The Terror Of Hypocrisy

136 Comments

What Sadhvi Pragya Thakur and Lt. Colonel Purohit have done (if they were indeed involved in the heinous attacks they have been accused of) is that in addition to dragging the name of the One and True God Prabhuji into their agenda of hate,  they have handed to the apologists of Jihadi terror, Pakistani media and the Arundhati-Sabrang crowd a Diwali-and-Christmas-gift-for-all-eternity-rolled into-one which will keep on giving for years on end.

The involvement of Hindu right-wing elements in planned acts of urban mayhem will now be used, ad nauseum for years to come to support the central thesis of their arguments—-all acts of terrorism in India are done by Hindus and blamed on innocent Muslims and on Pakistani agents. The presence of an armed force officer in the list of accused is the proverbial icing on the cake, providing great potential to be spun as the shadow of a darker government conspiracy, sure to throw Arundhuti Roy into paroxysms of delight and the Arabic media, which once accused the Indian and Jewish government of having triggered the tsunami, into absolute hate-filled delirium.

For me however what has been illuminating, though not by any means surprising is how the drama of the Malegaon blasts has exposed, once again, the hypocrisy of both the extreme ends of the political spectrum—the Left wing/Islamic terror apologists on one hand and the Hindu Right wing on the other.

When Islamic youth are arrested for acts of terror, the Left wing/liberals/apologists will 1) take to the streets, sign petitions and froth themselves into a frenzy refusing to even acknowledge the fact that those accused may actually be guilty 2) point out the holes in police procedure and the government case against those arrested 3)strongly speak out against the “trial by media” whereby the press labels the “innocents” as Islamic terrorists 4) implicitly justify these heinous acts by repeating words like “Gujarat”, “Babri Masjid”, “marginalization”, “institutionalized bias”.

However when Hindus are arrested for similar acts of urban warfare, they 1) stay inside their homes and make no presumptions of innocence 2) are totally comfortable with the weakness of the government case and police ineptness or at  the very least do not equate it with a setup 3) are silent with regards to the “trial by media” and actively participate in it, 4) provide no justifications of the act.

Similarly when an Islamic hand is discovered, the Hindu right wing will 1)castigate the Muslim community for not sufficiently condemning the terrorist attacks, as if the entire community is to be held responsible for the acts of a few 2) label a person as “guilty” the moment he is arrested.

However when the accused are members of the Hindu militant right, they 1) do not expect Hindus to condemn their brethren with the same shrillness that is expected of Muslims 2) go to great lengths to point out that the Sadhvi and the Colonel have just been “accused” and should be considered innocent till proven guilty 3) accuse the government of setting up these people as part of a large conspiracy re-using ironically the same liberal rhetoric that I talked about previously, albeit in a diametrically opposite context, 4) point out weaknesses in the official case against those arrested displaying a depth of analysis and Sherlockian powers of induction not displayed when someone of another faith is arrested, 5) justify the acts as a token “reaction” to the deluge of Islamic terror and 6) use lines like “But then something happens in a non descript town in the interiors of one State, where one bomb explodes and a few people died” as if the fact that the town is “non-descript” and the people killed were “few” makes the crime any less important than it is and that makes the press attention on such incidents proof of a hidden agenda.

If there is any silver lining from the recent incidents is that it has shown, that the investigating authorities, inept as they may be,  target the majority community in the same way as they do minorities (rightly or wrongly) and this should conclusively demonstrate that there exists no deep-rooted, government-mandated bias against Muslims, a bias that has the implicit support of  the majority Hindus. Of course, given the ossified, hate-filled perspectives of the Azmis and the Hashmis and the Roys and the Setalvads and their agenda of slandering India, I am sure that this is not something they would like to highlight in their rantings.

[Any comments that I consider hateful will be removed without explanation. Here’s a simple guide. If you comment is “XYZ is a religion of hate. Here are some quotations” then forget it. If it’s about conversions, through population explosion, then also forget it. We have had many of these discussions before. Please also do not copy paste material/articles from elsewhere. Keep things civil. Thank you.]

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136 thoughts on “The Terror Of Hypocrisy

  1. Great Bong

    Commendable exercise to expose hypocrisy but it falls short on facts and logic. I will get your observation on my blog later but first let me point out that there is a fundamental distinction in recent terror arrests be it bashir by gujarat, atif in delhi or peerbhoy in mumbai. The police were very specific on who did what where and when. We are yet to get a similar accounting of facts on Malegaon yet we have devoted headlines to this for 2 weeks despite in the middle of this serial blasts ripping Assam. Where is the perspective or parity in reactions ?
    Hence my observation that the media has lost is perspective with one incident in a non-descript town. That observation would be a rationalization if it said “its ok to have blasts in small towns especially if they are muslim majority”. Unfortunately you have mischaracterized it as a rationalization when it is merely an observation on how all perspective has been lost in the reportage on this case. If they are guilty let them hang for it but let us not lose perspective on the larger war on terror that remains and let us also not mischaracterize this incident to be something it is not.

  2. @Yossarin: Yes I wonder why the adjective “non-descript” is in any way relevant. I wonder how the specificity of the Press is in any way relevant to the facts here. Perspective or parity in reaction? Just because there are other incidents of terrorism, the press should ignore this story? Give it lesser air-time than 2 weeks? Because the town is insignificant? Pardon me but I see here an attempt to trivialize the whole thing.

    In case you believe the word “rationalization” misrepresented your view, I have changed the word “rationalization” and made the sentence into the following to show exactly what I found objectionable about your stance.

    5)use lines like “But then something happens in a non descript town in the interiors of one State, where one bomb explodes and a few people died” as if the fact that the town is “non-descript” and the people killed were “few” makes the crime any less important than it is and that makes the press attention on such incidents proof of a hidden agenda

    Also your larger point as to why the Om was used and why IBN should be sued—-I have personally seen Indian channels use Urdu writing (as a symbol for presumably Islam). Where was your outrage then? And please spare us the “These were not committed in the name of Hinduism”. They were committed by people who wear saffron robes and are associated with the Hindu right. If people who belong to SIMI commit crimes in the name of Islam then people who belong to nutcase Hindu organizations, by the same token, commit crimes in the name of Hinduism. The people who attacked the Parliament didnt send a letter invoking Allah—–so was that crime not an example of Islamic terrorism?

  3. Dada i am not saying that they (sadhvi and purohit )are innocent but thae way media is jumping into conclusion that ther are guilty is not quite accepable. ramember the the shankaracharya of kanchi kamkoti peeth. During the jaylalita regime in tamilnadu they aressted shankaracharya is sankaraman murder case. media presented him as murderer. The Champion magzine of Secular media OUTLOOK (also favorate magzine od messers Arundhati roy and her clan)publish a Cover story on shankaracharya confession. but ultimatly the case proved false. i am not saying the case is same here but atleast wait a bit for the concrete evidence.

  4. @DJ,

    Without going into the Shankaracharya Case, if you believe that whoever the courts let go due to lack of evidence is released because they are innocent, then I hope you will also accord the same privilege to people like SAR Geelani.

    Let me repeat. If you believe that the press do not jump the gun when labeling SIMI activists as terrorists even when the case against them is not watertight and they are yet to be convicted in a court of law, then you should extend the same privilege to the press when those arrested are Hindus.

  5. Acutally i feel its time Hindus stopped being defensive. This was bound to happen and is a natural reaction to the inaction of the government and pseudo secularists towards growing muslim fundamentalism and islamic fanatics, who are steadily spreading their tentacles in the whole country.
    And whose opinions are we thinking about? People like shabana azmi, teesta setalvad, jyoti punwani et al are so biased that they will defend anything to do with islamic fundamentalism. These pseudo secularists have closed minds and their perverted logic prevemts them from accepting and acknowledging facts, so whats the point in trying to reason with them.
    The only solution towards ending this cycle of violence is to tackle the menace of muslim fundamentalism through very strong measures.

  6. sorry to be a spelling nazi, but I think its spelt as ‘hypocrisy’.

    How can the Arundhatis and the band of jholawalas provide any justification for the actions of these people. It is their own actions towards jihadi terror that has led to this current situation. It seems that the UPA is using it to further their own political ends. There have been multiple narco/brain mapping tests of the sadhvi which have yielded nothing. Instead we had reports that the sadhvi used her yogic powers to defeat the test! unless the government takes some actions towards tackling all kinds of terror, more and more people will start dishing out retribution. have you seen ‘a wednesday’ ?

  7. Thanks. Corrected. However Anonymous Coward, your comparison with the protagonist with “A Wednesday” is flawed. Whereas in the movie, the “terrorist” was killing the actual terrorists and not a single “innocent” (this was precisely his central thesis), here they are killing innocents. Islamic terrorists use your justification —that the government is doing nothing to tackle the terror being dealt upon Muslims everyday (not something I accept but its what the Jihadis will tell you) and what they are doing is a reaction.

    Its sad to see that killing of innocents is justified as “retribution” as you have done. If the Sadhvi had gone and done what she did (presuming she did it) to Dawood or the Tiger then yes it would be like “A Wednesday”.

  8. really, now idiots like Roy will start their exercise of ‘India sucks’ with renewed vigour..already, the spotlight is moving away from the SIMI and IM terrorists..media is going overdrive with the Malegaon suspects..If they are proved guilty, they should be given the same punishments as the other terrorists..But, now am not so sure if there’s any progress in the case of those muslim terrorists..

  9. While we are on the subject of hypocrisy , what greater hypocrisy can there be when anything even remotely associated with oppression of minorities by the Hindu masses makes news, but the Kashmiri Pundits, who have been actually deracinated,and killed in large numbers, doesn’t nowadays . Does the sole responsibility of the media is to act as a watch dog for the minorities alone ? Does being in the majority automatically warrants of not being at the receiving end ? Kashmiri pundits, who ethnically,culturally and religiously as well, belong to Kashmir are living like refugees in their own country, but I guess that is old news . What about the Bodo’s in Assam ? They are facing a similar situation, and if the Bangladeshi plan pan’s out, we will have another Kashmir at our hand . But even that is not good enough . Because a) they are from the north-east , which is not deemed worthy of attention and b) they are hindus practicing Brahma Dharma . What do the Teesta Setalvad’s and Arundhati Roys’s have to say about this ? All I want to hear is a spade, being called a spade .

  10. Very well summed up. Agree with you about our inept investigating agencies, never took them for their word when they caught those boys in Delhi recently, and now I doubt if the people they have caught now, Sadhwi Pragya and the Army offices, are really involved in acts of terrorism. When the Police needs a culprit they need a culprit… so they catch any plausible or implausible suspect.

  11. GreatBong,

    You appear too concerned about what might happen in future. Unfortunately everything is reduced to the level of Hindu-Muslim.

    If an ordinary guy goes to police station, his FIR is not registered whether he is a Hindu or a Muslim. Even if he is not involved, he is kept detained for days, tortured and his family made to pay by their nose.

    Of course, if its a high-profile guy–Maulana or Sadhvi, the treatment differs. Show me the face and I will show you the rule, that’s how law is applied. For the VIPs, its different.

    You may reduce the level of debate on your blog to this level because, if you are ever falsely implicated in anything, you will also have a hundred voices speaking for you–after all, you are a VIP blogger.

    You are an educated person. Still, you write when ‘Islamic youth’ are arrested. They are all Indian youth, who happen to be born in a Muslim house.

    Were you offered a choice to be born in a household? In Jamia case, it was an ‘encounter’ that’s why civic groups took position, else nobody speaks up for terror suspects.

    Even lawyers refuse to fight their cases though it is unconsitutional. You are either not aware of that or prefer to keep your eyes closed.

    Of course, right-wing fores like Bajrang Dal and VHP are not so innocent either. Demolition of Babri Masjid was an act of terrorism and so was the recent terror in Orissa during anti-Christian violence.

    First, terror then crime based on region and religion. And keep taking it futher: Nithari accused could be a Sikh rapist and Arushi killers could be Nepali murders or Punjabi killers.

    Keep inventing and branding…after all, you are Great bong.

  12. Greatbong,
    What you have summed up is dividing the critics of terrorism into the left wing and the fundamentalist right. Now the objective of each of these are different. While we all know how the hardcore Hindu fundamentalists are supposed to react when we have a case of terrorism in hand, be the terrorist be “Islamic” or “Hindu”, the Left wing however have a totally different motive. They look for votes in “minority”. And that my friend is the whole agenda.
    In a sense you can call the Hindu right wing “true” to their words and subsequent deeds, coz at least we understand what they have done and why. I am not supporting their actions mind you, merely stating that we know they are capable of such acts. But Left Wing “secular” intelligentsia while putting on the robe of secularism are two faced people. And that’s where people can be influenced and some start taking advantages. The media will do better to control this behavior, and keep the facts to facts, than showing any form of bias to any religion, which I don’t think they do. Not always any way.

  13. Actually the worse thing Pragya Thakur et al can have done is caused a bomb blast and killed several people.

    Perhaps the point is that all accused should be presumed innocent until proven guilty, people should not be pilloried by the media, one should not push for guilt by association, and we should relook at all this narco-analysis deal.

    There is a great example by Walter Murphy when he was trying to convince students at a conversvative Souther University that the Patriot Act was a bad idea, and what clinched his argument was when he said “how would you feel if Hillary Clinton were president”

    The only good thing that might emerge from this is a greater respect for civil liberties, since now we know that draconian acts like POTA can be used against people other than Vaiko.

  14. ” If there is any silver lining from the recent incidents is that it has shown, that the investigating authorities, inept as they may be, target the majority community in the same way as they do minorities (rightly or wrongly) and this should conclusively demonstrate that there exists no deep-rooted, government-mandated bias against Muslims, a bias that has the implicit support of the majority Hindus. ”

    Sorry dude, have to differ with you on this one… Please remember that the Govt. is essentially is a Political Party or a Coalition thats in power at that point in time. And it is this Political Party that controls the Investigating Authorities.
    And no Political Party (mebbe except for the BJP to an extent) is a pro-majority or a pro-minority.
    All Political parties are only Pro-themselves. And they will use their Investigating Authorities for only and only this cause and not to provide justice to any one.

    So if the Investigating Authorities have reached a certain stage in investigation, then its not due to their abilities but due to the Tacit and Implicit OK from the powers-to-be. No Investigating Authority can ever act independent of the Political Party that is in power.

    And the Political Party in power in center and in Maharashtra is the same. It knows that there is an impending election. It knows that the economic condition in the country is pathetic. It knows it has lost a lot of recent state elections for exactly this reason. It knows that the opposition is going to screw them on a lot of issues in the upcoming elections. So what does it need to do ? To throw some muck back on the opposition.
    Thats what you are seeing happening here in the Malegaon investigations, Plain and Simple Election Politics, thats all… Unbiased Investigation is all bull crap.

  15. @greatbong

    apparently lives lost in “non-descript” towns have no value,otherwise our headlines would be filled with tribals in jharkhand and chattisgarh being killed by maoists,jharkhand and a complete lack of govt rule in manipur,i bet you 500 bucks that not even 10% of people in a major indian metro would heard of naxalism or can even name all north-eastern states

  16. @GB: Terrorism should be condemned at all costs…be it Moslem or Hindu…killing innocents in the name of religion…retribution…indigestion…whatever…is the gretest sin.

  17. Hey,
    You’ve brilliantly put together some of the thoughts and opinions of a large number of people who are tired of watching news channels and newspapers flash the same news feed over and over again, with only an increase in the number of times the words terrorists and bombs and hindu appears.
    One wonders, after reading your post, whether our top media personalities and alleged world-class journalists (i’m not even getting into the politicians and policy makers) have all sold their souls to the highest bidder when they continue in their biased reporting and political/personal agendas.

  18. Hypocrisy is everywhere in India. Terrorists are terrorists and that means anyone working against the interests of the country is guilty. But what about this-

    It would seem that a group of extreme Hindu nationalists, exasperated by the Government’s failure to control jihadi terror decided that the Muslims must get a taste of their own medicine. The inspirational shankaracharya supposedly requisitioned the services of the like-minded Purohit who he had got to know during his own missions in J&K. Using the Military Intelligence network and, may be, funds, he contacted jihadi groups to persuade them to engage in friendly fire, i.e. bomb their own community. This filmi plot did not succeed and Purohit had to settle for buying RDX from the “enemy”. With the assistance of a retired Territorial Army officer, a collector of antique arms and, of course, Pragya’s bike, the group killed six innocent Muslims in Malegaon.

    http://www.dailypioneer.com/134801/Who’s-the-new-Mogambo.html

  19. whoops … my bad. all comparisons with ‘a Wednesday’ were only in the realm of taking the law into one’s hands. didn’t realise what a jack-ass arguement it made without mentioning innocent victims. even so, whether the victims are innocent or not, people talking the law in their own hands will lead to anarchy. the government seriously needs to get its act in order.

  20. Good post GB – the big issue re India’s fight against terror is that all of our personal experiences with law enforcement agencies lead us to a situation where we have a complete lack of faith in them. Hence we are prepared to believe the worst about them – and feel that Muslim terrorists like Afzal and Hindu terrorists like the Sadhvi are innocenet even when the cops accuse them of the most henious crimes.

    We need to have a speedy and credible process for trying terrorists – and a policy of zero tolerance – viz. anyone involved in committing or aiding terror must get a mandatory death penalty. It galls me that the 1993 Bombay blast accused have after 15 years still in the early stages of an appeals process, and that many of those convicted have been given such minor sentences that they will be free more or less at the same time as those who were found to be innocent.

  21. @GB
    As you said in an earlier post of yours — “Bomb blast is an law and order problem for the government”. Nothing else, nothing more.

    Some people just don’t get it. Unfortunately this “some” includes media, governemnt and the “aam aadmi”.

  22. Hypocrisy comes naturally to religious nuts (of all religions), just the other day I saw one fellow from VHP saying that even if these guys are involved in blast it should be seen as a “reaction” to Muslim terror and hence can not be called terrorism. Impeccable logic.

  23. Also the fact that there is a thing called “Hindu Terror” was apparent to people who work on the ground (My friend who is journalist with PTI told me this a couple of years ago, I didn’t believe him at that time). Nanded, Kanpur blasts were never investigated properly, and somehow media also lost interest. These guys want to turn India into another Iraq with rival groups bombing the nation towards anarchy. God (if he/she exists) bless us.

  24. @Adnan: I totally second your view. The problem is that today’s youth (including me) & our leaders are confused about what they see of our country…..as India or as Bharat or as Hindustan. Once this confusion is solved and people have a clearer idea then only one can decide who they want to replace ‘they’ with & ‘us’ with. Whether it is Hindu-Muslims or terrorist-common man/innocent people. Also, there is a fashion emerging today of blaming the authorities/system on every wrong that has been done. Although this is true in most of the cases, it is also true that people are also part of this system. (Most)People (including me) always expect something from the country without giving much thought to what they can give back to the country. If this problem is not addressed immediately, who knows, we may see article 370 in some other parts of the country as well.

    MY OPINION: This whole sadhvi issue (& the Malegaon blasts) MAY be a part of a larger conspiracy involving the some political parties. But I have a feeling that if this is true, then the UPA govt. had an inkling of this (when this happened) & is only now that they are trying to solve the case (through the Maharashtra ATS) because of the coming elections. By capturing a Hindu priestess they are trying to remind people that they are secular, ahead of the general election. Instead of preventing it earlier they are doing it now.

  25. @Adnan: I dont see how you presume that I am the one doing the labeling here. I agree whole-heartedly to your basic assertion that it’s poor people who dont have a chance under the Indian legal system. My point in the post, should you choose to read it again, was not about labels but about the commonality in reaction between people of different political persuasions. And oh by the way, after all the ranting against labels, it was indeed ironic to see that the blog link you provided as your blog is called anindianmuslim.com. Whoa ! And I am the one doing the labelling?

    @R: So your point is that it serves the designs of the Congress to have the Sadhvi arrested because it is seeking minority votes? So why did the same government have all those SIMI activists arrested?

    @An Ideal Boy: Absolutely. The Malegaon investigations again shows why terrorism needs to be treated as a law-and-order problem dehyphenated from idealogy.

  26. Since Yossarin is away from the Net for a few days and wont be able to post a comment himself, I am copy pasting a mail that he sent me regarding my comment. With his permission.

    Yossarin says:

    Thanks for the reply will respond to the comment on your blog later,
    let me reply ovr email right now from my mobile.

    On the qn of perspective it is not about airtime it is about
    judgement. When there are no new facts to report, when there is no one
    going on the record to float theories based on leaks and then to give
    those leaks legitimacy by reporting as if they were facts is where my
    friend the media has lost its perspective.

    On whether “om” shud have been used:
    You cant settle this with oversimplifications let us establish a
    ground rule first. Any adjective to describe terror should tell us
    something about it what motivates it OR who its targets are OR what
    its modus operandi is.
    Applying the adjective Islamic Terror to acts of Terror by the iMuj
    was germane for the iMuj justified its acts very explicitly and
    unapologetically with quotes from the Quran. Thus describing it as
    Islamic Terror tells me that its a brand of Terrorism that has sought
    moral sanction from islam.
    Applying this yardstick to the attack on parliament is not germane for
    the attackers were anti-Indian and from Pakistan. The right adjective
    for dec 13th would be “anti-Indian” or “pakistan sponsored” terrorism.

    Applying the adjective Hindu terrorism to Malegaon is inappropriate
    because it doesnt tell me anything about Abhinav Bharat. A reading of
    its manifesto should make it clear that there are pt no pot references
    to hindu text or scriptures nor hindutva. At best abhinav bharat can
    be described as any “ultra nationalist” outfit that believed in
    permanent war mongering. Hence the right adjective for Malegaon would
    be “ultra nationalist” terror or “anti-muslim” terror for clearly the
    targets were muslim.

    My outrage or lack of it is irrelevant.

    The point of debate here is whether the adjectives applied are
    intellectually sound and honest. In this case they are not.

    You do have a valid point on when terror should have been described as
    islamist or not but you ignore that no one to date has described any
    acts of terror as “muslim” terror. Thats a big difference.

    I can see if you are objective is to appear politically correct the
    argument in your blog. But if you want to make an intellectually sound
    argument you will see the distniction in the responses to Malegaon as
    opposed to other incidents.

  27. @Yossarin:

    You start of by saying that by applying your definition of what a valid adjective is the attack of December 13 should be labelled as Pakistani terror and not Islamic terror. The problem is that most people do not go by your logic of labeling. The CNN-IBN/NDTV people, whom I presume you have little regard for, would label December 13, Mumbai bomb blasts and all acts committed by members of SIMI, Lashkar, HuJI et al as “Islamic” terror regardless of whether they explicitly sanctioned their act by Islam through the sending of a pamphlet. The reason CNN-IBN would give and so would I while labelling these incidents as Islamic terror would be to go and look at the ideologies of these organizations and find a common thread. That is they represent a militant version of Islam and that with names that translate to Soldiers of Islam, this inference is not a huge leap in logic.

    Abhinv Bharat is ultra-nationalist you say. While that is true, it is worth noting what AB means by nation. Its definition is of a Hindu nation that is as you say based on “persistent war mongering”. You also agree that it is “anti-Muslim”. Now consider the manifestos of Indian Mujahideen, LET and assorted other organizations. They too are all “ultra-nationalist” except their nationalism is the concept of the greater Muslim brotherhood where all minorities have been reduced to a “protected” status. This is a concept of nationalism they are willing to obtain through permanent war-mongering also known as Jihad. They are all anti-Hindu. In this context, I fail to see the difference in the stated goals and objectives of AB and IMu as well as their operational ideology except that their notions of nation and the people they hate are mirror-images to each other.

    I dont think there is a big difference between the word “Muslim” and the word “Islamic” as adjectives for terror. I am sure if Ms. Roy was here, she would say both of them are equally offensive. The reason why the word “Hindu” is used is because there is nothing I can think of that corresponds to “Islamic” in Hindu terms. The word “Hindutva” as an adjective before terrorism may have been used. However Hindutva is a political concept brought into prominence by BJP/Jana Sangh and its use would have been opposed by people, perhaps even you, as an attempt to make an implicit association between terror and the BJP.

    As to why blasts in an “insignificant” town where few were killed is getting so much prominence, let me hazard a few guesses. I am no big fan of Sardesai or Ghosh or Dutt but I would presume that the reasons I am about to provide are more likely than that Sardesai is a black-heart that beats only to an Italian tune.

    1. Terrorism carried on by Jihadi cells is old news. It’s sad to say but people have become used to it. On the other hand, terror cells that are made up of Hindus is not. It is novel. And hence it gets attention. Maybe if organizations like AB become more powerful and carry on more such blasts, they will stop getting attention. Remember that one of the reason IMu sends those mails to channels before triggering the bombs are to make sure they stay in the news by doing something that has not been done before.

    2. The Sadhvi, a woman with a passion of motorcycles, is a striking character in more ways than one. Its only natural that the press and the public are immensely interested in her.

    3. Lt. Col Purohit. Can you imagine the hysteria that would have engulfed the airwaves if a member of the Armed forces would have been suspected to be a member of IMu? The excreta would surely have hit the rotating blades in that case.

    From the tone of your comments, I see that you assume my objective is to be politically-correct. No it is not. It is to be balanced and non-partisan.

  28. You are right, Greatbong. I am sorry for misunderstanding a few lines. Regarding my blog, I had to start it just because there were lots of voices that Muslims don’t speak out enough.

  29. What is saddening here is that the media is crucifying the army repeatedly in some form or the other.
    There are innumerable discussions going on, so-called “experts” are saying that the army is slowly turning into a sympathizer of the “majority” etc.
    Let us not forget that the Indian army has an excellent track record. It has a history of being non-interfering with the democratic process, non-partisan and neutral. Compare this with a host of other nations (especially our wonderful neighbour) where the army has a history of bringing about regime changes and overthrowing democratically elected governments.
    A few black sheep must not result in the army being labelled as partisan or as a sympathizer of the majority community.

  30. @Greatbong,

    Lets say that the ATS is investigating independently. Even then this is not abt only Minority votes for the Cong… Its abt Majority votes too. Its abt inflicting a permanent damage on the Hindutva ideology of BJP, by getting the Majority community to cast doubts on the true intentions of BJP. Its abt declaring that BJP and other right wing organizations want to take HIndutva to an extreme direction. One of violence and terrorism. And Cong wants the Majority community to condemn this.

    If Cong would not have arrested the SIMI activists earlier there would have been no doubt that BJP wud have escalated this as extreme Minority appeasement and then Cong wud have got screwed by the Majority community in the elections. So Cong had to arrest those activists to keep the Majority votes with them.
    And with the Malegaon investigations, once again Cong is looking at getting the Majority community to get itself detached from the violent form of Hindutva.

    By arresting SIMI activists who were indicted for terrorism, the Cong did not really risk losing the Minority votes. On the contrary, a number of Islamic religious organizations were informally coerced to come out and condemn Islamic terrorism and also issue a fatwa against it.

    So while the Cong is desperately trying to link BJP to Malegaon blasts and Abhinav Bharat, BJP is busy trying to distance itself from Abhinav Bharat and also ABVP. I watched this talk show last night on NDTV, where the BJP leader, Mr Chari, clearly disowned the ABVP (Pragya Thakur was once an active member of ABVP) and also disowned Abhinav Bharat. He was very categorical in saying that the Youth Wing of BJP is Yuva Morcha and they have no links with ABVP and also that the true Abhinav Bharat was started by Savarkar/Golwalkar which was then disbanded and restarted recently for the purpose of terrorism.

    So u can see that even the BJP knows that they can lose Majority community votes if they are linked to these votes. The Cong meanwhile is trying to make the best of this game with the cards that they have been handed.

  31. A minor correction in the last para of my post – So u can see that even the BJP knows that they can lose Majority community votes if they are linked to these votes*.

    *It should be blasts instead votes.

    So u can see that even the BJP knows that they can lose Majority community votes if they are linked to these blasts.

  32. @Greatbong’s reply to Yossarin,

    Its important to note that no Hindu Organization came out to claim responsibility for the Malegaon blasts a-la-Indian Mujahideeen …. No emails were sent to the News organizations prior to the blasts. So seeking attention was definitely not the motive in these blasts.

    Infact great care was taken to keep the involvement of Abhinva Bharat a secret. So the claim that AB might become big and carry out more blasts and then they will stop getting attention by the media, well this claim is contradictory.

    Because whatever be their true motive, AB did not seem to carry out these blasts to get attention. So gaining or losing attention in the media wudnt have bothered them.

    On the contrary, the motive of AB cud have been that by keeping their participation a secret, the authorities wud assume naturally that these blasts were carried out by Islamic terrorists. And the motive attributed cud be that the Islamic terrorists wanted to create communal tensions by planting a bomb in Muslim localities. The Islamic terrorist organizations wud then be criticized for killing their own brethren and this wud weaken support for them among the Indian Muslims.

  33. GreatBong,

    You have espoused two viewpoints in the post. Both viewpoints are valid at this time. Until the case is decided in a court of law (with all sundry appeals), both viewpoints will be valid.

    So, we live in a sort of limbo, not knowing which is the truth. The real tragedy is that we will live in this limbo for a very very long time (10 years were required for the final conclusion of the Bombay blasts case). The human brain cannot suspend judgement for so long. So we use substitutes for guilt. If a person is arrested, he is perceived guilty. If the police get custody, he is perceived more guilty, no bail and the perception of guilt deepens etc.

    Until the justice system reforms itself, this situation will persist.

    However, I am hopeful that now there is a political will to speed up the justice system. Maybe something will come out of that.

  34. You know I always suspected Dr. Shiva’s evil Shiv Shakti organisation; playing both sides against each other. Prabhuji’s name dragged into this only cemented that piercing insight of mine. I can already see a pair of withered arms cstroking a snow white tabby cat…..

  35. aah….how i wish discussions in our parliament were half as rational/sensible as here…..and so were the ppl their…..

  36. I guess the game is pretty simple. Basically Congress government sucks at managing muslim terrorists because they are way too smart and professional at creating a mayhem. The hindu outfits are a bunch of idealogues, amateurish ways to cause mass destruction has landed them in trouble with the Maharshtra ATS who want to gobble them as easy pickings. Otherwise how could a police force, with no balls to arrest Raj thankre go all over the country to arrest terrorists? No sir they know they are behind some simple braiwashed people whom they can implicate wthout any problems.It will also give the COngress and its associated jhollawallas, NDTV journalists and Outlook editors plenty of fodder to chew and cod and spit on to the Hindu fundamentalist BJP in the coming elections. Quick wins did we hear?

  37. @Savita Bhabhi’s lover: The reason why the police can arrest the Sadhvi and the Colonel is that there is not a groundswell of support for them. Raj Thackeray has mass support. Hence he cannot be arrested.

  38. GB,

    There is a huge difference between using Urdu to represent Muslims and OM to represent Hindus. From the “stereotyping/profiling” angle, which is what you seem to be examining the issue from, of course both are same. But to a believer in the religion, these things are entirely different, and that is something to which you atheists show ZERO sensitivity. You may feel this is splitting hair, but again, to a believer this difference is glaring. If CNN/IBN use a quotation Quran in a context analogous to where they used OM, that would be the same. But they won’t, of course.

  39. @Froginthewell: No. If you remember terrorists write in English not in Urdu. And I like the “You atheists” —I would like to say that I am an agnostic though I believe that your “believer” rage is not likely to be assuaged by that. Now please remember that your believer rage at the word Om may be mirrored by an Islamic believer who is offended by what the Urdu letters mean or more importantly what they signify to those who do not recognize the letters. In other words, for those like me who do not know what those letters mean the green background and the Urdu letters convey the same message of “religious sanction” than the “Om” does.

  40. Diwali-and-Christmas-gift-for-all-eternity-rolled 🙂

    I just realized something reading your blog. I am a Hindu and I used to feel very ashamed of Gujarat, Church burnings and events like Malegaon etc. Though it seems very innocent to be apologetic, but what I now feel is that by being ashamed of this I am making the same mistake that I once used to make by associating any act of Islamic terrorism with Muslims at large.
    Any crime or act of terror has to be seen with dispassion, and that’s how the Media should potray it too. (Which IMHO the Indian Media does to a great extent, under the constraints of cut throat competition in that space, they just have to add some flavor to it.)

    And by the way, it’s not hypocrisy, it’s just POLITICS.

    Thanks again for being progressive and non partisan.

    ps: I wonder if I can use a spell check while posting a comment.

  41. There is an interesting point here i was thinking abt – the reaction of the public at large to the Malegaon investigations – there is absolutely no public outcry or anything of that sort..Either from the Majority community or Minority community. Even Mamta’s Nano agitation, which was so localised, created more excitement and discussion amongst various regions in the country.
    But here, the arrest of the Sadhvi or Lt. Col. Purohit hasnt really generated any great excitement amongst the general public, in terms of you know a kind of anti-terrorism type feeling. Its been more of curiosity, abt the Sadhvi and a quiet surprise abt a lone-wolf army officer taking part in all of this.

    I mean if the idea of the media was that, here is an expose` of a new wave of Terrorism and guess what this is Hindu terrorism, and its one of those never-before-occurred phenomenon and here is a serving officer involved and there is a woman involved, and if the Media thot that this wud result in some kind of a public uprising against Hindu terrorism then unfortunately all that has turned to a damp squib.
    Even the US election and Obama’s victory generated more discussion points among Indians than this terrorism-in-our-own-backyard stuff.

    A lot of the discussion abt this new wave terrorism has remained very much within the realm of the Media ppl only … even as they try to keep all of this on the Headlines, or invite ppl on talk shows and their pathetic attempts at “Is the Army a breeding ground for terrorists” !! … or of course the desperately-media-attention seeking Teestalvad type ppl ….

  42. Well I have all along said that do not trust the police. These guys are inept and corrupt beyond imagination.

    Today morning IBN carried a news report punching large holes in the ATS theory on Lt Col Purohit. The key points were:
    a)
    Charge – Purohit supplied RDX for Samjhauta blasts from the Army supplies. A very serious charge.
    Counter – The army does not use RDX and as per the then forensic reports of Haryana Police RDX was not used in those blasts.
    Action – ATS now wants to revisit the Samjhauta case to do a forensic examination again. If we can’t catch the real culprit lets at least change the circumstances of the crime. Case Solved.

    b)
    Charge – Samjhauta, Mecca Masjid, Malegaon and a few more unexplained blasts were carried out by Purohit.
    Counter – It is a massive intelligence failure if this is true. Also, it goes against what the central and local agencies had concluded at that time. These people are essentially amateurs. They consistently get blown by the bombs they assemble and leave tell tale signs at the scene of crime (like a bike). For them to have planned and executed so many bombings over such a long time without getting caught is too much to swallow.

    Now this brings us to the point that all along the police forces of various states have ‘cracked’ cases. They may or may not have arrested all culprits but they have the names and photos of all men involved including all details of planning and execution.

    Is that believable at all?

    I have all along believed that the recent tamasha mounted in Jamia Nagar (Delhi) at Batla House has no substance. This is proved by the stunned silence that we get now. Where is the money trail, the millions that moved into the accounts of the deceased? Where are the two terrorists who escaped? What happened to proof on the claims in the press conferences? Nothing. There was nothing and there will be nothing. Three people (including Inspector Sharma) lost their lives in vain.

    Like all cases before this these cases will also fall flat.

    It is not about blaming Arundhati and her gang. By constantly invoking her name we give her more credit than she deserves. We all know what she stands for. Are we sure what we stand for?

    As someone pointed out and its my personal experience that getting an FIR registered is a herculean task. The rot is much deeper. It is the police that needs to get it’s act together. Till then we can keep getting blown up and blaming the other community.

  43. Just a question….& perhaps there lies a point within

    How is it that the comments on this blog are so civil and people disagree so politely and there are some who actually apologize for misunderstandings…?

    Is it because this blog is about bomb blasts allegedly by terrorists who are hindus and not by terrorists who are muslim? (compare with some of the very rabid arguments in Was Jinnah secular and several other posts in the same blog)

    Or is it that GBs editorial scissors too discriminate based on religion! Nah, I don’t think so

    P.S. To the other venky (comment: Nov 16th, 2008 at 4:13 pm): Hi, been here before? good one

  44. GB : That is a dangerous moral equivalence. Okay, it might be better put this way :

    Do you accept that even in the dream of their dreams any of CNN-IBN-type media will not use a Quranic quotation in such a context?

    On the other hand, urdu does get used, as you point out. This shows, conclusively at that, that there is huge difference between urdu and Quran, to a believer. Because one is a central feature of religion while the other is secondary – urdu is only something used by ( most ) Muslims in the geographical location of south Asia, while Quran is part of the religion – to them the sublime truth. My contention is that to Hindus “OM” doesn’t belong to the secondary category, because to Hindus it is the “EkAkSharam brahma”. Does that make it clear?

  45. If you remember terrorists write in English not in Urdu.

    Really? I have seen anti-national graffiti in malayALam. So there could well be more “literature” than IM emails. Please don’t tell me that you know about every single pro-terrorist writing.

  46. Thoug I don’t agree with you to the fullest, I would still say that If they have done this, then they stand to be hanged. But What I object in your point of view is comparison of Hindu and Muslims all along. more than 60 years of Congress regime has already lost the balance between Hindus and Muslims. Tell me why Afzal Guru is not hanged yet( Let’s keep Geelani part aside). Afzal Guru is proven Guilty. Tell me why suddenly, the investigations, which started off like hurricane after Delhi blast and ahmedabad bomb finding fiasco have flattened after Great Amar Singh’s allegations about Batla House encounter being fake. Why suddenly the six serial blasts and Assam Mega serial blasts have become sidekick investigations.
    My objectiosn is not to the pace of Malegaon case, but to the relative pace of others after Malegaon has been discovered. The timing of this sudden stall in other investigations (6 months to elections) make it look fishier.

  47. the stupidest thing that struck me of this whole episode is the consensus ‘there is no hindu or muslim terror, only terror’. (something which you touch upon in your reply to yossin).

    hindu terror: terrorism with the object of furthering the conceptualing of india as a homeland for hindus where hindus are first-class citizens like in israel or pakistan.

    islamic terror: terrorism inspired by the idea of the political identity of the ‘ummah’ or restoring muslims to a position of aristocracy as they believed muslims used to be in their la-la land history.

    of course both forms of terrorism are acts by a loony fringe who are taking revenge on each other by killing innocent people.

    this is what happens when you mix religion and politics. everytime.

  48. Considering our cops’ investigative skills and ability to present a good case in court, the Sadhvi and friends would walk out free – just the same way a lot of Muslims arrested on suspicion walk out free too.

    The same way the arrests and alleged tortures of Muslim suspects create even more angry young Muslim youth, the same way, the Sadhvi’s arrest and future release would create more support for what she symbolises right now – Hindu revenge.

    Now you know why some people openly, and some secretly, love POTA and encounters. Lock ’em up for a long time or eliminate them – as that’s all we are good at. Not at proving guilt.

  49. The involvement of Hindu right-wing elements in planned acts of urban mayhem will now be used, ad nauseum for years to come to support the central thesis of their arguments—-all acts of terrorism in India are done by Hindus and blamed on innocent Muslims and on Pakistani agents.

    NDTV is already getting wet dreams b’coz of this. In fact, Madam Dutt can’t have enough. For once she’s not fakin her orgasm.

  50. Hi

    So it was all about what Hindu leads say when someone who is arrested on acts of terrotism happens to be a muslim and how much of overreaction occurs when it happens to be a Hindu.
    Dont you actually find this a bit funny to ask the question why?
    Now you answer this simple question…Why did a few Muslims in India stage a dharna for a day when India was ready to help US in capturing Osama by giving the base. They carried boards praising Osama (the guy who bombs a lot of Indian embassies). The next notion is why is it only with the Muslims?

    If the media and judiciary (after Balakrishnan I have started having some faith in judiciary now) were fair, then nobody would be taking sides. you have a belief in a system and if that system is brought to task, you would ofcourse take its side (especially when people label it even when nothing has been proved) until the judgement is given..In India the act of respecting hinduism has been left to the people when media and congress love to rip it off.

    And Mr. Bong, nobody is naming it as Islamic terrorism but as Fundamental Islamic terrorism.

    I remember reading the paper following the Beslan school hostage crisis where it mentioned that a paper in Iran actaully put this as their headline “It is a shame but true that all terrorists are muslims”. Would Shabana Azmi say anything in those lines?

    And about the Shamkaracharya case, that you said in reference with Geelani..This is waht the court pronounced. Though there are no concrete charges, you have to prove yourself that you are not guilty. It came in the papers

    We all love to say there are hypocrats.
    Why is it that none ever bother to find out why they are being ones in the truest sense in which the dictionary defines hypocracy

  51. Political correctness aside,

    The chances of a person like Lt. Col Purohit, going rogue were very high.

    In fact most people with access to intelligence, as much as Lt. Col Purohit had, really know the gravity of threat, that democratic regions of the Indian subcontinent face, from Islamic expansionism, both demographically and ideologically.

    It might be quite possible, that supporting a “tit-for tat-attack” on the headquarters of a terror group like SIMI in Malegaon, might have seemed completely logical to Lt. Col Purohit. Afterall, the government had previously shown its inability to deal with Islamic terror in a comprehensive manner.

    The problem is that more and more Hindus, with a ability to look at the bigger picture, are realizing that governments at the center and states, dont have the ability or the will to deal with Islamic expansionism. What compounds matter further is the ability of successive governments to use it instead, for vote-bank politics.

    Readers keep an eye on Assam in the coming year.
    Even ULFA will be forced to become pro-Hindu now 🙂

    Lets hope GOI doesnt mess it up this time.

    [GB adds: Evidently Ketaki you didnt read what I wrote after the post, Hence edited.]

  52. Well….m nt sure how true all these stories are…bt this was inevitable….if you have allowed one kind of terrorism to flourish for so often….its counter part will arise….and now, if one was not enuff…theres one more….
    btw…how does it matters to guys sitting in US of A….ur life is much more peaceful/secured/free of terrible hassles in common man’s life in India…u aint gonna come back also….so do not give “no no india is my country crap” and relax….
    for those in India, learn to live with it or if u want things to change…use the only weapon u have in ur hands…VOTE…
    its nt abt who to VOTE, its sending across a message that even the rational/sensible minds VOTE and politicans can no longer rely on the deals of rice INR 1/kg or free TV sets to win elections…..

    ~ohh….my doodhwala has come…will come back soon

  53. i would not claim to understand terrorism…its kind of beyond me how any goals can be achieved by the clandestain killing of innocents instead of direct dialoques or actions…Hinduism is the philosophy that iam born into and i do know that if any of the 4 pillars of that religion ( satyam, prema, dharma and ahimsa) is taken away, the whole thing will crumble…but today i know how some of the muslim brothers must feel abt the actions of a few….helplessness…

    i think its time we have open dialoques…time we keep aside political correctness and actually air out our concerns…time we come together as a majority and stand against this…when a christian or muslim community is attacked then the hindus should be the ones to go to comfort and aid them…its time we show that wht is wrong will always be wrng, no matter in wht name its being done on…

    boy! tht sounded so preachy.

  54. @Arnab: Great post, this one.

    And to someone who asked why the discussion has been so civil, the answer is that the rogues who used to turn this into an rabid religion bashing forum have been absent from here for some time. [edited]

    And at least one escaped to Australia.

  55. Was not able to read the post yesterday, though it showed up in google reader, was the site down.

    That said, it was shameful to see political parties offering tickets to Sadhvi and declaring that either they are innocent or worse justifying their terrible act.

  56. You folks seem to be fascinated with A Roy, to the extent that each of your political posts and associated commentary have about a million mentions of her. I fail to see how A Roy is relevant to this discussion. By going to great lengths to bring her in everywhere your posts end up long, slack and unreadable. For your own sake get over her.

  57. Quite an informative link “pkr”.

    It’s been few months since I have been commenting on this blog and I can certainly say that comment section on this particular post is the more civilized than those on other such “sensitive” topics. As pointed by “pkr” the reason for this is quite obvious.

    A lot has been said in mainstream media as well as in the comment section of this blog (including previous posts) but I would like to pen down my thoughts on this issue/ the bigger picture.

    In my opinion people who have been caught by ATS are not the real culprits they are just pawns in this game of Chess, we have a much bigger conspiracy at our hands. The real culprits, the real brains behind the scene or the proverbial puppet masters, are the politically motivated propaganda agents who create an environment and slowly but surely brainwash people (even serving army officers) in indulging into treasonous activities like terrorism. This blog, I believe, is quite familiar with some of these earlier mentioned propaganda agents. This has happened before, it is currently happening and if not checked it will metamorphose itself into a full fledge genocide.

    Credit must be given to these propaganda agents, they have learned pretty much every trick in the book, and they have engrossed the learning of many of the genocides perpetuated in the last 100 years. I list a few of their tactics:

    1. Blame it on the Jews – This tactic was employed by the Nazi party to demonize Jews. Whatever happened, from plague to economic depression, Nazi’s used to blame it on the Jews. We can see the same thing being done in India as well where the Hindutva brigade blames everything from population explosion to increase in crime rate to terrorism (even when the suspect are Hindus) on Muslims (and sometimes on Christens).

  58. 2. “Tell a lie a thousand times and it becomes a truth” – Just like Nazi’s the Hindutva brigade:
    a. spreads lies and conspiracy theories (Mugalistan corridor),
    b. extrapolates/ selective interprets problems – for example, the issue of Bangladeshi immigrants. The fact of the matter is that both Hindus and Muslims immigrate from Bangladesh and Nepal, but the Hindutva brigade doesn’t think that it is hypocritical to call one of these groups as illegal immigrant and the other one as refugee.
    c. skew history (the most important tactic) – I will try to explain this one with a simple example, a person on the comment section of this very blog (post: The Imperialism Argument), posted a very detailed and especially selective history of Sindh. All one needed to do was a simple google search to see how full of lies it was (I did tried to post comment regarding this but somehow it didn’t show up on the blog site). Coming back to history of Sindh, I will just quote one example of the aforementioned skewing of history, that person mentioned that when Muslim army was about to enter the capital of Sindh, Queen of Sindh (who was also half-sister of the King of Sindh) “to save her honor” committed Jauhar. A simple googling revealed that the Queen didn’t commit Jauhar she actually committed Sati because her husband/brother had recently died in battle. The thing to be noted is that, the fact remains that the Queen died an unnatural death (probably under pressure) by immolating herself, but if we look at the Hindutva versions of it Queen died to save herself from “raping” and “pillaging” Muslims, whereas what actually happened was that she fell victim to one of the most cruel and inhuman malpractice of Hindu religion.
    3. “It is foolish to think that there is a place for Jews in the Reich economy” – Self explanatory. I am quite certain that all of us have been exposed to propaganda encouraging Hindus to not engage in any economic deals with Muslims (ex: Hindus being encouraged to not to buy stuff from Muslims).
    4. Training of militia – All genocides that have ever taken place have been preceded by training (physical and mental) of militia training to carry it out. For example in Rwandan genocide, Hutu’s carried out the genocide in well planned fashion they did through preparations before initiating this genocide. These preparations included:
    a. Training of Hutu militia – Hutu’s had organized militias numbered around 30,000 one militia member for every ten Tutsi family (Can we name any India Militia aka Sena??)
    b. Distribution of Weapons – Machetes, which proved to be the most effective killers, were distributed to members of Interahamwe and Impuzamugambi, the Hutu right wing parties. (Trishul dakshina anyone??)

    I can quote many such similarities/ clues that are all around us, hinting at what is being planned. One last thing that I would like to quote is that all the genocides that have ever been perpetuated have been justified by one common propaganda theme –
    “Do to them, what they will do to you, before they do it to you.”

    Sign are all around now us the decision rests in our hands, we as common Indians, need to decide which path we choose. Shall we too should fall victim to these propaganda agents or shall we stop them in their tracks.

    P.S: A little sleepy so please ignore “slips” in the spelling/grammar.

  59. The current ATS “investigations” have met their objectives.

    The cock and bull story presented via motivated leaks and played up by a demented media has begun to fall apart.

    Today’s newspapers are screaming that the Public Prosecutor of the ATS team has retracted his statement that RDX was used in the Samjhauta blasts under pressure from the centre.

    Reason?

    It contradicts the results of earlier investigations by the Haryana Police (Congi Govt. mind you) and the ATS statement has potential of undermining UPA govt.s international credibility (as if these people have any credibility to begin with). The assesment has come from no less than the IB (Intelligence Bureau).

    What about the narco test results? Nothing conclusive, yet the ATS demands that some innocent people be kept under judicial remand.

    Why? Just because the ATS thinks so, never mind the lack of material evidence to back the cock and bull story. And yet the people who call for balance have no qualms supporting legal defence of Jehadi terror paying from the public exchequer.

    We are being led to believe that an Army officer can plot a series of blasts in a just 6-7 hour meeting. The plot that went undetected for 2-3 years, thrown in with the Colonels cunning of outsourcing the job to some Muslims. Think about that outsourcing hit jobs to some Muslims to bomb their own people.

    We are further led to believe that such a master planner inadvertantly left trails of his misdeeds to be picked up at leisure by the ATS.

    The big picture is however that the major actors in this drama i.e the various ATS units in state polices, the Army and the numerous Hindu outfits are immical to Jehadi designs.

    While the ATS’s and the Army (along with various security agencies) are the visible face of armed resistence, the Hindu oufits present the ideological-culture opposition.

    So, how good it will be if all the three could be tarnished in a single go.

    And now we are precisely seeing this. A “Hindu Terror” has emerged dislodging Hindus from the moral high horse, there are questions being asked about the Services apolitical character.

    Less said about the ATS, as they are begining to look like amatuers, doing the part time job of UPA’s court jesters.

  60. @ Jedi Master
    Yes yes..u r right.
    The Hindus burnt themselves in Sabarmati express too, so that the Hindutva people could put the blame on Muslims and do the Gujarat riots.

    Its all a continuum from Raja Dahir’s time to blame the Islamists. Afterall, all that the Muslim chroniclers themselves wrote is also Hindutva propaganda.

    Too bad that “Hindutva” people like HHBB, use actual translations and provide complete details in their posts.

    What the Romilla Thapar type historians write is the real thing 🙂
    Afterall , they are the ones who share Darjeeling tea and Onion pakora at the India Habitat Center parties.

    @ Jedi Master
    What you are doing is much closer to the Goebels’ Nazi propaganda tactics. The sad irony here is that you are one of the Jews.

  61. @K

    Aye, isn’t life comfortable?? Especially when you can just ignore the message and attack the messenger? How convenient of you to ignore the interview of great nationalist “Abhinav Bharat” and attack the person.

  62. Hypocrisy or human nature, you decide:

    “If a man is offered a fact that goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence.” —- Bertrand Russell

  63. Ketaki Kothari : Shan, When the cat is away, the mice begin to play.

    Hi Ketaki, the kool kat’s back. Time for the mice (or rats if you please) to take cover.

    Kool kat was on a business trip, but returned (exhausted) a few days ago.

    What’s been happening? How has everyone been keeping? I checked the blogsite a few times from Canada, but it was fairly mundane stuff, so I did not post comments.

  64. @ Shan : And to someone who asked why the discussion has been so civil, the answer is that the ROGUES who used to turn this into an rabid religion bashing forum have been absent.

    Tut, tut, Shan. If we are rogues, then can we apply the word ‘scoundrel’ to our antagonists? I am sure the lull seemed like paradise to the scoundrels who were trying to use this forum as their anti-Hindu personal fiefdom. Like an open goal, Fanka maathe digbaaji !! Alas for them, the time for gymnastics is over.

    While bearing a very low opinion of our civility, you seem to have a very exalted sense of your own graciousness. I assure you others don’t share it. After all, when an analogy of ‘oil to light a lamp’ was presented, you were reminded of lubricating fluids. Disgusting.

    @ Shan : And at least one escaped to Australia.
    Surely a veiled reference to me? Like all of your other snooty yet vacuous pontifications, wrong again !!! 🙂

    I recently spent three weeks in Vancouver, and have fallen in love with it. Its more cosmopolitan and friendly than Australia, and while it rains a lot, I found Australia sizzling hot !! You can buy a house in Richmond (Vancouver) for a lot less some place further out in Sydney, like North Ryde. The clincher is that my wife has relatives in Canada, and Canada it will be.

    And why do you say ‘escaped? Most people would say a 29 year old emigrating with his family to a far better place, earning 4 times his current net salary, to an oil-rich, cultured and cosmopolitan country, is more a huge step up rather than pure escapade.

    Of course, you may claim otherwise. Your vocabulary is as unique as your universe.

  65. bunty : You folks seem to be fascinated with A Roy

    (Drily)… No, not fascinated with A Roy. Disgusted with A.Roy, old chap, disgusted. Thoroughly disgusted.

  66. Wow, lots of commies on this blog. The comparison of Hindutva orgs to Nazi Germany is a little overkill don’t you think. It’s a little unimaginative too, being copy paste stuff.

  67. TO JEDI-MASTER [JM] : 1 OF 3 : JEDIMASTER’S MISC COMMENTS ABOVE
    ==========================================================
    @ JEDI MASTER : “I CAN CERTAINLY SAY THAT COMMENT SECTION ON THIS POST IS THE MORE CIVILIZED THAN THOSE ON OTHER SUCH “SENSITIVE” TOPICS. AS POINTED BY “PKR” THE REASON FOR THIS IS QUITE OBVIOUS”.

    Another way of saying that ‘you’ believe it is ‘civil’ as ‘informed people’ haven’t wrestled down any anti-Hindu propaganda (yet) with the vigour they merit. And all the while giving you an open goal to spout and cant facile misinformation.

    @ JM : IN MY OPINION PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN CAUGHT BY THE ATS ARE NOT THE REAL CULPRITS

    The most sensible thing I’ve ever heard you say. 🙂

    @ JM : “ “BLAME IT ON THE JEWS – THIS TACTIC WAS EMPLOYED BY THE NAZI PARTY TO DEMONIZE JEWS. WHATEVER HAPPENED, FROM PLAGUE TO ECONOMIC DEPRESSION, NAZI’S USED TO BLAME IT ON THE JEWS”.

    Nazis blaming Jews for the plague? Where oh where was German Europe struck down by plague between 1933 and 1945? Where in Himmel or Hades did the Nazis blame Jews for the plague? The church blamed Jews for the plague in medieval and post-medieval Europe.

    @ JM : “WE CAN SEE THE SAME THING BEING DONE IN INDIA WHERE THE HINDUTVA BRIGADE BLAMES EVERYTHING FROM POPULATION EXPLOSION TO INCREASE IN CRIME RATE TO TERRORISM ON MUSLIMS (AND SOMETIMES ON CHRISTENS).

    (Drily) No. The causes of terrorism, population explosion and high crime rates are evident, not just in India, but the whole world. The newspapers are riddled with reports of riots, genocide, ethnic cleansing, population swamping, from UK, Europe, Russia, Africa (Sudan to boot), South Asia, Australia …

    The facts are plain to see, and there is no need for Hindutva interjection. There is a desperate need to rose-tint how people perceive the cause behind all this misery by constant propaganda. And thus we see a media jihad of misinformative propaganda. It fools no one.

    Actually you will notice that it is your antagonists who can be compared to the Jewish victims. A particular community has, in addition to tyranny and plunder, culturally demonized Hindus for millennia. The ugly Hindu bania extorting money. The ugly Brahmin drinking urine. The ugly Hindu Kshatriya murdering imaginary Indus Dravidians. The ugly Hindu Sudra … fullstop!! Schoolbooks in Pakistan continue spouting this rubbish even today. Many candid religious websites of that denomination continue to propagate this.

    If you embark upon a comparison between Nazism and the twin faiths of Hinduism (even Hindutva), and Islam, you will find Nazism has far, far more in common with one rather than the other. This will apply to whatever Nazi attribute you chose, whether military brutality, genocide, hatred of foes, ethnic cleansing, propaganda, deceit, corrupt practices to achieve nefarious ends.

    It will be quite easy to prove which belief system fits like a glove with Nazism, but I am not going to do it here, as I respect GBs caution against mere religious templating. Just one fact. German WWII armies had Muslim divisions within them, albeit small. Many German generals fighting for Hitler expressed strong admiration for Islam, calling it ‘an ideal religion for soldiers’.

    So much so for the “Hindu as the Nazi” and the “Muslim as the Jew”.

    @ JM : “TELL A LIE A THOUSAND TIMES AND IT BECOMES A TRUTH” – JUST LIKE NAZI’S THE HINDUTVA BRIGADE:

    Lol. And this is from people who claim India and Israel were behind the Indian ocean tsunami, the Jews caused Sep/11 bombing, and the RSS burned its own people in Godhra, even though there was undisputed vigorous protestations by Muslim mobs at the place.

    The only lie I can see being chanted a thousand times over is “We are a faith of love. The name of our faith is peace. No. You aren’t. Is isn’t.

    @ JM : “ SELECTIVELY INTERPRETS PROBLEMS – FOR EG BANGLADESHI IMMIGRANTS. BOTH HINDUS AND MUSLIMS IMMIGRATE FROM BANGLADESH AND NEPAL, BUT THE HINDUTVA BRIGADE DOESN’T THINK IT HYPOCRITICAL TO CALL ONE AS ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT AND OTHER ONE AS REFUGEE”.

    The distinction is valid. One group is being massacred and fleeing for their lives (my own tenant’s three brothers and families were killed 6 years ago in Bangladesh), and the other is producing population at such a frenzied pace that it is drowning the globe with its all-devouring growth. Thus one is a quivering refugee and the other is not only an illegal and perpetual immigrant, but a malignant one at that.

    You had certain other observations comparing Jews with Muslims in India, Hutu militia. After reading it, I found it th reading certainly had not been a judicious investment of my time [!!!], and I certainly won’t compound my error by commenting on it !! One point did stand out though, when you said “all the genocides that have ever been perpetuated have been justified by one common propaganda theme – “Do to them, what they will do to you, before they do it to you.”.

    This is untrue. Please explain how this is even remotely applicable of the genocide of at least 0.5m to 1m hapless Hindus in Bangladesh in 1971? Or the Armenians by the Turks in 1914-1918. The former was both whipped up and perpetrated out of undiluted, unadulterated, unbridled hatred of the “the other” (here the Hindu). Not out of any stoking of the paranoia concerning the virtues of pre-emtiveness.

  68. TO JEDI-MASTER [JM]: 2 OF 3 : JEDI-MASTER’S COMMENTS ABOVE ON SINDH

    @ JEDI-MASTER : (edited by me) “HINDUTVAVADIS SKEW HISTORY, THEIR MOST IMPORTANT TACTIC. ONE SIMPLE E.G., HHBB POSTED IN “IMPERIALISM ARGUMENT” A VERY DETAILED AND ESPECIALLY SELECTIVE HISTORY OF SINDH. ALL ONE NEEDED TO DO WAS A SIMPLE GOOGLE SEARCH TO SEE HOW FULL OF “LIES” IT WAS. I DID TRY TO COMMENT ON THIS BUT IT DIDN’T SHOW UP ON THE BLOG SITE).”

    Since I posted that history, you are welcome to direct your comments at me.

    I am very surprised at your claim, as I did not hear from you after I presented that post on Sindh to you. If you tried to post a rebuttal and it did not appear :
    1. Why did it not appear?
    2. When it did not appear, did you try posting it again?
    3. Did you contact GB asking if there was a technical hitch?

    Or did you do nothing at all, and yet ask us to believe that you had a trenchant and brilliant rebuttal ready, but it mysteriously did not appear? Hmmm. Dog ate my homework sah!! Khair, choro.

    About ‘my lies’, point out where my ‘lies’ are, and I will indeed consider if my facts need updating or changing. If you cannot come up with any valid ones, you should retract your allegation.

    Let’s start with your point about sati below.

    @ JM : [edited by me] “HHBB MENTIONED THAT WHEN MUSLIM ARMY WAS ABOUT TO ENTER THE CAPITAL OF SINDH, THE QUEEN OF “TO SAVE HER HONOR” COMMITTED JAUHAR. GOOGLING REVEALED THE QUEEN DIDN’T COMMIT JAUHAR BUT SATI AS HER HUSBAND HAD RECENTLY DIED IN BATTLE. SHE DIED AN UNNATURAL DEATH (PROBABLY UNDER PRESSURE) BY IMMOLATING HERSELF, BUT IF WE LOOK AT THE HINDUTVA VERSIONS SHE DIED TO SAVE HERSELF FROM “RAPING” AND “PILLAGING” MUSLIMS, WHEREAS WHAT HAPPENED WAS THAT SHE FELL VICTIM TO ONE OF THE MOST CRUEL AND INHUMAN MALPRACTICE OF HINDU RELIGION”.

    You are incorrect on many, many levels. Let’s take a look at the facts, one by one.

    HHBB LIES WHEN HE SAYS QUEEN KILLED HERSELF TO SAVE HONOUR
    ———————————————————–
    You allege that my post states “when Muslim army was about to enter the capital of Sindh, the queen of “to save her honor” committed Jauhar”.

    Go and read my post again, it says nothing of the sort. All it says is “Dahir’s half-sister wife committed jauhar”. Nothing more, nothing less. Show me where that post remotely says “to save her honour”, or “when the Muslim army was about to enter the capital of Sindh”. It never says this.

    You are reading things which don’t exist. Am I the liar here, or you?

    HHBB LIES WHEN HE SAYS QUEEN COMMITTED JAUHAR. IT WAS SATI
    ———————————————————–
    Your second point was that “the queen” (sic)’ committed Sati, not Jauhar. You claimed that some elemental googling was enough to expose this canard. Hmmm. Bo-te..

    Sati is an individual action. It is collectively practiced only when wives of the same husband undergo the ritual (death of Krishna or Ranjit Singh). When disparate and unconnected womenfolk immolate themselves, especially when fearing attacks, it is Jauhar.

    In many places, the terms have been used interchangeably, as the action is the same, self-immolation. If so, it is the context that will reveal whether it is sati or jauhar. Let us see the context of the act in question.

    Hugh Kennedy (“The Great Arab conquests”) quotes from the Chachnama that “Many of Dahir’s women committed suicide, burning themselves, their ATTENDANTS and ALL THEIR POSSESSIONS RATHER THAN BE CAPTURED.

    The Chachnama puts a little speech in to the mouth of the dead king’s sister (queen) “Our glory has gone and the term of our life has come to a close. AS THERE IS NO HOPE OF SAFETY AND LIBERTY, let US collect firewood and cotton and oil. The best thing for US, I think, is to burn ourselves to ashes so quickly we meet our husbands in the other world. THEY all entered a house, set fire to it, and were burnt alive.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=oLyZhTuIczMC&pg=PA299&lpg=PA299&dq=dahir sind&source=web&ots=UUkQEyumyb&sig=DKtSC9PcU3PZc9UiZ0vhL0FLVZQ&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA302,M1

    This is also available in the website
    http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~makhdoom/chach.html
    which says “ Kasim disposed his army, and ordered the miners to dig and undermine the walls….thus the bastions were thrown down. Bai (Maai), the sister of Dahir, assembled all her women, & said, “Jaisiya is separated from us, and Mohammad Kasim is come. God forbid that we should owe our liberty to these outcast cow-eaters! Our honor would be lost! Our respite is at an end, and there is nowhere any hope of escape; let us collect wood, cotton and oil, for I think we should burn ourselves and go to meet our husbands. If any wish to save herself, she may.”

    Does this seem like an individual act of Sati, or a collective act of Jauhar? What about the willingness of the attendants to self-immolate themselves as well, a la the companions of Padmini of Chittor?

    How many Satis do you know where the sacrificer burns all her possessions with her? Why does Bai say “AS THERE IS NO HOPE OF SAFETY AND LIBERTY”? Why does she say “as Kasim is come”? Why does the Chachnama, per the website above, make mention of the act immediately following “after the bastions were thrown down?

    Do you think this could this be jauhar after all?

    SURELY BAI’S FEARS WERE UNFOUNDED? THE DEFEATED WOMEN WERE TREATED WITH RESPECT?
    ——————————————————————–
    And were the queen’s fears unfounded? What fate awaited the surrendered surviving womenfolk? We know what the JediMaster fervently believes. But what about the real world? What did the Chachnama say? What did Baladuri say?

    “When the fort was captured, all the treasures, property and arms fell into the hands of the victors. When the number OF PRISONERS WAS CALCULATED, IT WAS FOUND TO AMOUNT TO THIRTY THOUSAND PERSONS, AMONGST WHOM THIRTY WERE DAUGHTERS OF CHIEFS, AND ONE OF THEM WAS RAI DAHIR’S SISTER’S DAUGHTER, whose name was Jaisiya [another manuscript uses Hasna]. They were sent to Hajaj (Governor in Baghdad).

    The head of Dahir and the fifth part of the prisoners were forwarded in charge of K’ab, son of Maha’rak. When the head of Dahir, the women, and the property all reached Hajja’j, he prostrated himself before God. Hajjaj then forwarded the head, the wealth and the prisoners to the Khalifa. When the Khalifa read the letter, he praised Allah. HE SOLD SOME OF THE DAUGHTERS OF THE CHIEFS, AND SOME HE GRANTED AS REWARDS. When he saw the daughter of Rai Dahir’s sister, he was much struck by her beauty and charms.

    http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~makhdoom/chach.html

    When Dahir’s severed head was presented to Hajjaj, a courtier sang: “we have conquered Sindh …. Rejoice, the evil doers are disgraced. Their wealth has been brought away . . . They are now solitary and brittle as eggs AND THEIR WOMEN, FAIR AND FRAGRANT AS MUSK-DEER, ARE NOW ASLEEP IN OUR HAREMS.”

    http://sindhjagarta.blogspot.com/2007/12/raja-dahir.html
    http://yangtze.cs.uiuc.edu/~jamali/sindh/story/node8.html

    Of course, this was a far better fate than the temple priests of Deval . “The governor of Dewal fled, and the priests of the temple were massacred.”
    http://www.geocities.com/a_habib/Dada/qasim.html

    “THE QUEEN” DID NOT COMMIT JAUHAR. SHE COMMITTED SATI, PROBABLY UNDER PRESSURE”.
    ———————————————————————-
    I’ve proved that Bai committed Jauhar, not Sati. Also, note above that SHE was who proposed the Jauhar, & she was “not” persuaded to accept. She also permitted any unwilling woman to retire. So you see, it was not sati, and neither was it “probably under pressure”.

    HHBB QUOTES SELECTIVELY
    ————————–
    Please highlight which quotes you would like me to say. There are reports suggesting Qasim was not a mindless fanatic. After his blutlust abated, he performed commendable tasks of maintaining harmony among all his subjects, both Hindu, Buddhist and Muslim, especially in Brahmanabad. There are further reports (albeit very dubious) that Hajjaj himself instructed Qasim not to harm his Hindu subjects and allow them to perform their rites and rituals, provided they paid their extortionate jizzya, and the huge annual revenue to Baghdad was maintained. Qasim even may have permitted the rebuilding of the Debal temple. His wazir was Sisakar, the ex-minister of Raja Dahir, while his treasurer was a relative of Dahir, Kaksa.

    All this is from the Chachnama and Baladhuri. However, remember that both are Muslim documents, and are likely to, consciously or unconsciously, extol their invader’s deeds, curtail his brutality, and denigrate the enemy. Though the Chachnama is refreshingly candid, it is not completely free from bias. While extolling Chach and Dahir for their bravery, it nevertheless firmly claims these heathens went to hell !! Further, there is no proof at all that the Deval temple was rebuilt during his reign, even though the Chachnama claims so.

    And how does this stack up with the bloodthirsty image that even the Chachnama has to admit :

    “The Musalmans entered the town … protection was given to the artificers, merchants and common people … but he sat on the seat of cruelty and put all those who had fought to the sword. It is said that about six thousand fighting men were slain, but according to others sixteen thousand were killed.”

    After Multan held out for over two months, Qasim captured it by employing treachery. Six thousand defeated warriors were put to death, and all their relations and dependents were taken as slaves. Qasim allowed his army to have the whole of the spoils.

    Excerpts from “The Arab Conquest of Sind” by Mohammad Habib
    http://www.geocities.com/a_habib/Dada/qasim.html

  69. TO JEDI-MASTER (JM) : 3 OF 3 : CONCLUSIONS
    ==========================================================
    For all your pompous assertions and hollow allegations above, it seems your knowledge of Sindh is abysmally poor. I cite a few good sources for you to refer to below.

    A brief account of the Arab invasion is found in many Arab chronicles of the early years of Islam. A very good account is available from the Futuhul-Buldan of Ahmad ibn Yahya ibn Jabir Al Baladuri, an extract from which appears in “History of India” by Elliott & Dowson.

    By far the most detailed and reliable history appears in Tarikh-i-Hind wa Sind, known as the Chach Nama. It is a translation from an Arabic original, now lost, by Muhammad ‘Ali bin hamid bin Abu Bakar Kufi (who lived in reign of Sultan Nasir-ud-din Qubacha. The internal evidence of the Persian text is quite strong, and proves beyond doubt that though the translator added to it here and there, the original Arabic history was written at the time of the invasion, by a person who was well informed of the facts. He may be the Qazi appointed by Qasim at Alor.

    SORUCES AVILABLE ON THE INTERNET
    ===================================
    John Keay “A History of India”

    http://books.google.com/books?id=ibLUu6RlvqwC&pg=PA183&lpg=PA183&dq=dahir sind&source=web&ots=X_KC_COFWD&sig=eoorTPxeR_8vXsGdca7MRD2EV_Q&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result#PPA183,M1

    Hugh Kennedy “The Great Arab conquests”

    http://books.google.com/books?id=oLyZhTuIczMC&pg=PA299&lpg=PA299&dq=dahir sind&source=web&ots=UUkQEyumyb&sig=DKtSC9PcU3PZc9UiZ0vhL0FLVZQ&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=5&ct=result#PPA302,M1

    http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~makhdoom/sindh.html
    http://pachome1.pacific.net.sg/~makhdoom/sindstor.html
    http://www.experiencefestival.com/dahir
    http://india_resource.tripod.com/sindh.html

    I am sure you can find internet readable excerpts from the John Keay & Hugh Kennedy books if you google properly.

    Also, I advise you to be far more certain of your facts before casually banding about the term “liar” to people who dissent with you. You must know by now, that many of these dissenters know the facts in far more depth and breadth than you imagined, and terms like “liar” may boomerang back on you !! 😉

  70. vishal wrote:
    Increasingly, it would appear that only a small number of Muslims are opposed to terrorism.

    Vishal, without disagreeing with the gist of your post, I will pick on one sentence (the one above) and try to show how
    a)The statement is not necessarily true
    b) But the appearance of its being true to some people is an advantage to the partially color blind “secular” polity of our nation.

    I will use an analogy to try and see if I can make my thoughts more clear.

    Imagine a gardener who is attempting to make a homogeneous white flower bed, but keeps finding weeds with red, yellow and blue flowers. The gardener works every day to remove the red, blue and yellow flowered weeds.

    Imagine that this gardener falls ill and has to take time off, and is replaced by another gardener who is colorblind to red. The colorblind gardener faithfully removes all the yellow and blue flowers, but is unable to see the red flowered weeds and allows the red weeds to grow and actively protects then as if they were white.

    At this stage there comes a neighbor who wants to use this flower bed to grow Opium poppies. The plants the seeds on the flower bed, and the poppies appear in various colors including red and yellow. What happens now is that the gardener promptly removes the yellow flowers, but fails to notice the red flowers. So the drug grower neighbor soon realises that the way to grow poppy in his neighbor’s garden is to selectively plant red flowered poppies which will be missed by the colorblind gardener.

    It appears to me that this is what fake secularism is doing in India.

    Secularism should rally be like the first gardener who was not colorblind. He ruthlessly removed all flowers who did not conform to the homogeneity required in the garden. But our secularists (mostly non Muslims) are hypersensitive to what happens to the Muslim community. They are “colorblind” when it comes to criminal acts by Muslims because they feel that Muslims are always being targeted by the majority community. They imagine that they see discrimination against Muslims even when there is no discrimination and a man who is a criminal happens to be Muslim.

    Our drug dealer neighbors are Pakistan, Bangladesh and China. They fund and help all sorts of terrrist groups including ULFA (yellow flowers), naxalites (blue flowers) and Islamic terrorists (red flowers)

    Our colorblind secularists are able to pinpoint and remove terrorism from ULFA and naxalites, but they take special care to ensure that Muslims are not touched in any way. From the beginning Indian secularism has wanted to ensure that Muslims should neither be asked to join the mainstream nor should they be asked to do anything. Secularism in India has continuously sought to prove to Pakistan and other observers that Muslims in India can be wholly islamic without any need to join the mainstream in any way. This has been done to disprove the two nation theory, because Indian secularists have felt that causing any change among Muslims or demanding anything from them would be used by Pakistan to prove that “secular India” is not good for Muslims.

    So when foreign trained Islamic militants are placed within Muslim communities in India – our secularism prevents us from taking action against them because “we will be hurting our Muslim brothers” and in India you are secular only if you are constantly conscious of what you say and do so that you will not “hurt our Muslim brothers” If those foreign trained people indoctrinate Indian Muslims, our secularism still wants to ignore this, such is the selective color-blindness of our secularism.

    The continuous string of terrorist attacks openly claimed by “Indian Mujahideen” had put our colorblind secularists on the back foot. They were almost cured of their color blindness, so the Malegaon blasts case comes as a breath of fresh air. they have now found a new flower color to get rid of – they can see saffron flowers and are targeting saffron flowers so that they can continue to joyfully ignore the red flowers.

    Indian are secular. Indians do not like terrorism. But if a terrorist is Hindu or Buddhist or atheiest we will deal with hims firmly. But if a terrorist happens to be Muslim we will hesitate and think twenty times before even calling him a terrorist, “lest our Muslim brothers are hurt”

  71. “I checked the blogsite a few times from Canada, but it was fairly mundane stuff, so I did not post comments.”

    Yes Bara Bara Boob Boob, mundane as in no scope for bashing minorities presented itself in the last few posts. For someone who claims to be such a jetsetting successful personality, you sure do have a lot of time as can be seen from your trolling.

  72. What has happened is the result of 50 years of Congress rule…more pseudo secular governance will lead to a much worse situation..be prepared for the chaos ahead…

  73. @Ketaki Kothari:

    No. When the trolls are away, the civil posters come into play.

    @HHBB:

    Ah, the good times couldn’t last could they? I had an inkling that my post would somehow bring you back, like a bad penny. 🙂 I was expecting Khujur as well, but he must be otherwise occupied growing shakha proshakhas.

    It’s a little sad though that your fear of the impending Muslim invasion is forcing you to seek better fortunes elsewhere (congrats on the high salary! I am truly envious.). Because otherwise you seem to love Hindustan far more than pseudo-secular traitors like me. What can I say? It’s totally Vancouver’s gain and the grassroots Hindu revival movement’s loss.

    I wish my wife had family in Canada/Auatralia/New Zealand as well… 🙂

    Meanwhile, like you, I totally oppose Arnab’s penchant of posting mundane stuff on his blog from time to time, thus preventing you from unleashing your singular high-pitched toxic effluence.

    Arnab, please take care from now on. At least 1 in 3 posts have to be religion related. After all, it’s HHBB’s blog too!

  74. Oh my God, here we go again, another long and evasive post filled with personal and social/communal insults – HHBB must be back!!!

    Where were you, maybe gloating with satisfaction, at your landmark achievement with other “informed people” aka the earlier mentioned propaganda agents, who by way are probably too happy to see that their tactics and evil devices are finally working.

    HHBB neither do I claim to be the “alpha cat” of this blog nor do I suggest that I am a BIG shot consultant, but I must say that I have done a fair amount of consulting work for a number of fortune 100 firms. One of the things that I learned in my consulting career is called – “information overload”.

    What it means is that when you don’t have too much to say and you want to confuse the client into believing that you have done a fabulous job and what you are saying is the correct ( hindi translation – “kuch to todhfod macha di hai”), you fill in your presentation/client document with a pot load of crap and half-truths. The nature of these half-truths is such that they can be somewhat defended (if needed) but are essentially extrapolation/ overgeneralizations at best. Another characteristic of these half truths is that it takes a lot of time and effort to disprove them.

    It seems to me that being a big shot consultant you know this trick rather well. I am not going to dignify your “half-truths” by responding to them, it takes way too much time, something that I am a little short of (you do seem to have a lot of it). Maybe big shot consultants do have a lot of free time. How would I know, I am not a big shot consultant.

  75. I will reply to the question raised by you regarding use of propaganda in the Armenian genocide. Ottoman authorities used a lot of propaganda not only to start but also to justify the Armenian genocide, couple of key points to be noted are:

    1. By 1914, Ottoman authorities had already begun a propaganda drive to present Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire as a threat to the empire’s security. Armenian solders as well as civilians were openly accused of siding with Russians.

    2. In order to justify this enormous crime (of genocide) the requisite propaganda material was thoroughly prepared in Constantinople. It included such statements as “the Armenians are in league with the enemy. They will launch an uprising in Istanbul, kill off the Committee of Union and Progress leaders and will succeed in opening the straits.“

    Well being an expert consultant I am sure that you can see the reference to – “Do to them, what they will do to you, before they do it to you” – in the propaganda drive that lead to Armenian genocide.

    Another point that I would like to make is that contrary to your fancy, Armenian genocide was not perpetuated along religious lines; rather it was an extremely political motivated operation.
    Study of Armenian genocide by Hebrew University scholar Yehuda Bauer concluded that although Armenian Genocide, “is the closest parallel to the Holocaust”, there are several key differences between the Holocaust and the Armenian Genocide, particularly in regard to motivation. In Yehuda Bauer’s own words:

    “The Nazis saw the Jews as the central problem of world history. Upon its solution depended the future of mankind. Unless International Jewry was defeated, human civilization would not survive. The attitude towards the Jews had in it important elements of pseudo-religion. There was no such motivation present in the Armenian case; Armenians were to be annihilated for power-political reasons, and in Turkey only.”

    By the way, Nazi propaganda machine did blame Jews for the Black Death (ya dude the same one that wrecked havoc in medieval and post-medieval Europe), though they were not the first one to do so, a simple googling can confirm this.

  76. @ Shan to Ketaki Kothari: “No. When the trolls are away, the civil posters come into play”.

    So why is Shan posting then? 🙂

    @ Shan “I had an inkling that my post would somehow bring you back, like a bad penny.”
    relax. Its not your post. I visit the blogsite when I have time and when I want to. As I said, you have an exaggerated opinion of yourself.

    @ Shan “Because otherwise you seem to love Hindustan far more than pseudo-secular traitors like me. What can I say?”
    Didn’t say I love Hindustan (sic) more than you. Didn’t call you a traitor.

    It’s totally Vancouver’s gain and the grassroots Hindu revival movement’s loss. That’s your guilty sub-conscious speaking.

    @ Shan : “I wish my wife had family in Canada/Australia/New Zealand as well”
    You can always change your wife and get one who does.

    @Shan “Meanwhile, like you, I totally oppose Arnab’s penchant of posting mundane stuff on his blog from time to time, thus preventing you from unleashing your singular high-pitched toxic effluence”.

    That’s his prerogative. It is my prerogative to determine if posts about the life and death of a nation are more interesting than Bollywood related ones. In univrse Shan, I accept that the priorities may be reversed.

    @ Shan “Arnab, please take care from now on. At least 1 in 3 posts have to be religion related. After all, it’s HHBB’s blog too!”
    Ah. You are not subtly trying to convince Arnab that I am trying to highjack his forum? Even when I have always tried respecting his guidelines, going so far as to leave directed ad hominems unanswered in deference to his guidelines?

    I hope not, as no one will fall for such cheap antics !!

    PS : Arnabda, please make 1 out of 2 blogs religion related. Not one out of three. 🙂

  77. Jedimaster,

    I have answered your posts on Sindh & Sati & Jauhar in the “Imperialism Argument”. There are three posts, but two seem to be stuck. I will ask Arnabda to release.

    @ JM “HHBB neither do I claim to be the “alpha cat” of this blog nor do I suggest that I am a BIG shot consultant”.

    Good. Neither am I.

    @ JM “I must say that I have done a fair amount of consulting work for a number of fortune 100 firms. One of the things that I learned in my consulting career is called – “information overload”.

    And knowing you, one of the things your clients have learned after receiving your ‘consulting’ must be ‘information deficit”. Only kidding 🙂

    @ JM’s comments on Armenia
    I cited your point on the stoking of the quid pro quo paranoia to cause genocide (i.e do to them what they will do to you), which explains the Hutu-Tutsi violence. I then asked about the validity of your hypothesis in explaining the massacre of innocent Hindus in Bangladesh, and Armenians by the Turks.

    You have completely side-stepped the massacre of Hindus in Bangladesh by the Pakistani army & its supporters. It was a clear, clinically planned and executed tactic. No propaganda of inducing fear was required. Only the atavistic hatred of Hindus. I am amused that you do not comment on it.

    Anyway, Armenia. The genocide of Armenians was carried out primarily by the army, though in many places, especially the centre and east of the country, civilians participated with glee. The army had no fears about Turks being massacred by Armenians. It was a cold-hearted mass murder which started with the need to earn international respect by imposing assertion, and internally to merit the semblance of authority by a jaded, faded empire. It degenerated in to a genocide.

    That is the point I am making. A genocide does not require the propaganda of “fear of massacre” to convince its followers to commit the massacre. Hatred of the other, rather than fear of the other, suffices in many instances. And propaganda to relight the former rather than ignite the latter can invigorate communities to perpetrate genocide.

    Thus, you see, your hypothesis is only partially correct. 😉

  78. We are warming up real fast aren’t we?

    But shan & Jedi master: I think you should both retire your light-sabers and go fortune hunting, especially since atleast one of you is envious of HHBB’s money.

    Shan said: “I had an inkling that my post would somehow bring you back, like a bad penny.”

    I think when you replied to someone who asked to know why the posts were so civil, you knew you were crossing a line invoking HHBB. It was like a bowler who just after completing a bad delivery immediately knows that the batsman willl wallop it! SO no ‘inkling’ my chappie, you just asked for the whoppie!

    In all fairness, however idle HHBB may appear to some, he seems to have actually nailed all his detractors with his research. I think if no meaningful debate is possible, shan & JM should shut up. Or atleast stop getting personal (“I wish I had a wife…” etc)

  79. Hi Labourer,

    I really don’t know why Shan is envious of my money!! I have very little. I do perform a good job, but at an Indian salary, so even a relatively high post does not financially translate to much. I would bet that most of the people on this blogsite living & / or working abroad has wealth worth many mmany ultiples of mine.

    I investigated some roles in Oz & Canada, slightly lower than my current post, and the salaries ranged between 3 – 5 times what I earn. And salaries in Canada are a fraction of USA & UK.

    I sincerely hope JediMaster & Shan do not go ‘fortunehunting’, but continue with the discussion. They raise very interesting points. I think JediMaster’s point on the cause of genocides was brilliant. I did not fully agree with him, and pointed out where I think he needed to update his hypothesis. It was an exciting point and brilliant hypothesis nevertheless.

    JM further raised the Armenian genocide, which I have some knowledge on, so I hope we’ll continue the discussion.

    At the end of the day, its not about scoring cheap points, but understanding and appreciating the view of the other party, looking at the issue from a different perspective, and enhancing one’s knowledge as a result. And providing your views so the other party can do the same.

    As a result of this blog, I have gained so much knowledge (especially from WTF Ittaburi, Rishi & Hujur and others), learnt so much more about the world and about myself, both my strengths and weaknesses, and am a more developed person as a result. Thanks Arnabda for the wonderful opportunity your blogsite has provided to achieve this.

    For what its worth, it wasn’t Shan’s low-cost veiled jibes that prompted me to post. It was JediMawster who mentioned that my observations on Sindh was full of ‘lies’, and he provided some ‘examples’ as ‘proof’. I was somewhat curious to know why he thought so, so I posted, pointing out where and why has was wrong with his ‘examples’.

  80. Hara Hara Bom Bom,

    I see RTDM is fast getting back of the, er, good old days. 😛

    In your reply to Jedi MAster you say:
    “You have completely side-stepped the massacre of Hindus in Bangladesh by the Pakistani army & its supporters. It was a clear, clinically planned and executed tactic. No propaganda of inducing fear was required. Only the atavistic hatred of Hindus. I am amused that you do not comment on it.”

    Just wondering, do you have any figures of the number of Hindus killed by the Pakistani Army as opposed to just the number of Bangadeshis killed?

    “Just one fact. German WWII armies had Muslim divisions within them, albeit small. Many German generals fighting for Hitler expressed strong admiration for Islam, calling it ‘an ideal religion for soldiers’.”

    (Wry smile) Yes, I can just see it now. A Nazi Wehrmacht General:”We might be anti-Semetic but that Arab religion-terribly good stuff for the boys.”

    Jokes apart, any sources for this “strong admiration for Islam” that “many German generals” had?

    Hades.

    P.S.: In spite of shunning RTDM, at least you’ve been active here. Good show.

  81. @SC

    First of all I am not a commie.

    Secondly, I am not comparing Hindutva brigade with the Nazis; that would be insulting Nazis and giving way too much credit to the Hindutva brigade.

    I just used Nazis as an example to highlight that Hindutva brigade is using time tested propaganda tactics.

    Hindutva brigade is just a Nazi wannbe.

    @HHBB

    What you did in the post the “Imperialism Argument” was that you gave a monologue of your interpretation of history, which you claimed came from interpretation of Chachnama; which as I found out was a blatant lie.
    A simple google search proved this.

    And the Sati & Jauhar by Queen of Sindh, who was wedded to her own brother (contrary to your belief it was a loooove marriage), was not discussed in that post, so stop lying.

    //@ JM “HHBB neither do I claim to be the “alpha cat” of this blog nor do I suggest that I am a BIG shot consultant”.

    Good. Neither am I.//

    But your statements like:
    // the kool kat’s back. Time for the mice (or rats if you please) to take cover.
    Kool kat was on a business trip, but returned (exhausted) a few days ago. //
    Sure give an impression that you think so.

    @ HHBB: “You have completely side-stepped the massacre of Hindus in Bangladesh by the Pakistani army & its supporters.”

    Read my post, dude read my post – I said: “It seems to me that being a big shot consultant you know this trick rather well. I am not going to dignify your “half-truths” by responding to them, it takes way too much time, something that I am a little short of (you do seem to have a lot of it). Maybe big shot consultants do have a lot of free time. How would I know, I am not a big shot consultant.”

    @HHBB: “Anyway, Armenia. The genocide of Armenians was carried out primarily by the army, though in many places, especially the centre and east of the country, civilians participated with glee. The army had no fears about Turks being massacred by Armenians. It was a cold-hearted mass murder which started with the need to earn international respect by imposing assertion, and internally to merit the semblance of authority by a jaded, faded empire. It degenerated in to a genocide.”

    Once again – read my post. You reading skill are not very good for a top shot consultant. I clearly mentioned that Ottoman Empire launched a propaganda campaign “to present Armenians living in the Ottoman Empire as a threat to the empire’s security. Armenian solders as well as civilians were openly accused of siding with Russians.” In other words a fear was induced in the minds of Turks, civilians and soldiers alike, that Armenian are threat to their survival (A similar kind of threat that you are trying to propagate).

    Also, it was a cold-hearted mass murder but it was not done to earn international respect (even allies of Ottoman Empire during WW-I were appalled by it). And, no it didn’t degenerate into genocide; it was planned and executed to perfection like genocide.

    Hatred that you are referring to is just an outcome of this fear. It is not the root cause of mass murder but rather an effect of the propaganda of “fear of massacre”. But once this fear induced hatred reaches a critical level all hell breaks loose.

    Based on the above rational I re-iterate that all the genocides ever happened in this world have been justified by one common propaganda theme:

    “Do to them, what they will do to you, before they do it to you”

  82. To answer Hades’ question before HHBB talks about it further

    Information on Nazi and Islamist bedfellow- giri

    Many operations in the Balkans were conducted by Nazis with the support of Muslim recruits.

    Haji Amin-al Husseini, a Muslim leader was very close to the Nazi Reich. He was so influential that he convinced Albert Eichmann not to exchange German POWs with 5000 Jewish children from Hungary. Instead the Jews were sent to Poland to face certain death.

    The prestigious SS (which the Nazis used to consider akin to their special forces), was also staffed with Jihadis. The Hanjar Division of the SS was full of Bosian an Turkik Muslims and a training academy named “Mullah Academy” was established in Dresden by Himmler.

    [edited]

  83. @ Hades
    Regarding number of Hindus butchered by the Islamists in Bangladesh in 1971
    Go the the US library of Congress in Washington DC. Ask for the Senate Committee hearing archives.

    or read this

    Senator Edward Kennedy wrote in a report that was part of Senate Committee testimony dated November 1, 1971, “Hardest hit have been members of the Hindu community who have been robbed of their lands and shops, systematically slaughtered, and in some places, painted with yellow patches marked “H”. All of this has been officially sanctioned, ordered and implemented under martial law from Islamabad”.

    In the same report, Senator Kennedy reported that 80% of the refugees in India were Hindus and according to numerous international relief agencies such as UNESCO and WHO the number of East Pakistani refugees at their peak in India was close to 10 million. 2.47 million Hindus from East Pakistan are unaccounted for and can be considered dead”.

  84. @Labourer:

    “But shan & Jedi master: I think you should both retire your light-sabers and go fortune hunting, especially since atleast one of you is envious of HHBB’s money.”

    You have really hit the nail on the head! At the very basic level, my problem is an (ir)rational jealousy of HHBB’s money making capability, and maybe his wife’s relatives.

    Brilliant! How well you know me. 🙂

    @HHBB:

    Fortune hunting abroad seems a good option really. And the amount of information about relative pecuniary benefits of migrating to different countries that I have got from you through this forum, I could not have purchased even if I tried. Thanks.

    “Its not your post. I visit the blogsite when I have time and when I want to. As I said, you have an exaggerated opinion of yourself.”

    And then you spend 600 words individually responding to each sentence of my admittedly frivolous comment. Hahahahahaha…you really are precious.

    “You can always change your wife and get one who does.”

    You deal in ’em? Till when is the exchange offer on? 😀

  85. Khagen Das,

    I’ll have to refuse your plan of me flying to Washington, tempting as it is.

    Surely, that little quote from Kennedy, has sources on the net? Maybe even the report. Or an analysis of the report? Would be much obliged if you could provide them to me.

    Regarding the apparent Nazi admiration for Islam:

    “Many operations in the Balkans were conducted by Nazis with the support of Muslim recruits.”

    Ummm, the British Indian Army consisted largely of two religions: Hinduism and Islam (If you need sources I’d be happy to oblige)

    I’m lead to believe that they fought for the Brits in WW1 and 2.

    Then would the statement:” Many English generals fighting for the King expressed strong admiration for Islam/Hinduism’ be applicable too?

    “Haji Amin-al Husseini, a Muslim leader was very close to the Nazi Reich. He was so influential that he convinced Albert Eichmann not to exchange German POWs with 5000 Jewish children from Hungary. Instead the Jews were sent to Poland to face certain death.”

    5000 deaths? Is that all? Where would we put MAJ then? Seeing the number of Hindus the Brits allowed him to kill, they must *heart* Islam. 😛

    Anyways, sir, I really don’t have time for a protracted discussion right now. Apologise for that. Trust me, I miss my college days when time was in more abundant supply 😦

    However if you would please provide me sources, preferably on the net, for what you claim (rather than just claiming it) I’d be much obliged.

    Hades.

  86. Hades:
    Did you actually write that?

    Khagen Das only mentions incidence in which the Muslim leader convinced the Nazis not to exchange the 5000 Jews in a prisoner swap of German POWs.

    5000 Jewish children died because of that.

    I do not recall of incidences where the Britisher army, because of their love for Jihadis listened to them and allowed 5000 Hindus to be butchered.

    Yes, the Britishers did get browbeaten by the Jihadis to give them Pakistan (and the resultant human misery followed).
    But why blame the British, even our own governments are scared of Jihadis….

    which is exactly what the problem is.

  87. Reena Singh,

    Well in short, my point is that a third party getting killed is no proof of admiration for Islam. I’m sorry for not saying it in a simpler manner earlier.

    To actually get into the argument whether the killing of Hindus during partition can be blamed on the British or not would be a terrible diversion from this whole Nazi issue.

    And after hearing so much about the RSS love for the Nazis, I’d dearly love to read about the Nazi “admiration” for Islam. Hence, my rather simple request for some (preferably online) sources.

    For the record, I feel the Brits and the terribly rushed Mountbatten Plan must take a large share of the blame for the unprecedented Partition violence.

    Hades.

  88. @ Hades
    Well, you just need to do a little online research to agree with Khagen da and HHBB.

    Do read the book “The Sword of the Prophet” by Dr. Serge Trifkovic
    http://www.amazon.com/Sword-Prophet-History-Theology-Impact/dp/1928653111

    Excerpt from the book-
    “The Nazis provided Al Husseini (The Grand Mufti of The Al Aqsa Mosque, the second most important Islamic shrine) with luxurious accommodations in Berlin and a monthly stipend in excess of $10,000. In return, he regularly appeared on German radio touting the Jews as the “most fierce enemies of Muslims,” and implored an adoption of the Nazi “final solution” by Muslims. After the Nazi defeat at El Alamein in 1942, Al Husseini broadcast radio messages on Radio Berlin calling for continued Muslim resistance to Allied forces. In time, he came to be known as the “Fuhrer’s Mufti” and the “Arab Fuhrer.”

    Alija Izetbegovich, the leader of the Mujuahideen in Bosnia and the Father of the modern day Islamic state of Bosnia, was also involved with the Nazi Waffen SS.

    Dear Hades
    I dont think if such luxuries wee extended by the Nazis to any Hindutva RSS or Hindu Mahasabha leaders (thankfully).

    See you can make this a “ego issue” and continue the discussion like many people here do.

    [edited]

  89. Reena,

    I had a feeling that al-Husayni would feature prominently in this discussion.

    However, Reena, the al-Husayni episode is an example of realpolitik rather than admiration for Islam.

    I think you’ll agree that whether the Nazis admired Islam or not, cultivating al-Husayni, was of great benefit to them.

    If you find this difficult to understand, think of Bose. Bose was rather left-wing in his outlook. Yet the Nazis helped him. Why?

    “I don’t think if such luxuries wee extended by the Nazis to any Hindutva RSS or Hindu Mahasabha leaders (thankfully).”

    This seems to me a baffling statement. Why would the Nazis extend any kind of luxuries to the RSS at all? In India of the 1940s WHY would the Nazis get into bed with the RSS-an organisation which had strong pro-British leanings?

    One more thing. This whole attempt to try and prove that the Nazis admired Islam, seems to me an attempt to paint Islam as an ideology as intolerant as Nazism. Let me say, that at some level, I do agree with you. Some strains of Islam are particularly hateful, no doubt. However, where I diverge is that you feel that if the same hateful ideology is adopted by Hinduism it’s all hunky dory.

    Hades.

  90. I read the link provided by JM (http://tazeen-tazeen.blogspot.com/2008/11/impunity-to-hope.html) and the experience was hilarious.

    While HHBB is his usual vitrioloic self, demolishing single handedly the hordes crying for his blood, two things struck me:

    One, there are ‘nice’ Indians who went over to this pakistani blog and said pseudosecular things! OMG, I thought Mir Sadiq was a character from the past!

    Two, until polluted by HHBB’s pen, how polite & politically correct does the discussion look on this blogsite. Reminds me of the group discussions you participate in, where you want to strangulate the guy next to you, but you don’t because someone is listening to the whole GD!

    You know what is amazing, inspite of HHBB being all over the place, not one guy calls him the names which he has been called on this blogsite! BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING, Uh?! Shan you are needed there to rescue the pakis!

    By the way, though I completely disagree with the way HHBB has taken on this job of defending the hindus singlehandedly, I admire him tremendously for his gall and single minded endeavor. Take care dear friend, and for god’s sake remain anonymous!

  91. Sorry Hades, the credit for digging out HHBBs other outings should rightly belong to you. My apologies.

    BTW a general prescription for you: please read other peoples’ comments carefully before you type off in a hurry. I said “…until polluted by HHBB’s pen, how polite & politically correct does the discussion look on this blogsite” and also “…I completely disagree with the way HHBB has taken on this job of defending the hindus singlehandedly, I admire him tremendously for his gall and single minded endeavor”

    So where is this ‘debating skills’ coming in

    You have a past history on this kind of thing, ask Reena Singh about it. So please read the lines, not in-between!

    I also have an advise: just relax. Don’t get so worked up, and research better, so that your arguments look less muddled if you wish to look scholarly and deliberate.

  92. “I also have an advise (sic): just relax. Don’t get so worked up, and research better, so that your arguments look less muddled if you wish to look scholarly and deliberate.”

    Righto!
    .
    .
    .

    By the way, I was just kidding in my previous two posts. I guess that’s the problem with having a written conversation. Maybe a couple of emoticons would have conveyed my point better-my bad.

  93. @ Hades
    Ah… i knew that Bose’s name would surely come when I brought up Nazi and Islamist coziness.

    – Bose never called for slaughtering “anybody”, including the Britsh, as a “Final Solution”, from his German Radio addresses; unlike Husseini.

    – Bose never actually convinced Germans to send anybody to oncentration camps to die; like Husseini did.

    In fact Bose was quite uncomfortable with Hitler and his ideology; unlike Husseini, who was the second highest authority on Islam.

    Ah…so the RSS and Hindu Mahasabha had nothing to do with Nazis.

    Lets keep that for the record.

    Just wanted to say something about the topic of discussion.
    I feel that a Malegaon was inevitable and more of them might become reality if steps are quickly not taken, to stop India’s slide into a Jihadi paradise.

    Uniform Civil code
    Demographic slide
    non-stop Jihadi attacks
    Mini-Pakistans in every cities

    Afterall, India is the last place on earth that a Hindu could call home safely. If taht changes, atleast a few Hindus will act.

  94. While I admire you defending Bose, I’m disappointed in your understanding of what I’m trying to say.

    Let me repeat my words and hope you understand that I’m in no way castigating Bose or even comparing him with al-Husayni.

    “I think you’ll agree that whether the Nazis admired Islam or not, cultivating al-Husayni, was of great benefit to them.

    If you find this difficult to understand, think of Bose. Bose was rather left-wing in his outlook. So if the Nazis helped him does it mean the Nazis admired left-wing ideologies?”

    I have changed the last line with something that I think should make it easier for you to grasp.

    “Ah…so the RSS and Hindu Mahasabha had nothing to do with Nazis

    Lets keep that for the record.”

    Bravo! What a discovery! 😛

    I, er, admit it. You cornered me into it, Reena!

    I hang my head in shame and say, “the RSS and Hindu Mahasabha had nothing to do with Nazis” and reluctantly agree to “keep that for the record”.

    Too bad for the RSS, though. They really admired the Nazis. 😛

    Hades.
    The Times of Bullshit

  95. I understand your point, Hades

    The point being that Nazis worked with the Islamists more out of their own interest than out of a shared admiration for the commonalities between Nazism and Islam.

    But I think your point is not entirely right. And that is what I had been trying to prove before by

    – Giving the example of adding Jihadis to the ranks of the exhalted SS Waffen.

    – importance of a “Quisling” like Husseini in important decision-making like saving German POWs.

    See if Husseini and Islamists were just “Quislings”, whose value did not lay beyond strategic force-multiplication, then they would have been treated like Bose was treated ( no offence to SC Bose).

    Himmler was very particular about the ideological purity of the SS Waffen. The fact that Himmler considered Islamists to be SS material, speaks volumes about his trust in the single minded ideological viciousness of the Jihadis.

  96. Reena Singh,
    “Giving the example of adding Jihadis to the ranks of the exhalted SS Waffen.”
    Sigh! Do you know which divisions of the SS Waffen had “Jihadis”?
    al-Husayni’s contact with the SS Waffen was related to trying to raise an Arab SS Division to take care of the “Jewish Problem” in the Middle East and trying to recruit Bosnian Muslims for Muslim divisions of the SS Waffen.
    Do read up on the 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar and its composition.
    Unlike what you have been led to believe, Nazis and Muslims weren’t fighting shoulder to shoulder
    al-Husayni and indeed Muslims were very much on the periphery of the German war effort, but they were there nonetheless there mainly due to the British possession of Palestine etc and their usefulness as cannon fodder.
    This ideological bed fellowship that you talk of is nothing but bunk, I’m afraid.
    In fact, in the 1930s Germany refused to help the Palestinian Leaders like al-Husayni precisely so as to not antagonise the British.
    Their tactics changed after the onset of the War precisely as a result of expediency, nothing more and nothing less.
    ***
    I can’t even believe that I’m actually having a conversation with someone who thinks that the Nazis admired Islam and an Arab like al-Husayni! Imagine that!
    Please do go and read up on the theories of Race that the Nazis believed in and the definition of the word Semitism.

    “- importance of a “Quisling” like Husseini in important decision-making like saving German POWs.”

    I would very much like to learn about this incident, Reena.
    How, where and when was al-Husayni allowed in “important decision-making like saving German POWs.”

    This should be good.

    Hades

  97. Reena Singh,
    “Giving the example of adding Jihadis to the ranks of the exhalted SS Waffen.”
    Sigh! Do you know which divisions of the SS Waffen had “Jihadis”?

    al-Husayni’s contact with the SS Waffen was related to trying to raise an Arab SS Division to take care of the “Jewish Problem” in the Middle East and trying to recruit Bosnian Muslims for Muslim divisions of the SS Waffen.

    Do read up on the 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar and its composition.

    Unlike what you have been led to believe, Nazis and Muslims weren’t fighting shoulder to shoulder

    al-Husayni and indeed Muslims were very much on the periphery of the German war effort, but they were there nonetheless there mainly due to the British possession of Palestine etc and their usefulness as cannon fodder.

    This ideological bed fellowship that you talk of is nothing but bunk, I’m afraid.

    In fact, in the 1930s Germany refused to help the Palestinian Leaders like al-Husayni precisely so as to not antagonise the British.

    Their tactics changed after the onset of the War precisely as a result of expediency, nothing more and nothing less.

    ***
    I can’t even believe that I’m actually having a conversation with someone who thinks that the Nazis admired Islam and an Arab like al-Husayni! Imagine that!

    Please do go and read up on the theories of Race that the Nazis believed in and the definition of the word Semitism.

    “- importance of a “Quisling” like Husseini in important decision-making like saving German POWs.”

    I would very much like to learn about this incident, Reena.

    How, where and when was al-Husayni allowed in “important decision-making like saving German POWs.”

    This should be good.

    Hades

  98. Hi all,

    A number of important questions have been asked, including the Nazi views on Islam, Al Huseyni & Muslim Nazi armies, the causes of the Armenian genocide, and the impact of propaganda.

    It will require a number of comments to answer all. I will deal with them one at a time. For now, I will answer the Nazi views on Islam. Later on, if I have time, and if I believe there is still interest in the blogsite, I will answer the others too.

    I will number my comments, as sometimes technical problems arise and individual posts get stuck, only to be released later. So if I post, 1,2 and 3, the 2nd may be stuck if it contains many links etc. A reader will first see 1 & 3, and miss 2, and lose the sequence. When GB intervenes to release 2, readers may have moved on, not realising the sequence is restored. To control this, I will number them as follows :

    A : COMMENTS TO OTHERS
    A1 : Hades
    A2 : Laborer
    A3 : Shan

    B : NAZI ADMIRATION FOR ISLAM
    B1 : Introduction and context
    B2 : HITLER’S COMMENTS on Islam
    B3 : HIMMLER’S COMMENTS on Islam
    B4 : Other Nazis’ views, & post war scenario
    B5 : Modern neo-nazi links with Islam
    B6 : Comment on the sources (very imp.)
    B7 : Conclusion

    Later on, as said above, if I get time, I will post

    C : NAZI SUPPORT FOR ISLAMIC MOVEMENTS
    D : JediMaster’s latest comments on SINDHI HISTORY
    E : PROPAGANDA & THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE

    Hopefully, this should answer all queries raised.

  99. A1 : COMMENTS TO HADES
    =======================
    @ HADES : P.S.: “In spite of shunning RTDM, at least you’ve been active here. Good show.” http://tazeen-tazeen.blogspot.com/2008/11/impunity-to-hope.html

    HADES, I went to the site, and found it hilarious. There’s someone over there calling himself “Hara hara bom bom SAID”, posting quite stern and wince-worthy stuff on Islam. His posts are riddled with “Hinduism had the BALLs to do this” and “BALLs to do that”. Bless my heart, but I have never visited that site.

    Now, why is someone posting under my name?

    1. They may want me to rush to that site claiming it isn’t me …. and thus unwittingly reveal my IP

    2. They may be setting me up for a spectacular fall on that site… they will use that to browbeat any post I make here by associating it to “HHBB’s disastrous hara-kiri on the tazeen site”.

    3. They may be an admirer, or just someone with a coincidentally identical name … but I doubt that 🙂

    Rest assured, Hades, I am as bemused as you by comments on tazeen attributed to me. Neither did I post them, nor have they been lifted from any of my works.

    Khagen Das has been brilliant in providing a strong source for the massacre of Hindus in Bangladesh (THANKS KHAGEN), so I am not commenting on it.

  100. A2 : COMMENTS TO LABORER
    =======================
    Hi Laborer, thanks for your support, though some of your mixed comments were painful :

    @ Labourer : “While HHBB is his usual vitrioloic self”
    HHBB : Ouch. 🙂 Please note comments to Hades in A1 above. I’ve never posted anything on the tazeen site.

    @ Labourer : “You know what is amazing, inspite of HHBB being all over the place, not one guy calls him the names which he has been called on this blogsite!”

    HHBB : I have not posted under the name HHBB on any other website. I have used other oen-names.

    On one I proved that Thuggee, a criminal act luridly associated with Hinduism, had far more Muslim followers than Hindus in it !!

    On another, I defended Rajaram against Witzel & Farmer’s idiotic rantings in “The Hindu” on the Indus seal controversy. Rajaram had been careless and negligent in one part of his work. Witzel and Farmer had been dishonest, clumsy and what seemed fairly ignorant in their entire invective.

    @ Labourer : “By the way, though I completely disagree with the way HHBB has taken on this job of defending the hindus single-handedly”

    HHBB : Owww, Ouch. Painful .. like the “death of thousand small cuts”

    I have no delusions of grandeur that I can ever defend the Hindus single-handedly. If anything, I am winding down my limited efforts.

    I am interested in allegations made ad-nauseum by Hindu haters for many, many years, allegations that even basic research, if properly conducted, can explode dramatically. Thus my urge to express my views.

    @ Labourer : I admire him (HHBB) tremendously for his gall and single minded endeavour.”
    HHBB : Thanks. 🙂

  101. A3 : COMMENTS TO SHAN
    ===================
    @ Shan : … HHBB spends 600 words individually responding to each sentence of my admittedly frivolous comment. Hahahahahaha…you really are precious.

    HHBB : Is this so? A 10 second word-check reveals you are way off mark. Your post of Nov 19 (10:12) am makes many allegations against me, and comprises 162 words. My response (Nov 19, 12:58 am) involved 253 words. So 253 words to respond to a 162 word allegation.

    It is said that a three word allegation requires a minimum of six to respond. So : “You are poor” requires “No I’m not. I have Rs 9 crore” This is the classic 1:2 allegation:answer dialogue model. If further details are required, the ratio rises. So a response of one & half times the allegation (253 words vs 163) isn’t bad.

    So it is ‘not’ 600 words per sentence as you allege. I know seculars have a nasty habit of exaggerating beyond the wildest of all wild dreams …. That is why they are losing credibility.

    @ Shan : “You deal in wives? Till when is the exchange offer on?

    HHBB : No, Shan. I do not deal in wives. I am also deliriously happy with my own wife and kids. You were the one sighing and expressing dissatisfaction with your wife’s lack of connections.

    Good luck in whatever you decide to do with her.

  102. Since this whole discussion is going this way, let me add to the frivolties too…

    @HHBB: my comment was not mixed but positive. I said I didn’t like your method that’s all. If you, like Hades, break this up into pieces and read each piece as a criticism, but not looking at the comment as a whole, then it will be “death of thousand small cuts” as you say…

    Forget it, whether it is you or your namesake, you doing a great job. Do not bother about side actors like us. Just engage the villain. We are all behind you!

  103. hara hara bom bom,

    Reading your comments is awesome fun, my man, seriously. It’s quite the stress buster!

    Actually whoever it was that posted those comments on that blog was named ‘hara hara bom bom’. The ‘said’ is a default thingy added by blogger. You’ll find a ‘said’ after every person’s name there. 😛

    And I absolutely love your paranoia! The whole people-plotting-to-reveal-your-IP or setting-you-up-for-a-“spectacular fall”—brilliant, quite brilliant!

    Jokes apart, you should consider using a method for masking your IP. Most of them are quite easy to use and even free. I’m sure that’ll give you some peace of mind.

    Hades
    The Times of Bullshit

  104. Khagen Das has been brilliant in providing a strong source for the massacre of Hindus in Bangladesh (THANKS KHAGEN), so I am not commenting on it.

    And I’ll repeat what I said to Mr. Das:

    I’ll have to refuse your plan of me flying to Washington, tempting as it is.

    Surely, that little quote from Kennedy, has sources on the net? Maybe even the report. Or an analysis of the report? Would be much obliged if you could provide them to me.

    Hades.
    The Times of Bullshit

  105. @HHBB:

    “HHBB : Is this so? A 10 second word-check reveals you are way off mark. Your post of Nov 19 (10:12) am makes many allegations against me, and comprises 162 words. My response (Nov 19, 12:58 am) involved 253 words. So 253 words to respond to a 162 word allegation.

    It is said that a three word allegation requires a minimum of six to respond. So : “You are poor” requires “No I’m not. I have Rs 9 crore” This is the classic 1:2 allegation:answer dialogue model. If further details are required, the ratio rises. So a response of one & half times the allegation (253 words vs 163) isn’t bad.

    So it is ‘not’ 600 words per sentence as you allege. I know seculars have a nasty habit of exaggerating beyond the wildest of all wild dreams …. That is why they are losing credibility.”

    🙂 🙂 Uff..too much. Hilarious. Of course I was exaggerating. As you do. Secularism or fundamentalism have nothing to do with it. And again, so much time and energy spent on refuting an obvious exaggeration? Wow man!

    “I am also deliriously happy…”

    Delirious is a very apt word indeed!

  106. Hi Greatbong!

    firstly my kudos for commenting upon such a sensitive issue. That a disgruntled movie fanatic also has acumen for understanding & presenting his views cogently pleases me more than your routine flagging of bolly-f**kin-wood movies.
    Coming to the point, this expose really shocked me.
    Killing innocent people in the name of any religion is not only a heinous crime, its stupid, irrational. Though a big chasm between the two community does exist & its only widening with every jihadi blast, i believe the problem is more political in nature. If Hindu extreme right-wingers started bombing just like their Islamic counterparts, any self-righteous expression of anger & injustice by Hindus would be harmed. All the malice that has been accumulating against Jihadi Islamic terrorists will be questionable as “clean up your act first” looks would be seen all over. A big chunk of pansy, pseudo-secular, pseudo-liberal mass which was gradually getting anxious with every other Islamic Jihadi attack on our freedom would again get a chance to train their guns at truly secular, justice-demanding Hindus (which are so easily & rather unwittingly termed by media as ‘fundamentalists’ & what not). The point I want to bring home is we may be losing perspective while criticizing Sadhvi & Co-accused. While her (supposed) act is condemnable, this kind of outburst of vengeful emotions may be attributed to relentless injustice dished to Hindus. The only correct way to get their rightful place & respect for us Hindus in our so-called democracy HAS TO BE WITHOUT violence. Only political unity & political power can do that to the majority community. Such efforts of vengeance look juvenilely to the point of ridiculous. Battling pseudo-secular politics should be our aim, not killing aam junta.
    Digressing a bit, few days ago i read about atrocities in WWII. To say that they were inhumanly is to put it mildly, but what shocked me more is an ordinary, simple peace-loving person has to suffer for the bloody whims of their evil rulers. Incidentally i also happened to watch two great war movies Saving Private Ryan & Platoon. That has only made me a pacifist (who doesnt say war is evil but it should avoided at all costs)& believer in saying “violence is the last refuge of the incompetent”

    PS:btw, you could certainly review Dasvidaniya, worth watching.
    PPS: why do watch movies like dostana & kidnap in first place? :)))

  107. Hi all,
    I posted 7 comments (B1 to B7) on how the Nazis tried to utilise the Islamic card, and how many zealously obliged. This is to answer Hades’ question on the Nazi views on Islam.

    My 7 posts contain clear references on Hitler and Himmler’s comments on Islam.

    Most of them seem to be stuck in moderation, so I have asked GB to release.

  108. http://www.hinduhumanrights.org/Bangladesh/kennedy.htm
    Hades, something for you on the Hindus in Banglaesh question.

    On the Malegaon blast thing,
    The newspapers are being leaked “fake” information by someone in ATS without proper deliberation or thought.

    A lot of untrue information that is floating around in the media, is fake news that pertains to non existant operations and involves national security.

    An example of that, is the news that came out about Lt, Col Purohit’s so-called involvement with Hindus in Bengal. It talks about Purohit training Hindu youth from Bangladesh in subversion.

    As a Human rights activist, I work with many of the people in Bengal whose names were mentioned in the news.

    NO such training operation exist and most Hindu youth who come from Bangladesh are poor people seeking protection from persecution and rape.
    Such dangerous and irresponsible newspaper reports compromises the safety of the already tormented Hindu minorities of Bangladesh.

    I shudder to think that integrity of agencies like Maharashtra ATS has been copromised. At best this is a nasty game of misdirection to satisfy the whims of political masters before elections. At worst, it is some unfriendly foreign agency pulling the strings of this gullible nation.

    I am sure there were other fake reports being leaked to the media about Swami Dayanand Pandey as well.

    But I can confirm only the one about Bengal.

  109. Hi Hades,

    PARANOID? MOI? N’EST CEST PAS !!
    ——————
    By pointing out that the HHBB posting on another blogsite is an imposter, I don’t think I was being paranoid. Someone is impersonating me on another forum, I am vaguely amused and curious as to why, so I just shared this with you as you were the first one to gullibly fall in to their trap. Not paranoia.

    I’m certainly not apprehensive about any of you guys … I adore you 🙂 You’re rogues, but cuddly and fangless ones at that 🙂

    BANGLADESH
    ————-
    I am frankly surprised at your request on the Bangladesh massacres. There is a lot of information available on the internet on this. You should have the courtesy of doing a bit of research yourself before relentlessly crying for info like a spoilt child.

    For what it’s worth, I refer to some names that will give you total fatalities :

    D.Smith says 500,000
    Hartman: 1,000,000
    Kuper (refers to Chaudhuri’s study) : 3,000,000
    Porter: 1,000,000 to 2,000,000
    Rummel: 1,500,000.
    Eckhardt: 1,000,000 civ. 500,000 mil. = 1,500,000 (Bangladesh)
    Official figures by the government of Bangladesh is 3,000,000.

    Now google these yourself.

    From that, if you consider the fact that Hindus were considered a special target (as confirmed by interviews with Pakistani soldiers, eyewitnesses, as well as the singling out of Hindu houses with using yellow H signs in many places), you can get an idea.

    This is further supported by the population gap between the Hindu population before the genocide, and the Hindu population (left in Bangladesh & refugees in India) after the genocide.

    estimates vary wildly (& there is vested interest in making them so). But even taking a ‘respectable’ figure of 1.5m deaths, the murder of 1.0m Hindus seems highly probable.

  110. Hi Shan,
    In our little shideshow parrying, your humour is getting progressively poorer, so I’ll leave you to shadow-box and soliloquise!! 🙂

  111. By pointing out that the HHBB posting on another blogsite is an imposter, I don’t think I was being paranoid.

    Not the act of pointing it out. The reasons you gave are what I found rather, well, paranoid. The whole they-are-out-to-get my-IP thing.

    Oh, well, no use dragging this on. Let’s just get ourselves an IP masker and move on.

    Someone is impersonating me on another forum, I am vaguely amused and curious as to why, so I just shared this with you as you were the first one to gullibly fall in to their trap.

    Well, I admit I was a bit confused due to the fact that this chap was actually praising Gandhi. However, as the rest of the people were Pakistanis, they didn’t realise this diversion from typical Indian fundamentalist behaviour.

    And why do you think that this person would necessarily be is impersonating you? The chances are small but it could be a coincidence. The phrase isn’t an uncommon one, at least.

    Hades.
    The Times of Bullshit

  112. Regarding the Bangladesh thingy.

    I see your knowledge in this matter is vast and incisive.

    In fact, coincidently, it is also exactly the knowledge contained on this web page. 😛

    But even taking a ‘respectable’ figure of 1.5m deaths, the murder of 1.0m Hindus seems highly probable.

    Hmmm, so you say a figure of 1 mln is highly probable. Yet you’ve bandied about the figure of 2 mln on this site.

    Also, you have given me no sources as to this “highly probable” figure.

    I am frankly surprised at your request on the Bangladesh massacres. There is a lot of information available on the internet on this. You should have the courtesy of doing a bit of research yourself before relentlessly crying for info like a spoilt child.

    Ad hominem for a request for information? Not done, my man, not done.

    Well anyways, I still await some sources on this new and revised figure of one mln Hindu deaths.

    Best of luck.

    Khagen Das: 2.47 million Hindus from East Pakistan are unaccounted for and can be considered dead

    I refer to this because you endorsed this. If you disagree this could also be meant to repudiate Khagen Das.

    2.47 mln Hindus killed when one of the largest estimates of the number of people killed itself is 3 mln–which is by the BD govt themselves, hence obviously inflated.

    Whoa!

    From that, if you consider the fact that Hindus were considered a special target (as confirmed by interviews with Pakistani soldiers, eyewitnesses, as well as the singling out of Hindu houses with using yellow H signs in many places), you can get an idea.

    True, true. There’s no doubt about the fact that Hindus were targeted specially by the Pakistan Army. I doubt there’d be anybody who disagrees with that, not even the Pakistanis!

    But let’s not bandy about random figures about the number of people killed. Let’s try and stick to the truth as far as possible, sir.

    Hades,
    The Times of Bullshit

  113. Hades,

    I provided three possible reasons (including the coincidence). Are there any other you can think of?

    If not, then citing the 3 available possibilities, is being analytical, not paranoid.

    I agree with you when you admit you are a bit confused. I disagree with the extent of confusion you cite.

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