If you are the caretaker of the store and the owner finds that inventory has been pilfered and the cash register emptied, there are two options open to you. Fall at the feet of the maalik begging forgiveness or rip one’s kurta and accuse the owner of having tried to force himself on you.
The Congress has gone for the last option. At a time when the government presides over the kind of corruption that actually makes one feel sorry for the guys who made small change during Bofors, the Congress have trained their guns on the BJP for their support of the “Bling Bling Rappah”, showing that those those who stay in glass houses can throw stones if only there is no one outside who can throw the stone back. And the BJP for long has been exactly that—–a toothless, leaderless entity, a political Nirupa Roy who sits at the steps of the temple waiting for God to come down and restore her eyesight.
If there is any lesson from the recent elections in Bihar, it is that even in a place defined by votebank politics, there really is nothing as powerful as genuine development and performance. One would have hoped that after the ass-whopping in Bihar, the Congress would….but who am I kidding, jab hum naheen sudhre to tum kaise sudhroge. Instead what it has done is amped up the rhetoric that their opponents are terrorists. Yes not communal. That’s so 90s. Now they are terrorists.
Politics is a dirty game and if the Congress thinks, that with sympathetic mass media just a phonecall away, it can twist the narrative through a campaign of aggressive FUD then it has every right to try it. But when Digvijay Singh, at the release of a book called 26/11 RSS ki Saazish, hints at Karkare’s death being RSS ka saazish and by extension the whole 26/11 or when Rahul Gandhi equates the RSS with SIMI or says, to the American ambassador no less, that Hindu extremism is more of a threat than Islamic terrorism ( the equivalent of saying that Ravindra Jadeja is a greater all-rounder than Sir Gary Sobers, after all both are left-handed), they aren’t just being virulently divisive and outright wrong but are doing the country immense harm, giving Dawn, Jung and Zaid Hameed references in their related work section, trivializing Islamic terror in India and undermining their own government’s efforts, half-assed they be, in fighting the problem. Political mud-throwing is one thing. This is something totally different.
One wonders why. What is the core of the Congress’s “RSS is worse than SIMI” strategy? Does it honestly believe that the few hardcore Muslim votes it thinks it will win through this rhetoric, in places like Azamgarh and JNU, be worth the trouble (since the majority of Indian Muslims, perhaps one of the least radicalized communities in the world today, also won’t buy something this outrageous)? Does it think that they can genuinely convince Americans to put RSS on a terror watch list like a bunch of “agitators” got Modi refused a visa? Or is it no longer about strategy but more a sign of desperation, driven by rage—the core Right wing supporters (and one just needs to listen on twitter on one day to know what I mean) have been at the heart of some of the very personal nastiness directed at the Gandhis to which Rahul Gandhi is lashing out, under the guidance of the pathogenically “liberal” Digvijay Arundhati Singh (he is notoriously soft on Naxal terror also)?
As I was reading Rahul Gandhi and Digvijay Singh’s statements and letting their outrageous audacity sink in, I kept wondering to myself—would anyone in the US political mainstream ever attend an event of 9/11 conspiracy theorists? Would any liberal Democrat politician with Presidential ambitons, say that since Tim McVeigh and the man who drove his plane into the IRS building were Christians, Christian terror was a bigger threat to the security of the US than Islamic terror? Would anyone even dare trivializing 9/11 without risk of political suicide? No they wouldn’t.
In India though they can. Which is sad. Very sad.
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First!! Well said. Disappointing….i expected rahul to speak up during corruption but no…but terrorism related to RSS he has!!
Interesting commentary 🙂
Precisely the flow of thought going on in my mind when these things were going on
well said arnab..diggie singh and his gandhi’ friends in the congress are doing great harm to the country thru their nasty comments
So true. The “Sab chalta hai” attitude is eating the country.
Supershot!! Diggi and Gandhi are not only outrageous but working against national interest to further there narrow political interest. Its nothing but attempt to divert attention from serial scams and 2G mega scam done right under nose of “man with integrity and wife of caesar”. Its high time BJP ups ante and takes congress head on rather getting distracted by outrageous charges of gandhi and diggi variety.
Quite right ! We seem to be in a state of TIANA (there is absolutely no alternative). The indifference of Great Indian Middle Class towards the cesspool that is Indian Politics is surely partly to blame
But this is a very recent development, this some sort of weird ‘liberal’ self-loathing. Earlier in India too this sort of madness would be political suicide but India has become a totally confused nation. On one hand we have no comprehension of political correctness but we sue every movie because they hurt someone’s sentiment.
In this case I also blame the BJP for behaving like Nirupa Roy. And Congress is instrumental in further polarizing a country where people only find reasons to hate each other.
The reason that it is so trivialised is that although the urban mindspace is dominated by terror and communalism, the rural vote banks that actually come out to vote don’t give a rats ass about terror.
The voting india cares about the caste leaders that are nominated, the food guarantee and the bottle of local liquor.
If the ‘core right wing supporters’ are active anywhere other than in RSS publications, the very few right-leaning media houses like The Pioneer and the bloggers and tweeters, I missed them. From these, the former two have been active even before the Congress’ shifting of gears. According to your line of reasoning, what could have brought about the change would be the right wing expressions on blogs and twitter. That was my question, do you really think these media are powerful enough?
About the ‘objective’ part, that tweet was not put in the best possible manner. What I meant was that more citing more facts, quoting more figures and providing reference links would have made this post more informative. Although ultimately everyone have their own writing style and it’s a pleasure reading you even now.
“Does it honestly believe that the few hardcore Muslim votes it thinks it will win through this rhetoric, in places like Azamgarh and JNU….”‘
If it is any consolation for you, Congress is by and large irrelevant in JNU Politics. Obviously you don’t see much difference between Azamgarh and JNU. Your the eagerness to resort to such crude generalizations to milk a few laughs is not much different from Politicians trying to conjure up “Hindu terror” to put the RSS in a tight spot? I share your indignation, but we all know what spawns such stupidity.
Dear Srinivas,
Your ability to interpret “JNU” as precisely “JNU” (which is why you think I am trying to say Congress is trying to win the JNU student elections) and nothing else leaves me in the state of…
Go to the campus of my alma mater JU and you will see Rahul Gandhi and Diggy Raja’s statements getting much applause even though they are not Congress.
I have the same question, who are Congress doing it for? Purely from a political angle, do they really think the minority votes are so important while risking the majority votes?
> a political Nirupa Roy who sits at the steps of the temple waiting for God to come down
Priceless!
The lack of a good alternative to the congress is indeed a major bugbear in today’s politics. For my part, I’ll be voting for the new kids on the block. Professional’s party, JP’s Loksatta, etc. These guys are still some notches away from getting corrupt. A regular publicity provided to these folks might help their cause, or might make the BJP reconsider its present situation. GB, please write about them.
Aniket,
With the recent Radia tapes wherein the media houses tried to brush the whole incident behind a wall of silence, it was largely online outrage that led to some mention of it. Having said that, I am not presuming that Rahul cares for what is said about him online. If you have seen videos of “right wing” rallies, they attack Rahul Gandhi pretty personally and this just might be his way of lashing out, on a personal level back at that. Because I don’t think there are very many votes in this kind of virulent baiting of the Right, nothing close to what the Congress needs to be in power when the time for allocating 4G comes.
Arnab you have come out with a stunner. This might be your best article till date(Leave out The Andaman one). BJP sad, media sadder, Congress saddest. This frm the same party (well not really) which was twice presided by Subhas Chandra Bose…its a farce.
I think many of you may be unpleasantly surprised at the numbers of people of a certain religion, that would love to vote for Rahul baba, if he actually- not only banned RSS but also banned Hindu religion itself.
Like Tom Friedman, you are underestimating the followers of “the religion of peace” in India. I know it is not a very comforting thing to think about,(certainly not as comforting as couch-bashing Pakistan, LET and ISI); but its better to be real and unpleasant than be confy and foolish.
Hmm, even the right wing rallies have been there since independence, although their targets may now have shifted to Rahul Gandhi, whose reaction to these crass personal attacks are different from his predecessors. If we have such reactive ‘future PMs’ who take an issue risen during public rallies right to diplomatic levels, then God help us.
My theory is that the Congress is on the defensive. It has been driven into a corner by the irrepressible corruption charges against it and needs an issue to lash the BJP with. Now, the BJP has been out of power at the center, and Congress raising the issue of financial irregularities in the BJP governed states would be, as you put it elsewhere, like comparing Ravindra Jadeja to Gary Sobers. So the only issue which remains is communalism and ‘Hindu terror’ which the Congress is beating to death to take public attention away from its astronomical corruption.
The tragedy is that leave alone capable leaders, BJP doesn’t even have capable speakers who can put the Congress’ hyperbole in the right perspective. A true Nirupa Roy, really.
Well said!! Absolutely ridiculous of Rahul Gandhi and Digvijay singh to compare Islamic terror to RSS(best exemplified by your Ravinder Jadeja Gary Sobers comparison).
What is even more disturbing than this is the comparison of RSS to Hitler’s Nazi’s. The RSS are no saints, but the last time I checked the Nazis killed close to 6 million Jews!
These kind of outrageous claims are depressing to say the least an reflects very poorly on Rahul Gandhi, and the Congress as a whole. What is most disturbing is that this is not political suicide in India. Will we ever see the light in this country away from these corrupt politicians who can see only their personal interests.
Nice precise read although some links (echo aniket) would’ve made it more informative.
I feel ‘targetting Hindutva’ has been a major con-propaganda for 2010. Starting from Chidambram’s remarks, echoed by Gandhis, Pranab Babu and all in the line. It has been the prime focus in all the con-meetings/plenaries this year. Are they putting a lot in one basket to snatch the tiger from comrades and retain their TN-ally in 2011?
Hey that was a refreshing read, congress is indeed playing a dangerous game.let’s hope when the chip falls india still is standing
@greatbong,
Is it really true that you give ipods to the first commenter?(or used to give, or is it an inside joke)?
Mm no. Never gave. Never will.
Hey, thanks for the quick reply 🙂
Long time reader.. Am not too updated about the current affairs, so have nothing pertinent to post for now 🙂
Great post, btw 🙂
In other countries, when someone or someone party is under fire it falls back on nationalistic rhetoric. Congress just resorts to communal politics.
@ Surendra
> I have the same question, who are Congress doing it for? Purely from a political angle, do they really think the minority votes are so important while risking the majority votes?
Unfortunately, Minority and Majority in this country are not based on religion. Majorities in India are the pseudo-secularists to whom such statements are fed. These are the people who do not want to vote for communal/terrorist parties. Little do they know that they are being played by the secular parties.
Great Bong…*Bows*..for speaking the truth always.
“BJP…a political Nirupa Roy who sits at the steps of the temple waiting for God to come down and restore her eyesight.” – hahahahhaa..cant stop laughing
well said.. and add to that Sibal today says BJP lost nation 1.6 lakh crs rupees as well.. congress is just attacking its opponents to hide their impotencies
I dare not imagine the fate of this country with Rahul Gandhi slated as the next PM. This is pseudo secularism (minority appeasement) at the cost of the majority defined.
And you know what the saddest part is??
The majority re-electing the Congress and bringing it to power.
Aditi made a good point about people suing film makes for hurting sentiments. Sadly,truth is always hurting.
As per me, Saffron terror(as thy call it) is comparable to petty criminal activity whereas Islamist terror has international connections and is a matter of global concern.
About PARAM PUJANIYA RAHULJI, I doubt if he can stand in a debate against a SIMI activist,leave apart the communists and RSS activists.
Communists and RSS ideologues can rape him from all possible places,any number of times in case he attempts to debate with them.
Its easy to say “SIMI and RSS are the same” , “Communism is a failed ideology” and then hide under Janardhan Dwivedi’s kurta or send congress’s paid/professional lairs like Manish Tiwari and Manu Singvi to unleash a string of meaningless arguments.
Can we all decide, not to vote for anyone who belongs to a political family or is a bahu-beti/jamai or somewhat closely connected person, no matter it is Congree, BJP, ShivSena etc?
Lets qualification be the criteria and not the lastname. One person is making such statements, with half knowledge.
In my opinion, that could be a way to stop the government from becoming a family owned business.
Your thoughts?
Agreed. It was sickening to hear these kind of statements from both Digvijay and Rahul Gandhi (even for a person like me who has a slight tilt towards the Congress than the BJP because of “lack of alternatives” or whatever). On one hand, they accuse others of being “un-secular” and on the other, they make these downright, irrefutable divisive statements. It was infuriating to hear this non-sense from these people.
And to top it all, the Congress (or at least some top leaders of it) seem to have gone into a delusions-of-grandeur mode. I’m sure you must have read of this – http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/article965217.ece
Plain WTF. Taking power for granted.
@GreatBong,
Very nice article. You have covered all the points plaguing our political system today. Completely agree with your take on the BJP for it’s not taking on the government head on, but rather beating its chest and crying loud.
The above line is actually a set of many questions. The fact tells many untold, but mostly known stories.
Too bad that this Rahul Gandhi will someday occupy the helm of the Government, just because there is no strength in the opposition party.
The core issue here is the difference between the voting public and those who can understand the import of such remarks. The latter- the middle class- are too busy ensuring they get home safe from their jobs,send their kids to good engineering schools-and don’t really turn up at the polls. The voting public comprises people that are fighting for existence – and vote for the person who promises 5 rs/ kg rice. Bihar has shown that this can change-but probably things need to get that bad first.
There are just too many stakeholders in Congress to let it die so easily. Will the ‘common man’ ever understand this: http://bit.ly/idmii9
Just as when you think they were getting stronger and stronger they make the mistake. I see congress making that mistake now.
Hi Arnab,
Allow me to nitpick.
1. Wasn’t RG’s statement something along the lines of indigenous hindu terrorism (in response to external Islamic terrorism) is going to be more dangerous than indigenous islam terrorism (in support of external terrorism).
2. This was said in a private conversation with US ambassador which was never supposed to be made public. How is that vote bank politics?
Baba(Rahul Gandhi)’s mother says that our PM is a holy cow and that those pointing a finger at him are despicable. Well I can only say that he is the Prime Minister that wasn’t! http://www.mayanklive.com/2010/12/prime-minister-that-wasnt.html
@Sudipto, Pratish, Pankhuri, Aniket and the “Nirupa Roy = BJP” supporters
Given BJP’s record in power in the Center as well as most states, is is more than capable to be a better alternative to Congress.
And if you do a leader to leader comparison, you will find better leaders in BJP than in Congress.
It is partly because of people with attitudes as yours that the mainstream media has managed to continue to successfully hoodwink people and promote Congress and other corrupt pseudo secular parties.
And Pratish Gandhi, if all these years you had supported the Congress (until the Rahul Gandhi incident), then I think your outrage may just be a passing phase. It will go away. I am sure you will return to your sycophant loving, corruption supporting, pseudo-secular ways soon.
@all
The RSS is a towering institution of Indian nationalism and calm selfless service. It was not built by the media or politicians, it cannot be destroyed by the media or the politicians. Its strength comes from generations of grassroot based disciplined workers who value sacrifice and service more than a revolving chair and a bottle of bisleri and microphone.
It has been so for 90 years and will continue to be so.
Media propped Diggis and Rahuls will come, do their delusional caricature and go. RSS will remain unphased.
Rahul,
Remember this?
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/RSS-is-fanatical-like-banned-outfit-SIMI–Rahul/articleshow/6699305.cms
Hi Arnab,
Same thing, isn’t he entitled to his opinion. If he thinks that both are dangerous, let him think and say so. It is not as if he is equating RSS to LeT.
Liked the comparisons!
On a slightly related note, did you check this interesting news about “meeting up with ‘intellectuals'”?
http://www.ndtv.com/article/india/tamil-film-industry-lines-up-for-rahul-74157
@khujur –
You seem to be awfully confident about my likes/dislikes based on a bare few lines which I typed out here. I wish I could be so confident about myself too [:)].
And as far as leader-to-leader comparison goes, sure. One cannot find better people than (the late) Pramod Mahajan, (the once upon a time “senior leader”) Uma Bharti and Sushma Swaraj.
Mister, it is a case of bad apples on both sides. It’s not as if “sycophant loving, corruption supporting, pseudo-secular” people like me [as you allege] don’t realize what’s going on. And it’s not as if I read the Baba-man’s statement one day and suddenly woke up from my “wow Congress” dream. The point I was trying to make is that power seems to have gone to the heads of Congress leaders – much like the BJP behaved just prior to the 2004 elections.
Dear Pratish
You wrote “(even for a person like me who has a slight tilt towards the Congress than the BJP because of “lack of alternatives” or whatever). ”
I am not a mind reader, but am commenting based on what you wrote.
BJP as a party has been extreme right wing at times (mostly early 90s) and there are some people in India who would never forgive it for that. They don’t want to admit that BJP came into power only when it became centrist or would give credit to it for running the most reform oriented government. The national memory is too short and people have forgotten the pathetic state of cellphone industry before NTP (new telecom policy) 99, shockingly some are now (read Rotten tata’s letter) finding fault with what in my view was the most sincere attempt by a government to right a wrong in the last 20 yrs. And the national highway development program was laughed at when ABV first talked about it.
The question that ‘never forgive BJP’ people need to ask themselves is what created the space for a right-wing BJP in early 90s? could it have been created by the shameless pandering to muslim vote bank?
It is statements like RG’s which breed right wing intolerance in otherwise secular peace-loving people. Just before the last general election our ‘Mr superclean’ PM said ‘Minorities have the first right on the nation’s resources’. I wonder whether it helped their cause then and encouraged them to to go further down that road.
What conspiracy? At least with Rahul Gandhi, the statements uttered were in secret.
SECRET!
And, tell me, when was the last time you saw Muslim initiated riots anywhere in India? Call me a fool, but I would presume Bombay and Godhra (not to forget Delhi way back in the eighties) were mostly Hindu inspired.
This is not, mind you, to say that Muslim terror organizations aren’t a threat. But I do feel that Hindu sponsored terror although perhaps less in absolute number hit much harder when they do.
You also have the additional complication that Hindu extremist organizations in India have the relative benefit of enjoying at least implicit support. Muslims, almost by definition, are always up to no good. The country as a whole – apart from the North East and some parts in the South – views the Muslim population as being problematic.
In this sense, it becomes even more clearly true that Hindu extremism, although less dangerous on average, is more dangerous when it counts.
Why isn’t it possible that the RSS be called an extremist organization? For sure, they had a hand in Godhra. For any sensible person, this should be enough.
You can call it vote bank politics if you like, but if people hold extreme views, they hold extreme views. And those MUST be discounted.
If you want to make your argument, Arnab, please make it to that point. Just making up a label is not enough, the issue is much more subtle than what most of us make it out to be.
@ k
Repeating a lie a thousand times does not make it true.
Mumbai riots were started with the massacre of Bane family in Ghatkopar (burnt alive after their Muslims neighbors locked them in their house and set it on fire)
Gujarat riots were started by the burning alive of Hindu karsevaks (mostly women and children) by a Muslim mob.
Actually communal riots in India (despite Ms being less than 20% of the population) are started by them.
I beleive that the statement given by Digvijay Singh is his last and desperate effort to be politically significant and “to be in news”.No Longer is he the Diggy Raja a 2 term CM and this lack of power and abundance of time has forced him to give such ridiculous statements.
As for Rahul, I equate his behaviour to big mouthed guys @ school who used to make ridiculous statements so as to impress dim witted around them. He would have thought that this statement from his side will make him appear “Intelligent” and wow people across . What a jerk!!
Sad? It is horribly disappointing to see a nation of a billion people being fooled by the politics of Gandhis and Congress.
On you central point of WHY is the congress/gandhi doing this. I dont think its either desperation or a serious attempt to get american to ban RSS etc. It is serious strategy to win the next general elections.
There are plenty of dumb voters out there who keep voting for congress every election, and the muslim vote adds to the numbers to get UPA across the line. Afterall, inspite of whatever congress says, I dotn expect too mani muslims (moderate or otherwise) to vote for BJP (which is the the basic flaw in BJP’s politics that it hasnt been able to become a true mass-based party).
As of one the wikileaks suggested, congress will do ANYTHING to win in politics. I expect UPA to come back to power using tactics like this. I expect millions of dumbf#cks to vote for the charisma of Rahul Gandhi. I expect fully that Rahul Gandhi will lead lead india into a disastrous future. Call me a cynic but there is nothing to suggest otherwise. The political system in the country is rotten from the very top. It would need nothing less than a revolution or a civil war to correct it.
In which other country can a person with Rahuls Gandhi’s CV of zero experience or competence, become the freaking prime minister. It happens only in India as his father proved.
Can the indian voter prove me wrong in the next general elctions? I dont think so.
k
you stress on the SECRET part of “one” of RG’s statements.
Isnt that even more dangerous? I mean the guy is not just doing it for votebank politics, but is a numbnut to the point of actually believing that hindu-terror threatens India more than Islamic Jihad sponsored from across the border?! and you want him to be your next PM yeah?
@K,
sure you are living a in a dream-land. There would have been no post-Godhra had there not been Godhra.
Have you heard of ethnic cleansing of >2 lakh Hindus in Kashmir in 1989?
Have you heard of Deganga? Who started Bhagalpur? How many riots were there in Gujarat before Modi came to power? Who caused 9/11? German Bakery?
Once I start listing, there will be no end brother. Keep away from things you do not know or understand.
Anyway, GB, one thing I must tell – Muslims are not as dangerous to India as a country as the pseudo-secularist Hindus are. Rahul Gandhi knows that very well, as does Diggi Raja
But BJP is not as much of a weakling as you are trying to project them to be – in the last one year they have made rapid strides under a new leadership. And you very well know the best leader India now has in Narendra Modi – no 2 ways about it.
Rishi,
>Mumbai riots were started with the massacre of Bane family in Ghatkopar >(burnt alive after their Muslims neighbors locked them in their house and set >it on fire)
Would you happen to have an online source for this?
BTW, an alternate full form of RSS = Rajiv Sonia & Son
Anonymous wrote:
“Rishi,
>Mumbai riots were started with the massacre of Bane family in Ghatkopar >(burnt alive after their Muslims neighbors locked them in their house and set >it on fire)
Would you happen to have an online source for this?”
Response:
Read the Sri Krishna commission report. Even that talks about it.
1. Do you think Extreme Hindutva terrorists do not exist and all this is a smoke screen created by the UPA?
2. If you think the answer to the above is yes does it mean Karkare (and his successors) and law enforcement agencies are lying?
3. If you think say the answer to Question No. 1 is “No – but it is a minuscule group” then can you say it won’t grow to greater proportions? Why won’t this particular Jr B grow to be a Big-B?
4. If you think say the answer to Question No. 1 is No do you think the senior Parivar leadership is totally oblivious to terrorist groups operating within their fold? We have seen the arrest of a senior leader haven’t we…. and indications that more will follow?
I mean, it’s SOP to strike off the “direct action” people from the rolls of the visible political/social organizations and keeping them away from visible socio-political activity. Meanwhile the said operatives can continue “the greater movement” while maintaining Plausible Deniability. Just because RSS is doing some social work it doesn’t mean they would stay away from wet works, no? I mean, look at the JuD and it’s LeT spawn.
5. Is there a qualitative difference between an IM terrorist (funded by Pakistan/KSA) blowing up a railway station for whatever reasons real/perceived and an RSS/VHP/BD mob torching a couple of Muslim residences.
6. Do you agree with the law dealing a Hindu extremist and a Muslim extremist equally? I mean, start by charging suspects like Aseemanand with TADA/POTA like laws and cops running 24/7 surveillance on their mohallas and conducting security raids every now and then?
“a political Nirupa Roy who sits at the steps of the temple waiting for God to come down and restore her eyesight.” This is absolute genius greatbong. Wish I could write like you. Its sad and for India Maharashtra would the best example “After all the screwups and ADARSH scams” if not Congress then who ? Drunkards at Matoshree are no better considering how all of them sucked up to Rebecca Mark during the good old Enron days. Raj is way too new and polarizing a figure and BJP unfortunately their identity is stuck in the muck with goons of Matoshree and have to get out of Nirupa Roy mode and be more bold and daring ala Himani Shivpuri. Third f@kin front is a joke of a lifetime. So the search for Modi or Nitish to cut off Madame’s tail is still ongoing for the progressive ones lolll.
One of your best posts of 2010. I compile a list of ‘Greatbong’s top 10’ every year and this gonna be somewhere in the top.
Wish we could have someone talking like you in the bigger spectrum of media.
Unique no? That even though the SriKrishna commision mentions them, there is not a single online source that even mentions this dastardly incident. Curiouser and curioser….
BalalSangh Parivar
I think your points are a bit pointless. If the article was to argue that hindu-terror or people like Aseemanand are not a threat to India, you’d have a point. But who is saying that?
The whole debate here is about propotinal response. And maintaining this proportion is damn important for a poor country like India.
If more than enough is spent on watching hindu terror organisations, it will automatically translate to less than enough spent on watching islamic terrorists. And we all know what they are calable of.
@Balal Sangh Parivar
1. Hindutva Terrorists exsit
2. Karkare, if we are to believe Digvijay Singh, was on Congress rolls, and created a bigger issue than actually was
3. Ok, let’s assume it does. But how how does that currently make it a bigger threat than groups which carried out 9/11, 26/11, London, Madrid, Bali?
4. The Sangh Parivar is more than a crore member strong. Even if some fringe elements exist, how can there be tabs on each one of them? Even Muthalik is an ex-Sanghi.
And “some social work”. You have no idea of their work during Bihar floods or Leh Flash floods
5. Qualitatively might not be – quantitatively, as GB said – comparing Jadeja with Sobers
6. Tada / Pota has been scrapped just to save some Muslim terrorists for vote-bank policies of Congress
I have a question for the like of you now – what makes you believe whatever the current CBI says? If you say whatever they say is true, explain their stance on Ruchika Girhotra when they say Rathore is innocent or the Arushi Talwar case?
Rishi Khujur,
The Bane family murder was on Jan 8….. the “proto-riot” started right after Dec 6 and around 400 were dead by the time. And remember all those new Maha Arathis held in the wake of Babri demolishment shortly followed by random violence and tit-for-tat attacks on Hindus? I also remember a number of police firings all through December….
The Bane incident was trumped up by the Shiv Sena with their “The next few days are ours” editorial and the SS-BJP-RSS-VHP=BD made full use of this spark. Yet it took another 6-7 days for the riots to….. really get going.
@ anonymous
Remember the beginning of the movie “Bombay”.
Teh burning of the Bane family by Muslims was actually shown in that. Rent a dvd and watch again.
You can find the Sri Krishna commission report online.
Funny when one speaks of proportions and forgets that death of one family at bane is as painful as several others.
Ditto for the 58 Kar sevaks in S6. I have never in all these 9 years seen a single report / article mentioning their plight. There were 2 year old children too
@Deepak
Maybe Greatbong ain’t saying that…. but there’s a great many Indians who claim otherwise. Some even say what Hindutva terrorists ain’t terrorism but “patriotic activities” and that they are the new Bhagat Singhs who went against the legal system existing in their times yadda yadda. Just wait till some folks here make the same argument (like they have done before) albeit coated with three coats of gloss.
As a Hindu I personally feel NO MERCY should be shown to those who think blowing up your neighborhood masjid is a proportional response to the Ghatopkar bombs and claim that they are doing a great favor to the faith. Such strands must be culled/curtailed with the same heavy handedness used to crush certain evils of Hindu social & religious systems 60+ years ago. I mean, hey…. the Muslims got the raw deal with that eh? I mean, imagine if Nehru et all went after the sheikhs/ashrafs/maulanas like he went after Zamindars and Agrahara/Temple trusts and moneylenders.
Just my thoughts….
@Kaushik Saha
Thats a nice emotional one, one death is as painful as several others.
But you are wrong. I dont know if you are trying to justify what happened in Gujrat post Godhra, but I’ll assume you are.
Whats next, justifying sikh riots in delhi cos Indra was killed by a sikh?
As a hindu, I am ashamed of what happened in Gujrat, may the souls of 58 kar-sevaks and many thousand muslims that died afterwards, rest in peace.
@BalalSangh Parivar
Ok this is a bit of a moot point cos nobody can prove this. But NO, great many indians DONT think otherwise. Great many number indians think that extreme hindutva poses a challenege to the country. I guess this perception just depends on personal expriences.
So, going to back to terrorism, do you agree with RG and Diggy singh that RSS poses a bigger threat to India than LeT? If your answer us no, we are on the same page.
If your answer is yes, WAKE UP!
@Deepak, I am not trying to justify the post-Godhra riots in any way, but in one case I am trying to point out to one commentator that he is wrong when he says Hindu extremism is always a bigger threat, pointing to post-Godhra incidents
In another case, I am appalled by absolute apathy of the entire media machinery and otherwise to those burnt alive.
Anyways, Godhra and post-Godhra has to be looked into, with a sense of greater perspective on history of riots in Gujarat. It was in no ways a one-off incident.
As far as “many thousand Muslim lives” are concerned, the official figures by the same Congress with leaders like Diggi Raja et al says the figure was 754 for Muslims and 290 for Hindus.
Anyway, we are missing out on the bigger picture by focusing issue. The issue is that (1) compared to Modi’s political achievements, that of his bete-noire Rahu’s is little (2) compared to Congress’s corruption record , BJP’s corruption record is little
there are a good proportion of Indians who too claim that Islamic terrorism activities are actually a service to the community (there are no ways that everyone believes that, but some indeed do) – that they are new age warriors yadda yadda yadda (even the recent blast in Sweden was justified in different blogs by the same argument), albeit with some gloss
As an Indian, I just wonder whether any mercy should be shown to these elements too. And I don’t remember in recent memory whether any masjid has been blown up – on the contrary, there have been several temples defiled in Kashmir. Forghet Kashmir, as recently as this weekend in Rampurhat (another obfuscation)
But as I said, these exact comparisons and divisions are what the Congis want – the more we fight, the more they benefit. And the country will continue to, well, cry even without cutting the onions
@Kaushik Saha
Take my thousand lives comment back. I didnt check the figures.
Agree on the bigger issue. Congress is an absolute disaster for the country. I wont say anything about BJP, but I can’t see how anything can be worse than Congress led by Rahul Gandhi.
as Sadanand Dhume in his WSJ article says, it is Congress PM-Elect’s “ignorance, not a handful of Hindu zealots, that poses the greater threat to India”.
@ Kaushik Saha
I feel Hindutva *terrorism* (I mean, the bombs and gun running and cloak and dagger stuff) won’t grow any larger than Khalistani terrorism did long back. Perhaps even less.
However, huge swathe of Hindus radicalized and desensitized to “stronger actions against Mlecchas” can lead to large scale violence. The majority of India’s population is young and vast majority identify themselves as son-of-the-soil Hindu. Parochial-Communal (if not simply unhinged destructive) politics took hold in many Mumbaikar/Desh Maratha youth with simple religious/political tools stressing on such self-identification; it’s not unimaginable that the same can’t be repeated all over India. Religion+politics is a potent mix and easily trumps over any “historical dialectics” and daresay, Mandal. Tilak and Gandhiji set out that powerful genie…… looks like it’s mutated into a virulent form.
The social work of the RSS is not altruistic. It’s not without the greater, baser objective of plain vanilla political mileage and PR. Nothing much to crow about…. at least in my book. Not a single knicker is starched and ironed without some purpose…. that is, not including the obvious sanitary concerns. And there’s nothing wrong about it too, come to think about it…. but it gets my goat when people say “RSS repairs flood damaged houses and so it can’t do anything wrong”.
TADA/POTA maybe gone but I feel there are just as fingernail-pulling testicle electrocuting “laws and pandu traditions”. Heh Heh. Well, for one the Sadhvi claimed the pandus forced her to watch p0rn, no? Quite insulting thing for someone who’s taken celibacy vows if true… especially if the “movie” is a something like Chamiya.
Any argument proving the infinitely higher threat of Islamic terror, as opposed Hindu counter-action, needs to delve into the THEOLOGICAL and HISTORICAL aspect of Islam and Hindu religion. That is what people liek Rahul Gandhi themselves need to udnerstand to begin with.
Merely, arguing on the tactical, moral, emotional and operational aspects, is a exercise in vain, as the real threats and causes get overlooked under the garb of political correctness.
Since GB here, would not wish to get into those details, and any comments I write getting into those details will not be approved, I leave you all to enjoy the discussion.
@ Deepak
Maybe I am in an ignorant slumber unlike those that have attained kevalajnaana in Indian politics…… IMO RSS ideology poses as much threat to India as Operation Tupac (extended). While the former offers implosion through poisoning and eating away the core, the latter offers weakening-by-a-thousand cuts followed by decapitation and necrophilia. And anything Indian is ten times stronger than the best Pakistan can offer.
PS: BTW, what is the equal-equal between the Ram Janmabhoomi Political Movement (with the bricks from all over India and Rath Yatra etc etc) leading to much publicized, live destruction of a dilapidated-yet-politically significant masjid and a bunch of rioters demolishing a not-so-well-known temple. I mean, Qualitatively and Quantitatively.
@Balal Sangh Parivar
I do not agree with you on some points. Just like there are huge swathes of radicalized Hindus, there are a greater number of Hindu youths who are secular in the true sense of the word (not Mulayam-lalu-Rahul Gandhi barnd of secularism). In fact, this is true across communities – reserach says the youth is now more religious (need to be religion-sensitive though – reserach available on the net)
Second place where I do not agree with you is the fact that you have chosen a few examples from places and tried to impose them on the whole community (you have repeatedly said “not unimaginable”, “I have reasons to believe” – this is in fact, berating the Hindu youth to an extent, saying they do not have brains of their own to identify the good from the bad.
If you indeed believe that religion + poltics is indeed such a potent mix, then you are actually pointing fingers at the educational system of the country, not to forget that your attack is somewhat limited to the Hindu youth. Now, I think that’s bias
Third, I disagree with the fact that RSS does whatever it does for political ambitions. had they done so, they would have browbeat their achievements. Contrest this to Rahul Gandhi and the likes, whose Niyamgiri and other such ventures are pure political gimmick. And in my book, working for flood victims with zero media attention is much to crow about.
Whoever says “RSS repairs flood damaged houses and so it can’t do anything wrong” is wrong himself, but to say RSS does anything for PR is pure bull-shit and reeks of bias, something that I would call “pseudo-secularism just for the sake of it”,a nd something that I have said earlier is more dangerous than any form of terrorism
Muslims got the raw deal … … if Nehru et all went after the sheikhs/ashrafs/maulanas like he went after Zamindars and Agrahara/Temple trusts and moneylenders.
What exactly are you smoking?! If Nehru had even dared to do so, then the sheikhs/ashrafs/maulanas would have held Nehru’s ear with one hand, slapped with the other hand and ordered Nehru to bend over. Within a minute Nehru would have started crawling! No wonder that Nehru, who opposed Hindu Mahasabha to the hilt, had no problem sharing power with Muslim League, a very secular org. in 1959.
For the record, what applies to Nehru, applies equally to all most secularists – they can roar and howl against Hindu extremism but when facing the real terrorists, they roll over and play dead. Their bravado against extremism is nothing but a show.
So, while HEMANT KARKARE, another secular Hindu, was busy fishing for Hindu terrorists, the real terrorists came. Guess how long he and his Hindu-terrorist-hunting-friends lasted? 5 minutes.
[edited by GB]
live destruction of a dilapidated-yet-politically significant masjid – sorry, according to Islam, that structure is not even a Masjid, secondly, most of the temples destructed at Kashmir, now at Deganga and Rampurhat were not what one would call dilapitated.
Again, as I could have said – whats 754 before 2 lakh Kashmiri Pandita, but as I said, comparisons between deaths is indeed sad.
Third, the issue is the rampant corruption and clinging to power by the Congress, and this is one of the best diversionary tactics their supporters always have – the mandir-masjid / riots issue
Regarding Mumbai…..The Sri Krishna Commission report points out:
“The last week of December 1992 and first week of January 1993, particularly
between 1st to 5th, saw a series of stabbing incidents in which both Hindus
and Muslims were victims, though the majority of such incidents took
place in Muslim dominated areas of South Bombay and a majority of victims
were Hindus.
The Sri Krishna Commission report points out two horrendous Jihadi-led mass
killings that triggered Hindu retaliation during the January 1993 riots:
1) On the night of January 5, 1993, near a godown in Dongri, two Hindu
workers were surrounded and brutally hacked to death by a gang of
Jihadis (for the only reason that they were kafirs).
Abdul Rauf Sayyad Mohammed a.k.a Rauf Chacha, Feroz Abdulla Sarguroh a.k.a Firoz Konkani (who murdered 18 Hindus including BJP MLA Ramdas Nayak), Nazir Ali, Nazir Sayed Mansur and Mohammed Hussain hacked to death two haplessHindu mathadi workers (Laxman Kadam and Rajaram Kadam) at Dongri.
2) On the night of 7th January 1993 (or the wee hours of 8th January 1993,
around 12.30 AM), when people were fast asleep, the Hindu residences in
Radhabai Chawl in Jogeshwari were locked from outside and set on fire by
their Jihadi neighbours (for the only reason that they were kafirs). Five Hindu women/girls and one Hindu man of the Bane family and their Hindu neighbours were burnt alive and three other Hindus sustained third-degree burn
injuries. One of the dead Hindu victims was a handicapped girl who could not
escape her burning home because of her disability.
Another great article by the GreatBong. And the line about BJP being a Nirupa Roy was a killer.
And the bigger tragedy is that Indian politics has fallen to such a low that no one gives a damn anymore. These days your first reaction on hearing about a multi-million scam is not the usual anger and disgust; but a smile followed by “Holy F**k, the suckers have done it again. What is the new record ??”
Another killer statement from Congress…. WTF ?
Digvijay says BJP has tampered with Wikileaks
http://www.hindustantimes.com/Digvijay-doubts-WikiLeak-that-Modi-was-to-be-targeted-by-LeT/Article1-637284.aspx
isn’t it funny that we all know how corrupt the congress is or how dysfunctional (or should ‘mal’functional be the correct word) the current government is BUT all the same such a party gets voted for two successive terms and a BJP after the Kargil victory and the mobile revolution and the roadways development gets mooted out? given congress’ record I seriously believe that had kargil happened under manmohan singh/sonia gandhi, the LOC would have further shifted towards the indian territory!!!
@ Kaushik Saha
“Good and Bad” and what’s acceptable/the law of the land are quite pliable. Huge shifts DO occur in mind spaces of societies….. and they are not always for the better. Societies with wealth/social indexes MUCH better than India have been (and are continuing to be) led down the garden path. IMO telling ourselves that sanity and innate good of humans will triumph over falsehood and hate is……. not advisable.
The political-hindutva/jehadi/apocalyptic arguments of “show ’em who’s the boss” are the thin-edge of the wedge of their desired “inevitable civilizational clash”. And it doesn’t take a huge number to make the rest turn that corner….. just need to be politically organized and a degree of hold on media outlets. Add a little extraneous calamities and political exigencies and you have the rest eating out of your hand. Works all the time. And BTW, what I say applies to Muslims/Sikhs/X’tians as much as to Hindus.
How is the educational system to blame if you let dangerous thought viruses infect you? The Indian educational system system ain’t like the Chinese or Paki or Soviet system where you are told exactly what to think and programmed to have irrational episodes when faced with cognitive dissonances. If that were so all of us would be typing on the lines of “Nehru was always right. May the invincible thoughts of the great helmsman echo forever…..”. All of us here went through the ICSE/CBSE/SSC mill…. if not go further into college level social studies? Where did you meet such “pedagogy”? Okay…. perhaps in school they didn’t tell us about Aurangzeb mass murdering Hindus but in college such facets *are( taught. (Even if some commie historians sought to play apologist…)
Oh the RSS is silent on it’s activities? It publicizes those activities the best they could….. all those hindutva websites, the BJP/RSS/etc mouthpieces, the govt press releases of BJP ruled states, the speeches of BJP ministers, the election manifestos and electioneering work, the PAS of the neighborhood temple (if the committee/trust is run by RSS) the card and trishul carrying netpracharaks etc, some posters here are all outlets of the good news. Strange thing is ALL of these claim it is a silent altruistic service. It’s perhaps not as in-your-face as a “Kalavati” (perhaps due to their lesser hold in Indian media) but IT IS THERE.
And last, yes… pseudo-secularism is as odious as communalism; with half the spine too. Sheesh!
and regarding this hindu muslim thing, the ones who are so terrified of “hindu extremism”, grow up guys!!! i mean if A stabs B and B defends himself by hitting A, is B an extremist?? to all muslims, i dont think hindus have anything against you..so please dont make things up, instigated by parties like congress. u are in as much pain living in this corrupt third world country as hindus are…religion hardly matters in this struggle for existence. truly post godhra wouldnt have happened if godhra hadn’t happened.
@ Debadrita
The finest Panjshir weed of course…. lovingly harvested by a one-eyed Tajik with bad teeth and webbed feet…. processed and compacted in Peshawar… and rolled into a cigarillo on the bare thighs of a cutie doing Peechadi-History in JNU. Peace!
I mean Nehru must surely have been a coward for throwing the entire weight of the state against numerically superior Hindus plagued by zamindari systems and antediluvian caste practices and slogged out dozens of amendments for that effect. And he “chickened out” when faced with a rudderless, backward, politically weak community who’s majority of leaders left for Pakistan!
Sarcasm aside, I have been told there wasn’t enough political capital nor strength to go after both communities at the same time. Also, agriculture was the keep of Hindus and there was much to do there. I believe all the efforst made to improve agriculture benefited Hindus more than Muslims …. who are more urbanized and into craft and small businesses and services.
IMHO Hindus got the better of the bargain…. socially, politically and yes… economically. Who was in a position to make the best use of globalization when it came delayed by 10-15 years? And what did we “lose” in the bargain? Temples run by Govt? P-Secs on national media and commies in academia? Minuscule but dangerous Muslim extremism?
Just my thoughts.
BTW, that thing about “according to Islam it is not a masjid….” thing got me thinking:
Isn’t there a law/tradition that a temple must not be built were violence has been committed and where blood has been split? I don’t recall now but certain traditions have strict observances when consecrating a ground to be used a hallowed place of worship. Isn’t there an apocrypha on how Karna was cremated on Lord Krishna’s left hand as the Lord could not find one piece of land nearby that wasn’t stained with the blood of battle or the evil of the past (remember the story of how Lord Krishna chose Kurukshetra in the first place?)…… and he used his right hand for doing the rituals & giving alms.
But then again Somnath was rebuilt after all that Ghazvanid murder and defilement so it’s kosher I guess…. Still, anyone got some sources? TIA.
I dont know how but our Indian politicians make such statement without any hesitation and hem. Just because our govt is loose and careless.
@BalalSangh Parivar: When you say Minuscule but dangerous Muslim extremism I think you are overdoing on your weed-consumption a bit too much. This is exactly what Nehru thought on Jinnah’s rabble rousing and Nehruvians still think today about Islamic fanaticism in general. Plus, I don’t think Nehru ‘chickened’ out of anything – he did exactly what he wanted to do, at least after partition when Gandhi gifted him PMship after removing Patel.
As far as Muslims not getting a bargain, that is utter falsehood to anyone with simple sense of history. It may be argued that the Congress party got the better of the bargain – but the Hindus? Please cut down on your weed consumption – once you are sober I can count exactly what Hindus lost (let me give you a hint – its called Hindustan 😉 )
Finally, when it comes to Muslim backwardness (socially, politically or economically), if 2% Sikhs or 1% Christians or even lesser fractions of Parsi, Jewish or Jain minorities in India can climb up the social or economic ladder and ~20% Muslims cannot, even after 60+ yrs of molly-coddling, then one needs to sit back, take a deep breadth, and ask – Do they actually want to come up the social ladder? Or they prefer to implement the Sharia? Forget Kashmir or Kerala, there is a growing demand for Sharia in London. Anyone thinking Muslim extremism is minuscule is only fooling him/herself.
@ Balal Anand
I like the way you think. You think a lot like the invading Arabs, Mughals
and Turks who were successful in converting large swathes of the Indian
Subcontinent into a “Dar-ul-Islam”.
These brutal occupiers and their local converts felt that slaughtering cows
inside the sanctum sanctorum (Garbha Griha) of ancient Hindu temples,
pouring cows’ blood all over the Murtis (sanctified images) and demolishing
these Mandirs would deter or scare subsequent generations of Hindus from reclaiming their temples/sacred-sites and rebuilding them.
Nice try but it won’t work !
But chew on this… If the narrative of the preachings and acts of Khawaja
Moinuddin Chishti of Ajmer is taken as indication of his religious
philosophy and deeds, he emerges as a Sufi master who nursed a deep hatred
against the infidel Hindus and showed utter contempt for their religious
beliefs. As elaborated by S.S.A. Rizvi in ‘A History of Sufism in India,
Vol. 1 (Munshiram Manoharlal, 1978, p. 117), there is a reference in Jawahar-i-Faridi to the fact that when Moinuddin Chishti reached near the
Annasagar Lake at Ajmer, where a number of holy shrines of Hindus are located, he killed a cow and cooked a beef kebab at the sacred place surrounded by temples.
@ Varsha
Please dont call BalalSangh Parivar using his real name as you did in the previous post.
Am I allowed to call Rishi (he who quotes Bombay as his source of information) by his real name—Hishi ?
@anonymous
Arre bhai, I qoted Sri Krishna Commission Report. Varsha gave you the details.
Quoting Varsha’s comment on teh Sri Krishna Commission report.
1) On the night of January 5, 1993, near a godown in Dongri, two Hindu
workers were surrounded and brutally hacked to death by a gang of
Jihadis (for the only reason that they were kafirs).
Abdul Rauf Sayyad Mohammed a.k.a Rauf Chacha, Feroz Abdulla Sarguroh a.k.a Firoz Konkani (who murdered 18 Hindus including BJP MLA Ramdas Nayak), Nazir Ali, Nazir Sayed Mansur and Mohammed Hussain hacked to death two haplessHindu mathadi workers (Laxman Kadam and Rajaram Kadam) at Dongri.
2) On the night of 7th January 1993 (or the wee hours of 8th January 1993,
around 12.30 AM), when people were fast asleep, the Hindu residences in
Radhabai Chawl in Jogeshwari were locked from outside and set on fire by
their Jihadi neighbours (for the only reason that they were kafirs). Five Hindu women/girls and one Hindu man of the Bane family and their Hindu neighbours were burnt alive and three other Hindus sustained third-degree burn
injuries. One of the dead Hindu victims was a handicapped girl who could not
escape her burning home because of her disability.
@anonymous
It is really difficult for me to respond to your questions, as my comments are all moderated, and often, it takes a some time before they get approved. So if you have useful conversation or questions that you have then, ask.
If it is just going to be personal attacks, then feel free to vent yourself by writing to me at rishi_khujur@rediffmail.com
@anonymous
You have indeed chosen a good name for Rishi.
In Japanese, “Hishi” means a “Diamond” (which in turn is derived from the ancient Greek word for “Unbreakable”).
“Unbreakable and Priceless” – that aptly describes Rishi and his grassroots activism in Bengal.
@BS Parivar,
Minuscule but dangerous Muslim extremism?Really, minuscule? What does the following link tell you?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-3-British-Muslim-students-killing-Islam-40-want-Sharia-law.html
@BS Parivar,
Regarding the supposedly backward Muslims and Hindu conspiracy, I really can not agree more. You see, all the muslim countries in middle east, Africa and South East Asia are ruled by hateful communal RSS-inspired Hindus that force Muslims to study Qur’an in Madrassa only. If these communal Hindus did not rule this countries then Muslims would have built a super civilization, would not they?
Anyone who is trying to sell this theory should question themselves if that is the case, why do not Muslims leave India and settle in Pakistan – the holy land? An explanation is provided by Khalid Khwaja, one time ISI colonel and a close associate of Bin Laden:
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/GF22Df04.html
The relevant portion:
@ GB – “majority of Indian Muslims (are) perhaps one of the least radicalized communities in the world today”.
WHAT IS YOUR CONCLUSION BASED ON?
———————————–
Interesting comment, Arnabda. I`m very keen to know what you`ve based this conclusion on. Is it on :
– results of a proper survey? A wide, statistically significant survey with Type I & II errors removed?
– Or more on `gut instinct`, on what you `feel` about it?
– Or on visible events, like absence of major `home-grown` terrorist attacks?
BASED ON FEELINGS?
—————–
Feelings are important, sometimes even more so than out-dated surveys, yet they suffer from a high risk of subjective error, so should be extra cautious when relying upon them, especially where life & death of a nation is concerned. Is it not better to hedge at wthe orst case scenario & work backwards from there?
Let’s say a vague acquaintance from the next block meets you, claims he is an investment advisor & asks you to part with Rs 50 lakhs on a ‘sure-profit’ scheme. Will you do so before being certain of his credentials? You may invite him over for tea, he may charm your family profusely, & you may develop a very warm ‘feeling’ that he`s ok. Yet will this be enough to convince you to sell your family jewels to raise the cash?
And now it gets even more interested as research reveals he hails from a VERY infamous family of Ponzi schemers. And that his father, grandfather & ancestors have regularly cheated your father, grandfather & ancestors out of fortunes time & time again. In addition you find that his 10 brothers, who he`s extremely close to, are currently all in jail in UK, USA, France, Germany, Russia and many other countries for perpetrating the same fraud.
Will your trust still remain unimpaired?
BASED ON EVENTS
—————-
Or perhaps you`re relying on the fact that we haven’t had any major home grown terrorist incident?
Leave aside the horrific attacks on Mumbai (1990s). Forget the burning alive of 50+ kar-sevaks, women and children included. Forget the daily bleeding of India through Kashmir. Forget Deganga. Forget the rape of Hindu women in Murshidabad and Maldah. Even the middle-class ones returning from wedding ceremonies whose cars get stranded on National Highways. Let’s even forget the fact that India’s own Dawood Bhaiya is one of the top ten terrorists in the world. Forget partition, forget the 1,300 years of tyranny before that; let’s wipe the slate clean and begin afresh from today.
Yet even if we leave aside the vast misery bank standing just outside the ‘most recent’ mark, can we assume from events on this side of the mark that all is well? I think not, as EVENTS ARE CAPRICIOUS, having a tendency of rapidly altering course.
For e.g.,in UK, a decade ago the local Islamic community was ad nauseum praised for hard work, diligence & progressive views. I`ve witnessed short story after novel after news item after documentary starkly contrasting the desiccating nature of Hindus against dynamic Islamic counterparts. Even after 9/11, even after 7/7, step after careful step was taken to preserve the good name of Islam in UK.
And yet today the local UK populace is seething in anti-Islamist rage. What happened? What cataclysmic EVENT triggered this? The slow haemorrhage of a 100 few troops light years away in Iraq and Afghanistan? No, as that is academic to most people. Even 7/7 is like a thrilling massage session compared to the constant misery many Indians have to bear (see Kashmiri pandits). The more outrageous and obscene Islamist spectacles the UK witnesses regularly now were rare 5 years ago, gaining momentum rapidly since then? So what changed?
The answer is NOTHING CHANGED. The furious torrent was charging away all the time, cutting its own inevitable course even as the Goebbel Smiths blared otherwise. It now transpires, that EVEN IN LATE 2008 :
– A third of UK Muslims believe murder in the name of religion is good. Even more dream of the crushing dictatorship of Sharia.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-3-British-Muslim-students-killing-Islam-40-want-Sharia-law.html
– 25% of all UK Muslims are on DISABILITY BENEFITs (source above), to which add to the fact that 45% of Muslim men and 65% of Muslim women are on UNEMPLOYMENT BENEFITs.
So much so for diligence, hard work & keen sense of duty. If these statistics related to Hindus, the BBC would not lose a second in tainting UK Hindus a hopeless basket-case of unemployable, scrounging retard Hindus.
So you see, even though the EVENT hadn’t manifest itself in the UK in the recent past, the potential was burrowing away underneath the surface, as strong and vicious as ever.
If an infamous burglar moves in to your street, will you be extra cautious? If you hear that after his latest release 2 months ago, he has not been convicted of any crime since, will this add to your sense of security, when you know that his list of PAST crimes are easily in triple digits?
Or will you start peeking at spy-cams on the internet?
IT’S NOT FEELING, IT’S NOT EVENTs. IT’S THE CONTEXT, THE INSPIRATION
———————————————————————–
IMHO far more than error-prone feelings and rapidly changeable events, if you wish to determine the likely course of action, check the context of how a man lives, where he draws his inspiration from.
If the cat-burglar has won $10 million dollars in a lottery, I may relax my alertness a bit. If the investment adviser above has publicly and vociferously denounced the criminal activities of his family, and maintains no links with them, I may be a bit more relaxed.
However, if even basic spying on the cat-burglar reveals that he religiously reads and reveres his “Manual of Burgling” which strongly teaches him to consider all neighbours as inferior, & legitimate targets for burglary, I will be naive to snore in complacency.
Otherwise, we may have a scenario where the cat-burglar feels secure enough to attempt to kill his daughter for going out with a neighbour’s son.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340222/Harry-Potter-actress-beaten-branded-prostitute-brother-dating-man-Muslim.html
Or the investment adviser may brand us a paedophile if we dare decorate Xmas trees.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340599/WikiLeaks-1-3-British-Muslim-students-killing-Islam-40-want-Sharia-law.html
So Arnabda, though I strongly believe the wonders of Indian democracy, tolerant Hinduism as well as amazing Hindu accomodativeness after partition has certaintly convinced many, many Muslims in India to think twice before charging in to jehad, can you really be sure that they are “one of the last radicalised communites”? “In the world”, to boot?
@GB
You are spot on in your comparison of US political stream with Indian politics. I would extend that to media outlets in these two countries. The most liberal or leftist media or politician in the US would have pride in their country and would not dare to take sides to likes of Osamas. When it comes to national honour and pride and fight against terrorism they are together, one. they don’t go about inviting talibans to their land, engage in dialogue and try to reason the acts of 9/11. For every media or politician in the US, 9/11 was terrorist acts and they have no doubts or qualms about perpetrators – they are enemies of the US period. And what we have in india; some political group invited Musharaff, the person who spent his life hating, conspiring and backstabbing India in the name of peace and inflicting Kargil war, for delivering a speech in Delhi a few months back. This guy, who is in exile from his own country, whose political status is nothing more than a stray dog and who would be killed if he sets foot in his country and for long india’s no.1 enemy, we find it important to invite him for a lecture – WTF. Not only that, our media outlets carry personal interviews while he enjoys Taj’s hospitality, the very hotel destroyed by terrorists that not a while ago his country’s army had nurtured and sponsered. He also openly outrageously declares to Barkha Dutt for not regretting Kargil and blames India for sequence of events that led to Kargil. I wonder what widows, parents and children of the solidiers who laid their life in Kargil would think if they showed the speech and interview.
Sorry, my last link in the comment above was wrong. It should be –
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1340794/Muslim-group-launches-poster-hate-campaign-festive-period.html
@ Greatbong- You write so well yaar. This is one of the best I have come across. I hope Rahul Gandhi is reading your comment space. It is so informative. This is the best comment space in the entire blogworld.
@debadrida & Varsha- You girls sound like you are in Durga Vahini. I wish middle class people are more like you.
@ anonymous
Do you have a picture of Rishi Khujur next to baby Jesus in your apartment?
@ Balal Sangh Parivar
You sure sound like a educated fool. The exact audience Rahul Gandhi is counting on.
@ debadrita
I know it fits the political aims of card carrying netpracharaks to take the slippery slope argument… and you are knocking down a strawman to boot.
I repeat, only a *minuscule* number of Indian Muslims have taken the path of Jihad against India…… but even that is dangerous to the security of the state.
The right wing always sidesteps it’s major contribution in the growth of “professional” Islamic terrorism we see today by conflating it with medieval excesses, Jinnah and the ML, anecdotal observations on how Muslims are dirty and lecherous and the color of the beard of their local maulana. They also claim that ALL or a *majority* or Indian Muslims support such terrorism as you yourself are implying in your post. Behind online IDs and sitting beyond the reach of cyber law enforcement anyone can feel nine feet tall and paint with such broad, bold strokes. Anyway….
This (minuscule in scale) terrorism way beyond the plain vanilla mob clashes began after the Ram Janmabhoomi political movement and Babri Masjid demolishment; no two ways abut it. And before you bring the J&K terrorism heydays of ’89-’92 it was a localized phenomenon greatly aided by Afghan War surpluses, our own political bungling, Farooq Abdullah’s abyssal misgovernance, Pakistani nukes and yes, a number of young men swayed by “Islam Khatre Mein He” argument. BTW, do note the points on Islamic terrorism and tactical vs strategic terrorism raised by B Raman in the following link:
http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?267027
You have made such a dazzlingly brilliant parallel between Sikhs, Jains, Parsis and Christians (historically prosperous communities concentrated in certain areas) vs Indian Muslims spread all over India. Heh… a more apt comparison would be between Indian Muslims and Hindus. After all in India muslims aren’t a minority, just a….. “smaller majority” and they carry perhaps as heavy a burden of history as Hindus do. In many social indexes they fall behind , even if slightly so, behind Hindus…. just do a Google.
Once again, take a look at the great development programs- social and economical of India…. ‘specially the ones just following Independence. Hey, take a look at NREGA and Bharat Nirman which account for a great share of expenditure. Take the great NGO ventures like Sulabh which was greatly aided by the state. Which community was by design or simply by happenstance the greatest beneficiary? Didn’t the framers of these policies know the communal breakdown of their aid/largess recipients?
I’m not saying the state was *intentionally* screwing muslims but we had priorities…. and these priorities have greatly aided Indian Hindus without which Muslims and other communities would have been actually ahead of Hindus.
Just my thoughts.
Do
Contd…. (a previous comment’s waiting moderation ‘coz of a link I pasted I guess)
@ Varsha
Oi! I was simply asking a question on scriptures vis-a-vis temple consecration since we have so many learned self appointed Hindu defenders here. Didn’t I say in the same post that since Somnath was rebuilt there’s prolly a theological backing and rebuilding a temple in Ayodhya from theological POV is ok? If you can help me with scriptural references that please do. Srsly…. I couldn’t find the exact one till now!
And all that venting about Turk invaders and cow blood defiling and how I am a successor to such great editions; your point has been noted and treated with the consideration such a rant deserves. Thank You.
BTW, Varsha and Khujur, I am always in a state of anand. Thank You.
If you want to quote Sri Krishna Commission report why not quote other parts also? Here are some random quotes from the net…. including the HVK site which offers so many esoteric and historical explanations for Hindu violence.
1. The situation in Mahim went out of control at 2100 hours (Jan 6). Hindus attacked Muslims in Muslim pockets in Mahim area led by Shiv Sena Corporator, Milind Vaidya, and a Police Constable Sanjay Gawade, openly carrying a sword. There were serious riots in which frenzied mobs of Hindus and Muslims attacked each other.
2. On Monday, January 4, Kirit Somaiya, secretary of BJP, announced a grand programme of maha aratis in various temples around the city. The same day, a maha arati was held in Jogeshwari, followed by violence. The next day, rioting was again reported in Dharavi, and Muslim families were fleeing the area.
3. The killers had not been then identified in several cases, though it was presumed, at least in the cases where the Hindus were victims, that the killers were Muslims. The motive for the stabbing appears to have been to whip up communal frenzy between Hindus and Muslims. Some of the Muslim criminal elements operating in South Bombay, like Salim Rampuri and Firoz Konkani, have been identified as the brains behind the stabbing incidents. That they were criminals was underplayed by Hindus; that they were Muslims was all that mattered, and a cry went up that the Muslims were bent upon a second round of riots.
4. On 20th December 1992 two Muslims were locked inside a room and the room was set on fire in Goregaon jurisdiction as a result of which they suffered severe burns resulting in the death of one
5. On January 13, the Army patrol found Vivek Maitra, personal assistant to BJP leader Gopinath Mundhe, moving about in a car with a revolver. However, he was not detained
See, everyone was on the gravy train!
@ Balal Sangh Parivar (BSP)
Some very important observations, my friend. There have been a lot of responses to your post, demonstrating how Islam (or Islamism if you prefer) is beginning to be perceived by the rest of Hindu society. I will not dwell upon points covered, & will just highlight 3 facts. Fact of principle, number and sustenance.
PRINCIPLE – IS TERRORISM OF TERRORISM = TERRORISM?
——————————————————————————–
Is terrorising terrorists = terrorism? Was blitzkrieg of blitzkrieging Nazis = Nazism? I think not.
Hindu `terrorism` (sic) as it is called is not an inherent feature of Hinduism, as jehad is of Islam. Hindu extremism, a completely recent phenomenon, has arisen because Hindus have been fed up of seeing millions, yes millions of their own being massacred, while the world looks and laughs on.
Any co-operation from the Islamic lobby, while welcome, is inherently impossible. We should expect sympathy from the `West`, yet dirty politics and contempt have …. deferred their compassion, themselves hobbling around as they are with parts of their anatomy missing from terrorist blasts.
Yet our own countrymen? Our own wretched Congress, SP, BSP et al whose prime function is protecting the citizens of India? These pathetic creatures are exclusively engaged in looting the billions of the nation. And to add insult to brutal injury, they turn around and systematically desecrate the Hindu foundation the nation stands upon.
What was the first thing these criminals did when Hindu women and children were burnt alive in Godhra? Express an ounce of sympathy? An iota of indignation? An inch of remorse? A flutter of activity suggesting the grisly culprits would be brought to justice? No, the first thing they did was concoct BS stories about the RSS being behind it.
Do you see why this sense of complete Hindu outrage has inevitably manifest itself in a sense of Hindu rage?
NUMBERS – BLACK AND WHITE
——————————————
Please note that no human endeavour can ever be completely black or completely white. The Hindu canvas is a perfectly white one, on which there are many specks of black. On the opposite side lies a dark black canvas, with a few tippex marks.
If someone now utilises the few random streaks in each to label both of them grey, would this not be dishonest? It would. In spite of a few black streaks, the colour of the Hindu canvas IS white. And the other canvas, in spite of a handful of white dots, is most certainly black.
Thus, going by the pathetic handful of paltry cases, Hindu extremism is not a threat. Going by the vast crushing plethora of Islamist terrorist cases, Islamist terrorism is.
SUSTENANCE – TREE AND BRANCH
————————————————-
BSP, you have raised the possibility of Hindu extremism expanding. Is this remotely a possibility? A tree can be known from its root, not its branch.
Hypothetically assume for a second that hypothetical Hindu extremism has hypothetically reached alarming proportions. Where will it draw its sustenance from? Hinduism at its core is a spiritual system zealously keen on raising base existent matter to infinite divinity. Does it care a fig for dominating or killing others? Heck, it even considers the whole of nature to be divine.
As such, any abnormal branhes from the trunk will soon either be truncated, or wither away out of lack of nourishment.
However, if Hinduism were a faith whose raison d`etre was to `assiduously convince` (sic) others to blindly follow its rigid ideology, then we would have a problem. If Hinduism had demonstrated time and again that violent extremism was a core part of its philosophy, then we would have a problem. If the greatest Hindu monk, Vivekananda, had gone around scimitar in hand decapitating hapless victims who had surrendered, & Hindus were to draw full inspiration from this one monk, then we would certainly have a problem.
Then Hindu terrorist actions could not be interpreted as inhuman aberrations, but cornerstone of a deeply thought out, long cherished, fully supported strategy.
Do you see, BSP?
CONCLUSION – BSP, SHOW ME YOUR MONEY
————————————————————-
BSP, you have raised the spectre of Hindu extremism expanding. Is this even a remote probability?
I am around mid-thirties, with a waist line approaching mid-thirties. And bones that creak when I attempt my yoga sessions. Is it remotely possible that I can be trained to win the Olympic 100m dash?
Of course it is POSSIBLE, as nothing is IMPOSSIBLE. But the probability is near nil. Similarly the probability of Hindu extremism getting out of hand is near nil.
When in doubt, think WY-BY-MO. What`ll you bet your money on?
– Would you even bet $10 at 100:1 that I`d win the next Olympic Gold … after meeting me?
– If you were to put down $1,000 dollars at 10:1 that Hindu extremism will explode in the next five years, will you do so?
– Whereas if you got odds of 3:2 that unchallenged, Islamist terrorism will swallow human civilisation, would you put your money on it?
That`s the acid test. And that`s why Rahul Gandhi and Digvijay Singh are either complete liars, idiots, retards or a combination thereof. They are certainly morons and criminals for the harm they have done hapless Hindus.
Hai na?
H2b2:
can you really be sure that they are “one of the last radicalised communites”? “In the world”, to boot?
So which country do you think they are less radicalized than in India? (Please discount countries like the US where they are not present in a sufficiently large proportion). I also fail to see how the percentage of Muslims who draw disability benefits in the UK has anything to do with radicalism in India or how the behavior of radicalised Muslims in UK (which is a complicated phenomenon having its roots in the desire to form communities of identity against racism and hostility from Whites) has anything to do with my statement. Unlike others(and perhaps it may be because I believe that a human being is not programmed simply to react to cues of religion but also of community, identity and local history), I do not base my opinion of someone in India based on the behavior of their co-religionists in Brittain. The reason maybe because I do not harbor a bias against any religion and evaluate people purely as people, whose behavior can only be partially explained by a complicated conjunction of factors of which religiosity is only a part.
@ Siddharta
Wherever religion/caste starts to set agendas for the march of a nation (let alone defining the very nation) things turn to sh1t. There’s simply too much iconoclasm in modern ideals and mores to let it be reconciled with ANY religion. The Arabs and Somalis are just as smart and stupid as Indians at the basic human level….. it’s what political system they decide to hitch their wagons to that makes the critical difference.
What does the history and current state of those alien muslim societies have to do with *Indian* Muslims? Why conflate issues unless you want to say “Oh those damned Muslims are the same useless lot everywhere”….. which is in fact the utopia the Salafis/Wahabbis are striving for. Heck, is the case of Saudi Arabia and Algeria the same? Is the case of Oman and Saudi Arabia the same? Is the case of Yemen and Malaysia the same? Then how can you compare those states with a totally antithetical India?!!!
PS: Iran is doing rather well (in terms of most social indexes) for it’s size and problems and hostile neighborhood, right? And quite brilliant people too…..
Hishi actually means diamond-shaped. Hishi as a noun means water-chestnut which is also an appropriate name for Rishi.
Example: http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/200512/000020051205A0313396.php
Varsha darling/Hishi under another pseud, better luck next time.
US ambassador asks a geo-political question of particular importance to India.
Raul Vinci responds with crass domestic political rhetoric.
The ambassador’s question wasn’t about Islamic terror. It was about Pak-sponsored terror.
At the end of the day, the Congress brand of politics is far more dangerous than green or saffron terrorism.
@anonymous
I am not Varsha. GB, please confirm.
@ Greatbong
“The reason maybe because I do not harbor a bias against any religion and evaluate people purely as people, whose behavior can only be partially explained by a complicated conjunction of factors of which religiosity is only a part”.
Response:
“Yad Bhavam Tad Bhavathi”.(You become what you think)
And nothing frames one’s thought more than what one beleives in.
But I appreciate your point of view.
Ah H2B2! I ain’t no Hattori Hanzo katana with an MBA like you…. I am more of a Lupara you know. Not very useful.
Interesting you bring up Nazis again and again. Like, your favorite the argument of “wasn’t terrorism against Nazis actually good?”. And in relation with your “will Hindutva terror become like Islamic terror” I got a cpl of observations:
Remember how these Nazis actually came into being? Those nascent right wing “social clubs” goaded by Austrian Germans and eugenics and the Freikorps and all those paramilitaries which were used to put down Rosa Luxemburg’s revolution. They also started out “seeking astitva” amidst claims of how peaceful they are in intent and prophecies of how the rise of their system shall be peaceful. In fact Hitler was sent to spy on one of these organizations and he fell flat for that spiteful political theology.
In fact divisive and wagnerian prophetic theologies attract the same kind of human flotsam and “confused” young men and women everywhere… be it Pakistan or India or America.
Since the 90s and globalization and our coziness with US a lot of right wing thought, including extreme views, has been trickling down into India…. just like the 40s-80s spawned a lot of extreme left thought strains. The existing but sidelined POV of the RSS simply got a power-up with that devolopment…..
More on that later but let’s come to your “PRINCIPLE – IS TERRORISM OF TERRORISM = TERRORISM?”…. which I call Equation No. 1…. though you have put a question mark at the end of it. (It’s clear what you are saying though)
As I predicted here’s someone with a lot of Just Cause arguments. Millions of Hindus were killed by invaders professing to Islamic faith…. no one’s disputing those facts. No one’s disputing chronic vote bank shenanigans either.
Yet from a law & order POV how would it look if numerically superior start to take ad hoc decisions due to situational rage (as you claim) and lash out against convenient targets? I mean, these duffers were hardly blasting those villas at Clifton, eh? It’s not terrorizing Hafiz Sayeed at all… it’s simply scaring the living daylights of some random Abdul in the neighborhood mohalla. If this kind of thing goes unchecked it will soon come to a stage where such actions re the norm….. and THAT is called institutionalized fascism a la the joy that is Pakistan. And should the BJP and RSS etc who claim to support the Indian political system sit back and support such ad hoc judgements and violence and mayhem.
Ok, now let’s take claim no it ain’t ad hoc but there’s a group of “super patriots” who have only the interests of the Hindu nation in mind. Again, is it not a sabotage of the parliamentary system that the BJP and RSS etc publicly profess to believe in. Isn’t it the system many have taken an oath to protect from threats inside and outside… and within the ambit of the law?
The BJP says that they don’t believe these people accused of Hindutva terror are committing terrorism….. even THEY don’t publicly say such terrorism of terrorism = patriotism. And in a huge organization such as BJP/RSS there will be powerful leaders who see the folly of such acts and such strains of thought and help quash those bugs. I am actually counting on that….
BTW, it might be your personal opinion and lets leave out the BJP/RSS for now. I am not saying the following in jest or to score a brownie point in a blog but I’m really curious:- If you are in India and you are typing in your support for the “equation No. 1” aren’t you breaking a cpl of laws? And if you are in the US and a permanent resident haven’t you signed some document saying “No. I have never oppressed any minority-social or religious”. Isn’t “equation 1” actually a justification to random/organized violence against a community underneath all that gloss?
Just curious.
But hey…… I think I have an answer myself! If you are in India they will let this pass; after all there are Muslim blogs out there which justify terror against Hindus. AFAIK the only ones arrested so far are those sending threatening emails and all. In the US you have Stormfront and David Duke with even more explosive sites and they also thrive. So enjoy maadi….
@ H2B2
>> “NUMBERS – BLACK AND WHITE”
Continuing in the same vein as my previous post it’s just a matter of time and convenience and “inevitable synchronicity” as the pracharaks say. Now you may call my argument “slippery slope” but I say this is “thin edge of the wedge”.
After all, didn’t the Nazis actually start as a bunch of “sporting clubs” and “reading clubs”? Weren’t the Bolsheviks kind and cuddly for a while after the revolution till Trotsky declared to his allies in the Givt, “Spasiba suckers. Now WE claim the whole house! Urrraaaahhhhhh!”.
@Balal SP
“I mean, these duffers were hardly blasting those villas at Clifton, eh? It’s not terrorizing Hafiz Sayeed at all…”
Would you support “Hindutva” if lets say, one day you find out that some Jihadi safehouse in Clifton has been blown up by the Chaddiwallas?
Keep your response to the point.
@ H2B2
>> SUSTENANCE – TREE AND BRANCH
While Hinduism on the whole is actually deeper and wider than any other religion it can be bent to suit the convenience of certain sections. Case in point, the caste system. Or what, the whole thing was a black legend and it was setup by the British? Isn’t that the new netpracharak discovery?
What is going to stop someone, who claims to represent political dimension of Hindutva, from claiming that so-and-so constitute a danger to the faith and the adherents and it is duty as Hindus to strike back with extreme prejudice? They can even throw a couple of verses from the Gita on your face as theological backing. The Jihad of Salafi/Wahabi and medieval Islam is anchored in a few Suras. I mean, out of the 6346 Suras how many deal with Jihad? AFAIK the culprits are 12 verses and a handful of chapters of those umpteen hadiths…. THE hadith of Bukhari has IIRC one chapter which speaks about Jihad. People here know which of those I am talking about…. every other day a net warrior comes and copy pastes from HVK/Ibn Sinan.
What is going to stop such people from twisting Dharma and redefining it to meet political needs? Is Dharma actually static or is it also subject to abrasion of time and changes in society? What is the guarantee that “fighting for dharma” or “fighting for sadh-jana” won’t take the same hue as “striving for Allah’s cause”? Jihad’s root word is Jahada which means striving. If a particular political group like wahabis/salafis can utilize a few verses for their needs why shouldn’t some cynical Hindu leader sitting on the Gaddi of political hinduism not do the same?
I personally find this “we shall never do this ” and “there are innaee corrective mechanism” tiresome and simply wrong. I mean, where was the corrective mechanisms when we were defeated time and again by invaders and necrosis of the society?
@ H2B2
>> CONCLUSION – BSP, SHOW ME YOUR MONEY
I dunno if you will take my currency…. at least at fair market rate. I can show you the beef packed thick in my sandwich but I dunno if you’ll eat it.
The homegrown analogies you put here don’t hold….. and I sure don’t agree with your probability = nil charge too. Hindus are people too…. sometimes stupid, sometimes brilliant, sometimes scared and sometimes brave. They are as vulnerable to mob psychology as Muslims are. There are as many cynical and corrupt Hindus in political leadership as there Muslims in political leadership. Well, unless of course if you claim that simply being a Hindu makes you much better as a person. There’s IMO no guarantee that they are lily white pure, always cognizant of “what is right”….. and history has shown that to be the case.
Perhaps the only difference *right now* between Hindu and Muslim terrorism is there ain’t any surplus petrodollars flowing into the former’s coffers. But that’s just an accident of history and plate tectonics. If there are such levels of surplus resources with Hindu groups a lot of it could and WILL flow from “true believers/sympathizers” into the bank accounts of Hindu terrorists. And now that Indian Hindus are becoming richer…. about as rich as the Jewish diaspora…. I think Hindu terrorist groups would be in as good footing as Muslim terrorists (if they ain’t wiped out before that of course).
Just my thoughts.
Corrections…. I mean Ayats (verses) when I talked about Surahs (chapters) two posts ago.
Pliss to forgive only.
Some might call him also a saffron terrorist…
A MUST WATCH,VIDEO ABOVE!!
OMG!! All this scatterbrained rant and half truths, lies and pulpit thumping from Balal Sangh whateva, and all you said can be summed up as,
THE PERSON THAT HAS THE CHANCE OF BECOMING BAD, IS WORSE THAN THE PERSON IS ALREADY VERY BAD.
I think a Durga Vahini girl took your tiffin from tolu when you were a kid. Atleast that’s how your writing comes across as.
When there is a robber at Balal sangh parivar’s house, he doesn’t try to catch the robber, he breaks his own legs first.
Why?
Because one day Balal Sangh Parivar could have become a robber after he himself got robbed.
That’s the Rahul Gandhi logic.
@ Kusum Singh
If you can patiently explain your stand and enumerate your viewpoints vis-a-vis like H2B2/Khujur (at least for most of the time) and a number of others here, that would be more productive.
And bhy the krodh, ji? What’s the rage over a little exchange of views on a blog…. albeit one India’s most popular blogs?. Who’s going to convert or get converted by a slew of these glorified tweets here? Who’s world view and sanity are going to be shattered by my take- a single person’s take on these issues? BTW, aren’t there FAR more far-right wingers than oscillating-at-the-centre guys like me here or the occasional commie/pinko? And if my views don’t even merit existing on this blog Greatbong will delete them. Till then why can’t we have a little exchange of views? I made my points let’s see what the others have to say.
Balal,
I just read through all the comments.
Am just amazed at the patience you have shown in all your posts, in the face of provocation from almost all the respondents.
It’s really refreshing to find a sane voice amidst all this rabble-rousing. Infact, your views seem to be more balanced than even Greatbong himself. (I liked GB’s retort to H2B2 though). Do you have your own blog? Can you please send me your email ID?
p.s. For the records: Rahul Gandhi should not have compared one brand of terrorism with another. It was indeed an irresponsible statement, but what more can you expect from a politician?
IMHO, Both brands are dangerous to the country. Equally dangerous? I don’t know. So, why don’t we just leave it at that?
I find it somewhat amusing that whenver there is a comparison of Hinduism versus any religions, there are a couple of points brought out to corner the Hindus (a) The caste system (b) The practice of Sati and the current Khap system
(a) The caste system as we know of, has slowly been eliminated from the urban mindset, and slowly being eliminated from the villages. The only people interested in that are those who want to keep their vote-banks alive, like the Lalu Yadav’s and the Rahul Gandhi’s – a brilliant plan to the effect was hatched by Arjun Singh, former mentor of the Dynasty in his term as HRD minister
(b) Sati has been eliminated, but the problem of Khap exists – we cannot hide this fact. However, there have been a number of progressive Hindus who have spoken against this on various forums, GB included.
Compare this with the fact that still in parts of the country like Kerala, whenever a Muslim gril marries a Hindu, a great deal of commotion takes place. We have protests when a Rizwanur is killed, no such thing when a Hindy boy is found dead for eloping with a Muslim girl in a Kashmir police station. Till date, I have not been able to find a single Muslim voice in any forum against this barbarism
Anyways, that is besides the point. As I said earlier, leaders like Rahul Gandhi with their cronies in the media have tried to focus on this point – prove to certain sections of Hindus that their religion is as bankrupt (or even more) than others, make them ashamed of their origins ,and force them to think -“We must prove ourselves to be secular”. This is the real danger, and this is exactly the reason why Congress and Commies stay in power. And the biggest culprits are usually the Bengalis
@BalalSanghParivar
I can’t believe you really devote so much of your time to giving outlandish reasons to further your baseless arguments. You think the only difference between Islamist terror and Saffron/Hindu terror is that the latter is not supported by petro dollars and might be propelled into something huge with the prosperity of the Indian diaspora. You make me laugh! The biggest difference is that so called Hindu terror has had NO STATE SUPPORT WHATSOEVER from any Government that has ruled India (be it Congress or BJP). On the other hand, Islamic terror is supported by SEVERAL Govts around the world. It’s aided by Saudi Arabia’s economic muscle and Wahabbi version of Islam exported to many other poor Muslim nations, Iran’s radical clerics and Pakistan’s STATE COMPLICITY and above all basic (and growing) sympathy towards radical Islam in many Muslim countries. Read Sadanand Dhume’s “My Friend the Fanatic”.
And the Indian diaspora? Really? The Indian diaspora is one of the MOST educated, law abiding and peace loving which can only be compared to the equally prosperous Jewish diaspora. The Indian Americans and British Indians are perhaps a model minority who’ve EARNED respect with their diligence and dedication. They would perhaps be the last people to fund a Hindu Jihad (if ever there’s one).
A few words for you BalalSanghParivar, I know there are many of your ilk who prosper on the campuses of JNU, Delhi University, Jamia Milia and many “intellectuals” for whom blowing things out of proportion to bash Hinduism is a way of touting their “liberal/progressive” credentials. And before you write me off as a “netpracharak/Sanghi”, let me tell you that I’m no fan of RSS/BJP OR Congress. I have immense respect for Arun Shourie(BJP) just like I do for Manmohan Singh(Congress) and also for our ex Speaker Somnath Chatterjee who used to be from CPM (a party that destroyed my state).
Frankly, I believe it’s Indian “left wing liberals” with their double standards, obfuscations and negationisms are the people who might encourage further Right Wing Hindu Conservatism (though not violent saffron terrorism since Hindus by and large ARE peace loving).
Perhaps, the biggest testimony to that is Gujarat. Shockingly, the more our media heaped negative stories and in some cases open hostility or condemnation upon Narendra Modi, his popularity increased exponentially (even outside Gujarat) and now he is practically invincible.
But I just can’t imagine how Rahul Gandhi started shouting Hindu terrorism before the US Ambassador when he asked a VERY crucial tactical question about Pakistan’s support for LeT which led to 26/11. I mean it was a golden medium to take the country’s concerns to the US. Scary that such idiots will one day rule this nation. Sigh! Chalo yaar, sab chalta hai is desh main.
Good post GB! A trifle short but to the point…. see that you cannot keep Ravindra Jadeja out of your serious posts also… some obsession this 🙂
@ Anirban
Out of so many outlandish reasons you zeroed in the petrodollar support thing? Wow really? Anyway….. while I am always glad I could bring another laugh and cheer to the world I got a cpl of points:
Hindu terror ain’t supported by the state? That’s a newsflash!
The whole point…. the current definition of Hindu terror is that certain sections of major socio-political organizations (within and outside India) are silently supporting if not actively running acts of violence against other communities. This is the case as of now….. and which IMO can very well grow into an uncontrolable monster. Just like that Panchatantra tale of the 5 Brahmins who brought a dead tiger back to life to satisfy their ego.
As I said in my earlier post Indian Mujahideen and their likes may get petro dollars from elsewhere(and that means the Sheikdom and by extension pakistan, duh!) while there would be private players who fund Hindu terror. So what’s your point again? Was it to reiterate my point?
Are you saying not a single NRI would have his/her hand in such criminal acts? Those bombs and detonators and tools of the trade do not build themselves you know…. it got to come from somewhere- right out of the global underground arms choo-choo which Tamil Tiger, Talibani, PIRA whatever
utilize. BTW, literacy and general character of an ethnic group ain’t no guarantee that dangerous thought strains would never take root. False flag ops against NRIs aren’t also unimaginable…. remember all those Irish and catholic groups who thought their donations would go for humanitarian aid in Ireland?
Also, don’t forget how Khalistani terrorism struck a chord in US and UK. Pakistan has a number of ancient Sikh holy sites in it’s grasp…. this led to a number of holy relics falling into their their grubby hands. When a number of disgruntled Khalistani activists fell into their lap the generals promptly armed them with these holy relics and sent them to vilaayat. Out there they were able to flash these relics/icons before expatriate emotionally overwhelmed Sikhs to garner much support- in men as well as money. Another major weapon was of course that single photo of the damaged Akal Takht by our Shekhar Gupta… he was the only one who managed to click that picture the day after the Op Blue Star.
How about the following scenario…. a VHP swami who’s actually an operative for Aseemanad Ver 2.0 goes to the South Cal VHP camp flashes “a piece of the long lost destroyed Somnath idol” and rattles an impressive speech of all the evil Muslims have done/and continue to do today? Wouldn’t he get a blank cheque from the community…. if not a useful NRI acolyte for the cause?
Too outlandish? Stranger things have happened!
And BTW, I do know of the steady stream of RSS types running all around US NRI communities…. in fact wasn’t one of them caught by the DHA on suspicion that he was a terrorist himself? Forget that misunderstanding with the brass-knuckle…. what was he doing with all that explosive literature. Perhaps this particular one was Doing a simple jaago NRI jaago…. any guarantee the next one would be innocuous as well?
I repeat my major theme again and again…. thin edge of the wedge. If you don’t like that argument and think it’s BS just ignore me. I mean, what the hell…..
@ Anirban
BTW, thank you for those kind words were you so accurately described who I am and what my alma mater is. I hope you continue to make such brilliant deductions in future. I mean you say that you are a balanced person who sees the good all across the political spectrum and got an AESA psec-bullsh1t radar …. so who am I to disagree with you.
Pah! Bashing Hinduism indeed.
@BalalSangh Parivar
Bit of a lonely battle for you here eh 🙂
Anyway, let me reply to what you wrote to me.
Yes, you do seem to be in a bit of an ignorant slumber, good you acknowledge that. “RSS ideology poses as big a threat to India as Operation Tupac” If you truly believe in this, I am not sure what can anybody do.
You seek qualitative and quantitative examples, I am not sure if you have ever been to kashmir or know anything about it. You are talking about one dilapidated masjid, hundreds of fully functional temples were destroyed in kashmir. What happened in kashmir, towers over any act of hindu terror anywhere in the freaking world! Historically, Hindus had been in kashmir for centuries and they were brutally driven out. I mean operation tupac vs RSS, what are you smoking my man? You have been spending too many evenings with A Roy I feel.
Your “fears” of extremists hindu groups causing trouble are well justified. Even if I go to the extent of accepting that RSS ideology and SIMI/IM ideology are identical, popular support in their religion (worldwide) and resources(financial and otherwise), make SIMI/IM a much much bigger threat to India.
Any SIMI/IM equivalent force in Hinduism doesnt have any popular support nor any resources from rich Arab countries to cause a 26/11 or kashmir.
@ balal sangh parivar
” My name is BSP and i am not a terrorist”
Really are you a terrorist?
@ GB – “So which country do you think they are less radicalized than in India? ”
True, Muslims in the rest of the world are far more frenzied than in India. Yet isn’t it tragic that this truth rests on the fact that Indian Muslims themselves are quite high on the fanaticism scale? So instead of a compliment to Indian Muslims, it is an indictment. Only it is even more of a scathing indictment of the even more ferocious non-Indian Muslims.
Why do I think they are fanatic? Well it is not secularism that caused karsevak women and children to be burnt alive. It is not secularism that is causing border areas to be systematically cleansed of Hindus. It is not secularism that has caused Kashmir to burn while Hindu Pandits have had their ears cut off. Neither is it secularism when professors in Kerala are havng arms chopped off when their Muslim students dispute the syllabi.
The direct offspring of those who committed the horror of partition just 2 generations ago may be biding their time and lying low for a while. Especially while the embers of memory are still aglow. But as I mentioned earlier, EVENTs change rapidly, and if their docility is calculated and contrived, it will not last for long. The way their outlandish claims, shrill anti-Hindu cries and crude anti-Hindu activities are steadily accelerating, the modesty does appear to be mock.
I suppose you could say that places like Dubai & Bahrain are far less fanatic, but they are insignificant dots amidst the vast sea of ‘true Islam’ represented by mega-nations like Pakistan, Afghanistan and Indonesia.
@ GB – “Radicalised Muslims in UK is a complicated phenomenon having its roots in the desire to form communities of identity against racism and hostility from Whites”.
This is not correct. Hindus & Sikhs faced as virulent racism & hostility from UK Whites as did Muslims. Did they ghettoize themselves like Muslims, or integrate like the Jews so successfully that they are held up as models for the UK middle class?
It is not a complicated phenomenon at all. Muslim non-integration in Sweden has nothing to do with white hostility. Or Germany. Or France. Or Netherlands. Or Greece. Or Italy. Or USA. Or anywhere. Especially since non-Muslim communities in each and every one of these nations have established themselves with perfect harmony, dignity and respect.
Arnabda, it is not host nation hostility. As even European politicians, including mainstream power-centers like Angela Merkel are being forced to admit, the issue lies with Muslims. With Islam.
@ GB – “I also fail to see how the percentage of Muslims who draw disability benefits in the UK has anything to do with radicalism in India”.
I cited this to show that in spite of shrill and relentless past British propaganda marketing Muslims as hardworking model citizens, the current UK populace is seething at what it sees as the real face of Islam. A contribution-less horde of permanent troublemaking benefit scroungers, and bombers to boot.
As you’ve raised the point, I will also cite other parallels, indirect though they may be. A UK Muslim is no different to a Muslim in Pakistan or India, as they`re inspired by exactly the same ideology which all of them jealously love and protect. Thus we see the sins in Islamist Germany being replicated in Islamist France being copied in Islamist UK and Australia. So focusing on an Islamist crime in one area may assist in understanding the Islamist misdeed elsewhere. Now we know that 25% of all Muslims in the UK are not really PHYSICALLY disabled. So either :
‘(a) they`re truthful about their disability, and since it is not physical, they`re suffering from serious MENTAL problems. This is not outlandish, as reports have proved that UK Muslim children are born with a far higher mental disability count than the rest of the populace as a result of con-sangunity. Or
(b) they`re suffering from an acute and chronic affliction of LYING.
Is there any reason to assume this matrix of mental problems/mendacity is any different in India? I doubt it, since the ideology-rooted hatred is no different. So either we are on the precipice of a mass collective mental unhinging of the Indian Muslim mind. Or we have the right to completely reassess the truth of every single word they have uttered to us. LOL, I am joking.
Even then, take a look at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/wikileaks/8208084/WikiLeaks-India-systematically-torturing-civilians-in-Kashmir.html
Second from right seems to be an ideal candidate to claim UK mental disability benefits.
@ GB – I believe that a human being is not programmed simply to react to cues of religion but also of community, identity and local history).
It`s not what you or I think about the matter. It`s what the Muslim community believes to be the case. And according to them, Muslims the world over are strongly and seamlessly woven in to the concept of Ummah.
Their religious books proclaim it, their brotherhood trumpets it. They are one people, one religion, one prophet.
Community, identity and local history are not unimportant, yet they pale in to insignificance in the face of concerted ideological brainwashing.
And that is precisely what is being indoctrinated 24/7 by Mullahs, Madrassahs, Islamist groups and websites. And thus a British Muslim rushes to Pakistan to join his Somali brethren to shake hands with their Dagestani friend, all to learn how to explode Jewish and Indian kids.
We all know Islamist community youth-workers are nothing but recruiters for jehad. We all know that the very essence of a Muslim requires him to cut out an identity completely alien to his peers. Local history constitutes sleazy Congress and TMC and CPM workers all dangling sop after sop after dripping sop.
And thus the community, identity and local history you raise does not compete with the ideological brainwashing; it reinforces it.
@ GB – I do not harbor a bias against any religion and evaluate people purely as people, whose behavior can only be partially explained by a complicated conjunction of factors of which religiosity is only a part.
It is not religiosity of the spiritual variety, Arnabda, it is indoctrination. It is not bias, Arnabda, but stark affirmation day after day as more and more bombs explode and ugly crimes are committed.
And thus in spite of a `complicated conjunction of factors` that should starkly differentiate the Islamist world, we see the Islamist forces gaining chilling concentration. Every day. Every minute.
Do evaluate people purely as people. But also check their rap sheets.
Arnab,
I do not see why you have to be sad! I used to absolutely adore Rahul Gandhi before the Wikileaks. Now I know the apple has not fallen very far from the tree.
Its my firm belief that Congress has been winning in India because it does NOTHING on ANYTHING. They have pilfered the coffers of the nation for 60 yrs and will continue to do so whenever they are in power. However they have been the most silent lot without a stand.
I also belief the death warrant of BJP had been signed with their own hands in Godhra. They were doing a fine job till then. However with that episode they proved to the rest of india that they could not be trusted with power.
Thus Congress could execute their “yeda banke peda khana”. While I can never condone what happened in Godhra, anyone who lives in the Modi state can and will never vote for anyone else looking at the development he has done for it, which by the way, is not my personal opinion but a sentiment reflected by all of the humble middle class citizens and residents of the demography, who I know.
Secular sentiments apart, I think when there is a crunch of resources and your survival is at stake, most men in this country will not tolearate a group of thugs at the center who have a lootfest at the drop of a dime. A center full of independent MLAs who cannot make policy changes is better than a strong center who always will have its share before getting anything done if they ever do.
By breaking his silence, Rahul Gandhi has broken the unwritten rule of Congress, their golden mantra for ruling the country i.e. of not taking a stand on anything. By having such radical polarizing views he has alienated people like me and has forfeited their allegience to him forever.
Its a happy day for India!
@ Kusum ji
“When there is a robber at Balal sangh parivar’s house, he doesn’t try to catch the robber, he breaks his own legs first.
Why?
Because one day Balal Sangh Parivar could have become a robber after he himself got robbed.
That’s the Rahul Gandhi logic.”
–That is the most lucid and personalized description ever.
@ Kaushik Saha
Hindus are stereotyped using the 3 C- Caste, Cow, Curry.
But i blame Hindus for that. They dont know anything about Hindu Dharma themselves.
If you all actually notice carefully, some of the comprehensible stuff coming out of BSP’s pen actually end up being very supportive of Hindutva work.
The other half are reasons that he comes up with that are best described by Kusum ji’s example above.
(since the majority of Indian Muslims, perhaps one of the least radicalized communities in the world today, also won’t buy something this outrageous)?
— ummm actually I am not so sure about that. They might actually be lapping it all up. Sad, but true.
@hhbb
GB knows. You know GB knows. GB knows you know GB knows.
He has set his limit about how far he is willing to talk about it.
Europe is reconsidering its limits. Everyone does. But sometimes its too late.
@BalalSangh Parivar:
I have read all the B.Raman documents that you are talking about. What you need to read a bit is statements from ex-director of IB, Mr. Maloy Dhar, where in his opinion about 60% of Muslims can be rated fundamentalists, 35% believe in Islamic resurgence, 30% believe in isolationist separatism and nearly 15% believe that armed jihad
So, unless you are saying the the ex-director of IB with enormous counter-intelligence successes from Punjab to North-East, is a right-wing communal, fascist, or a “card carrying netpracharak”, its time for YOU to rethink your statements. Your quote Behind online IDs and sitting beyond the reach of cyber law enforcement anyone can feel nine feet tall and paint with such broad, bold strokes — is not valid here. Go read his blog!!
I have never said Hindus have not benefitted from economic resurgence. On the contrary, I WISH that the Indian
Muslims did exactly what the Hindus/Christians/Sikhs/Parsis/Jains/Buddhists did, i.e. make efforts to get educated and become rich and prosperous. But, NO! the Islamic priority, not just in India but worldwide, is their Holy book, going to to Madrassas and implementation of Sharia. I wish that ordinary Muslims idolized Dr. APJ Abdul Kalam or Mr. Azim Premji – but, NO, most idolize Zakir Naik as their savior, and there lies the problem. While the role of media in poisoning the Muslim minds by glorifying Islamic zealots on TV cannot be downplayed, the media is surely a lesser evil here.
What I’ve said, and let me repeat, Muslims are not confused about their priorities in life. It is that some secular fools that have always imagined that the Islamic priority is education and prosperity. Like you I’m also not saying that the state was *intentionally* screwing Muslims. But you are wrong on who prioritized what!
@H2B2 and GB:
GB said So which country do you think they are less radicalized than in India?
H2B2 supported GB True, Muslims in the rest of the world are far more frenzied than in India
I have to disagree with your assertions. In my opinion, today’s Turkey is where Muslims are far more sober than anywhere else, even in comparison to Indian Muslims. If you take into account that in India most Muslims are residents of kashmir, kerala, UP and WB, then you will realize that the average Turkish Muslim is far less radicalized than the average Indian Muslim. Correct me if I am wrong !
PS – Its another thing, that all the reforms by Ataturk Kemal Pasha is about to be overturned by Islamists currently in power, but current generation of Turkey is actually moderate and more tolerant the Indian Muslims.
Since it has been a regular issue during discussion, and since I know many people’s real identity, let me introduce myself.
I am Utsav Chakraborty from Washington DC.
So I hope now, Greatbong has slightly less to worry about and he can allow me to write using my real name (since he knows its me) and you, Balal SP can stop complaining that I am pretending to be 9′-0″ tall.
And the one who writes as “anonymous”- I am scared.
I guess lots of people will start thinking like me now: india is basically still a third world backward country that ‘at the moment’ is growing at 9%….its long term future is bleak. Big deal. Ive just got to make my money, lead a prosperous life and go.
PS: My dad served in the indian navy for 21 years.
Internet hasn’t changed anyone’s opinion. EVER. On the contrary, it has emboldened each person’s belief.
(Disclaimer: This I got from one of those INI folks – another pathetically middle of the road commentators who admonishes BJP first to say something about Congress)
I’ve been following the comments on this and so I’d like to add my 2 cents. The biggest issue is that we don’t have any leaders with SPINE, today in our nation who can identify the real dangers and strike aptly.
I think the only person who is an exception to that rule is our Chief Minister Narendra Modi. He has taken Gujarat to the pinnacle in all fields with his stellar administrative skills, he doesn’t compromise with terrorism and rules with an iron fist and above all appeals to and captures the imagination of millions. Today no other state is any match for Gujarat.
I really feel sorry for West Bengal since I’ve many Bengali friends. They’ve been ruled by despotic maniacs for the last 40 years. Now voting for Mamta would be the last nail in the coffin of a once great state. Bengali people would have to find a real alternative like BJP and not Maoist/Islamist sympathizers like Mamta or dead communists.
What say people?
@ Mangoman
“Internet hasn’t changed anyone’s opinion. EVER. On the contrary, it has emboldened each person’s belief”.
—————
I dont know if that is entirely true. Many a times we do have a change of opinion, but they never admit it (least of all to the person who influneces us).
Specific to East India, internet is the last resort of mass opinion making for the educated Bengali Hindus, since the media and the poltical podium has already been subverted by the Jihadis.
An aquaintance of mine was recently beaten up during a “Kashmir Azadi” talk in Kolkata, for asking probing questions to a Kashmiri Jihadi; and guess what- the people who beat him up were all secular journalists, who were there to lap up what the Jihadi was offering.
@Ankur Mehta
I don’t know how to say this right in Gujarati, but I will still try: “Tamara mukh ma ghee saakhar”.
@Rohit: My heartiest respects to your Dad for serving the country with honour and pride. Please thank him on my behalf.
@Ankur: Mamata does not have a magic wand and the problem with WB is with the Bengalis, with our politicians only one indication of how bad the situation is. Yes, Mamata is hand and glove with the Islamists and things may deprove a bit, still she should come to power for one, and only one reason ->> H-O-P-E. To show Bengalis that there is still hope. Then maybe, maybe things can move up. Who could ever think that Laloo raj can end in Bihar?
or is it: “Tamara moDa ma ghee saakhar.” ?
@ Deepak
Let me repeat my point on extreme Hindutva vs Paki establishment once again-“While the former offers implosion through poisoning and eating away the core, the latter offers weakening-by-a-thousand cuts followed by decapitation and necrophilia.”
The exodus of Kashmiri Pandits and all those gruesome incidents are one cut… there are a thousand more. I feel this has more to do with plain politics and sustaining their black empire (based on drugs and gun running and feudal exploitation) than it has to do with the Deobandi/Wahhabi take on Islam. Tupac extended seeks to balkanize India and create this Mughalistan with the victorious warriors free to run riot on the corpse of India (the rump states outside Mughalistan).
On the other hand the kind of ideology espoused by the far right seeks to set Hindus against Muslims and impart a definite Hindu character on the Indian state. I know this movement far too well to know they deliberately seek to reach a state of violent face/off rather than engaging in dialogue or actually seeing Indian Muslims as brother citizens. The alien-ness and incorrigible nature of the “lecherous Muslim who destroyed many temples 1000 years ago” is THE leitmotif. Hey don’t we have arguments right here sagely saying “The problem is Islam the religion” followed by the usual tirade and copy pastes and esoteric gloss?
Afghan and Paki g@ndus shooting up Indians and bombing us and having wetdreams of enslaving us is one thing…. but it hurts more if misguided people lead India to break up from within. I mean, what good is our armed forces and economy if Hindus and Muslims decide to have a Last Man Standing match.
I know there are many thousands of Indians, probably including some members here who are active in the community building and social service activities of these right wing Hindutva organizations. Perhaps they are not aware of the true parochial and divisive nature of the organization and the actions of certain sections of the organization…. but that’s no excuse to wash off guilt by association, eh? I mean, to use the very popular Nazi analogy it’s like those people at IG Farben/Siemens/Ruhr factories and the wide eyed kids in the Hitler Youth. I mean, looking individually what these people were “laudable” and “patriotic” and perhaps even purely innocuous….. but at a greater level all that played a great part in creating the monster that was National Socialism, no?
—————
@ Nikhimenon
My name is B-B-B-BalaSangh Parivar and main K-K-K-KKKiran se pyar karta hoon.
😛
I Think Balal is actually Arundirty Roy….
@ Debadrita
Maloy Krishna Dhar’s extreme views were the talk of town long before he left service and wrote his books and articles apparently. But then he’s an ex-IB director and simply for that fact I hold him and his views with high respect….
And yet, those percentages he quoted…… did he say how he arrived at it? Did he quote some Govt survey or studies by IB or other intel agencies? Did he make such charges when he was IB chief and when he interacted with senior national/state level leaders many of which could be Muslims? You know, i follow his blog too… as well as the blogs of other retired spooks and portals like SATP and even private forums like BR. Has he provided an explanation/ has he brought out a second article where he explains those numbers…. I mean, that particular post was on a multitude of challenges was it? On all his posts on Islamic terror has he given an explanation for those numbers?
BTW, you pasted the link here and I presume you follow his articles…… could you show me the resources I ask for?
And why don’t you see what the numbers the rest of the commentators quote? Or are they all p-secs in payroll of the congress and Dhar-ji is the only island of truth?
Or is it the second explanation- now that Dhar-ji is retired he’s free to campaign for the right wing cause he believes in? I mean he was like eight when he saw the partition bloodbath wasn’t he? prolly that shaped his POV and all?
And on your point about Indian Muslims being lazy, sullen, dullards high on nostalgia of ages gone by…… oh well, you are 400% right! How could I have not seen the obvious? THEY don’t want to get ahead! :((
@ Khujur
>>”If you all actually notice carefully, some of the comprehensible stuff coming out of BSP’s pen actually end up being very supportive of Hindutva work.
The other half are reasons that he comes up with that are best described by Kusum ji’s example above.”
Oh Lawd, I missed your pearl necklaces of wisdom in the first pass. I am glad you are still faithfully keeping to your limits of comprehension of issues. I mean, one can’t go wrong with an absolutist two-color vision eh?
BTW I understand your need to cheer for Kusum-ji’s cute analogies but I find it to be bilge from stem to stern. Bhat robber-wobber robbing-shobbing breaking-raking, hain? Try this one for size:-
A robber enters my house and I scare him away with my cricket bat. In the melee I get a cpl of scratches and he has broken a window pane. The friendly neighborhood “well wisher uncle” with roving eyes and mid-life crisis says I am trivializing the civilizational struggle of law abiding citizens vs criminals. He asks me to run a bulldozer over the slum “from where those slime usually slither out from” or perhaps settle for bashing up the wife and kids of those slum people when they venture out. And as royalty for such age advice and protection he asks for conjugal rights on my wife and a section of my home and to make my kids play on his lap.
Main pagal he kya, b*chod?
So there! One little homegrown analogy to make me feel warm and fuzzy in my stomach. 😛
@BalalSangh Parivar:
I take particular offense on your statement Maloy Krishna Dhar’s extreme views – because what he does is puts the fact down on the table. Just because YOU cannot stomach it, doesn’t mean he’s extremist. And he is no right-wing pracharak, HE was the crown price of the Congress’s successes in curbing Punjabi terror.
What I find even more disappointing is that you simply ignore the fact that he’s probably the foremost intelligence officer who saw extremism from closest quarters AND was successful in overcoming it. If only we had people like him in Kashmir, I guess terrorism in Kashmir would’ve long gone.
And here’s the cream of your dream-world comments did he say how he arrived at it? Did he quote some Govt survey or studies by IB — Do you really expect a topmost IB ex-director to write all his sources on his blog? IMHO, what he said reflects the sum total of his life long, enriching experience in combating terror. Even more foolish is your expectation that he will make such public utterances while on duty. No respectable military/intel officer makes personal comments publicly while on duty – most do after they retire. That is the right thing to do.
Yes, I follow his blog, as well as Vikram Sood’s, SATP, B.Raman’s,Col Hariharan,Br. Chellaney, intellibrief, INI, and many others. And, I can give you all the resources you want – but I won’t, because I expect you to do the hard work before making silly comments. Please read his books. If you are not satisfied, write to him (yes! He replies).
Finally, don’t put words on my mouth – I never said anything close to what you attributed to me – Indian Muslims being lazy, sullen, dullards high on nostalgia of ages gone by or that THEY don’t want to get ahead. On the contrary, they are quite the opposite. Indian Muslims are extremely hard-working, diligent, sincere, dedicated and persevering. The only thing that you (or any secularist) can never understand is – their dedication is not for the money or gold or big houses or cars or college degree that the rest fancy. And, they are quite ahead of the rest of the world in what THEY want above all. But, I guess you will never understand that. So, do me a favour, kindly stop attributing your silly thoughts to me.
@Utsav:
Why did you change your pseudonym from Rishi Khujur to a new pseudonym Utsav? 😉
@BSP:
“I think Hindu terrorist groups would be in as good footing as Muslim terrorists (if they ain’t wiped out before that of course)”
— Key point here is “they” have to be wiped out before that of course. But then you are talking of branding them as “terrorists” even “before” it has actually happened and have to be wiped out only because of the possibility that in future they may turn out to be aggressive and will have to retailiate against the tyranny by muslims. Ha! what a logic!..If there are so many paranoid people like you, then I think babies born to Hindu Parents from now on will be immediately wiped out just because they have the potential to be a saffron terrorist. Instead I would suggest that let us proceed in the following order:
1) First let us wipe out the cancer called as “Islamic Terrorism” that is already malignant in atleast 40% of the worldwide muslims.
2) Second let’s wipe out the remaining 20% muslims that are partially indoctrinated (need to break their own legs first as Kusum said) and also because Hindu Terrorism has just started (probably in rahul mind) and people silently supporting any kind of terrorism is more in this category than in the Hindus.
3) Finally let’s plan on how to prevent any new forms of cancer which will also include how saffron terrorism has to be wiped out if it occurs.
PS: If all terrorist attacks that occured world wide is collated and sorted out into two bins (Islamic Terrorism and All Other Terrorism including Nazism), then in my opinion the Bar Chart would look as below:
_
_
_
_
_
_
_
_
_
_ _
_ _
_ _
————————————
Others Islamic
Sorry..The bar graph is messed up just like how sorting out terrorism actually is..
Bull! It’s a usual trick to say I CAN show you sources but I want YOU to find them….. oldest shoot-and-scoot trick in the book.
Please indulge me this one time and show me some of the other established non-partisan sources you have quoted here (SATP/B. Raman/Col Hariharan etc) saying that the vast majority of Muslims are radicalized and support terrorism. A huge 60% is the figure the Dhar-ji puts down here…. and he says 15% of Muslims believe in armed jehad! WTH?! We have 20 crore+ Muslims and that makes how many hard core jihadi acolytes?!! AFAIK everyone says *a very tiny number*, at least in the open source media we have access to… why is this person saying otherwise?
And have you actually read his books? In Open Secrets he does talk about his belief in B.J.P/R.S.S. “which are the proponents of Hindutva ideology”. A cursory reading of his articles also makes his political leanings quite apparent, right? And there was an article by a which claimed that Dhar-ji helped the JD-BJP combine to come to power while still in service under Rajiv Gandhi. The meeting and lecture circuit he attends also makes his leanings clear. Again, nothing wrong with supporting the hindutva if you look at it from fundamental right POV. But if such support colors public utterances, which carries much weight since he was top-spook once, then there is a question of credibility.
Once again, unless you show me (and other readers of this blog) that other long established, non-artisan portals/blogs/other sources have spoken of *large* number of Muslims severely radicalized and actively professing Jihad I say Dhar-sahib’s view is an anomaly from the security community…. and I daresay is colored by his political leanings.
Once again on his political leanings, how does his successes in Punjab and Kashmir and NE guarantee that he has no intense likes and dislikes of certain political viewpoints and what he writes is the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
When I asked “where did he get those numbers” I wasn’t asking for any classified material from Govt vaults. When someone like him who occupied a sensitive post dealing with national security makes a hitherto unheard of charge (i.e. such levels of terrorism) he owes it to his readers to tell them what is the basis for this number. He could have said “Oh, it was survey/study” or even “Oh, it’s a number which I personally feel is close to the truth”. It is YOU who’s claiming he’s written this on basis of his years of service….. you got some info on the reasoning behind/veracity of this charge?
And again, is there any other established and non-partisan figure/group which made a charge equivalent to his? Seriously! Maybe I missed out in my net trawling…. pliss to help a brother in need onlee.
@ emc3
yep… from one pseudonym to another…whatever works best. Atleast I feel shorter now.
@debadrida
Malay Krishna Dhar should have been in Kashmir. I am sure there are many other unsung heroes who are doing an equally fantastic job, as he did. But for whom are they doing it?
Just so that people like Rahul Gandhi can sell them off, at the first chance they get.
Contd.
@ Debadrita
>> ‘Finally, don’t put words on my mouth – I never said anything close to what you attributed to me – …..
Oh pliss to forgive me for thinking you said Indian muslims are hopeless, useless cases. What you were saying is that the average Indian Muslim is fixated on religion, religion, religion and religion only and will do anything to achieve that. It rather radical you know…. most netpracharaks and twue(sic) believers make the combo argument. And here’s you saying NO…. only ONE of them is true.
Whiff of fresh breeze from the Eastern Hind…..
Any form of terrorism should not be tolerated and should be smashed …
Now just lets wipe of the religions of the two terror groups and name them just A and B.
A:
1. Formed with an army of misguided people having fanatic leaders.
2. Objective : Reply or Revenge for the actions of the other group.
3. Actual Objective : Political Gains.
4. Funding : Mostly raised within the organisation or funded by some political party.
5. Training : Amature.
B:
1. Formed with an army of misguided people having fanatic leaders.
2. Objective : Justice (Not Sure from What),Religious War against Non Believers (Misintepration)
3. Actual Objective : To create unrest and disrupt stability in a country.
4. Funding : International, Mafia
5. Training : Professional.
You do the math !!!
Having said the above, i do not support any one of them. Both of them cannot be ignored but classifiying which one is dangerous ? I guess its common sense.
@ E=MC3
I am not saying Hindutva terrorists do not exist and there’s only a possiblity that they might exist. I said that *there is* a number of Hindu terrorist groups….. many organs of the state and te current Govt claim so. I know the takleef self-appointed defenders of the faith believe it is all a stunt yadda yadda….. Hey, seriously?!
I also did not say *in future* there might be possibility that Hindu theologies will be used for the first time to set Hindu against Melccha. I mean, the current favorite is “Arise Arjuna, do your duty” ….. God knows what they will come up with later. What I said was that this will be even more serious.
It’s not a question of being paranoid about the future. It is about being personally worried about a newly-arrived-in-town lunatic that’s eyeballing the neighborhood-fixture lunatic and the aam admi passerby RIGHT NOW.
I say again, Hindutva Terrorism is a clear and present danger…. and it has the potential to be even more destructive than terrorism conducted by Indian Muslims…. forget Pakistan/KSA funded terror. And as I spoke ad nauseum in my previous posts you have brought the slippery slope argument (kill Hindu babies to stop hindu terror). Throw me a fr1ggin’ bone here and let me parrot my counter charge that “Nope. It’s a thin edge of the wedge question.”.
BTW, I am sure you have the numbers and addresses of the 40% and 20%. Otherwise you would have called for the usual targeted strike of financiers of Islamic terror….. but it seems you have a more thorough solution. I mean, let’s wipe off the sodd1n’ 40% lot and let Allah sort them out?
@BalalSangh Parivar:
Please indulge me this one time and show me some of the other … …
I believe I’ve indulged you enough – no more. If I show you one more source, you will ask for more – standard tactics. Plus, its hardly my job to educate you on where an ex-director of IB gets his numbers from. As I said, read his books/blog and if you have any doubts, ask him. Neither is it my job to put sources/citations before you on who said what and why others didn’t dare to speak truth. Not everyone has a spine!
Oh pliss to forgive me for thinking you said Indian muslims are hopeless, useless cases. — OK, forgiven 😉
About Iran’s social indexes, I am sure the per capita index is quiet good, but what does the other social indexes tell you?
http://genderindex.org/country/iran-islamic-rep
Yes, agreed. but
No, it does not. Do not ignore the socio-cultural factors, those are the factors that are reflected in the choice of a political system.
There is a reason I said so. These Muslim countries failed to produce anything other than oil in last few centuries. Even without Hindus, if this is the state of their intellectual or industrial output, how are Hindus responsible for their social backwardness in India? I want to see Muslim reformers who will identify the Jihad as the real BS it is and work to popularise formal modern education for his/her community (like Kemal Ataturk, but even he is considered a heretic despot in modern Turkey). Till that happens, the community would remain backward. It does not matter how many sops would be given, community will not be able to progress.
Not same, but equivalent, socially and culturally. With a rare exception of one province in Indonesia, socio-cultural constructs in the Muslim communities in all those coutnries are frozen in dark ages. These constructs showed extreme resistance against forces of reform. The reason they could do so because of the orthodox political theology they follow. Those examples are given to show that it does not take hostility of non-Muslims to keep Muslims in dark, rulers of dar-ul-Islam like Saudi Arabia or Pakistan are good enough.
No single country or community is brilliant, only a tiny percent in each country/community is brilliant. But what good is brilliance if that valuable human capital can not be directed towards intellectual or industrail effort? Hell, even Ilias Kashmiri is so brilliant that he became number two in Al Quaeda and the first south-east Asian (a Kashmiri) to reach the leadership of Jihadi enterprise. Would you not take pleasure in that? If Muslim society fail to put systems that can not direct such valuable human capital towards productive routes, then the fault is entirely theirs. The current ulemas and politicians from that community produce a perverse incentive in doing exactly opposite. Say whatever you want about Hindus/Budhists/Sikhs and their corrupt practices, all these communities have not gone that route.
@BS Parivar,
Just in case it gets misunderstood, the above response is for you.
@ Prasad
A= Naxals
B= Islamists.
Where is my gift check?
@ Debadrita
Oh yaar… except for some avowed nutcase followers of the saffron flag and Dhar-ji (whose intelligence and service is NOT doubted but the credibility of that statement is) *nobody* gives those appalling numbers.
If you had been following ANY of those particular sources you have quoted you would find that they maintain that radicalized Indian Muslims are a *paltry* number. Not this 60% and 35% and 15% dhamakedaar revelations.
Close the issue and ask me to “read his books” and move on….. I don’t care. After all, what goes of my father onlee and what’s the big deal about a POV exchange here and all that. But since you posted that link in this blog don’t you have the responsibility to other readers here to show stablished and non-partisan sources which corroborate such an explosive statement?
And yes, I think I should contact Dhar-ji. Probably he will answer….. I am VERY curious to know how he came up with those numbers. I didn’t at that time ‘coz I was simply too busy with my job in a godforsaken place. Seriously….. I again request you to provide established and non-partisan sources which claim the same.
@balalsanghwhatever
For how many years have you been unemployed? Looks like you got nothing else to do other than respond to EACH AND EVERY comment.
And please shed your false identity pretending to be hindu and admit it that you’re on Digvijay Singh’s payroll.
PS: No one reads the long essays Balal writes to promote his brethren in Azamgarh.
@ Siddhartha
>> “Gender index…..”
You found the gender index…. but what about the Life Expectancy Index, Education Index, Adult Education Index, Gross Enrollment Index, Child Development Index. Actually many of those Muslim nations rank higher than India or China. Okay you can claim our problems are different and we have a larger population and we have no oil etc etc…. but that is actually my original secondary point. How can you actually compare with the wave of a hand Hindus of India/Muslims of India (not *All* Indian citizens) against Somalia or KSA or Iran whatever?
>>”Do not ignore the socio-cultural factors, those are the factors that are reflected in the choice of a political system…..”
Correct. It is a factor.
But again, did Arabs have a choice when the British foisted the House of Saud on them? Did the aam abdul Paki have any choice when all those constitutions (toilet paper more like it) were churned up again and again let alone the Military-Feudal-Mullah complex? I mean, this was a place that once had strong Kisaan-Mazdoor movements and Khudai Khitmadgars and Sindh Congress. Was it the religion of the people alone that led to the current unanswerable, venal leadership that lords over them? or did it have something to do with vortexes of end of colonialism and the Cold War? Again, was it the religion and socio-cultural aspects of Turkey that led to Kemalism….. or even the actions of the three Pashas before him? And right now what exactly is leading to Erdogan’s slant to the loony Islamic right. Is it due to Aam Turk Admi Uvaacha or does it have anything to do with Turkey’s current economy and position in the EU?
One must not blame a religion alone for the state any particular nation/organization is currently in. I mean, that would be like blaming the Hindu faith for the shenanigans of the Extreme Hindu Right. Politics and synchronicity….. these are just as critical as innate socio-cultural mores.
Contd..
@ Anirban
Why can’t I be Digvijay Singh himself? Won’t it be a real Keyser Soze moment which validates the fears and the stated POV of all the netpracharaks here? Imagine!
Perhaps Debadrita is actually Rajmatha and the both of us are playing the Good Cop-Bad Cop shtick.
Oh no….. I replied to that post too. When will I just quit this?! I mean, Greatbong has even made a new post!
>@balalsanghwhatever
>For how many years have you been unemployed? Looks like you got nothing >else to do other than respond to EACH AND EVERY comment.
You mean Bomir-Ban than only Hishi, oops Ooot-sob has the right to be jobless enough to reply to every post made. Does BSP’s replying cause you to get damp? Or are you even more jobless to reply to a jobless man? Points to ponder, Bomir-Ban.
@BSP: Dude you really seem to be jobless. You start your own blog rather than trying waging a war here.
Debate is ok but you sound like a pig trying to wrestle the others in mud. Get a job. Cong maybe looking for someone in UP at the moment
Anand ji ( balal Sangh P)
if you read your own comments, you will realize why anyone will have Krodh on you. Yes, your comments get more and more outrageous as you get deeper and deeper into finding alibis for Wahhabis and Jihadis.
You can prance around with all the faux-witty gestures, but afterall you are no less a threat than people like Rahul Gandhi.
Unless ofcourse, you are the Raja Mansigh class of people who would do their morning Puja, and then lead Jalaluddin Akbars armies into Mewar and massacre thousands of unarmed Hindus ( only because they were Hindus).
Or maybe it’s just the heater not working in your apartment. Work on that alibi for the next Islamic attack.
@ Debadrida- You go girl.
@ Utsav ji- I always knew 🙂 But you don’t write detailed mails anymore.
@BS Parivar,
Ok, please cite me three Islamic super-civilizations whose human social indexes are better than India/China. Supply links that can not be traced back to ultra-right Islamist Organization or Islam-appologist lefty-sounding morons. I would also like to know what percentage of
point to a modern education system. If all Muslim children in my village are reading Qur’an in Madrassa then that results into a high child development index but how much that contribute to the human resource development is open to question. I would also like to know if life expectancy takes into account of the God-inspired martyrs who leave house to join the heaven hunters in Europe, North America or SE Asia.
No, I am not going to claim that. Please substantiate your claims in the first para.
I am comparing them because the social/cultural landscape of a Yemeni Muslim or an Arab Muslim is not very different from social/cultural thinking of most Indian Muslims. The root of their poor condition lies in their orthodox thinking inspired by the teachings of the Arabian speaking God and the perceived superiority over kaffirs and their systems. Your original point was that Hindus are responsible for this condition of Muslims and I beg to differ on that. Let us not get confused about that original point.
@ Anonymous, Kusum & Vinod
I am glad I could make bring some joy to your lives in this season of mirth and love. I will strive to do more in the future.
Here’s a little christmas carol whose sheer spirit and good nature’s gonna warm the cockles of your hearts:
Now where’s that temple I gotta raze to the ground…..
PS: Yeah Debadrita! You go girl… to find those sources. 😛
————————
@ Siddhartha
I hope the organization below ain’t your usual quasi-jihadi bucket and bomb shop.
http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/
Click to access HDR_2010_EN_Table1_reprint.pdf
Click to access HDR_2010_EN_Table5_reprint.pdf
Click to access HDR_2010_EN_Table4_reprint.pdf
>>”The innate nature of Islamic religion makes social development impossible…. no need of competition/enemies……. fault is entirely theirs”
Looking at an HDI point of view are Islamic nations in general worse off than India? Well they do lose out in terms of no. of patents filed and gender equality index and freedom of religion index but what about the other markers for an average human’s existence? They get a bad rep for all those terrorists and those images on TV they love to show and the mere fact that they are (shudder) Muslims but take a walk among those people in their cities and villages….. are they troglodytes and semi-humans living in squalor and misery?
As a part of my day job I have been pretty much *all over* the Islamic crescent…. North Africa to the CAR. Maybe they don’t have Nano factories or PSLVs or a roaring IT industries and gleaming modern cities but their average village/small town is pretty much the same as an Indian village/small town. IMO we can’t write of all those Islamic states as *basket case hellholes*.
Their distinctly Muslim state systems actually have provide at least basic sustenance and standards of living to majority of their populations…. except most Sub Saharan African Islamic nations of course. And I get the feeling they are thankful to Allah the Merciful for their lot in life and therefore there’s this huge inertia against ditching such a system simply so that they can climb higher in the Women’s Lib Annual Review of Nations. I mean, an Indian would look down to women treated as 2nd class citizens and absence of “temples of modernity” and institutions like IIT or Tata but the Islamic states *do* give them basic bread and circuses and remind them of their duty to Allah to follow this setup.
This may look illogical to us but the average Muslim in most of these states attribute their freedom from colonialism and monarchy (where applicable) and new found “izzat” squarely to Allah blessing them for being observant Muslims. It’s usually those who go berserk when faced with cognitive dissonances vis-a-vis rest of the world that picks up a copy a Syed Qutub and thinks he can be the next Saladin….. And of course there’s the ruling complex who find that such asymmetric war is useful when the West turn it’s screws a bit too far for comfort.
It’s unfair holding the large corpus of Islamic theology *alone* responsible for this state; their history and geography and synchronicity play important roles as well.
More on this later.
>> “Your original point was that Hindus are responsible for this condition of Muslims and I beg to differ on that. Let us not get confused about that original point
Nope. My original point was that in 1947 India Hindus and Muslims were at the same level…. i.e. neck deep in sh1t. I did not say that in India *Hindus* are responsible for the plight of Muslims. However, it was (by accident or by design) Hindus that were the greatest benefactors of the massive agricultural and social development programs that were launched in the steam of the indian national Movement and the political dominance of the INC.
BTW, at that time the Indian Muslim leadership was pathetically weak (with a lot of Ashrafs/Sheikh/Nawab types going to Pakilalaland)….. IMO these guys became more powerful after Rajiv-ji’s Govt had the bright idea of backing down from the Shah Bano case.
@BSP
I appreciate your great patience in arguing without raising your voice. quite clearly you are a man of considerable erudition.
I fully take your point that Nehru did Hindus in India a big favor by taking on the fundamentalists and reforming the Hindu personal law. Unfortunately for Muslims, he never even attempted to take on mullas.
But Nehru died long time ago. Why is it that no muslim leader ever attempted to reform his people? I recently came across this fact that in its 30 yrs of existence, no Muslim League leader was ever arrested. They always kept the colonial rulers in good humor. The corollary is unmistakably that realpolitik took precedence over the idealism.
Can the blame for a prolonged failure of the community to reform itself solely outsourced to Hindu majority? Don’t people have responsibility to better themselves? Isn’t the external attribution of blame somewhat similar to obese Americans blaming discrimination against them to be the reason why they overeat.
And while your concerns regarding Hindu terrorism are valid you haven’t provided any substantial evidence to convince others. You blame people for quoting sources which are biased. Some of them are likely to be but it is intellectual dishonesty to claim every source that doesn’t agree with you is biased.
Is the outlook article that you have quoted unbiased? He makes a point that Indian muslims got radicalized after babri incident (plausible in my view) but where is the evidence that proves the cause and effect? India has had a long history of hindu- muslim clashes (In Bangal, there were many in 19th century), surely there is enough raw material to investigate.
You harp on radicalization of Hindus, back your accusations with hard evidence. Calling some one Netpracharak (you do seem to love the word) ain’t it.
The burden of your song is that radicalization of Hindus is a big threat to India, as big or bigger than the already radicalized muslims (only the few that have gone over to the dark side mind you, I am not typecasting here). I am all ears and for all you know you might even be right, but you have offered little more than biased anecdotes and unsubstantiated innuendos to support your view. The current public evidence of Hindu extremism (as against a few eccentric and incompetent freelancers) is rather thin and the burden of proof heavy.
While I hate RSS for their indoctrination of hatred, they are now being called terrorists mainly to support a weak argument. While there have been blasts traced back to hindu morons, the trouble congress and people like you have is that they are not particularly connected and freelance psychopaths are a weak support for intellectual onanism on saffron terror. When you get an organization like RSS blamed, the whole story starts sounding more plausible.
I am not suggesting that Indresh Kumar is innocent – RSS is the kind of place where such crackpots are likely to reside – but going around town labeling the organisation terrorist like the congress and some secular intellectuals are doing is pure baloney.
There are many groups of people I hate (my building society being top on the list) but intellectual honesty prevents me from labeling them all terrorists – a favorite insult of the politicians and the intolerant.
Contd… previous post’s awaiting moderation
@ Siddhartha
>> “If all Muslim children in my village are reading Qur’an in Madrassa then that results into a high child development index but how much that contribute to the human resource development is open to question.”
Nope…. at least AFAIK. It considers only formal education with secular subjects that’s the staple of the 12 yr school system. If a madrassa or a Muslim management institution offers such subjects then it is considered. Otherwise Pakistan won’t keep plummeting down the charts, eh? I mean the number of madrassas mushrooming up all over the place…..
>> “I would also like to know if life expectancy takes into account of the God-inspired martyrs who leave house to join the heaven hunters in Europe, North America or SE Asia”
Yeah right. I am sure suicide bombers constitute a significant percentage of the populations of these countries that development indices taken into account such “population turnover”.
Now this is getting very very interesting. By debating each other’s points, we have very successfully moved away from the real topic – that there are people out there who would feed on (a) a group of people’s physical insecurities (b) another group of people’s intellectual insecurities to remain in power.
What a set of cousins do we have in India – on one hand we have Rahul gandhi, a moron of the highest order speaking of non-existent issues, on the other we have Varun Gandhi who almost single-handedly finished off BJP’s challenge in 2009.
With a dynasty like that, who needs Kasab’s bosses and the petrodollars to blast several nooks and corners of India?
@ Anypenny
I am pressed for time (it’s Christmas eve in this part of the world) but here’s some quick answers. More later.
>>”Can the blame for a prolonged failure of the community to reform itself solely outsourced to Hindu majority?”
As I said 2 posts back: -I did not say that in India *Hindus* are responsible for the plight of Muslims. However, it was (by accident or by design) Hindus that were the greatest benefactors of the massive agricultural and social development programs that were launched in the steam of the Indian National Movement and the political dominance of the INC.
>> “He makes a point that Indian Muslims….. surely there is enough raw material to investigate.”
SATP has a number of articles by that particular author….. he is fully cognizant and makes no apologist remarks on the strained nature of Hindu-Muslim relations in India down the ages. His point is that while you had the occasional Id and Dusshera riots (usually due to some spark like “Hindu slapping a Muslim pickpocket” or “cow blood smeared on temple walls”) the much publicized, live, much trumpeted (as an indicator of how the future is going to be) and potent symbol of the muscle of political Hindutva provided a powerful boost to foreign powers seeking to worm their way into Indian minds. Another article by another security expert notes there were perhaps a handful of Indian Muslims who got swayed by Afghan Jihad and took to Jihad against Indian state. But they were quickly neutralized as their own communities soundly rejected them and tipped off the cops.
Post Babri, this ain’t the case. BTW, Raman-ji in his book “Kaoboys of the R&AW” has dwelt long on Rao-ji’s indecision-decision (“This demolishment cannot and should not be stopped. It is in India’s Karma”) and the prompt speed with which the ISI/Jehadis took up the oppurtunity. Anyway… the point is it is Babri and Godhra riots which they utilize to do what even the horrors of partition failed to do….. convince some Indian Muslims that they are not safe in this country. (Trivia time: If you remember “Black Friday” there’s a scene of badshah khan sitting on top of a hill listening to some Mullah screaming “… hamare masjid ko unhone shaheeeeed kiyaaaa….”. A lot of “Didn’t we tell you so?” tapes from the wiseguys at Chaklala and Aabpara did circulate you know…. and they continue too. Only difference is they say “Gujarat Genocide” more often.)
And notice how vehemently Hindutva orgs deny this charge and say this all began in 712 AD and when Auliya roasted a kebab in a temple? Hah! Theey are more aware of it than anyone else. Just like Hitler invaded the USSR and brought communism to the forefront of the world, the tube-lights in the Parivar brought professional Islamic terrorism and alien Wahabbi theologies into the heart of India in their struggle to claim political mileage.
>> “Why blame RSS for some morons?”
Many stalwarts here and BJP/VHP/RSS continue to harp that the the root cause of Islamic terror is Islam the religion-with all it’s theological corpus don’t they? They don’t go into the actual black & white numbers and contextual readings and say that Wahabbis etc concentrate on certain aspects only, do they? Also they don’t say how that Nasikh/Mansukh thing can be used to blank out whatever verses/traditions the don’t fancy that particular morning.
Well, now let me claim the same saying that the worldview/long term program set down by Golwarkar-jee and Hedgewar-jee and the great minds of the RSS type organizations are the poison tree that yields poison fruit like Indiresh-jee and Sahdvi-jee and Aseemanand-jee. Unless someone does away with the significantly large corpus of literature/ideas that call for segregation and oppression of minorities and all that Hinduism uber Alles stuff (the first ting they drill into you at shakha schools) you will continue to have “reprisal attacks” and “super patriots” like these.
More later….
May be baalwhatever should go and live in saudi arabia and see how tolerant and wonderful the nice wahabbis are since Hindus are such a wretched, intolerant tribe.
@Prasad- YOU SEEM TO BE A SEASONED CONGRESSMAN. THIS IS WHAT THEY DO…
@BALALSANGH PARIVAAR- YOU SEEM TO BE STUCK AT THE WRONG PLACE. STILL,I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU WANT TO CONVEY. CAN YOU REPOST YOUR VIEW IN A FEW LINES AGAIN FOR MY BENEFIT. AT PRESENT,I CONSIDER YOU TO BE A CONFUSED LIBERAL!!
Balal
Are you suffering from stockholm syndrome ?
@BSP-Your comment,”there were ID and Dusshera riots”. Sorry,but there were only Dusshera riots,Hindu processions were disrupted by muslims. Hindus started slapping muslims only after the formation of the Sangh. Hindus were humiliated for centuries!
Hindus are only reciprocating. What Middle East is to muslims,India should(not is) to Hindus. But,India does not assert it that way.India does not intend to finance “opressed hindus” all across the world to start a rebellion. But,you find Ahmedinaijad(Iran’s president) speaking in favour of Jihadis in the UNGA.
Lastly,muslim view of sticking to the holy Quran without any moderation is a issue.
My standard questions to a muslim like you:-
1)How do you justify polygamy? (Do not get into the sex ratio crap)
2)How do u justify hijab? (do not say its self practised)
3) Why don’t muslims eat pork when they eat beef which is more harmful than pork??
@ Anirban
Ummm let me think for a second. Hmmmm…. how about NO?! For all her problems India is India and I happen to like her like she is. It’s the grotesque entity that some seek to turn her into that tempts one to make contingency plans to flee and live as a yak in Bhutan.
My point remains…. KSA or Egypt or Libya maybe backward in some respects compared to India but they are hardly the “cesspool of misery and squalor and paleolithic lifestyle, singularly due to the sham of a religion they profess”.
@ A Raja
Vanakkam aiyya! Saukhyama?
I don’t know if I have the Stockholm Syndrome or Malignant Narcissism or Messianic Delusion or Psychotic Xenophobia or all of the above, but why don’t you get your Parivar (family) doctor, that illustrious physician Dr. Mengele, to drop by and diagnose me? He has prescribed some brilliant Final Solutions which your ilk would very much like to try in India, no?
@BSP- Why are you giving irrevelant examples of KSA,Egypt and Libya. Egypt’s Husne Mubarak has already been outcast from muslim community by Deoband’s fatwa. KSA/Middle East is surviving only on oil. Also look at the population of these countries,all these three countries combined will not be more that the population of UP.
Islam is not the reason for the prosperity in these countries.But,Radical Islam(not Islam) is the reason for turmoil in Pakistan and Afganistan.
Also,your continuous rant (like Owasi from Hyd) about radicalisation of Indian muslims post 1992. How many dates do hindus have to remember in the History?
In case Hindus forget History, Kashmir does not allow them to do so.Radical Islam lead to division of India and is still doing it.
Too much moderation on my comments!!
Balal
Family doctor is Dr. Qwatrocchi and you have to visit him at Italy. It would be difficult for him to see you in India.
@Balal Sangh Parivar
Thanks a lot for the links.
One thing you did prove by giving those links and I hope this, you will remember for any further comments. I hope all secularists are reading this as well.
There is no direct correlation between poverty, development and Jihad.
Some of the countries with relatively higher Human Development Index, will continue to support ad fight Jihads (sometimes with evern more aggressive use of resources).
Even though this was not part of the debate itself this time, But I have been trying to get the secularists to admit this for a long time. Thank you for doing this.
@ Balal Sangh Parivar
thank you for all the hard work in proving that despite higher “progress” and better quality of life ( relative to Hindus in some cases), Muslim countries continue to fight Jihad and cause destruction as a matter of principle.
What you have managed to prove , while defending Rahul Gandhi’s POV, is something that many people have talking about for a long time and secularists have been trying to obfuscate, because it clearly points the finger of inspiration (for commiting acts of terror) to Islam as a ideology, rather than to causes like poverty and education.
Thanks for spending all this time defending your position, on the anti Rss platform, while proving a bigger issue of contention.
Enjoy your holidays, then come back a write huge posts countering the fact ( that islmic idelogy is a bigger inspiration for violencevthan human development ( or the lack of it).
Who knows we might be able to get some more neiggghhhs from the horses mouth.
Anand (Balal Sp)
While intellect has never been the forte of India’s first family-for at least the last three generations-the future PM of India has proven beyond all doubt that he is indeed the true heir to the family silver.The only factor that would have softened the blow -even for die hard Congressis – is that the “Yuvraj” has been a gift that has gone on giving-even when so little was expected of him.Even in the midst of such an obvious train-wreck what is truly appalling is the sight of the “intellectuals” and “principled leaders” of India’s oldest party trying hard to justify the utterances of the “leader” -a spectacle that would put even the likes of North Korea and Iran in far better light.
Perhaps the only silver lining to the entire sordid affair was the fact that his interlocutor-the then American Ambassador- had a better estimation of India than the would be PM himself.Perhaps the Yuvraj is, after all, just what the doctor ordered for India to rid itself-once and for all-with it’s fancy with the Nehru/Gandhi dynasty and, if ,as so widely predicted were he to become the country’s next Prime Minister, it would only be good that he be tested at his present half baked state; than perhaps at stage much later when he would have become-as an after effect of his own inborn arrogance and the shameless sycophancy that surrounds him-a new Sanjay Gandhi.
@ Siddhartha
Thanks for setting the trap for BSP.
@ Kusum
Oh My! You should share such brilliant insights with us much often. From your “conclusions” and cry of “VICTORYYYYY” I dunno what ruminant digestive tract helped you ingest and absorb what I posted all through. I mean …. seriously!
Higher HDI and other indices hardly means that poverty and illiteracy have been completely wiped out, eh? Do you even know how those indices are calculated and the research methodology? RTFL (Read The Fr1ggin’ Links) for Allah’s sake!
Certain readings of the Koran and Islamic jurisprudence *do* provide a case for Jihad; nobody’s denying that. yet other conditions that greatly increase chance of people turning to terrorism (i.e. poverty, illiteracy etc) still exists in varying degrees in those countries….. even those rich oil sheikdoms. BTW, majority of the foot soldiers of Islamic terrorism come from the harsh landscapes that have always yielded harsh people. For example in Egypt it is the shanty towns of Asyut; the same areas which were once strongholds of all those Nitrite and Parablani in Christian Egypt. In Yemen it’s the Hadramaut and in Turkey it is the windswept North Eastern plateau. In Iran the old Basij and Pasdaran as well as the current organizations in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon & Israel are staffed by people hailing from the Khorasan.In loony Pakistan the fully unhinged loons hail from the NWFP badlands and other Tribal Areas. In KSA, the Najd is a hotbed…. it gave us leading lights like Ibn Wahab, Mohammed Qatani, Sultan Otaibi and his grandson Juhayman Otaibi etc….. even long before Osama and Al Qaeda.
BTW, who ever claimed education and wealth is a guarantees that someone does not turn to crime, anarchy, jihad, communalism/fundamentalism or maoism? Hey, every single netpracharak here calling for direct action against all Indian Muslims is some techie or MBA (and *everyone* hails from middle/upper classes of society). Hey, AFAIK most of these are NRIs in Vilaayat to boot. As I remarked in a previous post it’s those confused, maladjusted and malcontent elements who gravitate to the those fundamentalist readings of Islam…. this holds especially for the more affluent Jihadis (and even Hindutva Terrorists and Frothing-at-the-mouth Netpracharaks on the other side of the equation).
@ Utsav
No one with half a brain would take the position that Higher Standards of Living & Literacy implies there would never ever be terrorism. However, there *is* a direct correlation between levels of terrorism and such factors.
And haven’t I said that this professional Jihad thing is simply politics by other means? For the cost of maintaining one professional soldier the pakis can send a dozen louts with head full of glass and a kalashnikov to do some damage on India. There’s plausible deniability, brownie points are earned with the mad mullahs, a little more taqleef for the hated Indians, the foundations that support their military-feudal-narcotics complex becomes incrementally stronger, they get that warm fuzzy feeling in their stomach- “I am something for the faith”, punks who could very well star Pakistan’s Most Wanted now feature in the multi-color posters outside the JuD/LeT’s offices….. win-win only. Well, at least this is what passes for logic in that country. Hah!
And KSA….. that’s another story. Maybe later.
@ Utsav
>> “Thanks for setting the trap for BSP.”
Oh noes….. I didn’t see THAT coming! Alas…. the sheer intelligence and foresight makes my henna-dyed beard to fall!
Did you intelligent guys help pen the script of Abbas-Mustan’s Race too? And what next…. ask me if I still beat my wife?
@ BSP
and what exactly did you add in the past 2 mails, that is new to what you have been writing before?
So you do admit that the ideology of Islam is has overriding role in violence by Muslims-more than develomental, eductional or regoional factors.
Bilal SP
I have been reading your half smarta$$ half moronic hate comments for some time. tell me one thing. 80% Hindus in India and poverty rate is around 40-50%. Why dont they turn jihadis or terrorists if poverty and backwardness is the cause for turning radical.
@BS Parivar,
First, thanks for the links. Interesting stuff indeed. A bit closer look achieved this: http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/ihdi/
This is inequality based human development index (IHDI). IHDI indicates the difference in the status of an average citizen and the avergae HDI as listed in your links. Note the high list for Arab nations and nations in SE Asia and you will notice why my comparison is valid.
Second, it would not be correct to read too much into HDI. Criticism exists against HDI. For example,
Click to access bagolin.pdf
http://freakonomics.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/22/what-does-the-human-development-index-measure/
I am going to quote interesting portion from second link written by a reputed economist:
It is not a surprise that oil-rich Iran is doing better than Thailand in HDI.
Third, outcome in statistics is only valid when other indicators provide better view. The supposedly first world countries (mostly old-colonisers) have a high HDI, low IHDI and also provide significantly other indicators like gender equality, industrial output and patent filing (I really do not give a damn on human rights index, it is so deeply politicised and commercialized). The Muslim nations seriously fail in this regard. Why do you think that happened? An Iranian or Quatari child is not worse or better than an American or Swidish or Indian child. If (s)he was given the same schooling why are there no patent filing activity or Amartya Sen/S Chandrasekhar (admittedly they did most of their work outside India, but their education was mostly in India and we are talking about human development here) or a nano or a flexcube software coming out of those countries? Where do you think the gap is? The modern education. Do you have any evidence to show that is not so? Even in the dark ages, Europe was full with church promoted schools that used to teach theology and faulty sciences. If HDI was measured then I am sure they would have come at a very high place. What sort of output was produced then? Multiple crusades? It is only natural that today we have Jihad.
Then,
Please allow me to remind you that I have not said any such things. Our primary focus is on two things:
1. The equivalence of the situation of an average Abdul in other Muslim nations and that of an average Abudl in India.
and 2. If non Muslims are responsible for this bleak situation Muslims are in.
Why do not you comment on these directly?
Really, they do? What does the following report tell you?
http://www.thedailynewsegypt.com/development/arab-nations-need-to-tackle-poverty-lines-finds-un-report-dp1.html
Yes, of course. Along with the responsibility to engage themselves in Jihad. At one hand, you have deep problems with Hinud Rashtra-wadis and on the other hand you love those Mulsim theocracies for providing “basic bread” to the people (while UN report says that is not true). Of course, it is quiet true that such UN reports that does not sustantiate your “opinion” are motivated by causes similar to those dishonest women’s lib movement, I get you.
Yes, why do you think that happens? Education, once again.
Aahhh…those bloody western countries again. They are the only ones who inspire those human bombers. It is also quiet true that Saladin wannabes want to be rule by blowing themselves into bits in the streets of Tel Aviv/New Delhi/New York. Thanks for the entertaiment.
Yes, they do serve as factors. But they fail to provide an excuse for doing nothing to improve their situation.
How much of that benefit reached even Hindus? At one hand you are saying that Hindus were not responsible for Muslim conditions and on the other hand you are saying things like “by accident or by design”. These are your biased speculations you are trying to pass off as facts, right?
Which world are you living in? A good number of Muslim league leaders lived in India even after Pakistan got established. Examples are: The Raja of Mahamudabad, Begum Aizaz Rasul, Raja of Pirpur, Maulana Hasrat Mohanti. Try this:
http://www.jitegabharat.com/showthread.php?5571-Jawaharlal-nehru%92s-in-his-belief-infallibility&p=5652#post5652
NO, the opposite. Rajiv had to back opposition to Shah Bano movement because these guys were powerful. Please show the decency to stay away from rewriting history. You are free to believe what you want but do not try to pass this off as facts.
@Balal Sangh Parivar
You have a lot of information. But when you try to misrepresent one point to support your argument, you end up supporting another point from the Hindutva side.
And then you are forced to write longer and longer posts trying to cover up your previous misrepresentation, and it becomes a vicious cycle.
At the end, the only thing positive that you bringing to the table, is a cute sense of humor, poorly masking your sanctimonious attitude and a vat of garbled cacophony.
Would you be interested in supporting the RSS if you saw some flies dropping in Clifton?
@BS Parivar,
How do you know what is considered? This is exactly what I tried to find in their website and I did not find anything.
Bombers? No, but Jihadis. A significant part of Talibans and Al Quaeda cadres are formed with Jiahdis coming from mid-east Asia and Europe. Would you deny that?
@GB,
Kindly release my comment from the queue.
@ Everyone
BalalSangh Parivar who posted on December 24, 2010 at 7:09 pm ain’t me. I’m the Real McCoy.
This identity theft is a new trick here….. and actually I am bit flattered.
@ Utsav
I have consistently maintained there is a direct correlation between social conditions and Jihad. (in this blog…. and outside). In a number of posts here I also said there are verses in Koran/jurisprudence issues which can be used to build hate and foster Jihad. So what is this “climb down” you refer to? Pliss to illuminate me.
And BTW, where did I say the theology of Islam is the overriding factor (your words)? Do you take that “poisoned tree” statement…. but even there I clarified that “…due to interpretations of a few verses…”?
———————–
@ Siddhartha
>> “How do you know what is considered? This is exactly what I tried to find in their website and I did not find anything.”
Should I have do a Debadrita and said (except that I ain’t looking to make a hasty retreat)- “I want YOU to look for it. But I CAN do it you know! Grrrrrrr!”.
Okay, what did you do with the info I posted? Clicked around a couple of links but did not find the readymade answer? You should have approached the data like this:-
1. Look at the first link http://hdr.undp.org/en/statistics/ and navigate to the page where they have info on education (it’s in that tab called statistics):
2. Whoopie! Here’s the link under the title “2010 Report Table 13 – Education [99 KB]”: http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2010_EN_Table13_reprint.pdf
3. Open the file and look at the parameters. What does the vertical columns say? “Access to Education>> Primary Enrollment Ratio and Primary Enrollment Ratio”
4. Anyone interested to actually understand the issue would naturally find out how are the parameters defined. And anyone who has ever written a professional report knows there should be a legend/footnote pointing to the reasoning & sources etc.
5. Scroll through the pages and find the info at the end of the whole thing. The “sources” say UNESCO Institute of Statistics.
6. Google UNESCO Institute of Statistics (or just ISCED) + religous education and among a host of articles you find their own publication:
Click to access ISCED_A.pdf
7. Study the document or at least run a fr1ggin’ search….. you will find info on Pages 15, 16, 20-well, the rest of the document.
Even a cursory reading will tell you why there’s a grey area/legal loop hole regarding Madrassa education. For example, there’s a reference to “center based” education in page 20 and “In some cases religious instruction is featured” in Page 23.
Now it’s my knowledge of things like the New Educational Policy of pakistan (1959), the periodic dilutions, Govt firmaans considering madrassas as “centres of learning” down to the Nayyar Report which made me suspect they are gerrymandering/gaming the system within the ‘definition leg-space’ offered by the UN (so as to gas up their literacy levels). And despite I felt the UN actually threw up their arms in despair and gave in a “reservation quota” or maybe they actually conceded that point. It’s THAT particular piece of information gap which made me say “AFAIK madrassa education….”.
I am sorry I did not spoonfeed you on how to search for further info and feel the need to share my gyaan on Education in Pakistan (But still I did refer to Pakistan falling in the charts” didn’t I?).
Hope this helps.
Previous comment to Siddhartha is awaiting moderation (links again!)
@ Utsav
>>”You have a lot of information. But when you try to misrepresent one point to support your argument, you end up supporting another point from the Hindutva side. And then you are forced to write longer and longer posts trying to cover up your previous misrepresentation, and it becomes a vicious cycle.”
Like?
I mean…. care to be more specific rather than do this one liner dismissals shoot-and-scoot?
>>”At the end, the only thing positive that you bringing to the table, is a cute sense of humor, poorly masking your sanctimonious attitude and a vat of garbled cacophony.”
Thanks! Anything to bring a smile on your faces. 😀
>> “Would you be interested in supporting the RSS if you saw some flies dropping in Clifton?”
If you mean dying of old age or dying in a lovers’ tiff….. no thanks! I like my sanity you know.
Also, I know enough about blustering bullies and slimy charlatans to see who is actually brave and committed and who will be the first to drop knickers, grease up, bend over and grab their own ankles. So please don’t give me that ishaara hyperbole on what the RSS/BJP/VHP will do to enemies of India.
@ B S P
you wrote:
“I have consistently maintained there is a direct correlation between social conditions and Jihad. (in this blog…. and outside). In a number of posts here I also said there are verses in Koran/jurisprudence issues which can be used to build hate and foster Jihad. So what is this “climb down” you refer to? ”
Response:
All I say is that you combine the 2 points and we are on the same page as RSS.
@ Siddhartha
>>”Note the high list for Arab nations and nations in SE Asia and you will notice why my comparison is valid.”
Hullo….. I am looking at the Inequality Adjusted HDI here: http://hdr.undp.org/en/media/HDR_2010_EN_Table3_reprint.pdf
Even here I answered to your original challenge of “Ok, please cite me three Islamic super-civilizations whose human social indexes are better than India/China.”. Pretty much all Muslim nations outside sub Saharan Africa have good standing.
I mean, I didn’t get you…. what is your point? Maybe I am being dense here. Pliss to help only.
>>”Second, it would not be correct to read too much into HDI. Criticism exists against HDI.”
Heh Heh. First you ask me to provide non-partisan sources. I bring the fr1ggin UNDP! Now you say “don’t read too much into HDI”? Hello… this is a methodology that’s followed and approved by the whole lot of countries. Just because it is being criticized makes it bogus and fit to be scrapped? Heck, the comments on that site itself has rebuttals to the the author’s POV.
And again, what should I do now if according to you the HDI-sheDDI is also not kosher for you? “I really do not give a damn on human rights index, it is so deeply politicised and commercialized” – your words. Get someone from the a$$-end of Turkey and make a podcast on how good life is to him?
And please tell us what should replace the UN methodology as well….
>> ‘….Where do you think the gap is? The modern education. ….It is only natural that today we have Jihad.”
I have answered that point on Madrassa Education approval by UN. I’ll repeat again…. UN makes it pretty clear they are talking of secular education BUT there are some loop holes. Pakistan next door has gamed that system without much luck….. and so far I haven’t seen reputed non-partisan sources say that it’s the same thing in rest of the Islamic world. Do YOU have sources which say so?
>>” The equivalence of the situation of an average Abdul in other Muslim nations and that of an average Abudl in India.”
Again, what equivalence? You simply can’t make the Islam is a monolith and Muslims are same in all respects everywhere! Except for the factois that they are all Muslims? Perhaps there are some similarities (not equivalence) as we go down the layer cake of society.
>>”If non Muslims are responsible for this bleak situation Muslims are in.”
On the Indian Hindus and Muslims and post 1947 policies I have already replied. Twice.
>> “The daily news Egypt report”
Hello? Where did I say those were lands overflowing with milk and honey? Isn’t that the whole point of argument on HDI (relative levels of poverty etc?). And note what they are saying in that report…. to do even better and meet Millenium Goals. Other than that snippet on rising unemployment where’s the doom and gloom?
>>”Yes, of course. Along with the responsibility….. I get you.”
Heh. I “love” those theocracies, eh?
BTW, care to revisit this section after you clarify on my first point in this post (the UN and IHDI thing). Aslo, on one hand you say you think HDI etc are useless and now you use the same report to say I am wrong. Bhat this is only? Make up your mind.
>>”Aahhh…those bloody western countries again…”
So the West has never ever harmed these nations in the past and in the present? Forget the “leave our sacred lands” and “Israel Supporter” hyperbole…. there are a number of occasions when interests diverge. There’s also a chequered history like Operation Mongoose and Sykes-Pigou and all. And it’s true some bright lights in those Govts (or private parties with no authorization at all) launch little Jihads.
>> “A good number of Muslim league leaders lived in India even after Pakistan got established…..”
A good number means a significant portion if not a majority right? I see only a handful of names. Perhaps you have actual numbers and comparison tables?
Ok…. forget numbers-shumbers, these people you quoted were leaders of gigantic stature or simply political minnows, academics or some of those gilded peacocks with little influence…. the kind who meekly went into the wilderness or meager hajj/jamaat committees of their mohallas?
Care show us how these people continued to be *powerful* politicians and social leaders. I am a student of post Independence history vis-a-vis minorities and princely states….. but I spy with my little eye and don’t find these guys in the mainstream.
I am serious…. I really would like to know. Perhaps I missed out.
Or did you simply run a search and copy paste without knowing the issue in depth? At least have you read at least Narendra Singh Narila if not the other authoritative books on partition and it’s aftermath?
@ Siddhartha
Sorry for not replying to your comments in your order of posting…. I guess one was in the moderation queue when I read the comments space and replied.
@ Siddhartha
>>”How much of that benefit reached even Hindus? At one hand you are saying that Hindus were not responsible for Muslim conditions and on the other hand you are saying things like “by accident or by design”.”
Forot to address this point.
By design I meant the Nehru-Shastri-Indira cabinets and planning commission and assorted babus. You know, the iron Frame and all that. Perhaps there were some hard decisions to be made on which policy to be followed, whom to target first etc. I mean, even at that chaotic/zero starting point state they must have known which groups where would be main beneficiaries of the policies.
On that “did it reach Hindus” question if you mean did that go to the pockets of the BJS and RSS or Swatantra…. nope.
Here’re some pointer….
1. What was the percentage of muslims in India’s agricultural force at that time?
2. What was the percentage of ryots/bonded labor/sharecroppers left in India were Muslims?
3. Heck…. what was the percentage of Indian Muslims in India’s rural population? Wasn’t the Indian Muslim population (I mean post-partition independent India) overwhelmingly urbanized?
So…. was it by accident or was it by design? Was it synchronicity? Was it the pen of some babu sitting in Central Secretariat? I honestly ain’t 100% sure you know….. but I *believe* those hard decision were consciously made.
@ Siddhartha
Oops… not “Operation Mongoose”. I meant “Operation Ajax”!
Mongoose was Bay of Pigs….. Ajax was Kermit Roosevelt and Mosaddeg.
Sorry!
@ Siddharth
So now we have reached the Bay of Pigs with this fellow (BSP). For the next few posts it will be smoke from Cuban cigars, then off to Pearl Harbor.
A classic…… Period
One of your greatest fan
GB Please put up this version. Better formatted and a few more thoughts. Thanks…
@BSP
>>>”Can the blame for a prolonged failure of the community to reform itself solely outsourced to Hindu majority?”
>As I said 2 posts back: -I did not say that in India *Hindus* are responsible for the plight of Muslims. However, it was (by accident or by design) Hindus …the INC.
By putting the words ‘by design’ in an otherwise logical prose you are using an unsupported innuendo to buttress your argument. In any case, the bigger issue is why did the community fail completely to reform from within.
>It is Babri and Godhra riots which they utilize to do what even the horrors of partition failed to do.. convince some Indian Muslims that they are not safe in this country.
This is a classic pamphleteer statement. Add a lot of hyperbole to a pinch of truth. Babri is a very complex issue in my mind and I don’t want to start discussing it here but there were no Godhra riots. There was Godhra massacre and post-godhra riots. So there is no culpability of the Godhra muslims here is it? Or should we now go by Justice Banerjee report which claimed that it was all an accident?
I hold no brief for Modi who is very much culpable for mass murder. When the state turns on you where do you run? But we should not forget that Indian state is an extremely cruel master and it can turn on anyone. I occasionally get nightmares of being in the shoes of Ruchika’s Father. There are countless more stories like that where no religion is involved. Secularism in persecution I suppose.
At least some part of the blame lies with the Muslim community.
We live in a politically correct world where you are not allowed to call a spade a spade. You say Africa is a wasteland, you are a Negro hating racist. You say bhayyas are dirty and rarely follow traffic rules, you would be accused of MNS membership.
Supporting the underdog to the hilt logic does not take anyone closer to the solution ‘cos there is no middle ground left.
The word genocide is used very often in context of Godhra. Is it one? The official toll 1100, unofficial around 2000. 22% of the official death figures were Hindus. Large scale rioting yes but genocide, hardly.
The post-Godhra riots were a heinous crime but the consistent use of hyperbole in describing them is counterproductive.
>Just like Hitler invaded the USSR and brought communism to the forefront of the world, the tube-lights in the Parivar brought professional Islamic terrorism and alien Wahabbi theologies into the heart of India in their struggle to claim political mileage.
Here you are on the Same page as Digvijay singh. So Sangh parivar is Hitler now. When you start losing an argument why not shout loudly. If that doesn’t work, a kick in the groin will.
Can you back that extremely malicious assertion with some logic?
>Many stalwarts here and BJP/VHP/RSS continue to harp that the root cause of Islamic terror is Islam the religion-with all it’s theological corpus don’t they? ……….
Read you words again. How is your argument different from those who say what the F they killed our people we will kill theirs? You are responding to a lot of posts and it seems to be tiring you intellectually letting the biases show.
>Well, now let me claim the same saying that the worldview/long term program set down by Golwarkar-jee and Hedgewar-jee and the great minds of the RSS type organizations are the poison tree that yields poison fruit like Indiresh-jee and Sahdvi-jee and Aseemanand-jee.
Don’t mix Indresh with Sadhvi and Aseemanand. Indresh is from RSS others were freelancers. BTW Col. Purohit was also involved in a blast right? So is the Indian Army a terrorist organization in your opinion? And those guys are bound to be more dangerous than LeT, I am sure Pak Army can give a testimonial to that effect.
You have this nuanced view of islam and apologist (though mostly internally consistant I admit) argument for how one should not blame the religion for terror, even though the religion enjoys almost 100% marketshare in deaths caused worldwide. But when it comes to RSS/parivar you believe that your facile ‘paint everyone with the same tar brush arguments’ are good enough.
RSS was formed by a homeopath in 1925. If you read the man’s early thoughts there is nothing there. He was just a glorified PT teacher. While originally the target was the empire, during the riots around independence he shifted focus. His successor was more psychopathic so he turned it more radical.
Currently it is just a collection of pompous fools united in a decaying organization. I am from Nagpur – the place where RSS was found and I know a few senior members. The backbone of the organization has been Shakas – branches where people come together for an hour in morning or evening. That network is shrinking. With real estate boom, open spaces are harder to find these days and cable TV is a tough competitor.
To be a pracharak, you have to give up your family and be a bachelor for life. Not to mention, live an austere life (no expense accounts ). As you have repeatedly said that Hindus have done better than Muslims in the last 20 years. Not surprisingly, new Pracharaks are hard to find.
They do SEEM more influential these days than say late 80s – early 90s when their power was at peak because they have learnt to play the media game. It is interesting that the top brass of RSS shifted from Nagpur to Delhi to be close to the power center around the time their power base started shrinking
RSS the terrorist threat is just a straw man created by people like you sometimes out of dishonesty other times out of ignorance.
Look at the Muslim brotherhood instead. Founded around the same time (1927) it has gone one to achieve worldwide fame and success despite the disadvantage of originating in Egypt.
Underlying all you post is a misplaced righteousness. It is misplaced because you are not a neutral observer but a rabid hater of BJP/RSS/whatever. How are you different from right-wing ideologues?
The many references to obscure world events are just your way of telling people that ‘don’t mess with me, I am a widely travelled bigshot know all’. Not many are getting browbeaten into submission though. The core issue here is whether hindu terror a bigger threat to India than muslim terror and not whether Saudi humans (are even women classified as human there?) are more developed than Indian humans according to some bureaucrat on tax-free salary.
And one last thing, that Christmas carol link you posted what does it prove? You want to shock us all with the revelation that there are christen zealots out there. Thanks a lot. But as an ex-Hindu atheist who likes his stake rare, I believe it is a rather nice joke on those who take their religion too seriously.
Heh Heh. I am still here.
Dear Impostor, do continue with the shtick if it calms your troubled spirit. Posting on a blog like this is not a right, it’s a privilege you enjoy at GB’s pleasure. So I guess your life as me here would last only till GB becomes aware of his property being misused.
But I don’t mind your shenanigans…. I am actually quite tickled by the spectacle of some sorry person somewhere trying to be me. And I know that the people who followed the debate here (even if they don’t agree with me) have enough sense to see who’s the true BalalSangh Parivar and who’s the 13 Rupee Note.
Merry X-mas.
@BSP
Happy Mitrotsav….not “Merry X-mas”!
@ Anurag
Isn’t actual Makara Sankranti at Jan 14/15? I mean scientifically winter solstice was over a cpl of days ago but according to Hindu astrology degree corrections the festival is held on Jan 14/15.
Thanx anyway for the utsav wishes….. though (NSFW link follows) THIS is my kind of utsav.
(It’s way better than the Utsav here, eh? I mean… Make love, not war. Na jaanoon Mulla-Qazi, na jaanoon Kaaba-Kashi, ban jaao prem piyaasa re. Relax, have a Charminar and all that.
Oh okay….. that’s enough Hippie Luv for now :P)
@BSP
I have been reading your comments with some degree of interest and while I do not share your opinions, I admire your erudition and devotion to the subject.With regards to your conclusion that governmental policies are to blame for the plight(?) of the average Muslim in India and the consequent rise of extremism/terrorism from within the ranks of that religion I would like your reply on the following questions.
a)With the urgent need of the hour being reforms in the long standing feudal system,how could a newly independent India have concentrated it’s all too scarce resources on other issues?
b)Assuming that your contention -that of Hindu’s being disproportionate beneficiaries of state policies- is correct, for the sake of argument.How is such a phenomenon against our secular ethos?Weren’t those Hindus who benefited from such policies benefiting at the expense of other Hindus as well?Isn’t it also true that a major share of those who benefited from such policies were subjects to organized discrimination for generations, and thus deserving recipients of such a largesse?
c)Why isn’t it duplicitous to suggest that Muslims-who were for generations before the advent of the British, the privileged ruling class -should be offered “the first claim in national resources” and at the same time declare that one’s undying faith in secularism?
d)Isn’t religion a strong motivator-if not the only one- in the war that Islam has unleashed across the globe, notwithstanding the vehement denials of apologists and the so called ‘moderates’ that they are fighting against a plethora of factors -from classical colonialism to neo-colonialism to cultural invasion that has nothing to do with religion?
and lastly
e)Why is it that when it comes to this particular religion that the normal principle of reciprocity seems no longer to apply,and concepts like tolerance,freedom of conscience and dignity accorded to the individual etc., are practised more in the breach; with token show-piece exceptions?
@ BSP
You wrote:
“Also, I know enough about blustering bullies and slimy charlatans to see who is actually brave and committed and who will be the first to drop knickers, grease up, bend over and grab their own ankles. So please don’t give me that ishaara hyperbole on what the RSS/BJP/VHP will do to enemies of India.”
Response:
Well, the least you can gain, will be a plethora of sound bytes that you can sprinkle around, the next time you are scatterbraining and topic hopping.
1. Since you are living outside India now, how about you begin by donating a few dollars in helping Hindu and Sikh families in Bajaur Agency that have been directly effected by the Taliban. You can do more than that too if you want.
Yes.. there are still Hindus in the forbidden frontiers of Pakistan, and you can reach out to them. Heck who knows, through them you may even be able to convey Rahul Gandhi’s message to the bearded Muttawakils out there.
2. Clifton is not cup of coffee, Anand. I bet you dont have the balls for that or for that matter, even the first point.
@BS Parivar
About the nature of education, you still failed to provide a proof that the education in Muslim theocracy meant modern education.
1. The parameter section in your given document does not provide any such info. There are all sorts of stuffs but no definition of what they call education. I already checked long before your tutorial on how to look up a report. Would you mind showing this illiterate commenter how to find the definition of education from the parameter section?
2 Then when you understood that that may not be enough, you tried to throw another link about and UNESCO orgnaization which classifies education programs. The report is from 2006, where the survey comes from 2010 and there is no interrelation between these two documents. Even then, the document does not clearly tell us about the modern education system in theocracies. Therfore, your hard attempt at obfuscation not withstanding, you failed to establish that HDI does not consider madrasa/religious education.
That gives you the right to make a blanket statement that HDI does not take religious education into account? Is dishonesty a word too harsh in this context?
I am sure I do not know how to do “research” like you do, but the benefit is that I do not have to make claims that I can not back up.
@BS Parivar,
I am directly challenging you to establish the validity of HDI in determining the capacity of good administration in a country. Just because you can quote a report, it can not be beyond any challenge. The entire idea of bringing IHDI in the context was to establish that the same data when viewed against a different dimension gives a picture that was painted in the reports cited by you.
No, just because there is a UN label attached to the report, one does not have to take it as a divine source. Clearly you believe that UN is infallible, so criticism is brought in here to give others a direct understanding of what HDI is and what does it indicate.
Federation of American Scientists did a somewhat non-partisan study on Madrasa. The report contains a brief discussion on the countries where madrasa education dominates:
Click to access RS21654.pdf
It does not bear the holy stamp of UN, so it has to be partisan I am sure. One more unholy report on Saudi Arabia and it’s education system (by a western in Afghanistan):
Click to access 4464.pdf
Really? What have we discussed so far then?
Twice I replied why your points do not stand.
No, you did say that they are doing far better than the other countries. The entire point of IHDI and poverty-lines contradicts your point. You provided HDI to show that their education sector is working great when you yourself are not sure what education means in Arab countries. I will leave it to the other readers to determine what picture emerges from that.
I have said that it would be incorrect to depend on HDI alone and ignore other factors (that I have listed before). If everyone thinks HDI is a great indicator for human development, then there would not be any criticism against it. When, for the first time you brought in HDI, you tried to claim that these reports establish the superior jobs that theocracies are doing but when we take all the factors that is clearly not so.
You are clueless, are not you? West did, but when west left them long time back, the ghost of colonialism can no longer be an excuse for incompetent despots.
As I sadi, you are clueless. When is the last time you know nawabs or sultans of rajas of states are meek supporters of some committee? Can you, the brilliant “researcher” and the incorrigible seeker of documented truth, supply proofs behind these claims?
Your mastery of “Independent history vis-a-vis minorities and princely states” is obvious in the fact that you did not even know these names before I put them in front of you.
These are among the people bankrolled the merderous riots triggered by Muslim league before the independence. It was only nawab who created Muslim league. After independence these are the people who supported new Muslim league and organizations like peace party.
While I am convinced that you are the most knoweldgable person on partition in this forum, I am not able to find the poage where Sarila mentioned about left-out Muslim leaders in independent India.
A correction:
I wrote,
It should be read as “when viewed against a different dimension gives a picture that was in direct contradiction with the reports cited by you.”
@BSParivar,
Perhaps? I mean? I thought that you have the proof that Nehru/Shastri/India wanted Hindus to be beneficiary only. Perhaps, this was an RSS conspiracy, no? VHP? Bajrang Dal?
I do not know answer to these pointers. Perhaps, as a seeker of documented truth you know. Please supply them. Since, the claims were made by you, I expect the proof from you.
Good. Nobody ever won the fight against beliefs. Most of the BS you wrote here are your beliefs modulated with seemingly independent links that unravel your convoluted reasoning at close examination. Keep believing these things, I have no issue with that. Problem arises when you try to claim them as truth. Oh, I forgot!! That was your belief too.
@BS Parivar,
I just now find out Prof. Jagdish Bhagwati’s view about HDI here:
http://www.rediff.com/business/slide-show/slide-show-1-this-is-how-economic-reforms-have-transformed-india/20101203.htm
A relevant copy-paste:
I am sure Prof. Bhagwati is also as “unacceptable” as Mr. Dhar since his views are not in direct agreement with yours.
@ Siddhartha
>> ‘About the nature of education, you still failed to provide a proof that the education in Muslim theocracy meant modern education…..you failed to establish that HDI does not consider madrasa/religious education.”
and
>>”…That gives you the right to make a blanket statement that HDI does not take religious education into account…..?”
Sigh!
The Table 13 (Education) chart document I posted has two fields for percentages of primary & secondary school age populations. The footnote at the end of that document also says which standard/source have they used for the data, viz. the ISCED 1997 handbook.
If you have checked “all that of stuff” as you claimed in that ISCED manual I posted you would have seen that it provides the definitions of Pre-Primary, Primary, Lower Secondary, Upper Secondary, Post Secondary and Tertiary Education. It also defines continuity in education programs as well as streams of education once the student reaches Secondary Level etc.
As I said in that earlier post this ISCED manual actually defines education to be secular…. a system the Pakistanis tried to game. Now forget all the initial writeups in that document (which you have obviously “checked”) which explains the philosophy of their standards…. right in Page 22 we have “…. programmes at level 1 are normally designed on a unit or project basis to give students a sound basic education in reading, writing and mathematics along with an elementary understanding of other subjects such as history, geography, natural science, social science, art and music. In some cases religious instruction is featured”. The next pages show how this is directly expanded/carried forward into the higher levels and how options of streams of study within this basic framework are defined.
Does this looks like the UN accepts if “education” imparted is merely in memorizing religious texts? It’s the pakistani Govt which accept hanifs (memorizers of Koran) as “educated as per global standards” and makes them Professors of compulsory Islamic studies. Heh…. hafiz Sayid is the Islamic Studies prof in a fr1ggin’ *engineering college* in Lahore!
And bhai, your comment on the 2006 reprint of the ISCED standard (actually made in 1997) being invalid is hilarious to say the least. It’s clear you have no idea what you are talking about despite the “Bah Humbug!” hand waving dismissals.
Let me quote from the UNESCO site “The present classification, now known as ISCED 1997, was approved by the UNESCO General Conference at its 29th session in November 1997. It was prepared by a Task Force established by the Director-General to that effect and is the result of extensive consultations of worldwide representation. ISCED 1997 covers primarily two cross-classification variables: levels and fields of education”.
THIS UNESCO-ISCED revision is the current *global* standard which provide guidelines for the education boards of ALL nations part of the UN….. and is the primary reference for CBSE/ICSE/SSC. This set the rules of the mill in which all of us here were ground into shape for 13 years. They are now preparing a draft for a new standard next year called ISCED 2011.
BTW, a cursory googling for ISCED standards or a brief walk in their site would have yielded ISCED mappings where you can find out how these states education programs adhere to UN standards. Go ahead and “check the stuff”….. it’s got data on KSA and Pakistan as well.
Contd…
Contd…
>>”..I am directly challenging you to establish the validity of HDI in determining the capacity of good administration in a country….. No, just because there is a UN label attached to the report, one does not have to take it as a divine source….. I am sure Prof. Bhagwati is also as “unacceptable” …”
So you don’t accept the UN indices? Fine with me….. but I ask again: what scientific methodology of gauging the development levels do you accept? I mean other than Truthiness and Wikiality of course!
Care to help us ignorant folk still wallowing in the darkness and harping on UN standards? I have seen some alternatives where definitions, philosophies and methods of data collection remained the same as UN indices but differs in the mathematical tools used to arrive at the index from all this data. And even then…. the differences from UN HDI rankings is very little.
And the criticism by Dr, Bhagwati. It’s fully within his rights to criticize the HDI….. but isn’t his (and a few others who share his view) opinion vastly outnumbered by other economists just as (if not more) reputed as him who swear by these indices? I mean, Amartya Sen is one of those…. and so is perhaps every economist who specializes in developmental exconomics. And to nitpick, isn’t Prof Bhagwati a specialist in international trade? BTW, FYI the beef his school of economic thought have with HDI is actually more in regard to Theory of Value, economic growth indicators and the mathematical linearized averaging methodology rather than the definitions, philosophies and methods of data collection.
Your own quote of Dr. Bhagwati’s words talk about this linear averaging, doesn’t it? Does he anywhere say the UN philosophies and definitions of parameters like education levels, enrollment and representation of education and other development indices (or the methods used in data collection) are wrong? Do you have any references on this? Pliss to help out onlee.
Contd.
>> “Federation of American Scientists did a somewhat non-partisan study on Madrasa. …..report by a western in Afghanistan…… No, you did say that they are doing far better than the other countries. The entire point of IHDI and poverty-lines contradicts your point….I will leave it to the other readers to determine what picture emerges from that… ”
First, that Christopher Blanchard report…. it is not an FAS study as you said. It is a US Congressional Services report which they simply hosted on their site.”FAS did a somewhat non-partisan study” indeed (YOUR words). Man you really are just a google warrior aren’t you? 😀 Didn’t you at least read the front page wher they have CRS written in Size 24 font? And do you even know what the damned FAS is? It is bunch of Non proliferation Ayatollahs, most of them not even scientists, who have made it their lives’ mission to get India to do a C-R-E on her nukes! Heavens!
okay, let’s get on track now….
If you look at the IHDI report there’s a column which shows how the position on the countries changed when inequality correction factor was considered. See any major changes there?
Secondly, I didn’t say I did not know what education means in *Arab* countries…. I said I didn’t know for 100% if *Pakistan’s* dilution of UN standards was accepted. Also, when I asked about “rest of the Islamic world” it was made amply clear I am referring to replacement of UN approved education by religious education. I specifically said they are allowing people whose sole skill is in memorizing the Koran being accepted (by Govt ruling) as educated degree holders by all global standards.
The Michaela Prokop documents you have linked to clearly talk about the creeping levels of religious education in KSA and certain institutions making study of Wahabbi Islam mandatory. It doesn’t say that secular education was done away with altogether and replaced by study of the Koran etc and people with secular education were given academic postings, does it?The introductory paragraphs themselves speak about emphasis on “undermining of the current system” and “emphasis on religious teachings”.
Coming back to your “non-partisan study conducted by the FAS’ 😀 didn’t you see those comments on how confusion is caused by “semantics” when it comes to Pakistan and “relationship between madrassahs and other educational institutions” and “curriculum”? Doesn’t the whole article speak on lines of Madrassahs vs Secular education and how acceptance of Madrassah system as equivalent to global standards by the govt is worrisome?
PS: Do note that point on Indonesia which says the some *primary and secondary school children* attend Pesanterens….. isn’t that like christian school kids in India going to sunday school or going to catechism classes in regular school hours? It’s pretty much the same thing in the rest of Islamic world….. and the Prokop article says the system is being undermined in KSA.
BTW, you readily believe reports by individuals and the “FAS non partisan studies’ but dismiss strategies and reports of the UN, which have been created after global consultation? Kamaal he! Anything for a soundbyte, eh?
Contd.
@ Siddhartha
>>”As I sadi, you are clueless. When is the last time you know nawabs or sultans of rajas of states are meek supporters of some committee?…. Your mastery of “Independent history vis-a-vis minorities and princely states” is obvious in the fact …… It was only nawab who created Muslim league…… While I am convinced that you are the most knoweldgable person on partition in this forum, I am not able to find the poage where Sarila mentioned about left-out Muslim leaders in independent India.”
😀
Heh heh…
I ask you to provide resources to YOUR claim that “most* ML personalities stayed behind AND were stiff influential in Indian politics. Now you ask me to provide proof to MY statement that they went into the political wilderness. Yeh kya badminton-shadminton he?
Why don’t you provide the information I ask for first (to substantiate your “majority stayeed back” claim and “these leaders continued to be very influential in Indian politics” claim). That is, info from reputed sources providing exact information of the leaders you mentioned. Doing so would imply that they did not go into the wilderness and become inconsequential pipsqueaks and that I was wrong, no? After by your words seem to say you know a lot of the activities of the people who stayed back so it must not be a problem for you to share all that info here. (“Your mastery of “Independent history vis-a-vis minorities and princely states” is obvious in the fact that you did not even know these names before I put them in front of you.-YOUR words.)
Wokay?
PS: Kindly check if those luminaries you mentioned ever won an election or became a top honcho for the Indian Union Muslim League formed in 1948 or any major political party. I mean, at least in the level of Hifzur Rehman, Ahmed Ibrahim, Maulana Hussain Ahmed Madani, Ishaque Shambhali, Quaid-e-Millat Ismail Sahib, Seethi Sahib…. all of which were against partition and broke off from the original ML by the time the Indian Constituent Assembly was formed or were never members of it. Heck, see if they even headed important institutions (Muslim/Secular).
Srsly! I would like to know.
Contd.
@ Siddhartha
The Begum Aizaz Rasul whom you quoted in your original list split was against ML view for partition…… IIRC she was one of the significant number of leaders who voted against the 1940 Lahore Resolution. But unlike Fazl-ul-Haque she wasn’t chucked out immediately. You know she actually argued against any sort of special considerations for Muslims like UCC when she was elected to the Indian Constituent Assembly. Later in her life she even left the IUML and stuck to secular politics and even became a minister.
@ utsav
You know Bulla (Yeah what? You’re calling me Anand which definitely ain’t my name), kindly tell us which NGO works for aiding specifically he Hindus in NWFP. I mean, specific details like who lead the NGO, the office addresses, the overhead ration (i.e. how much of my money is actually going to the target group and not to buy vibrating beds for the NGO leaders) and which areas are focuses. That is, it is providing legal/governmental aid against oppression or scholarships or building hospitals/schools etc. If that agency is to my liking I will surely contribute.
BTW, don’t give vague answers like VHP Global/VHP USA/whatever…. there’s no saying where the money would go. I ram looking for an NGO with a presence in the NWFP which actually runs significant ops there. “Reaching out” is too vague a term and that can include even the very enlightened Govt of Pakistan.
And on the Clifton thing (which sure ain’t a cup of coffee), care to tell us what you Big Swinging Appendages with ginormous gon@ds actually plan to do with the luminaries residing there? Kindly educate those of us with no balls for “that”… whatever “that” is.
@ bsp
Hare Rama Foundation based in Lahore is co-ordinating the work.
Hare Rama Foundation (HRF)is non-Government & non-profit Organization, registered under Society Act (1860) with Government of Pakistan.
FACTUSA (factusa.org) a non profit registered in USA will be able to send 100% your tax exempt donation to HRF for supporting the Hindus.
You can contact at my id rishi_khujur@rediffmail.com for more details.
Look forward to hearing from you.
Others who would be interested in supporting Hindus in Pakistan can contact too.
And BSP, once again, thanks for asking.
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1101226/jsp/foreign/story_13350376.jsp
Hear !! Hear !!
what to say abt sonia raj ! the basic food items have sky rocketed.
Justice system is failing ..Investigative agencies are busy helping illegal fund transfers.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Bureau_of_Investigation)
Media is publishing what the politicians and industrialists want them to write.(Radia Tapes case).
Jay Ho! (mind it …congress has purchased rights for this song..and BJP plays Mahengai Dayan and Munni badnaam to counter this bollywood fight..LOL)
Does’t female congress members feel unsafe, given the kind of criminals congress harbors ?! Imagine sitting alone with ND tiwari…you can guess what goes in his mind all the time !!
Great piece… I have been following your blog since quite a while… You have a great knack of putting in exact words, the thoughts going on in most of the peoples mind… Hats Off!!!
Gujrat?!
Heh …congress gonna sue Google very soon !!
why ??
Search – Gandu Family
http://www.google.co.in/search?sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=gandu+family
Internet Hindu .. you see!! LOL