance. We are highlighting and warning against brazenly displayed and practiced intolerance that is the cause of immense pain to tolerant faiths in the past, present, and future. That is not intolerance, but tolerance in action.

    The false-secularist version of sitting plum and doing ‘nothing’ while terrorists burn children is not tolerance. It is inertia and cowardice.

    PAKELE : “I know the statement [HHBB – You should stop gesticulating to people] is not directed at me, but it’s hard not to respond to such a blinkered sentiment”.
    Try. (wry tone)

    PAKELE : “Pseudo-nationalism, pseudo-intellectualism, bombast and religious fundamentalism, all wrapped in one massive ego is a very very nauseating package”.

    Not half as repulsive as anti-nationalism, hatred of H culture and attempts to preserve life and dignity, wilful suspension of intellectual application, and animated support for true fanatics, all concealed under a catch-all sound-bite of secularism.

    Not you, but ‘false seculars’. I hope you do not go down that route. Unfortunately many pseudo-seculars end up there .. with the assured certainty of BBC commentators ending up in Al-Jazeera.

    PAKELE : “Where were the seculars when 55 H women and children were burnt alive in Godhra? They were expressing shock and disgust with the rest of the civilized world. They weren’t hacking M families in Vadodara, if that’s what you meant to ask”.

    Yes I remember the surge of national outrage when this happened, especially from the HR activists, media and pseudo-secular camps, which ranged from decibels of nil to nil. Heck, our ministers even quoted Taliban sites to claim that the BJP may have been behind it. ‘Shock and disgust’ indeed. More like ‘mock & exult’

    Your personal display of mute indignation in front of a mirror are not enough.

    PAKELE : calling for investigations and prosecution of the guilty, as is the norm in any civilized nation.

    Sure. But is India a civilized nation when dealing with its H citizens? It allowed nearly 3 million Hs to be murdered in Bangladesh. It has provided the Kashmiri Pandits nothing, absolutely nothing. It merrily steals funds from H temples (& their admittedly scheming pandas) to fund madrassic fanaticism. It cannot even prevent border areas from being submerged in the deluge of M overpopulation, seams of India that will soon be lost.

    PAKELE “medieval witch burning or sati – which is more evil ?” I think, dear HHBB, the question was rhetorical.”

    I know. And such idle rhetoric is banded around brazenly to denigrate H to a common denominator to other faiths (but curiously never to denigrate M or C. Anyway). That is why I tried exploding this myth with facts.

    H evils, cruel though they are, are infinitely smaller than the unmitigated brutality in other faiths.

    PAKELE “But that today, well into the 21st century, we have a seemingly educated person trying to prove that buring a woman in one case was actually a lesser crime than buring a woman in another case, just defies belief!”

    You are twisting the clearly enunciated points above to fit them in to your smug perception. Sati was clearly highlighted as a crime. However it was a far lesser crime as cases of Sati were far more restricted, and most Satis were voluntary. In my opinion it is a lesser crime to encourage someone to kill themselves rather than the actual physical act of murder.

    What about you?

    PAKELE : “I have personaly seen botched ‘bolidaan’s of buffaloes and goats and fountains of blood from half-chopped buffalo necks during blood-soaked orgies of religious fervour in Kali temples and even Durga pujas by the Nepali community”.

    The point stands. How many bolidans are performed in the poonchke Nepal, and how many halaals in the vast diaspora that is M world (jncluding the largest M country, India)?

    And as you pointed out, the errors are in the botching up of what was intended to be a clean ‘execution’. It was not intentional torture of the beast for sadistic gratification as is the case in halaal.

    For heavens sake, a vast number of Hs are vegetarians. Nothing, absolutely nothing in H be good enough for fastidious pseudo-seculars. If an H ends up doing nothing else but burping, they will hold the H faith in as much disgust and calumny as they perceive Timurlane’s genocide.

    PAKELE “ Apropos Golwarkar’s comment “The non-Hindu peoples in Hindustan must either adopt the Hindu culture and language, must learn to respect and hold in reverence the Hindu religion, must entertain no idea but those of glorification of Hindu race and culture,”

    HHBB had commented “Isn’t this what is precisely required during the swearing in ceremony of US citizens?”

    Pakele differentiated this from the Oath of Citizenship of the United States: “I hereby … renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any .., state, ..; that I will .. defend the .. United States .. against all enemies, …; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States ..; that I will perform noncombatant .. when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian ….; so help me God… I’d be interested to know where in the above oath is anything mentioned about swearing allegiance to any particular religion.”

    Golwarkar nowhere mentions swearing allegiance to H, or converting to H. That is the objective of M nations. Golwarkar is just asking erstwhile H haters to show some respect to H. What is wrong in that? He is not even asking them to bear arms for India, which the USA is.

    I am aware of the Oath of Citizenship. As an aside, certain Christians in USA (I think Southern Baptists in the 1970s?) claimed that that “that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same” should be interpreted to ‘bear the true faith’ (i.e Protestantism), but I do not think they were taken seriously. However, religious rites do play an active role in US politics.

    PAKELE : Apropos my comment on ” Yes, Hinduism is in grave danger from people like HHBB, i.e “These pejoratives do not get people anywhere. I could just as well argue that the real danger comes from people like Pakele”, Pakele had commented “Do you see a pejorative anywhere? I don’t”. The truth is usually not palateable.

    You have quoted one line of yours; the ejoratives “intolerant, bigot and hostile” were immediate in your line above it. Why have you made a selective quote?

    Careful now; if this becomes a habit, people will think you are ‘twisting’ the very truth you make such fanfare of showing you adhere to.

    YOURFAN2 – The silken smooth drives of VVS at the Sydney Cricket Ground were just too much”. Were you by any chance at the SCG today?

    No my friend. Not yet. It will take longer than that. I have visited the Gabba though. And at Sydney, visions & tastes of 6% Coopers at the Rocks & the Blues Jazz Club there still linger.

    To PAKELE’s comment : “The ‘reaction to seething M fanaticism and terror’ is only opposite and equal, I suppose. And does that make you civilized, HHBB?” YOURFAN2 wrote “Umm. No. But it does keep him alive.”

    Heeeeeey, Yourfan 2, careful now. The pseudo-seculars will claim that you are agreeing to Pakele’s supposition that I am uncivilized ….. 🙂

    PAKELE … “As I mentioned before, why let facts come in the way of rhetoric?”

    Isn’t that precisely what pseudo-secularism is all about? Shrug. And sigh.

  143. Careful Pakele. You are getting Shan (the lubricater’s) unbridled admiration.

    You must be doing something seriously wrong !!

  144. @ rishi khujur:

    reversion is it? even funnier.

    so hindus have no ambitions of extending their sphere of control and influence unlike islam? history shows this, huh?

    “I really do believe that will steadily happen and will personally strive for it. Especially in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Malay and Indonesia.”

    aah.. ok…

    you forgot afghanistan dude! confirmed former hindu/buddhist kingdom.

    how about arabia? p.n. oak claims that the kabba is a shiv temple na?

    “Didnt know that Christian converts were publicly admitting their pre-converion caste paradigms”

    ever heard of dalit christains? proposed reservations for them(st.stephens had implemented it voluntarily)?

    ever heard of the legal challenges to the constitutional definition of caste that prohibits converts from accessing reservations? (i mean..think about it.. if the basis for reservation is historic deprivation then surely merely by changing a religion overnight shouldn’t dent your right of upliftment.)

    i thought you knew everything about India. jah!

    pakele is right. orissa is both a religious and a caste conflict.

    only a fool like a lawyer would delude himself by defining ‘caste’ in a statute and think thousands of years of prejudice are wiped away.

  145. HHBB (and fanboys in the throes of orgasmic ecstacy):

    Pseudo-nationalism is your cause. Stick to rabble rousing.

    You, sir, are no representative of Hinduism.
    Do not pretend to be one.

    “your simplistic analysis of spirituality”
    Yes, yes, of course. Spirituality needs to be complicated and complex. Beyond the understanding of ordinary human beings. Meant for an old boys club of intellectuals.
    Kind of like yourfan2’s movie reviews…:-)

    The dictionary defines ‘spritual’ as “of, relating to, consisting of, or affecting the spirit”.
    Wait. They must be wrong. It can’t be that simple, can it? C’mon now, that will even include illiterate tribals who find ethereal peace when surrounded by nature! That’s not fair…no intellectualism!

    Pedestal, anyone?

  146. Hush now Pakele, you seem to be losing the plot. 🙂

    PAKELE “fanboys in the throes of orgasmic ecstacy”

    Your constant allusions to orgasms ‘with no basis & contextual justification’ is a curiousity. You see, as many ‘pseudo’nationalistic commentators like Rishi & myself have mentioned before, we are married, many with kids, so we have a positive way of channelling our ecstacies.

    OTOH If you’re not more careful, people may think that you are jealous and wish others would have orgasms about you !! They may even suggest “Keep trying, old chum. One day perhaps. For everything else, theirs MasterCard” 🙂

    Pakele wrt “your simplistic analysis of spirituality”. “Yes, yes, of course. Spirituality needs to be complicated and complex. Beyond the understanding of ordinary human beings. Meant for an old boys club of intellectuals”.

    No that is not what I was saying. You had reduced religion to a binary exercise, crime and chicanery. This is the simple paradigm I was alluding to.

    Actually, according to H, spiritual development should be the most simplest thing to achieve. Thus it tolerates, nay outlines and enjoins, different paths for different people to suit individual tastes, proclivities and stages of development.

    The basis of H is that spirituality should be objectively and subjectively understood and experienced, otherwise it is no spirituality at all. You will observe that this is diametrically opposite to the threatening exhortations to faith practised by many H-hating faiths.

    Pakele : “That will include illiterate tribals who find ethereal peace when surrounded by nature! ”
    Correct. A sublime experience is a spiritual one. Ramakrishna was an illeterate villager when he saw a flock of geese and fell swooning in religious ecstatcy.

    I sincerely request you to read the links I provided earlier about the current evidence on Near Death experiences, Astral Travel and reincarnation. (I can provide them again). That my friend will blow your mind away.

    Or to convert it to your terminology, will render a truly ‘orgasmic’ experience!

  147. this is a modi page and apparently his victory proves that the indian people have rejected secularism as a crap concept.

    i tried to engage rishi about this but he never answered my point that secularism is a cornerstone/fountain of human freedom.

    a democracy which is not secular is doomed to fail. it is like having a democracy without the separation of powers between the legislative, executive and judiciary.

    how long do you think a system which does not maximize liberty will be tolerated by its people in the long run?

    a thousand years? two thousand years?

    history may not have ended yet as fukayama predicted but it will some day. and will not be how marx imagined it. either liberal democracies will do it or mankind will develop a better system.

    all this hindu-muslim shit is nonsense in the long run.

  148. @ WTF
    good you mentioned our discussion.
    I really liked your response on secularism and even though I did not respond directly to that post, I followed up with many posts that were a take on my views about secularism and why a strong Hindu Iddia is the last hope of having a secualr democratic society in our region.

    In the context of India, I agree with all your assertions. The path that I see to achieving them (separation of the the pillars, liberty, etc, is by having a liberal and strong Hindu society. There is enough evidence that has been given to support that assertion.

    Secularism is inherent to Hinduism.
    And its not our job to make it inherent in Islam.

  149. @ WTF
    I have also given many many many examples on why I think what we have in India quite Non-secular at the fundamental level. The next worst thing would be to have a Islamic state like our neighbors. And I have given many many reasons why I think that is also not a unreasonable possiblity, given our scenario both socio-politically and geo-politically.

    I donno what else I can say.
    To paraphrase George Santayana, those who do not learn from their past mistakes are condemned to repeat it.

    Hope that does not come true for 1/5th of humanity atleast.

  150. “As I have said before, my best friend is an M from Pakistan. So is my wife’s.”

    Hahahahahahahahaha. Compare with:

    “I am not a homophobe. Some of my best friends are gay.”
    “I am not a racist. Some of my best friends are black.”

    Where have we heard that line before?

    @HHBB:
    “Careful Pakele. You are getting Shan (the lubricater’s) unbridled admiration.

    You must be doing something seriously wrong !!”

    From your POV, he must be, obviously.

    Interestingly, representative of my general moderation of nature, my admiration is similarly moderate (just a simple “well done”) Unfortunately for Pakele, even his best shots did not get him the kind of gushing love extremists give and get(“HHBB, Take a bow. I am spellbound.”)! 😀

    Also, shouldn’t it be ‘lubricator’? I am really glad your memory is like a well lubricated machine that churns out the same statements post after post.

    @Rishi Khujur:
    “The next worst thing would be to have a Islamic state like our neighbors.”

    Exactly, but not in the sense you mean. The worst thing would be to have a state identified by and based on a single religion. The only hope is to create a state that implements complete separation of Religion and State (pipe dream I know, but am I not entitled to mine?)

    @Pakele:
    “You, sir, are no representative of Hinduism.
    Do not pretend to be one.”

    I actually agree with the first sentence completely, and it is pretty clear that he and his friends are not.

    But I also support his right to pretend to be one. 🙂 That is a right all tolerant people give to others, even of the others are intolerant bigots.

    @HHBB:
    “You had reduced religion to a binary exercise, crime and chicanery.”

    Umm…not that I am any sort of expert in this area, but crime and chicanery do not seem like binaries to me, at least semantically. I would posit that what you have done is reduce nationalism to binaries – Your version of militant Hinduism (good) vs. all other opinions (bad).

    @WTF:
    “a democracy which is not secular is doomed to fail. it is like having a democracy without the separation of powers between the legislative, executive and judiciary.”

    Agree completely.

  151. HHBB,

    No praise would be too high for your impeccable logic and sound judgement. If you penultimate long comment made you a smash hit, then the last long comment has made you no less than a national hero. Let us refrain from reacting to ad hominems and foolish sexual innuendos as by doing so we will fall into the pseudo trap strategically set up to obfuscate and divert attention from your arguments which have completely stripped and exposed them.

    Just like the Kohinoor stands out amongst diamonds, one particular segment of your comment dazzled brighter than the rest. At casual glance, it seemed to glow like a slow burning stove, but upon closer examination it seemed to radiate like the late afternoon Antipodean summer sun, the kind of radiance that makes Test match tussles at grounds like the SCG such an enthralling spectacle. That part was:

    “However, a feeling of human fraternity should not close your eyes to the clear and present dangers focused exclusively on bleeding the very basic human qualities you espouse. All the evidence, whether of past analysis, present diagnosis, or future prognosis, clearly point to the juddering boiler room of such fanaticism that is the M world. Denying that is not enhancing your humanity, it is willful deception and contrived blindness.”

    HHBB, you have just given the best possible definition of Indian pseudo-secularism. The stunning accuracy of your description is at the same time shocking and yet beautifully revealing. You know many people say that we should do this or that to make the world a better place for future generations. But as far as India is is concerned, if any child fails to get the knowledge of this definition of pseudo secularism, then should hang our heads in shame as we are causing incommensurable harm to him/her. From this day on, if any book on the Indian pseudo secular does not make a reference to your quote, then its not worth the paper that it is printed on.

    Some other gems from your response were:

    1> “PAKELE : Ah yes, those ‘few stray incidents’. Brought to fruition by your brothers, the defenders of the faith.

    Initiated by ‘your’ brothers, the ‘religionists of peace’, who, as predicted, are accelerating their rampaging spree of intolerance under their protective shield of secularism and masquerading spear of false secularism.”

    2> “We are not undermining tolerance. We are highlighting and warning against brazenly displayed and practiced intolerance that is the cause of immense pain to tolerant faiths in the past, present, and future. That is not intolerance, but tolerance in action.

    The false-secularist version of sitting plum and doing ‘nothing’ while terrorists burn children is not tolerance. It is inertia and cowardice.”

    Stunningly beautiful. What a ripper! What an absolute ripper!

    3> “PAKELE : “Pseudo-nationalism, pseudo-intellectualism, bombast and religious fundamentalism, all wrapped in one massive ego is a very very nauseating package”.

    Not half as repulsive as anti-nationalism, hatred of H culture and attempts to preserve life and dignity, wilful suspension of intellectual application, and animated support for true fanatics, all concealed under a catch-all sound-bite of secularism.”

    Inebriating. Psychedelic. Cocaine. Pure ecstasy. Thundering applause and a standing ovation.

  152. Hi yourfan2,

    Thanks for your comments, I’m blushing now!! 🙂 I bet the seculars will now claim that you & I are the same, & I am using the yourfan2 identity to shower praise upon myself !!!

    On a graver note, WTFs last 2 posts have revealed a lot to me about the secularist position, hitherto unkbown to me. I will comment upon them later.

    I have total respect for WTF. For his knowledge, articulation, restraint & noble intentions (‘true secularism’ as opposed to falSEcularism of many others, or even Shan’s sad seXularism).

    However, the sheer impracticality, nay danger of even the true secularist stance is becoming more and more apparent, and needs to be highlighted.

    Till later, my friend.

  153. What a fundie love fest! 🙂 It just gets better and better.

    Of course, people decrying “sexual innuendos” need to re-read some of their own comments made earlier. But then hypocrisy is expected from such people.

    And the hypocrisy mixed with a veneer of pseudo-intellectualism is the funniest combo of all. All the perfumes of Arabia…

  154. @ WTF

    Ok…

    1. Christian fundamentalists use the ruse of “Hindu caste system” as a tool to convert people to Christianity.

    2. Then, WITHOUT ACCEPTING IT OFFICIALLY, they not only intitutionalize it, but also make it harsher within their church.

    3. Then they come back and ask for constitutional sanction to demand benefits for the same reasons that they had used to convert people in the first place.

    Which part of this is logical.

    I have heard of Dalit Christians and known many. I also know how virulent casteism is in the Christian society in India.

    As a kid, I also studied in a missionery school and used to go to church for mass…irony irony 🙂

    WTF..you are a bad laywer….be more logical.

  155. @ WTF
    The reason I left out Afghanistan is because, theoritically, if Pakistan returns back to its long lost Hindu origins…Afghanistan will automatically follow suit, especially the non-Uzbek, Non-Tajik majority.

    To your question about why I didnt include the Arab world, I think the Arab World, will find it very very difficult to leave Islam, because their identity has become synonymous with it. Not so for Persia(iran) though.

    The problem with Persia though, is that unlike Hinduism, Zoroastrianism under duress, never developed to a point, philosophically and theologically, where it could provide a viable counterweight to the Islamic agression.

    For the Muslims of the Indian sub-continent, Indonesia and Malay, a self confident, resurgent and unified Hindu society is a natural home-coming destination….especially for the present-day Muslim women.

    It would a giant leap towards our dream of acheiving TRUE secularism.

  156. 1. WTF : “only a fool like a lawyer would delude himself by defining ‘caste’ in a statute and think thousands of years of prejudice are wiped away”.

    WTF, this point is self evident. And what solution are you proposing? Stretching this line of reasoning would imply extra-statutory measures should be adopted to eliminate caste, as statute evidently falls short and otherwise caste will never be eliminated. If so, the secular insistence on adhering to not only the spirit but the accent mark on the letter of the law, will fall flat.

    Further, it is important to highlight the prejudice from both sides. It is reprehensible to deprive equality, opportunity and dignity to a fellow human being. It is equally if not more reprehensible for religious organizations to twist and exploit the tragic circumstances of caste to suit their ugly demographic game.

    The drum-rolled ‘altruism’ of these church organizations rings completely hollow when one sees they would not raise their voices, or even their little pinkies, when 3 million Hindus were massacred in 1971, or when 5 million Indians were starved to death in 1942.

    They have no credibility left. They are not champions of caste victims.

    2. WTF : “secularism is a cornerstone/fountain of human freedom”.

    I accept. But when the very basis and existence of this human freedom is threatened, strong steps need to be taken to redress the balance.

    Peace is intended for people who wish to live in peace. If a nation initiates a war, then democracies ensure they gang up to remove the menace. Similarly for secularism.

    Secularism is intended for people who wish to live secularly. It should be showered on those who reciprocate secularism. If it is used, as it is, to constantly deprive and defang the peaceful community which wishes to profess it, while only buttressing the fanatic camp that self-proclaimedly, by very tenet, decries it, then is this secularism, or falSEcularism and a sham?

    3. WTF : “a democracy which is not secular is doomed to fail. it is like having a democracy without the separation of powers between the legislative, executive and judiciary”.

    Accepted. However a secular society ‘can’, nay, ‘should’ adopt non-secular means if necessary to preserve its secular core. This is what Rishi has been taking pains to point out. H has traditionally been a secular society. In spite of the occasional intra-Indic conflicts (H-Buddhist-Jain), given those troubled ancient times and the sheer barbarism of elsewhere, H society was a paradise.

    That very H society has been threatened with accelerating extermination for over 1,300 years. The very secularism it embraces will evaporate the day the M hordes take over, protected as they are by the secular shield & the falSEcular spear.

    Non-secular democracies will fail. Secular democracies, faced with venomous foes within and without, who take no steps to protect their secularism, will fail far quicker.

    4. “WTF : how long do you think a system which does not maximize liberty will be tolerated by its people in the long run? a thousand years? two thousand years? history may not have ended yet as fukayama predicted but it will some day. and will not be how marx imagined it. either liberal democracies will do it or mankind will develop a better system.”

    Your observations are true in a stable world, when the only threat to civilised societies are from within. Not in a boiling-point dynamic arena when isms clash and collide, and peaceful societies are constantly tyrannized by heavily violent ones.

    If you are an animal lover, fine. If you are an animal lover lost in the jungle, all I can say is carry a gun.

    Further, maximum liberty is not the goal, optimal liberty is. A society that allows its citizens unbridled freedom is one that has abrogated its responsibility. Thus in the West killers walk free as jails overspill, families break down, social order is collapsing.

    Western liberalism has immense advantages. Canada and Australia are beautiful examples of such countries on the upward cusp of the cycle. However, perfect freedom invariably confers perfect freedom and power to those who wish to destroy that freedom.

    We can also see what degenerated ‘liberal’ states will descend to. States like the USA & Europe, with broken families, and being torn asunder by strife, greed, drugs, crime and exploding immigration. Many in such societies are saying they would have preferred some curbs on such unbridled liberalism.

    I can only agree with them.

    Perfect freedom should be an outcome of society; a cherished goal. You are using it as a tool. This is dangerous when society is not prepared for it.

    5. WTF : “all this hindu-muslim shit is nonsense in the long run”.

    And this is a revelation of epiphaneous magnitude to me. You call this ‘shit’? You call this ‘nonsense’, hoping that the relentless grinding long term wheel of history will shut out the screams of its current victims?

    This is a life and death scenario being played out in the real world. There are victims who are being skewered and burnt alive, on both sides. (Far more on one side than the other).

    I hear the scream of these victims on both sides. Your curt and dismissive comment above seems to suggest this is all a mere academic exercise to seculars, a showground intended only for seculars to feel good by displaying their credentials of liberalism, fate of the tortured, wretched and dying victims be darned.

    I hope your comment was a casual one. Otherwise, if you, definitely in the ranks of the best of the seculars, maintain such lack of empathy, what can this portend about lesser seculars? That their feelings are callous and their liberalism false? That their subscription to liberalism is only a convenient way to score easy points and feel good against a weak enemy (read Hs)?

    This revelation of a different side, the heartless core of secularism, has pained me immensely. It buttresses my point that only they who feel the pain of Hs will be able to empathise with M victims. Those who make a show of embracing Ms by forcibly and consistently ignoring H pain, are engaging in just that. A show.

    Thus H will offer a far better secular regime than this sham secularism.

    6. WTF : this is a modi page and apparently his victory proves that the indian people have rejected secularism as a crap concept.

    Correct. Not Indians, but Gujaratis. One of the most intelligent, progressive, successful and (overseas) admired group of Indians have rejected secularism as a crap concept.

    Why do you think that is?

  157. The salesmens’ bait and switch routine is getting quite hilarious…..

    First we have malicious mis-representation of Indian Secularism….
    Indian Secularism is not negating religion, but simply means that the state should not show leanings towards any particular faith nor base any facet of the system on tenets of a single (majority) religion. This principle is extended to say “minority faiths shall be allowed to maintain their distinct identity, traditions and beliefs in the face of the overwhelmingly majority faith”. And we have the right-wingers claiming that this feature of the Indian Constitution is somehow destroying down their own faith! And what do present as evidence; Haj Subsidy and UCC! While it’s true that there have been instances of cynical selective-use of the principle by political entities, sometimes with terrible results, the principle as such is not regressive or “holding back the Hindus of the nation” in any way. And it should NOT be revoked!

    The Taqleef of the Knickerwaalahs towards Indian Secularism is simply due to the fact that Independence and Partition did not automatically lead to elimination of the “polluting mlecchas” from the Holy Soil. Instead, they saw the thriving of minority committees who refused to be “subsumed” by Mainstream Modern Hinduism, despite the best efforts of the Hindu Right. Way back in the 50s, long before the Amazing Imam Modi, there were calls by powerful leaders (even Congress leaders who didn’t split off in the 40s-70s) for “goading”, “encouraging” “strong-arming” Muslims/Christians into Hinduism and injecting a solid Hindu character into the Indian State and Polity. Heck, there were big debates on this while the Constitution was being finalized. It is to the credit to certain visionaries of that age that this lemon was not sold to the Indian people.

    The Knickerwaalahs from Singhal to our online heroes HHBB/Khujur/Hujurs perhaps feel (after sixty years of failure, social friction and intolerance towards those that do not confirm) that the only way to “make things better” (for themselves) is by giving the STATE itself an outright Hindu tinge. It’s the old Boiling Frog/Camel in the Tent approach…. everyone from the Semitic Patriarchs down to ol’ Hitler has done this. First sell the lemon of a “Dharmic Republic of Bharat” (one joker I know is making this pitch for years!) with conflicting, nebulous ideas and vaporware. Once you do away with the “Secularism = Basic principle of the Constitution” thingie you can go ahead with other insidious programs and unleash the “enforcers” and the pit-bulls.

    And BTW, I seen HHBB so passionately say non-conforming streams were always welcome in Ancient/Medieval Bharat. Therefore, Hinduism offers Twue Bluwe Secularism as against Plain Vanilla “FalSECularism” of today.
    So, the economic & social system, the demographics, the polity, the cultural milieu and the very Hindu FAITH(S) of today were the same back then? Was there a constitution in those polities of old, tied with Hindu scriptures…. constitutions that called for protection of the Heterodox and the outsiders? Hey, whenever foreigners (Greeks, Persians, CARs) came and defeated the local ruler they always were included as “Fallen Khsatriyas” and thus “approved” by the Priestly class (now headless chickens due to the fall of the sword arm). No place for nonconformists! You were either IN or OUT and “must havf all ze paperz at all ze times”. Certain Smritis and Shastras are MOST unkind to those that did not conform, the mongrel-folk consigned outside the order….. and those groups that rose up the ladder (Kayasthas, Viswakarmas, Malayala Shudras i.e. Nairs and even Veerasaivas) were roundly derided.
    And BTW, what exactly is this funda of “political Hinduism as a basis for the state”? What is Hinduism? Is this whole funda “Liberal” or is it “Optimal”? 😀 And who decides that? Forget the parochial Dharma Shastras, has the basic source Vedantic Shruti or even the major Upanishads/Brahmanas/Aranyakas been reworked? I mean in fundamental way and not extension movements such as Advaita etc? How does or how CAN one gauge stagnation in the face of racing modernity? Does review (like that of Shankaracharya etc) count? So, whose review is ultimately acceptable? Is it still open for review/amendment etc?

    Now unlike what these Knickers here claim, those old polities actually didn’t follow the “Hindu scriptures as the basis of the state” to the letter… it was pretty much a matter of “running interests”. At least it WAS for a long time. (You see, it was when the Land Grant systems finally solidified into the the monster of Indian feudalism and gave rise to certain High Caste groups that the social system fossilized, circa 700-900 AD. It was by this time that the last of the MAJOR Smritis were written). If it were so from the START we would never have had the good Economic-Social run we had from 200 BC-750 AD and the Caste System (and other such ills) would have been even worse and perhaps we all would have been speaking in Turkish/Persian now. So the very claim that “Hinduism alone” ensures the security of other faiths and even atheism is bogus.
    I say these “outsiders” survived, for a brief time, DESPITE the spirited efforts of some dinosaurs and vested interests, the same genus of people who holler “Hindu Rashtra” today. There probably weren’t any Cathar Holocausts of these schools (at least no records exists of such actions), for simply non-religious reasons I mentioned above, but there sure was Damnatio Memoriae and Hostile Takeover! Even powerful and proselytizing Indian Buddhist sects were meted out this treatment…. for a while even Jain communities had to live like “In Presence of Mine Enemies” before making themselves socially indistinct from the mainstream. Even within the major stream localized (tied to the land) Totems and Deities (Pratishtas) were often carried away with pretty much the same zeal as the Turk; Temple-Fortresses and Agraharas and Devadanas were sacked in invasions long before the Arab and the Turk came.
    I mean, WTH? The fantastic way in which the lemon of “Clash of Civilizations” is sold in India, with propagandu of “Life and Death struggle for 1300 years” and “Brave, misunderstood, twuely chivalrous, lily-white Hindu standing up against the drooling Rapist Muslim”…. wow. Just wow. And any one who picks holes in the Knickerwaalah’s stitching is a Dhimmi or Macaulayite or Commie or Self Hating Hindu or HISI or other such epithets. Hindu-Muslim interaction down the years sure wasn’t all roses, but it was not a saffron and green Hindu-Muslim thing either. The dynamics, the inter-relation are too complex and too layered to be dismissed by some Shaakha Historian waving around a stanza from Chand Bardai. One doesn’t need to be a rocket scientist to figure out why (and how) these right-wingers are painting this false picture.

    Finally, when Secularism is taken away… whats going to replace that big hole in the constitution? And what about the other basic features of the constitution? (Isn’t the Constitution descried as a consistent unit with any one feature bulwarking the other?) In Dharmic Republic of India WHO is going to decide what tenet from which book is applicable? Who decides what exactly is the Dharma here in that situation? On what basis? Is this particular ruling going to set legal precedents? Which new-fangled Western legal concept should be retained? Should “Wade on Law” be even allowed in this Punyabhumi, forget the Quran? Now how far is non-conformance acceptable? Who draws the line and where? Or if we are going to rework the whole “baseline” thing, who is going to write the new “constitution”? Again, on what basis? Now in case of inter-religious disputes (even legal one), is the very obviously Dharmic Hinduism be given a clean chit always? Would Muezzins be allowed to recite the Shahada over the loudspeakers? Would converted Temples be handed back to the faith in the brave new India?
    So many questions which I am pretty sure even Arun Blowhard Shourie or other such Talking-Head luminaries would find difficult to answer.

  158. @ Wanderer

    A lot of load you put on the scale. You could have combined it all together and written it all in ONE sentence.

    History proves that Secularism and dynamism is inherent in Hinduism. Period.
    🙂 Now didnt I say that before a few times.

    I loved one very pretty sentence from you stated below-
    “Hindu-Muslim interaction down the years sure wasn’t all roses, but it was not a saffron and green Hindu-Muslim thing either”.

    Rishi’s response.
    Now thats a understatement and whatever little syncretization that happened was a ONE WAY TRAFFIC …from the Hindu side….all the way until the Partition.
    Heck why partition its happening even today…we call it pseudo-secularism.

  159. @ Wanderer
    Let us begin by getting rid of smaller constitutional issues first before getting into the issue of Muezzins shouting Azaans.

    Small changes are done in a very democratic process.
    They are called constitutional amendments. 🙂

    Lets get-
    -Uniform Civil Code
    -Article 370 abrogation
    -Removal of Haj subsidies.
    -Appropriation of Hindu Temple Funding (which runs into billions).

    I assume you are with me on these.
    Lets start the process of getting these taken care of.

  160. @ dalit christains:

    i only mentioned this because rishi was shocked by pakele’s comment that the burning of churches in orissa had a caste dimension to it.

    i dont think this is the place to question india’s caste based reservation system.

    as an aside i had mentioned the argument which highlights the absurdity of leaving converts out of reservation.there is some legal credence to this argument though i havent thought it through to share it. my personal opinion is that affirmative action should only be on the basis of economic deprivation.

    why christianity? the dera sacha sauda controversy also has its roots in dalit sikhs. changing religions doesn’t kill caste. i think that’s pretty much proven.

    @ HHBB:

    “One of the most intelligent, progressive, successful and (overseas) admired group of Indians have rejected secularism as a crap concept”

    on the contrary this was a victory for the moderate faction in the BJP.
    i think you’re buying into hype if you think that Modi’s victory is about anything more than regional politics.

    @ Rishi/supporters of a hindu state:

    you want…

    -Uniform Civil Code

    directive principle of state policy. sorry. already part of our secular constitution. repeated requests by the Supreme Court to enact one.

    so dear friends for the last time this is not a failing of our legal system, it is a failing of the political class. please understand this.

    -Article 370 abrogation

    there is no reason why this isn’t possible in a secular country.

    however, please do not believe that special status is not possible within the Constitution depending upon circumstances of accession. like bhutan and sikkim and many other tribal areas in the north east.

    i know you guys like rewriting history but Hari Singh’s instrument of accession is the legal basis for india’s claim to Kashmir.

    but yeah.. we’ve already dishonored so many agreements with erstwhile royalty (police action in hyderabad, abolition of privy purses) that we may as well do one more.

    -Removal of Haj subsidies.

    a haj subsidy is haram. most muslim scholars will tell you that.

    a. there should be a fatwa against those who accept the state subsidy
    b. this is the exact opposite of secularism. not a failing of it.

    this is a pretty stupid situation.

    -Appropriation of Hindu Temple Funding (which runs into billions).

    one word and india’s favourite pastime- SCAM.

    in the indian legal system, idols are personalities that own property.
    i find this bizarre. but that’s indian secularism for you.

    look.. there is nothing wrong with a secular constitution.

    all the problems we see are created by the the political class which abrogates and deviates from it by resorting to populism.

  161. and most importantly, as the wanderer pointed out..

    how are you going to institutionalize hindusim as a form of government when the very basis of hinduism is similar to anarchy?

  162. WTF wrote:

    and most importantly, as the wanderer pointed out..hindusim as a form of government when the very basis of hinduism is similar to anarchy?

    Rishi’s response:
    So 4500 years of a dynamic history before the advent of Islam, being considered one of the world’s most advanced civilizations…. WAS ALL ANARCHY??

    Woww…WTF…u surpassed wanderer

  163. Khujur Miaaaaaaaaaaaan! My old phrienddddddddddd! I knew I could always rely on you to get things a$$-backward. 😀

    >>”History proves that Secularism and dynamism is inherent in Hinduism. Period.”

    You missed the forest for the trees. Menopause.

    I see many right wing nutjobs are trying to show that Ancient/Medieval Hinduism was always “cutting-edge spirituality” and the great progress was snuffed out when those hated Turushias rolled down the Khyber. Well, how does it explain the fossilization of the once-fluid caste system…. how does that explain the monster of Indian Feudalism… how does it explain to the spiritual gloss put on parochial social-structures and the threatening those who “cross the seas” with ostracization….. how does it account for the systematic destruction (i.e., from inside. Were the external reasons alone responsible?) of India’s international trade and deep industrial base in the early medieval age….. why were Smritis like the Manusmriti seen as the correct interpretation of society and law; they were called the Dharma Shastras, right?
    And all those who deride Xian Proselytizing and yelling that it is not “altruistic”, how altruistic are the Hindu versions of reconversion? Nobody….. except for the poor poor Mahatma, butchered by the Right Wing rat b@stards, cared or made systematic and large-scale efforts in bringing the Pariahs back into the mainstream. What, they didn’t know that the lowest castes were downtrodden till 1952? It was simply opportunistic and reactionary to INC efforts, instances like Meenakshipuram and efforts from within the lower castes. I should know, I hail from a state that was termed as the “Madhouse of India” by Swmai Vivekananda, due to the terrible social oppression in those days. It was not because of any Hindutva leader or some Armchair warrior or some Great Bulwarkerji… oops Golwarkerji thumping one of his Orange Books. It was due to secular, political and economic efforts… aided by sound legal principles, modern ideals and support of many High Caste people (who were promptly made “Dharmabrasht” en masse by the Brahmin Mahasabha).

    The rise of the Kayasthas etc and even the Heterodox/Atheistic/Extreme Sects did NOT stem from what was then “mainstream” Hinduism. It was a patrimonial-bureaucratic class which were composed of Vaishya/Shudra groups like Pushpal/Karnik/Chitragupt/Lehak which benefited from the Mauryan-Post Mauryan economic expansion and the relatively high fluidity of caste systems in Gupta age (due to a long spell of strong rule and prosperity). Kalhana’s Rajatarangini, Yajnavalka Smriti and other later smritis are extremely critical of these “usurpers without caste”. is In fact there were furious struggles and intrigue with Veerasiva founder assassinating his King (who persecuted them) and the kashmir King Vasugupta’s assassination for empowering the Kayasthas.
    As I said before, the rise of heterodox faiths and castes, the “dynamism” of Hinduism, was DESPITE the parochial, narrow minded gasbags who thought THEY alone had the power to interpret the scriptures and dictate the polity of the state.

    The new philosophies and new schools and new readings are well and good as long as it stays out of the business of running the state. History shows that once a section of people claim exclusive privileges (social/economical/politica) solely due to their birth and pedigree and power over certain religious (knowledge of the texts, self-professed capacity to interpret the Shruti and write Smritis), the society and the nation goes to sh1t. Brahmins and Brahmin clans getting Agraharas or Devadanas to run temples was fine… but when that extended to legalized authority (by circular logic vide religious texts) of the high classes to exert greater authority over the lower groups, you got the systematic trampling down of the artisans into the lower castes we know today. A Kshatriya strongman getting a fief is fine… but when it extends to near-autonomous position and economic dominance over his tenants (vide Social Status as backed by religious texts and muscle power) you had Indian feudalism.
    Essentially, letting hoary religious traditions/undefinable social meme to dictate how a nation is run and define National Polity INVARIABLY ends in tragedy. The greatest leap in Theory of Governance was separation of Church and the State…. in at least a high degree. Now these Jokers in Knickers want to reverse it and take us all back to Raktabija Raj. I dunno about you all but I don’t want to see India turn into a Hindu version of Pakistan… no matter the sweet claims of “Naaaah, this will not happen in OUR Hinduism. Trust us.”.

  164. @ Wanderer
    You write such huge posts portraying the diversity, dynamism , good, bad and ugly manifestations of Hindu Dharma..the very qualities / weakness that make it a polar opposite of Islam.

    You also show how temporary reactionery activism in Hindu society has always been secondary to a primarily diverse accepting Hindu socety in the long run.

    Then u turn around and say a Hindu India will become like Pakistan (a state whose sole reason of existance is the Quran).

    Trust me..I trust you when u say a Hindu India will never be like that 🙂

    PS: I typed up a response before but it just vanished.

  165. >> Re Khujur

    Ooooh “temporary reactionary activism” and “primary reactionary accepting”! 😀

    Quite a leap of faith putting the entire socio-cultural setup from 550/600 AD-1947 AD as a “temporary” manifestation. Didn’t you get it…or are you simply clueless about the rise of certain castes/esoteric doctrines? These were “outsiders”, barring Buddhism & Jainism, were quite localized (centred around a major figure/clan/temple), they were a result of rare quirks of socio-economic (or even political) upheaval. These groups took a BIG break or a brand new interpretation of existing, “mainstream” Hinduism of those times and survived/thrived DESPITE the odds stacked against them. It wasn’t like a logical extension of the original Shruti or a continuing tradition from old, was it? And when these doctrines went out of official patronage and thus their flowering phase ended, weren’t they simply done away with as an idea by the mainstream? Barring a few Kapalikas and Kalamukhas in Varanasi, how many of the extreme/non-conformist groups are around today? What is the attitude of Political Hinduism, an “organised religion” in itself, towards such fringe groups? Anyone has references on this funda? The references I have don’t given a very flattering or understanding outlook…..

    Now every knickerwaalah claims Buddhism was peacefully accepted (keyword accepted) into the mainstream; it is true to the extent that there seems to be have no major bloodshed in that long process. But there exists some documented evidences of strong arm techniques though…. But when they included Buddha into the Pantheon, did they append the main teachings like Eight-Fold Path or the inclusive and robust Sangha Order or the culture of Buddhist traditions of mass-education/historiography/communal prayer/early egalitarianism etc? All that was done was appropriating the now semi-deified Sakyamuni Buddha for themselves and taking over some minor Totems and Localized deified (composite) versions of Buddha into the “mainstream”. This along with claiming “baser” Vajrayana Occult and other minor rituals and polishing Bhakti-Vigraha concepts. How many of us truly include Buddha in our prayers and how many Hindu temples have additional pratishtas of Buddha?
    Now tell me, does this look like Acceptance (or even assimilation) or is it simply “swallowing up” as in Vatapi Jeerno-Bhava and magnanimously claiming high pedestal.

    >> “Polar opposite of Islam” and “Pakistan”

    Oh yes, bad bad baaaaaaaad Islam. Always the same. Monstrous. Monolithic. Easily summarized into a couple of sentences. Very Black and White onlee. The “Eternal Muzzie” with his lust and his hate from which “poor Hindu girls at the roadside have to cower in fear from”. How very convenient.

    BTW, if you think Koran was the “raisin dieter” of Pakistan you can’t be farther from the truth. It was the manifestation of the political goalds of the Landed High Class Muslim movers and shakers and Ulema who realized (after the 1931 Karachi Resolution, and the later Lucknow and Faizpur resolutions of the INC) that they will lose what little they have left of their former glory once India is free. A goal that converged with Western Geopolitical interests in Asia, a shadow of the Great game as best described by Narendra Sarila. It was simply the end result of your Islamist Brothers at Arms to carve out an Ilaka where they can run their own fiefdoms like the Iqtas/Mansabs of old. Where their narrow interests are sugar-coated by Fatwas and restricted interpretation of the Islamic texts. Islam was just the cutout… a posion pill swallowed by the frontier communities following the vortex of communal violence of the 46-47…… that very concept they just recently rejected at the polls.
    And guess what, the Truth crashed their little party and Bad Karma came to bite them in the a$$. BTW, even while killing Hindus all through D.A Day, Jinnah was promising a land where minorities were free and content as long as they accept that “Pakistan ka matlab Kya, La Illaha Il Allah”. Sounds very familiar to the sales pitch one hears from the saffronistas, right?

    Finally, the knickerwaalahs and their deluded groupies better remember what happens ultimately to ALL those who want to define nationhood, identity and polity via religious inclination or religious literature from eons ago.

  166. Very true is it said that “A picture is worth a thousand words “…
    I had my stomach aching after laughing so much.
    😀

  167. @ rishi:

    as usual you misunderstand me..

    while trying to define hinduism, as a religion i found a strange parallel to those who think that anarchy should be a form of government.

    please don’t take the word ‘anarchy’ literally. it a political theory that is similar to communism or democracy.

    for example, a major problem that the anarchy movement in Italy found, was that prominent anarchists would not attend meetings as it was against their belief to organize.

    you know, as a nation-state, india defies any pre-existing definition of the characteristics that have traditionally let to state formation. no one language or religion or culture.

    hinduism is very similar. it defies any definition that traditional religions have. i mean it even provides for atheism!

    tomorrow, i could build a catholic country in a snap. the whole political system for running a country exists within it the religion. the queen for example is head of the Anglican chruch in England.

    can you say the same for hinduism?

    how do you make hinduism a political system without excluding the supremacy of brahmins in society?

    should we even bother to waste our meager resources on such problems when people do not have access to drinking water, education or healthcare?

    so i agree with the wanderer that abolishing secularism will leave a massive gaping hole in the political establishment.

    please think about these things when you advocate a social revolution for india at a time when we are finally getting somewhere in abolishing poverty and taking our rightful place on the world stage.

  168. @ WTF
    When you use the word anarchy, you did sound like you mena it in the literal sence, a lawless society with a “free for all” way of life.
    the Hindu way of life, prior to the advent of I

  169. ..oops computer acting up again..

    so I was saying, the Hindu way of life prior to the advent of the Islamic invasion has been admittedly more advanced and civilized, and in accepted as that by most historians around the world including the Darth Vaders like Romilla Aunty.

    Hinduism’s biggest strength has been its ability to adapt and change with science and time.

    You do not by any means need a guild system of “varna based society” that was hallmark of the 9th century.

    The world today with its emphasis on knowlege, the self and tolerance is far more condusive to the mainstream Hindu philosphies than ever before.

    Dont be pessimistic and throw the baby with the bathwater. Once again remember, true secularism has always been part of major Hindu philosophies.

    But pseudo-secualrsim is nothing but suicide.

  170. @ Wanderer
    You didnt read my previous post.
    Contradicted yourself again in the last paragraph after writing a huge comment. You gotta read the Quran again. Too much Vidya Bharati is not good for ur health 🙂

  171. Hello Indian friends,

    My name is Muhamad Sriyanto. I am an Indonesian (from Bandung) now living in China for the past 2 years. I like reading this blog as it is a good way to learn about popular Indian culture, movies etc. My beautiful country owes a lot of its culture, history and traditions to India. Indonesians were part of a rich Hindu-Buddhist civilization until we got Arabicized to the point where our own children become suicide bombers to kill our own brothers in Hindu-vestige Bali and have tried in vain to bomb Borobudor repeatedly. I am sick and tired of the attacks to wipe out what’s left of Indonesian heritage.

    Any particle will be in an agitated state until it returns to its undisturbed, natural state of harmony (which is the core of every being). The ultraviolence seen in Indonesia, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Malaysia and other converted lands today is a result of the agitation produced in people’s minds due to conversion to a foreign way-of-life. When all its peoples return to their true intrinsic state of Dharma, they will find their peace that is at the core of their hearts. Until then, the violence will continue… just like a ship battered by a storm that is brought about by foreign winds churning up the water into gigantic waves. When the foreign winds subside and go away, then the storm ceases and the water becomes still and attains a calm state of being (that is its harmonic state).

    I went to India (Bangalore) in 2005 to attend a conference. I am sorry to sound judgmental, but I feel many Hindus in urban India are so ignorant and apathetic about Hinduism. When I expressed my wish to return back to Hinduism, they did not know or care about it. In fact it is to India’s advantage that you promote Dharma vigourously to build allies and counter the ultra-violence that is innate to Middle-Eastern religions.

    A personal question to all: How can I scripturally revert to Hinduism? When I do revert, I will take a Hindu name that is meaningful to my quest. If you can help, please advise me or send me an email: sriyanto_2002@yahoo.co.id

    Terima Kasih.

    Om Swasti Astu.

  172. I also posted an article on Indonesia, but it is not showing up in the comments section.

    Moderators, please approve my second comment.

  173. Hello Muhamad Sriyanto.
    First, we must thank Arnab for providing this fantastic forum that has given us the opportunity to interact with each other. This internet blog has been the fountainhead of so many meaningful discussions, initiated in the most subtle manner by Arnab, also known as Greatbong. I really appreciate your positive thoughts on Hindu Dharma as well as our wish to revert back to Hinduism.
    As you can see, Hindus encourage diversity of thought and the primacy of intellect. Commentators like Hara Hara Bom Bom, Yourfan2, WTF, Wanderer, Shan, Sunil, Kannan, Sayon and so many others enrich the growth of thoughtprocess and analysis of our contemporary societies, through their incisive analysis and variety of opinions.
    I hope your trip to India was a comfortable experience, even though I regret that your expectations of Hindu ideas did not stand up to its expectations in Bangalore. I must say that as a Hindu who spent most of his early life in Urban India, in the 80s and 90s, spirituality and Hindu Dharma are not really as pervasive as you would expect it to be.
    Having said that, I should duly mention that Hindu ideas and philosophies pervade the landscape, from Kashmir to Kanyakumari and Dwarika to Kamakhya as much as it does in the heavenly land of Bali. I wish I could also mention Hinglaaj, Kapisa, Dhaka and Yogyakarta to the list above but time and travails of Islam, as you mentioned have taken its toll.
    Coming to the point, you can find a lot of information about reversion to Hindu Dharma at the following site
    http://www.himalayanacademy.com/resources/books/hbh/hbh_table_of_contents.html
    Do write to the Himalayan academy for more information on reversion
    Also, Arya Samaj ( www(DOT)aryasamaj(DOT)com/ ) allows you the convenience of a official reversion to Hindu Dharma in India.
    It will be a pleasure to hear from you. My id rishi_khujur(AT)rediffmail(DOT)com
    Let stay in touch.

  174. An article on Indonesia that will be interesting to some Indians:

    Great Expectations: Hindu Revival Movements in Java, Indonesia

    By Dr. Thomas Reuter

    Hindu empires had flourished in Java for a millennium until they were replaced by expanding Islamic polities in the 15th century, setting the stage for Indonesia becoming the world’s largest Muslim nation. In the 1970s, however, a new Hindu revival movement began to sweep across the archipelago. Hinduism is gaining even greater popularity at this time of national crisis, most notably in Java, the political heart of Indonesia. Based on preliminary ethnographic research in five communities with major Hindu temples, this paper explores the political history and social dynamics of Hindu revivalism in Java. Rejecting formalist approaches to the study of religion, including the notion of ‘syncretism ‘, the Hindu revival movements of Java are treated as an illustration of how social agents employ religious or secular concepts and values in their strategic responses to the particular challenges and crises they may face in a specific cultural, social, political and historical setting.

    Expectations of a great crisis at the imminent dawn of new golden age, among followers of the Hindu revival movement in Java, are an expression of utopian prophesies and political aspirations more widely known and shared among contemporary Indonesians. These utopian expectations are set to shape the prospects of Indonesia’s fledgling democracy. In this paper, I will reflect on the different historical conditions under which these and similar utopian expectations and associated social movements arise, and may either either incite violent conflict or serve a positive role in the creation or maintenance of a fair society.

    My interest in Java is recent and arose inadvertently from nearly a decade of earlier research on the neighboring island of Bali. The majority of Balinese consider themselves descendants of noble warriors from the Hindu Javanese empire Majapahit who conquered Bali in the 14th century. A growing number of Balinese are conducting pilgrimages to Hindu temples in Java, most of which have been built in places identified as sacred sites in traditional Balinese texts (often written in Old-Javanese language). Balinese have been heavily involved in the construction and ritual maintenance of these new Hindu temples in Java. They further dominate organizations representing Hinduism at a national level. Finally, many Javanese Hindu priests have been trained in Bali.

    I had the opportunity to gain a first hand impression of the expansion of Hinduism in Java and of Balinese involvement therein during a field trip in late 1999. Following preliminary ethnographic research in eight different Hindu Javanese communities it became evident that this movement has its own dynamics and rationale, no matter how much it may have been spurred by Balinese support. Most thought-provoking, perhaps, were the emotional accounts of events since 1965 leading up to a resurgence of Hinduism, and the constant references to the famous Javanese prophesies of Sabdapalon and Jayabaya.

    On an earlier field trip in 1995, I was also able to visit central and southern Kalimantan where a large Hindu movement has grown among the local Ngaju Dayak population. The lead-up to a mass declaration for ‘Hinduism’ on this island was rather different to the Javanese case, in that conversions followed a clear ethnic division. Indigenous Dayak were confronted with a mostly Muslim population of government-sponsored (and predominantly Javanese) migrants and officials, and deeply resentful at the dispossession of their land and its natural resources. Compared to their counterparts among Javanese Hindus, many Dayak leaders were also more deeply concerned about Balinese efforts to standardize Hindu ritual practice nationally; fearing a decline of their own unique ‘Hindu Kaharingan’ traditions and renewed external domination.

    The Javanese Hindu revival movement is in many ways unique, and its recent expansion may surprise a casual observer. Java is often viewed as the headquarters of Islam within the world’s most populous Muslim nation. On its own, however, this superficial image fails to do justice to the immensely complex and varied cultural history of this island; a history that continues to exert a profound influence on contemporary Javanese society. A glance at one of the many ancient monuments scattered across its landscape would suffice to remind one of a very different Java, where a succession of smaller and larger Hindu kingdoms flourished for more than a millennium, producing a unique and dynamic mixture of Indic and indigenous Austronesian culture. At the peak of its influence in the 14th century the last and largest among Hindu Javanese empires, Majapahit, reached far across the Indonesian archipelago. This accomplishment is interpreted in modern nationalist discourses as an early historical beacon of Indonesian unity and nationhood, a nation with Java still at its center.

    That the vast majority of contemporary Javanese and Indonesians are now Muslims is the outcome of a process of subsequent Islamization. Like Hinduism before it, Islam first advanced into the archipelago along powerful trade networks, gaining a firm foothold in Java with the rise of early Islamic polities along the northern coast. Hinduism finally lost its status as Java’s dominant state religion during the 15th and early 16th century, as the new sultanates expanded and the great Hindu empire Majapahit collapsed. Even then, some smaller Hindu polities persisted; most notably the kingdom of Blambangan in eastern Java, which remained intact until the late 18th century.

    Islam met with a different kind of resistance at a popular and cultural level. While the majority of Javanese did become ‘Muslims’, following the example of their rulers, for many among them this was a change in name only. Earlier indigenous Javanese and Hindu traditions were retained by the rural population and even within the immediate sphere of the royal courts, especially in a context of ritual practice. In this sense, the victory of Islam has remained incomplete until today.

    Insofar as it is justifiable to speak of a trend toward increasing ‘orthodoxy’ in Indonesian Islam in the 20th century, a trend which applies similarly to Indonesian Hinduism and Christianity, this phenomenon must be assessed against the historical background of colonialism, the subsequent establishment of an independent Indonesian state, and the advent of modernity. In the colonial and post-colonial era, an ever more popular and educated acceptance of Islam was gained, in Java and elsewhere, through the work of independent or government Islamic organizations with an anti-colonial and modernist socio-political orientation. In the wake of this still continuing process of rationalization, a conceptual potential has been created for greater socio-political polarization among the followers of different and, now, more precisely distinguishable ‘religions’. Nevertheless, the more orthodox among Javanese Muslims, who tend to identify themselves with a more modern and global notion of Islamic religion, are still a minority and are themselves divided into factions (for example, over the issue of whether to aspire toward a secular or an Islamic Indonesian state). Most recently these divisions became apparent during the dismissal of President Wahid on charges of incompetency.

    To a large and growing number of equally ‘modern’ Javanese, however, their ancient Hindu past is still very present indeed, and prophesied to come alive once more in the near future. A utopian Hindu revival movement has emerged in Java over the last three decades of the twentieth century, and is gathering momentum in the turmoil of Indonesia’s continuing economic and political crisis. Drawing on ancient prophesies, many of its members believe that a great natural cataclysm or final battle is at hand in which Islam will be swept from the island to conclude the current age of darkness. Thereafter, they say, Hindu civilization will be restored to its former glory – with Java as the political center of a new world order that will last for a thousand years.

    Adding to the concern of Muslim observers, the Javanese Hindu movement is part of a wider national phenomenon of Hindu revivalism and expansion. Situated at the heart of Indonesia, however, the Hindu movement in Java may have the most serious implications yet for the social and political stability of the nation as a whole. In addition, the same mood of apocalyptic fear, utopian expectation and revivalist zeal is shared by many Javanese Muslims. This is made evident in a number of revivalist Islamic movements, whose members also tend to describe the present as an age of moral and social decay.

    Recent incidents of inter-religious violence in the Moluccas and Lombok, and the major importance afforded to religious affiliation in Indonesia’s recent parliamentary and 1998 presidential elections are both indicative of a national trend towards religious polarization (Ramstedt 1998). Such polarization has not been characteristic of Javanese society, particularly at a community level, where neighborhood cooperation and social peace have been valued more highly than religious convictions (Beatty 1999). With nominal Muslims now openly converting to Hinduism this could well change, tearing away at the delicate web of compromises that is the very fabric of Javanese society. On a more positive note, Indonesians of all confessions also share an urgent desire for political reform and genuine democracy, and may still be prepared to cooperate in the struggle to achieve this common aim.

    The emergence of a self-conscious Hindu revival movement within Javanese society is thus a highly significant development. The following preliminary outline of this movement is to provide an appraisal of some of the deep social divisions and widely shared utopian aspirations in contemporary Indonesian society which are set to shape the immediate future of this fragile nation.

    Hindu Revivalism in Historical and Political Context

    While many Javanese have retained aspects of their indigenous and Hindu traditions through the centuries of Islamic influence, under the banner of ‘Javanist religion’ (kejawen) or a non-orthodox ‘Javanese Islam’ (abangan, cf. Geertz 1960), no more than a few isolated communities have consistently upheld Hinduism as the primary mark of their public identity. One of these exceptions are the people of the remote Tengger highlands (Hefner 1985, 1990) in the province of Eastern Java. The Javanese ‘Hindus’ with whom this paper is concerned, however, are those who had officially declared themselves ‘Muslims’ prior to their recent conversion to Hinduism.

    In an unpublished report in 1999, the National Indonesian Bureau of Statistics tacitly admits that nearly 100,000 Javanese have officially converted or ‘reconverted’ from Islam to Hinduism over the last two decades. At the same time, the East Javanese branch of the government Hindu organization PHDI (below) in an annual report claims the ‘Hindu congregation’ (umat hindu) of this province to have grown by 76,000 souls in this year alone. The figures are not entirely reliable or objective, nor can they adequately reflect the proportions of Java’s new Hindu revival movement, based as they are on the religion stated on people’s identity cards (kartu tanda penduduk or ‘KTP’) or on other measures of formal religious affiliation. According to my own observations, many conversions are informal only, at least for now. In addition, formal figures often do not adequately distinguish between religious conversions and general population growth, given that most government agencies only record people’s religion at birth.

    Problems with estimating rates of conversion aside, it is remarkable that despite their local minority status the total number of Hindus in Java now exceeds that of Hindus in Bali. Data collected independently during my preliminary research in Eastern Java further suggest that the rate of conversion accelerated dramatically during and after the collapse of former President Suharto’s authoritarian regime in 1998.

    Officially identifying their religion as Hinduism was not a legal possibility for Indonesians until 1962, when it became the fifth state-recognized religion. This recognition was initially sought by Balinese religious organizations and granted for the sake of Bali, where the majority were Hindu. The largest of these organizations, Parisada Hindu Dharma Bali, changed its name to P.H.D. Indonesia (PHDI) in 1964, reflecting subsequent efforts to define Hinduism as a national rather than just a Balinese affair (Ramstedt 1998). In the early seventies, the Toraja people of Sulawesi were the first to realize this opportunity by seeking shelter for their indigenous ancestor religion under the broad umbrella of ‘Hinduism’, followed by the Karo Batak of Sumatra in 1977 and the Ngaju Dayak of Kalimantan in 1980 (Bakker 1995).

    Religious identity became a life and death issue for many Indonesians around the same time as Hinduism gained recognition, namely, in the wake of the violent anti-Communist purge of 1965-66 (Beatty 1999). Persons lacking affiliation with a state recognized-religion tended to be classed as atheists and hence as communist suspects. Despite the inherent disadvantages of joining a national religious minority, a deep concern for the preservation of their traditional ancestor religions made Hinduism a more palatable option than Islam for several ethnic groups in the outer islands. By contrast, most Javanese were slow to consider Hinduism at the time, lacking a distinct organization along ethnic lines and fearing retribution from locally powerful Islamic organizations like the Nahdatul Ulama (NU). The youth wing of the NU had been active in the persecution not only of communists but of ‘Javanist’ or ‘anti-Islamic’ elements within Sukarno’s Indonesian Nationalist Party (PNI) during the early phase of the killings (Hefner 1987). Practitioners of ‘Javanist’ mystical traditions thus felt compelled to declare themselves Muslims out of a growing concern for their safety.

    The initial assessment of having to abandon ‘Javanist’ traditions in order to survive in an imminent Islamic state proved incorrect. President Sukarno’s eventual successor, Suharto, adopted a distinctly nonsectarian approach in his so-called ‘new order’ (orde baru) regime. Old fears resurfaced, however, with Suharto’s ‘Islamic turn’ in the 1990s. Initially a resolute defender of Javanist values, Suharto began to make overtures to Islam at that time, in response to wavering public and military support for his government. A powerful signal was his authorization and personal support of the new ‘Association of Indonesian Muslim Intellectuals’ (ICMI), an organization whose members openly promoted the Islamization of Indonesian state and society (Hefner 1997). Concerns grew as ICMI became the dominant civilian faction in the national bureaucracy, and initiated massive programs of Islamic education and mosque-building through the Ministry of Religion (departemen agama), once again targeting Javanist strongholds. Around the same time, there were a series of mob killings by Muslim extremists of people they suspected to have been practicing traditional Javanese methods of healing by magical means.

    Repeated experiences of harassment or worse have left adherents of Javanist traditions with deep-seated fears and resentments. In interviews conducted in 1999, recent Hindu converts in eastern and central Java confessed that they had felt comfortable with a tenuous Islamic identity until 1965, but that their ‘hearts turned bitter’ once they felt coerced to disavow their private commitment to ‘Hindu Javanese ‘ traditions by abandoning the specific ritual practices which had come to be associated therewith. In terms of their political affiliation, many contemporary Javanists and recent converts to Hinduism had been members of the old PNI, and have now joined the new nationalist party of Megawati Sukarnoputri. Informants from among this group portrayed their return to the ‘religion of Majapahit’ (Hinduism) as a matter of nationalist pride, and displayed a new sense political self-confidence. Political trends aside, however, the choice between Islam and Hinduism is often a highly personal matter. Many converts reported that other members of their families have remained ‘Muslims’, out of conviction or in the hope that they will be free to maintain their Javanist traditions in one way or another.

    These observations provide no more than a preliminary sketch of the changing landscape of cross-cutting and sometimes contradictory social, political and religious identities wherein the Javanese Hindu revival movement is taking shape. In essence, the collapse of the authoritarian Suharto regime has allowed old rivalries between Islamic and Nationalist parties to resurface in a changed environment and in a new guise. This has led to a degree of socio-political polarization as has not been seen since the 1960s revolution, although it may have been an inherent conceptual possibility throughout modern Indonesian history.

    Hindu Revivalism in Social and Economic Context

    A common feature among new Hindu communities in Java is that they tend to rally around recently built temples (pura) or around archaeological temple sites (candi) which are being reclaimed as places of Hindu worship. One of several new Hindu temples in eastern Java is Pura Mandaragiri Sumeru Agung, located on the slope of Mt Sumeru, Java’s highest mountain. When the temple was completed in July 1992, with the generous aid of wealthy donors from Bali, only a few local families formally confessed to Hinduism.

    A pilot study in December 1999 revealed that the local Hindu community now has grown to more than 5000 households. Similar mass conversions have occurred in the region around Pura Agung Blambangan, another new temple, built on a site with minor archaeological remnants attributed to the kingdom of Blambangan, the last Hindu polity on Java. A further important site is Pura Loka Moksa Jayabaya (in the village of Menang near Kediri), where the Hindu king and prophet Jayabaya is said to have achieved spiritual liberation (moksa). A further Hindu movement in the earliest stages of development was observed in the vicinity of the newly completed Pura Pucak Raung (in the Eastern Javanese district of Glenmore), which is mentioned in Balinese literature as the place where the Hindu saint Maharishi Markandeya gathered followers for an expedition to Bali, whereby he is said to have brought Hinduism to Bali in the fifth century AD.

    An example of resurgence around major archaeological remains of ancient Hindu temple sites was observed in Trowulan near Mojokerto. The site may be the location of the capital of the legendary Hindu empire Majapahit. A local Hindu movement is struggling to gain control of a newly excavated temple building which they wish to see restored as a site of active Hindu worship. The temple is to be dedicated to Gajah Mada, the man attributed with transforming the small Hindu kingdom of Majapahit into an empire. Although there has been a more pronounced history of resistance to Islamization in East Java, Hindu communities are also expanding in Central Java (Lyon 1980), for example in Klaten, near the ancient Hindu monuments of Prambanan.

    It is a common feature of social organization in neighboring Bali to find temples at the hub of various networks of social affiliation (Reuter 1998). Temples may be equally important for Hindu Javanese, though for different reasons. Clear ethnic or clan-like divisions are generally lacking in Javanese society, and in any case, would be too exclusive to promote a rapid expansion of new Hindu communities. How social relations take shape within the support networks of Javanese Hindu temples and how they differ from those among patrons of Balinese temples remains to be explored, as is also true of the ritual practice of Javanese Hindus. Some of the resemblances observed so far seem to reflect not only the common historical influence of Hinduism in Java and Bali, but also a common indigenous cultural heritage shared among these and other Austronesian-speaking societies (Fox & Sathers 1996).

    Taking Pura Sumeru as an example, it is also important to note that major Hindu temples can bring a new prosperity to local populations. Apart from employment in the building, expansion, and repair of the temple itself, a steady stream of Balinese pilgrims to this now nationally recognized temple has led to the growth of a sizeable service industry. Ready-made offerings, accommodation, and meals are provided in an ever-lengthening row of shops and hotels along the main road leading to Pura Sumeru. At times of major ritual activity tens of thousands of visitors arrive each day. Pilgrims’ often generous cash donations to the temple also find their way into the local economy. Pondering with some envy on the secret to the economic success of their Balinese neighbors, several local informants concluded that “Hindu culture may be more conducive to the development of an international tourism industry than is Islam”. Economic considerations also come into play insofar as members of this and other Hindu revival movements tend to cooperate in a variety of other ways, including private business ventures which are unrelated to their joint religious practices as such.

    Hindu Revivalism as a Utopian Movement

    Followers and opponents alike explain the sudden rise of a Hindu revival movement in Java by referring to the well-known prophecies of Sabdapalon and Jayabaya. In this they reveal a number of shared utopian and apocalyptic expectations, even though their interpretations of the prophesies differ significantly. These mixed expectations have been a reflection of growing popular dissatisfaction with the corrupt and dictatorial Suharto government in the 1990s and until its demise in 1998, following student riots and popular demonstrations in many major Javanese cities in the wake of the Asian economic crisis. They also draw inspiration from a deeper crisis of political and economic culture still current in Indonesia today. The Indonesia’s present first democratically elected government under President Abdurahman Wahid’s leadership again has attracted criticism, increasingly so in during recent months, as the nation continueds to be threatened by religious conflict, secession movements in Aceh and West Papua, and by government corruption scandals. Under the new presidency of Megawati Sukarnoputri (from 23 July 2001) this sense of political instability is widely expected to persist. At the same time many also fear a possible return to the repression of the Suharto years. It is the prophesies of Sabdapalon and Jayabaya that provide perhaps the most ready vehicle for the interpretation of these tumultuous political events, to the members of Hindu revival movements as well as their opponents. The prophesies of Sabdapalon and Jayabaya provide a ready vehicle for the interpretation of these events, to the members of Hindu revival movements as well as their opponents.

    Sabdapalon is said to have been a priest and an adviser to Brawijaya V, the last ruler of the Hindu empire Majapahit. He is also said to have cursed his king upon the conversion of the latter to Islam in 1478. Sabdapalon then promised to return, after 500 years and at a time of widespread political corruption and natural disasters, to sweep Islam from the island and restore Hindu-Javanese religion and civilization. Some of the first new Hindu temples built in Java were indeed completed around 1978, for example Pura Blambangan in the regency of Banyuwangi. As the prophesies foretold, Mt Sumeru erupted around the same time. All this is taken as evidence of the accuracy of Sabdapalon’s predictions. Islamic opponents of the Hindu movements accept the prophesies, at least in principle, though their interpretations differ. Some attribute the Hindu conversions to a temporary weakness within Islam itself, laying blame on the materialism of modern life, on an associated decline of Islamic values, or on the persistent lack of orthodoxy among practitioners of ‘Javanese Islam’ (Soewarno 1981). In their opinion, the ‘return of Sabdapalon’ is meant to test Islam and to propel its followers toward a much needed revitalization and purification of their faith.

    A further prophesy, well-known throughout Java and Indonesia, is the Ramalan (or Jangka) Jayabaya. A recent publication on these prophesies by Soesetro & Arief (1999) has become a national best seller. The predictions of Jayabaya are also discussed frequently in daily newspapers. These ancient prophesies, indeed, are very much a part of a current public debate on the ideal shape of a new and genuinely democratic Indonesia.

    The historical personage Sri Mapanji Jayabaya reigned over the kingdom of Kediri in East Java from 1135 to 1157 AD (Buchari 1968:19). He is known for his efforts to reunify Java after a split had occurred with the death of his predecessor Airlangga, for his just and prosperous rule, and for his dedication to the welfare of the common people. Reputed to have been an incarnation of the Hindu deity Vishnu, Jayabaya is also the archetypal image of the ‘just king’ (ratu adil) who is reborn during the dark age of reversal (jaman edan) at the end of each cosmic cycle to restore social justice, order, and harmony in the world. Many believe that the time for the arrival of a new ratu adil is near (as the prophesies put it, “when iron wagons drive without horses and ships sail through the sky [i.e. cars and airplanes]”), and that he will come to rescue and reunite Indonesia after an acute crisis, ushering in the dawn of a new golden age. These apocalyptic and utopian expectations evoke the notion of a revolving cosmic cycle, of a glorious past declining into a present state of moral decay, where the ideal order of things is momentarily inverted, only to be restored again in a future that is in effect a return to the past.

    Hindu Javanese emphasize with pride that their ancestors Sabdapalon and Jayabaya represent a golden pre-Islamic age. Islamic opponents, in turn, claim that Jayabaya was in fact a Muslim and that Sabdapalon had only resisted conversion because what he was confronted with at the time was but a muddled and impure version of Islam (Soewarno 1981). Nevertheless, Muslim and Hindu interpreters agree that this is the time of reckoning, of major political reform if not a revolution. They also tend to agree that a truly democratic system of government may only be realized with the help of a leader of the highest moral caliber, thus blending modern notions of democracy with traditional notions of charismatic leadership.

    That the prophesies of Jayabaya are of profound significance to Indonesians of very different persuasion and from all walks of life is illustrated by the secret visits (once before he was nominated as a presidential candidate and again before his election) of President Abdurahman Wahid (then head of the NU) to the ancestral origin temple of Raja Jayabaya in Bali, the remote mountain sanctuary Pura Pucak Penulisan. After a solitary nocturnal devotion at this ancient Hindu temple, as local priests told me, Gus Dur (the president’s popular nickname) spoke with them at length about Jayabaya’s prophesies and the imminent arrival of a new ratu adil. Opponents of Gus Dur have prefered to identify his government with another passage in the prophesies, which refer to “a king whose [interim] rule shall last no longer than the life span of a maize plant”.

    From the website – http://www.hinduwisdom.info/Glimpses_XII.htm

  175. Thank you Arnab for providing this forum… and Rishi_khujur for the warm welcome. I will definitely check out the link you have mentioned.

    I would like you to read this comprehensive book, if possible:
    “Hinduism in Modern Indonesia”
    Author: Martin Ramstedt
    Release Date: 2004-02-01
    ISBN: 0700715339
    IPublisher: Routledge
    Book Type: Hardcover

  176. Re Khujur

    Gee, thanks for your kind suggestion to “read the Koran” once again; I am sure you became a true Hafiz after years (if not months) of googling out and cherry picking (Ctrl F) Koranic verses from truly unbiased sources such as VOI, Faithfreedom and Bharatvani. 😀
    BTW, care to point out how I contradicted myself in “the last paragraph” or how I misread the truth of your enlightened posts? I really wish to know, O Supreme Guardian of the Arcane Truth.

    PS: I’m sorry but I didn’t go to Vidya Bharati (moi went to a Jesuit school) nor BVB is my sole reference for history and sociology.

  177. @The Wanderer:
    If I were you, I wouldn’t antagonize the Khujur too much. He’s got Romanian conscripts on his side. The ones that know everything there is to know about the Ak-47…:-)
    Oh, and in case you run away to north east india, He can ask his Seng Khasi contacts to go and get you…
    Of course, the pracharaks he knows could get the chaddhis after you in a flash…
    You can run, but you can’t hide from THE KHUJUR…!

  178. @ rishi:

    your arguments about hinduism and secularism are confusing.

    on one hand secularism is not the system to protect ourselves from islam.

    on the other hand hinduism is secular.

    therefore, the following issues rise:

    1. hinduism’s inherent secularism will be ineffective in countering the insidiousness of islam.

    2. so then shouldn’t hinduism be less secular, a little bit more malevolent and assertive in order to protect itself? but then can such a philosophy be called hindu?

    3. if hinduism and secularism are one and the same thing, then won’t changing india’s name to bharat, secular to hindu, be like calling bombay mumbai?

    (please let me know if you think the change in names actually result in anything)

    4. your proposed hindu india will surely be a democracy right?

    surely muslims will have the right to vote and citizenship as hinduism is secular and tolerant. in that case what will prevent politicians from resorting to populism in order to capture the muslim vote like they do now?

    the alternative is that some sort of apartheid must be practiced against muslims in order to get them to revert. do you consider it advisable from a foreign relations point of view (forget human rights) to conduct an apartheid in india?

    5. how is a hindu state going to prevent corruption by power as we are all aware of how corruptible even clergy can be?

    so to sum up,

    – india’s present political infrastructure, is in line with the best of modern thinking and is best suited for the country.

    – it has served the country fantastically well providing Indians by and large with unprecedented peace, stability and PRIDE for over 60 years. it is on the basis of this system that india will take a place amongst global leadership in another fifteen years raising our heads further.

    – the concept of a hindu india as a form of political governance is ludicrious and defies logic.

    – nothing will change even if this hindu chauvinist pipe dream comes true. if anything, things will become worse risking international approbation and a civil war. problems we do not need in this country right now.

    – if we want things to get better let us concentrate the resources of our government on feeding and educating our population so that they don’t vote like donkeys and reproduce like rabbits. rich hindus living in america can worry about culture and spirituality.

    the end.

  179. @ WTF
    You are right and brougt up a very valid point.
    From the first day I started commenting, I have maintained that Hinduism by nature is secular.
    The fundamental values of secularism diversity of ideas, have often been a hinderance in its interaction with violent exclusivist systems like Islam.
    That is why Hinduism has been responsible for providing 60 to 70% of Islam’s numbers througout the ages.

    Having said that, I have also given examples on how on ocassion Hinduism has used temporarily modified aggressive ideas to stave of similar ones. (a almost Smriti-like approach). That level of “just enough organization” differentiates Hinduism from the a pure Anarchist system.

    My points have always been that in order to deal with Islam, we have to modify ourselves (a similar time bound Smriti approach) in our responses. Something that is not fundamental to our basics by a temporary move to counter Islam.

    That does not mean that it will be a purely militaristic response. In fact very rarely, will you see me talking extensively on military solutions for I believe that a social, goal-oriented and co-ordinated response many a times doesnt even require a military one.

    Such temporary efforts have been succesfully done in the past. Our flexibility and strength of philosphies, allows us to do that.

    Theoritically, your suggestion of feeding the poor and providing education IS VERY MUCH A PART OF any developmental process in any system, whether democratic or not.

    But, history and events have shown us that it alone cannot change the ground realities. You cannot deal with a malady by just eating well. You also have to take medicines. We have gone through reams and reams of comments on that point. HHBB, Hujur, Yourfan2, as well as Ravi Ivaturi, Sunil, you yourself and San have had so many good comments.

    A virulent ideology like Islam has to be REPLACED by something that appeals at a socio-cultural level at the same time doesnt have the same fudamental problems. For 70% Muslims that surely happens to be Hinduism.

    The end

  180. >> “on ocassion Hinduism has used temporarily modified aggressive ideas to stave of similar ones. (a almost Smriti-like approach)”

    AND

    “we have to modify ourselves (a similar time bound Smriti approach) in our responses. Something that is not fundamental to our basics by a temporary move to counter Islam.”

    Khujur Mian, whatever you are smoking, I WANT a big stash of it! Like, now! 🙂

    The ‘temporarily modified aggressive ideas’ that you claim were not written in the face of any invasion or civil war. They were not written as a direct response of the Yavanas or the Sakas or someone else; they were conjured up by representatives of certain groups who sensed the changes in society and the subsequent threat to the “traditional” social order. These Dharmashastras were surely no Axial Age type flowering of ideas but a base attempt to retain their power and prevent what they saw was the erosion of “traditionalism”. Evan Vedantic thought systems didn’t arise of mortal threat to mainstream Hinduism…. by the time Shankaracharya came to the scene Buddhism had mauled itself and efforts were already underway to mop them up. (It was Shankaracharya’s efforts that steered the Hindu comeback away from even more ritualism to rigorous and more enlightened philosophies.)
    You make it sound like there was some big struggle for the soul of the country and these specific Smritis were used as some “temporary” measures to plug the dike (yeah, right!).

    Forget your very obvious ignorance of Indian History and development of Hindu thought for a sec; let me repeat the question I asked in that earlier post. When the religious literature of those times (and even down to 20th century) did not treat the Muslims like a “Clash of Civilizations” nor did the Gurus punch out half a dozen new texts to deal with the Mlecchas? Or what, Knickerwaalahs 700 years later attained Bodhi and “realized” that new books have to be written to deal with the threat? Let’s take Sage Ramdas who inspired Shivaji, did he write any text where Islam is directly analyzed, attacked as a faith and socio-political system? Did Vidyaranya’s works have something on these lines? For that matter, is there ANY medieval Hindu text which said the things present day Knickerwaalahs holler at the top of their voices? Everytime I (or someone else) ask these questions, the Knickerwaalahs smile sagely and drone on about Shivaji’s campaign against the cowardly Shaista Khan.
    The ONLY major pan-Indian inclusive, Hindu movement was the 2nd Bhakti Movement… now did THEY say anything against Islam and Muslims?
    To the best of my knowledge the contemporaries of the islamic invasions did not treat Islam like the Flood from Halo. It’s the current crop of bitter, parochial, politically motivated knickerwaalahs that put words in their mouths.

    “Now is the time for Hinduism to develop a temporary Smriti-like counter to the threat of Islam”.
    Hah! Till yesterday it was all “Hinduism was always lily-white pure. We offer true secularism, you see it comes with the package. If we come to absolute power we will let them be as long as they tattoo Golwarkerji’s Lotus-Face on their foreheads.”. Now it’s come down to “temporary tough measures against Islam that we poor good folk are FORCED to use”…. and “not just militaristic but also socio-economic efforts” in this regard. (Thank God for small favors!) But we have the Joker-in-the-pack at the very end: “Islam has to be REPLACED by something that always grants all twue freedoms yadda yadda.” What did I say about the Camel in the tent?

    Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwww! Now I ain’t worried about the “implementation and differences in implementation rigmarole” or the efforts of the “Bandhus and Mitras” or minutiae of the “Tarka-Vitarka” and “deep inquiries in the esoteric, like Madhavacharya”; the modern day philosophers has it all figured out! 😛

  181. @ Pakele:

    I do not fear martyrdom. 😛 From each drop of my blood ten thousand new Ghazis and Pseudoseculars and Dharambrashts shall arise!
    (In my best Bob Christo baritone) MAIN HINDOOSTAN KI TUBAHI KAROONGAAAAAAAAAAAAAA! 😀

  182. Dear Wanderer
    Previously, I had given you quotes on similar discussions, but it seems you simply cant get over your habit of fleeting in and out of historical analyses, in a meaningless manner.

    Let me give you some examples, that will quiten your cackle for awhile

    1. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, a doyen of Bhakti movement in Bengal, brought new interpretation of Bhakti Yoga to the converted population of Bengal and re-introduced the Muslims back to Vaishnava Dharma.

    2. Gatha of Jhule Lal (Varun Deva) Hindu iconographic dynamism at work in a 9th century Sindh smarting Islamic Arab aggression, successfully neutralizing newly converted Sindhi Sumro’s antipathy towards the non-coverted Hindus.

    3. The devotional Kashmiri Hindu Shaiva Bhaktin, Lal Ded or Lalleshwari, bringing a new interpretation of Shiva devotion, causing a considerable dent in the converted Muslim aggression towards Hindus.

    4. Ramanujacharya, the great 11t century philospher and Vishistha Advaitya (qualified non-dualism), is often argued by many as a Vedantic interpretative response to violent Islamic exlusivism.
    The emphasis of the Vishistha Advaitins on Prasthana Traya i.e. the Upani?ads, Bhagavad G?t?, and Brahma S?tras are to be interpreted in way that shows this unity in diversity within the Hindu system, for any other way would violate their consistency.

    Lets also not forget the Sikh movement , the great Vedantic treatise of Satyartha Prakash and other Hindu approach to deal Islam a effective counterpunch even during the last few centuries. We must also not discount the efectivenes of each of these in securing a Hindu majority India inspite of 800 years of Islamic rule, something that is unprecendented.

    There re many more examples I can give..but these should be enoug to covey the point.

    Today’s world in a more connected and knowledge-centric than ever before and thankfully we are the masters of our own destiny after a long time.
    Now is the time.

  183. @ rishi:

    secularism has held india back apparently but my oh my.. we’re masters of our own destiny now. confused mr. khujur. confused.

    you spoke about wiping islam out? how about a better solution?

    under the guise of liberty and human rights..we undermine the authority of the mullahs.. we spent the same resources on cooking up a new type of islam and supporting it.. nothing fancy.. just that a muslim can follow those parts of the koran he wants to follow and ignores the others…sort of like the jews and christains do in the West for their bloody bibles and torturous torahs.

    so we hoodwink the muslims into believing they’re muslim but they’re not really. that way they won’t be pissed off and start a civil war ok? and neither will the United Nations screw us to kingdom come.

    They did it turkey. we did it here in india to hindus. Europe has done to christains.

    i think my plan is more realistic than yours.

  184. WTF:
    your plan is leading India into a Islamic deathtrap…
    alright it will be a richer India that will fall into the trap.

    remember every time India fell, it was more prosperous and civilized that the invaders into whose hands it fell.
    So get out of this chimera that because we r economically better off, we wont be overwhelmed.

  185. Nice to see the gamut of secularism, true, pseudo and false, all come out to display wares. Now to weigh the points for their merits.

    WANDERER : Indian Secularism is not negating religion, but simply means that the state should not show leanings towards any particular faith nor base any facet of the system on tenets of a single (majority) religion. This principle is extended to say “minority faiths shall be allowed to maintain their distinct identity, traditions and beliefs in the face of the overwhelmingly majority faith”.

    Hmmm. Interesting definitions of secularism. Where did you get them from? Especially, where did you get the point about the ‘majority’ & ‘extended principle’? My understanding is that the Indian constitution does not provide any definition of secularism. The Janata Party government (of Morarji Desai) tried to define it as “equal respect for all religions” via the Constitution (45th Amendment) Bill, but the Congress (surprise, surprise) did not endorse it.

    With the lack of any formal statement of meaning, the aam-aadmi definition on the streets of India is “equal respect for all religions”. This is good enough for me.

    Your ‘definition’ of distinct identity, tradition and belief of minority religions, would necessarily call for the state leaning towards the minority faith even when it is in the wrong and exploiting the majority faith. This is the present problem of secularism as practised in India, by ‘definition’ it is divisive, preferential and unjust. It should be altered to ‘equal respect for all religions’

    WANDERER : “we have the right-wingers claiming that this feature of the Indian Constitution is somehow destroying down their own faith! And what do present as evidence; Haj Subsidy and UCC! While it’s true that there have been instances of cynical selective-use of the principle by political entities, sometimes with terrible results, the principle as such is not regressive”!

    Two points here.

    POINT 1 : It is not secularism that is the prime cause of destroying India. The prime cause is the overpopulating hordes of Mms, who are eating away India from within. We visit Mm villages to find each family having 6 or 7 children. We visit Mm mufusils to see them sprawling relentlessly. And somehow we are all expected to believe that their population has been ticking away at 12-15% for the last 40 years? Even diehard communists and secularists are waking up to the menace and altering their views.

    Secularism as practised in India merely strengthens the true enemy by crying down legitimate concerns of non-Mm faiths. Thus it is a derivative danger, but a menacing one at that.

    POINT 2 : You may consider the following points ‘minor’ in the shameless way falSEcularists hoodwink genuine citizens of India :

    1. Special status of J&K only because it is majority M (wretched fate of Kashmiri pundits is hilarious)

    2. Enormous sums spent on Haj subsidies in a poverty-ridden nation

    3. The govt virtually leaving mosques to mullahs, yet meting step-fatherly treatment for Hs, overseeing their trusts through admin officers who do not even need to be Hu!! Drive along NH-8 or NH-2, you will see crumbling temples juxtaposed aginst newly renovated / built vast mosques. The Hu contention of diverting Hu funds to waqf boards doesn’t appear as untrue then as it once did.

    4. Hand vast subsidies to minority educational institutions (when many engage in outright sedition, like the AMU), while depriving them to H educational trusts. Even the Ramkrishna Mission classified itself as a non Hindu institution to escape this bizarre provision.

    All of these may appear minor, trivial or even comical to you. But the practise of allowing Mms to marry 4 wives to merrily engage in demographic warfare, is a strategic blunder of gargantuam proportions that will cost us dearly in times not too far off.

    This is the real danger of secularism as practised in India.
    Secularism, pluralism, multi-culturalism are all completely futile in the face of the relentless juggernaut that is Im. Let us look at how Im treats secularism in S.Asia itself :

    PAKISTAN : In his speech to the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan (11 Aug ’47), Jinnah declared “You are free; you are free to go to your temples, you are free to go to your mosques or to any other place of worship in this State of Pakistan. You may belong to any religion or caste or creed—that has nothing to do with the business of the State…”This marked the beginning of secularism in Pakistan. Tragically, it also marked its end. Just after Jinnah copped it, the Constituent Assembly of Pakistan passed the “Objectives Resolution” that claimed “all sovereignty belonged to Allah”, and honouring I as the raison d’etre of Pakistan. By 1973, I was openly declared as a state religion.

    Are you aware that when Asma Jehangir tried to organise a co-ed marathon in Pakistan, she was beaten and stripped? Of course, you will not be able to tell this from the sanitised version presented by Presstipak
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/4566879.stm

    WANDERER : The Taqleef of the Knickerwaalahs towards Indian Secularism is simply due to the fact that Independence and Partition did not automatically lead to elimination of the “polluting mlecchas” from the Holy Soil. Instead, they saw the thriving of minority committees who refused to be “subsumed” by Mainstream Modern Hinduism, despite the best efforts of the Hindu Right.

    What the Pantie-walees (secular PANTHEEs) don’t wish to highlight is that the Hindus never wanted to expunge Ms. On the other hand, Mms had clearly outlined that ‘they’ found it impossible to co-exist with Hs, and brutally wrested a nation in order to live separately.

    Further, as Sachar seems to think that Ms are festering at the very bottom of the social and economic pile, I cannot understand why Wanderer deems these committees as ‘thriving’. In another discussion I would not be surprised if Wanderer falls back to Sachar to prove how minorities are not progressing, exploited as they are by the fierce poite-wielding pundits.

    The frustration of the knickerwallahs is that the pantie-walees do not have a consistent position, except for hatred of Hs and idle name calling when their arguments go shhhplat.

    WANDERER : “The Knickerwaalahs from Singhal to our online heroes HHBB/Khujur/Hujurs perhaps feel (after sixty years of failure, social friction and intolerance towards those that do not confirm) that the only way to “make things better” (for themselves) is by giving the STATE itself an outright Hindu tinge. Once you do away with the “Secularism = Basic principle of the Constitution” thingie you can go ahead with other insidious programs and unleash the “enforcers” and the pit-bulls”.

    Ahh. So the 60 years of economic and social failure of ‘secular India’ is the fault of Hus? Yet the fantastic progress of Gujarat, built solidly on a Hu platform and card, has nothing to do with Hm?

    Pantie-walee hypocrisy at its best.

    I for one am not saying that we need to give the state a distinct Hu ‘tinge’ (whatever that may be). As mentioned consistently before, I call for all faiths to be treated equally, and violent belief systems to be defanged so that the others may progress in peace. If this is secularism, I am all for it. If this is not secularism, then what is secularism? The sham variety practised in India, far from failing to achieve peace and equality, exacerbates social differences and unjustly confers advantages to fanatic minority faiths. Thus my disapproval of falSEcularism.

    And the part about ‘secularism’ being the only redoubt between a frenzied Hu mob and the hallowed glow of glorious democracy? I thought the pantie-brigade were saying most of the Hus of India are so steeped in goodness and peace that they would not cry boo to a goose. So even if this term is removed from the Constitution, and the ‘unleashed Iayalars of Hm’ try goading the overwhelming Hu majority to fall upon the peace-loving model Mm citizens, it’ll be a damp squib. So what’s the hue and cry about?

    The way things are unfolding at ground level, the choice of keeping secularism or not in the Indian constitution is academic. My point is more to do with the shameful hypocrisy demonstrated by the government. It is their duty either to implement secularism properly & fairly, or to aim to replace it with better mechanisms.

    Which part of this does the pantie-walee (secular PANTHEE) brigade, from the John Dayals to the online ‘villains’ ? Wanderer / Pakele find wrong?

    WANDERER : “And BTW, I seen HHBB so passionately say non-conforming streams were always welcome in Ancient/Medieval Bharat. Therefore, Hinduism offers Twue Bluwe Secularism as against Plain Vanilla “FalSECularism” of today.”

    Where did I say non-conforming streams were ALWAYs welcome in ancient and MEDIEVAL BHARAT? What I said was, juxtaposed against the frenzied brutality of other nation states and exclusivist belief systems throughout the ages, which would freely annihilate their foes, the Indian approach was far more liberal. And this is a strength of indogenic faiths under the aegis of Hm.

    WANDERER : “So, the economic & social system, the demographics, the polity, the cultural milieu and the very Hindu FAITH(S) of today were the same back then? Was there a constitution in those polities of old, tied with Hindu scriptures…. constitutions that called for protection of the Heterodox and the outsiders”?

    What is your point here? Are you expecting 5,000 years of human progress to be achieved in primitive times with a click of fingers? That is not possible precisely because the science was not there. For e.g. it was the Industrial revolution that could usher in emancipation of slaves 200 years ago. Before that, in spite of the wave of liberalism sweeping British (Locke, Burke) and American (Paine) thought, the painful regimes of caste discrimination and infinitely more cruel slavery ran riot.

    The Hu mindset is built on a monistic or pantheistic principle, as opposed to the extreme, stark and paranoia inducing mutually exclusive polarities of mono-theistic faiths, like good and evil, heaven and hell, God and Satan. Thus, all things considered, the Hu is inherently more secular than the fanatic mullah or cardinal.

    WANDERER : “Hey, whenever foreigners (Greeks, Persians, CARs) came and defeated the local ruler they always were included as “Fallen Khsatriyas” and thus “approved” by the Priestly class (now headless chickens due to the fall of the sword arm). No place for nonconformists! You were either IN or OUT and “must havf all ze paperz at all ze times”. Certain Smritis and Shastras are MOST unkind to those that did not conform, the mongrel-folk consigned outside the order….. and those groups that rose up the ladder (Kayasthas, Viswakarmas, Malayala Shudras i.e. Nairs and even Veerasaivas) were roundly derided”.

    Hmmmm. Childish rant. You need to know your history.

    Greeks : Apart from a few border successes, often with the help of local vassalages, Alexander did not manage to make any substantial gains in India. In fact it was the Indians who defeated the Greeks when Selukos was forced to vacate Afghanistan. The Bactrians occupied Afghanistan later on, but many of them became voluntarily Hinduised or Indianised (Heliodorus column).

    Persian : When did the Persians defeat India? Cyrus managed to gain a foothold in Gandhara, and Gandhara alone, but this was lost by the time of Xerxes. Do inform me why you say this?
    Further, your contention that foreign victors were meekly incorporated within the Hu fold only after they were victorious is incorrect.

    1. Aggressors were often defeated soundly, only to be released with perfect Indian courtesy and magnanimity (Gupta defeat of the Hunas, Gupta thrashing of the Shakas, Harsha’s defeat of the Hunas, Baladitya’s defeat of the Hunas, Yashodharman’s defeat of the Hunas). In all these cases, the belligerents converted of their free will, usually a long time after their repeated defeats. Hm did not need to incorporate them, but did so out of magnanimity.

    2. Where invaders converted to Hm / Buddhism when they were victorious (Kushans), you will have to admit that they must have held the faiths of the ‘defeated foes’ in such high esteem that they deemed it worthy of adoption in spite of defeating it’s adherents.

    WANDERER : “And BTW, what exactly is this funda of “political Hinduism as a basis for the state”? What is Hinduism? Is this whole funda “Liberal” or is it “Optimal”? And who decides that? Forget the parochial Dharma Shastras, has the basic source Vedantic Shruti or even the major Upanishads/Brahmanas/Aranyakas been reworked? I mean in fundamental way and not extension movements such as Advaita etc? How does or how CAN one gauge stagnation in the face of racing modernity? Does review (like that of Shankaracharya etc) count? So, whose review is ultimately acceptable? Is it still open for review/amendment etc?”

    It is very simple to define “Political Hm”. We have just seen it in action in the Gujarat elections. Any political decision taken to defend or promote the progress of the Hu community.

    Hm ‘was’ successful in providing political frameworks capable of sustaining prosperous states in the past. Let us take the Guptas. The Rajah ruled as an enlightened despot, yajnas were performed, temple building was encouraged, activities to promote human welfare (digging lakes, land grants to villages, liberal tax and criminal laws) were practised, knowledge was promoted through ashramas and universities, trade was encouraged, warfare was engaged in, but defeated foes were treated with generosity. As such, your claim that Hm is incapable of sustaining a state is incorrect.

    The issue is, are those same Hu principles capable of sustaining a modern state? Of course not. Gigantic strides have been made in polity, science and social development since. However, many of the interests, attitudes and outlooks that made such societies highly successful in the past can and should be replicated. For e.g., the Hu approach to respecting the eco-system, tolerance of other faiths, constant development of metaphysics, yoga, noble code of warfare, will all help to build a model citizen and state. The tragic and anachronistic aspects (caste discrimination, excessive ritualism) can be dispensed with.

    The result of this is evident in the modern efficient, effective and admired Hu citizen in any state they inhabit. Praise is showered upon the Hu citizen in USA, Canada, Britain, France, Italy, Singapore .. even Germany. Inhabitants of these same states have nothing but scorn for Mms.

    Why is this?

    Further, Wanderer is confusing a state built on Hu principles with one built on Mm ones. The latter is a way of life, foisting itself on all aspects of existence, religious and secular, whether one wants it or not. It blares the sound of the muezzin in to ones ears, whether you like it or not. It calls for the constant spreading of Im while undermining (or exterminating as the case may be) the faiths of others. A state built on Hu principles will not force the Vedas down one’s throat first thing in the morning, it will only ensure the Vedas are not 25/8 insulted. It will not create a constitution crafted from Advaitic shlokas, it will ensure that the constitution will give the right to people to practise Advaita if they can.

    That is the basis of a Hu state. It is everything a Mm state is not. And the way secularism is being practised in India, we are well on the way to becoming a Mm one.

    WANDERER : “those old polities actually didn’t follow the “Hindu scriptures as the basis of the state” to the letter… it was pretty much a matter of “running interests”. At least it WAS for a long time.

    You see, it was when the Land Grant systems finally solidified into the the monster of Indian feudalism and gave rise to certain High Caste groups that the social system fossilized, circa 700-900 AD. If it were so from the START we would never have had the good Economic-Social run we had from 200 BC-750 AD. There probably weren’t any Cathar Holocausts of these schools (at least no records exists of such actions), for simply non-religious reasons I mentioned above, but Indian Buddhist sects were meted out this treatment…. even Jain communities had to live like “In Presence of Mine Enemies”. Even within the major stream localized (tied to the land) Totems and Deities (Pratishtas) were often carried away with pretty much the same zeal as the Turk”.

    This is a joke, the pantie-walee brigade gone berserk. The golden age of Hm is considered to be 200–500 AD, though Hu achievements began well earlier, and continued for far longer (Pratiharas, Chalukyas, Rashtrakutas Cholas). Giant strides in social, intellectual, spiritual, economic and commercial (both national and international) spheres were made, all under the benign aegis of Hu rule. And how does the pantie-brigade describe this? It was not for Hm at all, it was for ‘running interests’!! Yet the degeneration of India can certainly and readily be attributed to Hm!!! Funny. And sad.

    The trace instances of Hu rivalry with Buddhism / Jainism is blown out of all proportions, instances evidently confabulated in rhetorical language (Buddhists accepting intellectual defeat to Shankaracharya described as 10,000 Buddhists drowned themselves after losing in debate to Adi Shankara). Yet the continuous rapproachment between the faiths (Ajanta, Ellora, Khajuraho et all proudly displaying Hu / Buddhist & Jain architecture), the patronage of Buddhism under the Guptas (Nalanda university), the overall inter-religious peace that Fa-Xian, Huan Xang, Yi Jing describe, all point to a society in which in spite of traces of inter-communal disturbances (Sashanka & the Bodhgaya), overall peace prevails.

    And how does the pantie-brigade (secular PANTHEES) contrast this with the horrific spiritual and religious underdevelopment witnessed in the Christian Albigensian holocaust 600 years later, or even Afghanistan, 1,400 years later? There ‘probably’ weren’t any!!! Historical distortions that would make DN Jha drool with envy.

    And Pratishtas carried away equated with Turkish zeal? Most cases of the former are unsubstantiated, most cases of the latter meticulously recorded. The former was not a matter of policy, the latter one of the foremost religious prescriptions. But the clinching argument is that in the former, Pratisthas were lovingly placed in shrines and worshipped. In the latter they were smashed, pulverised and repulsively insulted.

    To the pantie-walee there is no distinction. To every one else under the sun, there is.

    WANDERER : I mean, WTH? The fantastic way in which the lemon of “Clash of Civilizations” is sold in India, with propagandu of “Life and Death struggle for 1300 years” and “Brave, misunderstood, twuely chivalrous, lily-white Hindu standing up against the drooling Rapist Muslim”…. wow. Just wow. And any one who picks holes in the Knickerwaalah’s stitching is a Dhimmi or Macaulayite or Commie or Self Hating Hindu or HISI or other such epithets. Hindu-Muslim interaction down the years sure wasn’t all roses, but it was not a saffron and green Hindu-Muslim thing either. The dynamics, the inter-relation are too complex and too layered to be dismissed by some Shaakha Historian waving around a stanza from Chand Bardai. One doesn’t need to be a rocket scientist to figure out why (and how) these right-wingers are painting this false picture.

    Relax. You do not have to worry about adequately describing all the subtle nuances and cadences of the Hu-Mm relationship here. History is never perfectly black and spotlessly white. The Pandavas displayed many faults, the Kauravas many virtues.

    In WWII (Wrily : how many times will I have to repeat this point? Until it sinks in I suppose), the Axis acquired many merits (relatively benign treatment of Baltic nations, magnanimously allowing defeated British foes to flee Dunkirk, refraining from carpet bombing in the West until the British initiated it, treatment of captured foes in Crete and North Africa). The Allies betrayed a host of vices (Churchill murdered 5 million Indians, virulent anti-Semitism of Britain preventing Jews to flee to Palestine, effectively trapping them in Hitler’s grasp, carpet & atom bombing near-defeated foes .. Dresden, Hamburg & Japan … in Dresden, in one night alone (13/14 Feb, 1945) 30,000 civilians were bombed to death. Is this civilised? And I haven’t even brought in the Russians !!!

    Yet in spite of all these contradictions, the Allied cause was ‘overwhelmingly’ the noble one, while the Axis foundation was undiluted evil.

    The fanatic hatred by Ms of Hs is not an invented allegation. The life & death struggle with Hs (pagans) has its basis in the Koran & hadiths. The ad nauseum massacre of Hus for 1,300 years is not a product of fertile imagination, it is based on scrupulous and painstaking recording by Mm historians themselves. That this frenzied hatred continues unabated today is proved by what has happened to India from the 1940s, and what we can see is going to happen.

    WANDERER : “Finally, when Secularism is taken away… whats going to replace that big hole in the constitution? WHO is going to decide what tenet from which book is applicable? Who decides what exactly is the Dharma here? Or if we are going to rework the whole “baseline” thing, who is going to write the new “constitution”? Again, on what basis?”

    I am surprised at this fanatic worship & reverential fear of the Constitution. The Constitution is intended to serve the people, yet you are suggesting it’s the other way round!! As if people should modify themselves rather than amend a flawed constitution. It was created once, it can be done again.

    The basis will be the overall progress and development of society, with protection from all aggression, internal and external. This is not Hm. But at the same time it has resonances of what Hu society stood for in the past (Dharma & Raksha …. temporal injustices like caste notwithstanding).

    My personal view is that the current Constitution should not be scrapped, the obvious and conspicuous flaws should be amended. A true version of Secularism should be upheld. Bereft of the fanaticism of Mm & those of Xtian missionaries arming NE terrorists to the teeth, true secularism may just be a possibility. However, given the spread of Mm fundamentalism like wildfire, not just in India, but over the globe, this is hardly likely to be a possibility. In such a scenario, the injustice of the falSEcularism practised in India becomes even more dangerous and glaringly unjust.

    WANDERER : So many questions which I am pretty sure even Arun Blowhard Shourie or other such Talking-Head luminaries would find difficult to answer.

    Yes, I can just picture Arun Shourie rushing to the computer to answer your trenchant, intelligent and logical criticism. You can dispense harbouring delusions of grandeur.

    W.T.F : “i dont think this is the place to question india’s caste based reservation system. as an aside i had mentioned the argument which highlights the absurdity of leaving converts out of reservation.there. my personal opinion is that affirmative action should only be on the basis of economic deprivation.”

    Yes. Let’s all go down this route then. The entire tens of millions of East Bengali Hs were not only ‘economically deprived’, their families were murdered to boot. Let’s give all of their families reservations in the IITs.

    Let the IIMs have no places but for Kashmiri pundits.
    What about the millions of Punjabees who survived slaughter at the hands of the Mms during Partition. Let all government posts be first handed to Punjabi Hs & Sikhs. Then anyone else can subscribe.

    After all, affirmative action is being touted to uplift communities for ills practised 1,000 years ago. No steps have been taken to see if these communities have managed to bridge the social gap since and deserve state patronage. “My name is Mondol, so I want a panthua”.

    If so, then the economic (even leaving the genocidal) crimes of 60 to 30 years ago surely deserve some consideration?

    WTF : “One of the most intelligent, progressive, successful and (overseas) admired group of Indians have rejected secularism as a crap concept” on the contrary this was a victory for the moderate faction in the BJP. i think you’re buying into hype if you think that Modi’s victory is about anything more than regional politics.”

    Oh I see. Modi, that effigy of hate who the secular brigade spares no pains in castigating from dawn to dusk and beyond, that Ravana of destruction, that Nero of evil, that sibling of Hitler ….. or should I say that “Maut ki Saudagar”, now suddenly becomes a moderate in the BJP.

    You guys, you’re too quick for me. Eeeeuun aye, eeeeuun gaye. Now you see them, now you don’t.

    WANDERER : “I see many right wing nutjobs are trying to show that Ancient / Medieval Hinduism was always “cutting-edge spirituality” and the great progress was snuffed out when those hated Turushias rolled down the Khyber. Well, how does it explain the fossilization of the once-fluid caste system….
    Compared to its times & contemporary faiths, Hm was”.

    Fossilized caste? This is the maximum denouncement of Hm you can achieve. A thousand years later than that, Europe was tearing itself apart in the 30 years war, fought primarily along religious lines. One third of the population of Europe perished. We have seen nearly 3 million Hs massacred in Bangladesh hardly 35 years ago. Hm had social flaws. Yet in spite of those, it had promoted continuous spiritual enquiry and development. The techniques of Raja yoga it promoted are only now being understood in terms of the strides in NDE & Astral travel research.

    Whether you accept Turushkas as causing untold damage to Hus or not is academic. Eye witnesses like Al-Biruni have described it so.

    WANDERER : “how does it explain the threatening those who “cross the seas” with ostracization….. how does it account for the systematic destruction (i.e., from inside. Were the external reasons alone responsible?) of India’s international trade and deep industrial base in the early medieval age….. why were Smritis like the Manusmriti seen as the correct interpretation of society and law; they were called the Dharma Shastras, right?”

    But were these ever forced upon people with the zeal and fervour of jehad, crusade or the stoning to death of adulteresses as in Leviticus? That is the point being made.
    Historical observations of Hu society in practice (Megasthenes, FaXian, Huan Xan, Ye Jing, Al Biruni, Nunez etc etc) show that this is not the case. While it may have been enjoined by ‘Brahmins’, there is no evidence to suggest it was ever forced on or accepted by Hu society at large.

    Do provide proof that India’s trade links were disrupted from within. As late as the 13th to 16th century, the Hoysalas and Viajayanagara kingdoms were engaged in extensive international trade as fully functioning Hu kingdoms. This is long after your alleged period of Hu corruption of 700-900 AD.

    Smritis like Mansmriti (Buhler believed that it was composed during the 2nd – 4th century [?], well within your glorious Indian period which did not subsribe to Hm !!) often contradicted other smritis. At best they had local application and support. At worst, they were ignored.

    Can you even imagine this in a Xtian or Mm society. The Xtians were merrily burning millions of Jews, Moriscoes, Protestants and other apostates 1,400 years later than Manu. The Ms continue their reign of terror as enjoined by the Holy Book even today. And that is the strength of a society built on Hu values.

    WANDERER : “Nobody … except for the poor poor Mahatma, butchered by the Right Wing rat b@stards, cared or made systematic and large-scale efforts in bringing the Pariahs back into the mainstream”.

    Hmmm. But Gandhi wasn’t assassinated for his love of pariahs. He was assassinated because he showered unconditional love of Moplahs who had massacred and raped thousands of Hs. He was assassinated because he calmly presided over a near one sided massacre by Mm mobs in Calcutta & Noakhali, only to be animated out of senility when Hus started fighting back.

    He was assassinated for proclaiming to weeping Hu & Sikh women fleeing the genocide of partition that the way to ‘overcome’ rape by rapacious Mm attackers was to visualise them as your brothers. He was assassinated because he refused to allow Ms to depart even though Hs had been thrown out and Pakistan had been created on a 2-nation theory (so Hs lost their lands and life, only to find those very same grinning Ms staying on to take the remaining portion of India).

    Finally, he was assassinated for his obdurate insistence to pay Pakistan crores of rupees even though they had attacked India, money Pakistan would only use to increase Hu misery and pain.

    Mahatma should have been assassinated for any one of those crimes. It was only extreme Hu tolerance that deferred the inevitable for so long. In Mm, he wouldn’t have survived beyond the high school.

    WANDERER : “I hail from a state that was termed as the “Madhouse of India” by Swami Vivekananda, due to the terrible social oppression in those days. It was not because of any Hindutva leader. It was due to secular, political and economic efforts… aided by sound legal principles, modern ideals and support of many High Caste people (who were promptly made “Dharmabrasht” en masse by the Brahmin Mahasabha)”.

    And Vivekananda is revered as the best of Hs in India & abroad, while most people have not even heard of the Brahmin Mahasabha. I for one.

    You have answered your question yourself. Hm contains the solutions to its problems within itself. If struggles assume glaring proportions, social changes within and without will force the solution. Reactionary elements in Hm are too weak to stand in the path of social progress.

    For example, the Brahmins of Kashmir in the 6th century had grown corrupt, began persecuting Buddhists and engaged in immoral practices. However, the ruler Gopaditya, a strong Hu himself, expelled a section of them, replacing them by importing Brahamnas from elsewhere. Their fame and prominence were so profound that when Huan Xang visited Kashmir, though he bemoaned the decline of Buddhism there, he pays glowing tribute to the Brahmanas by claiming “from remote times was distinguished for learning and their priests were all of high religious merit and conspicuous virtue, as well as marked talent and power of clear exposition of doctrine and though the priests of other nations were in their own way distinguished, yet they could not be compared.”

    This is unlike Mm, which is yet to see a reformation and unlikely to ever have one, or Xtianity, which needed a knee-deep blood conflict (30 years war) to make it come to its senses.

    WANDERER : “The rise of the Kayasthas etc and even the Heterodox/Atheistic/Extreme Sects did NOT stem from what was then “mainstream” Hinduism. It was a patrimonial-bureaucratic class which were composed of Vaishya/Shudra groups like Pushpal/Karnik/Chitragupt/Lehak which benefited from the Mauryan-Post Mauryan economic expansion and the relatively high fluidity of caste systems in Gupta age (due to a long spell of strong rule and prosperity).

    Kalhana’s Rajatarangini, Yajnavalka Smriti and other later smritis are extremely critical of these “usurpers without caste”. is In fact there were furious struggles and intrigue with Veerasiva founder assassinating his King (who persecuted them) and the kashmir King Vasugupta’s assassination for empowering the Kayasthas”

    As I said before, the rise of heterodox faiths and castes, the “dynamism” of Hinduism, was DESPITE the parochial, narrow minded gasbags who thought THEY alone had the power to interpret the scriptures and dictate the polity of the state.

    Please tell me where you got your information on Kayasthas from? The traditional view is that Kayasthas were accorded a dual Brahmin / Kshatriya lineage, & in the rest of India, they have integrated very successfully (Ghosh, Mathurs, Srivastavs, Saxenas etc).

    There was a survey done by the Anthropological Society of India in British India (I think BS Guha did it) which suggested that the scribes in Mauryan India were Kayasthas, but this was a hypothesis.

    In Kashmir, and Kashmir alone, the Kayastha issue was different. First of all, you have got your facts wrong. Vasugupta was the founder of Kashmir Saivism, he was not a king. The king assassinated was one Jayapira (764-795 A.D) in whose reign Vasugupta thrived. ……. [I am grinning now. Is this a result of some bad googling. Is this what all the hollow pomposity becomes reduced to, bad googling? 🙂 ]

    Anyway, Jayapira’s death is attributed to the Brahmanas (never proved) as he was highly partial to the Kayastha class, who are described as wealthy financiers, kings and advisors, and in conflict with the Brahmins.

    But the real fanatic nature of the Kashmir Kayasthas becomes evident during the reign of Shankarvarman, the son of a Vaishnava, who, through Kayastha help, not only proceeded to subjugate Brahmins (temples and temple wealth appropriated, Brahmin cities invaded), he also tyrannised agriculturalist (introducing Begar, or forced labour) as well as tax industries to the hilt. The Kayasthas merrily supported him in return for his patronage. On his death, Kashmir was thrown in to total chaos, confusion and a long period of interregnum. This does not sound like a paragon of virtue, and Kalhan was correct to criticise him.

    “The new philosophies and new schools and new readings are well and good as long as it stays out of the business of running the state. History shows that once a section of people claim exclusive privileges (social/economical/politica) solely due to their birth and pedigree the nation goes to sh1t.

    Essentially, letting hoary religious traditions/undefinable social meme to dictate how a nation is run and define National Polity INVARIABLY ends in tragedy. The greatest leap in Theory of Governance was separation of Church and the State…. in at least a high degree”

    But this is exactly what Hs are saying. We are asking for a state that grants equal privileges for its adherents. It is precisely because the practised version of falSEcularism is so virulently anti-Hu and so flaccid in the face if a menacingly resurgent raging sea of Im, that we are bound to ask for bolstering the impotent system with some Hu terms and mettle.

    “Now these Jokers in Knickers want to reverse it and take us all back to Raktabija Raj. I dunno about you all but I don’t want to see India turn into a Hindu version of Pakistan… no matter the sweet claims of “Naaaah, this will not happen in OUR Hinduism. Trust us.”.

    Well, this is not what the Hu right want. This is how the jokers in the pantie-brigade scaremonger and browbeat naive Indians and thus ensure the ever rising tide of Im is sustained. They are fifth columnists for Mm terrorism and supporters of its genocide. Whether they realise it or not.

    WANDERER : “the rise of certain castes/esoteric doctrines? These were “outsiders”, barring Buddhism & Jainism, were quite localized (centred around a major figure/clan/temple), they were a result of rare quirks of socio-economic (or even political) upheaval. These groups took a BIG break or a brand new interpretation of existing, “mainstream” Hinduism of those times and survived/thrived DESPITE the odds stacked against them. Barring a few Kapalikas and Kalamukhas in Varanasi, how many of the extreme/non-conformist groups are around today? What is the attitude of Political Hinduism, an “organised religion” in itself, towards such fringe groups?”

    Yes, but what do you mean ‘though the odds were stacked against them”. Were they persecuted by mainstream Hs? Were they universally vilified? Were they even rendered outcastes? Elaborate your claims of persecution.

    In terms of non-conformist Hs, Lingayats are still a powerful community. And communities like the Kapalikas and Kalamukhas did not acquire, and neither wished to acquire, any mass appeal. Their teachings and following was highly restricted. Once their ‘fad’ had passed, they faded away.

    WANDERER : “Now every knickerwaalah claims Buddhism was peacefully accepted into the mainstream; But when they included Buddha into the Pantheon, did they append the main teachings like Eight-Fold Path or the inclusive and robust Sangha Order or the culture of Buddhist traditions of mass-education / historiography / communal prayer / early egalitarianism etc?

    All that was done was appropriating the now semi-deified Sakyamuni Buddha for themselves. Now tell me, does this look like Acceptance (or even assimilation) or is it simply “swallowing up” as in Vatapi Jeerno-Bhava.”

    I don’t know what more do the pantie-walees want? Hs deify Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu. They cherish(ed) and encourage(d) their universities (Nalanda). Their deities were respected and worshipped alongside Hu icons. Exquisite works of Buddhist architecture were created side by side with Hu structures.

    Why would Hs need to copy the 8 Fold Path when something nearly 100% similar exists in Hm (Yama & Niyama observances of Raja Yoga). Why is a Sangha order required when Hm does not forcibly proselytise? Why would the historiography of the Buddhists be copied when something similar is attempted in the Itihaasa-Puranas?

    At the end of the day, let us relate it to practical terms. Im has obliterated Buddhism from its nations. From Persia, Afghanistan, Uzbegistan and Tadjikistan. Bangladesh is carrying on this hoary tradition with its Chakmas. China treats Tibet with the steely love only China is capable of. The near very last vestiges of Buddhism in the Mm world, the Bamiyan Buddhas, are atomised in front of our eyes. Compared to these observations of the 20th century, the Hu treatment of Buddhism for 2,000 years appears Christ-like.

    WANDERER : “Oh yes, bad bad baaaaaaaad Islam. Always the same. Monstrous. Monolithic. Easily summarized into a couple of sentences. even while killing Hindus all through D.A Day, Jinnah was promising a land where minorities were free and content as long as they accept that “Pakistan ka matlab Kya, La Illaha Il Allah”. Sounds very familiar to the sales pitch one hears from the saffronistas, right?”

    Hai kopaal. This is what we’re trying to save you from, you flower (phool), not plunge the country in. This is coming to our country, this has been invariably unleashed on our country for over 1,000 years. Spurred on by the inherent weaknesses in our nation, viz. jealousy, smug complacency, divisiveness, inertia, and people like you.

    WANDERER : “ knickerwaalahs and their deluded groupies better remember what happens ultimately to ALL those who want to define nationhood, identity and polity via religious inclination or religious literature from eons ago”

    Yes. The pantie-walee is correct. This is what exactly happens :

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7173599.stm

    As it is, our battle is already lost. The utopia that WTF dreams of will not be realised in 1,000 years. (WTF, you quoted from Fukayama’s “The end of history & the last man”. Surely you know that even he accepts his earlier theories may need modification in “Our Post Human future”? At least he allows for military intervention in the form of realistic Wilsonianism. What options will you allow the Hs?)

  186. Last comment by Anonymous is mine

    SHAAAN : Hahahahahaha

    Whoops. Shaan’s escsped from the institution again. Someone puh-leez inform the warden !!

  187. Wanderer,

    I’ve answered your drivel on Monday morning, but the comment’s stuck in transit, so I’ve asked Arnabda to release.

    Sometimes long comments from India get stuck.

    You be patient now !!

  188. Since some well-read people have alluded to Orissa, let me clarify the details of the recent violence about my home state.

    In Orissa, Christian missionaries hatched a violent plot to ambush and kill the 83-year old Hindu monk Swami Laxmananda Saraswati who was on his way to a Yajna in Brahmanigaon village on Christmas eve.

    On 24 December 2007, a 500-strong Christian mob armed with daggers, axes and machetes had waited patiently for Swamiji after they had first felled huge roadside trees and used them up as road-blocks/barriers on the road near Kashingbadi village (in Phulbani district). When the Jeep carrying Swamiji approached the village, the Christian missionaries ordered two trucks to drive up and block the road to the rear of Swamiji’s Jeep so that he was now effectively trapped between the trucks and the felled trees.

    As his Jeep stopped, the 500-strong mob of Christian converts violently attacked Swami Laxmananda Saraswati with sharp weapons and tried to kill him. Fortunately, with the help of his injured bodyguard Kishore Chandra Pradhan and wounded driver Naresh Kanhar who barely managed to steer the Jeep away between the barriers, Swamiji escaped the murderous attack but was severely injured and was taken to nearby hospital where he has been admitted to an Intensive Care Unit. The driver and bodyguard were also admitted in critical condition to the hospital. The car was severely damaged in the attack.

    Not content with the murderous attack on Swamiji, that marauding band of Christian thugs had then proceeded to the village Hindu temple and burnt it down. A Hindu Vanavasi youth was hacked to death by Christians in a separate incident in the same district.

    These terror attacks triggered a domino effect among the Hindus, especially our Vanavasi brothers, and some retaliated by burning some thatched-roof churches. In more retaliatory attacks by Christians, Hindu homes and temples were also burnt down.

    Local Hindu organisations also report that the Christian missionaries had already converted the Paana Dalit community (which accounted for 20 percent of the population in Kandhamal distict) by offering jobs, houses, school admissions and financial inducements and that they were now using the Paana Christians to convert the Kandha (Hindu Vanavasi) community who now constitute 80 percent of the population in Kandhamal.

    The tension in Kandhmal heightened after the Centre announced reservation for the Dalit Christians from the share meant to uplift poorer Hindu Dalits and Vanvasis. In Orissa, the Paana converts had received ample financial help from the missionaries and were economically well-off in comparison to the Hindu Vanvasis who did not convert; but ironically Paana Christians were now declared as being eligible for “Scheduled Tribe” reservations as well. This travesty angered the Hindu Vanavasi community even further and the Kui Samaj had announced a state-wide bandth to protest this injustice.

    Kabiser Mallick, who belongs to the economically poor Kandha Vanavasi community, said, “We feel neglected here because even though Kandha Vanvasis are the numerical majority, our political representatives are all Paana Christians. Paanas are paid convert to Christianity and are well off. Then why should they receive reservations meant for Scheduled Tribes?”, he wondered.

    This grievance is illustrated by the Christmas-eve attack on Swami Laxmananda Saraswati being planned, paid for and executed by Christian missionary and “World Vision” NGO’s chief, Radhakanta Nayak, who is also the Congress (I) Member of Parliament from the area.

    The 83-year old Swamiji has been a figurehead of the Orissa Hindu revival and social reform struggle for nearly 40 years now. He has been the nemesis of the devious evangelistic conversion activity in Orissa since May 1970 when a Christian mob had set on fire the sacred icon (Murti) of Lord Birupakhya at the famous Shiva temple in the small tribal village of Chakapad in the Kandhamal district.

    In 1969-70, he arrived at Phulbani district headquarters of Kandhamal district. The Church had chalked out a dangerous plan to finish the Hindus in those areas. The plan “Mission Christ Sthan” was intended to create one separate territory for the Christians. The missionaries were keen to make their programme successful in Koraput, Gajpati, Phulbani, Kalahandi, Bolangir, Bhanjanagar, Daspalla, Khanda-pada,
    Boudh, Sonapur, Athamallik and Angul districts. Huge funds from Christian countries were flowing into these regions for conversion activities.

    “When I heard about the plan of the pastors to create a “Christ Sthan”, I decided to visit those areas. Communication was not as good as it is today. I did not have any money even to travel. Hence, I begged alms in places like Khurda and Nayagarh and managed to collect 30 rupees. With this amount in hand, and taking the blessings of Lord Jagannath, I reached there,” he said.

    Swamiji reached Chakapad, a small tribal village, 30 kms from the Phulbani district headquarters. He established his ashram there in 1969 and dedicated himself to the service of mankind.

    Swamiji started his service and social reform work, making Chakapad his centre. To promote education, he established a school and a Sanskrit college at Chakapad in 1969. To save the Vanvasis from the clutches of missionaries, he started a unique plan. He inspired the locals to have a kirtan mandali in each village. He started delivering religious preaching among Vanvasis, which proved advantageous in curbing the missionary activities. Swamiji united the Vanvasis of Kandhamal and educated them to be conscious of the missionary activities and to develop their economic and social conditions. As a result, the missionaries had no way but to cancel their “Christ Sthan” project when they realized that they now have a strong Hindu challenge that stood firmly in their way of fully converting Kandhamal.

    The Swami, known for his untiring zeal to check conversion of tribals into Christians in the entire southern and western Orissa, has been running the Shankaracharya Sanskruta Kanya Ashram at Jalespata, 30km south of Baliguda in Kandhamal for more than three decades now.

    “The Christian missionaries want to convert Hindus to Christianity and convert India into a Christian land. We are opposed to that and that is the source of all disputes and fights,” said Swami Laxmanananda.

  189. Here is the statement by Mr. Ashok Sahu, IPS (Retd.), Former Inspector General of Police, Orissa ……

    Facts on ‘Clashes among Christian Missionaries and the Tribals in Kandhamal District of Orissa’:

    Reports of communal violence involving the converted Christians led by the Missionaries on one hand and the Tribals on the other, in Kandhamal District of Orissa by the media since 25 th December 2007 are vastly distorted and motivated which in public interest need be clarified much before the national image is tarnished before the general public and the international community.

    The whole series of incidents started from unprovoked and preplanned attack on Vedanta Keshari Swami Laxmanananda Saraswati who was visiting his disciples in Darsingbadi village in Kandhmal District on 24 th December. Swamiji, 82 years old has been working relentlessly in the District since 1967 to protect the local population where more than 75% are below the poverty line and are not literate. He has opened schools and hostels, hospitals and temples to protect mainly the tribals and the down-trodden from the clutches of Missionaries who are operating with massive fund from foreign countries and pumped into NGOs in disguised operations to convert the local tribals into Christianity.

    Chief of such NGOs is one ‘WORLD VISION’ patronized by one Mr. Radhakanta Nayak, a local of Darsingbadi village from ‘Pana’ community but later got converted to Christianity. He happens to be an employee of the State Government promoted to the IAS and retired, and now a Member in the Rajya Sabha. His henchmen were the assailants who attacked Swamiji on 24 th December.

    Meanwhile, the Kui tribals among the Kandhs in the District were agitating on the conspiracy by Mr. Nayak who is engineering for getting a Presidential notification under the provisions of the Constitution, to get his ‘Pana’ community, who are scheduled castes relisted as scheduled tribe along with the Kui on the ground that the former also speak the Kui dialect. Various reservation facilities to which scheduled tribes are entitled are not available to persons converted to Christianity. On hearing the assault news on Swamiji, the already agitated Kui community reacted and protested through out the district against the ‘Pana’ community converted to Christianity.

    Interestingly, the Maoist (Naxalites) activists in the district are also mostly from among the recent converts to Christianity. Among 47 Maoists arrested in connection with recent burning of villages inhabited by Hindus ( Brahmanigaon, Jhinjiriguda, Katingia, and Godapur) as a counter to attacks by tribals on the Churches, 20 guns have been recovered by the security forces from them. It is evident that the Maoists and the Church are hands in glove with each other to spread fratricidal killings and clashes among the tribals which is evident also from incidents in Karbi-Anglong and North Cachar Hills districts in Asaam. Conversions of poor tribal villagers are being conducted on gun point and by spreading terrorism.

    While in active government service Mr. Radhakanta Nayak IAS (Retd.) and Mr. John Nayak IPS (Retd.) both converted Christians were instruments of the Church to proselytize the poor and illiterate ‘Pana’ and tribal communities in Kandhamal district of Orissa.

    Under guise of NGOs thousands of dollars are pumped into the country for conversion of tribals in Jharkhand, Chhatisgarh, Madhya Pradesh, Orissa, Andhra Pradesh and the North-East. Taking advantage of the poverty and lack of education, thousands have been converted who are also being trained for separatist movements like NSCN in Nagaland and Maoist insurgency in the aforesaid states. This trend is more pronounced since 1970 which is evident from the census reports till 2001. In Kandhamal District alone the Christian population has increased from 6% in 1970 to 27% in 2001, despite an Act enacted by Orissa Legislature in 1967 to prevent conversion by allurement, coercion, bribery and cheating.

    Swamiji has been fighting a lone battle by making the tribal district his home for last 40 years, who has been targeted by the Church to finish him. Earlier to the recent attack, there were two other lethal attacks on Swamiji in 1971 and 1995. Since then the government has provided armed protection to Swamiji. Inspite of that, he was attacked by armed assailants on 24 December 2007 in which he and his driver and armed security personnel were seriously injured and hospitalized in Cuttack Medical College Hospital.

    Hence, the recent clashes manifest the various ramifications of the socio-economic, political and cultural tribal issues and the deep-rooted conspiracy by the Church to destabilize our society and our economy. Let the Nation awake and protect our tribal brethren and the national media stop distorting the facts.

  190. Dear HHBB,
    No praise would be too high for your impeccable “logic”, moral acrobatics and biased, unsound judgment. In your long comments at RTDM made you frequently made splash hits of effluvia, but the last response to my drivel sure made you no less than a Dharam Heeeeerrow. My frequent forays into Astral Travel and Near Death Experiences are NOTHING compared to the cachinations courtesy your brilliant injellecjualism. Just like mustard-seeds and peanuts stands out amongst the most watery dysentery-discharges, a number of uvaachas dazzled brighter than the rest. At casual glance, it seemed to glow like a Chinese Comfort-House Red Lantern, but upon closer examination it seemed to radiate like the late afternoon Antipodean summer sun, the kind of radiance that makes Daisy-Duke Knickerwaalahs’ public drills such an enthralling experience.
    Anyway, let’s see the (comparatively) less retarded points before going on to the truly cretinous; The ones that are so absurd, they aren’t even wrong.

    Greeks and Persians didn’t have dominions in India… except Gandhara? Perhaps now that Gandhara is in Pakistan, the Honor & Dignity of twue citizens (i.e. Copper Bottomed Hindus) are intact! How conveniently one “misses” the fact that the southern CAR and present day Pakistan was then as Indic as Magadha, a claim the knickerwaalahs use to justify their wet-dreams of Akhand Bharat from the Oxus to the Irrawati. Maybe you should google out Achaemenids and the Indo-Achaemenid, the Greeks, the Indo-Greeks, the Kushanas, the Indo-Scythian kingdoms, the Indo-Parthians and of course the Hunas. Maybe understand how long they ruled LARGE parts of India, for considerable periods of time. Hey, the first coins unearthed in India were the Achaemenid Sigloi in Gandhara and present day Punjab (600-300 BC).
    You make it sound like they got their a$$es handed out to them from the go… perhaps that really happened in the parallel universes where you Astrally Travel to via cutting edge Raja Yoga technology. But in our little universe, these kingdoms held sway for like 2-3 centuries…. and that’s a pretty long time considering the fact that even powerful empires like Mauryas and Guptas lasted 200-250 years (the ones following the Mauryas did so with effective control over roughly similar areas as those listed kingdoms). And as with the fortunes of war the foreign-origin kingdoms met both defeat and victory in battles and war.

    On this note, I must say quite a number of conquering barbarian/semi-nomadic/warlike nations (of lesser cultural depth) have adopted the customs of a more established, larger and more sedentary culture. The Mongols and Manchus accepted Chinese culture, Western Rome took up many practices and traditions of the East, the Goths adopted Roman religion and culture once Odoacer took Rome…. those pre-Islamic groups that invaded India did likewise. In fact it is the resilience of Islam as a social system and a faith, despite the best (and the most ham-handed) efforts, that drives the Knickerwaalahs to such Krikkitian responses. However, while these groups were on the throne and having domain over large parts of India they faced a unique problem as regards the “social contract” between the ruler and the ruled. Back then, i.e before 600-700 AD caste-system while not yet too rigid still defined the current pecking order, the polity and how things are and should be. The early and middle Dharmashastras, viz. Manu, Yajnavalka, Narada, Vasishta and even their Tikhas, Bhasyas and Nibhandhas were written during this phase….. and the interesting thing is that these texts consistently refer to Yavanas, Bahlikas Sakas etc as impure, degraded Kshatriyas and sometimes even as Lower Castes or Caste less. These texts have detailed arguments against the “mongrel” castes, blood-purity and rants against the groups who usurped the “natural order”. It was also here that certain groups were imparted religious “authority” to have political-social control over other groups… this also coincides with the explosion of the land grants and rise of Indian feudalism. There were also millenarian references to End of Days and widespread destruction at the hands of the invader for that matter. Anyway, the invaders who started to settle here and rule Indic lands became an anomaly in the eyes of the priestly class; these outsiders just didn’t fit into the society or how things are supposed to happen. Partly due to efforts of the victorious invader kings to make themselves more appealing to the natives and partly ‘coz they were impressed by the local culture, they accepted purifying ceremonies and initiation into the native system. Ceremonies like Vratyastoma and subsequent Abhishek/Punarabhishek were designed for initiating the “outsiders” into the social system….. the former dates to Vedic times but were expanded by the Srauta Sutras of Later-Vedic and and post-Vedic times. These social dynamics have been noted by historians/sociologists raninging from M.N. Srinivas, Shastri, Majumdar, Munshi right to D.N. Jha and Kosambi.

  191. Contd from above….

    The 300 BC-500 AD (or more critically, 200 BC – 300 AD) has been called the Golden Age of India, closely rivaling the prosperity and cultural developments of the Gupta Age for a good reason. It was the time when caste barriers were CONSIDERABLY weakened, trade-commerce and artistry boomed and saw the rise of the Vaishya and artisan classes. This period also saw the establishment of strong links with foreign powers and the seas were chock full of Indian, Chinese, Arab and Roman ships. Roman embassies, garrisons, temples, wares and settlements dotting the the Malabar coast, Javans and Chinese in the Coromandel, embassies of the Chinese Emperor and widespread centers of cultural exchanges. After this period, ‘specially the fall of the Guptas (which was partly due to repeated Hun attacks) and the rise of reactionary elements, trade declined to a fraction of the previous volume, the Transit trade from China and SE Asia dried up (in some places it existed in a localised form), the Uttarpath and Dakshinapath trade routes (once as busy as the Silk Route, where Indian outposts remained for some time) went into oblivion as no strong power could keep peace through the length of the route; the routes itself now fell into a dozen warring principalities and trade & commerce became quite impossile. The economy and society therefore became more inward looking, crafts and trade declined and instead of centralised power you had a million little despots running their own fiefdoms by a curious form of Feudalism. There were prominent kingdoms like Pratiharas, Rashtrakutas, Pandyas, Cholas etc but except for a brief period of Chola magnificence (approx 910 AD-1052 AD) you did not see a return to the good old days of yore. It is clear that the massive internal economy was deemed “enough” by the reactionary elements who sought to curtail foreign influences and dynamic social mobility, the texts calling for excommunication of travellers and derision of traders/artisans hail from this very period. Even the last days of the Guptas saw considerable weakening of state power, as is shown by explosion of land grants and decline in the once splendid coinage. BTW, Chola rule and even Gupta rule was not based on religious texts or Dharmashastras, the latter especially was a state based on strong Local Self Governments and a little Hydraulic Despotism (i.e. way more than mere Ritual Sovereignty which seemed to be staple following the death of Chandragupta II). This was an early example of a modern Secular state which is not too moored by religious laws and archaic traditions, where the artisans and lower castes saw their lot improve and morph into powerful camps.

    Knickerwaalahs think that building temples or commissioning artistic and literary works is enough for any two bit Hindu Kingdom be considered as having made “Giant strides in social, intellectual, spiritual, economic and commercial (both national and international) spheres “, but it ain’t so. The people were sliding deeper into feudal control, state structure was weakening at the cost of priesthood and feudals, the Hindu faith became terribly ritualistic (the very development that Upanishadic philosophy sought to avoid). Once Indian traders and Indian built ships used to rule the Arabian Sea… now the Arabs took over the rest of the maritime trade and their Moplah settlements in South India effectively barred Indian states from benefiting from (what little was left of) the Transit Trade. Till 500 AD they had monopoly over only Horse Trade, now it would be another 900 years before the Portuguese displaced them from their commanding heights.

  192. On Buddhist persecution by Hindu dynasties or individual kings; both camps hold totally contradicting views. I personally treat Neo-Buddhists’ claims of “impaling of hundreds of monks and nuns along the banks of the riverbanks” with as much skepticism as the Knickerwaalah’s claim that it was all peaceful, phull 400% assimilative “Kumbaya My Lord”. Truth is obviously somewhere in between. The Buddhists were assailed by constant rhetoric, ridicule and ostracism since their early patrons, viz. Mauryas and Kushanas exited the heartland. No effort of Harsha, sometimes even to the point of denigrating Hinduism and no Pala largesses could reverse the fall from grace. Buddhism, being a monastic religion dependent on the state’s support for physical security and voluntary donations for upkeep (they did not go for Vihara Grants like Devadana system for a long time) and rules of compulsory “retreat” in monsoons to caves to ponder the message could not possibly survive once they lost their ruling patrons. (BTW, the later Guptas did give grants to Nalanda for secular subjects were also taught there, but it would continue to decline until imparted brief spurts of life force courtesy Harsha and Dharampala of the Palas who donated 2000 villages to the university a-la Agrahara system…. and Dharmapala’s son Devapala, who was described to be a “restorator of Buddhism”.) Shramanas became equated to sects like Kapalikas/Kalamukhas due to the creeping in of Shunyavada and the stories floating around on Vajrayana Tantricism. Just like Muslims today are derided for sporting long beards or Hindus ridiculed for “idolatry” for that matter, the reputation of the Buddhists were tarnished beyond repair. The return to Upanishadic Thought by Shankaracharya’s endeavor and his victory over Buddhists in debates also made things worse for them. It was a reversal of Mahavira’s and Buddha’s defeat of Brahmins resulting in hordes of Brahmins (and sometimes Kshatriyas) entering the Buddhist Sangha. Except that the still powerful ritualists and vested interests were waiting at the sidelines to mop up the remnants and takeover Buddhist property, both material and intellectual. Mattavilasaprahasana of Mahendravarma Pallava (despite being a light-hearted satire), the Periyapuranam commissioned by the fanatical Kulottunga II are noted examples of state sponsored moves against the Sramanas.

    Neo-Buddhists cite the disappearance of major works written by Buddhists was an attempt at Damnatio Mameriae; Sramana texts like Manimegalai and Chintamani had popularised Buddhism among the masses. (The Southern Bhakti movement and efforts by powerful chief to curb Buddhism was getting out of hand with forays into truly extreme Shakta Rites and schisms in Vaishnavism and Shaivism (and their clashes) but was stemmed to a great degree by a Manikkavachakar’s Tiruvachakam). They also claim that certain Hindu kings had massacred many prominent Buddhists and razed/captured a number of Buddhists institutions. Now I don’t care what Knickerwaalah’s think but Indian historiography was never uber, save Kalhana’s Rajatarangini to a degree. The Puranas harp on mythological lineage and often contradict each other too, mixing legend and myth into what should be pure history. The Buddhist chornicles of Dipavamsa and Mahavamsa, more rigorous and “scientific” in a sense, as well as contemporary plays featuring Buddhist stories/characters do speak about atrocities by Hindus and Hindu kingdoms. I for one note the biased nature of these sources and the mythologizing/poetic licenses as well as the absence of corroborating (Hindu/Foreign) sources. But that does not mean that it was all a peaceful battle of the Mind. Given the vitriol and frothing hatred of the right-wing nutjobs of the 21st century, who is to say we didn’t have “Open Sramna Hunting Seasons” in those times?

  193. @ Wanderer

    Thanks for the Vidya Bharati lessons.

    The Hindu Gupta Empire, especially under Chandragupta 2, according to your own words “an early example of a modern Secular state which is not too moored by religious laws and archaic traditions, where the artisans and lower castes saw their lot improve and morph into powerful camps”.

    So you admit that a powerful Hindu identity is actually quite secular and non-archaic.

    Thanks for the rest of the Vidya Bharati lesson and thanks for proving our point.

  194. @ Wanderer

    We do have to agree that “History writing” in the subcontinent was never a encouraged practice. A lot of it actually can be blamed on the tradition of oral transmission of knowledge over generations using the ashrama as the medium. (in hindsight not the most prudent).

    And Kalhana’s Rajtarangini does stand out on that issue. In fact a lot of Hindu interaction with the early Islamists in the North West can be traced to Rajtarangini.

    However, you have to remember, that whatever written history was there, was religiously destroyed (by the followers of Quran) along with the big Universities that dotted India.

    Nalanda, Vikramshila and Jagatdal are some that I can think of right away.

    Given the admitted hatred among the “believers of Islam” towards Kafir literature, it is not wrong to assume that a lot fo the written history went down the uncharted blackholes of time, due to the zelous works of piety by Ghazis and Buth-Shikans.

  195. ‘Allo Beta Khujur! Nice to see you squeaking in and claiming victory of the faith.

    No. I was referring to the Chola State System (and note Guptas, who went into statis and decline soo after Chandragupta II died) which held sound Local Self Government principles, Hydraulic Despotism and centralised Govt quite close to Iqta/Mansabdari System combining Civil and Military duties, fiscal system not built on Hindu Dharmashastras and based on Jivita Land Grants or Revenue districts, a diffused cabinet ( kinda like a Politburo), Political Advisor instead of the usual Raj Guru and semi-corporate character of individual regiments. There was considerable help and support to artisans and lower-castes and this period saw the rise of the tradingguilds called Nagaram and prosperous farmers called Vellalas. I could say more but I am sure by now you would have overloaded your 64KB Volatile Memory.
    Regardss.

  196. Re Khujur,

    Ayyo Oops, I see my mistake. I said “the latter” in that post (thus implying the Guptas) while I should have mentioned “the former” (Cholas). I’m sorry!

  197. @ Wanderer

    I guess my 64 KB memory is enough to catch your lies you try to slip in, under the garb of Vidya Bharati verbatims.

    Here is your VERBATIM QUOTE

    “BTW, Chola rule and even Gupta rule was not based on religious texts or Dharmashastras, the latter especially was a state based on strong Local Self Governments and a little Hydraulic Despotism (i.e. way more than mere Ritual Sovereignty which seemed to be staple following the death of Chandragupta II). This was an early example of a modern Secular state which is not too moored by religious laws and archaic traditions, where the artisans and lower castes saw their lot improve and morph into powerful camps.

    Wanderer, get real my friend.

    Now what will be your goal next, my self-deluded friend.
    That Cholas and Guptas were not Hindus?

    Your self-delusional interpretation of history is worse than the likes of Irfan Habib and Romila Aunty.

    PS: Do give some respect to SkandaGupta and Kumarkupta…and lose the abuse

  198. Back to my humble take on General HHBB’s carpet-bombing campaign,

    >> The “wry” 😀 parallel to the Allies of WW2,which he promises to “pound in till it sinks in” just like Jackie Shroff pumping on and on till it “really sunk” into Soha Khan’s babymakers in Antarmahal. I am sure we can have Hujur or Rishi (but I personally would prefer Yourfan2) standing by (like that priest in the movie) and recite “A Bunch of Thoughts” while HHBB keeps going on-n-on like a Energizer Bunny. 😛
    Next, I would like to speak on the mass hoodwink stemming from Knickerwaalahs’ claim to be the “true torchbearers/heir-apparents of comparatively more peaceful Hinduism/Hindu states of old”.

    Firstly:
    I have already outlined my thoughts on various facets of Islam, on why it ain’t a monolithic monster as such with no hope for change in the “Killing Fields of Bengal” post. But here I would like to stress on the the more pertinent Indian Muslims and Islam in India issue here.

    Muslims of India (baaki ko phaad do, I am not too concerned for them) are no Nazis who should be firebombed or sterilized to extinction or conditioned submission/conforming. They do not profess to faith that was originally founded in India (but MOST follow composite, personalized version of Islam that is tied to the Indian traditions of yore) but are as Indian as Sambar Vada. They also hold the same prejudices, fears and lashing and combative attitudes when it comes to their religion. They are as much a victim of my favored party, the INC’s (unfounded) fearful mollycoddling and blatant vote-bankism, just as Hindus who feel they were given a raw deal. Their rising fundamentalism and “closing of ranks” is the exact mirror image of the rising intolerance and cynicism of Hindus courtesy the planned Social Engineering and Psy-Ops of the RSS led narrow, political movement they DARE call Hindutva. The sins of the past, the Ghaznavide and Ghurid and Timurid genocides are a thing of the past and I don’t think Hindus should duke it out with today’s IM’s for what happened in the past. The malicious campaign in portraying even genuinely enlightened Muslim Kings as hateful, spiteful mlecchas and medieval military campaigns (with the usual rapine and plunder of medieval age) as pure Jihad is a recent phenomenon and is a campaign to make Indian Muslims heir-apparent to “1300 years of murder, loot and pillage” by the barbarians who poured in down the Khyber. The selective quotation of parasites such as Utbi, Ferishta if fine in itself, but what the Parivar fanboys and their Pied-Pipers don’t highlight what campaign it was, what was the context … and most importantly how these same conquerors have treated enemies from THEIR OWN FAITH. There are even more references on Gory executions based on Bllood-Guilt, having no basis in the Koran and stories of skinned nephews, bllinded brothers and rebels gibbeteted along the Grand Trunk Road. The destruction of the Rajput kingdoms is not shown as a manifestation of Turk (medieval at that) barbarity but as a direct result of ISSSLAAAAAAMMMM. They quote Timur twisting Koranic verses to massacre Hindus, but do not say that this same “devout Mussalman” did the most unislamic acts on fellow Muslims. These include sacking the entire Middle East…. and forcing the Ottoman Emperor watch his Empress strip dance for himself and his Staff Officers as the story goes.

    The fundamental mistake is in identifying today’s Indian Muslim’s with the few oppressors of old, portraying the Medieval Islamic “paramountcy” as a 1300 year-long age of oppression, cherry-picking incidents/speeches by Muslim extremists and drawing false parallels with the invaders of old (all painted by a broad brush). For that matter the progeny of those invaders are cowering under the heel of Russians and Americans now. (Bad Karma sucks, eh?) Even all this confrontationism would have been “Kosher” (good for venting purposes and all), after all hate-mongering is nothing new…. if not for the probing to the religious traditions and memes of Hindus and presenting the Secular State Polity built on (carefully selected) Modernism and showing the whole lot of Indian Muslims as an enemy whom Hindus must unite against. And who truly represents the aspirations and sensibilities of the majority and should “lead” the “battle for the soul of India”, Yours Knickerly! The fact that some members of the Indian Muslim community chose to side with Pan-Islamism and Islamo-fascism excaberates things but ganging up against ALL Indian Muslims and turning up the vitriol and “proving” that Hindus have awakened politically and militantly would only be counterproductive to India.

    Patting yourself on the back believing you are the Warrior of History out to “destroy the threat of Islam” like the Lancaster Pilots over Nazi Germany is either downright stupidity (stemming from ignorance) or simply malicious Orwellian Doublethink. I hope THIS sinks in, Grass Hopper.

  199. @ Wanderer

    I was expecting the Timur comment from you the last time, I gave quotes from Tizuk-e-Timuri in the “Killing Fields of Bengal” post. Somehow u missed it.

    The response you gave this time, is exactly the response Romila Thapar gave, when a friend of mine, quoted Eliot & Dawson on Timur as aprt of a question answer session with her.

    She got all pissed and angry about it, when we told that we r just quoting Timur himself..HEHEHEHE.

    What you forget is that Timur and other flagbearers of Islam, have clearly made a defined separation of their treatment of Non-believer Hindus/Jains and the beleiver agaisnt whom they were fighting. Timur may have killed a lot of Muslims (just like the Taliban), BUT THEIR CLEARLY DEFINED HATTRED OF THE NON-BELIEVER,THE KAFIR AND THE DHIMMI HAS REMAINED UNCHANGED.

    Those Muslim rulers, who you so often lionize, as being “good Muslims”, at best gave the Hindu/Buddhist/Jain/Sikhs, the status of a Dhimmi.

    That includes those who in your delusional world you call “moderates” like Khilji’s and Tughlaqs.

    You can fill the pages of the blog here as much as u want with “your” interperation of these events…..just like Romila Auntie does.

    I am not the one drawing false parallels, you are the one doing it.

    As for us being the stupid Lancaster Pilots over Nazi Germany, trust me, it didnt take long for them to come up with the De-Haviland “Mosquito” bomber.

    All it takes is the will….and ofcourse the ability to resist pathetic drags (not in the transgender sense, but in a aerodynamic sense) like you.

  200. Second point, contd from the last post:

    In some preceding posts I have given my take on the nature of Indian Polity of those ages. My basic point is that ALL major Hindu/Muslim Empires and Kingdoms we cherish today are those built on negating to a great degree the “social control theories” and those “one-size-fits-all solutions” prescribed in religious canon and contemporary social memes. The modern day Right-Wing also erroneously claim that we had this glorious history and those powerful kingdoms and beacons of human creation BECAUSE of the tenets of their scriptures (of choosing). The fundamental flaw in this claim is as below;
    The original RV, the Axial Age Upanishadic Thought and a handful of other scattered doctrines from other periods are truly penetrating and brilliant; one could safely say that they are peerless in that regard. The problem begins when the originally fluid caste system became too fluid way back in circa. 100 BC for some vested interests and ritualism started creeping back into the Indic system. The DharmaShastras which are man-made Smritis on earlier man-made non-revealed DharmaSutras which themselves are a part of the man-made non-revealed Kalpa Vedanga which deals with ….. RITUAL. The Kalpa Vedanga itself is chiefly emanating from the Taittiriya Samhita of the Black Yajur Veda. The original Dharmasutras were written in the closing days on the axial age and were not yet trampling down on sections of the society, but the Dharma Shastras (by Manu, Narada etc from 100 AD) show unmistakable deviation from the original egalitarianism by keeping down sections of the society in the name of “greater good”, with a lot of balm and gloss. The Tikhas and Bhasyas on these Shastras continuing the thread until it became “divine law” by people like HHBB wrily beating their meat till it sank in… though it had nothing divine about it. It was effin’ Smriti, unrevealed… not revealed Shruti. Still the project went ahead and coupled with Land Grants the whole country went to sh1t by 700 AD. One could have understood if the society was facing imminent destruction and a redestribution of social functions and setting up a hierarchy was necessary. But no, they were written when the economy was on an upswing and lower castes etc began to mint their own money, Brahmins indulge in trade and disrupt “Rita”.

    BTW, I wish to add that this analysis is in no way a Marxian Dialectic which harps on Class Struggle. The few (unsuccessful) efforts in curbing this social evil came from the Brahmin and Kshatriya community till Modernism kicked in at top-gear. Moreover, the too-clever-by-half Class Struggle funda itself is invalid here for Marxian Theories of Labor and Ownership does not apply, nor does their version of the State and what’s lovingly called Oriental Despotism exactly describes the rulers and the ruled.

    Back to my point,
    the “religious texts” and the whole divine/religion thing involved in running of state and socio-political theory INVARIABLY ends in introverting the people and sabotaging the system under pretexts of “divinity”. It has happened in Hinduism (despite what the Knickerwaalahs sell you), it is sadly still happening in Islam, we saw it happen in Christianity and I say that even if the “Church of Elvis the King” reigns supreme we shall see these same old shenanigans again. At the same time, those kingdoms that truly succeeded in India were not the archaics holding “tradition” and “religion” close to their bosoms. It were those kingdoms that built a few temples and gave Devadana to placate the reactionaries among the Brahmins and at the same time built a state that was (for those times) not based on any religious canon. See, the Shastras deny education and politics/bureaucracy and Viceroyship to Vaishyas and Sudras; but the Nagaram system and the Vellalas alone show the stark deviation from what was “divine law”. The Guptas were strictly Kshatriyas, the Gupta state for all it’s temple building went AGAINST scripture by attempting to open up trade y removing cess and heavy taxes on trade. Secular law was devised and Magistrates from the four castes (but not yet the Pariahs, but hey… it was the Ancient age) and attempted to bring about cash economy. BTW, the last point is important in these contexts, folks please dwell on it! It was not just by virtue of being a HINDU praying to KRISHNA/SHIVA etc that imparted this character to kingdoms like these…. it was the essence of being Indian and being in touch with a number of diverse, contradicting and sometimes fighting faiths that made them tailor their successful systems. If those wise Kings and their people had followed what became religious canon and became Hindu-with-a-capital-H, they would have faded out of the scene like the umpteen minor dynasties of India.

    This historic precedent of the necrosis of the tolerant, accepting and vibrant faith into a grim, ritualistic and psychotic system that trampled the majority of it’s adherents under sandalwood footwear is what makes a polity based on then popular/defined by someone who claims authority over these things OUTRIGHT dangerous. In all fairness the Europeans and the Americans did us a great favor by coming up with some splendid, well enunciated and timeless ideas of modernity; principles one can safely apply to your polity. Anybody who makes a pitch saying that their political organisation “twuely represents the dharma” and your aspirations and security in the face of a Mleccha must be given the Kick-in-the-nut$ treatment, ‘oz when you make the sacrifice they and their evil geriatric masters will be the first to help THEMSELVES to the sacrifice. And it won’t be long before you lose the constitutional securities guaranteed to all and see wilful and selective implementation of “ancient canon” or “revised ancient canon”.

    BTW, who died and made these jokers the representatives of Hindu faith and Dharma? This movement is simply a Love-Child of Twisted Nationalism and and Culture Shock.

    The argument that these kingdoms itself show Hinduism has self-correcting measures is also invalid. These actions were a function of quirks in society of those times or as a result of ONE enlightened man. These wise and secular policies did not spring from what was then Hindu Law either…. and their is no indication that those Kings invoked Upanishadic Thought while booting out archaic canon. You see, First Phase and Second Phases of Southern Bhakti was in the picture then, but even they cannot claim to a truly all-encompassing nature; for a long time there were acrimonious brinkmanship between Hindu faiths as shown by the famous Vaishnava Schism and parochial acts of a few fanatic Shaivite/Vaishnavite kings goaded by some Guru. Vedanta was never a doctrine of choice for the rulers, Bhakti on the other hand can help in state running if the ruler identifies himself as a devotee with a popular deity/totem)

  201. Re Khujur

    Wowwwwwwww, my darling Romie Aunty got stumped just like that? On a quotation from Elliot and Dawson on Medieval History in a Q & A session? Oooooh I am so convinced of my folly and wasted life. The Humanity! The Humanity! 😛

    Khujur Mian, I don’t care if your brilliant friend turned Dungeon-Master and “disciplined” the Ghost of D.D.Kosambi with a paddle and a cactus stem. If Romie Aunty indeed was p1ssed and angry and wordless by the damp squib you tout as the “Swaard of Twuth” she deserves the ridicule (and allegations of senility) heaped on her.

    “BUT THEIR CLEARLY DEFINED HATRED OF THE NON-BELIEVER,THE KAFIR AND THE DHIMMI HAS REMAINED UNCHANGED”

    The THEIR in “THEIR CLEARLY DEFINED HATRED” refers to Timur and Taliban, right? And all the fundamentalist streams of Islam by implication I suppose? Oh wait, it applies to ALL Muslims….. every single Abdul! And you base this theory on the self-aggrandizing of the most bloodthirsty Medieval warlord and a glorified Cotton/Poppy protection crew made up of tribals (and goaded by THE Rentier State)? BTW, you are in are turn attacking your own counterpart “birathers” in the other side of the spectrum….. the ones who dug up the notion of a Holy Land based on what they interpret to be the tenets of the faith? Wunderbar!
    And I thought the best cut-shot in history was that bone-to-spaceship scene in 2001: A Space Odyssey. Now Rishy Khujurbric has conjured up an even more memorable and violent cut-scene; the lips of Timur mumbling “Kill ’em all” to the Muezzein calling the Adhan 21st century AD. Nice trick….. they have many terms for this kind of logical fallacy but I would call it bloody malice.

    BTW, when Knickerwaalahs are bravely overcoming aerodynamic/sociodynamic drag with their brave new De-Havilland Machhar {Aadmi ko Hijada (Drag-Queen) Ban saktha He} Bomber… do pull your rigid “undercarriage” into your ventral cavity. It helps if it is a Cold day but a true warrior has to try.

  202. Re Hara HaraBom Bom

    O Scourge of the Pantie-waalahs and Champion of a Hundred Pantie-Raids, I shall soon reply to your “pearl-necklaces” of wisdom viz. secularism, nature of the Indian Polity and my take on what you nutcases insinuate as “destroying Hinduism”. I just need to recharge my bio-batteries at the Cloning Vats in JNU you see…. and I got a day job too.

    You be a patient and good boy/girl/androgynous-offspring meanwhile, wokay?
    Ciao.

  203. by extension of your logic…and oh god I have done this atleast 3 times before on this blogsite and I clearly remember HHBB doing it atleast 3 more times…but it jsut doesnt godown your scatterbrain.

    1. Do you think the Allies and Nazis are equally responsible for world war 2, given that both sides killed people.

    2. Giving a closer to home example, do you think we should be responding to violent attacks from enemy countries or just withdraw until attack hits closer to home.

    Your inablity actually connect the guiding philosophy behind how Timur looked at Kafirs and how the Taliban or the Madrassa/masjid going Muslim looks at it, is not merely a example of ignorance, as is the case with many others, who dont care to read history or analyse current events.

    In your rubric I see a more malevolent intent, for you inspite of knowing the reality (which obviously shows through your good knowledge of Vidya Bharati), continue to follow line of thought that uses every word in their vocabulary, to look for a pigion in a snakehole.

    I realise you thoroughly got smacked on the De haviland “Macchar” metaphor…for you must acknowledge the immense innovation and will needed to pull out a bomber like Dehaviland out of a carcass like Lancaster….

    You can blow your Jonker Stuka horn before your to illuminate your Illyusin audience…

  204. @ Wanderer
    Also, since you spent so much energy pointing out the internal problems, we have faced historically, within the Hindu Society and almost used that as a justification for whitewashing the Islamic atrocities in our part of the world (almost like saying…Oh the French were pussies anyway…so its fine that Nazis romped through to Nice’).

    The Hindutva movement, is very aware of our internal issues…all of it. The issues with caste, the see-saw in the status of women and weaker sections within the societal structure..every bit of it.

    What is advocated here is not a return to Chandragupta-2 period or Raja-Raja Chola’s period or Harshavardhan’s period.

    What we advocate is the udnerstanding of all these periods and skimming the best ideas that could be had out of them for a contemporary interpretation and application…a whole bigger picture.

    Sticking to Nehru’s vision and Romila’s history will not lead u there.

  205. COMMENT – 1

    Wanderer,

    Nice post, where I notice you have not defended most of your earlier points I had squarely challenged. This can only mean that I have refuted them effectively. [Blush]. Thanks for giving me the opportunity of refuting the remaining few.

    Before that, a few words. Your posts are dripping with terms like “watery dysentery-discharges” and “hands in a$$”. They are replete with utterances of wet dreams and keen interest in the hue of other people’s bottoms. One or two saucy comments to liven up your otherwise bland rhetoric is understandable, but a super-saturation of such points is unique and most revealing. Does it suggest acute frustration of your unrealised personal fantasies and dashing of unfulfilled sensual dreams? Then you have out sympathies. After all, what is a public comment board for if not to support lesser mortals in their “hand in a$$” cravings?

    But careful now. The police may be watching you !! Or your mum !!! 🙂

    POINT 1 : PERSIA CONQUERED INDIA
    You’d earlier mentioned that PERSIA had conquered India. When I pointed out only in Gandhara, you proceeded to say “Gandhara is in Pakistan, the Honor & Dignity of twue citizens (do you have a lisp Wanderor? You seem like prime bachelor material !!) are intact! How conveniently one “misses” the fact that the southern CAR and present day Pakistan was then as Indic as Magadha”.

    Well it’s not about basking in the smug satisfaction of not being conquered, but about historical fact. India has been invaded and conquered innumerable times. So what? The core values of India remain true to its ancient roots. Germany, Italy, Turkey, France, Russia, China .. all have been conquered innumerable times. Britain has been conquered so effectively and frequently (Spaniards, Celts, Brythons, Angles, Saxons, Jutes, Vikings, Normans etc etc) that it is incapable of speaking or thinking in terms that are not imposed by aliens. That is the sign of true conquest, when the conquered fails to distinguish himself from the conqueror.
    I challenged your point on ‘Persian conquering India’ as it is incorrect on a number of levels.

    1. The region you cite was heavily influenced by Vedic culture. However, by the time of Achaemanid expansion eastwards, it had certainly lost its exclusive Vedic character. While definitely still a part of cultural India, to claim that the region in 400 BCE onwards is as characteristic of core Indic values as Magadha (or even its contemporary Saishunaga or Pandyan empires) is historical distortion.

    2. The Indo-Parthians ruled not as Parthians, but independent kings. They had declared complete independence from the Arsacids. So we cannot say Persians were ruling India, just as we would be unable to pass off Mughal rule as a testament of Persian conquests.

    3. Finally, your points was about conversion of foreign invaders to Hinduism & Buddhism. The Indo-Parthians carved out an empire for themselves from areas already invaded by Kushans, and very soon lost that (by 75 AD) to the Indianized Kushans. The only Parthian king worthy of mention is Gondopharnes. And neither did they undergo conversion to Hinduism or Buddhism.

    The point would have been ok if you mentioned Indo-Scythians, who held on to Indian territory, and core ones at that as opposed to peripheral areas, for far longer. In the context of Persia, the point is incorrect.

  206. COMMENT 2

    POINT 2 : ANCIENT COINS
    Wanderer : “Maybe you should google out Achaemenids and the Indo-Achaemenid, the Greeks, the Indo-Greeks, the Kushanas, the Indo-Scythian kingdoms, the Indo-Parthians and of course the Hunas. Maybe understand how long they ruled LARGE parts of India, for considerable periods of time. Hey, the first coins unearthed in India were the Achaemenid Sigloi in Gandhara and present day Punjab (600-300 BC)”.

    I don’t need to google anything; I am aware of most of this history. You are the one who needs to desperately improve googling skills to spare yourself further severely embarrassing blunders (Vasugupta was a Kashmiri king killed by Brahmins .. my foot). Khair cchoro.

    Interesting periods you quote (600 BCE onwards), but is it accurate? The Achaemenid kingdom itself started in 559 BCE, not 600 BCE. It is highly unlikely Cyrus had conquered the East before 539 BC, when he was invading Babylon. The most likely date seems to be between 539 and 530 BC (death of Cyrus).

    Where did you get your figure of 600 BC from?

    Per ‘my’ understanding, the earliest coins ‘minted’ in India are deemed to be the Karshapanas, Panas and Puranas minted by the Mahajanapadas of India between 600 – 300 BCE. There are some interesting examples of these in :

    http://www.chennaimuseum.org/draft/gallery/04/01/coin1.htm

    Thanks for mentioning the Gandhara find of coins. Gandhara was conquered at some point of time in the 6th century BCE, (an inscription of Darius dated to 520 BCE mentions Gandhara). However, a unique feature of the Gandhara coins is they are completely unlike any other coins in circulation in Persia (e.g. those resembling the monarch fully armed & running in battle). A strong reason posited to explain why the mass circulated coins of a satrapy are so radically different to those of the mother kingdom, is that they were following an already long established tradition of coinage in the area.

    This is not dreamy eyed right-wing speculation. It is a strong and objective historical hypothesis.

    POINT 3 : ASTRAL TRAVEL & FISTs
    Wanderer : (after a talk about ‘hand in a$$’ … his favorite term, possibly pastime as well?) proceeds to ‘perhaps that really happened in the parallel universes where you Astrally Travel to via cutting edge Raja Yoga technology.

    Did I say I managed to astrally travel, or even attempt to? I said it was an interesting phenomenon which many thousands of people are experiencing in the East & the West. If I were prolific in doing so, do you seriously believe I would waste my time quibbling with you & your tragic examples of bad googling.

    You are merrily making up facts in your lonely universe again. You can deduce that I am interested in objective developments in para-psychology, but you cannot say I practice them. Just like I can say from your ‘hand in a$$’ comment that you have an eager and genuine keenness for fisting. But I cannot say that you are the “Chairman of the under-40s Kerala fisting club”. Hain nan?

  207. COMMENT 3

    POINT 4 : BARBARIAN KINGDOMs
    Wanderer : “But in our little universe, these kingdoms held sway for like 2-3 centuries…. and that’s a pretty long time considering the fact that even powerful empires like Mauryas and Guptas lasted 200-250 years (the ones following the Mauryas did so with effective control over roughly similar areas as those listed kingdoms)”.

    History does not judge the importance of a kingdom solely by tenure. Any positive influence of the Indo-Parthian, Saka & Huna kingdoms on India has been minimal. The achievements of Hu / Buddhist kingdoms of even smaller tenure were far more profound. That is the point. Tatar rule in Russia lasted nearly as long as Roman rule of the Mediterranean. The latter is far more important.

    Wanderer : “quite a number of conquering barbarian/semi-nomadic/warlike nations (of lesser cultural depth) have adopted the customs of a more established, larger and more sedentary culture. The Mongols and Manchus accepted Chinese culture, W.Rome took up … traditions of the East, Goths adopted Roman religion and culture once Odoacer took Rome…. those pre-Islamic groups that invaded India did likewise”.

    Yes, they adopted the ‘superior’ culture of their foes. Just like the plunderers of India ended up adopting the superior Hm.

    But there is still a distinction here. Did the other races adopt the culture of their defeated foes so completely as the Sakas & Hunas did in India? (I am not sure about this, but) I believe the Manchu dress code remained unaltered and gained popularity all over China. Written Manchu was still used to record official records. This is in spite of the fact that Manchus were numerically insignificant compared to the Hans.

    Further the Romans did not adopt Greek law. Odoacer did adopt Roman law, tax and administration,ut what was he supposed to do, he was ruling over Italy? He however did ‘not’ adopt the most important thing, religion. He was a staunch Arian.

    Thus you will see that such communities tried to preserve at least some elements of their exclusiveness in some form or another. The Saka and Huna integration in to the Hindu fold was a lot more willing and concrete.

    Wanderer : “In fact it is the resilience of Islam as a social system and a faith, despite the best (and the most ham-handed) efforts, that drives the Knickerwaalahs to such Krikkitian responses”.

    No, it is the fanatic and annihilatory fanaticism of Im as a social system and faith that the intelligent Hs find alarming. As does rest of the civilized world outside the magic-mushroom land of pantie-walees.

    The Zoroastrians have proved to be a strong, resilient community that has successfully maintained perfect exclusion from Hm. As have the Jews of India. If your point was correct, Hm would seethe at these 2 communities as well. But they don’t. So your point is rubbish.

    POINT 5 : CASTE OSSIFICATION AFTER 900 AD? WHAT ABOUT MITAKSHAR (11th CENTURY)?
    Wanderer : “However, while these groups were on the throne and having domain over large parts of India they faced a unique problem as regards the “social contract” between the ruler and the ruled. Back then, i.e before 600-700 AD caste-system while not yet too rigid still defined the current pecking order, the polity and how things are and should be”.

    You are being too woolly with your dates. In your earlier post, you mentioned the social system fossilized in 700 to 900 AD. Then you said we had a good run till 750 AD & subsequent degeneration was due to the Brahmins. You see many of these dates and facts are products of your imagination as proved below.

    Manu Smriti is credited to have been written between 2nd century BCE & 2nd century ADE. Even diehard hindu-haters (like Romila Thapar) accept this. It is true that this Smriti accumulated many interpolations, which may have been introduced quite later, but that the basic structure of the original version was not too displaced from its current form is brought out by the fact that the Gita contradicts many prescriptions of Manu, suggesting caste consciousness was present at the time of the Gita (200 AD).

    Why do you suggest Smritic activity fossilized after 900 ADE? As is well known, Mitakshara, which was based on Yajnavalka Smriti, was written by Vijnaneshwara during the reign of the Chalukyas in the 11th century A.D. It was written by a Southerner (as N.India had fallen to the Turks, & as Al Biruni himself admits, intellectual activity spread south), and spread all over India except Bengal & Assam (which still followed Dayabhaga).

    Mitakshara is considered to be far more secular, and far less steeped in religious justification than its predecessors. And it gained popularity all over India in the 11th century, well after your alleged ‘complete degeneration of society caused by the Brahmins from 900 AD, no 750 AD, actually 600 AD).

    Wanderer : “The early and middle Dharmashastras, viz. Manu, Yajnavalka, Narada, Vasishta and even their Tikhas, Bhasyas and Nibhandhas were written during this phase….. these texts consistently refer to Yavanas, Bahlikas Sakas etc as impure, degraded Kshatriyas and sometimes even as Lower Castes or Caste less. These texts have detailed arguments against the “mongrel” castes”.

    Denunciation of foreign tribes has far earlier precedents. The Bhisma Parva of the Mahabharata contemptibly refers to these tribes (Huna, Yavan, Chin, Kambojas as Mlecchas). And this is plum right after the Hindu golden age, which under your definition, continued to prosper economically till 750 AD, at least 400 years after the Bhisma Parva.

    Wanderer “Ceremonies like Vratyastoma and subsequent Abhishek/Punarabhishek were designed for initiating the “outsiders” into the social system….. the former dates to Vedic times but were expanded by the Srauta Sutras of Later-Vedic and and post-Vedic times. These social dynamics have been noted by historians/sociologists raninging from M.N. Srinivas, Shastri, Majumdar, Munshi right to D.N. Jha and Kosambi”.

    Are these historians stating that these customs spread with immense popularity during 900 AD, or are you saying that?

    Aside, are you claiming that DN Jha is a historian, or a sociologist?

  208. COMMENT 4

    POINT 6 : TRADE DEMOLISHED BY HINDUS. WHAT ABOUT VIGOROUS TRADE DURING HOYSALA & VIJAYNAGAR

    Wanderer : “The 300 BC-500 AD (or more critically, 200 BC – 300 AD) has been called the Golden Age of India, closely rivaling the prosperity and cultural developments of the Gupta Age for a good reason. It was the time when caste barriers were CONSIDERABLY weakened, trade-commerce and artistry boomed and saw the rise of the Vaishya and artisan classes.

    This period also saw the establishment of strong links with foreign powers and the seas were chock full of Indian, Chinese, Arab and Roman ships. Roman embassies, garrisons, temples, wares and settlements dotting the the Malabar coast, Javans and Chinese in the Coromandel, embassies of the Chinese Emperor and widespread centers of cultural exchanges”.

    Good. Are you writing this or am I? 🙂

    Wanderer : “After this period, ’specially the fall of the Guptas (which was PARTLY 😦 due to repeated Hun attacks) and the rise of reactionary elements, trade declined to a fraction of the previous volume, the Transit trade from China and SE Asia dried up (in some places it existed in a localised form), the Uttarpath and Dakshinapath trade routes ..went into oblivion AS NO STRONG POWER COULD KEEP PEACE THROUGH THE LENGTH OF THE ROUTE (emphasis HHBB’s) ; the routes itself now fell into a dozen warring principalities and trade & commerce became quite impossible.

    The economy and society therefore became more inward looking, crafts and trade declined and instead of centralised power you had a million little despots running their own fiefdoms by a curious form of Feudalism.”

    So you are agreeing that the main reason was the destruction by the Hunas of the Gupta kingdom, creating a vast power vacuum. I would add that subsequent relentless and sustained attacks by the Huns ripping through the Indian heartland would have seriously undermined Indian commerce throughout 400 AD to 800 AD.

    Note that the Hunas may have existed as a distinct entity until the 9th century, as Devapala of Banga (810-850 AD) is said to have invaded & received tributes from Vindhyas, Dravidas, Hunas, Gurjaras & Kambojas in the West. (So much so for Buddhist pacifism and Brahmanical aggression) !!

    Wanderer : “There were prominent kingdoms like Pratiharas, Rashtrakutas, Pandyas, Cholas etc but except for a brief period of Chola magnificence (approx 910 AD-1052 AD) you did not see a return to the good old days of yore. It is clear that the massive internal economy was deemed “enough” by the reactionary elements who sought to curtail foreign influences and dynamic social mobility, the texts calling for excommunication of travellers and derision of traders/artisans hail from this very period”.

    Yes, but were these Hu reactionary elements an important cause of mercantile decline, or merely the reflection of an existing phenomenon? As mentioned earlier, such pronouncements is likely to have had insignificant impact on affairs on the ground. This is proven by the fact that trade, national and international, continued to flourish in Hindu kingdoms before their destruction by Mm invasions.

    Let us take the Hoysalas, who flourished in Karnataka between the 10th & 14th centuries, well after your alleged period of ossification.

    (a) Were the Hoysalas devout Hindus? Yes. It was during their reign that Madhavacharya & Ramanuja flourished. They were exquisite temple builders (Halebidu, Beluru, Chennakeshava). Even their names (Vishnuvardhan, Narasingha) betray a strong Hindu leaning.

    The famous literature of the time had a strong religious bent, like Rudrabhatta’s Jagannath Bijoy and Harishwar’s Girijakalyan (marriage of Shiva & Parvati). However, both Sanskrit & Kannada were given patronage, and schools of higher learning (Ghatikas) flourished.

    (B) Did trade prosper during their reign? The import of horses was a flourishing business on the W.seaboard. Rich woods like teak were harvested from forests and exported. Sung records from China mention Indian merchants in ports of S.China, indicating active trade with overseas kingdoms.

    The area exported a host of goods, including textiles, spices, condiments and medicinal plants. A florishing export trade existed for precious stones, jewels, gold, ivory, rhino horn, perfumes and ebony, as well as commodities like ebony, aloe wood, sandalwood, and camphor. Export markets included China, Dhofar, Aden, and Siraf (the entry port to Egypt, Arabia and Persia).

    Apropos the artisan clans, architects (Vishwakarmas), sculptors, quarry workers, goldsmiths and other skilled craftsmen became highly proposperous because of vigorous temple building activities.

    I can provide similar examples of vigorous national and international trade in Hu kingdoms post ‘alleged ossification period (900 AD) for the Vijayanagar empire.

    Do you now see why your point is hopelessly wrong?

    I had mentioned the Hoysalas & Vijayanagar in my previous post. Instead of acknowledging what is patently true, you persist in twisting the facts to fit your bizarre theory. Thus I called it drivel.

    POINT 7 : HINDU KINGDOMs NOT HINDU EN OUGH !!

    “Chola rule and even Gupta rule was not based on religious texts or Dharmashastras, the latter especially was a state based on strong Local Self Governments and a little Hydraulic Despotism (i.e. way more than mere Ritual Sovereignty which seemed to be staple following the death of Chandragupta II). This was an early example of a modern Secular state which is not too moored by religious laws and archaic traditions, where the artisans and lower castes saw their lot improve and morph into powerful camps”.

    This is exactly what we’re saying. In spite of what certain sacred texts may have enjoined, it is highly unlikely they would have been practiced in even avowedly Hindu kingdoms. Thus Hindu kingdoms were overall benign & tolerant, more interested in promoting trade, knowledge, spiritual progress and culture rather than narrow religious dogma (like their Mm counterparts). This is the overall strength of Hm.

    Thus even having the current Constitution to possess elements of a Hindu character, will not impair, but rather promote national development. BTW, I do not believe in adding a religious tinge to the Constitution, just removing the present obvious anti-Hu religious adulteration that application of the Constitution has come to assume. But I wanted to emphasise the fact that a liberal dosage of Hm at state level is not detrimental as the panti-walees claim.

    Wanderor : “Knickerwaalahs think building temples is enough for any two bit Hindu Kingdom be considered as having made “Giant strides “, but it ain’t so. The people were sliding deeper into feudal control, state structure was weakening at the cost of priesthood and feudals, the Hindu faith became terribly ritualistic ..the Arabs took over the rest of the maritime trade . Till 500 AD they had monopoly over only Horse Trade, now it would be another 900 years before the Portuguese displaced them from their commanding heights”.

    My Point 6 above will remove any pantie-walee historical ignorance.

  209. COMMENT 5
    POINT 8 : Hu PERSECUTION OF BUDDHISM
    WANDERER : “I personally treat Neo-Buddhists’ claims of “impaling of hundreds of monks and nuns along the banks of the riverbanks” with as much skepticism as the Knickerwaalah’s claim that it was all peaceful. Truth is obviously somewhere in between”.

    Yes. But pantie-walee claims of equating the mass genocide of Xtian inquisitions and millennia-long Mm Jehad with the traces of Hu-Buddhist strife are false.

    WANDERER : “The Buddhists were assailed by constant rhetoric, ridicule and ostracism since their early patrons, viz. Mauryas and Kushanas exited the heartland. No effort of Harsha, sometimes even to the point of denigrating Hinduism and no Pala largesses could reverse the fall from grace.

    Buddhism, being a monastic religion dependent on the state’s support for physical security and voluntary donations for upkeep (they did not go for Vihara Grants like Devadana system for a long time) and rules of compulsory “retreat” in monsoons to caves to ponder the message could not possibly survive once they lost their ruling patrons”.

    Yes & no. Yes, Buddhist emperors certainly did not lack mettle (Kushans, Harsha, valiant Pala warriors) often giving as good as they got. And no; the decline in Buddhism was seen at a mass level, not at an institutional level. Monasteries in fact strengthened due to their insistence on learning and strict discipline.

    WANDEROR “BTW, the later Guptas did give grants to Nalanda for secular subjects were also taught there, but it would continue to decline until imparted brief spurts of life force courtesy Harsha and Dharampala of the Palas who donated 2000 villages to the university a-la Agrahara system…. and Dharmapala’s son Devapala, who was described to be a “restorator of Buddhism”).”

    Where did you get your facts from? Rather than survive in gasps and spurts, Nalanda continued to prosper from its inception in 427 AD well in to the 9th centuries.

    There were short-term periods of decline, like the Hun sacking, but it was almost reconstructed and financially reinvigorated by the Gupta kings Puragupta and Narasinghagupta. Xuanzang who visited India in 630 A.D. under Harsha describes “richly adorned towers” with observatories “lost in morning dew”. The architecture was stupendous, with nine-storey buildings, eight compounds, ten temples, meditation halls, a great library and dozens of classrooms. It was dotted with lakes and parks, and its finances were secure, since Harsh had endowed 100 villages to the convent, while villagers provided food to the University.

    Incidentally, Harsha was not a Buddhist. His brother & sister were. He was a Saivite, who patronized both Hm & Buddhism.

    You have mentioned the Palas gave 2,000 villages to Nalanda. I am interested to know where you got this from, and why the figure is so high (there were 10,000 students, so this would mean one village for every 5 students … seems suspicious).

    Wanderer : “Shankaracharya’s victory over Buddhists made things worse. The still powerful ritualists were waiting at the sidelines to mop up the remnants and takeover Buddhist property. Mattavilasaprahasana of Mahendravarma Pallava, the Periyapuranam commissioned by the fanatical Kulottunga II are noted examples of state sponsored moves against the Sramanas”.

    Ah, it’s those ossified, fossilized ritualists of 900 AD, sorry 600 AD, who are lurking around the corner again. I have not read the complete versions of Mattavilasaprahasana or Periyapuranam, so hopefully you can help me.

    Mattavilasaprahasana is a complete farce between the drunk Kapalika Kapali & a Buddhist monk. The former erroneously believes the latter to have stolen his skull, when a dog had actually done it. Please inform me of the descriptions of Buddhist persecution. There is an interesting area though, where Kapali accuses the Buddha to have appropriated Upanishadic ideas.

    And Kulottunga II was intolerant to Hs as well, he threw away Govindaraja’s statue from the shrine at Chidambaram temple, & is probably the Krimikantha who persecuted Ramanuja. Can you describe the specific acts of anti-Bu violence mentioned in Sekkilar’s Peryapuranam (I thought the Puranam was only a hagiography of 60 odd Saiva saints)? Do we find any mention of these in any other prime source, like Ottakkuttan’s Kulottungachola Ula or Takkayagapparan, or any of the works by Kamban? He only ruled for 14 years.

    WANDERER : “Neo-Buddhists cite the disappearance of major works written by Buddhists was an attempt at Damnatio Mameriae; Sramana texts like Manimegalai and Chintamani had popularised Buddhism among the masses. They also claim that certain Hindu kings had massacred many prominent Buddhists and razed/captured a number of Buddhists institutions”.

    The Buddhist penchant for exaggeration and Hu capacity for confabulation is legendary. For example, Buddhists lambast Pushyamitra Sunga in Ashokbodon & Dibyodaan, yet modern historians completely reject these. Not only did Pushyamitra precede these works by 2-3 centuries, even that outright Hindu-hater Romila Thapar claims that the repeated references to Buddhist persecution may merely be a record of Pushyamitra’s attacks on the Mauryas. In fact, the Barhut stupa was built by the Sungas.

    POINT 10 : CONCLUSION
    WANDERER : “Given the vitriol and frothing hatred of the right-wing nutjobs of the 21st century, who is to say we didn’t have “Open Sramna Hunting Seasons” in those times?”

    Yes, but is the 21st century vitriol directed at a group of hapless Buddhists, or at the overpopulating hordes of increasingly aggressive fanatic Ms, who have outlined their frenzied hatred of Hm & massacred millions to prove their intentions.

    Whereas the Open Red Indian Hunting season, Open Aboriginal Hunting Season, Open Slave Hunting Season, Open Kaffir Hunting season, Open Hindu Hunting season, & even the none too distant Open Jew Hunting season, are all meticulously documented genocides of gargantuan proportions by the religions of love and peace?

    Do you see the distinction? Probably not.

    “O Scourge of the Pantie-waalahs and Champion of a Hundred Pantie-Raids”

    Hey, you keep your pantie and your fantasy to yourself. 🙂

  210. It would be interesting to see if the secularists agree / disagree with the following article.

    Similar crimes occur in India as well (horrible dowry deaths, rape of tribals, abuse of lower castes). However, can they be attributed to religion as starkly as some of the crimes below suggest … see the section on Pakistan which runs s€x slave camps of non-Mulsim women in every major city.

    http://www.rationalistinternational.net/article/20041120_en.html

    Islam and Women

    Dr. Younus Shaikh

    Dr. Younus Shaikh, Pakistani Rationalist and founder President of the Rationalist organization of Pakistan, “The Enlightenment”, who was once sentenced to death for blasphemy in Pakistan, writes on Islam and Women.

    I
    Before the advent of Islam, the pagan Arab women generally enjoyed a respectable status in society; many of them including Khadija – the first wife of the prophet of Islam, had the right to engage in business and choose or dismiss their husbands in a matrilineal fashion; they took part in most activities of war and peace including public worship. In female oriented Arab paganism, goddesses had special status; in Mecca, the female goddess Al-Uzza, in Taif the goddess Al-Lat and in Medina the goddess Manat were the most popular deities, and their statues were most revered while the statue of the stern Allah was almost neglected.

    Arab pagan poetry was mostly concerned with the beauty and grace of their women, and the glory of their tribal values in peace and war. And it was only in one predator tribe of Mecca that the evil custom of burying alive of the daughters prevailed.

    It was highly unusual for a man of pre-Islamic Arab society to have more than one wife in his house; and it is quite certain that polygamy was introduced and encouraged by the prophet after the revelation of Islam. Women were to produce as many Muslims as possible. This ultimately resulted in the degradation in the status of the married woman in the Islamic society. Whereas the pre-Islamic Arab custom allowed many looser forms of marriage on the matrilineal and matri-local tradition that gave the woman freedom and liberty as full human being, however the artificial rules of Islamic nikah reduced marriage to mere sexual and social slavery.

    The prophet of Islam, before prophethood, opposed the burying alive of the newborn daughters; he was eager to work for a woman and gladly married a divorced woman. The early Islam continued with most of the pre-Islam tribal traditions; there were no hijabs or veils for women of Madina; and at a later date only the nine wives of prophets were restricted in their social intercourse as their home was constantly full of visitors. However the prophet’s women sex-slaves were not restricted in any such manners.

    Indeed, the semi-transparent half-face- veil (hijab) was actually a very old custom originating in the Assyrian times, a status symbol and a mark of social distinction for the free women. The pre-Islamic pagan Arab woman of the cities often wore the fashionable semi-transparent half-face veil but the tribal women never did.

    Later, Islam added measures for “the preservation of modesty for women” -like casting down their eyes in public, concealing their breasts and jewellery and the likes. However, these restrictions were later extended by the followers of the prophet far beyond his original intentions as expressed in Koran, and remained more or less a permanent fixture of Muslim life thereafter.

    Later on, however, the insecurity of early Islam gradually added to the exclusion of women, and 100 years later, by the reign of the Abbasid Caliph Haroon ur Rashid, women became merely sexual toys and breeding machines; and as married women they were merely maid servants- mere man’s social appendages.

    Moreover, as female sex-slaves, women were freely bought and sold in open markets of all Islamic countries, and loaned, rented or bestowed as gifts to friends. The prophet himself bestowed women sex-slaves to his favourites. There was no limit to the number of slaves one could own; one of the companions of prophet Hazrat Zubair Ibn ul Arvan, for example, had 1000 men-slaves and 1000 women sex-slaves. Islam took the woman as the land tilled by the man where he spilled his seeds.

    The prophet himself took part or guided nearly 100 wars or raids or attacks for plunder. After him, his followers continued the offence. The fierce Islamic tribal Bedouins with centuries long experience of ruthless and cruel tribal warfare proved to be the worthwhile shock troops of Islam.

    After Iraq, Syria fell to the Islamic Empire in 634 CE. Despite surrenders, great massacres took place at many places; thousands of men were slaughtered and women and children sold into slavery; monasteries were ransacked, monks and villagers were slain and nuns were raped. After the conquest of Egypt, many of its towns were put to sword and their entire population wiped out. Great massacres also occurred in Cyprus and North Africa. The Roman province of Iraq, the Syrian province of Iran, and the conquered Iran brought hundreds of thousands of men-slaves, women sex-slaves, and the vast fertile lands of these once mighty and civilized countries where the women had been held in high respect e.g. the Manichaecian Iraq, the Pharonic Egypt and North African Civilizations.

    As in Egypt and Iran, wherever the conquering Islamic Bedouins armies went, they destroyed the local civilization’s cultures, imposed their Islamic tribal medievalism recklessly murdering men and degrading women to perpetual sexual slavery. In short, the Islamic tribal Bedouins and barbarians did the same to the surrounding higher civilizations what the Roman barbarians did to the highly civilized ancient Greeks. Meanwhile the Islamic Bedouins continued to raid and abduct the European women for Islamic slave markets during all these Islamic centuries. The conquest of Syria forced the conversion of thousands of Christian priests to Islam, who changed their religion but not their profession: they became the stern anti-feminine Islamic mullahs and not only continued their religious magic and rituals but also continued the essentially Christian medievalism under Islam.

    In short, as a result of these conquests, destructions and imposition of Islamic tribal medievalism, societies under the Islamic Empire went further than any other in their total exclusion of women from political power and social influence. Islamic legislation went far beyond anything the prophet had originally dreamed of in his tribal religiosity in cheating women of their rightful place in society and in matters of inheritance. Where originally the Koran gave women the right of inheritance, the Islamic mullah invented the legalized institution of Waqf- the religious foundation, to exclude the daughters and their descendents from inheritance.

    Though the Koran does give the right of inheritance to women, she continued to be a minor; usually uneducated needing a guardian in father, husband or the son. Indeed, the status of women in Islam is theoretically exalted but utterly deplorable in practice.

    Multiplying number of harems (residing place for the female sex-slaves), finally institutionalised under Caliph Al-Walid II, emphasized the inevitable degradation of womanhood under Islam. Haroon ur Rashid, the Islamic Caliph (ruler) had 2000 female sex-slaves, Caliph Mutwakkal had 4000 female sex-slaves; and every mullah, official or soldier of Islamic state had some men-slaves and women sex-slaves belonging to the conquered civilization nations.

    Not being allowed to learn, experience or think for herself, it is no wonder that there are hardly very few outstanding women in 1600 years of Islamic history, and those who by chance or by the force of the ancient pre-Islamic customs came into light or in the corridors of power were sooner or later eliminated on the orders of some pious and religious Islamic mullah.. Indeed, Islam’s violent anti-feminism have been as nefarious as Christianity’s burning of hundreds of thousands European women as witches in 15th, 16th and 17th century. The female hating instruments of the Islamic Empire, the mullahs and the Caliphs, continued to promote degradation of women under the formal and sordid Islamic legal code of Shariah, the final seal on the complete subjection of the female element.. The modern history of Islam is merely the continuation of the Islamic tribal medievalism, only the technology , phraseology and the façade is modern.

    II

    “Indian sub-continent suffered the humiliation and destruction under Islam, as did Africa. The Islamic General Mohammad Bin Qasim decimated great Buddhist and Hindu civilizations. Acting on the orders of a representative of the Islamic Caliph, Governor Hijaj Bin Yousaf (who was a deadly enemy of the Hazrat Ali and Hazrat Hussein’s family-some of whom have taken refuge under the Buddhist monarch Raja Dahir in Sindh), Mohammad Bin Qasim conquered the kingdom in 712 CE. His Islamic plunderers and looters demolished temples, shattered sculptures, plundered palaces and killed thousands.

    It took his Islamic army three days to slaughter the inhabitants of Debal, their women and children were taken into slavery. Later on he pardoned many prisoners and tried to establish a just rule of law which enraged the very Islamic and murderous Governor Hijaj Bin Yousaf; therefore Qasim again reverted to the Islamic barbarity and massacred between 6-16 thousands in Brahiminabad, their women and children were sent to Arab Islamic slave markets.

    This was the beginning of the destruction of the classical ancient Indian civilization, and start of the medieval age of Islamic darkness in India. The 11th century witnessed another Islamic murderer and plunderer, Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi an agent of Islamic Caliph, who utterly ruined the great Indian civilization and looted and plundered most of its wealth. Fifty thousand Hindus were massacred in just one of his attacks at Somnath; he invaded India more than 17 times. Thousands of Hindu men and women were sent to the Islamic Afghani slave markets. The highly cultured and civilized daughters of the noble Hindu families were sold to the illiterate, un-cultured and barbaric Afghanis for equivalent of just one Frank (Pound/Dollar) each. After every Afghani Muslim had four wives each, there were lots of surplus women left; to that the evil Islamic mullahs responded with an ingenious translation of Koranic verses proving that Allah allowed each Muslim to marry 18 women at a time along with an unlimited number of women as concubines.

    Soon the new military instruments of the Islamic Caliph, the Turks and the Moguls followed, decimated captured Delhi and turned whole of India into a grand open-air slave camp. Sultan Firoze Shah Tughlaq- an Islamic Turk ruler had 100,000 men-slaves and thousands of female sex-slaves in his harem; the pious Islamic Mongol (Mogul) Emperor Shahjehan had 15,000 female sex-slaves and concubines for his personal harem.

    Indeed, the Islamic Turk invaders and rulers did the same in India as they did in Armenia-the whole races of peoples were exterminated. (However, credit must be given here to the agnostic and secular-minded, humanist Mogul Emperor Akbar the Great who refused the title of “the King of Muslims” and preferred to be called “the shadow of God”- for his God, he declared (in accordance with the mind and language of his age), is the beneficial deity and protector of all-Hindus, Muslims and other races of humans and creatures alike. He gave up his faith in Islam and tried his genius in creating a pluralistic religion comprising traditions of all the prevalent religions and ideologies of India. He even invited the Christian Jesuits priests from Goa to his ideology-discussion-palace but could not swallow their childish Jesus-son-of-God myth).

    The medieval Islamic Empire of the Turkish Osmania Caliphate disappeared after Axis defeat in the World War I and with the rise of the Turkish secular hero Mustafa Kemal Pasha. However, it soon metamorphosed into the modern Saudi Islamic spiritual Empire. It is noteworthy that while the very Christian Holy Roman British Empire of the West required standing armies to control the bodies of men in all its colonies, the theocratic Saudi Islamic spiritual Empire of the East depended on the standing army of clerics-Mullahs and Imams-stationed in mosques to control the minds of men-the social, cultural spiritual and psychological control. It is true that Islam dismantled the old Arab tribal loyalties and some of its taboos and traditions; however it created a new tribe in the name of Islam with prophet himself as its chieftain and his family and tribe-Hashmis and Quresh acquiring an elevated and sacred status- a replacement of old medieval tribe with a new theocratic tribe.

    However, it essentially continued many of the ancient pagan rituals of worship as well as many of its old taboos and traditions. The tribal blood loyalties were replaced with the new tribal religious loyalties. At intellectual level Islam is merely the continuation of the medieval Jahiliya (Ignorance) in the holy garb of Islam- the Islamic Jahilia (the Islamic Medieval Ignorance). Modern Islam is, indeed, merely a continuation of that medieval tribal ignorance and mental backwardness.

    Since the advent of the Saudi oil, petrodollars started to support the Islamic extremist movements all over the world and continue to do so. The Saudi petrodollars have created thousands of Islamic centres for social and political control and propaganda- the mosques-all over the world; 1000 mosques were built in the USA only in just last few years. Islamic brainwashing and political propaganda continues in these mosques and madrassas-the religious schools, as well as through the Islamic newspapers, magazines, radios and televisions.

    All kind of extremist Islamic terrorism and fundamentalism emanates and flows from the ” Kernel of Evil- the Epicentre of the ugly Islamism-the Saudis”. For Allah of the Saudis makes submission to Islam obligatory for all humans. Those who refuse their submission to Allah or differ from the Saudi version of Islam are called the Satan’s party, and must be eliminated by Saudis or their paid and brainwashed zombies-the Muslims- called the Allah’s party.

    Saudi Arabia is in fact the worst example of Islamic medievalism, and mental, social backwardness. Slavery was legal in Saudi until 1960s when it was officially abolished on the personal request of the non-Muslim US President J F Kennedy! However, it continues in new names: the foreign female domestic servants-the private property of the Islamic Bedouin barbarians. Saudi petrodollars continue to support the extremist and fundamentalist mullahs, and continue to lure the Islamic states into the barbarity of the Islamic medieval Shariah laws, and the Saudis continue to spread Islamic mullah terrorism and Islamic theocratic totalitarianism all over the world.”

    Iran basically an Islamic spiritual colony, is the godfather of the Shiite Islamic terrorism,( Saudi Sunnis are an Islamic sect like the Christian Catholics while Shiites are like the Protestant Christians). This Allah’s government in Iran is the most evil religious state today. Torture, murder and Islamic absolutism- an Islamic version of Hitler’s Nazism, Stalin’s Communism and Mussolini’s Fascism combined. There were 5,195 political and religious executions only in 1983 alone! Few years ago a bill was presented in Iranian Parliament asking that in according with the tradition of Islamic prophet, marriage should be allowed with 9 years old girl child! Human rights are definitely not allowed to exist in the Islamic Iran, where according to the English language Radio Iran, the Holy Spirit of imam Khomeni hovers over Iran all the times. Women have been hanged on suspicion of sexual crimes. Even proved virgins have been sent to gallows, however, they are hanged only after being raped, as Iranian Islam does not allow hanging of virgins. Iran had used its oil money in the interest of Islamic revolutions all over the world, and continues to do so.

    Algeria, known for its Islamic civil war continues with its Islamic horrors. Islamic absolutism and totalitarianism is imposed with guns and slaughters in the interest of religion of Islam. Men are usually killed for their religio-political crimes while women are killed just for the crime of being a woman in an Islamic country. Thousands were islamically raped and more than 500 were killed only in 1993.

    Women have been killed for not wearing hijab (veil) or refusing to do so when imposed, for refusing to engage in Iranian-style temporary marriage, for being married to foreign men, and for working and living alone. The victims have been as young as 9 years and as old as 69 years. Women are often raped and tortured before being slaughtered. Thousands find themselves imprisoned in Islamic camps for no legitimate reasons. It is worth mentioning that women had a respectable status in society before the conquest of Algeria by Islam.

    Egyptians, heir to the great Pharonic and Alexandrian civilizations continue to suffer the chronic evil of Islam. Known for the miseries of hijab and female genital mutilation, Egypt is also a centre of child prostitution for the wealthy Saudi Islamic Bedouins. In Egypt, four out of five women are forced to wear some kind of hijab. Female genital mutilation is very common; up to 73% in Cairo and 95% in rural areas. In 1995 a shaikh (religious dignity) of Al-Azhar University Cairo issued a fatwa (the religious decree or bill), which reportedly announced the procedure pf Female Genital Mutilation as “laudable practice that does honour to women”; and stating that it was, a religious duty as important as praying to Allah.

    Sudan had a long history of Islamic conquest and repression. Islamic totalitarianism and barbarity continues to this day. Recently, Sudan was brutalized by the Saudi-backed Gen.Numeri’s Islamic fascism. In 1992 a religious decree-fatwa-was issued that gave justification to the military onslaught against the non-Muslims. Islamic barbarism and genocide continues in Darfur to this day.

    Indonesian Islamic army mass-murdered 200,000 East Timurian non-Muslims before East Timur got its independent. The country is known for its extreme religiosity, corruption, ethno-religious problems and Islamic extremism.

    Pakistan, an experimental laboratory of Islam, had turned into a horror. Notwithstanding the hundreds of thousands of rapes, abductions and murders under the watchful eyes of the very Christian administration of the Holy Roman British Empire at the time of religious division of the Indian sub-continent in 1947 by the Christian British Empire, when half a million people were forced to migrate, Pakistan has never made any certain move towards civilization.

    Pakistan is a centre of Islamic fundamentalism, extremism and terrorism. Pakistan’s very Islamic army invaded her province of East Pakistan in 1971, killing hundreds of thousands of Bengali Muslims and non-Muslims and raping half a million women ranging 9-69 years in age, in its attempt to create a half breed Pak-Bengal race which would be loyal to Islam and Pakistan. In 1974 Pakistan army invaded its province of Baluchistan resulting in similar calamities. In 1980 Islamist General Zia ul Haq introduced further islamization under the Saudi pressure for introduction of the medieval and tribal Islamic Shariah.

    Along with the compulsory public prayers, there were brutal Islamic laws for the very natural sexual acts and for the presumed blasphemy: the repressive Hudood Ordinance and the infamous Blasphemy laws. Thousands of innocent women continue to suffer under these and other Islamic fascist laws for mere allegations. Raped women had been sent to gallows for the crime of being raped. (Islamic Shariah is the only system of law, which punishes the victims: Fatemollah). Pakistani state has proved to be a willing and sinister instrument of the evil Islamic mullah fascism and terrorism. Pakistan created the hated Afghan Taliban and many other such organizations in Afghanistan. Similar organizations continue to flourish in Pakistan and try to create a totalitarian and fascist Islamic state.

    Despite all tall claims of fight against Islamic terrorism, the evil continues to flourish. Pakistan is undoubtedly a major source of supply for the Iraqi terrorism. Illicit drug trade continues with the blessings of the Islamic mullahs and the ISI (the Islamic Military Intelligence). There are Islamic prostitution centres in every Islamic city of the Islamic Pakistan where abducted and non-Muslim women are forced to suffer. The secular, liberal and rationalist intellectuals continue to suffer in Pakistan like the victims of the infamous Christian inquisition of medieval Europe. While the Christian churches burnt the heretics, Islamic mullahs get them indicted for Blasphemy.

    Eternal vigilance is the price of civilization.

    III

    While fundamentalism, superstition, ignorance, lack of human rights, female genital mutilations, forced seclusion of women within their houses and in their hijabs; religious extremism, fundamentalism, suicide-bombing and Islamic terrorism continue to be the hallmarks of the Muslim states and societies under the influence of the Saudi Islamic Spiritual Empire of the petro-dollars or Iranian Shiite area of influence under its Shiite oil-money; it is high time for the civilized world to wake-up from the stupor of multi-culturism and blind tolerance of the organized intolerance; for the disease is spilling herein already. Many of the acts of the Islamic states and societies, organizations and individuals are barbaric and medieval; the beheading of the innocent hostages, death penalties and murders for religious reasons; chopping of hands and feet; stoning to death of women for getting raped or on accusation of natural sexual intercourse; honor-killing on mere suspicion, suicide-bombings and acts of terrorism; these are indicative of a deep-seated disease. Murder on the name of a merciful Allah is mere hypocrisy.

    The rise of Saudi-sponsored extremist Islam is a danger to civilization everywhere. All extremist Muslims are potential terrorists and Allah’s soldiers. There should be no tolerance for this religiously organized intolerance against liberalism, human rights and women’s equal status and other manifestations of our civilization. Muslims in civilized and democratic societies should be required to take the oath of loyalty to the state and democracy. Political right to vote to those whose political loyalties are located in some far off desert is not only harmful but also suicidal for the state as well as for the very ideology and system of democracy. Political right to vote for those who wish to destroy the very system of democracy? Think again, Ladies and gentlemen.

    There is no place for optimism for a liberal Islam. Nearly all Islamic states and states have failed to appreciate the basic human rights of their people, their women and their minorities. Saudis and Emirates are the worst offenders; and are the financial godfathers of fundamentalism, extremism and Islamic backwardness everywhere.. Nearly every Islamic country is dangerous not only for itself but for the world as a whole. Pakistan, for example, after supplying Iran and with Korea with nuke-secrets continues to offer the dangerous technology; Vietnam and Brazil are the new customers. The nuke-terrorist Dr. Abdul Qadir Kahn is safe, well protected and facilitated by the State of Pakistan, with full impunity, of course.

    You civilized people! Yesterday you refused to acknowledge the dangers inherent in the rise of the Christian Nazi and Communist ideologies. Yesterday you supported Islamic Taliban even when they trampled rights of their women under their feet. Your refusal to confront militant Islam today may cost us more dearly than our individual lives-our cherished achievement -our civilization. Beliefs have consequences-the centrality of Islam to mental, social, intellectual and cultural backwardness; organized offences against women and minorities; fundamentalism, extremism and modern terrorism are impossible to deny. “Religions of peace and tolerance” are mere empty words.

    Islam is an organized crime against humanity!

  211. Can everybody please leave these morons (rishi_khujur, hara hara, et all) alone? Hopefully verbal diarrhea is a terminal disease.

  212. Anonymous (wow) : Can everybody please leave these morons (rishi_khujur, hara hara, et all) alone? Hopefully verbal diarrhea is a terminal disease.

    Oh I see. Once the pantie-brigade has abjectly failed in logic, its back to the ad hominems. After every one of their bizarre theories has been demolished (Brahmins single-handedly dismantled India’s trade, Guptas & Cholas not ‘really Hindu’ … the biscuit being “Vasugupta was a Kashmiri king killed by Brahmins as he was pro-Kayastha”) its back to the name calling. How convenient. And sad.

    Its also interesting to note that when toon characters like Wanderer post page after page after sorry page of utter drivel and bizarre anti-Hindu theories, liberally soaked in terms like “hand up a$$” and “wet dreams” and the “color of bowel movements”, the pantie brigade observes with mute interest. However, when Rishi posits important points about current developments in India, or I demolish drivel with diligently selected and presented points, the pantie-walee brigade goes berserk.

    Anonymous, whoever you may be, articulation is not a terminal disease. Wanderer merely confessed to an interest in shoving his hand up his a$$. Where you have squarely positioned your head … that is deadly.

    A nice selection of Islamic pictures for you, as foretaste of what’s in store for most of us in India in the not too distant future. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_pictures/7180575.stm

  213. Diganta Jena,

    Thanks for the excellent post on Orrissa. You may be interested in the folowing development :

    NGO MAOIST LINK IN KANDHAMAL
    =============================

    http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/story.aspx?id=NEWEN20080038179&ch=1/10/2008 5:22:00 PM

    Thursday, January 10, 2008 (Kandhmal)
    “The Orissa government will inquire into allegations by Hindu outfits that there is an unholy nexus between some NGOs operating in riot-hit Kandhamal and the Maoists and that the ultras did play a role in the communal strife.

    This is not the first time that the state government has invoked the Maoist bogey to divert attention from the real issues. But the NGO sector has welcomed the idea and hopes the truth will replace myths.

    The police suspect that the man who was a part of the mob that attacked the Hindu colony of Brhmanigaon last month may have been a Maoist.

    The armed attack on a police station, the recovery of weapons from nearby villages and Brahmanigaon’s proximity to a well known Naxal zone have led to the suspicion that Maoists were behind the retaliatory attack by Christians.

    ” We suspect they had a hand and in fact the attack in Brahamanigaon could have been engineered by them,” said Tarun K Mishra, Home Secretary, Orissa.

    The Vishwa Hindu Parishad has been alleging that certain Christian establishments and NGOs operating in Kandhmal and Gajapati districts had links with Maoists and were diverting foreign funds to Leftist ultras just to keep them on their side.

    ”Two NGOs working in our village were behind the attack. They have been publicly saying that have links with naxalites and will drive away all Hindus with their support,” said Jogeswar Patra, Brahmanigaon.

    The state government has ordered a police investigation into the NGO-Maoist links and hopes to include this as part of the Judicial probe. But NGOs say every time there is social unrest they are the first targets. An inquiry, they hope, will clear all doubts.

    ”If there are some naxal-led activities which are found to be happening in those areas and if government suspects an NGO nexus, I think it’s high time that this should be absolutely unraveled,” said Jagadanand, Prominent NGO Leader & Secretary, CYSD.

    The Maoists, in a recent press release, accused the Sangh Parivaar and the state government of dragging them into the picture only to hide the real culprits. And as each side accuses the other the truth gets hazier.”

    So much so for the hollow and vapid pantie-walee pontificating and posturing earlier on (“I think this is a caste issue …. Hmmmm).

  214. Ah, I see. Maoist terrorists are murdering Hindus leaders, and driving out poor Hindu tribals in a concerted manner from Orissa. There is immense pain and misery in this. However, to the laconic pantie-walee, ’tis but ‘sh1t’.

    This is why I said that inspite of crocodile tears shed by the pantie-brigade, at heart they are really a bunch of frustrated, mean and stolid egoists.

    Has the anonymous pantie-walee pulled out his head yet? If he does, he will see more than sh1t. I think he’ll keep his head where it is. He likes his sh1t too much. Bon appetit.

  215. Hi Hara hara bom bom,
    You write very well. Hats off to your trenchant logic, spectrum of knowledge and stellar debating skills !! 😀

    I would like to request a brilliant thinker like yourself to please, please discuss and work synergistically with like-minded Hindu well-wishers like Rishi Khujur, Yourfan2, Shourideb, Hujur, Sunil, Kannan and myself to improve the bleak situation on the ground in India.
    We may win the debating battles on blogs but we are on the verge of losing the real war being fought elsewhere.

    If you have any ideas on how I can help make a difference on the ground (in India), please advise me.
    -DJ

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