As the impasse in the Middle East continues with Israel responding to acts of terror committed by Islamic Jihadists with unimaginably brutal force setting into a motion a swirling vortex of punch and counterpunch that has shocked the world with its virulence, the question that is uppermost in our minds is ‘How do we stop the madmen, how do we bring about a resolution’?
One approach that has been tried, without much success we may add, has been to try soothe the savage beasts with offers of carnal pleasure. Cicciolina, 55 year old, Hungarian-born ex-pornstar and Italian politician promised to sleep with Saddam Hussein in 2000 and 2002 and with Osama Bin Laden in 2006 in exchange for a commitment to renounce terrorism and violence.
Speaking at an erotic fair in Bucharest, Romania, Cicciolina said: “It is time someone did something about Bin Laden, and I am ready to do it.
“I am ready to make a deal, he can have me in exchange for an end to his tyranny. My breasts have only ever helped people while Bin Laden has killed thousands of innocent victims.” [Source]
Since not much came of these offers (some people do prefer virgins in the afterlife to hand-me-downs in real life), we can presume that it would be a waste of time in making a similar offer to Hassan Nasrallah, the head of Hezbollah.
Because renunciation of violence is impossible, Israel is trying the next best thing. Namely sealing its defence systems against rockets being fired by Hezbollah rocket launchers across from the bay into Haifa thus dropping civilian casualties inside Israel to zero.
How?
Yogic flyers (link courtesy: S. Pyne) using transcendental meditation techniques will create a force shield against Katyusha rockets.
In an interview from the Nof Ginnosar Hotel near Tiberias on Saturday, the Prime Minister of the Peace Government of Israel and Yogic Flyer Alex Kutai called on the elected Israeli government to recruit a group of 265 Yogic Flyers who, through an advanced technique of Transcendental Meditation (TM), he asserted, would create a shield of invincibility around Israel and bring about an immediate cessation of violence with the Hizbullah.
Prime Minister Kutai, who is also the Chairman of the International Transcendental Meditation Society in Israel, said his elected counterpart Ehud Olmert had to urgently find a group of 265 people trained in the TM technique and maintain them in one location where they can generate an invincibility shield around Israel against all forms of war and violence, including road accidents, and keep the shield up permanently.
“Ten days before this latest round of violence broke out between Israel and the Hizbullah, we received an urgent message from the headquarters of the Global Government of World Peace that there was an immediate danger of violence in the region, and that each country had to mobilize its Yogic Flyers – those who practice the TM technique – to ward off the danger,” Kutai said earnestly.
According to Kutai, the Yogic Flyer practices an advanced meditation technique in which his or her consciousness is brought to a level where thinking is without content, where the Flyer connects with the “source of all energy and intelligence – beyond any thought and at the same time the source of all thought.” Kutai said this state is what physicists call the United Field of the Laws of Nature. [More here]
The problem is that they have only 30 such trained TM-ists and need 235 more since 265 is the number of TM-ists needed to sustain the shield (according to their empirico-theoretical studies).
And since the characteristic of an Yogic Flyer is one whose “thinking is without content”, I presume any 235 bloggers would suffice.
While 265 may suffice to keep the small state of Israel impregnable to attacks, there is no way this method would work for India. And yet India is so much like Israel, surrounded by hostile neighbours and engaged in fighting a proxy war with Pakistan, a nation that keeps on pushing in agents of terror into India and then acting innocent.
Well there is a solution for Pakistan too and it is so horrific that it will make even the most hawkish among us cringe. And it has been revealed by a mole in the upper echelons of the government through a posting on rediff message boards (link courtesy: Shankar Seal) when rediff asked readers how India should react to Pakistan-sponsored terrorism, post Mumbai blasts.
The suggested solution is based on obtaining lasting peace by total annihilation of the enemy without any casualties being sustained.
The only thing 2teach pakistan lesson is not war,nuthing.It reminds me one of leader saying long years back.if u strt war,they wil retaliate,again many innocent ppl will loose life.so the best thing is let millions of indian ppl gather at indo-pak border wher the jhelum river flows.
As the only source of water 2 pak, all of us including small children,men,women start urinating in river.do this act for month or so.how many times will they purify the water?the result is not a single Indian dies bcz no war.
And in Pakistan,the ppl will die of thirst.whn we have food,v do require water 2drink. What if we make them die of thirst??let they realize wht it happns whn they use 2kill innocent ppl.If u can kill us this way,we know other alternatives.I know im talking sumthing weird, but think the other way.If war happens,our brave soldiers,innocent ppl like us only will die and our economy will affect.No use going 4war.For eg,a human urinates 2or 3times max.if continued for a month=2*30=60/month/person.calculate wit million ppl.I CAN C END OF PAKISTAN.
Stinkingly pure, evil genius. Takes my breath away.
As we can see, so many solutions available to conclusively end conflicts and yet the Neanderthals keep on fighting wars “the old way”.
When will they ever learn?
The Greatbong Blog & Podcast 
Oh my God. Someone has to be extraordinarily brilliant or unprecedentally stupid to have come up with THAT solution. I am inclined to the belive the former, since I cannot imagine otherwise.
Arnab, those are bizarre, even more so because they are real, not made up. By the way, I very strongly object to your equating the India-Pakistan situation with that of Israel-Lebanon. I’ve seen this in other blogs as well, and I know you to be more perceptive than to make such a comparison.
I condemn any acts of terrorism indulged by the Hezbollah in the strongest of terms. However, you cannot wish away the fact that Israel occupied parts of Lebanon for years, only withdrawing fully in 2000. Even after the withdrawal there is the matter of hundreds of Lebanese prisoners languishing in Israeli prisons, which Israel has repeatedly refused to address.
There had been no major terrorist action by the Hezbollah against Israel in the past few years after the Israeli withdrawal, save the kidnapping of the two Israeli soldiers, to which Israel responded by pounding Lebanon, destroying its painstakingly built infrastructure and after initially targetting only Muslim, Hezbollah supporting neighbourhoods, they started bombing indiscriminately everywhere in Lebanon. Interestingly, Israel started this attack after the Syrian army withdrew, in a move that seems fairly calculated.
How is that in any way similar to the India-Pakistan situation? Lebanon is no Pakistan, it is an unfortunate country that has been used like a chessboard by its neighbours, Syria and Israel for their own naked geopolitical ambition.
At least let us not rob the Lebanese of our sympathies, given that the American media has pretty much cast its lot with Israel, in some of the most blatant pro-Israel coverage I’ve ever seen.
Somewhere down that list, a guy mentions that if China got an inkling of ‘our’ strategy then they might be tempted to do the same to the Brahmaputra and they have 1.3 billion ‘urinators’ 🙂
That’s a good one, ever. 🙂
@Thalassa
Yes I agree. We can not equate situation in India with that in Israel. India never invaded any country despite being a powerful nation.
Check this out, I’m still quivering with anger:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5221782.stm
If this is not America’s proxy war in Lebanon, I don’t know what it is.
And Right, you misread my point. I said Pakistan and Lebanon cannot be equated, and I stand by my statement.
OMG, the bestest solutions ever ? ROFTL. I have one suggestion, Why not start establishing Desai Cola plants in Kashmir. 😉
And Thalassa – Hezbollah and Lebanan aren’t the same. Did Arnab even mention Lebanon in this blog ?
@Ashish: Me too. Cant imagine otherwise.
@Thalassa: I am sure you will have noticed that this post was not a serious one—the parallels between Israel and India were mentioned simply because it gave me a context for threading in these 3 “bizarre” stories. However there are deeper issues at stake and I have desisted from making a “serious” post on this topic simply because I dont know enough of the complex history of the conflict.
The comparison between India and Israel was however made because they are both under the thumb of Islamic fundamentalism and because both of them are surrounded by neighbours who overtly and covertly help each other (some out of genuine loathing and some because of weak governments). There are many points on which the comparison would break and again this post was NOT about the similarities between the two.
As to Lebanon. If its territory is being used by Hezbollah then it has to take the responsibility—it cant put its hands up and say “its being used”. Right?
As Sanjay has pointed out, I never equated Pakistan with Lebanon….maybe Pakistan with Syria would be apposite. Lebanon, if I had to make a comparison, would be Nepal which is again “being used” (remember where the hijackers boarded the plane?)
I totally agree that the coverage of the conflict in US has been biased esp on Fox News (what’s new) but I personally lose sympathy for an organization (no matter how genuine its grievances) once it engages in acts of terrorism.
@Patrix: World War III would start and boy would it be a stinking mess.
@Chandra: Thanks..
@Right: Well if you ask a Pakistani/Bangladeshi he will tell you that India invaded Kashmir. It’s all perception.
@Sanjay: Indeed. If there are two things that will curse mankind for ever it’s war and stupidity. And one causing the other.
hahaha.. ROTFL…. and with China, don’t we have the yellow river already 🙂
I would be very interested to know your views on what Hezbollah had done after the Israeli withdrawal in 2000 to merit such a brutal response from the Israelis. Besides the kidnapping of the two soldiers, that is. If you can prove that there has been consistent unprovoked acts of terrorism by the Hezbollah from 2000 to the present, then I would accept your argument.
You may not have sympathy for Hezbollah. Neither do I. However, may I urge you to have at least some consideration for the innocent Lebanese civilians who have been indiscriminately targetted by the Israeli Army. Surely the Lebanese children who make up 1/3rd of the victims deserve your sympathy? Or are they Hezbollah operatives as well?
@sach1tb: Brilliant !
@Thalassa:
Firstly please do not consider me to be a spokesperson of Israel. Secondly, let me point out a small factual error. Its *just* not the kidnapping of 2 soldiers. Its also the killing of 3 other soldiers (according to CNN: ) or 8 other soldiers (according to Israeli outlets).
Now some nations interpret killing of its soldiers an “act of war”. Not India of course—-a BSF man is dragged into Bangladesh and tortured to death because he tried to stop the smuggling of cough syrup and our government reacts with its standard bromides of “strong condemnation”.
But Israel we know is a different kettle of fish and some may say that killing a country’s soldiers is the very definition of the way “war” is declared.
I also fail to see why Hezbullah has to have had a series of “unprovoked acts of terrorism” to justify Israel’s retaliatory violence—-even one act of “unprovoked aggression” is enough to warrant a response. This attitude of “show me a record of transgressions” is again a product of our Indian mindsets where we tend to consider the death of a soldier or two as mere trifles–an occupational hazard in fact. Israelites however tend to think of it more on “symbolic” terms—if you have killed one of our soldiers, you have killed one too many.
Whose approach is “correct”? I do not know.
Also a fact to remember: Hezbollah is backed by a government whose prime minister has officially stated his desire to “wipe Israel off the map”. So anyone with a bit of common sense can see where ultimately Hezbollah wants to go with this “kidnapping”.
In conclusion, I have consideration for innocent Lebanese civilians and children (where did you find evidence that I did not). Just like I have consideration for innocent Jewish children who are being pummelled by Katyusha rockets. Just like I have consideration for Kashmiri children being killed in violence engaged in by BOTH Islamic terrorists and Indian forces (though one of the parties started it and the other is reacting to it–hence the relative attribution of culpability may be a bit subtle).
Just like I have consideration for the children whose parents didnt come home on 7/11. And 5/11. And 9/11.
In conclusion, kindly do not try to imply that I am in any way cheerleading the death of innocents.
It’s the least I can expect from a perceptive commenter.
Aaah very predictable. Here you make a post which has very little to do with the Arab-Israeli conflict and more to do with human stupidity and yet within a few comments, you are already defending your secular/impartial credentials in front of a “Don’t you feel for the children” kind of attack.
Repeating your last line (in a different context though):
When will they ever learn?
Thalassa,
Get a grip…You want “informed” commentary, than go to any anti-Semitic, apologist-for-Islamic-violence, peace-at-all-costs publication. The humor credentials, and indeed the raison d’etre of this blog, are pretty well-estabalished. And no, GB never did make light of deaths of the innocent…Perhaps you should “quiver” less, and try and read more carefully.
And just to answer your question of what Hezbollah was doing since 2000: this.
K, your ad hominem attack is not appreciated, but I’m too civil to react.
Arnab, thanks for clarifying. So let us assume 3 soldiers were killed. Fine, Israel has the right to retaliate. It could have done what it did a few years ago, when Israeli jets flew to Iraq and destroyed a few key weapons installations. The Israeli government and Army knows exactly where Hezbollah’s hideouts are, they know all about Nassrallah’s movements. They can easily do targetted bombing, or incursions into Lebanon and get them out.
Instead, it spent the first few days bombing Lebanese infrastructure (the Beirut airport, highways, power plants). It moves from bombing the Muslim neighbourhoods to indiscriminately bombing other civilian areas, including Christian neighbourhoods. More than one incident of attacking convoys of people who are fleeing their villages takes place.
In this era of smart bombs and targetted missiles, why all this “collateral” damage? And if Israel had indeed been planning this for a year, as the SF gate article K linked indicates, then this is really not a response to the kidnappings, right? That merely provided an excuse to attack.
For many Indians, this seems to be merely a matter of “Jewish Israel” vs. “Muslim Lebanon”. I wonder if they realize that there are many Christian Lebanese who make up nearly half the population, who are equally devastated at this attack on their homeland. There really are no parallels between India-Pakistan and Israel-Lebanon.
Arnab, I appreciate and like your blog immensely. But it seems I’m developing quite a history of getting into futile arguments here. Just wanted to clarify that I have absolutely no intentions to attack you personally. But I think I’ll desist in future from commenting here.
@Rohan: Aah well.
@K: Interesting link.
@Thalassa: Did you consider the fact that Israel could have been planning an attack for an year now simply as a reaction to the military build up along the Lebanese border (Assumption: when there is a military buildup by the enemy, it means that it intends to attack—when of course is the question)?
Now as to Israel demolishing Lebanese infrastructure. According to the Israeli POV, (and I suppose for the sake of balance one should talk about both), the Hezbollah are entrenched inside certain areas (civilian areas to be more precise) and in order for the Israelis to create a “safe-zone” they need to flush these elements out. As we all know that terrorists are the first to use civilians as shields. (Look at this article in the liberal NY times (or the most liberal American news outlet) where they refer to a bombed out Lebanese town as a Hezbollah Town:
Yes Thalassa, it is Hezbollah infrastructure that is being targeted. And if Lebanese towns allow Hezbollah to set up things like banks with the result that Lebanese and Hezbollah infrastructure are indistinguishable (and sometimes one and the same), then yes washing hands off their involvement with the Hezbollah sounds a little hollow don’t you think?
I stand by why I drew the comparison between Israel and India—and to what extent the similarity holds.
Now comes the last part. I do not think I have personally attacked you (not that you say it). In this context, I find your decision to “desist from commenting” here puzzling. Of course, its your decision and I am sorry you feel this way. But if this is a reaction to me disagreeing with you, then it is indeed sad that you cannot “accept” any contrary opinion.
Let me turn this around. If on the basis of the discussion we had, I had written:
How do you think you would react? Would I be not accused of being “sensitive to criticism” and tolerating only opinions I liked?
As to any argument with me being futile, how do you define “futile”? Am I supposed to change my opinion based on your arguments in order to keep you commenting here? Why doesnt the opposite hold true (Incidentally, I do not expect to convince you—only defend my opinions)? I would presume that the purpose of blogs is to provide a forum for contrary opinion—now how futile such an activity is is of course a matter of debate.
In conclusion, its sad to see you leave. But I am disappointed that the mere act of me defending my POV is enough for you to take such a decision.
Thalassa, IMO its a matter o right vs. wrong (and you wont get bigger Muslim supporter than me, atleast not here) . Lebabon govt. knows that Hezbollah is there in their territory yet it allows them to carry their terrorist activities against the state of Israel. Also does Hezbollah know that there are Muslims who live in Israel infact close to 25% Isralies ar non-jews ?
@Sanjay: Hmm.
So I am against Muslims? Or did you mean Muslim extremism (which I am—I am against all extermism).
Incidentally, I do agree with what you said.
Thalassa,
Mea Culpa.
I just get very riled up when:
1) People think humor should be surrogate to whatever is the main concern that they might have/feel on any issue, or at any time (this does not mean that the person having a sense of humor is devoid of all other humanatarian concerns) &
2) Excuses are proferred for terrorism, or it’s Middle-East equivalent (causes like the “Palestinian situation”, expression of self-determination through the only means available, etc, etc.) and then the right to self-defend is taken to extreme task, be it by Israel or anybody else.
The loss of innocents, on both sides, is tragic and heart-breakingly sad. But Hezbollah has followed a policy of having its bases in areas populated by civilians, and using the civilian population to not only act as a shield, but also do their work. Israel, after the capture of its 2 soldiers, also gave ample warning, as could be given, for civilians to get out of southern Lebanon.
Imagine an armed, organized force, with genocidal intentions against India, holed up in, say, Bangladesh lobbing rockets into Calcutta, and killing innocents. I guess the point is second guessing should not, and cannot, be a reasonable basis for determining military action on the ground, when situations like this arise.
The question is not ‘When will they learn’, but ‘When will they grow up?’. The old cliche ‘An Eye for an eye, will leave us both blind’ holds true.
Saw on BBC yesterday that :
‘Al-Qaeda won’t take things lying down’ – More terror to follow.
‘Israel says that because international community has not strongly condemned their attacks on Lebanon, they take it as a go-ahead’. – A Real WTF..
Yeah, they need a little growing up.
Some bloggers just have this itch to pick up fights where none are being offered.. Its almost as funny as this post.
the world seemed so bleak today. but u do know how to makke smiles.
Arnab,
How do you ever get to all these articles? And I demand to know, why on earth does not RSS and the family get to find these? Even they qualify for the transdental meditators group by the present defination – whose “thinking is without contentâ€. And in place of urinating on India-in-general, they could be again creative. Visualize, groups of Kar-sevaks (like in Babri Masjid) arriving at Jhelum. They also can talk-in some Rakhi Sawant types from Bollywood into doing a “Cicciolina”.
Thanks for the Blog. Its is stinkingly and spiritually sexy.
Part of the stupidty is on rediff’s part giving voice to a bunch of jokers. What were they expecting a classical treatment of geopolitics with a dash of partiotic idealism tempered with a pragmatic disposition. Democracy is not what its cracked up to be.
I’m not sure whether it is heartening to see idiots standing on the other end of the isle too, but its definetly funny.
But the joke doesnt just end there. As patrix points out there is another idiot who is warning us that china might give us a taste of our own medicine(or should i say their urine). One thing is for sure chinese (by)products have always been costeffective and will definetly flood(more literaly than otheerwise) the market, but we can always count on Honourable Mr Moraji to bail us out.
On a more serious note Israel does what it does for two reasons.
One America gives them a free reign and they dont have to worry about vote banks.And of course tey are surrounded by a bunch of loonies.
In short they are strong an powerful, sure of victory, their people dont really mind(at least most of them) and they have ample provocations. Just do the math.
GB, I agree with you in the use of humour to deal with depressing topics like these – if you tackle this issue seriously, you’ll be convicted of being on a soapbox.
Anyway, it’s a war between Jewish hardliners and Islamist hardliners – and all we can do is to mourn the innocent dead on both sides. Which is a pity, because if the we could marry Israeli technology with Arab oil, then the world as a whole would benefit.
Retaliation against a terror attack, smart bombs to selectively target the enemy, not being a soft state like India – Your pro-action commentators can safely advocate this from the safety of a comfortable room which is not in the line of fire. If they were soldiers in action or civilians whose house was being shelled, I do not think you’d get such a strong conviction. As for smart bombs, as the Americans have found out, they are not as accurate as we imagine, nor can they work in a case where there is a strong civilian backing of the overt terrorist movement.
BTW, In case you feel I’m supporting the terrorists, I’m not. I’m just pointing out that if it were so easy to root out terrorists, it would have happenned long ago.
Had heard somewhere that during our fight for independence, one of the “inspiring thoughts” going around was that even if 33crore indians (the population then) spit, it would be enuf to drown england!!
Good article, GB!
There is also a theory on the Indo-Pak situation that the conflict is not for Kashmiri ppl/PoK per se, but for the water catchment area that it is. If India builds some 10-12 dams in Ladakh and higher ups, Pak will be on its knees.
Little wonder Mush doesnt like Baglihar!
The last solution led to just one thot in my mind…..”INSPIRED” by John Lennon (btw NOT the version which had our own Shaan singing it too)
“Give Piss A Chance” 🙂
If there is a nuclear war between India and Pakistan.
The Pakistan army decides to launch a nuke-missile towards India. They don’t need any permission from their government, and promptly order the countdowns.
Indian technology is highly advanced.
In less than 8 seconds, Indian army detects the Pak Countdown and decides to launch a missile in retribution. But they need permission from the Government of India.
They submit their request to the Defence Minister. The Defence Minister forwards it to the Cabinet. The Prime Minister calls an emergency Lok Sabha session.
The LS meets, but due to several walkouts and severe protests by the opposition, it gets adjourned and adjourned indefinitely.
The President asks for a quick decision.
In the mean time, the Pak missile failed to take off due to technical failure. Their attempts for a relaunch are still on.
Just then the Indian ruling party is reduced to a minority because a party that was giving outside support withdraws it.
The President asks the PM to prove his majority within a week.
As the ruling party fails to win the confidence vote, a caretaker government is installed.
The caretaker PM decides to permit the armed forces to launch a nuclear missile. But the Election Commission says that a caretaker government can not take such a decision because elections are at hand. A Public Interest Litigation is filed in the Supreme Court alleging misuse of power by the Election Commission.
The Supreme Court comes to the rescue of the PM, and says the acting PM is authorized to take this decision in view of the emergency facing the nation.
Just then one of the Pak missiles successfully took off, but it fell 367 miles away from the target, on its own government building at 11.00 AM. Fortunately there were no casualties as no employee had reached the office that early. In any case, the nuclear core of the missile had detached somewhere in flight. The Pakistan army is now trying to get better technologies from China and USA.
The Indian Government, taking no chances, decides to launch a nuclear missile of its own, after convening an all-party meeting.
This time all the parties agree.
Its three months since the army had sought permission. But as preparations begin, “pro-humanity”, “anti-nuclear” activists come out against the Government’s decision. Human chains are formed and Rasta rokos organised.
In California and Washington endless e-mails are sent to Indians condemning the government and mentioning “Please forward it to as many Indians as possible”.
On the Pakistan side, the missiles kept malfunctioning. Some missiles deviate from target due to technical failures or high-speed wind blowing over Rajasthan. Many of them land in the Indian Ocean killing some fishes.
A missile (smuggled from USA) is pressed into service. Since the Pakistan army is unable to understand its software, it hits its original destination: Russia.
Russia successfully intercepts the missile and in retaliation launches a nuclear missile towards Islamabad. The missile hits the target and creates havoc.
Pakistan cries for help. India expresses deep regrets for what has happened and sends in a million dollars worth of Parle-G biscuits.
Thus India never gets to launch the missile. Pakistan never gets it right.
And we live happily ever after.
Jai Hind
arnab, sorry but this is completely unrelated to your post. you have been tagged.
@Anirban: You should start a blog of your own: “Wishful Thoughts of a Demented Mind” in honour of GB. Nice story though…
Forget pakis dyin of thirst, I can actually visualise Pak flooded – 1,096,287,694 Indians * 3 times each * 30 days!!
Happy.
Kuldeep uncle and Mahesh Bhatt uncle are so good. They light candles at the wagah border. I think we should send them to Israel-lebnon border to light candle.
Thalassa,
“For many Indians, this seems to be merely a matter of “Jewish Israel†vs. “Muslim Lebanonâ€. I wonder if they realize that there are many Christian Lebanese who make up nearly half the population, who are equally devastated at this attack on their homeland. There really are no parallels between India-Pakistan and Israel-Lebanon.”
You mean to say Lebanon is not like pakistan, because there are many christians there? Or is it like, lebanon bombing is bad, because christians are living there? A life is a life, irrespective of which religion the person belongs to!
I dont understand how someone can get worked up at this great post. Strange!
Awesome stories those, GB!
However, since the discussion has since moved on to more sombre territory – how can I not add my bit to it :
In this specific mideast ‘contest’ , its pretty shallow to defend anyone really. All you can do is pity the poor Lebanese, and get the UN in there with a large bluecap force. Israel, being the more ‘organized’ force (as opposed to an semi-legitimate ‘outfit’) has to display greater responsibility.
* Hezbollah are the only real army in Lebanon, and despite a Parliament getting formed and the process having started there – they’re not really in control yet. Hezbollah were the freedom fighters (they came about to rid the country of Israeli/US forces occupying them), and did not quite get into ‘globalized’ terror for the sake of it to start with. Their role in getting Lebanon rid of ocupiers did elevate their status in the local population and they also run a parallel govt in large areas – including hospitals etc. Its a tricky situation to disarm them – the first step of getting them involved in the political process had already started.
* Post occupier-riddance – they took on ‘defence’ of the nation and well, they are hardly a formal army under civilian control and their form of ‘defence’ was preposterouly irresponsible and provoking, given the tensions in the region. There IS surely a need to disband an independent ‘militia’ and strengthen the Lebanese parliament/army instead.
* The naxals control 30% of India. Even allowing for Outlook’s sensationalism, it must be a large enough territory their writ runs in – and they operate armies and the like. Say, they fired some rockets at the burmese or chinese (unlikely since they get a lot of support from there but this is hypothetical). Would that justify the Chinese invading us saying, ‘well u cannot wash your hands off your responsibity to disarm them so …’ ?
In a sense, the LTTE did do precisley that, and the poor Lankans merely protested. Were they big enough, would you be ok from an invasion from the south ?
* To choke off armies, highways etc are perfect targets, nothing wrong there. The Beirut International airport is not. The only source of power for all of Gaza is not. Civlian vehicles trying to cross bridges to get away from the area as directed by Israeli leaflets is certainly not.
* The Hezbollah has no fighter planes etc. If you led it, would you really offer your tropps in clearly demarcated and identifiable areas as target practice for the IAF ? BTW, the IDF ‘grew up’ in Kibbutzes (which were civilian ‘co-operative farming communities’ ) to start with. Bangalore’s cantonment and army camps are in the midst of thickly populated areas. Israel has defence factories in Haifa, and the Hezbollah has dangerously inaccurate Katyushas.
* India, China and Pak exchange artillery and small arms fire at the border all the time – often – as the soldiers who caution you from getting too close to the borders in Ladakh tell you – to ‘keep each other awake’. Should we launch a full scale offensive the next time a shell explodes inside our territory, and to start off attack largely civilian airports, suburbs of large cities ?
* In madness like this, pinning ‘greater culpability’ is very insulting to the victims. Not similar to Nasrallah anointing the 2 arab kids his rockets killed in Israel ‘martyrs’ – the insensitivity in his ‘explanation’ was infuriating. Those kids did not ask you to fight this war, and certainly did not ask to be martyred, bozo!
Anyhow, look forward to more such posts and fewer such depressing comments (including mine). No point making this yet-another-socio-political forum – tons abound.
However, you cannot wish away the fact that Israel occupied parts of Lebanon for years, only withdrawing fully in 2000.
===========
@Thalassa, And pray tell me, why did Israel do so. Give it a little thought.
I suppose they hated the Muslims etc etc. Or probably Israelis themselves are firing rockets on Haifa, so that they can make the muslims look bad. (Like Hindus themselves blew up those bombs in the trains in Mumbai).
>> How is that in any way similar to the India-Pakistan situation? Lebanon is no Pakistan
Lebanon hosts Hezbollah terrorists, like Pakkis host their alQaeda and Lashkar terrorists. Heck, Hezbollah has members in Lebanon Parliament. Now what say you. Watch CNN or better still, BBC (pssst.. they are secular, you can trust them). See how Lebanon people support Hezbollah.
>>If this is not America’s proxy war in Lebanon, I don’t know what it is.
Did you know that Lebanon has hardly any oil. America wont venture where they dont see profit.
>>>I would be very interested to know your views on what Hezbollah had done after the Israeli withdrawal in 2000 to merit such a brutal response from the Israelis.
Almost everyday we read news of terror attacks on Israel. Next, please dont ask what Pakkis have done to merit brutal response from India, in case of war.
>>The Israeli government and Army knows exactly where Hezbollah’s hideouts are
You are so sure.. Ok, mossad has its limits, its not God.
>>including Christian neighbourhoods.
No, no such news of bombing Christian neighbourhoods. Israel is not stupid. They wont do that, else the western world, neutral till now, will turn against Israel. BTW, Christians in Lebanon have been persecuted by the Muslims there since ages anyway, right from the days of the Crusades. I suppose Lebanon and Israel were the lands where the Crusaders established their kingdom.
why this collateral damage, you ask ? Why dont you ask Hezbollah that. Why are they firing at civilians. Ohh their rockets arent smart enough I guess 😀 , they zigzag their way away from the target and find civilian homes. If countries think like Gandhi, they will cease to exist.
They also can talk-in some Rakhi Sawant types from Bollywood into doing a “Cicciolinaâ€.
=========
Well, thats nice 🙂 It might work actually. Muslims are much more into killing and raping “idol-worshippers” than Westerners. Funny that just the fact that we worship idols is reason enough for them to kill us. Remember Taliban destroying Buddha statues, and the trouble brewing in Thailand. I tell ya, Thailand’s Muslim population has expanded quite a lot and it might turn out to be the next terror destination.
>>>Say, they fired some rockets at the burmese or chinese (unlikely since they get a lot of support from there but this is hypothetical). Would that justify the Chinese invading us saying
Yes, if we are the ones supporting the Naxals, arming them, etc. But we too are fighting against them, and what you say
Just reminds me, for all that bad blood spilt on the Buddha Bar post, no body realizes that Chhatisgarh tribals are being massacred by the Naxals, and they say Leftists are for equality and freedom. Heh!! And the galls to accuse us not-the-other-india residents for their plight.
Cant believe such a satire turns in to such a political issue 🙂 Great post, GB. Great take on the current situation.
Whatever, the reason I cant resist but to support Israel on this subject. They have to defend themselves and their civilians come whatever it might be. When we (political leaders as well as us citizens) dosnt value couple of its life going away – how can we be called a great nation? Dosnt every nation in this world except India does that?
Arnab – I didn’t say you were against Muslims, It’s just that I like muslims(not the extremist kind though) a little more. 😉
Sensitive topic handled in a sensible way!
Hot Sambar Kills Boy (http://telegraphindia.com/1060728/asp/nation/story_6535467.asp)
I guess it is time to ban sambar from every home in India. We do not want innocent persons getting killed.
ROFL.
I want to be a Yogic Flyer. It sounds super cool idea to me :D.
I also think using jhelum to cause Jelaab is a good idea hehehehehehe!
Jeez!
S
@K: Its these “excuses for terrorism” that get me riled up sometimes.
@Aravind: Yes that one-eyed monster from Al Qaeda has spoken up in another home video announcing that his plans for the establishment of an Islamic Caliphate is well under way.
@Sudeep: Mm. Do you mean me? 🙂
@thank u o smile maker: As long as people continue to be stupid, I guess we will be able to keep on smiling.
@SM: Spiritually sexy ! Now that’s a sexy descriptor. Well the 2nd two stories were sent in one two friends: Saumyadipta and Shankar. The first one just happened to catch my eye.
@//slash\: Well not Rediff’s fault that a few of their readers are jokers. I used to mirror a few posts from this blog onto Indiatimes under the agreement that I would be linked from the front page. The comments I got, numerous and varied (upto 800) were mostly monuments to idiocy and blind hatred…kind of like this genius.
@Sayon: I agree that the concomitant of being a “hard state” is losing lives and as long as we are not the ones dying, its easy to say “Lets retaliate even harder”. However there is the question of balance—and while Israel represents one extreme end of the spectrum, India does represent the other extreme. While I dont expect India to send in rockets to Pakistan after 7/11, I would think that cross-border hugging ceremonies and “people-to-people” interaction should take the backseat for the time being.
@Sunshine: Interesting.
@Gourav: 🙂
@Anirban: Beautifull….
@Bidisha: Shall do.
@Anon: Smellicide…
@An Ideal Boy: Forgot to mention terrorism-supporter Mahesh Bhatt (check out the execrable “Gangster”—a post on this will be there in the future).
@Sameer:
Actually yes. If 30% of India has Naxal infrastructure—i.e. banks, hospitals, schools being run by Naxals, then yes if China was attacked by Naxals then I would justify China coming in and knocking off the Naxal infrastructure. If the Indian government had become so impotent (and so supportive of Naxals) that they allowed them to construct infrastructure and move rocket launchers around under their noses, then yes again.
@Ritesh: Maybe its because “satire” really presses people’s buttons…
@Sanjay: mm
@Fullstop: Thank you
@Rajeev: Poor kids.
@Suyog: It is indeed very cool to have that on your resume. Incidentally, Emran Hashmi would suffer from severe identity crisis if everyone in India adopted the sobriquet “Serial Pisser”.
Hahaha … that was one of the funniest messages ever posted on a website… thanks to rediff for not blocking that guy :-)))
His spellings and his english added to the flavour!!!
You made my day 🙂
Great I ask you about a post about the middle east and we come up with middle aged Hungarian porno chicks peeing all over Pakistan.
Great Post! Humor works in times of crisis. I think the support for Hizbullah in Lebanon is more because they dont have anyone else to support. From NPR station I listened that Hizbullah was a dying unit with a political minority in Lebanon. But after the capture of the soldiers (and killing) it has shot to fame /infamy. Israel retaliated with its attacks and Hizbullah took charge of the situation. The civilians saw Hizbullah taking charge of the situation and hence they supported them. A parallel for me might be us supporting the Indian team even though we knew that our bowlers were tampering coz we have no one else to support(not ethically right but emotions give in). Its simple human psychology. NPR also said that Isreal wanted a reason to destroy the military setup of Hizbullah that they had gathered over the years and that also was a part of going into the war.
I am almost neutral on this issue. I agree with Israel’s hard line approach but also feel bad for the casualities in Lebanon which greatly outnumber those in Israel.
Israel attacked Lebanon because lebanon is a muslim state. Islam khatare mein hain. We should wage a holy war against Israel. World media is internally supporting Israel’s crusade against Islam.We should wage a holy war against whole world. My islam is in danger. Boohoo Boohoo Boohoo!
@John Galt: Well, the casualty got greatly outnumbered in Lebanon because Israel have the defences to keep the casualty low. Also, they value each and every lives of Israelis so they take extra care in saving each soul.
I am surprised that there MORCHAS have not been taken by our commie brother in support of Lebanon and Hizbollah and condemning US and `Zionists` till date. Prolly, it might have come out…….
All read and digested !
It still surprises me how many Indians respect Israel for what they do (basically retaliate with bombs and end up killing civilians in the process) and want our own govt to declare war on Pak.
“An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind” – history has proven it time and again and yet we want to repeat the same mistakes all over again.
Lets just narrow our focus to the Mumbai bombings. People like Dawood, Tiger Memon committed terrorist acts. What do we need to do ? Get them.
India has been providing evidence to US and Pakistan for a long time that Dawood and Tiger are living in Pakistan and asking Pak to extradite them. Pak keeps on denying it. If they are, and if India has the evidence, then why not send undercover agents to snatch them from Pak and bring to trial in India ? (No, I am not reading too many fiction novels here). We have enough intelligence in our country to think about a way to do this, without going to war with Pakistan. Lets stop crying hoarse and act. Check out the benefits, if we achieve this :.
1. Irrefutable proof that Pak harbored these guys.
2. Send a msg to all current and future terrorists that India wont take things lying down.
I, for once, would look to Israel for inspiration. They did the same with Adolf Eichmann and other mass-jewish murderers.
@Kaunteya: :-). Such fun comes from message boards.
@Arunavo: I dont call myself demented for nothing.
@John Galt: I have no doubt that Israel was looking forward to this opportunity and Hezbollah comes and gives it to them. Though the paradox is that Hezbollah has won the PR victory and united the Shias and the Sunni terrorists in one fell swoop.
@Turtle: The situation is different from the Eichmann case because
1. Israel grabbed Eichmann from South America. They didnt catch him from Nazi Germany.
2. Eichmann was living as a common man with no security. Dawood has security provided to him by the Pakistani government. http://www.newsline.com.pk/NewsSept2001/coverstory1.htm
Even Pakistani newspapers accept that Dawood is in Karachi.
3. So lets say we catch Dawood and bring him to India? So? How do we prove he was in Pakistan? Pakistan will claim he was in India all along. Whatever proof India provides will be rejected by the US and I say this because India has already shown ironclad evidence of Pakistani involvement in terrorism on Indian soil to Washington and US has refused to put Pakistan on the list of terrorist states because Pakistan is needed to counter the Afghan menace.
GB, going by what you said:
* The UK should launch raids into the US, cause they harbour, and provide political support and fundraising for the IRA
* India should have attempted a few sorties over the UK for political asylum and “impotent inaction” against the militants of the Khalistan movement who eiher operated ot of their, raised money there or even recruited there.
* Have already mentioned SL in the LTTE context (whom we even helped arm and train!)
* Oh, and we must bomb the helpless Kabul govt (notice I do not say Afghanistan) for not reining the powerful warlords across Afghanistan, a lot of whom provide active support to the Taliban, and help recruit and train global terrorists too.
* How could one forget the Saudis, lets all bomb the hell out of them.
* Most of the London tube bombers were recruited, brainwashed and trained locally, so they are entitled to bombing large parts of their populations to take these guys out, I guess.
* Nepal is unable to control the Maoists, who supply and aid in many other ways our naxals who strike often and with deadly results, so Kathmandu is a legal target, I guess.
Sorry if that sounds repetitive, but you have to acknowledge the problem with that line of reasoning. The whole world would be making others pay for ‘less than perfect control’ over what they consider rogue elements. OR, the more powerful would actually go ahead and do it, and the weaker states would cringe, or find other means. Justifiable ?
You cannot justify senseless killing of civilian populations in whatever form whatever the provocation. This is collective punishment, the Nazis tried that and failed.
The same logic (not you, but the reasoning) almost justfies the 9/11 attacks – imagine the Al Qaeda guys thinking – attack the nerve centre of the US economy, causes nervousness, a market crash and probably recession – and chokes off the supply of funds raised for contributions and arms for Israel, Iraq.
I kow the argument is naive and flawed. So was the neocon’s when they expected Iraqis to greet the ‘liberators’ with flowers. All I’m pointing out is its plausible to imagine a thought process like that might have occurred, and the “punish those that are ineffective in the action they should have taken against those we’re really after” kind of logic rationalizes, if not justifies that thought process.
You cannot rationalize the wanton killing of civilians. Its like blowing up parts of a city cause you know criminals inhabit it – not ok as a strategy for the LAPD, not ok for Israel in Lebanon.
WW2 was between the imperialists and the fascists..
Cold War was between the capitalists and communists..
WW3 will be between the free world and the islamists (supported by leftists)…
WW3 began on 9-11. The conflict in Israel is just another chapter. Israel represents the free world. Just like India and the US.
What blasphemy !!!
The nerve to offer sexual gratification in the material world to these noble men !
Dont these infidels know that these great warriors have ‘risen’ above such worldly pleasures. Its only a spiritual orgy with 72 virgins in the afterlife for these cool dudes. I wonder how the almighty will cater to all these noble men, so many virgins to be supplied… Reminds me of what a Hollywood star of yesteryear ( I think it was Mae West ) once said – ” I have lost my virginity many times, to different men”
Good job GreatBong, you have again succeeded in triggering off heated arguments among the Argumentative Indians out there. 🙂
Sameer,
The key fallacy in your argument is that you are assuming that some governments have no control over such groups. The case is very opposite, some governments actually encourage such groups.
@confused.
Quite correct. Those are two different kinds. I daresay, the truth in Lebanon (and elsewhere, as in often the case) was not the (quite Bushlike, these days) black and white interpretation of the situation that ‘no control vs support’ makes it sound like.
In the current Lebanon context, at least, the earlier part of the year saw efforts by the Lebanese government to merge the Hezbollah militia with the army, or form a elite unit out of them – basically get them assimilated into the mainstream under constitutional control one way or the other. The militia was considered a force fighting for Lebanons freedom at one point, and it would have been dumb to fore the issue – especially since disarming them is way beyond the means of the govt there. They were starting to mainstream them before this whole mess gave the Hezbollah an independent definition and reason for existence again.
The LTTE was funded and armed out of India. The IRA found sanctuary and silent support in the US. The Indian govt has been trying but not been successful in stopping the naxals from running shadow governments – and they enjoy a support base too. In none of these cases was such a neandertheal approach of punishing/picking a fight with an entire nation used. The support base can be eroded through other means.
Go-bomb-them is a very simplistic ‘solution’ to problems with multiple issues. Israel has guaranteed another few decades of mistrust and many more people willing to fight against it – including endless numbers of fence sitting Lebanese. Populations do not take well to punishment meted out in the frustration of not being able to fight the real guys well.
The Al Qaeda kinda guys are bound to benefit from this – they have already ‘adopted’ what was essentially a regional issue into the fold of their larger war. The hamas had similarly shown signs of acting responsibly and giving up on their destructive berserk agenda once they were mainstreamed – into power and responsible for people in a real way. Of course, Bush and co could not take real democracy too well….so they MUST demonize the Hezbollah and pretty much all of Lebanon. Obviously half the country will be ready to fight Israel now, where the support was limited to a small region inside Lebanon earlier. Too easy to say ‘ah-they shoud’ve disarmed them’.
As for the pretext of the ‘kidnappings’, all parties in the region have done it enough times to gain bargaining power in the past to suddenly declare it an ‘escalation’ and declare war based on it.
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1154037038529
There’s a good reason for it all!
Great post as usual. Didn’t know that you believed in out of the box thinking what with the Urino therapy. Morarji Desai must be turning in his grave…. with delight. Great idea by the way.
Problem is that even Gandhi’s eys for an eye turns the whole world blind does not work all the time.
J.Krishnamurthy has some unique ideas of ending conflict but god alone knows when he will be followed on a massive scale.
As far as the issues with Pakistan are concerned India’s stand has always been too irritatingly tolerant – no matter who’s in power.
How many more decades will our leaders take to realize that the days of Gandhian tolerance are gone?
If our intelligence really has solid evidence of Pakistani involvement in acts of terrorism in India, then what is preventing us from teaching them a lesson?
There are millions of innocent people living in that country and they might suffer if we too take the Israel way – agreed. But for how long is this going to go on? How many more thousands of Indians are going to die?
Many might find his offensive but to me under some circumstances Israel’s policy of zero-tolerance makes sense to me. Let me elaborate.
I’m not much into politics and from a totally neutral viewpoint I hated Narendra Modi after the Godhra incident. But now, after some thinking, I can’t really fully blame him. He might have not taken his name to the good-books of many with the way he handled the whole situaction but at least unlike other Indian politicians he had been able to ensure that even though his state is right adjacent to Pakistan, nobody will dare do anything to it.
A massacre could be orchestraed and successfully executed in the heart of India’s commercial capital by Pakistani brains with internal support from some ‘Indians’. They can go on doing these in Kashmir, Mumbai and many other places but before doing anything in Gujarat, the Godhra incident will definitely det them thinking.
This is where lies the benefits of zero-tolerence, once and for all.
Now another question that might pop-up : What if they retaliate? … Well, the answer is simple. Why whould we leave them in a position from where they can retaliate? The evil must be destroyed and those who survive should not be left with the guts to fight back. Period.
@ Arnab : Another wonderful post. Great work !!!
As far as the issues with Pakistan are concerned India’s stand has always been too irritatingly tolerant – no matter who’s in power.
How many more decades will our leaders take to realize that the days of Gandhian tolerance are gone?
If our intelligence really has solid evidence of Pakistani involvement in acts of terrorism in India, then what is preventing us from teaching them a lesson?
There are millions of innocent people living in that country and they might suffer if we too take the Israel way – agreed. But for how long is this going to go on? How many more thousands of Indians are going to die?
Many might find his offensive but to me under some circumstances Israel’s policy of zero-tolerance makes sense. Let me elaborate.
I’m not much into politics and from a totally neutral viewpoint I hated Narendra Modi after the Godhra incident. But now, after some thinking, I can’t really fully blame him. He might have not taken his name to the good-books of many with the way he handled the whole situaction but at least unlike other Indian politicians he had been able to ensure that even though his state is right adjacent to Pakistan, nobody will dare do anything to it.
A massacre could be orchestraed and successfully executed in the heart of India’s commercial capital by Pakistani brains with internal support from some ‘Indians’. They can go on doing these in Kashmir, Mumbai and many other places but before doing anything in Gujarat, the Godhra incident will definitely set them thinking.
This is where lies the benefits of zero-tolerence, once and for all.
Now another question that might pop-up : What if they retaliate? … Well, the answer is simple. Why whould we leave them in a position from where they can retaliate? The evil must be destroyed and those who survive should not be left with the guts to fight back. Period.
@ Arnab : Another wonderful post. Great work !!!
ANIRBAN is so very right!
this ‘ pass on to as many Indians ‘ is part of the post rang de basanti trash.
even the urinating idea seems inspired so .so as to let the whole population make a difference
@GB
‘However there is the question of balance’
you’re so very right. All i know is that I’m glad that i don’t have to take a decision on where the point of balance is and can afford to argue about it in your blog.
it takes a certain firmness of character to send out young men to die in battle. to a general, it is the son of a comrade, it is a young man who he inducted, it is a bundle of enthusiasm and bravery. When the government has ordered the army out, the army has always fought and the young men have always died.
i cannot debate on the neccesity of ‘teaching Pakistan a lesson.’ far greater minds than you and i have and will continue to do so. But i will still pity the PM and the Defence minister if they cannot summon the guts to order the army to cross the border.
“While I dont expect India to send in rockets to Pakistan after 7/11, I would think that cross-border hugging ceremonies and “people-to-people†interaction should take the backseat for the time being.”
Yes, it seems futile, but maybe, just maybe, if we can get the common man in Pakistan to hate us a little less, there’ll be less cannon-fodder for the Pakistan army. Can we at least hope, that someday there will be a true desire for peace on both sides?
Remember, Martin Luther King had a dream in decades ago. The African-Americans are still fighting to live that dream. If we too do not dream, then the stark reality is a Malthusian extinction
Late Comment.
I see the same division left-and the rest here also. The leftists routinely support the palestinians withut even considering the situation. Firstly Hezbollah is not an organisation fighting for the Palestinians or Lebanese but rather is a puppet of Syria and Iran. They started this whole thing by kidnapping soldiers (and killing some in the process). Their purpose is just to gain brownie points in the Arab world. They fire rockets into Israel(targetting inocent people). Then they hide among the Lebanese people so as to mitigate losses. What can Israel do. When some one accepts a ceasefire and then violates it and hides among the people what can you do. Intelligence is not so perfect that you can pinpoint locations where people are holed up. What I am doing is not supporting the Israelis blatantly(killling of innocent people is not justified for any reason). But rather I feel that this time Hezbollah are more to blame than any one else.
The saddest part is that there is no visible end to this violence. What I am writing about is not a vindication of what Israel has done or is doing. But rather is about how they are probably thinking.
Israel will never stop its aggression. Because the day decide to do so the state of Israel will cease to exist. Just look at the situation in Kashmir. Peope who are not even remotely connected to Kashmir end up fighting there. What would happen if Israel adopted a non aggessive position like India. It would be torn apart in a few days. The Arabs will never accept the state of Israel. Of course some people will say that the existence of Israel itself is illegal. They may be right. But then what will you do with the Jews there. Without Israel they will be slaughtered. If you dont believe this see Pakistan or Bangladesh or Iran or Iraq. So they really have no choice.The Israelis have long since realised that thay cannot live in peace but thay will have have to live in a state of aggression forever. Whether this is the right thing or not I dont know.
”A massacre could be orchestraed and successfully executed in the heart of India’s commercial capital by Pakistani brains with internal support from some ‘Indians’. They can go on doing these in Kashmir, Mumbai and many other places but before doing anything in Gujarat, the Godhra incident will definitely det them thinking.
This is where lies the benefits of zero-tolerence, once and for all.”
I wont attempt a rebuttal here. Just one word.
Sick.
GB,
My apologies.
LOL! Another piece of hilarious journo trash from rediff.com. This article was meant to be a moving eulogy for Fallen Kargil hero Captain Anuj Nayyar. Instead it turns into a promo for JP Dutta’s Flop Movie “L.O.C”.
http://in.rediff.com//news/2004/jan/02diary.htm
Yes, this is supposed to be satire, and I’m a big fan, Arnab.
But when you say, in response to a post, “I personally lose sympathy for an organization (no matter how genuine its grievances) once it engages in acts of terrorism.”, the humor seems to evaporate.
By that standard Arnab, you should have very little sympathy for Israel at this point. But over decades they have turned whining about and perpetuating and exploiting the collective guilt around the world after a historic wrong into an art-form. So I really don’t blame you if you’ve been influenced.
Three countries consider Hezbollah to be a terrorist organization, the United States, Israel and Canada. Enough said.
I know you’re not an apologist for Israel, at least you’re trying very hard not to portray yourself as one, but after watching 34 children murdered in their sleep, it takes a strong heart to smile at the dark humor in your post.
My humble suggestion to simultaneously prevent rocket attacks on Israel occupied territories as well as to stop dispossession of poor Palestinians: reinstate Palestinians Arabs in the upper floors of all buildings in the occupied territories; Israelites live downstairs. In peace.
Om shalom!
Above solution – coutsey S. Pyne.
@Debolin:
What you are saying in effect is – to prevent Pakistan and antagonistic Indian Muslims from exploding bombs, let us kill a few of them in state sponsored pogroms in advance. This will act as a deterrent.
Bravo! You have taught many of us today the depths of depravity to which an otherwise (seemingly) educated Indian can reach because of communal allegiances.
Depraved, murderous, terrorist thinking, whether Hizbullah, or Palestinian, or Israeli is not that alien to us any more…Debolin is an example of that.
@ Confused and Shan:
Sticking to diplomacy and being politically correct , when thousands of innocent people are being killed in cold-blooded and well-planned terrorist attacks and that too on a regular basis in our country, is nothing but… well, I’m very sorry to say…HYPOCRICY.
Truth always tastes bitter.
Therefore, my dear Sirs, I find it utterly inhuman to talk about tolerance and all under these circumstances.
If this makes you think of me as a terrorist (as Shan has already stated above), I can’t help it. Is combating terrorism in the most stringent terms before it’s too late called terrorism as well?
And, Shan Sir, I never said “to prevent Pakistan and antagonistic Indian Muslims from exploding bombs, let us kill a few of them in state sponsored pogroms in advance. This will act as a deterrent”. This was your interpretation and unfortunately you got it totally wrong.
My point always was, is and will be teaching those bloody terrorists the lesson of their lives in their own terms and I hardly see any better solution to this problem. For example, when we know of the existence of Lashkar-e-Taiba, Jaish-e-Mohammed, SIMI these groups and what they are up to, how come they still exist after what they have done? They should have been annihilated long long back.
I neither encourage state-sponsored terrorism nor worship Modi but I’m all for supporting people who are ready to go any distance to make sure nobody dares to even look at their motherland.
If you have an alternative way to combat terrorism in a more effective yet peaceful manner which will not involve the risk of innocent people losing their lives but will demolish terrorism and terrorists, please enlighten us about that. I would be more than happy to know that. In fact, I would be ecstatic. Period.
Ohh..forgot to add this piece of information…
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/1833219.cms
@Debolin
There is no logic in your statements. We are all for combating terrorism. We just fail to get the Gujarat connection. Are you saying that the muslims killed in Gujarat were terrorists? Or that since all muslims are basically terrorists, killing them is some sort of pre-emptive action against future acts?
“If you have an alternative way to combat terrorism…”
Alternative to the Gujarat method? And then you say you “neither encourage state-sponsored terrorism nor worship Modi…”
Sorry we don’t buy your explanation. You have dug your hole too deep to try and wiggle out of it now.
Also, typical of your scatterbrained explanation is the TOI link. We all know Pak supports terrorists. It’s an open secret. But we still can’t interpret your ‘Gujarat based response’ in any other way than what I have said in my earlier comment. I’m afraid it’s clear you are communal, you are extremist, and you are irrational.
Finally, there is nothing hypocritical or “politically correct” about being a rational or a realist. I am aware of the dangers of Islamic terrorism. It’s just that I don’t think that genocides or nukes are the solution.
Maybe what you are looking for is war with Pakistan, as many of your type are doing. Maybe you feel that India will overrun Pak in a week or so and destroy all the terror camps at one go. If so then you are living in a fool’s paradise. We do have military advantage over Pak, but not to the extent that we can take them over anytime. Even US could not do that to Iraq with far greater military advantage.
In case of war, our casualties will be very high, and we might at best win a pyrrhic victory, and terrorism will never stop. And I am not even talking about the nukes that Pak has, and the relative instability of their government that will make them far more dangerous to us then ours will to them.
I think we should take a step back and review the India-Pakistan situation with objective eyes. Most would agree that Pakistan is outmatched in military might by India and they know it. This raises the question of why Pak is still brazenly irritating us, knowing fully well that on their own, they cannot hope to come out victorious in a full-scale war. The answer is probably that there is a shadow power holding the strings, knowing and expecting India to be sufficiently provoked to launch an all-out war against Pak, knowing that this would give them the passport to “intervene” and achieve their ends.
The people in the top echelons of our administration would know this all too well, and this is probably the reason why India cannot afford to launch full-scale military action against Pak.
Check this out, a well-written ( though a bit long-drawn at times ) book on the balance of power in South Asia.
Hi Greatbong,
Read all the comments above, people have already converted a humorous post to a discussion of who is right.. Israel or Hizbollah. well everyone to his own.
Am actually waiting with bated breath for your next post.
The re-election of Jagmohan Dalmiya (hopefully) :))
Wowwwwwwwwwwwwww. what a story… and i am waiting for your comments on the same. And what is Ganguly dear,doing? Getting in to politics. No, I am not riling you up or anything, since you are pretty emotional about the subject and should be. But standing from a neutral viewpoint, I feel Ganguly should have worked his way into top form, got himself in the team and cooked a snook at both Jumping Jack More and Groggy Chappal. But now by siding with people explicitly and trying to get in, he has lost his prestige that much more. This is not a new thing in Indian cricket. But sadly, never thought Ganguly would try such things.
Debolin,
I am all for taking action against Pakistan and I take a pretty hawkish position on terrorism my blog. But my position is against Pakistan, against people who promote terrorism in this country or who actually indugle in such attacks. I have many times advocated launching precision attacks on terrorist facilities in Pakistan.
But that does not mean I should justify Gujarat and massacre of innocent Muslims. Should I? What was your point, as Shan asked that all Muslims killed in Gujarat were terrorist? So should we attack all Muslims and Mumbai and kill them? Please go back to your comment and read again, this is what exactly you seem to imply.
best
You are really a demented mind Arnab, I used to think otherwise earlier. You did not have a single word against this mindless barbarity of israel, supported by american bullets. you must have a demented mind to come up with such crap while talking about a tragedy being unleashed unstopped, thanks to american veto. it is your tax money which is being used to kill those kids, who were sleeping, and you are happy, atleast untouched. you can sleep and come up with tasteless craps. if you are such a product than your dadu must have been a jali freedom fighter working as british spy in the cellualar jail. otherwise how come you are so untouched by this mindless brutality. i know you will delete this post, but i am happy you will at least read it before that.
Wonder why all the outrage is expressed by “Anon” and “Anonymous”.
To me, this is as much an expression of cowardice as any.
reply to: Wonder why all the outrage is expressed by “Anon†and “Anonymousâ€.
To me, this is as much an expression of cowardice as any.
What is the basic difference between “Anon” or Rajiv or Mohan or Alice or any damn name. Whatever you write, it is still Anon.
You can say that I even hated to leave my name here!
Anon,
Nice. But why stop at GB’s grandpa. Perhaps a remark or two about his parents too. No? I mean personal attacks are passe, the only thing which makes sense is to attack someone’s family because you don’t agree with him.
Brilliant! I bow to thy.
Confused, I am not you. I know what I am doing. Families come, as kids of compassionate parents don’t end up being so pervert with miseries. Period.
Anon,
Ah! And that is your take on the issue, is it necessary that we agree with it? And if we don’t, you are going to shower us with abuses?
Excellent!
@Sameer: Yes actually going by what I said, India is well within its rights to launch an attack on Pakistan. That it does not make sense politically and because of the losses we ourselves will sustain concers realpolitik rather than principles. Now as to the other countries you mentioned, if you think that the level of involvement of the Canadian government with Khalistani terrorists is the same as the involvement of the Lebanese govt with Hezbollah, the Taliban govt with Al Qaeda and the LET with Musharaff then I have to question that line of thinking. Remember: IRA is not sending rockets onto London from US soil….do you think that would ever happen?
@Raj: I dont think we have come to that stage. Well not yet. I hope not.
@Mohanvee: I wouldnt be surprised if Osama also said “I have lost my virginity many times, to different men‗it gets lonely in those caves. And Al-Zawahiri is an attractive man.
@Hiren: Indeed it doesnt.
@deBOLiN:
Leaving aside the justification of Gujrat riots in these sentences, I have to say that the reality is exactly the opposite. If anything Pakistan wants Muslims to be killed and if as you say, doing it in Gujrat will get many killed, that is even more the motivation to do terrorist activities in Gujrat. Pakistan survives on one fact: Muslims cannot live with Hindus. Each day that goes by with Hindus and Muslims living peacefully in India is a blot on the premise of Pakistan. It is this that Mushy baby wants to turn around.
BTW Akshardham was in Gujrat.
@Varsha: Yes the misguided pulp activism that movie set off.
@Sayon:
True. When we say “India should be like Israel” we know that it wont be us who will do the “attacking”. And no I do not think naive exercises as laddo distribution will help in any way to lessen the hatred. It just serves to symbolize that we as a country do not care about the memories of soldiers, many of whom tortured to death by the same hands that offer us sweets.
@TracerBullet: Many Leftists are apologists for Jihadis. In a way you gotta hand it to the Jihadists PR machine. They are the ones who strike first, create death and mayhem and then they are the ones who garner sympathy and the gentle “chuk chuks” of the “liberal” crowd.
@Anonymouse: Hilarious.
@Shubho:
No country considers Pakistan to be a state sponsor of terrorism. What does that prove?
Absolutely nothing.
@S. Pyne: Nobel Peace Prize for you.
@Mohanvee: Pakistan actually has nothing to lose in going to war with India. They are a failed country with a screwed up economy. India on the other hand has everything to lose—-foreign investments, IT power and economic security. As a result, Pakistan actually wants India to attack.
@Kannan: Ultimately who cares any more?
@Anon: The fact that you can call my grandfather a British spy (not that it matters: you can try to spit at the moon but the spit ends up landing on your face)
just goes to show what kind of hate your mind has. As Confused said: you forgot to insult my parents. Which you did the very next comment. Ah well.
Now here’s the final thing. I wont put up with you using my webspace to call my long-dead grandfather a British spy or call me a “pervert” or my parents “discompassionate”. You have crossed the line from disagreement to ABUSE. And that too targeted at my family.Kindly take your abuses to Jihadi sites where you will fit right in with your Israel hatred.
GreatBong says:
“No country considers Pakistan to be a state sponsor of terrorism. What does that prove?
Absolutely nothing.”
Absolutely agree.
But really, is it that difficult to realize that these massacres in Lebanon today have nothing to do with ‘terrorism’ or two captured soldiers (when on duty in uniform, soldiers are always ‘captured’ not ‘kidnapped’; civilians and politicians picked up in the middle of the night from Gaza and Southern Lebanon, blindfolded and taken away to Israeli prisons are ‘kidnapped’) and everything to do with vengence.
241 American soldiers in the ’83 Marine Barracks bombing and the ignominious and rather humiliating Israeli exit from Southern Lebanon in 2000…reason enough for revenge, wouldn’t you say?
And Israel and America won’t hesitate to designate the Banga Sahitya Parishad a terrorist organization if it came in the way of their global and regional ambitions…I kid you not.
Whatever it is, I don’t believe that Israel is fighting for the two soldiers that Hizbollah kidnapped. I think that Lebanon’s predicament is that even if they release the soldiers, Israel will kill their own men and put the blame on Hizbollah in order to continue the war.
I strongly believe that Israel should learn a few lessons from India on how to maintain peace with the countriesi n its neighbourhood.
Some of the things Israel can do is –
1. Implement a few confidence building measures (CBMS).
2. Start a few bus services.
3. Implement researvation in their armed forces for members of Hamsas, Fateh and Hezbollah.
4. Pass a resolution in Knesset that the conflict will be resolved only through peaceful means.
5. COnesquently hold numerous rounds of peaceful tatlks.
Rajeev,
Your post again attempts to do something that is very much in vogue these days…drawing a parallel between India’s situation and Israel. It is the easiest comparison to make, as is evident from the flood of posts on the topic in any forum.
Let us not attempt to glorify the international jihad factory of Pakistan by talking about them in the same breath as nationalistic movements like Hezbollah.
I’m sure you wouldn’t hesitate to take up the gun to fight an invader in your home. Well, our freedom fighters didn’t, and we venerate them today, or do we?
The United States and Israel consider Hezbollah a terrorist organization because they don’t stand in an open field with rifles pointed at the sky waiting for an F-16 to obliterate them. But that’s just the nature of propaganda. Demonise the enemy so much so that the very name is equated with disgust in the ‘civilized’ world.
India is not Israel and Pakistan is surely not Hezbollah.
So let us drop the insinuations.
Shubo,
LET, Hizb etc are all nationalistic movements. They are all fighting for Kashmir. Just like Hezbollah, Hamas etc want Israel to leave their occupied land. By the same logic, i can say with 400% certainty that LET, Hizb etc will stop harassing us if we handover Kashmir to Pakistan. Even Musharraf would be happy.
And if LET, Hizb etc start to harass us again, then let us give Pakistan the areas that fell in erstwhile Jungadh and Hyderabad.
Shubho,
My suggestions are all ‘out of the box’.
Rajeev,
If India was systematically opressing Kashmiris, if it had taken away their ancestral land and forced them into exile, if it had pushed them into overcrowded settlements contained within 20ft concrete walls, if it constantly shelled and raided refugee camps, if it blocked their roads and means of communication, if it cut off access to basic amenities like electricity and water, if it deprived these people of their humanity as a means of collective punishment, if it carried out regular targetted assassinations using helicopter gunships in crowded bylanes filled with children, if it, for all practical purposes, created an apartheid state in Kashmir, and most importantly, if it was an artificial state fostered on the local Kashmiri population by Western powers and settled with caucasian people from the other side of the world, then yes, I would consider Hizb and LeT to be nationalistic movements like Hezbollah, and I would consider India to be the same as Israel.
Again, the comparisons you draw are very easy to make, and just as superficial. Just because the Indian govt is sitting on its ass and bleating out meek statements after every Pak sponsored terror attack doesn’t give us the moral authority to cheer on and endorse a massacre of innocents taking place in another country.
And what has Israel got in return for six decades of implementing the ‘out of the box’ measures proposed in your post? Has it improved their security in any way after all these years? Has it not turned them into the very monster that forced them to create a nation for themselves?
I think you are missing the point here.
Condemning Israeli brutality in this war does not mean endorsing the Indian government’s apathy and inaction on Pak sponsored terrorism.
Shubho,
We are talking about freedom and freedom has different flavours. I am not cheering on the massacres.
About artificial states, read the history of Palestine, Lebanon, Israel, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, etc. They were all created artificially and every power at the time of the creation tried to have their say.
Do you remember what a certain Zia ul Haq did in Jordan for which he was honoured by the King of Jordan. Zia ul Haq suppressed an uprising by killing thousands of Palestinians.
I can also argue that partition of India was an artificial act. If you one country that was created based on religion totally unlike the other.
If you feel Israel is wrong then why are there no fights now between Egypt and Israel? or for that matter between Jordan and Israel. Do you hear of Egyptian militants firing rockets from the Sinai peninsula? And yes Egypt was sending fidayeens to Israel before the 1967 war.
And I am obliquely condemning Israel’s disproportionate actions. That is why my suggestions are out of the box. Israel has not implemented what I have said.
Missed the ‘out of the box’ thing…my mistake…
Yep, all artificial states, as you mentioned.
However there is a difference between drawing a land in the sand and separating people living there into two nations, and ‘carving out’ a nation where there was none, pushing the indigenous people out, and settling white europeans there. That’s about the best distinction I can make, and if you still can’t see the difference, well…
Zia-ul-haq? In Jordan? Killing Palestinians? Sorry, not aware of that. Maybe you could enlighten me offline…
Not really sure what that has to do with this issue though.
Egypt and Israel: There is a peace treaty between the two nations, signed in 1979. According to the treaty Egypt regained control over the Sinai Peninsula, which Israel had seized in the six-day war in 1967.
Israel does not hold Egyptian prisoners in its jails.
I don’t see any reason why Egyptian ‘militants’ (do you mean the Muslim Brotherhood?) should lob rockets into Israel, unless they want to empathize with the fate of the Palestinians.
In contrast, Israel holds many Lebanese prisoners (some of them well known extremists such as Samir Kuntar, others whom it labels as terrorists). Before this war started there have been documented raids by Israeli forces into Southern Lebanon to pick up ‘suspects’. I don’t see why Hezbollah can’t do the same. After all, one illegal act is as good as the other.
Shubho,
Here is one link on Zia ul Haq and Jordan –
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_September_in_Jordan#Events_of_September.2C_1970
BTW Mushrraf has done something similar within Pakistan. He supprssed a Shia uprising.
There is peace between Israel and Jordan/Egypt because of USA.
Rajeev,
I completely understand where you are coming from, and the sentiments behind your arguments.
In Rediff today, there is a very objective article by TVR Shenoy where he wonders whether Nepal can turn into a Lebanon for us, and he tries to justify the Israeli incursion into Lebanon. And he is right, as you are, in a number of ways.
What I find difficult to do is to applaud Israel for its policies, which, over decades, have brought nothing but misery and devastation to a large chunk of the human population in that part of the world. Arab Muslims and Arab Jews lived side by side for centuries, until the advent of Zionism. This conflict was not inherently religious in nature. Radical Islam and radical Zionism are rallying calls for the two sides.
And we in India, increasingly faced with the threat of radical Islam, automatically rush to bundle everything under one simple heading. This is a very American view of the world.
The fact that the ideology of Hezbollah/Hamas et all is very different, and even at loggerheards, from those of Osama’s children in Pakistan, the LeT and friends, is well known. But it’s easier to call everyone terrorists than to go into such details.
Explaining this to Americans/Israelis with their ‘kill em all, let god sort them out’ attitude is like to talking to a wall. Unfortunately, explaining it to most Indians has become just as difficult…
And after a while, most of us just throw up our hands and say…who cares, let the children die. It’s not our war after all…
@ Anirban :
Wonderful !!! 🙂
It is very noble of liberal minded Indians to show outrage at the death of some people in the middle east. Wish they felt the same way towards the 40 tribals in Chattisgarh who were massacred recently by leftist extremists or naxalites as a punishment for collaborating with the State against the ‘People’s Movement’.
Where do ‘Concerned Citizens’ and ‘Human Rights Activists’ disappear when innocent tribals are killed by the ‘revolutionaries’, or when hindu laborers are killed by ‘freedom fighters in Kashmir’ ? Why are they so silent when innocents in India are killed by naxalites or their freedom fighters ? Too busy condemning Israel to notice I suppose.
Raj,
It is fashionable to talk about international issues. If you look at the people in Palestine or Lebanon affected by the so called Israeli atrocities shown on the news they are pretty well off. Most of them can be found wearing designer stuff. COming back to India, how many people here can afford to live like the so called oppressed Palestinians? Very few. ANd still we have five star activists shedding tears on issues that affect others. I am sure most of these activists would be employing lowly paid maids in their homes to clean, cook and look after their children.
@Raj:
“It is very noble of liberal minded Indians to show outrage at the death of some people in the middle east. Wish they felt the same way towards the 40 tribals in Chattisgarh who were massacred recently by leftist extremists or naxalites as a punishment for collaborating with the State against the ‘People’s Movement’. ”
What makes you think they don’t? Do you think you have a monopoly on ‘feeling’ for Indians?
🙂 Hilarious
I wish any of this would work against Terrorism. But a brilliant post (looking at the world we stay in – the topic may never be outdated)