Man Has Created Death

276 Comments

Man has created death—- William Butler Yeats.

——————————————————————————-

I see secret violence under cover of darkness
Slaughtering the helpless,
I see the just weeping in solitary silence,
No power to protest the oppression of the mighty,
I see tender youths hitting out blindly
Cracking their heads against stones in their agony.

Today my voice is choked, my flute is without note,
The prison of the no-moon night
Has extinguished my world, given me nightmares;
And this is why I ask, through my tears:
Those who poison your air and blot out the sun;
Do You truly forgive them, do You truly love them?

-Rabindranath Tagore ( from The Question: original Bengali poem “Proshno”)

Advertisements

276 thoughts on “Man Has Created Death

  1. how long we have to suffer death and pain at the hand of these terrorists?? its high time our political leaders stop giving lip service..it’s like Sept 11 in the US..

  2. Lowest life cowards. I asked this question lots of times. Who has India hurt willingly? who has India troubled? Yet Indians be it Hindu or Muslim has to get hurt in the process, why?

  3. For the millions that travel that route everyday, would that journey ever be the same again?

    Nice choice on the Tagore, couldn’t have said it better.

  4. A sense of deja vu and numbness set in as the night crawled – anger? forgiveness? No, we have learnt to help ourselves through blasts, riots and floods.

  5. There is but one way to respond to this…. continue life in such a way that externally no impact is observed. Internally, I am sure, each individual will be torn apart everytime he rides the train to work, or back home, remembering the fateful evening when his wife, brother, father, etc was lost. But externally, they have to put on a resilient mask and be stoic, nonchalant, if you will. That’s the only way to make these horrible people see that their actions bear little consequence, except on thier own collective conscience. These people have bounced back before, and WILL bounce back again.

  6. conscience? These people have no conscience. Gandhian policies depend on the opponent’s sense of justice. If that is non-existent, that is not going to help. No easy solutions to this…

  7. I have always asked myself this question – what drives people to become so angry that they are willing to kill innocents for their cause or their anger? In fact, simply, what emotions can drive people to kill at all? I have never managed to give an answer to myself because I just cannot conceive of that mindset. I just cannnot identify with the mind of a terrorist.

    Is religion so important that it is worth taking lives for?

    Is land so important that it is worth killing for?

    Is anything so important that it is worth killing for?

    Bombay has been attacked again. Do the terrorists actually think they will get whatever they want by these random acts of destruction? Will it increase support for their cause Will this further that cause?

    The answer to all these questions to a rational mind is obviously no. But obviously these ar irrational people.

    And the most galling thing of all. People like Arundhati Roy will blame it all on the Indian government’s “repressive” policies. If the government were truly repressive, she wouldn’t get a chance to say such things at all.

    What do we do? The best thing for us to go ahead with our lives. Nothing sends a message to terrorists more than us showing them the futility of their actions. They spend time and money planning killings, and we show them we are not affected. It must be very frustrating for them.

    Meanwhile the government must hunt them down and kill them – softly, without fanfare, silently, effectively. No declarations of war. No “bring it on”. No playing into their hands.

    And we will prevail.

  8. today was a very sad day !!! I wonder what goes in their minds? How can someone be so angry for so long. Agreed, anger may cause you to take that first step towards darkness, but then what makes you go on.. go on mindlessly thinking this is the right way. Oh! those minds.. so twisted.. so f**king twisted !!

  9. No amount of words are sufficient to condemn such an act. Better not spend words at all. That Tagore poem was bang on target. Nice choice.
    Tagore wrote those lines after the Jalianwallah Bagh massacre. That was bad, but at least we knew who we were fighting with. Here we have a faceless foe.
    Or do we?

  10. “Meanwhile the government must hunt them down and kill them – softly, without fanfare, silently, effectively. No declarations of war. No “bring it on”. No playing into their hands.”

    Hey Shan, do you really think this govt. will do all that? Even the BJP when it was in power hardly did anything to tackle it. Cong. on the other hand repeals POTA. When a small but united country like Israel finds it hard to deal with such scum, imagine the problem in a vast, divided country like India!

    Aah we all know how faceless these foes are.

  11. Mumbai suffered, thrice in row in two weeks:

    1. From nature: Moonson rains.
    2. From Leaders and from its very own sons: Desecration of a statue and aftermath voilence.
    3. From a hidden enemy: 7/11 series of blasts.

    Yet you can see the spirit of city, glowing bright, It was ordinary people stepping up to task each of these three occassion. While Leaders adding to woes by doing courtsey trips with their entourage and taking away limited administrative and policing resources that the city has.

    City is still here and its Citzens still alive!

    Instead of a black peom. I would like to sing …

    I get knocked down … but I get up again … You are Never Going to keep me down.

  12. YOURFAN writes:
    We are speechless. How much do we have to suffer? I watched TV till 1:30 in the morning although I know I have to go to work. Even then I could not sleep – all those dead bodies, somebody’s hand only, some purse kept on rolling in my mind. I was wondering if this is how I feel then how the people of Mumbai are coping and how they are going to take those trains tomorrow. Life will never be the same for so many unfortunate families. Nobody knows who is going to be the next victims. We have to be lucky everyday just to be alive but the terrorists will have to be lucky just once – that is the most scary thought.

  13. There is no answer to any of those qns – there cannot be. The senselessness and needlessness of it is whats so frustrating. It helps absolutely no one, even in an evil-pursuit way.

  14. @Deep3rdMan: Totally agree and was thinking on just these lines. You can deal with people who commit such acts out of a real or perceived sense of injustice. How do you deal with people who you cannot reason with? Whose only reason for existence is to exterminate you, simply because you have no place in their view of an ideal world?

  15. Hey Bong dude – this is a bong chick from Mumbai – about yesterday – it sucks man – still to hear from some friends on the western line. Life has gone back to normal too soon. There will be no consequence to this either. May I link you?

  16. @Deep3rdMan and drivethrucover

    My point was exactly what you said. We should not make the mistake Israel or the US made, by launching a large scale, overt aggression. Those wars never end. This is precisely because we don’t know who the perpetrators are. See what its policies of the “iron fist” has got Israel. Nowhere. It is even today fighting the wars that started years and years ago – just because of it’s overt warmongering.

    Israel was at it’s most effective when it carried out its secret missions to take terrorists out (and before that, its hunt for war criminals). Even since the hawks have taken over and taken gotten into an all out war against enimies who are essentially faceless, it has started killing innocents as well in retaliation, even if it’s unintended. That has alienated everyone on the other side completely, as well as the rest of world.

    India has the majority of people on its side. Even the majority of common people in India, and even Pakistan and POK, I daresay, are sickened by violence against innocents. And it is these people who have to help us fight them. That is why the fight has to be stealthy, covert, and deadly – not xenophobic and indiscriminate.

    Testing nuclear bombs and getting wild-eyed, shouting “Har Har Mahadev” will not help us. Has not helped us, as you can see…

  17. “Even the majority of common people in India, and even Pakistan and POK , I daresay, are sickened by violence against innocents.”

    If majority of Pakistan is against terrorism, why don’t they do something.

    To evidence suggests contrary

  18. @ Gaurav: Yes, they should leave educating responses on blogs like these to demonstrate their support against terrorism.

    There is absolutely nothing to be gained by turning this disaster into an anti-Pak propaganda opportunity. They may, or may not deserve it. But please resist from trivialising this issue so. If you feel the anger welling up inside you which wants to do something to help stop such activities, then rest assured, you are taking it out in the wrong direction. Painting everyone with one brush and generalisation is something that the owner of this blog has always decried, and for a good reason too.

    May God give peace to those affected by this tragedy. Amen.

  19. @Shan: Agree. However fighting the terrorists is only the first (and I dare say easier) step. LeT, JeM and the like cannot operate in isolation. There are people who harbour them, just like people in TN harboured the LTTE. People who support them for whatever reasons/grievances of their own.
    Eliminating these support networks will go a long way in minimising the threat and impact of terrorism. And I would argue that the Indian state has not done enough to assure security and equality under the law to all its citizens, leading a few of them to support the terrorists. (This does not in any way condone their actions) If the state can be truly blind to religion in dispensing security and justice, we will have come a long way in our fight against terrorism. Dealing with the true nutcases will be much easier then.

  20. @Gaurav – Wow, you have found the solution to terrorism at one stroke! All that needs to be done is for all the citizens of Pak and POK to stop terrorism! Wonder how we all missed that one…

    But wait a minute, isn’t that a bit like saying that all that needs for crime against women to stop is for ALL men to stop raping?

    Personally, I thought it was pretty clear to rational minds that not all people, regardless of religion are terrorists. But if you think that all Pakistanis or Muslims are terrorists, then I obviously have nothing more to say to you. You need to debate with different people. Not me. Good bye.

  21. @drivethrucover

    Agreed. Terrorists can only work with support. and the government has obviously not done enough. But when I say terrorists, I don’t just mean the people who left the bombs on the trains. I also mean the support network you are talking about. We need to find them and destroy them, but without useless and self-defeating publicity.

    We have seen instances where every lead the government had was published in the front pages of newspapers. Everybody in India knew how many suspects the government had and what it was going to do next. Obviously the terrorists were tipped off.

    This time the government at least seems to be doing things differently. I say “seems” because I am hoping against hope that when the goverment said it had “no clue” about the bombings, it was fibbing. And that it is pursuing the terrorists anyway, silently.

    Or maybe I am expecting too much. Maybe it really has no clue (sigh!)

    What we don’t need right now is the BJP and Shiv Sena make it a political issue and put pressure on the government so that it is forced to reveal what exactly it is doing in the case. Maybe some backdoor talks with them will help.

    There are other steps we neeed to take, But let’s keep that for later in this discussion. But it doesn’t involve nuking Pakistan.

    Oh, and we need to put that Abu Azmi dude in jail pronto – in solitary confinement. He’s an obvious bad egg. Maybe that photographer turned street rioter, Uddhav, can keep him company there.

  22. I read a few comments here, which says we should get up, dust off and walk on as if nothing has happened. Mumbai has done that before and will do it again. But for how long? Till no one is left to walk again?
    It is this very resilience and the forgetful attitude of the Mumbaikar and of the Indian which makes the elected representatives of the people wonder how they can make money and score points off the situation and then forget about it.
    Why is it that no one was ever punished for killing so many people over and over again? Why do we pay most of our earnings as taxes if the government cannot secure our lives? Does anyone actually think that this won’t happen again? Does anyone think that the government is going to do anything to ensure that such a thing does not happen again, or go to any means to see to it that the perpetrators are identified and punished?
    One side will say it is the Pakis, the other side will generalize it to Muslims, the third side will say it is the Shiv Sena (no one else benefits), and a fourth side might blame the lower castes (in the first class compartment, remember?).
    But it is not a class, religion or country which did it, it is people, live flesh and blood, thinking and breathing people. It cannot be impossible to identify them considering the resources at the disposal of the government. Identify them, give them speedy punishment, assure the people that their lives are a concern for the country.
    Sadly, most people have sunk so deep into cynicism that no one really expects anything to happen. Sad is the plight of my country where my representatives cannot secure my right to life….

  23. Arnab,
    This is what I had written at desitrain and I would like to share with all the visitors here too…

    I can really see it … a 28 yr old man going home to his 5 year old daughter and the bomb ripping his head off. His father has despair written all over his face as I watch the TV. I can see innocent men and women like you and me …with families …and children and old parents and … sisters who need to be married…and handicaped siblings…sole bread earners….newly married couples…dying because they were simply …going home….becoming faceless nameless numbers…they say 140 died..what are their names? who were they? simply a headcount?

    I can see grim faced ministers, politicians, IAS officers, IB officials and police officers in a meeting agreeing solemnly that it was an intelligence failure…clicking their tongues,,,wishing it had never happened..and going home thanking their Gods that it wasnt their sons and daughters who died…

    I can see hundreds of Shiv Sainiks burning buses and creating chaos when Balasaheb’s wife’s bust is desecrated…but I cant see their strength in numbers when it is needed most….
    I can see a spineless political system start the blame game all over again..pointing fingers… I can see VIPs visiting hospitals where they are surrounded by frustrated policemen who know they are wasting their time and that they should be helping the common people….

    I see people take the train to office the next day inspite all their fears…”give us today our daily bread”…..

    I see millions like me…having lost their sensitivity..coming home…watching the news…sharing their grief…and then changing the channel…

    I see muslims all over India wishing it had not happened…since they have to prove their love for their own country all over again. They have to make an extra effort for their own fellowmen to believe that they too love India. Indian muslims love their nation and I am proud of them…but every such incident leads to instances where they have to prove their love to be counted as true indians….

    Our only saving grace is that the common people of Mumbai have shown extraordinary courage and guts to get back to their lives. The volunteers who waited for hours to give blood, who were there to guide, help and support total strangers…who showed the only human face in this entire tragedy.. the common mumbaikar is not so common after all…. he is a special gift of God.

    But, above all this I see the spirit of the common man..broken and tattered…I see fear in people when they board trains, buses and metros, I see an India that has lost its soul, it has been beaten and whatever we might say…we have lost. the world might “condemen theis heinous act strongly” but how many scars will we take until we realise how many people we have lost? How many men did we lose on the attack at the parliament, in Gujrat, in Kashmir, In Assam, In Manipur, In Punjab, in Mumbai bomb blasts, In Akshardham, in Kargil, at the bangladesh border – and yes – I believe that all these are connected. How many times will our enemies slap us and get away..and we like impotent eunuchs stand and clap,…and talk of restraint and taking the higher moral ground….have we lost all self esteem, self respect and “khuddari”

    We will never be the same again.

  24. I am tired of seeing another round of mutual backslapping on how resilient Mumbai is. It is pathetic to see all the people who have not suffered(I am sorry to say this – If I had my way I would want no one to suffer) and who are just standers by(including journalists) repeat these lines ad nauseam. For the people who are involved their lives would have come to a standstill yesterday – and will not move for many days and months if not years to come, while the rest of the world moves on (some resilience). I have only two things to offer to these people- my silence, my sympathy and sorrow.

  25. Palestenians militants capture one israeli soldier, and the whole country goes to war to save him.

    We keep facing blasts left right and center with hundreds dying, and all our eunuch prime minister is capable off is saying “We condone these deaths” and “These are acts of cowards”.

    What a shame.

  26. An interesting article!

    http://www.thestatesman.net/page.news.php?clid=2&theme=&usrsess=1&id=122890

    SMS ‘Y’ if you are alive, ‘N’ if you are not

    RAVINDRA KUMAR
    MUMBAI, July 11: At 6.25 p.m., a colleague and I leave a meeting in the suburb of Goregaon for an engagement in Andheri. At 6.35 p.m. he gets an SMS alert on his phone to say there have been two blasts in the city – one at Jogeshwari, the other between Bhayander and Mira Road.

    At 6.35 p.m., we turn off the Western Express Highway at Andheri and almost immediately find ourselves in the middle of a huge traffic jam. No one seems to know what is happening, the wait stretches to 20 minutes before we see the first of the vehicles ahead of us attempt to turn back. It is a tortuous manoeuvre but one that we manage, as our car happens to be near a cut in the road.
    I attempt to phone those we were to meet to say that we are unable to make the engagement. It takes several attempts but I do eventually connect. That though is the last call I am to make for some time. I cannot reach my wife, but I learn later that I did manage to get one text message across.

    But at that time I don’t know this, so my colleague and I spend the better part of the next two and a half hours, as traffic on the highway crawls, trying to contact families to say we are on the road, and so far safe. No telephone calls are possible, text messages will not go through.

    We reach my colleague’s home in Shivaji Park at 9.30 p.m. and switch the television on. Almost immediately, we hear the anchorwoman on one channel, and she must intellectually be a blonde, tell us that if we are stuck in a traffic jam we ought to send an SMS to a particular number to inform relatives that we are okay. Oh, brilliant! I am stuck in a traffic jam and what do I do? Switch the television on!

    Her colleague tells us that a lot of commuters are stuck in Khar, and wanting to get to Bhayander; and if Mumbaikars want to do something constructive, they might consider giving them lifts. Sounds wonderful until I start to work it out. If I am home in Khar, I am being advised to get to the station and drive people to Bhayander. If I am home in Bhayander, I am being advised to drive to Khar and fetch people back. If however, I happen to be in a car near Khar, and headed to Bhayander, I am, by inference, being advised to imagine that I have access to television!

    I switch channels. Each news channel has a number it suggests can be used to send messages to relatives and friends. And some messages have started to appear on the screen. “Pooja, this is Atul. I am fine”. “Vicky, are you okay?” Of course Mumbai has only one Atul and one Vicky, of course, these messages make perfect sense. Television has achieved its objective, made idiots out of all of us.

    The scroll running at the bottom of the screen says in exactly this order – “Phone lines jammed in Mumbai”; “Call 022-xxxxxxxx to make enquiries” or “If you want to be a citizen journalist, call 0120-xxxxxxx”. Excuse me, I just want to be a good husband and tell my wife I am alive. But you, Mr TV anchor, have managed to jam all the phone lines. And don’t tell me the service provider is not giving you a share of the loot.

    The spirit of the Mumbaikar may or may not manifest itself this day; the spirit of journalism’s idiot offspring is alive and well, and watching the pennies roll in. I can picture the reaction to this criticism. A chat show host will moderate a debate on whether TV is journalism’s idiot child, or perhaps on whether text messages to TV channels are useless in a crisis? And guess how you will be asked to participate? You will be asked to SMS Y to 0420 if you agree, or to SMS N to 0420 if you do not.

  27. Yes, I agree here with Shan. A full fledged war is not a solution against these faceless criminals.
    However, as somebody poinited out some bad elements from our own society are supporting these terrorists. Like RDX was found at somebody’s home in Aurangabad. Weapons found in Malegaon. Sensible muslims of this united nation has one duty – to work internally against these semi-terrorists. If terrorists don’t get these support mechanisms within society, they can’t go ahead with their insane motto. If they tip-off about terrorists to Muslims, Indian society would stay united and purpose of terrorists would be defeated.

  28. I am surprised how easily a war or even limited retaliatory action against Pakistan and its terror camps is dismissed out of hand.

    People ask for “solid evidence against Pakistan” – like so many fundamentalist muslims ask for evidence against Bin Laden and are in total denial about 9/11. These same people make absolutely no effort to learn from the plethora of reliable open source literature about the activites of the Pakistani army, ISI and Jehadi irregulars. How deep does their denial go ? In the face of the Pakistani Foreign minister claiming that “these ‘incidents’ are related to unresolved disputes between India and Pakistan, these people bang the table and demand solid evidence.

    Isnt the Lashkar chief being free in Muridke evidence enough ?

    Isnt Dawoods burqa clad midnight dash to Karachi enough ?

    Isnt Maulana Masood Azhar’s much feted presence in Bahawalpur enough ?

    The question to ask is, what evidence do we need to convince ourselves that it is indeed Pakistan that has carried out this outrage, either directly, or by using its proxies in India. Alternatively, the questions to ask the evidence parrots are,

    What evidence do you have that you are indeed your fathers sons/daughters ?

    What evidence do you have that you are not insane ?

    What evidence do you have that you are not merely a polite frontend to the Jehadi infrastructure in the Pig sty called Pakistan ?

    @GB >>
    Those who poison your air and blot out the sun;
    Do You truly forgive them, do You truly love them?

    May be great men like Tagore or Gandhi could, I am a mere mortal. I love my parents, my sister, my niece, my nephew much more that I do abstract terms like humanity or peace. If someone threatens them because they are not the “right” religion, or because a Pakistan has unresolved issues with India – I will not forgive, I will not forget, ever.

  29. sudeep,Suyog

    I 100% agree to what you have said…Like any sane mane I would ensure that nothing happens to my family…but about our nation…

    its a shame that we have hijras and ch****as as our national leaders…gutless swines… read this from CNN –

    Israel sends tanks into Lebanon after Hezbollah attack

    Hezbollah guerrillas killed seven Israeli soldiers and captured two more Wednesday, triggering Israeli airstrikes and military raids inside southern Lebanon, Israeli officials said.

    “Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the Hezbollah attacks were an “act of war” and blamed the Lebanese government, which he said would be held responsible.He promised a “very painful and far-reaching” response, The Associated Press reported.” – CNN.com

    The hezbollah had captured 2 soldiers and the israelis sent in tanks and aircrafts to teach them a lesson!
    Imagine a leader that says stuff like this! Aur ek apne leaders hain…

    even after this tragic incident we will go back to “creating an amiable atmosphere” and ‘sorting our issues through dialogue”! The terrorists are slapping us in front of the world and we look like fools… as i said… we will never be the same again.

  30. I agree with Sudeep, Suyog and Sophodes. I mentioned the same deal about Israel sending out a huge force to rescue 1 soldier in my blog too http://oktoberchyld.blogspot.com.

    I personally feel disgusted when our politicians make statements like “Your resilience and resolve will triumph over the evil designs of the merchants of death and destruction”…
    I don’t need such statements..we need action from our government. Show them that India is not to be taken for granted. That they can keep bombing our trains and buses and we will make Shakesperan dialogues…Merchants of death it seems…bull***t…

    Overall it was a sad week for India..The floods, Agni missile failure, GSLV launch failure and now bomb blasts…

  31. I do not think that war with pakistan is an option.

    However there are more than one ways to skin a cat.

    I think the solution should be obvious, question is do we Indians have the stomach for it ??

    By the reaction of platitude happy people, I think no !

    Well , Well ! The next thing to do is to wait our turn.

  32. The Israelis offer the worst possible example of how to handle a tough situation. They are more affected by terrorism than any nation on earth, and its because of their inability to be diplomatic. Not that the Palestinians are much better, all Im saying is we don’t need the mindless violence that exists in the Middle East. We don’t need the bullshit bring-it-on rhetoric, we don’t need the hatred (and I know you’re going to claim that all Pakistanis hate us, which is just bullshit – hatred arises out of the kind of fear you display).

    You see our ability to move on from the situation as weakness, I see it as strength. People are born. People die. Deal with it. And what kind of action do you want anyways? If you want the government to locate and punish the people who were responsible, I agree. But to spit out militant rhetoric and go to war(ala Olmert and Bush), that would be utterly idiotic. I’m damn glad you don’t make decisions for India, I can only imagine the kind of fucking mess we’d be in if you did.

  33. I think religion is one of the biggest problems of our times and times past as well. I can understand people fighting over land, over money, for freedom. But slaughtering people over religion! an abstract concept at best?! I will never understand this. Usually people who are poor, uneducated, lacking resources seem more likely to turn violent. But religion can make successful, self-sufficient people, ‘intelligent’ people from even London School of Economics turn into murderers of innocents. And over what? over God…whatever that means no one is even sure about.

    It’s amazing how humans have just conjured something out of their imaginations over thousands of years and now keep fighting over it. I wish this concept of religion and God never took root.

  34. @Sudeep:

    May be great men like Tagore or Gandhi could, I am a mere mortal

    I don’t think Rabindranth here is asking us, the mere mortals, to forgive them. He is suffering because he himelf is incapable of that forgiveness. The Question is if god could forgive them (evil). Rabindranath is asking that question in a very skeptical tone which does not come across as strongly in the translation as it does in Bengali. The doubt resonates much better with tumi ki than truly.

    To me, the Question seems to imply a doubt about god’s omnipotence (hence existence) if god does not forgive evil as suspected but could not stop it. If god does forgive evil and allows it for some reason, the poet would find it hard to relate to such a god who is almost malevolent. It is probably just me, but ever since I was forced to memorize and recite this poem for parar rabindrajayanti, it has always sounded agnostic.

  35. I don’t agree with people who say Israelis offer a bad example. If Israel did not behave the way they did they would not exist today.
    Look at Israel. They destroy their own settlements in Gaza and pull out Jewish settlers from Palestianan lands and what do they get in return? Missiles from all neighbouring countries? Why doesn’t the Arab nations apply the logic of moving on as Psamtani gives here?

    @psamtani: You said People are born.People die. Deal with it. Fine..if they die of natural causes, accidents, diseases…I have no problems in dealing with it. But if my people are killed prematurely how am I supposed to deal with it?

    We don’t need to go to war with Pak. We need limited military response. What we need is targetted Sukhoi stikes inside POK (not Pak) detroying offices of LeT and JeM. Ok. Pakistan can attack us. Won’t we attack back? Pakistan is not certainly small and ineffective as Lebanon but neither it is strong as China. We need to send a clear message that if you kill our people, we will kill yours too. When else will we stand up and fight for our security? When else would we put to use the billions of dollars we spend in procuring these war machines and defence systems than when our country is attacked?

    India should reserve the right to take action against institutions engaging in terrorist acts inside India.

  36. Bas ke dushwaar hai har kaam ka aasaan hona
    Aadmi ko bhi mayassar nahin insaan hona

    (Just like it is difficult for every task to be simple
    It is impossible for man to human)

    – Mirza Ghalib

  37. Because the hatred between Arabs and Jews runs deep. Even in the US, you very rarely see them mix – most Indians and Pakistanis see the conflict as political, not personal. And the ‘limited military action’ you speak of runs the risk of escalating into a full-scale war.

  38. @All:

    Firstly apologies for not being able to reply to all your comments individually. Some general observations:

    1. We have to make a distinction between a single Pakistani individual and his government. The fact that the Pakistani government has been fomenting trouble in India is beyond doubt. Whether they and their minions LET and JEM did this has not been proven as of now—-but their past record would make them primary suspects.

    However we weaken our case by jumping to conclusions without proper investigations.

    2. India is a soft state but the option is not to engage in armed conflict with Pakistan. Leaving aside Israel’s success (or lack of it) with its belligerence and eye-for-an-eye rules of engagement, we must understand realpolitik. Pakistan is no Palestine.

    3.Noone says all Pakistanis hate us. But a few do. And they are the ones in power —their government, ISI and their army. While pushing the Army in is not a solution, overtures of friendship and love, at least now, is also not a solution.

    4. It has been a sickening sight to see the BJP/Shivsena playing politics, Sonia Gandhi visiting victims at a time when the arrival of VIPs has been known to hamper rescue efforts and Rajdeep Sardesai’s self-promotion shamelessness.

    5. The spirit of Prosno is excellently brought out by Dipanjan—nothing more to be said there.

  39. Arnab,

    Rabindranath er ei prasongik kobita ta pore mon ta khub kharap hoe galo…sotti sotti prosno jage mone je Does He really loves them too who create such pain and grievances in their fellow men…their fellow earth dwellers…I hope not. I guess not. I hope His sword of lightning falls hard on them and makes them pay for every single crime they commit..for every single drop of tear they cause.

    Today I am really sad and not because they were my fellow countrymen.But more so because still on earth the hatred reigns. And our hatred for hatred only ignites it and peace seems to have no chance on earth. Being in UK when I met a guy who claims to be a Kashmiri Militant and claims that he killed 3 Indians and how he shocked the hell out of government and now he is earning a hefty amount here in UK…..I really doubt where is GOD? Where is his justice? Where is his sword of lightning…

    It seems humanity has got no say in this world of savagery. Only murder and murderers have….

    Regards,
    Ancient Mariner

  40. No, really, this translation is truly horrendous.

    kantho AmAr ruddho Ajike, bnAshi sangit-hArA
    amAbashyAr kArA
    lupto koreche AmAr bhubon duhswapner tale
    tAi to tomAy sudhAi asrujale
    jAhArA tomAr bishAiche bAyu, nibhAiche tabo Alo
    tumi ki tAder khomA koriAcho, tumi ki beshecho bhAlo..

    this has been ‘translated’ word-by-word as above

    Today my voice is choked, my flute is without note,
    The prison of the no-moon night
    Has extinguished my world, given me nightmares;
    And this is why I ask, through my tears:
    Those who poison your air and blot out the sun;
    Do You truly forgive them, do You truly love them?

    whoever wrote that – it’s not done!

  41. “Noone says all Pakistanis hate us. But a few do. And they are the ones in power —their government, ISI and their army. While pushing the Army in is not a solution, overtures of friendship and love, at least now, is also not a solution.”

    Very well said GB. I also request you to link your marvellous posts on terrorism from this post for the benefit of those who are new to this blog. – yf2.

  42. @GB- Well. I know that you have mentioned it a lot of times in different contexts. But the post that comes to my mind first is :

    https://greatbong.net/2006/03/08/love-sweet-love/

    I think it would be a nice link. That was some post.

    Also ,

    Id also like to mention if anyone cares to read :

    1> https://greatbong.net/2005/10/31/one-down-and-a-million-to-go/

    2> https://greatbong.net/2005/04/12/mir-jaffars-illegitimate-offsprings (underrated but brilliant).

  43. @Greatbong: I think I made the first comment compairing Israel, so I think I should offer an explanation.

    The point I was trying to make was how many value does a country give to its citizen. I personally *dont* agree with what Israel did after their soldier was held captive, *however* by doing what they did, they are setting an example telling their countrymen that every single life matters and is respected.

    Sadly – that, is not what our country believes in. All our multi-media singh was capable of saying was “This will not hinder India’s economic growth” – does he even get it? I am only thankful that he also didnt add “This will not hamper India-Pak dialogue”, which I am sure he will in coming days.

    The point is not attacking pakistan or something – the point is, how much of a strong stand do we take against a country that is playing fake friendship on one hand and infiltrating our country with militants on another. Why can’t our govt cut every single tie with that damned country and take a stand? No – instead, the usual drama follows: we first blocks air planes from flying over each other, but keep trains and buses open. Then we close buses and trains, but keep airspace open – and the circle keeps going on.

    All this while, a sole Indian’s life, is not even deemed valuable by its pathetic govt led by a pathetic weasel. Looking at Israel, one would feel proud to be its citizen where every single life is valued at.

    Its about time, India started taking some harsh steps to curb these incidents.

    I’m sorry if’ve taken too much of your comment space….

    Cheers,

    Suyog

  44. Rajdeep and CNN IBN took the cake with respect to pathetic timing. Thei gloating advets proclaiming “the world saw the tragedy through our pictures” was heartless and insensitve to say the least. I do not know but has rajdeep lost his marbles in trying to earn brownie points now??

  45. Rain rain go away…all the world is waiting for the sun ……..the sun of peace and happiness…and we all will never let it set ,………coz LIFE ALWAYS SURVIVES DEATH!!

  46. I’ve always wanted to slap Mr Sardesai, which is extremely extreme considering I’m largely pacifist, give most people at least a fringe benefit of doubt (even including those who’re indoctrinated enough to want to kill others – I cannot understand it but the amazing thing is they must think they’re right to go ahead with something that otherwise one’s conscience would just not permit – why ?)

    Mr Sardesai, otoh, is a one man freak show in the guise of journalism. He’s rude, invents controversy, passes judgement and gloats openly. He also usually looks like he’s high on narcotics. He’s probably got megalomaniacal tendencies about being opinion-maker to the country’s tv-watching elite, and hence kingmaker in the political circle.

    Someone needs to dislodge him from his fantastical perch. He represents to me all thats wrong with journalism today. He’s managed to coach Arnab Gowsami etc well,, despite these guys having started out as rather decent journos.

    Sad that he derives heritage from the very measured, sophisticated and balanced legacy that Pronoy Roy left behind. Shows how anything can take a bad turn.

  47. Even as he is tossed around between castrated leaders and circumcised terrorists, a Mumbaikar knows how to stand erect and carry on. Saalaam Mumbai. Keep it up.

    -Bathroom graffiti, Mahim station, Mumbai.

  48. GB,

    “We have to make a distinction between a single Pakistani individual and his government. The fact that the Pakistani government has been fomenting trouble in India is beyond doubt. Whether they and their minions LET and JEM did this has not been proven as of now—-but their past record would make them primary suspects.”

    I realize it may sound churlish, but by reaction in Pakistan to such attacks do you think Pakistani public is asking its government to stop.

    Any news papers article? anything ?

  49. Hello Rajdeep, Arnab, Barkha and you countless random and nameless psueds,

    So you now want to battle it out who got me the best pics how fast is it ? “Exceptional Image & Sound Quality, straight from the victim’s bloody rump”

    I bet you would interview the dead even, if technology permitted.

    “Mumbaikar’s resilience” continues to inspire you is it ? Who are you speaking for ? Those who lost their near and dear ones ? Or pepping yourself with inspirational stories within the confines of your airconditioned offices”

    How much did you spend on your marketing blitz on this occassion ? The spiel, I admit, makes good copy my friends?

    You got those pretty ones onto the “5.57 Borivly fast, the very train that met with the disaster” And stuck your disgusting sticks onto the hapless guy forced to take the train, and found the act “Oh so courageous.. Gratifying” What pop crap ? Why don’t you commission a Music Video instead ?

    What now ? Chat shows, analysis, slice and dice ? I bet your schedule for the month is arranged? What do you think you will drive ? Other than your stock price, I mean?

    Happy selling my firends
    Keep the show on..

  50. Reminds you of another poem beginning with “Where the mind is without fear…”.

    It was heartening to read another greatbong on the greatbang and one hopes that the government gets after and catches the notsogreat gang.

    Once again, I salute the common man of Bombay for his spirit and resilience.

  51. With the kind of politicians we have I doubt anything would change. We will get agitated in the aftermath of the tragedy but within a few days everything would be forgotten. We will call it the resilience of the Indians but in reality it is just the our apathy. The media would be full of stories of how people of one religion are helping the others in the time of tragedy. And if the media wants someone to lay the blame on, they do not need to look too far – Modi and his progroms, destruction of Babri mosque by fundamentalists both will come in handy. No one would care to remember the dead or enquire about the well being of the people who have lost their near and dear ones. After all what is the value of life in our country, absolutely nothing. But we will keep on fighting (as we have done for ages) with each other on petty issues. We never ever see the larger picture.

  52. Don’t go to Pakistan to find people who hate us.You find kashmiris in India who call them kashmiris and not Indians and spit at indian flag.They always stress the fact that India kept kashmir by force.Even you don’t have to go to kashmir,you find on the dingy lanes of mumbai or kolkata where muslim clerics are poisoning muslim ghettos and cooking up stories about hindu oppression.They say that since India is a country run by hindus and there are no representations for muslims that’s why the muslims are not having jobs and food.They are forcefully taken to prisons by anti terror law.But sadly there are no reformer among muslim community in India to say that go to public schools and not madrasa.Go for family planning ,do not listen to the clerics.Your salvation is in science and technology and not in 6th century arabic values.You should inculcate Indianism and denounce jehad.
    You say anything against Quran and you suffer the fate of Taslima Nasrin.How long we are going to stray away for the fact that political parties in India are constantly ignoring reforms among Indian muslims for the fear of losing vote bank.We are taught from the childhood not to question any religion in India. Stop hypocrisy and make uniform and real secular laws for everyone in India.Stop religious teachings in every kind of madrasa,catholic and hindu schools.
    You won’t have a Simi or LET growing on Indian soil.Then everyone would be proud to be an Indian and won’t think himself or herself belonging to a religion.

  53. No man is an island entire of itself; every man
    is a piece of the continent, a part of the main;
    if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe
    is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as
    well as any manner of thy friends or of thine
    own were; any man’s death diminishes me,
    because I am involved in mankind.
    And therefore never send to know for whom
    the bell tolls; it tolls for thee.

  54. @Anonymous who posted article about SIMI.

    Dude, what is the evidence to suggest that SIMI is involved. TBF I dont think SIMI is a terrorist organization and I personally think banning of SIMI is very stupid. I dont see SIMI any worse than Bajrang Dal.

  55. Foolish people like Sanjay(real name?) post their comments without any trace of knowledge.
    SIMI is a terrorist organization is a well known fact. Read on following:
    http://members.tripod.com/israindia/isr/may22/simi.html
    The goal of SIMI is to convert India into an islamic land and for that SIMI says it is waiting for one more Gaznawi (for less knowledgeable people like Sanjay – mahmud gaznawi invaded India and is famous for razing down Somnaath temple). You can imagine how sick SIMI people must be who hold gazni and osama bin laden as their heroes.
    For SIMI there is no value of Indian constitution (SIMI ideology is Quran is our constitution)which is not case of Bajrang dal. This is the major difference. If enemies attack India, Bajrang dal will fight to protect India while SIMI people will co-operate with enemy.

  56. What angers me is the accusation that India is a soft state and that Indians in general are soft. And that you’d actually prefer the paranoia of the Americans and the hostility of the Israelis. You act like our country is at the risk of collapsing under the weight of the terrorists. Our patience and diplomacy are strengths, not weaknesses – if it means that we’ll have to suffer a little more in the short term, so be it.

  57. @PSamtani: A little more in the long term? Ahem. No. In an abusive relationship, staying silent as a show of strength only increases the abuse. Same here. Action (brutal) is needed—primarily against the terrorists (obvious) and their public backers, like the Samajwadi Party.

  58. You read it wrong, I said short-term. And I’m not proposing silence, I just don’t advocate going ballistic.

  59. BTW, I wasn’t attacking your comments in particular. I’m more ticked off at the people who are casting the Indian government in a negative light compared to Israel. What Israel is doing right now is nothing short of terrorism.

  60. I read Roger Howard’s argument…I feel it does not work for India. Pakistan is indulging in State Sponsored terrorism thru ISI and that is different from a one off British suicide bomber attacking Israel or a British muslim fighting Indian army in Kashmir.

  61. From the article:
    The fact that events in one country have always inevitably had repercussions in others is instead a necessary justification only for cooperation between governments, for international surveillance of existing or would-be national enemies and for well-organised domestic policing.

  62. Pingback: Look Who Is Coming to Dinner at Random Thoughts of a Demented Mind

  63. sad, truly sad..
    the saddest part is how some religious leaders have managed to poison the minds of uncomplicated youth, and are carrying on their agenda for power through others, by killing others!
    however, they have underestimated the human will, will to survive, will to fight back, will to smile through it all, they’ll never understand it as they lack the basic human instincts, the basic goodness that is a part of all of us.
    we’re with you, ppl of mumbai. hats off to ur spirit, the way in which u guys bounce back and carry on is truly great. may god give u the strength to fight, and may god bring light to the ignorant souls who think they’re fighting for a just cause by taking others’ lives.
    wake up!!

  64. Reminds me of a poem I read in Hindi once, which stayed with me:

    Kshama shobhti us bhujang ko
    Jiske paas garal ho
    Us se kya jo dant-heen,
    vish rahit, vineet, saral ho?
    (Translation:
    Mercy looks well on the venomous serpent. Who cares about the one who is venom-less, courteous and simple?)

  65. Today the condition of india and israel are quite similar.Both surrounded by hostile nations governed by fundamentalists.Both having insurgency problems stemming out of few ullemahs.But the difference lies how they tackle and how we tackle.delhi,mumbai,vanarasi,akshardham and above all kargil had been forgotten by governments because our country does not value people lives.Rather they would ask polygamists to produce one after another.Somebody could see the reaction of mulayam singh declaring SIMI not a terrorist outfit.The next day the israeli opposition leader benjamin netanyahu appears and threats lebanon to uproot hezbollah.They can give an eye for an eye.And we are poor Indians waiting for the next time when we get bombed.

  66. Right – You could have made your point without attacking my name which kind of suggest that I am a muslim under a Hindu name disguise. Well Sorry to dissappoint you, my real name is Sanjay. If you can believe that then it’s your problem. Irony is that you yourself dont have the balls to post with your real name. 😉

    Secondly both to you and ‘DUDE’ – I accept that SIMI has an agenda to turn India into an Islamic state, but how does it make them a terrorist organisation ? How is it different from RSS, Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena wanting India to be a Hindu state ? I was a History majors so I do know who Ghaznis and Ghauris were, they were part of our history in some way. whatever they did was 1000 years ago when the world was not so civilized. But what Bajrang Dal and its Advanis did in the 1992 is the reason why we have so many Muslims organizations popping up every day. Seriously I dont really care if Mahmud of Ghazni demolished a temple 1000 years ago and neither I will lose sleep if my muslims friend (who was a member of SIMI once) dreams of me doing Sajda@ Medina.;)

    You may not understand it, but it is humiliating to Muslims when every Hindu who fought against muslims is idolized but Mirqasims and Shershahs who were as much of heros as Rana Pratam take the back pages of our history. Our History is not Fair to Muslims.

  67. GB Says “Action (brutal) is needed—primarily against the terrorists (obvious) and their public backers, like the Samajwadi Party.”

    Arnab – Are you suggesting that It is obvious that SIMI is behind the attacks ?

    Secondly, why spare words for our politicians who are courting Pakistan like Prithviraj and Sanjogita ? I have never understood the reason for this sudden warmth in relationship between the two countries when :-

    a. Dawood is still operating from Pakistan, it’s even more apparent now that his daughter is married to Javed Bakri Miandad.
    b. And that Big D is using his money and his resources to fund and protect the likes of LeT and JeM
    c. Maulana Masood Azhar is still roaming freely in Pakistan
    d. Musharraf’s (or his govt.) hostility toward India has not lessened a bit.

  68. Is Al Queda to the Middle East what the CIA is to the United States?

    Is Al Queda to the Middle East what the CBI is to India?

  69. @Sanjay “I accept that SIMI has an agenda to turn India into an *sla*ic state, but how does it make them a terrorist organisation ? How is it different from RSS, Bajrang Dal, Shiv Sena wanting India to be a Hindu state”

    An observation:
    At it’s extreme, RSS/Bajrang Dal (mind you not BJP) aims for a Hindu state. BUT THEY HAVE REITEREATED SEVERAL TIMES AND PUBLICLY SO THAT MINORITIES WOULD BE FREE TO PRACTISE THEIR RELIGION EVEN IN A HINDU STATE.
    SIMI on the other hand, aims not just for an is*amic state, but to forcibly convert the entire population of india to *s*am.

  70. @ sanjay: Come come – surely if you did not care about Somnath temple being desecrated 17 times – why so much tears about Babri Masjid? Isn’t that historical data too?

    The fact is that RSS etc. despite being idiotic organisations do not want every citizen of India to convert to hinduism or die – which your SIMIan friends do. Remember India has been identified as a ‘Dar-ul-Harab’. So please stop this fluffy hand-waving.

    Similarly – I do not know where you have done your history education from – but most history under-grad level education in reputed universities study books by A L Basham and Romila Thapar. If you call them as being ‘unfair’ to muslims – then I’m sorry you do not know what you are talking about.

    Even in school level history – I remember being taught about the Slave Dynasty, Sher Shah, Mughal Period, Tughlaqs. There was never any hint of bias against muslim rule. Regards Rana Pratap – are you trying to assert that Indians get taught more about Rana Pratap as compared to Akbar?

    The only place where one can think of some bias against islamic heritage, is in the naming convention of the Indian armed forces. But what to do – pakistan has a PNS Tipu Sulatan !! would cause some confusion don’t you think? “Tipu Sultan sinks Tipu Sultan” !!

  71. I didnt believe India had a bias against a community till I got to Bangalore and started looking for a house to rent. People kinda assumed my name was a Muslim one (the Paranjpe’s, Dighe’s et al of the world notwithstanding) and then I had to refuse numerous houses after enlightening the landlords – I refuse to do business with those who do not see me for who I am, but more for the ‘group’ I might belong to. Sucks, really. I have no issues being mistaken for a Muslim, or Punjabi, or Bengali, or Somali. The issue is being forced to have a ‘group’ identity and being ascribed attributes based on that.

  72. As for history, its always been writen by the victors (not Banerjee) – so the preponderance of Muslim history is not unnatural – they also caused a lot of the events around then.

    The Somnath invasions etc happened in a very different era. History provides context and surely, the middle eastern and European civilizations were ‘getting civilized’ around that time – thus the turbulence in political/religious thought.

    The conquerors and marauders had to stamp their authority and religion was a very powerful symbol (a lot many churches were built over ‘pagan’ places of worship too) – sadly the Al Qaeda types are stuck in that era but the the rest of us claim to have emerged and moved ahead – so why use examples from a period that whose thought process cannot really understand, and certainly cannot condone in the context of current thinking, and justify a current action based on that ?

  73. @Sameer:- I do not think one can point to anecdotal evidence as symptomatic of ‘bias’ against an entire community. To counter your example – I would say that the people who stayed as tenants at my in-laws’ house during the ‘nineties were Kashmiri muslims. My in-laws never hesitated to give them tenancy. So does that mean – there is no bias against muslims?

    similarly, years ago, I had gone to Patna for an interview and asked directions at a local sweet-shop: The first question I was asked by the chap – ‘app koun caste key hain’? as if directions were predicated on that !!

    So – yes, in a land as diverse as India, biases exist – on religious, caste, linguistic and ethnic grounds. But no-one is more portrayed as a ‘victim’ than the islamic community and I’m afraid these ‘do-gooders’ who cry out for understanding the ‘islamic psyche’ after every terror attack, end up doing them no favours I’m afraid.

  74. “so why use examples from a period that whose thought process cannot really understand, and certainly cannot condone in the context of current thinking, and justify a current action based on that ?”

    That indeed is part of the problem – we have emerged and evolved. But we are fighting a foe which refuses to evolve. Whose actions are determined on the literal interpretations of a ‘word’ written over a thousand years ago !! Yet it would be blasphemous to suggest that some ‘leader’ ought to interpret those lines in the current context.

    So you are already loading the dice: A terrorist outrage – immediate response: think of the current context, babri masjid, bombay riots, gujarat riots. Can you blame them for wanting revenge ? you say.

    The problem is that SIMI and LeT have a specific agenda. They get more tools because of these incidents – but the agenda has not changed: which is to remove a secular state and establish the preponderence of islam. So if Kashmir, Gujarat and Babri Masjid did not exist – they would have to invent some new set of grievance. And the only way to mitigate that is to. how did someone put it? – do sajda in mecca or die.

    So the question is: at which point of the salami slice – would you say: ‘enough’!! and why? because logically – if one defends SIMIan actions in terms of ‘historical injustice meted out to muslims’, cannot one argue that that not converting to islam can also be viewed as ‘injustice’ by the SIMIans?

    jmt

  75. Those are your words in my mouth – i didnt intend or imply those. The point was being made against an argument which said ‘oh you “forgot” Somnath’s plunder so easily’. At no point did I justify or defend the blasts or rioting or anything – i believe the perpertrators and their backers must be made examples of. At the same time stereotypes and generalizations do nobody any good.

    I am not taking sides, and that means “i-am-not-taking-sides”. Why is neutrality and an attempt at fairness so tough to accept – a-la George W ? There’s too much stance hardening and I for one do not want to be part of it and judge everyone else.

    To those who argue againt the “Islamic Terrorist” tag being used for these guys, remeber – they chose the tag – they chose to identify their cause with religion. Don’t blame this one on the media or the ‘west’. On the part of the govt, there is a need to figure out why so many in the population get swayed by rhetoric, whether hardline Islamic, naxal etc ? Poverty alone is probably not the answer, nor is religious ‘belief’. The communities, ethnically identified regions themselves need to soul search. At the end of it, the constitution defines us and is sacred, and other identities must come second. (Whats with this identity crisis crap everyone seems to have anyway ?)

    Finally , what happened to me in Blore was repeated multiple times by multiple people – it was not a one off. Moreover, I cannot imagine these people happened to be suspicious of just this one educated, jeans clad “Muslim”, and are perfectly ok with others. Empirically, there must be a bias for me to have come across it multiple times in my rental search.

  76. @ Sameer: But then your argument is a cop out. You are drawing an arbitrary line in the sand when you say Somnath temple is out of context but Babri Masjid is not.

    Hindu-Muslim antagonism did not start post Babri-Masjid. Dr. B R Ambedkar has written a superb book in 1943: Pakistan or the Partition of India. He has cogently argued why Pakistan is ‘necessary’ and has documented hindu-muslim riots since the early 1900s.

    Regarding ‘generalisations and stereotyping’, it is unfortunate but a reality. Governments operate on finite security budget. So on an average it makes more sense to give proctological examinations in airports to ‘muslim south asians’ or ‘muslims of mid-east origin’, than – say – eskimoes. One cannot afford to operate on a premise that there are 6 billion people on the planet and every time a bomb-blast occurs, every individual could have committed that atrocity with a probability of 1/(6 billion)

    Regarding getting swayed by ‘rhetoric’, I thought Margaret Mitchell put it best in Gone With the Wind when she said – if you do not invoke god or country or rights – who would be stupid enough to fight?

  77. I did not say the Babri Masjid is out of context. In fact I did not even mention it! All I’m saying is ‘caring about Somnath’ vs ‘caring about Babri’ (or Bombay or Gujarat or the huge naxal issue) are very different things. The first has a purely religious-‘honour’/hurt-my-feelings value to it, the second is about the current state of the nation and where its going. Honestly I could not care less about building X or Y or Z, unless as works of art or utility. The problem that these symptoms indicate – hardlining, animosity, the urge to kill the ‘other’ and taking focus away from what could be steps forward in solving real issues, is what bothers me. Now thats more or less missing from the Somnath episodes, which provide good historical context, and just that. I refuse to compare the behaviour of the neanderthals of a random region to discuss the issues of the current generation – and too much focus on really old (and because of time, mutated) skeletons in closets will cause more problems than it solves. I’s rather focus on what can solve issues, not wosen them. Not that I’m claiming I can do that alone, but a little more of that (all concerned) would help a hell lot more than the extreme mistrust and finger pointing that goes on.
    Again, taking the last statement in the context of the blasts is unfair and wrong, b. The argument is more to cover the broadening of the dialogue that ensued.

  78. OTOH, why am I trying to convince you ? You have your views (and i mine) , and a strong desire to not waver, and to not be “proven wrong” (sorry – am probably being judgemental, but the same applies to me). The dialogue will start hitting the same points again, and go nowhere. May you find your peace, and I mine. Else we’re both not that different from the extremists we’re discussing 🙂

  79. Oh don’t worry – we are not here to change views – We are here to understand thought processes that are ‘alien’ to our own 🙂

    you seem to somehow think that Indian’s have ‘hardened their attitudes, increased animosity’ and there was a time when it was ‘better’. I have a more cynical view of the World – I think that a level of conflict always existed – only the capacity to inflict damage has increased. What the consequences are of this ‘improved’ capacity – I do not know.

    So in that sense – ransacking the property of people of another religion ( a la Somnath) is not too different from bombing local trains. Only then one did it like a crusading conqurer, now another does it like a terrorist thug. The core objectives remain the same.

  80. Arnie – “surely if you did not care about Somnath temple being desecrated 17 times – why so much tears about Babri Masjid? Isn’t that historical data too?”

    The difference is Ghaznis and Ghauris were uncivilized Invaders whereas Advanis and Katiyars were so called civilized folks from the most tolerant religion and were citizens of a secular country.

    And Somnath Temple destrction is history because neither me, nor my ancestors (those I know of) were part of it and it has had no significance on my life today, otoh, Babri demolition is part of my life, I was alive when I saw terrorist blasted a Mosque and it affected me tremendously as a person, as a Hindu. Infact it is still affecting the lives of many individuals in India, whereas Ghazni’s invasions do not have any impact today on anyone’s life.

  81. Arnie “Even in school level history – I remember being taught about the Slave Dynasty, Sher Shah, Mughal Period, Tughlaqs. There was never any hint of bias against muslim rule. Regards Rana Pratap – are you trying to assert that Indians get taught more about Rana Pratap as compared to Akbar?”

    Get your facts right first. Ranapratp is treated as a patriot for his bravery against the Mughals(read Akbar), Battle of Haldighati (which was really worthless) is glorifed and exaggerated to no end. Yes Akbar get a lot of ve pages in the India history book but you will find that majority of these ves are aobut how he started a new religion, married Jodhabai and not really much on him being muslim.

  82. Arnie Says “The fact is that RSS etc. despite being idiotic organisations do not want every citizen of India to convert to hinduism or die – which your SIMIan friends do. Remember India has been identified as a ‘Dar-ul-Harab’. So please stop this fluffy hand-waving.”

    Please dont spread your ignorance, my SIMIan friend is the least violent person I have ever met, so dont write crap about people you dont know and limit your post to your ignorant views on SIMI in General. Ignorants like you spread ignorance and hatred. Please tell me you have read SIMI’s ideology, why not quote it from their Mainefesto ? Also Please name some SIMI members who have ever been found guilty of terrorism. Ever heard the name Dara Singh the terrorist that killed a christian missionary by such non-violent means..SO much for RSS being a peaceful organization.

  83. Arnie “Similarly – I do not know where you have done your history education from – but most history under-grad level education in reputed universities study books by A L Basham and Romila Thapar. If you call them as being ‘unfair’ to muslims – then I’m sorry you do not know what you are talking about”

    One needs to have studied (1989-92, Burdwan University, WB) History to know that Romila Thapar’s books on ancient history are taught in Indian Schools and Colleges. I would challenge you to find a college in India that uses Romila Thapar’s Books/Articles or even publicly shares her views on beyond mideaval Indian History. I hope you know that mideval Indian History is the most significant one in this discussion.

  84. Correction –

    “I would challenge you to find a college in India that uses Romila Thapar’s Books/Articles or even publicly shares her views on beyond mideaval Indian History.”

    It should be “her views of Mideaval Indian History”

  85. @ Sanjay: This is really interesting – SIMI becomes a terrorist organisation only if I know the names of some SIMI members associated with Terrorism. Is your real name Mulayam singh Yadav? Papers are loaded with information about SIMIan activities and thanks to you we have to keep waiting from ‘proof’ – because you know a ‘harmless’ SIMIan. Don’t you know the whole objective of terrorism is to strike like a coward and run away before one gets any proof?

    Read below the philosohy of SIMI.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Students_Islamic_Movement_of_India

    My argument is simple. It is what the Australian Government told the ‘militant sections’ of the muslim population. “If you cannot agree to the concept of secularism – please leave. Go to a country which accepts the Sharia. SIMI’s objective is to set up an islamic state in India. This goes contrary to what I have learnt about India being a secular state. Therefore SIMI is an enemy. Your harmless friend notwithstanding.

    Many patriotic germans joined the Nazi Party. But still can’t argue that the Nazi party was good and decent, because you knew one good Nazi.

    I am not a student of history but your article by Romila Thapar proves my point. – but no history education denigrates muslims in our country. Battle of Haldighati was mentioned in a few lines in our ICSE textbooks.
    Please do not confuse education with Amar chitra katha.
    The fact that Romila thapar wrote about ancient india is neither here or there. Are you trying to tell me that the texts on medivial india taught in Indian colleges are biased against muslim rule? What in your opinion would be an ‘kind’ representation of muslims in Indian history texts? Glorification of Aurangzeb ?

    You don’t care about Somnath temple because it did not affect you. You care about Babri Masjid because it affected you. Why defend SIMIans ? because they do not affect you? Ask those 200 people who died in mumbai. They will say – they do not care about Babri Masjid because it did not affect them – but they care about SIMI because it affects them. So I suppose that makes it all right.

    Incidentally Justice Wadhwa denied that Dara Singh was a member of RSS . But I suppose that is not good enough for you. Possibly because you do not know a ‘harmless’ member of RSS.

  86. I’d agree with Arnie on the SIMI thing – they have gone on record not recognising the constitution – and have goals which go against whats enshrined in there. Terrorist or not (that proof is the burden of a court or govt agency), they’re intolerable.

    As for the history book thingy – blame ICSE, not the volume of work itself. Apart ffrom the “text books”, there are amazing texts out there – I did a couple of presentations on the Chola empire which got barely a passing reference in syllabus. The Rajputs (a ‘clan’ I belong to) always “fought valianty but lost” 🙂

    Aurangzeb was not so glorified, even in the text books. It was mainly Akbar – who was a Din-e-Elahist if you re member that, and pretty open minded chap, who was. And the rest were pretty much nondescript figures. Aurangzeb came out as a rather cruel, patricidial paranoid dictator, which he was.

    What was said was that the Mughal empire gave India a unified kingdom like few before – and thats not entirely untrue from known history – tho I suspect Magadha and even the Harappans might ‘ve gotten there earlier to an extent.

  87. Arnie – So What is your reason for calling SIMI a terrorist organisation, just because they dont recognize the Indian constitution they become a terrorist organization ? If that so then aren’t RSS/VHP/Bajrang Dal the same for ?

    Or are you saying that just because there are allegations of their involvement, they automatically become guilty ? What happened to to innocent until proven Guilty ? This itself kind of proves the kind of Bias that exists in India against the muslim community(and other minorities). There is a murdered that is rulling the state of Gujrat, there are murderers like Bal Thackery, Madhukar Sarpotdar, Manohar Joshi, etc roaming around freely despite various commisions reports and OTOH SIMI becomes a terrorist organization because of mere allegations.
    http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1716/17160110.htm
    http://www.flonnet.com/fl1518/15180230.htm

    Whether I am Mulayam Singh Yadav or Lalu Prasad, is really none your business, unlike you I just want to be fair.I will accept SIMI as a terrorist organization, If the govt can prove a terrorist case against SIMI member(s) in a court of LAW. SIMI was not founded as a terrorist organization, it was founded as a Students organization of Muslim students mainly from AMU and it was no different from ABVP or SFI.

  88. Arnie Says “The fact that Romila thapar wrote about ancient india is neither here or there. Are you trying to tell me that the texts on medivial india taught in Indian colleges are biased against muslim rule?”

    You dont get it, do you ? Indian history is divided into 3 parts, Ancient history, Mideval and modern. Ancient history is what IVC, Mohenjodaro, Harappa, Are Romila Thapar’s books on Mideval India being taught in Indian Schools and Colleges ? Is there any university in India that endorses Ms. Thapar’s books on Somnath Temple in its syllabus ? NO.

    And yes, I am telling you that Indian texts are biased against Muslim rulers. Rana Pratap is great, Prithviraj Chauhan is great, But a ruler like Shershah Suri is ignored. Indian history spends majority of it chapters in a. ridiculing Muslims rulers like Tughlaq 2. Potraying rulers like Balban, Khilji, Aurangzeb etc as Villains 3. Glorifying Hindus in all Hindu-Muslim battles 4. Ignoring rulers like Shershah Suri, FIrozeShah Tughlaq etc

  89. Arnie says ““If you cannot agree to the concept of secularism – please leave. Go to a country which accepts the Sharia. SIMI’s objective is to set up an islamic state in India. This goes contrary to what I have learnt about India being a secular state. Therefore SIMI is an enemy. Your harmless friend notwithstanding.”

    Did you know that it is the Indian constitution that allows muslims to follow Sharia in a lot of(non-criminal) matters ??

    So who is the the one against Indian constution here, You or SIMI ?

  90. Arnie says “What in your opinion would be an ‘kind’ representation of muslims in Indian history texts? Glorification of Aurangzeb ?”

    I dont want any kind representation, I want truth be told in our history. Rather than focussing the history on the hindu-muslim conflicts that sow the seeds of animosity and mistrust in the minds of our children, focus on the good things they did. How many people really know that Khiljis were great patrons of literature and Art, remember Amir Khusro ?

  91. Couldnt agree more with sanjay.

    Go after the *real* perpetrators, fry their balls. sweep them off the face of the earth. the law abiding human being, regardless of his religion is contributing to the development of the country. What wrong has he/she done?

    Some might say, ya sure, after all most real culprits in such incidences will be muslims. so flush all who share that religion! I ask, by sheer numbers, india would have more criminals from the majority of the population. What then? flush the majority too??? oh yyeah.

    The history books, to their credit, have belaboured the ill-effects of the “divide-and-rule” strategy adopted by the british. All of us have read those. Sadly though, when the politicians preach hatred, we are willing preys. why??? Why are we un-learning and going back a century??

    It is easy to take focus off the real issues such as poverty, employment etc, cos they will take “real” work. it is easy to go give a fiery speech, working into the jobless man’s imaginations. and lo, get elected to power.

    I am very certain that even if say, this whole religion debate is settled along the lines of how arnie/vhp/others want – then the next on the agenda will be further divisive lines!! cos these ppl know nothing better! where do you draw the line?? Such negative forces are there all over, shias vs sunnis…we human beings can always find divisive lines, and being escapists we find comfort in supporting these forces. they are happy cos they have a fan following, without having to do any constructive work!!

    What good has the babri masjid demolition done??? but for countless common ppl going through unspeakable horrror??? other than getting the said party to power? how many hindus now have more food to eat? how many hindus are now better supporting their families???

    We have ton of real issues. pls lets focus on those. such squabbling is not going to take us anywhere. to each his own.

    India, by choice, does not belong to any sect,religion. PERIOD.

  92. “I will accept SIMI as a terrorist organization, If the govt can prove a terrorist case against SIMI member(s) in a court of LAW. SIMI was not founded as a terrorist organization,”

    Oh God – another of those ‘give me proof and I’ll promise you support’. What sort of proof do you want? A taped conversation saying – “hey abdul go with 8 friends and put 8 bombs in 8 local trains in mumbai – because we are a terrorist organisation and we want islamic rule to prevail over India.” Sorry – this form of proof isn’t coming. Every intelligence gathering is about linking together a set of discrete or random events or thoughts. If you go to the South Asia terrorism portal – you will see that SIMMI has been tracked for a long time. They have said that they do not believe in the Indian constitution, they have called bin-laden the bravest mujahidin (who incidentally specifically identified hindus as an enemy), They do not consider kashmir to be a part of India and you are still waffling about – proof, proof give me proof.

    Unfortunately the rules of sharia will be applicable to all the citizens of India (that is what preponderence of islam means as envisaged by SIMI) and not selectively as used by the Personal Law Board (you know – don’t meddle with Shah Bano’s, but follow Indian penal code for robberies – where cutting off the hands are allowed by the Sharia).

    Incidentally Article 44 of the Indian Constitution specifically says that the State shall endeavour to secure for it’s citizens a uniform civil code.

    The fact that SIMI was a students organisation therefore all is well is a facile argument. The German Workers party was a party which was set up to protect the rights of the workers before being hijacked by Hitler to form the National Socialists.

    Your arguments about ‘mistreatment’ of muslim rule seems to be one of ‘focus’. Your basic argument is that the history focuses on all the wars they created and not the ‘love’. But you do not claim that the ‘facts’ are untrue. I’m not sure what you mean by ‘ignoring’ certain islamic rulers. India has – what a 3000 year old history? Surely one cannot devote equal time to every ruler at school or college levels ? If you think there is a ‘gap’ do a phD on it.

    The whole objective of history education in India is to get an understanding of the diversity of Indian cultures, get a series of factoids on how past events have affected the present (the ‘institutions’ theory), an ability to take pride in your historical pedigree and to inculcate critical thinking. I’m not sure how much the last objective has been met – but the first three have been met to a substantial degree. I don’t think any of us grew up with a rabid hatred of Akbar because he defeated Hemu.

    Perhaps you can give us specific quotes in college level history texts which ridicule muslim rulers.

  93. @ sanjay: you said: “SIMI was not founded as a terrorist organization, it was founded as a Students organization of Muslim students mainly from AMU and it was no different from ABVP or SFI.”

    Agree. but sadly, i am not so sure that they are clean anymore. the police have arrested several belonging to SIMI, i would wait for the results of the investigation before presuming that SIMI is clean and had nothing to do with the blasts.

  94. Arnie Says – “Oh God – another of those ‘give me proof and I’ll promise you support’. What sort of proof do you want? A taped conversation saying – “hey abdul go with 8 friends and put 8 bombs in 8 local trains in mumbai – because we are a terrorist organisation and we want islamic rule to prevail over India.”

    The Irony in this highly offensive statement is that Abdul was posthumously awarded India’s highest gallantry award PVC for his bravery and then there is another Abdul who is India’s president at the moment and a great patriot.

    Anyways, on what basis do you want to implicate SIMI and call it a terrorist organization ? You have no proof, you have no evidence, you have no case yet. So you want to chastise an entire group and a community on mere suspicion ? Has the government been able to build a case against them in any of the blasts that has happened in last few years? They(SIMI) are 400-500 member organization and alomost 20000 volunteers, are you saying that our intelligence is so incompetent that they cant find one guy out of 20500 SIMI activists who supposedly are involved in terrorist activities ?

    I am sorry, just because someone wants Islamic rule to prevail over India isn’t enough reason to categorize them as terrorists. Forget proof in a court of law, let the govt even build a credible case on the basis of their investigation and I will accept SIMI as a terrorist organization.

  95. @ Sanjay: And Abdul is also a guy who sold nuclear secrets to a whole lot of rogue states – so what is your point? Stick to the arguments – do not create a bunch of strawmen. What sort of proofs will satisfy you? One can pick holes in any sort of ‘proofs’ given todays level of technology. Tapes can be manufactured, confessions can be extracted under duress. So the only way to identify terrorists (potential) – is to identify the ideology of the organisations that they are associated with. Because unlike your birth, you can CHOOSE which association to be a member of.

    Have you been to the South Asia terrorism portal? Do you know how many people have been arrested from SIMI on suspicions of the Sabarmati express bomb blasts to Varanasi bombings?

    http://www.satp.org/satporgtp/countries/india/terroristoutfits/simi.htm

    Yes it is very difficult to find absolute proofs – Do you know the FBI never found any proofs against Al Capone to be a Mafia chief? They ultimately got him for not filing his tax returns.

    If SIMI has 20,000 members who have joined the organisation – knowing full well that not believing in the Indian Constitution is a treasonous activity – then they are classified as terrorists. Your vague hand waving not-withstanding.

  96. Arnie Says :- “Your arguments about ‘mistreatment’ of muslim rule seems to be one of ‘focus’. Your basic argument is that the history focuses on all the wars they created and not the ‘love’. But you do not claim that the ‘facts’ are untrue. I’m not sure what you mean by ‘ignoring’ certain islamic rulers. India has – what a 3000 year old history? Surely one cannot devote equal time to every ruler at school or college levels ? If you think there is a ‘gap’ do a phD on it.”

    Islamic Rulers created War ?? Please get a history book and read. There was no INDIA then, it was divided into 100s of small provinces which were fighting with each other before (and after) the Islamic Invasion. When the Ghauris and Ghaznis invaded, these kings became Heros of Indian History. Clearly none of these kings fought for INDIA, they fought for themselves and LOST, so yes, the fact that is being passed into our history, as you said about Islamic rulers “they created war” is simply untrue. RanaPratap, Prithviraj didn’t fight for INDIA, they fought for Mewar and RaiPithora. Incidently It was Jaichand, the King of Kannauj who invited Ghauri to attack Prithviraj and aided him. And Jaichand is treated as a ‘Traitor’ in Indian history for his act. If you want to know about the furthur glorification, search for ‘Prithvirajraso’ on the net.

    As for not devoting enought pages to ‘EVERY RULER’ – Well Shershah Suri was no average ruler. He was exemplary and should have been in the front pages of Indian history for his reforms in pretty much every system in ancient India. He is the best Ruler of Delhi Sultenat.Here is a brief Read about him – http://www.afghan-network.net/Culture/shershah.html

    And no I wont be doing any PHD, There are enough historians already who have dont PHD, but they cant forcefully educate people or include an unbiased history in our school syllabus, can they ?

  97. Arnie Says “Unfortunately the rules of sharia will be applicable to all the citizens of India (that is what preponderence of islam means as envisaged by SIMI) and not selectively as used by the Personal Law Board (you know – don’t meddle with Shah Bano’s, but follow Indian penal code for robberies – where cutting off the hands are allowed by the Sharia).”

    Thank you for bringing up the Shahbano case, Did you know that majority of those who reversed the decision of Supreme Court were Hindus ? Arif Mohammad Khan, a muslim, who was supporting Supereme Court wasn’t even allowed to speak in the Parliament. So it’s not really the fault of muslims that a personal law is in place. There are enough muslim reformers, intellectuals willing to work but they are helpless at governments appeasement policies. Let the government implement the uniform civil code, there will be enough muslim scholars, reformists that will come forward. You cant blame muslims for the continuance of ‘Sharia’, it is Indian Politics, majority of which is Hindu, that has to be blamed.

  98. Arnie Says “I don’t think any of us grew up with a rabid hatred of Akbar because he defeated Hemu.

    Perhaps you can give us specific quotes in college level history texts which ridicule muslim rulers. ”

    For God’s sake read(or refresh) history before making idiotic posts. Akbar was a child when Mughals(under Bairam Khan) fought and defeated Hemu in the 2nd battle of panipat. And Hemu wan’t even a king, he was the army chief of Adil Shah (SherShah Suri’s dynasty). Also Hemu was on the verge of winning the battle but was unfortunate that he was hit in the eye by an Arrow. His fell from his elephant and his army got demoralized and lost the battle. Unfortunately Hemu’s contributions, who fought much more vlaiantly than the RanaPrataps and Rana Sangas, get very little mention for reasons a. he wasn’t a king b. he was leading another muslim army.

    I dont remember specific quotes but just have read enough history to know how Muslims rulers have been portrayed in In Indian History.

  99. Arnie Says “And Abdul is also a guy who sold nuclear secrets to a whole lot of rogue states – so what is your point? ”

    Is that Abdul an Indian ? Puhlese, Indian muslims have much more credibility than that.

  100. Arnie Says “So the only way to identify terrorists (potential) – is to identify the ideology of the organisations that they are associated with. Because unlike your birth, you can CHOOSE which association to be a member of.”

    In that case be consistent, dont single out one organization, one community, one religion.

    Bajrang Dal – http://www.bajrangdal.org/

    VHP – http://www.vhp.org/englishsite/hindurashtra.htm

    ShivSena – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiv_Sena

    Current form of RSS is very different from what it was founded.

  101. @ Sanjay: So what should be taught in ancient ‘Indian’ history and mideaval ‘Indian’ history – when clearly there was no India ? Prithviraj Raso is not taught in Indian Schools – so why should I bother about prithviraj raso ?

    Give an instance of where muslim rulers are ridiculed in Indian school and college text.

    Similarly I find your logic strange – are you suggesting that the wars fought by the islamic rulers were not wars because India did not exist ? I thought the fact that Jaichand collaborated with Ghori is pretty well known. I’m still at a loss about your hang-up with Sher Shah Suri – how much about sher shah should be taught at school levels before you think it is enough? The basic question that we should be trying to answer is: Does the teaching of Indian history inclucate feelings of hatered towards minorities (say like pakistan)? The answer is no. The issue of whether we should spend more time studing Sher Shah Suri or Raja Raja chola is mere semantics and does not address any issue of how that will help muslims overcome their sense of hurt !!

    So Rajiv Gandhi overturned the Shah Bano case – so of course it was them ‘hindus’ that did it !! (or should it be parsis that did it?). Of course the Syed Shahbuddins who threatened violence and agitation had nothing to do in the decision making process. We had agitations in India over a bunch of danish cartoons !! And I’m sure all the muslims would have peacefully let the matter rest in the Shah Bano case. Don’t you know agit-prop has been a major tool used by these so called muslim leaders to hold the political class to ransom?

    Again to make it relevant to SIMI – their islamic india is similar in vision to the taliban style rule – where non-muslims are expected to be second class citizens (as in wear yellow turbans or some identification as a ‘non-muslim’)

    You seem to be selling us this strange theory that being anti SIMI is somehow being anti-muslim. It is because of terror apologists like you that India continues to ‘soft state’.

  102. “Is that Abdul an Indian ? Puhlese, Indian muslims have much more credibility than that.”

    Are SIMIans Indians? they don’t recognise the Indian constitution. I would rather pay credit to that Abdul from across the border, who never disguised his hatred for India – than this bunch who live in India and plot the murder of innocent Indians at the behest of foreign masters.

  103. Arnie Says “So Rajiv Gandhi overturned the Shah Bano case – so of course it was them ‘hindus’ that did it !! (or should it be parsis that did it?). Of course the Syed Shahbuddins who threatened violence and agitation had nothing to do in the decision making process. We had agitations in India over a bunch of danish cartoons !! And I’m sure all the muslims would have peacefully let the matter rest in the Shah Bano case. Don’t you know agit-prop has been a major tool used by these so called muslim leaders to hold the political class to ransom? ”

    Rajiv Gandhi didn’t overturn the Supreme Court Decision, Indian Parliament did and the then president signed it. Now I hope you are are suggesting that Rajiv Gandhi and Indian Parliament are the one and same. And Syed Shabuddin threatening violence a is simply untrue. Agitations are going to be there, but the govt has the responsibility to do the right thing. Our Govt didn’t and you cant blame Muslims for it. What would have happened if govt. had not reversed the decision ? A Few rallies, few agitations ? Who cares really, there are rallies and agitations for dropping Sourav Ganguly, what happens, coach shows fingers to those supporting SG and move on ? IMO There were enough Muslim scholars, muslim women organizations that were supporting SC verdict. Instead of blaming muslims, accept it that it was the government which, to secure Muslim male votebanks, did that.

    And please dont post ir-relevant stuff about Danish Cartoons and all and dont defend idiotic and provocative stuff by the Danish paper. It’s funny that you keep posting things that happened in other countries, but your ridicuolusly biased mind keeps forgetting that fundamentalist in our own secular country attacked MF Hussain for painting a picture of Sita and ShivSena Goons attacking people for celebrating Valentine day. ShivSena Terrorist have long been running hate campaign against Non-Marathis and Muslims. It’s hard to work in Mumbai and not hear Marathis compalining “You come from outside and take our Jobs” and this you get to hear even in Elite Companies like Citibank and Citicorp. ShivSainiks targetting non-maharashtrians and muslims is a common thing in Mumbai, their hate campaign has been going on for years.

  104. Arnie says “Are SIMIans Indians? they don’t recognise the Indian constitution. I would rather pay credit to that Abdul from across the border, who never disguised his hatred for India – than this bunch who live in India and plot the murder of innocent Indians at the behest of foreign masters. ”

    Yes, SIMIans are Indians just line the Bajarangis, RSSians, VHPians, Modis, Advanis, Atals, Godses, Savarkars, Aptes, Togadias, Girirajs, Singhals, etc. These gentleman preach Hindutva so it’s Okay, SIMI preaches Islam so it’s not OKay, isn’t it ?

    Indian constitution doesn’t allow Hindu Nationalism and/or propagation of Hindutva Agenda. Why should Muslims be forced to sing Saraswati Vandana in Schools or they be forced to sing full Vande Mataram.(http://www.frontlineonnet.com/fl1601/16010940.htm) If you want India to be like Australia and follow uniform civil code and blah then at least replace the Hindutva flavor with Secular ones.

    Lastly SIMI plotting murders and blasts is yet to be proven. Trial by Media isn’t going to prove anything.

  105. Arnie Says “Give an instance of where muslim rulers are ridiculed in Indian school and college text.”

    Muhammad Bin Tughlaq is termed as ‘Pagal Sultan’ and ridiculed like a joker in Indian History for mainly two things a. shifting the capital b. Changing the currency. Akthough these two policies failed, the fact is that he was one of the most educated, well informed intellectual ever to rule Delhi. Feroz Shah Tughlaq who succeeded him his termed as “meak” king which is not really true because he didn’t have any interest in expnading his kingdom.

  106. Arnie says ” So what should be taught in ancient ‘Indian’ history and mideaval ‘Indian’ history – when clearly there was no India ? Prithviraj Raso is not taught in Indian Schools – so why should I bother about prithviraj raso ?”

    FACTs, the way they are/were. Prithviraj Chauhan was no nationalist patriot, he was no hero. Ghauri was no villain. Balban, Khilji, Aurangzeb etc were no villains and Shivaji, RanaPratap etc were no patriots. Something along the like of history of Cholas/Chalukyas/Chers etc – they fought with each other, but noone is a Hero/Villain there, they are praised for their work not for who won and who lost. Along the likes of Pre-Islamic era, where no one is a Hero for winning the wars.

    And whether PrithvirajRaso is taught in Indian colleges doesn’t change the fact that it is part of documented Indian history and often quoted in the history textbooks.

  107. Arnie Says “Does the teaching of Indian history inclucate feelings of hatered towards minorities (say like pakistan)? The answer is no. The issue of whether we should spend more time studing Sher Shah Suri or Raja Raja chola is mere semantics and does not address any issue of how that will help muslims overcome their sense of hurt !!”

    Why should we compare Our country to Pakistan ? Pakistan was created a theocratic State, they are not obligated to teach equality among religions or produce unbiased history books. Our ancestors made our country Secular and hence thrust a responsibility on us to present a history that is unbiased, uninciting and state complete facts as they are.

  108. And that’s the last post on this I have made here. I dont intend to teach you history here. You can carry on believing whatever you want.

  109. Sanjay, why would you defend the SIMI so vehemently ?All said and done, the country could do with less fundamentalism or any form of extreme ideologies. I’m not debating if the other organizations u mentioned are less or more exreme etc, but in any case, their character or nature is in no way a legit excuse for SIMI to be what it is.
    Why does is degenrate into an X vs Y argument so easily ? X may be wrong – this hardly gives Y a right to follow. Under the constitution we’re all trying to defend or stick within the scope of, they’re both criminals is they break laws, and defending one or the other is hardly constructive.

  110. Sameer – I am not defending SIMI, but before declaring them as a terrorist Organization, I would like our govt, law and enforcement agencies to build a credible case against them. IMO Media trial and speculations aren’t enough reasons to declare it a terrorist organzation.

    I would also prefer a consistency rather than picking on one religion. I feel it is extremely hypocritical that people call SIMIans as terrorists and term Bajrangis as patriots of some sort.

    This orgazination (SIMI) was a peacful organization for close to 20 years. Its time for some retrospection of what has happened in last 10-15 years. Are we still the secular state mentioned in our consitution ?

    IMO It was the rise of Hindutva Brigade that made it change its nature (if it all it has). The seeds were sown by the VHP and Bajrangi extremists in late 80s and early 90s. When the BJP came to power it started changing the text books, started forcing Sarswati Vandanas in Schools of UP, that idiot MuraliManohar Joshi distortion of Indian History. It

  111. Cong, NCP wooing SIMI cadres

    http://www.tribuneindia.com/2006/20060720/main4.htm
    Aurangabad, July 19

    “The Congress and the Nationalist Congress Party in power in Maharashtra have been actively wooing SIMI’s former members with an eye on the town’s 35 per cent Muslim population. Even when the local police periodically rounds them up following incidents like the recent Mumbai bomb blasts. ”

    Back in TamilNadu, TMMK (DPA partner of DMK govt) says :-

    “SIMI is a spiritualist organisation. It will never get involved in extremist activities.”

    http://www.mumbaimirror.com/nmirror/mmpaper.asp?sectid=4&articleid=7192006205839687719200620575500

    So much for SIMI being a terrorist organization.

  112. @ Sanjay: Please – all your arguments are a crock of bull. If VHP attacked M F Hussain’s painting of a nude Saraswati – it was an Indian issue in India. It is these Pan Islamic fundamentalism movements – which makes bunches of muslim run out and destroy normal life in India, because of things happenning in Denmark or Iraq – which is the issue. We haven’t had hindu’s marching on streets because Some shoe company in UK put photos of Ganesha on their slippers.

    Bajrang Dal does not collaborate with the hindu kingdom of Nepal to put bombs in local trains of ‘communist’ West Bengal. They do not want to create a theocratic hindu state – unlike SIMI – so please do not suggest stupid equivalences where none exists.

    If SIMI was a ‘peaceful’ organisation and has been ‘hijacked’ – it is not the fault of those 200 people in mumbai who died – they are the victims here. SIMI has an ideology of creating an ‘islamic’ state in India – irrespective of Babri masjid and Kashmir – why is it so difficult for you to understand this basic point.

    Have you ever worked in Mumbai? I have. So please do not bring the ‘son of the soil’ agitation in the 70s and portray it as evidence of ‘hindutva’. Such agitations have happened in – andhra, Karnataka, TN and Assam.

    Nobody has forced any muslim to sing Vande Mataram (despite this being the national song).

    It is patently stupid to assume that SIMI is not a ‘terrorist’ organisation because it is being wooed by Mulayam Singh and Congress etc. Dawood Ibrahim has a lot of political contacts – does that mean he is not a terrorist?

    Regarding Shah Bano – At that time Congrress had an absolute majority in parliament. Congress psycophancy is well known – so RG overturning it or Parliament overturning it is one and the same. So if Congress overturned the Shah Bano case to secure ‘male muslim’ vote abnk – isn’t that evidence that significant numbers of ‘male muslims’ were against the Shah Bano verdict?

    The point is a section of self loathing indians try to portray every thing that is going wrong as ‘our fault’ and are quick to absolve the culpability of certain minority organisations.

    SIMI’s activities have been tracked and published and we should ‘introspect’ as to what went wrong !! Well please introspect – hopefully people who run the country will be smarter than you are.

    Regds Muhammad-bin-Tughlaq, the history books report what became popular folklore. His shifting of capital and issue of Token currency has been acknowledged as a ‘thought far ahead of his time’. How else would you know about it? and How on earth does this hurt the muslim population in India ?

    Are we going to get some vague vigniettes of Indian history from you – without an explanation of how it hurts the current muslim population?

    But don’t bother – your arguments (such as they are) have reached the point of diminishing returns. The facts are this – There are about 120 million muslims in India. If SIMI has 400 members and 20,000 ‘volunteers’ – Then they are terrorists, your attempts to blur the distinction between SIMIans and ordinary Indian muslims not-withstanding (Afterall why else would you take the names of Abdul Hamid and Kalam in the same breath). So I understand your agenda – but it won’t work.

  113. Arnie Says “Please – all your arguments are a crock of bull. If VHP attacked M F Hussain’s painting of a nude Saraswati – it was an Indian issue in India. It is these Pan Islamic fundamentalism movements – which makes bunches of muslim run out and destroy normal life in India, because of things happenning in Denmark or Iraq – which is the issue. We haven’t had hindu’s marching on streets because Some shoe company in UK put photos of Ganesha on their slippers.”

    You are an ignorant bigot of Highest order.

    “Hindus congregated with One Voice at Knightsbridge (London) on 12th June, outside the French Embassy, at a Rally organised by Hindu Human Rights (HHR) to protest the manufacture and sales of shoes with the image of Lord Rama printed on them.”
    http://www.hinducounciluk.org/artdetails?rec=87

    “FRENCH SHOES WITHDRAWN AFTER HINDU OUTCRY”

    http://www.redhotcurry.com/archive/news/2005/hfb_minelli.htm

    Hindus marched in NYC in protest against MF Hussain.

    http://www.sanatan.org/hussaincampaign/usprotest5.php

    Protest in Washington DC:- http://www.sanatan.org/hussaincampaign/keyevents.php#2jun

    Hindu Protest Forces Sony to Remake CD
    http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1997/7/1997-7-19.shtml

    Beer ‘Ganesh’ brews storm in US: The Times of India
    http://www.zeenews.com/znnew/articles.asp?aid=217971&sid=NEW

    There are many more, you just need to open your eyes and READ.

    PS :- I had decided not to reply you, but your lies and ignorant rants made me change my mind.

  114. Arnie Says “Have you ever worked in Mumbai? I have. So please do not bring the ’son of the soil’ agitation in the 70s and portray it as evidence of ‘hindutva’. Such agitations have happened in – andhra, Karnataka, TN and Assam.”

    Another Ignorant comment. The only thing I was trying to portray was the extremist nature of ShivSena. Read Shrikrishna Commisiion report to know more about their acts.

    The Agitation was not only in 70s. in 2003 Sena Goons beat up non-Maharashtra students and prevented them from appearing in Railways/Postal exams, ransacked Railways board offices, . If that is not violation of Indian Constitution then what is ?
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/841488.stm
    http://www.newssafety.com/stories/ifex/india210206.htm

    And I am not aware of any ‘Son of the Soil’ movement in Andhra, TN & Karnataka. Those who do it in Assam are banned.

    And, Yes I did work in Mumbai, CitiBank and Citicorp both. It is pretty common talk in offices.

  115. @ Sanjay: Incidentally, I thought Prithviraj Raso was composed by Chandbardai – the court poet of Prithviraj. So what do you suggest govt. of India do in the interest of ‘secularism’? Ban it?

    No school history books in India portarys Balban as a villain and Prithviraj as a hero. They just provide the bare facts. You are the one who wants to assign some value judgement – where you want it stated explicitly stated that Prithviraj did not fight for India and Aurangzeb was no ‘villain’ !! Why ? stating facts are inconvinient?

  116. Arnie Says “Regarding Shah Bano – At that time Congrress had an absolute majority in parliament. Congress psycophancy is well known – so RG overturning it or Parliament overturning it is one and the same. So if Congress overturned the Shah Bano case to secure ‘male muslim’ vote abnk – isn’t that evidence that significant numbers of ‘male muslims’ were against the Shah Bano verdict?”

    Congress had absolute majority in Lok Sabha, not Rajya Sabha, And President also needed it. Besides, Since Congress had secured the vote bank why did they lose the next Parliamentry election ?

    Majority of Muslims were obviously against it but Govt has got to what is right. And you can’t blame the failure of govt on Muslims. You cant hide behind the excuse of Congress psycophancy, dont blame muslims for this either. If India is to abolish the caste system today, there will be an uproar in Hindu community, will that prove that Hindus are radical group ? NO.

  117. Arnie Says :- “The facts are this – There are about 120 million muslims in India. If SIMI has 400 members and 20,000 ‘volunteers’ – Then they are terrorists, your attempts to blur the distinction between SIMIans and ordinary Indian muslims not-withstanding (Afterall why else would you take the names of Abdul Hamid and Kalam in the same breath). So I understand your agenda – but it won’t work”

    It’s not FACT. Not yet atleast. SIMIans may be pan-Islamiscs but until there are some concrete evidence against their involvment in these blasts, I would continue to believe that they are not involved in it.

    As for why would I take Abdul Hamid and Abdul Kalam, well same reason why any Hindu(or Indian) will object when someone writes “Hey Gandhi – What mosque you are going to blow up today”. Obviously should have been careful in choosing names. You could have chosen MirJaffer or Aurangzeb, I would have been perfectly fine with it.

  118. “Congress had absolute majority in Lok Sabha, not Rajya Sabha, And President also needed it. Besides, Since Congress had secured the vote bank why did they lose the next Parliamentry election ?”

    Bullsh**, Congress had absolute majority everywhere and Giani Zail singh was hardly your president with an independent mind.

    Cong lost because of that little thing called Bofors and V P Singh, but they were still the largest party in parliament.

  119. Arnie Says “Nobody has forced any muslim to sing Vande Mataram (despite this being the national song). ”

    Yeah right and pigs were flying in the sky today. All I hear from yous is denials, half truths and nothing else.

    http://web.mid-day.com/news/city/2004/august/90931.htm

    “Adopting a tough posture over Vande Mataram, the Shiv Sena today said those refusing to sing the prayer-song for the motherland have no right to stay in this country.”

    http://www.hvk.org/articles/0503/31.html

    “On Saturday, India’s 51st Independence anniversary, several schools in Kerala’s northern districts defied the state government directive on reciting Bankim Chandra Chatterji’s poem, Vande Mataram. …..The order, making the recitation of Vande Mataram compulsory in all educational institutions, was given by the education department on July 27. ”

    http://www.hindu.com/2005/06/20/stories/2005062009210100.htm
    “The compulsory recital of `Vande Mataram’ at government offices and ban on fashion shows in colleges, have triggered a row in Madhya Pradesh.”

    Yes Vande Matram is a national Song, but If muslims feel that it is against their faith to sing praise for a Maa Durga then who are we to force it upon them ?

  120. Arnie Says “It is patently stupid to assume that SIMI is not a ‘terrorist’ organisation because it is being wooed by Mulayam Singh and Congress etc. Dawood Ibrahim has a lot of political contacts – does that mean he is not a terrorist?”

    It is an extremely hypocritical stand. If SIMI is a terrorist organization then any person/group that seeks their support in getting to political power or maintains any kind of link with them is also a terrorist. You cant have it both ways. They are either terrorists or they are not.

    If they are terrorists then all political parties should distance themselves from SIMI, if any political party tries to maintain contact with any terrorist organization or shows sympathy towards it then it should be banned. Remember VAIKO ?

  121. Arnie Says – “Regds Muhammad-bin-Tughlaq, the history books report what became popular folklore. His shifting of capital and issue of Token currency has been acknowledged as a ‘thought far ahead of his time’. How else would you know about it? and How on earth does this hurt the muslim population in India ?”

    I know it from reading other History books, doing my own research on them out of interest. History books have to report facts rather than FOLKLORE and have a reponsibility to present all the facts about the person/place it is about. And it was just an example of how good things about a muslim ruler are left almost untouched and his poor decisions are ridiculed. When almost everything thing about Islamic History is that biased, then yes it is not FAIR and insulting to the muslim community.

  122. “If they are terrorists then all political parties should distance themselves from SIMI, if any political party tries to maintain contact with any terrorist organization or shows sympathy towards it then it should be banned. Remember VAIKO ?”

    sure – I have no quarrel with that – but the reverse causality isn’t true. Just because political parties are courting them for short term gains – dos not mean that it is NOT a terrorist organisation.

    SIMI as it stands does not believe in the Indian constitution, does not believe in secularism and is prepared to help people who wish to hurt Indian citizens. That makes them a terrorist organisation in my book. You can have pan-islamic allegiances – but respect for the Indian constitution is inviolable.

  123. Arnie Says ” Incidentally, I thought Prithviraj Raso was composed by Chandbardai – the court poet of Prithviraj. So what do you suggest govt. of India do in the interest of ’secularism’? Ban it?”

    Did you know that PrithvirajRaso full book isn’t really available and only selective stanzas(once again part of folklore and passed on generation after generation) are quoted in history books in order to glorify Prithviraj Chauhan’s bravery ?

  124. “History books have to report facts rather than FOLKLORE and have a reponsibility to present all the facts about the person/place it is about. And it was just an example of how good things about a muslim ruler are left almost untouched and his poor decisions are ridiculed.”

    The FACT is that both hhis change of capital and use of token currency were disastrous for the population (and his treasury). His intentions may have been good. As we know – the road to hell is paved with good intentions. So why is it incumbent on history books to focus on ‘intentions’ rather than ‘outcomes’?

    When I have to complete a project my boss will look at the results and not my ‘noble intentions’.

  125. Arnie Says “No school history books in India portarys Balban as a villain and Prithviraj as a hero. ”

    It seems like you are in a blatant denial mode now. Anyoneo who says that PrithviRaj Chauhan isn’t depicted as a hero in Indian history is out of his mind.

  126. “It seems like you are in a blatant denial mode now. Anyoneo who says that PrithviRaj Chauhan isn’t depicted as a hero in Indian history is out of his mind”

    You are not particularly bright are you ? The ‘heroism’ is for his defence against external aggression. Which is again a FACT. Or are we to listen to your ‘theory’ that since there was no ‘India’ – there can be no external agression. Therefore history could well be written from the perspective of Ghori !!

    So a text book written by you should read – I don’t know – ” 2 kings fought, one from Afghanistan and one from Rajasthan” ?

    It is NOT depicted in history books as a ‘hindu’ hero against a ‘muslim’ villain. If any such ‘association’ is done – it is in the pakistani minds – when they call their missiles – Ghori and Ghazni

  127. “Did you know that PrithvirajRaso full book isn’t really available and only selective stanzas(once again part of folklore and passed on generation after generation) are quoted in history books in order to glorify Prithviraj Chauhan’s bravery ?”

    So?? It is a quote by a court poet. I’m sure even non Burdwan univ. students can figure out that a court poet will exaggerate the achivements of his master.

    What do you think that if the full book was available, Chand bardai would have done a critical analysis of Prithviraj’s rule in chapter 2 ?

  128. “Yes Vande Matram is a national Song, but If muslims feel that it is against their faith to sing praise for a Maa Durga then who are we to force it upon them ?”

    Ah I see – so that specious logic that Vande Mataram is a paen to Maa Durga actually has takers !! The Indian independence movement is replete with people using it as a rallying cry of ‘hail motherland’ and we are expected to believe these lies as ‘facts’.

    And how do you know muslim’s are against singing Vande mataram? Or are your SIMIans or that other great secular party – The Muslim League, representative of indian muslims?

    Have you worked in government offices? Do you know the meaning of being a government servant? – you are expected to respect all the National symbols – which includes the ‘National Song’.

    So damn right , there is nothing wrong in making it compulsory. But unfortunately we cannot enforce these rules – too politically incorrect. France enforces rules – like banning of Hijab – despite rioting. I guess that tells us a lot about our national charecter.

    Would you argue that if your SIMI pals want to raise the pakistani flag – who are we to stop them? or let us take the logic further – if muslims find that their religion tells them to kill kafirs – who are we to stop them?

  129. Arnie Says :- “So?? It is a quote by a court poet. I’m sure even non Burdwan univ. students can figure out that a court poet will exaggerate the achivements of his master.”

    Yes, but that does convey that Prithviraj is glorified in the history. Whether or not history students can figure this exaggerated glorification out is beside the point.

  130. Arnie Says “Ah I see – so that specious logic that Vande Mataram is a paen to Maa Durga actually has takers !! The Indian independence movement is replete with people using it as a rallying cry of ‘hail motherland’ and we are expected to believe these lies as ‘facts’”

    Lies ?? Have you ever read full Vande Mataram ?? Here is a translation of the relevan stanza by Sri Aurobindo Ghosh :-

    ” Every image made divine
    In our temples is but thine.

    Thou art Durga, Lady and Queen,
    With her hands that strike and her
    swords of sheen,
    Thou art Lakshmi lotus-throned,
    And the Muse a hundred-toned,
    Pure and perfect without peer,
    Mother lend thine ear,
    Rich with thy hurrying streams,
    Bright with thy orchard gleems,
    Dark of hue O candid-fair”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vande_Mataram

    Apparently I have watched Shahabuddin Interview on TV where he said he did’t have a problem with the first few stanzas where it is about the motherland, but serious objection with parts where the poet is talking about hindu temples and goddesses.

  131. Arnie Says “let us take the logic further – if muslims find that their religion tells them to kill kafirs – who are we to stop them?”

    In 1857, Mangal Pandey revolted against the British because he was made to use a bullet catridge that used cow fat. MP is a martyr in our history for standing upto his religion.

    You comparing Muslims refusal to killing Kaffirs is simply bigoted and proves your lack of understanding.

  132. Arnie Says “The ‘heroism’ is for his defence against external aggression. Which is again a FACT. Or are we to listen to your ‘theory’ that since there was no ‘India’ – there can be no external agression. Therefore history could well be written from the perspective of Ghori !!”

    First you said there is no Hero depiction and not change the tune to “it was for his defence against External aggression”. LoL @External Aggression ?? Are you saying that Punjab,Kashmir etc were not part of India ?

  133. Arnie Says “So damn right , there is nothing wrong in making it compulsory. But unfortunately we cannot enforce these rules – too politically incorrect. France enforces rules – like banning of Hijab – despite rioting. I guess that tells us a lot about our national charecter.”

    Good atleast you accept it now that it was indeed made compulsory to sing Sarswati Vandana and Vande Mataram in some states in India. And I am amazed at your (in)ability to understand things, what France did was just opposite, to remain completely secular it banned (not just Hizab but)ALL religious symbols from state schools. On the other hand we are forcing students to sing Saraswati Vandana and Vande Matram and you see nothing wrong with it. God you are just so Bright and Secular, you want India to follow France’s way or Australia’s way but limit all that to Muslims. And you call SIMI terrorist for not following secularism and Indian constitution. Did you know that Indian Constitution prevents the state from doing any such thing i.e forcing students to sing Sarswati Vandana. 😉

  134. Arnie Says “Have you worked in government offices? Do you know the meaning of being a government servant? – you are expected to respect all the National symbols – which includes the ‘National Song’”

    Well the national symbols are not secular then. It was for this sole reason that Vande Matram was not made national anthem of India.

  135. SS, Our first President Dr. Rajendra Prasad who decided JanaGanaMana as our National Anthem :-

    “The composition consisting of the words and music known as Jana Gana Mana is the National Anthem of India, subject to such alterations in the words as the Government may authorise as occasion arises; and the song Vande Mataram, which has played a historic part in the struggle for Indian freedom, shall be honoured equally with Jana Gana Mana and shall have equal status with it. (Applause). I hope this will satisfy the Members. ”

    Needless to say, there was some controversy over the issue and some objection by some muslims over Vande Matram and hence Dr. Prasad decided in favor of ‘Jana Gana’.

  136. ” @ sanjay: First you said there is no Hero depiction and not change the tune to “it was for his defence against External aggression”. LoL @External Aggression ?? Are you saying that Punjab,Kashmir etc were not part of India ?”

    er..it is ‘external’ to parithviraj’s state. It is his defence of external agression which is being heroically extolled by this poet !! duh ? I’m still at a loss as to how a ‘court poet’s’ praise of his king amounts to ‘glorification’ of history !!

    The problem with our ‘muslim’ leaders is their ability to come up with stupid issues – objection to Vande Mataram is one of them. I attended a jesuit school- they had only a chapel there. But hindu students did not make an issue of having a temple there as well.

    So you can’t be secular when it suits you and ask for ‘benefits to minority institutions’ at other time.

    Similarly the great muslim leader’s claim of ‘muslim objection’ to comparing a country with ‘hindu god’s’ is nonsensical. Vandemataram was made a national song because of it’s historical context – therefore it is a secular symbol.
    I have heared these stupid stories about how ‘Jana Gana Mana’ is a paen to the Queen of England !! So are we supposed to start jumping up and down?

    Here is the literal translation of ‘Jana Gana Mana’. Is ‘Thou’ the Queen of England?

    Thou art the ruler of the minds of all people,
    dispenser of India’s destiny.
    Thy name rouses the hearts of Punjab, Sindh, Gujarat, the Maratha country,
    in the Dravida country, Utkala (Orissa) and Bengal;
    It echoes in the hills of the Vindhyas and Himalayas,
    it mingles in the rhapsodies of the pure waters Jamuna and the Ganges.
    They chant only thy name,
    they seek only thy blessings,
    They sing only thy praise.
    The saving of all people waits in thy hand,
    thou dispenser of India’s destiny.
    Victory, victory, victory to thee.

    OTOH – the problems confronting the muslims are daunting – lack of education, poverty, unemployment, growing intolerance – and what issues do these leaders and ‘spokesmen’ have? – oh don’t make us sing vande-mataram, oh don’t name a film ‘Mustafa’, oh ban ‘lajja’. And it is these events which are being applauded by you.

    So if SIMI had suggested that our greatest ‘mujahadin’ is Abdul Kalam or Azim Premji instead of Osama Bin Laden – we would have known the intentions of these parties – both towards their own community and towards India.

    But know according to you muslims have problems because we don’t teach people enough about Mohammed Bin Tughlaq.

  137. @ Sanjay: “In 1857, Mangal Pandey revolted against the British because he was made to use a bullet catridge that used cow fat. MP is a martyr in our history for standing upto his religion.”

    It still doesn’t answer my question. Which is:

    “let us take the logic further – if muslims find that their religion tells them to kill kafirs – who are we to stop them?”

    Will you consider SIMIans as being “martyr in our history for standing up to their religion” ?

  138. Arnie Says :- ““let us take the logic further – if muslims find that their religion tells them to kill kafirs – who are we to stop them?”

    Taking someone’s life is a CRIMINAL ACT, Singing Vande Matram is part of ‘Freedom of Expression’. Only a twisted person like you can equate these two.

  139. Arnie Says :- Will you consider SIMIans as being “martyr in our history for standing up to their religion” ?

    If the govt. executes a SIMIan for not singing Vande Matram, then yes, I would consider that person as a martyr for standing upto his belief.

  140. Arnie Says :- “I have heared these stupid stories about how ‘Jana Gana Mana’ is a paen to the Queen of England !! So are we supposed to start jumping up and down?”

    Only people that jump up and down on JanaGanaMana are Hindu fanatics and keep pressing for VandeMatram be renamed as our National Anthem. Here is some facts for the misinformed. :-

    http://www.countercurrents.org/comm-chatterjee310803.htm

    In a letter to Pulin Behari Sen,
    Tagore later wrote, “A certain high official in His Majesty’s
    service, who was also my friend, had requested that I write
    a song of felicitation towards the Emperor. The request simply
    amazed me. It caused a great stir in my heart. In response
    to that great mental turmoil, I pronounced the victory in
    Jana Gana Mana of that Bhagya Vidhata of India who has
    from age after age held steadfast the reins of India’s
    chariot through rise and fall, through the straight path
    and the curved. That Lord of Destiny, that Reader of the
    Collective Mind of India, that Perennial Guide, could never
    be George V, George VI, or any other George. Even my
    official friend understood this about the song. After all,
    even if his admiration for the crown was excessive, he
    was not lacking in simple common sense.”

  141. Arnie Says “The problem with our ‘muslim’ leaders is their ability to come up with stupid issues – objection to Vande Mataram is one of them. I attended a jesuit school- they had only a chapel there. But hindu students did not make an issue of having a temple there as well.”

    You still dont get it, do you ?? Jesuit School is not run by the state, it is a missionary private school and they can do whatever they want. Whereas a school owned by state cant force Vande Matram abd Sarswati Vandans down someone’s throat. It is unconstitutional in a secular country.

  142. “Only people that jump up and down on JanaGanaMana are Hindu fanatics and keep pressing for VandeMatram be renamed as our National Anthem.”

    Thank you – but nobody is misinformed here. I find it strange that when somebody opposes ‘jana gana mana’ he is a ‘hindu fanatic’, but when somebody opposes ‘Vande Mataram’ – he/she is exercising ‘freedom of expression’. Interesting apology for islamic fundamentalists. It is only a set of people who never fought for Indian independence – who would have opposed Vande Mataram.

    “If the govt. executes a SIMIan for not singing Vande Matram, then yes, I would consider that person as a martyr for standing upto his belief.”

    Unfortunately – as we know it is the SIMIans who are doing all the murders and executions !! So let us not twist facts here. Let us not look at a hypothetical world of governments executing people for not singing a song and look at factual world of islamists slitting throats of non-islamists in iraq while reciting the koran.

    “You still dont get it, do you ?? Jesuit School is not run by the state, it is a missionary private school and they can do whatever they want.”

    No they can’t – secularism is the law of the land

  143. Arnie Says “Thank you – but nobody is misinformed here. I find it strange that when somebody opposes ‘jana gana mana’ he is a ‘hindu fanatic’, but when somebody opposes ‘Vande Mataram’ – he/she is exercising ‘freedom of expression’. Interesting apology for islamic fundamentalists. It is only a set of people who never fought for Indian independence – who would have opposed Vande Mataram.”

    As usual, you keep beating your own drum. Hindu fanatics want Jana Gana replaced with VM because they know that Muslims oppsose certain parts of it. If India is a secular country then why enforce Singing Sarswati Vandana and Ma Durga bhajans in Schools ?

    Besides, Muslim leaders are on record saying that they dont have a problem with the First Stanza of VM but only with the part where it is about Maa Durga etc.

    And Dont patronize Indian Freedom Struggle, Muslims were as as much part of it as Hindus.

  144. Arnie Says :- “Let us not look at a hypothetical world of governments executing people for not singing a song and look at factual world of islamists slitting throats of non-islamists in iraq while reciting the koran.”

    You are the one who started the Hypothetical statements when you said :-““let us take the logic further – if muslims find that their religion tells them to kill kafirs – who are we to stop them?”

    Now dont chicken out and run away. Also Last time I checked IRAQ was in Middle East and SIMI was in India. But what do I know, you are the informed one here.

  145. “Yes they can. Get your facts right. Secularism isn’t a LAW.”

    Check the preamble of our constitution. Weren’t we talking about France the other day? Let us not define ‘secularism’ the way India defines it.

    If some schools enforce ‘saraswati vandana’ (which is different from Vande Mataram – a freedom hymn), is much like muslim madarassas enforcing studying of the koran.

    “Now dont chicken out and run away. Also Last time I checked IRAQ was in Middle East and SIMI was in India.”

    sure – but both the Zarquavi gang (in Iraq) and SIMIans (in India) are followeres of Osama-bin-Laden. SIMIans haven’t been slitting throats because they haven’t had the opportunity – not because they don’t want to. Why wouldn’t they want to emulate the “brave Mujahid” – Osama, who has specifically asked for jehad against hindus, if they get the chance.
    Tsk Tsk – can’t think laterally can you ? 🙂

    Incidentally has “killing kafirs” been a hypothetical question in islam historically ?

  146. “And Dont patronize Indian Freedom Struggle, Muslims were as as much part of it as Hindus.”

    You are the one that is insulting the Indian muslims by claiming all of them follow your ideology. SIMI is a terrorist rganisation and is NOT representative of the Indian muslim.

    similarly any muslim who would have joined in the Indian freedom struggle (as opposed to Paki freedom struggle), would never have opposed Vande Mataram.

    Let us not take sad excuses for Indian muslims like Shahbuddin and Imam Bukhari and denigrate the entire community.

  147. “Hindu fanatics want Jana Gana replaced with VM because they know that Muslims oppsose certain parts of it.”

    This is a hilarious argument. The perpetrator is portrayed as a victim. I suppose one can conjure up a similar defence of SIMI. Something like – Hindu’s want to enforce secularism because they know SIMI is opposed to it !!

  148. Arnie “Check the preamble of our constitution. Weren’t we talking about France the other day? Let us not define ’secularism’ the way India defines it.”

    Are you saying that France doesn’t have private catholic schools ?

    From Dictionary.com :-

    sec·u·lar·ism ( P ) Pronunciation Key (sky-l-rzm)
    n.

    Religious skepticism or indifference.
    The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education

    The operative word there is ‘PUBLIC’. Now Please let me hear you define the secularism the way you want to.

  149. Arnie Says :- “The perpetrator is portrayed as a victim. I suppose one can conjure up a similar defence of SIMI. Something like – Hindu’s want to enforce secularism because they know SIMI is opposed to it !! ”

    Completly trust you to put words in others mouth. How is forcing people to sing VandeMatram which(despite your repeated denials) clearly mentions Maa Durga etc is enforcing Secularism ??

  150. Arnie Says “Incidentally has “killing kafirs” been a hypothetical question in islam historically ? ”

    You are an ignorant of HIGHEST Order.

    http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1123996015760&pagename=IslamOnline-English-AAbout_Islam/AskAboutIslamE/AskAboutIslamE

    As for your second question about who is the kaafir, let me elaborate here.
    The word kaafir is one of the most misunderstood terms in the Arabic language. In fact, it need not have the stigma that is often associated with it. It can be used simply in the sense of ‘non-submissive’ to God.

    The word kaafir comes from the root verb, kafara, which means ‘cover’. It was originally used before Islam, in the Arabic language, to describe farmers, when they bury a seed in the ground and cover it with soil in their planting process. Therefore, we may say that the word kaafir implies from its root meaning ‘a person who hides or covers the truth’. This is in opposition to a Muslim, who openly testifies to the truth and submits willfully and peacefully to it. In Islamic parlance, it is used to mean someone who deliberately rejects the true faith.

    We should avoid calling anybody a kaafir, because only Allah knows who is truly a rejecter of truth and who is merely a misguided person. It is not up to us to “sentence” a person to the wrath of God! We must always maintain a spirit of tolerance and goodwill, along with our zeal to convey the message of truth to others, whatever be the odds!!

  151. Arnie Says “Let us not define ’secularism’ the way India defines it.”

    So how do you want to define it ? The way it is defined by France ? Are you suggesting that we should abandon our own constitution ans start following the One in vogue in FRANCE ?

    Or may be you are suggesting that No Muslims should be allowed to wear Hijabs, Burqas in schools, no Sikhs should be allowed to wear Turban and Hindu’s shouldn’t be allowed to put a Tika on forehead ? Or is your secular tirade limited only to muslims ? what next, Ban Dhoti, Pajama and enforce a uniform dress code ? It sounds more like china than a secular democracy.

  152. Arnie Says “Check the preamble of our constitution.”

    Now what, is it your turn to learn Indian Constitution ? Here is it from your fav. Link :-

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_India#Preamble

    The preamble is not a part of the Constitution of India as it is not enforceable in a court of law. However, the Supreme Court has, in the case of ‘Kesavananda Bharati v. State of Kerala’, recognized that the Preamble is a part of the Constitution and may be used to interpret ambiguous areas of the Constitution where differing interpretations present themselves. However, the Preamble is useful as an interpretive tool only if there is an ambiguity in the article itself and should not be treated as a rights bestowing part of the Constitution.

    In any case it is the same Preamble that says “LIBERTY of thought, expression, belief, faith and worship”

    It is the same constitution that says :-

    “Every person has the right to preach, practise and propagate any religion they choose. The government must not favour or discriminate against any religion. It must treat all religions with equal respect. All citizens, irrespective of their religious beliefs are equal in the eyes of law. No religious instruction is imparted in government or government-aided schools”

  153. Arnie Says “Let us not take sad excuses for Indian muslims like Shahbuddin and Imam Bukhari and denigrate the entire community”

    Please !! I personally think that both are much better than the like of Advani, Modi, Katiyar, singhal, Todadiya, Thackeray, Joshi, Vajpayee etc. They may not say right things all the time but still they are better than your hero Hindutva radical elements.

  154. Sanjay – you know what, I tried reading some of your posts here…if not for your hindu sounding nick, you come across as a rabid Islamic fundamentalist.

    I am touched by your faith in SIMI. Are you Shahi Imam’s love child by any chance ?

    “I can say with authority that it is not any Muslim but the Shiv Sena, the RSS and the Vishwa Hindu Parishad who are responsible for the serial blasts in Mumbai”, said your dad, Imam Syed Ahmed Bukhari at a gathering at the Jama Masjid.

    He went on and boasted to a thunderous applaus from the faithful that “We were rulers here for 800 years. Inshaallah, we shall return to power here once again!”

    http://www.rediff.com/news/2006/jul/24flip.htm

    Just today here in Seattle, one of your brothers went on a shooting spree on a jewish gathering. Killed one pregant woman and injured 4 others. Said he didn’t like jews too much, before he started firing away.

  155. @ Sanjay:”The preamble is not a part of the Constitution of India as it is not enforceable in a court of law. However, the Supreme Court has, in the case of ‘Kesavananda Bharati v. State of Kerala’, recognized that the Preamble is a part of the Constitution”

    You are a pretty clueless clod aren’t you? I really don’t understand your posts – you give a quote which says that the Supreme Court recognises the preamble as part of the constitution – and somehow this proves your point.

    I’m glad your mask is off when you showed your support to Bukhari and his ilk. Tagodia etc. are crminals – but they are not traitors.

    Why are you creating strawmen ? who has denied anybody the right to propoagate religion ? You started with an assertion of let’s not compare a theocratic country like pakistan to a secular country like India. Then you said – I don’t care if SIMI want’s an islamic india because secularism is not a law !!

    Secularism essentially means that all religion is treated as equal before the law. It does NOT give the right for certain communities to bring in religion into each and every issue to gain brownie points. Denigrating the national song of India is one such issue. (Haj subsidy is another one – but that is another story) Get it inside your stupid brain that ‘Vande Mataram’ is the national song of India. If you are an Indian – you sing it. No exemtions allowed.

    It takes a particularly moronic islamic fundamentalist like you to see yourself as a victim everywhere ! Just because I don’t support SIMIans – my heroes must be Togadia as well !!

    Similarly – please stop giving us lessons in etymology. Who cares what the root of the word ‘kafir’ is !! We are more interested in how the fundamentalists (like SIMIs hero Osama uses it – to define them as enemies of islam).

    I also crack up – when after every bomb blast carried out by these fundo’s, people rush out and claim this is ‘anti-islamic’ and islam is a religion of peace !!

    Thanks a lot !! That is going to help us sleep better.

    Your argument about “Public” and “Private” institutions is specious. Private institutions have to operate within the boundries set by the Government of India. An Indian Madarassa for instance cannot teach it’s pupils the Pakistani national anthem under the plea that it is a “private” institution and recieves funds from Saudi Arabia. Incidentally the Govt. of India also funds some Madarassa’s.

  156. @ Raj: I think we can file imam Bukhari’s statement’s in the : “They may not say the right things but are much better than Hindutva radicals” folder 🙂

  157. I think Tavleen singh made the right observation about the “Sanjay’s” of India, when she remarked –

    http://www.indianexpress.com/sunday/story/9089.html

    “When President Bush came to India, thousands and thousands of Mumbai’s Muslims took to the streets to protest against his visit. Now, whatever objections we might have to the American President’s role in West Asia, from an Indian viewpoint he has been terrific. In any case, what is interesting is why it is so easy to get hundreds of thousands of Muslims on to the streets against cartoons they have never seen and an American president, and so hard to get them out when 200 citizens of their city are killed for nothing.”

  158. Sanjay said (in another discussion): “… It’s just that I like muslims(not the extremist kind though) a little more.”

    This is a very interesting comment. Considering you have shown your love for SIMI, Bukhari and Shahbuddin (In fact you have compared an ex-PM of India unfavourably to the last 2), I’m really keen on knowing your definition of the “extremist kind” of Muslim. Or does such a creature exist only in Lebanon ?

  159. Arnie says “you give a quote which says that the Supreme Court recognises the preamble as part of the constitution – and somehow this proves your point”

    The keyword there was ‘ambiguity’ which I knew you would ignore and skip.

  160. Arnie Says “This is a very interesting comment. Considering you have shown your love for SIMI, Bukhari and Shahbuddin (In fact you have compared an ex-PM of India unfavourably to the last 2), I’m really keen on knowing your definition of the “extremist kind” of Muslim. Or does such a creature exist only in Lebanon ? ”

    How many temples have Imam Bukhari and Syed Shabuddin demolished as opposed to Mr. Vajpayee’s party demolishing a mosque in a secular India. Is it the same Vajpayee who just after the Gujrat Massacre of Muslims blamed Muslims for the violence. In Goa he said “wherever Muslims are, they do not want to stay peacefully.” If the same statement were made by Imam Bukhari, you would be crying that he is such an anti-national anti-hindu.

    Speaking of Bukhari – Did you know that Bukhari publicly asked muslims to vote for BJP in 2004 elections ? So If Bukhari is anti-national then what does that make Mr. Vajpayee for seeking/getting his support ?

    TBF, Vajpayee was a meak, drunkard PM and I am so embarrassed that he became our PM. When our soldiers where deing in Kargil, he and his ministers were planning to make more money by taking commission. This is the same guy from the same party whose party president was caught taking commission (dalali) in some gun deal. So much for patriotism. Vajpayee was PM when his minister escorted that terrorist Masood Azhar to Kandhar with millions of Dollars.

  161. Arnie says ““When President Bush came to India, thousands and thousands of Mumbai’s Muslims took to the streets to protest against his visit. Now, whatever objections we might have to the American President’s role in West Asia, from an Indian viewpoint he has been terrific. In any case, what is interesting is why it is so easy to get hundreds of thousands of Muslims on to the streets against cartoons they have never seen and an American president, and so hard to get them out when 200 citizens of their city are killed for nothing.” ”

    Does Tavleen Singh know that why it is so easy to get 100s of thousand of Hindus to demolish a mosque in India ?

    And India is a democratic country, people have the right to protest whoever they want as long as it is peaceful. And It’s so sheepish to claim that Bush-Protest as Muslim-protests, when it was actually organized by Communist parties, SP, SFI etc in India.

  162. Arnie Says “Your argument about “Public” and “Private” institutions is specious. Private institutions have to operate within the boundries set by the Government of India. An Indian Madarassa for instance cannot teach it’s pupils the Pakistani national anthem under the plea that it is a “private” institution and recieves funds from Saudi Arabia. Incidentally the Govt. of India also funds some Madarassa’s.”

    I completely trust you to mis-represent fact and twist them. In anycase I refer you to the original statement where this argument started :- https://greatbong.net/2006/07/12/man-has-created-death/#comment-14590

    No one forced you to attend a catholic school, you went by choice there. Hence you had to adhere to whatever religious teaching they were imparting and you (or any other Hindu students )had no right to create issues with that. On the other hand If you went to a school that was run by the state, you have a right to protest against any religious teaching.

    And no Madrasa is teaching Pakistani national anthem, Whether madrasas receive fund from govt. doesn’t really matter. Most madrasas aren’t dependent of Govt. for funds anyway.

  163. Arnie says “Haj subsidy is another one – but that is another story”

    Boy you are really a mis-informed individual. You keep jumping from one topic to another and keep showing your ignorance. Do Muslims demand Haj subsidy ? Did you know that Muslims have to clear all debts before paying a visit to Mecca ? Or are you going to blame SIMI for our governments stupid policies ?

    Did you know that your so called enemy of India Syed Shahabuddin has for years been demanding that Haj subsidies should be phased out. Heck even Islamic states dont provide Haj subsidies to its citizen and in case you didn’t know – The Hindutva government of Vajpayee raised the subsidy during its tenure ?

    And since you are so critical of Haj subsidy, have you ever tried to find out how much money Indian government spends each year for Mansarovar and Amarnath yatras ? It is estimated that Govt. of India and UP spent about 200 Crores for last MahaKumbh in Allahabad. Let me guess , in your eyes all that is justified but a 20000 rs. subsidey that is kinda forced upon muslims is not justified, isn’t it ?

  164. Arnie says :- “Who cares what the root of the word ‘kafir’ is !! We are more interested in how the fundamentalists”

    My response was to this “:-“let us take the logic further – if muslims find that their religion tells them to kill kafirs – who are we to stop them?”

    The fact is that their religion doesn’t tell them to kill Kaffirs.

  165. Raj says “Sanjay – you know what, I tried reading some of your posts here…if not for your hindu sounding nick, you come across as a rabid Islamic fundamentalist.

    I am touched by your faith in SIMI. Are you Shahi Imam’s love child by any chance ? ”

    Only person that seems like the illegitimate Love child of Shahi Imam and Narendra Modi is you. It must have happened during the 2004 elections when Bukhari and BJP were sleeping together.

    As for my Hindu sounding nick – dont worry I dont have an identity crisis. Although it does seem that you have a problem with accepting that there are people who dont think as radically as yourself. No go and burn some muslims in the bakery and then bribe the witnesses. You will be safe in Hindutva India.

  166. Sanjay,

    Ahem.
    First,The protest against Bush might have been organized by the communists but they were primarily meant for the Muslim consumption. Oh, and btw, I agree that everyone has the right to protest peacefully. A certain protest in Lucknow was not exactly peaceful. No?

    The key point here is to avoid the communilization of foreign policy, not to let be driven by the communal agenda of the likes of Mulayam.

    Second, the Madarssas recieve government support, even their teacher salaries are paid by the government. I dont give a flying fug again as to what religious education they give as long as they are not funded by My money which of course is the tax payers money.

    Third, the government gives more than 200 crores as subsidies for Haj, and how gave you this idea that Muslims don’t demand it. I see nothing wrong with their demanding it but I see something wrong whn the government sponsors religious travel with my money. And yes, same would be true for any Hindu festival. The state ha sno buisness spending my money so people can believe in their foolish fairy tales.

    Fourth, the Babri Masjid demolition is done with and it was an inglorious chapter in our nation’s history. But WE CAN’T KEEP HARPING BACK TO IT. And btw, tavleen singh did not mobilize the Hindus, BJP did, They are not the same. Thank you.

    Anyway, my point is this since you claimed somewhere that you are the biggest supporter of Muslims in this blog:whatever that means.

    Tell me, and I want to know, if India had been a Muslim majority country would non-Muslims enjoyed equal rights? Why or why not? On what basis you draw your conclusions.

    best

  167. Sanjay,

    Since you are not exactly strong with facts and figures.

    The Haj subsidy is not 2000 per ”pooor” Muslim it is 18,447 rs per ”poor Muslims. A difference of 9 times.

    You also might see this report…

    http://www.hinduonnet.com/2004/01/12/stories/2004011202900300.htm

    and Yes, I do recognise that some sane voices in Muslim community do demand that th subsidy be scrapped.

    http://www.islamicvoice.com/august.98/editorial.htm

    Second, the government subsidy on Kumb mela is around 400 crores. Hindu temples generate far more funding and they are mostly controlled by the government for example, the richest Indian temple gets donations of around 150 crores.

    Also, kindly note, the government spends money on organizing and providing security for the event and not on sponsoring the travel. It provides the same service for example when it provides security to Jama Masjid.

  168. One must understand the mentality of rabid Islamic fanatics like Sanjay. Or maybe Sanjay is not an Islamic fanatic. Maybe he is just a typical Indian communist. They share a common goal with many Indian muslims. Destruction of what they consider to be an artificial entity called India. While Muslims want to create a ‘Greater Pakistan’ out of India, their communist allies would love the balkanization of India and reduction of India to Somalian levels of absolute poverty. Hence there exists a natural alliance between leftists and islamists. That is why you have people like Sanjay so vociferously rushing to the defence of Islamic fundamentalists and separatists.

    Let un begin by understanding SIMI, Student Islamic Movement of India.

    (Interestingly the following is written by a rabid communist, Yoginder Sikand)

    The SIMI Story >>

    Established in 1977 and banned by the Government of India in 2001, the SIMI’s vision of Islam derives from the voluminous writings of the Islamist ideologue, Sayyed Abul ‘Ala Maududi, founder of the Jama’at-i Islami. For Maududi, as for the SIMI, the mission of the Prophet Muhammad is seen principally as having been the struggle to establish true monotheism or tauhid. This is taken to mean not just the worship of the one God but also, and equally importantly, the rule of the one God. Political power, in other words, is seen as central to the Islamic mission. All man-made systems of law are condemned as ‘false’, even Satanic, and Muslims are reminded that unless they actively struggle to be ruled in accordance with the shari’ah their commitment to and faith in Islam is not complete and remains suspect. Struggling to establish the Islamic state, the Caliphate or khilafah seen as a duty binding on all Muslims, and one that the Muslims of India, despite being in a minority, must abide by. Muslims who are ‘comfortable living under an un-Islamic order’ are warned that they shall be consigned, rather uncharitably, to Hell.

    In the absence of the khilafah, the SIMI believes that Muslims cannot lead their lives fully in accordance with Islam. The khilafah is seen as a divinely ordained order and also as the only solution to the many problems of not just the Muslims alone but of all humankind. It is envisaged as a pan-Islamic polity, for all Muslims are said to belong to the same nation (qaum, millat). Islam, in the SIMI’s interpretation, does not recognize any national differences, and all Muslims are brothers to each other. Hence, they must be ruled by a single khalifa. Nationalism is seen as a false ‘idol’, and one devised by the non-Muslim ‘enemies of the faith’ to divide the Muslims and thereby weaken them. National, as well as racial, regional, linguistic and sectarian identities are seen as a sign of ‘ignorance’ (jahiliya), which is vehemently opposed to Islam, and represent major hurdles in the path of establishing the rule of a single khalifa over all Muslims.

    In line with the general Islamist understanding, the SIMI sees Islam as a ‘complete programme’, providing detailed instructions on all matters, from the most intimately personal to collective affairs such as the state and international relations. Thus, secularism, even in the form of state neutrality vis-à-vis religion or the separation of religion and state, is seen as inherently anti-Islamic, for to choose not to be ruled by God’s laws is a sign of rebelliousness against Him. Likewise, democracy is also condemned, for to be ruled by man-made laws instead of the shari’ah is tantamount to the unforgivable sin of shirk or associating partners with God. All ideologies and religions other than Islam are condemned as false and sinful (taghuti) and their adherents as ‘rebels against God’. All non-Muslims are branded together as kafirs, and no distinction is made among them. Muslims are exhorted to give up the ways of the ‘unbelievers’ and to inculcate an unrelenting hostility to ‘un-Islamic’ culture and to fully abide by the path of the Prophet. Because the ‘enemies of God’ are expected to show stiff resistance to Islam, violent jihad is to be waged, if need be, against those who put hurdles in the path of the struggle for establishing the khilafah. Islam thus comes to be seen as a militaristic political programme.

    This understanding of Islam and the SIMI’s methods of realizing its vision of the Islamic polity make no room for the particular context in which the SIMI operates, where Muslims are a relatively small and insecure minority. It is as if to contextualize the faith and that demands that it makes upon the faithful would be tantamount to cowardice, hypocrisy or deviation from Islam or even amount to apostasy. The fact that to actively and openly struggle for the establishment of an Islamic polity in the Indian context would certainly invite stiff opposition from other communities is recognized, but the trials and tribulations that this would mean for Muslims are, it is insisted, to be welcomed as a true test of their faith and commitment and to have always been the lot of the true believers, from the Prophet’s time onwards. As Shahid Badr Falahi, President of the SIMI, once put it, ‘The Qur’an itself says that the kafirs will naturally oppose the Muslims. If through any of our actions the kafirs are agitated this itself is a proof that what we are doing is right [.] We have deliberately adopted the policy of the Prophet in this regard. If this drives the enemies of Islam to anger we cannot help it’. An unflagging commitment to a combative and extreme understanding of the faith is thus seen as a sign of faithfulness to the Prophet, and for activists of the SIMI this is indeed a major source of the movement’s appeal, faced as they are with a sense of being completely besieged.

    The SIMI was floated by the Jama’at-i Islami Hind in the late 1970s. Although it was intended to work among Muslim students to create among them what it saw as ‘Islamic consciousness’ and to engage in peaceful missionary work among non-Muslim students, a succession of events occurred immediately after the founding of the organization that forced it to take an increasingly hard-line position. The young SIMI activists seem to have relished controversy and sensationalism, seeing it as an opportunity to present their vision of Islam as the ideal ‘solution’. Being free of the control of the more moderate and experienced older leaders of the Jama’at, whom they saw as effete and too moderate, the young leaders of the SIMI drifted in the direction of a growing radicalism. In 1979, less than two years after the SIMI was established, the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, Ayatollah Khomeini toppled the Shah of Iran and in Pakistan, the military dictator Zia ul-Haq set about imposing Islamic criminal laws by force. The
    SIMI voiced its opposition to the Soviet invasion, welcomed the Iranian revolution, seeing it as the first step in the eventual global revival of Islam, and wholeheartedly supported Zia’s ‘Islamization’ policy. Gradually, as a result of events abroad and the consciousness of Muslims being an increasingly threatened community in India, the SIMI’s rhetoric grew combative and vitriolic, insisting that Islam alone was the ‘solution’ to the problems of not just the Muslims of India but of all Indians as such and, indeed, of the whole world.

  169. Now one must understand that SIMI is not an alien quantity, but an organised articulation of ideas that get preaches and taught in the numerous mosques and madrassas of India. One may ban SIMI, but the ideology of SIMI will always be in the hearts of many Indian muslims, because SIMI is only a creation of Islam, and the ideology of SIMI is seen by the faithful as being similar to the the ideology of Islam, in its truest and most widely accepted form, as per the Holy Quran.

  170. Confused Says “Sanjay,

    Since you are not exactly strong with facts and figures.

    The Haj subsidy is not 2000 per ‘’pooor’’ Muslim it is 18,447 rs per ‘’poor Muslims. A difference of 9 times.

    Please dont Hang me for missing out a ZERO. I meant to say 20,000 (BJP govt increased that amount by close to 900 Rs.) Also good that you said govt spent 400 crores on Kumbha or Mhakumbha, atleast it was more than what I said.

    In anycase the point is/was that the government does spend for Hindu religious activities.

  171. Confused says :- “Also, kindly note, the government spends money on organizing and providing security for the event and not on sponsoring the travel. It provides the same service for example when it provides security to Jama Masjid. ”

    Actually Indian govt is on record on this one in one of the parliamentary debates that govt has been giving indeirect subsidies for Amarnath Yatras. Minsiter of external Affairs in the parliaments :-

    “……I know for a fact what my State does during the Amarnath Yatra. The amount of money that is spent in indirect subsidy on Amarnath Yatra, I know. I spent three years studying in Mumbai in college. I know what arrangements the State Government makes for the various festivals, particularly when the statues of Ganapatiji are immersed in the ocean. Yes, there is a difference between direct subsidy and indirect subsidy….. ”

    http://164.100.24.208/debate/debtext.asp?slno=4214&ser=&smode=

  172. Confused says :- “Third, the government gives more than 200 crores as subsidies for Haj, and how gave you this idea that Muslims don’t demand it. I see nothing wrong with their demanding it but I see something wrong whn the government sponsors religious travel with my money. And yes, same would be true for any Hindu festival. The state ha sno buisness spending my money so people can believe in their foolish fairy tales.”

    Well I agree with all that but it is the government which is doing the wrong thing, not the community. Arnie and co. are somehow blaming Muslims for Government’s policies.

    BTW Here is one of the saner voice 😉 (although Arnie calls him enemy of India) from Muslim community who talks about Haj subsidy :-

    http://www.milligazette.com/Archives/15092002/1509200242.htm

  173. Confused Says “Tell me, and I want to know, if India had been a Muslim majority country would non-Muslims enjoyed equal rights? Why or why not? On what basis you draw your conclusions.”

    May I ask you the reason why you raised the question ? The fact is that our forefathers had the opportunity to make India a theocratic Hindu state, but they chose not to do so and now that we made that choice, we better stick to it. We cant tell our minorities that hey you are treated much better than the treatment Hindus/Sikhs etc are getting in Pak, Bangladesh etc.

    Anyways to answer your question. NO. If India were a muslim majority country we probably would have ended up being theocratic states like Bangladesh and Pakistan where non-muslims would be treated as second class citizen both by the state and by the majority. I dont really know the exact reasons but knowing the way things go in muslim majority(or Islamic ) countries it seems the most likely situation.

  174. Ras Says :- “Sanjay, why are you people so anti-India ? ”

    LOL – I guess by ‘you People’ you mean Muslims and kinda insinuating that I am one.

    For some reason I found that funny, because you dont get a more pure Hindu Brahmin than me. 😉

  175. Dude,

    a. As I said there is a difference between making arrangments and sponsering travel. Oh, and btw, I don’t really buy this theory that subsidies areforced down upon them. I mean seriously, can you actually force anyonw to take subsidies? Currently we have an alleged secular government.

    anyway, this is side discussion. The main menu is this…

    No, I have no interest in living a Hindu state. I believe in secularism, of course the true kind where you have UCC and terrorists are treated like they should be without CM giving them VIP treatment. Anyway, I ask…

    So what is this about Islam which makes it so incompatiable with secularism? You said, if Muslims were in majority they would have treated non-Muslims as second class citizen. Why?

    Should not that make me very afraid of Muslims? And make me dislike their religion? Because utlimately something must be wrong with Islam…

  176. Sanjay Brahman : “For some reason I found that funny, because you dont get a more pure Hindu Brahmin than me”

    Thanks for letting us know your caste, though I didn’t ask for it. Bet you are proud of your twice born-ness.. I am a ‘backward caste’ hindu by the way. You think being a ‘pure’ brahmin is makes you a better hindu or more of a hindu, or confirms your ‘Indianess’, perhaps ?

    Far from it. It is hardly essential for one to be a muslim to be anti-India. In my previous post, I have raised the possibililty of you being either a muslim or a commie. Any person can be anti-national depending on his specific individual traits or reasons. But when communists and islamists are anti-India, they are merely being true to their ideology or religion.

    Indian leftists have been traditionally and historically as anti-India as many Indian muslims, if not more. And interestingly enough, leaders of all communist parties in India, past and present have been pure 100% hindu brahmins. And these people have always taken pride in being both anti-hindu and anti-India.

  177. But is it not fascinating how fast Indian leftists jump to the defence of Islam ? I mean ..these people are kufr by ideology, and yet in carrying forward the word of the Prophet, they are more muslim than even the muslims. Guess it is the ‘enemy of the enemy is a friend’ principle at work. It is a natutal alliance which extends far beyond India. Indeed a strong global alliance is what they have got, the Islamists and Leftists.

  178. Sanjay,

    Two further small points.

    First, I don’t believe that we should treat our minorties by the yardstick Pakistan or the Islamic world treats theirs. I hold my country to much higher standards.My question was more fundamental and I shall await your reply to that.

    Second, why this clarfication about your ahem ”pure brahmin caste.” Notionally I was born as a brahmin too, how does that make me or you superior to say RS or anyone else?

    Though I am not surprised, your sticking to your caste identity, is quite in conformity with your pseudo-liberal outlook.

    best

  179. Confused – You dont know me to make any kind of conclusions about me. Did I say I was superior to anyone ?Incase you missed, That Casste thing was said Tongue-in-cheek, basically in response to Raj’s insinuation that I was a Muslim. Once you get to know me better you can decide if I am a Brahmin or Shudra by Karma.

    And it’s funny that you accuse me of pseudo-Liberalism for making a tongue-in-cheek statement then go on and declare your own caste.

    And Raj – I am neither a Muslim nor a Commie. If there is one political party in India that I want to go away, then it is the Communists.

  180. Sanjay,

    errr… I said notionally and pliss to remember I am an atheist, so the question of me believing in the caste syste does not arise.

    But anyway, lets keep this trivial discussion out of it.

    And get back to the main topic. You did not answer what I asked .

    If somehow you missed it, here it is.

    ”So what is this about Islam which makes it so incompatiable with secularism? You said, if Muslims were in majority they would have treated non-Muslims as second class citizen. Why?

    Should not that make me very afraid of Muslims? And make me dislike their religion? Because utlimately something must be wrong with Islam…”

    kindly explain.

  181. Confused Says ‘’So what is this about Islam which makes it so incompatiable with secularism? You said, if Muslims were in majority they would have treated non-Muslims as second class citizen. Why?

    Should not that make me very afraid of Muslims? And make me dislike their religion? Because utlimately something must be wrong with Islam…’’

    You call yourself atheist and yet single out Islam for being incompatible with Secularism. I personal think of you as a Hindu Atheist.

    Anyways, The problem is not with Islam, but with the state, illitracy, history of Hindu-muslims in the region and the mistrust between them. The problem is Today’s India is not completly secular, It’s secular the Hindu way. The problem is in our minds, we were fed again and again that Muslims are Red Ants which bite and Hindus are black ants which dont.

    Whether Islam is compatible with secularism, well All you need to do is look towards South East Asia to know that.

  182. Sanjay,

    tch tch. Forget Hindu Muslim, forget frigging India. Forget me.

    You said:

    ”If India were a muslim majority country we probably would have ended up being theocratic states like Bangladesh and Pakistan where non-muslims would be treated as second class citizen both by the state and by the majority. I dont really know the exact reasons but knowing the way things go in muslim majority(or Islamic ) countries it seems the most likely situation.”

    That is what you said. So as a non-Muslim, whether I am Hindu or atheist is immaterial, the clinching point is that I am a Non-Muslim. Should not I be afraid of living in a Muslim majority state?

    Kindly note, you said, non-Muslims would be treated as second class citizens both by the state and the majority. Interalia, you recognise that a Muslim majority state will not be a secular state and will not give its non-Mislim citizens equal rights.

    Why? If its not the problem with religion, fine, then what is the problem?

    To make it easier for you, assume that state has no Hindus, only muslims and a minority of say Chritians.

  183. And a seperate question…

    ”The problem is Today’s India is not completly secular, It’s secular the Hindu way.”

    Care to elaborate. How? Which laws you refer to? Which constitutional provisions? How can we make secular ahem your way? Since you made that remark, you must know what the problem is.

    Kindly tell.

  184. Sanjay,

    And you need to look at middle east(or our neigbour) for a contrary view.

    Problem with India is that secularism is more or less trivial in Indic civilization, but is overrated in modern republic.

    I can not even guess what were you fed, for reference you can contrast CBSE syllabus with Pakistani syllabus.

    PS Just to puncture your delusions about SE Asia.

    Malaysia here and here

    Indonesia here and here

  185. Confused Says “Care to elaborate. How? Which laws you refer to? Which constitutional provisions? How can we make secular ahem your way? Since you made that remark, you must know what the problem is.”

    I notice a hint of Sarcasm in ‘your way’ as if everything is Hunky-dory with our secularism and the problem is only because of Muslims. If Muslims are problems then why do we have problems with Sikhs and Christians ?

    I have great respect for our constitution and for those who wrote it, they certainly had great vision and were great secularist. Incase you didn’t get it, the problem is not with constitution but with our politics which uses minoroties as their pawns to attain power.

    The problem is with our system where perpetators of Sikh massacre in 84, december 6 1992, Gujrat massacre etc move freely in the country, yet SIMI is banned at mere suspicion. The problem is with the double standards where Rithambharas are continued to be called Sadhvis despite spewing venom against Muslims whereas Shahabuddin’s are called enemies of India for standing up to his religion. Nirankaris are called Sants, Indira Gandhi a martyr whereas Bhindrawale is a terrorist.

  186. Gaurav Says “PS Just to puncture your delusions about SE Asia.Malaysia here and here, Indonesia here and here ”

    And your point is ?? Are you suggesting that minorities in Indonesia/Malaysia are treated as 2nd class citizens ?

  187. For such an avid Islamophile, Sanjay Brahman seems to have very little knowledge and appreciation for the true nature of Islam.

    As I explained earlier ‘secularism’ , even in the form of state neutrality vis-à-vis religion or the separation of religion and state, is seen as inherently anti-Islamic, for to choose not to be ruled by God’s laws is a sign of rebelliousness against Him. Likewise, democracy is also condemned, for to be ruled by man-made laws instead of the shari’ah is tantamount to the unforgivable sin of shirk or associating partners with God. All ideologies and religions other than Islam are condemned as false and sinful (taghuti) and their adherents as ‘rebels against God’. All non-Muslims are branded together as kafirs, and no distinction is made among them. Muslims are exhorted to give up the ways of the ‘unbelievers’ and to inculcate an unrelenting hostility to ‘un-Islamic’ culture and to fully abide by the path of the Prophet. Because the ‘enemies of God’ are expected to show stiff resistance to Islam, violent jihad is to be waged, if need be, against those who put hurdles in the path of the struggle for establishing the khilafah. Islam thus comes to be seen as a militaristic political programme.

    Now you know Islam is inherently anti-secularism. Fine. What about ‘nationalism’ ? What does Islam have to say about the principle of ‘nationalism’ ? Would it be un-Islamic for a muslim to be patriotic towards a country like India, in its present form ? Yes. Let me explain why.

    All man-made systems of law are condemned as ‘false’, even Satanic, and Muslims are reminded that unless they actively struggle to be ruled in accordance with the shari’ah their commitment to and faith in Islam is not complete and remains suspect. Struggling to establish the Islamic state, the Caliphate or khilafah seen as a duty binding on all Muslims, and one that the Muslims of India, despite being in a minority, must abide by. Muslims who are ‘comfortable living under an un-Islamic order’ are warned that they shall be consigned, rather uncharitably, to Hell.

    In the absence of the khilafah, the SIMI believes that Muslims cannot lead their lives fully in accordance with Islam. The khilafah is seen as a divinely ordained order and also as the only solution to the many problems of not just the Muslims alone but of all humankind. It is envisaged as a pan-Islamic polity, for all Muslims are said to belong to the same nation (qaum, millat). Islam, in the SIMI’s interpretation, does not recognize any national differences, and all Muslims are brothers to each other. Hence, they must be ruled by a single khalifa. Nationalism is seen as a false ‘idol’, and one devised by the non-Muslim ‘enemies of the faith’ to divide the Muslims and thereby weaken them. National, as well as racial, regional, linguistic and sectarian identities are seen as a sign of ‘ignorance’ (jahiliya), which is vehemently opposed to Islam, and represent major hurdles in the path of establishing the rule of a single khalifa over all Muslims.

  188. Sanjay,

    My previous comment is still in moderation. So we shall wait for it to be cleared by GB. Ok, let me try a repost.

    Sanjay,

    tch tch. Forget Hindu Muslim, forget frigging India. Forget me.

    You said:

    ‘’If India were a muslim majority country we probably would have ended up being theocratic states like Bangladesh and Pakistan where non-muslims would be treated as second class citizen both by the state and by the majority. I dont really know the exact reasons but knowing the way things go in muslim majority(or Islamic ) countries it seems the most likely situation.’’

    That is what you said. So as a non-Muslim, whether I am Hindu or atheist is immaterial, the clinching point is that I am a Non-Muslim. Should not I be afraid of living in a Muslim majority state?

    Kindly note, you said, non-Muslims would be treated as second class citizens both by the state and the majority. Interalia, you recognise that a Muslim majority state will not be a secular state and will not give its non-Mislim citizens equal rights.

    Why? If its not the problem with religion, fine, then what is the problem?

    To make it easier for you, assume that state has no Hindus, only muslims and a minority of say Chritians.

  189. SIMI articulates Islam at its truest and purest, which is strictly anti-secularism, anti-nationalism. Which puts it at odds with the Indian constitution and the Indian nation. A muslim who follows Islam in its truest form, is required by his religion to have nothing but hatred in his heart for a country like India.

  190. Gaurav Says “And you need to look at middle east(or our neigbour) for a contrary view.”

    Why should I look at what is possibly the worst example of Islam ? Besides there is Turkey in the ME, isn’t it ?

  191. Gaurav Says “I can not even guess what were you fed, for reference you can contrast CBSE syllabus with Pakistani syllabus.”

    Oh sure go and cpmpare it, but remember one thing they are theocratic state we are secular and both by choice. So that’s not a fair comparison. But the way MM Joshi was working on our CBSE syllabus, we probably would have been worse.

    If at all you want to compare Indian text books, compare it to other secular countries.

  192. Sanjay,

    My prvious comment is in moderation. So we shall deal with the second issue.

    You said.

    ”Incase you didn’t get it, the problem is not with constitution but with our politics which uses minoroties as their pawns to attain power.”

    I agree and who does that? Since the Muslims don’t vote for BJP, who uses them as pawn? And for excpt 6 years of BJP rule which was really NDA rule we have been governed by secularists, so who is to blame?

    Now let us look at the second argument.

    ”The problem is with our system where perpetators of Sikh massacre in 84, december 6 1992, Gujrat massacre etc move freely in the country, yet SIMI is banned at mere suspicion. The problem is with the double standards where Rithambharas are continued to be called Sadhvis despite spewing venom against Muslims whereas Shahabuddin’s are called enemies of India for standing up to his religion. Nirankaris are called Sants, Indira Gandhi a martyr whereas Bhindrawale is a terrorist”

    Now now, we should called Indira Gandhi a terrorist too? Interesting moral equvialency you strive for!

    yes, of course we should punish people responsible for riots. And sadly the state has lacked in it. But I will say this, atleast with the intervention of the SC, some of the perpetuators of the Gujarat riots have been punished. Nanavati commision is doing some good work, only yesterday they orderd for call phone records which should hopefully expose the role of BJP leaders and police officers. Of course nothing will happen in 1984 case because some of those are in the central ministry now.

    Let us examine your other arguments, if I may call them so. SIMI is banned on mere suspicion. Hmmmm, says who? The GOI’s own investigative agencies have clearly said that SIMI is involved in terrorist attacks, and that is why it has bee banned. Btw, please to remember, Mulayam our secular hero gave them a clean chit. Who else has been banned on mere suspicion? Let perhaps?

    Rithambara is called a a sadhvi, by whom? By the central government? If some people want to call her…thats not business of the state. Or then we should lock all those who call Bukhari a Maulana because he recently discovered that RSS was responsible for Mumbai blasts.

    Dude, if you chose to close your eyes to militant Islam, the fault is yours. If you chose to do that, could you tell me who has caused so much violence in Kashmir, who has caused the ethnic cleansing of Hindus from Kashmir, who is respoinsbile for hundreds of deaths all over the country in the bomb blasts?

    Dude, don’t take it wrongly, but we dont want the rest of the country to become what Bihar did under Laloo yadav, a lawless backward state which chief export was cheap labor.

  193. The significance of muslim organisations such as SIMI is that they articulate and excecute the true meaning of Islam. Islam in its truest form abhors the concept of nationalism and secularism, and particularly hates a country like India where the idol worshipping polytheist kufr have full freedom to practise their faith, dominate society and polity, and the faithfuls are in a minority. India is Dar-Ul-Harb.A Moslem in a Dar-Ul-Harb has two choices: a. Embark upon Jehad and convert Dar-Ul-Harb into Dar-Ul-Islam or b. If unsuccessful in above, migrate to a safer territory.

    Many Indian muslims have chosen a.

    So I am not sure one can call SIMI a terrorist organisation. They are merely staying true to their faith, staying true to their religion. When muslims plant bombs in our school buses, public places and trains, provide shelter and logistic support to brothers planning to attack our defence and nuclear installations, they are merely following their religion.

    Surely, India being secular country, we cannot stop our muslim citizens from following their religion, can we ? Otherwise it would place a major question mark on the validity of our secularism…

  194. Sanjay,

    heh. You should look at middle east because most of the Islamic world is there. Its like saying we wont look at Vatican when w want to look at the Pope!

    And Turkey dear friend is secular only because of its Army. Thrice since 1960 it has intervened and ”fired” elected Islamic governments. Thats not much of democracy, is it?

  195. Raj Says “…the Caliphate or khilafah seen as a duty binding on all Muslims, and one that the Muslims of India, despite being in a minority, must abide by….”

    Thank You for your insight on Caliphate, now did you know that our own Father of Nation (Gandhi Ji, incase you forgot) linked the demand for ‘Swaraj’ with the demand for ‘Caliphate’ in 1921 ?

  196. I agree with our friend Sanjay that India is not really a secular country and imposes severe restrictions on its muslim citizens from following their faith.

    For example, the Holy Quran is very clear about a few things, such as :

    * “Strike off their [infidel’s] heads. Strike off their finger-tips! … because they defied God and his Apostle [Muhammad].” (Sura 8:12-13)

    * “Make war on them [infidels] until idolatry shall cease and God’s religion shall reign supreme.” (Sura 2:193)

    * “Seize them and put them to death wherever you find them.” (Sura 4:89)

    * “Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you.” (Sura 9:123)

    * “When the sacred months [Ramadan] are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them; besiege them; and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent [convert to Islam] and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way.” (Sura 9:5)

    So if we are truly to be a secular country, it is imperative that we allow our muslim citizens full freedom to practise their faith, as per the truest teaching of the Holy Quran. With immediate effect we must release from our jails any jihadis (who we call ‘terrorists’) who have been suspected or convicted of killing the kufr, Because, killing the an idol worshipping polytheist kufr is hardly a criminal act as per the Quran, but indeed a duty every true muslim must aspire to, as the Quranic verses quoted above so unequivocally suggest. Infact the kufrs must be put behind bars if not beheaded for daring to defy Allah and continuing to worship their stone idols, which is ‘jaahil’.

  197. Sanjay,

    Yes, and Gandhi was wrong. He was pandering to the Muslim right there. Just because he is Gnadhi, its not that everything he did becomes automatically right. Infact, Gandhi being Gandhi, would have been the first to acknowledge that he commited mistakes.

  198. Sanjay : “Thank You for your insight on Caliphate, now did you know that our own Father of Nation (Gandhi Ji, incase you forgot) linked the demand for ‘Swaraj’ with the demand for ‘Caliphate’ in 1921 ?”

    Oh, yes, our Father of Nation..Mr.Gandhi… he was a sucker for the Khilafat, wasn’t he ? Among other things, he also pleaded with the jews to commit mass suicide rather than fight the Nazis, for he thought that was the best way to appeal to the conscience of Hitler and his Nazis. Father of our Nation also threatened to go on a fast unto death when a newly independent India refused to part with 1/3rd of its treasury to Pakistan, at precisely the time when Pakistan had attacked Kashmir and Indian troops were fighting to regain lost land.

    But indeed, Gandhi was a forceful advocate of Khilafat movement, wasn’t he ? Too bad the Khilafat movement of 1921 did not succeed. Muslims of India were really p!ssed when they realised that their version of Global Islamic Nation failed to take off from its roots. So what did they do ? Take it out on the hindus, of course.

    Here is a little history lesson. A long post. But please do read it.

    —-

    Moplah Rebellion – An OffShoot of the Khilafat Movement >>

    The Moplahs are a band of fanatic Muslims who have descended from the Arabs who settled in the Malabar Coast in about the 8th or 9th century A.D and married mostly Indian wives. They had over the years acquired an unenviable notoriety for crimes perpetuated under the impulse of religious frenzy. They were responsible for 35 minor outbreaks during the Brit rule, the most terrible being the one that took place in August 1921.

    During the early months of 1921, excitement spread speedily from mosque to mosque, village to village. The violent speeches of the Ali brothers, the early approach of Swaraj as foretold in the non-cooperating press, the July resolutions of the Khilafat Conference all added fuel to the fire. All through July and August Khilafat meetings were held in which the Karachi resolution was fervently endorsed. Knives, swords etc were secretly manufactured and preparations were made to the proclaim of the coming of the kingdom of Islam. On Aug 20, the District Magistrate of Calicut with the help of troops attempted to arrest certain leaders who were in the possession of arms at Tirurangadi, a severe encounter took place, which was the a signal for an immediate rebellion throughout the whole locality.

    Government property was destroyed. Europeans who did not succeed in escaping were murdered. As soon as the administration was paralyzed, the Moplahs declared that Swaraj had been established. A certain Ali Musliar was proclaimed Raja, Khilafat flags were flown, Ernad and Walluvanad were declared Khilafat kingdoms. The main brunt of the Moplah ferocity was borne, not by the govt but by the Hindus were constituted the majority of the population. Massacres, forcible conversions, desecration of temples, foul outrages upon woman were perpetuated freely till troops could arrive to restore order.

    By the end of 1921 the situation was under control. The govt. lost 43 troops with 126 wounded while the Moplahs lost 3,000 people. However, the Muslim leaders put the figure at 10,000 and refer to desecration of mosques, atrocities while suppressing the revolt. Outrages upon a large number of Hindus may be corroborated by independent testimony. It would suffice to refer to a few documents.

    1. A statement signed by the Secretary and Treasurer of the Kerala Provincial Congress Committee and Secretary Ernad Khilafat Committee and K.V.Gopala Menon refers to the misdeeds of the Moplahs. “Their wanton and unprovoked attack on the Hindus, the all but wholesale looting of their houses in Ernad etc, the forcible conversion of Hindus in the beginning of the rebellion and the wholesale conversion of those who stuck to their homes in later stages, the brutal murder of inoffensive Hindus without the slightest reason Except that they are Kafirs or belonged to the same religion as the policemen, who entered their Tangals or entered their mosques, burning of Hindu temples, the outrage on Hindu woman and their forcible conversion and marriage by the Moplahs”.

    2. A report dated Calicut, 7/9/1921 published in the Times of India and another dated 6/12/1921 published in the New India, give detailed accounts of the most horrible outrages on women which cannot be reproduced for the sake of decency.

    3. Sankaran Nair refers to cases of men who were skinned alive or made to dig their graves before being slaughtered. To read more about the atrocities go to page 362 of the History and Culture of the Indian People published by the Bharitya Vidya Bhavan vol 10.

    4. According to the Report of the Enquiry Committee of the Servants of India, the number of Hindus murdered was 1500, the number forcibly converted 20,000 and property looted Rs 3 crs.

    5. In a heart-rending petition to Lady Reading, wife of the Viceroy, the Hindu woman of Malabar stated “Your ladyship is doubtless aware that even though our unhappy district has witnessed many Moplah outbreaks in the last one hundred years, the present rebellion is unexampled in magnitude as well as unprecedented in ferocity, pregnant woman cut to pieces and left on the roadsides and in the jungles. We remember how driven out of our native hamlets we wandered, starving and naked, the jungles and forests”.

    6. To those who appealed to the Moplahs in the name of Gandhi they said, “Gandhi is a kafir, how can he be our leader?” So much for Gandhi’s Hindu Muslim unity.

    7. Said Mrs Annie Besant, “Malabar has taught what Islamic rule means and we do not want to see another specimen of Khilafat Raj in India”.

    The Congress leaders at first disbelieved these stories but the tales of hundreds of refugees landing at Calicut, a wave of horror spread among the Hindus who were not blinded by the new-fanged ideas of Hindu-Muslim unity at any cost. Gandhi himself spoke of the “brave God-fearing Moplahs who were fighting for what they considered as religion, and in a manner, which they considered as religious”. Little wonder those Khilafat leaders passed resolutions congratulating the Moplahs on the brave fight they were conducting for the sake of religion.

    When truth could not be suppressed any longer, and came out with all its naked hideousness, Gandhi tried to conciliate Hindu opinion by various explanations, denials and censure of the authorities which resulted in the following resolution passed by the Congress at Ahmedabad. “ The Congress expresses its firm conviction that the Moplah disturbance was not due to the Non-Cooperation or the Khilafat Movements, specially as preachers of these movements were denied access to the affected parts by the District authorities for six months before the disturbance, but is due to causes wholly unconnected with the two movements, and that the outbreak would not have occurred had the message of non-violence been allowed to reach them.

    Nevertheless the Congress deplores the acts done by certain Moplahs by way of forcible conversions and destruction of life and property, and is of the opinion that prolongation of the disturbance in Malabar could have been prevented by the Govt of Madras accepting the proffered assistance of Maulana Yakub Hassan and allowing Gandhi to proceed to Malabar, and is further of opinion that the treatment of Moplah prisoners as evidenced by the asphyxiation incident was an act of inhumanity unheard of in modern times and unworthy of a Government that calls itself civilized”.

    This resolution is unworthy of a great political organization, which claims to represent India and not any particular community. Its deliberate attempts to minimize the enormity of crimes by fanatic Moplahs upon thousands of hapless Hindus betrays a mentality which generally characteristised govt. communiqués whitewashing crimes perpetuated by officials upon Indians, and both should be strongly denied by an impartial critic. It is ridiculous to maintain that the Moplah rebellion was not due to the Khilafat or Non-cooperation movements in view of the Khilafat meetings that endorsed the Karachi resolution, proclamation of Khilafat kingdom, flags. The tone of the resolution seems apologetic and reminds me of the English media today who are quick to criticize the Hindu for any form of protest but ignore, underplay acts of violence, intolerance by the Muslims, Christians.

    Said Hazrat Mohani in his Presidential speech at the session of the Muslim League held at Ahmdebad on 30/12, “The Moplahs justify their action on the ground that at such a critical juncture, when they are engaged in a war against the English, their neighbors read Hindus not only did not help them or observe neutrality but aid and assisted the English in every way. When the Moplahs have left their houses, property and belongings, taken refuge in hills and jungles, it is unfair to characterize as plunder their commandeering of money and other necessaries for their troops from the English or their supporters”.

    In describing the Moplah action as a religious war against the Brits, Hazrarbhai regards it as a political movement, which cannot be disassociated from the Khilafat agitation. His justification of the Moplah atrocities is not only puerile in the extreme but is contrary to facts. He ignores that most of the looting of Hindu houses happened on 21, 22, 23 Augusts, before the military had arrived in the affected areas i.e. long before the Moplahs had taken to the jungles.

    At the annual session of the Khilafat Conference in 1923, Shaukat Ali, President of the session praised the Moplahs while conceding some Hindus had suffered at their hands, he said the while chapter was a closed book since they had a duty to the brave Moplahs. He announced that he and his brother Muhammad Ali would provide for the maintenance of one Moplah orphan. One looks in vain on the part of the Congress or Hindu leaders to help the victims of the Muslim outrage. May be they would be called communal if they had done so, their minds being so well conditioned by the Brits that helping fellow Hindus was a crime. There was a silver lining, however. The Arya Samajis through their Suddhi Movement converted over 2000 Hindus who had been converted to Islam by the Moplahs.

  199. The previous comment was by me. Please play close attention the the language used by Gandhi-ji, who one must not forget, is considered to be the father of our nation, to describe the actions of the good Moplah muslims of Malabar who in their quest for the Khilafat, tortured, raped, murdered many thousand idol worshipping kufr >>

    Gandhi-ji said “brave God-fearing Moplahs who were fighting for what they considered as religion, and in a manner, which they considered as religious”.

    Indeed. That is secularism in its truest form that India must aspire to. Gandhi was the ultimate secularist and since he is the father of our nation, we must not rest until and unless we raise our secularism to his high standards and expectations.

    So one must not condemn or punish SIMI or LeT for planting those bombs on th Mumbai train.We must aim for higher ideals. We must be secular. Truly secular, in the spirit of Gandhiji. And praise SIMI, LeT for they ‘were fighting for what they considered as religion, and in a manner, which they considered as religious’. We must allow our muslim brothers full freedom to practise their faith. Only then can we be called secular.

  200. Indeed. Sanjay , I read the article linked by you on the Moplah Rebellion. I take the liberty to post it right here, the whole thing…

    I request the folks here to read and compare the 2 articles, on the same subject. The first one is no doubt my communal hindooo fundooo version, which cannot be trusted, the second is straight from the highest citadels of secular history writing, which is the one you should be trusting, straight from the school of Pankaj Mishra, Romila Thapar, Arundhati Roy and Sandeep Pandey. And indeed, our own Gandhiji.

    —-

    Moplah Rebellion >>

    Story of Mujahid movement in Malabar goes back to the mid-1920s after the fall of Ottoman Empire and Khilafat in Turkey. In 1921, the Malabar Muslims, known as Moplahs, started a rebellion against the British raj that they treated as enemies of Islam. The British suppressed the agitation of Moplah Muslims in connivance with the Hindu landlords and deported some leaders of the rebellion to Andaman Islands. The leaderless mob had been floating aimlessly. In early 1940s, the Indian National Congress veterans like Late Mr. Abdurehiman, and even Mahatma Gandhi termed the rebellion as “Freedom Struggle.” But some myopic communal historians depicted it as an “anti-Hindu aggression,” quoting some isolated incidents from here and there in their apparent bid to give the Movement a communal hue.

    The Moplahs were illiterate and in their perception English was the language of their enemy and hence education in that language a taboo. They hated even their mother tongue, Malayalam, which they viewed the language of upper-caste Brahmin landlords who treated Moplah Muslims and other lower-caste communities as slaves solely to work in their paddy fields, rear cattle, and do all other manual work on a pittance. Further during the Moplah rebellion, these landlords helped the British to suppress the uprising against them. On this grudge, Moplahs were reluctant to send their children to schools. Instead, the children were admitted to madrasahs run by obscurantist mullahs. A few of them could read and write Malayalam, that also exclusively written in Arabic script only. The Muslim periodicals, had very few readers, since they were printed in the script of Arabic-Malayalam.

    It was during this time that some educated Muslim youths, who had been influenced by the views of Wahabi Movement, came forward to persuade these obscurantist parents to send their children to schools and get them educated. Gradually, the Muslim community in Malabar, who had been immersed in steep poverty, illiteracy, ignorance, and superstitions, could grasp the value of education and the importance of their mother tongue, Malayalam and also the official language, English. Education gave them a new status. The children of the bigot parents were clever, mature and vigilant in fortifying the dignity of their community and the country. Often they proved as real patriots, while comparing them with the upper-caste Brahmin landlords who had been supporting the British rulers as their protectors.

  201. Raj – I must commend your objectivity and the way the buck stops @ SIMI, ISLAM, Muslims etc everytime we talk about secularism etc. in all your arguments. Do you have anything negative to say about the greatest secularist from Gujrat called Narendra Modi.

  202. Sanjay – no, I have nothing negative to say about Modi. Indeed most people back home in Gujarat, which is where I hail from, have nothing negative to say about Modi.

    They do have a lot of negative stuff to say about Modi’s critics though.

  203. Sanjay has asked us to ‘compare’ histories of secular countries for true equivalence !! So which countries should we compare?

    US? which in WW-2 put all it’s japanese citizens under barbed wire camps on the SUSPICION that they might be collaborating with the enemy !!

    UK? which invented the concept of ‘concentration camps’ during the boer war.

    France?, Australia?

    The fact is this – each and every secular developed country in the world has a very clear notion about what it expects from all citizens – muslims included.

    We have venal politicians and community with a large chip on it’s shoulders – hence the problem.

    I mean if any US-muslim had raised the issue that they cannot sing “Hail to the chief”, because they believe that – there is but one chief and mohammed his prophet !! his ass would have been hauled into guantanamo bay !!

    In india of course we celebrate not singing the national song as a victory for secularism.

  204. Sanjay,

    It is you who started with unproven assertion that Secularism in India is flawed because of “Hindu flavour”.

    Not only your assertion is not supported by constitution of Indian republic. It also flies in the face of historical evidences.

    Also I find your faux rage at “tarring of father of nation” amusing considering you have no compunction in tarring 800 million Hindus.

    Please stop trying to play victim.

    PS If you had little knowledge of scriptures you would have realized it is the action and not birth which decides the station in life.

  205. Sanjay – I am always honest. I always tell it like it is. But please dont insult me by calling me ‘secular’. Because secularism in the Indian context means being sympathetic to Islamic fundamentalism and separatism nd hateful towards hinduism. Which is not possible for me. But you my friend, I have no doubt at all, are truly secular. As secular as Arjun Singh and Mulayam Singh, Lalu Prasad and Arundhati Roy.

  206. @Sanjay:

    You do seem to hold the ‘great leaders’ who drafted our constitution as visionary secularists…
    You must then read up on the father of our constitution, Ambedkar… and his opinion on our father of the nation is quite well known. He was soooo secular that he wanted a third country for the ‘untouchables’ and then he drafted the ‘most secular constitution in the world’

  207. Hold on everyone!!!!!!!!

    I want to asj Sanjay a question and you are not letting me… or rather allowing Sanjay to escape without answering it…:)

    Sanjay said…

    ‘’If India were a muslim majority country we probably would have ended up being theocratic states like Bangladesh and Pakistan where non-muslims would be treated as second class citizen both by the state and by the majority. I dont really know the exact reasons but knowing the way things go in muslim majority(or Islamic ) countries it seems the most likely situation.’’

    That is what you said. So as a non-Muslim, whether I am Hindu or atheist is immaterial, the clinching point is that I am a Non-Muslim. Should not I be afraid of living in a Muslim majority state?

    Kindly note, you said, non-Muslims would be treated as second class citizens both by the state and the majority. Interalia, you recognise that a Muslim majority state will not be a secular state and will not give its non-Mislim citizens equal rights.

    Why? If its not the problem with religion, fine, then what is the problem?

    To make it easier for you, assume that state has no Hindus, only muslims and a minority of say Chritians.

  208. Gaurav,

    Please dont put words into my mouth. Show me where I am tarring 800 million Hindus. But that’s the least I expect from one-eyed Hindu Hawks. Let it all come out.

    And yes I continue to believe that India’s secularism (the way it is being practiced in last 25-30 years) has a major Hindu tilt to it. At no point did I suggest that our constitution endorses it. Bal Thackeray is called ‘Hindu Hriday Samrat’ for his radical anti-muslim views and a Shabuddin is called enemy of the state for believing in his faith.

    Oh and thank you for the telling my about the religious scriptures and the fact it is ‘Karma’ not ‘Janma’ that decides the stations in Life, I am sure that’s how it is followed in Hinduism now a days.

  209. Rahul Says “You do seem to hold the ‘great leaders’ who drafted our constitution as visionary secularists…
    You must then read up on the father of our constitution, Ambedkar… and his opinion on our father of the nation is quite well known. He was soooo secular that he wanted a third country for the ‘untouchables’ and then he drafted the ‘most secular constitution in the world’ ”

    Rahul, India’s constitution was drafted one Single person, There was a constituent Assembly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituent_Assembly_of_India#Members_of_the_Indian_Constituent_Assembly) which worked towards creating a constitution. BabaSaheb was the Chairman of the Drafting committee which was responsible for writting the Constitution.

    And yes I do think Ambedkar (along with majority of our leaders) was a great secularist.You saying that Ambedkar demanded a seperate country for ‘untouchables’ is simply untrue, he asked for ‘seperate electorates’. Btw – You seem to have more problem with Ambedkar drafting a secular constitution than with untouchability.

  210. Sanjay : “Shabuddin is called enemy of the state for believing in his faith.”

    Indeed. And deservedly so. The Prophet would be truly disappointed if he wasn’t. Because a true muslim is required by his religion to be an enemy of a state like India. Because India is ‘Dar-ul-Harb’ – a nation of the kufr or the infidel. A true muslim endeavors to convert ‘Dar-ul-Harb’ to ‘Dar-Ul-Islam’ , or a nation of Islam So the kufr are to be given the choice of submitting to Allah and Islam, or be put to death.

    Thus Dar-Ul-Harb (aka India) is a place of perpetual Jihad , until it becomes Dar-Ul-Islam (Greater Pakistan, maybe.)

    A muslim who is not anti-India, is not a true muslim.

  211. Some verses from the Holy Quran.

    VIII/12: When thy Lord inspired the angels (saying:) I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.

    Here one can clearly see that the Quran is openly saying to the muslims to give a torturous death to those who are non-believers of the Islamic faith.

    XCVIII/6: Lo! those who disbelieve, among the people of the Scripture and idolaters, will abide in fire of hell. They are the worst of created beings.

    From the above passage you can clearly see that according to Mohammed, Allah has reserved a special place for non- mulsims–HELL!

    IX/5: Then when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor- due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    This verse tells us that muslims are free to convert non-muslims by force and brutality. If unsuccessful in doing so, they are free to kill.

    IX/73: Oh Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey’s end.

    LXIX/30-37: (It will be said)Take him and fetter him and expose him to hell fire. And then insert him in a chain whereof the length is seventy cubits. Lo! he used not to believe in Allah the tremendous, and urged not on the feeding of the wretched. Therefore hath he no lover hear this day nor any food save filth which none but sinners eat.

    Here we get a description of how to punish Non Muslims. This is in practice even today in Islamic countries. In fact, the Sikh Gurus and their families were tortured by muslims as prescribed in the Quran. For example, Sikh guru Tegh Bahadur on refusing to accept Islam, was brought to the prison in a cage like he was a wild animal. Three of his disciples were murdered in front of him. One of them was Bhai Mati Das. He was sawed alive. The other was wrapped up in cotton and burnt alive. Bhai Dyala, the third one, was boiled alive. Guru Tegh Bahadur himself was brutally tortured and killed in a similar fashion. We see further support of these types of torments in the verses below.

    XLIV/43-50: LO! the tree of Zaqqum (The tree that grows in the heart of hell bearing fruits like devil’s heads) – the food of the sinner. Like molten brass, it seetheth in their bellies as the seething of boiling water. (And it will be said): Take him and drag him to the midst of hell, then pour upon his head the torment of boiling water. Saying: TASTE! LO! thou wast forsooth the mighty, the noble! Lo! this is that whereof ye used to doubt.

    IX/123: O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you and let them find harshness in you and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

    IV/144: O Ye who believe! choose not disbelievers for your friends in place of believers. Would you give Allah a clear warrant against you ?

    This verse clarifies the fact that a true Muslim can never be a friend of a person of another faith. People who believe otherwise are under delusion.

    IX/29: Fight those who do not profess the true faith (Islam) till they pay the jiziya (poll tax) with the hand of humility.

    This verse in Quran gave birth to the law that all non muslims living in an Islamic state have to pay the jiziya or poll tax for the privilege of being there. These people are called zimmis

  212. Arnie Says :- “The fact is this – each and every secular developed country in the world has a very clear notion about what it expects from all citizens – muslims included.”

    Correct. And it is also correct that Muslims live by those rules peacefully (whether by choice or by compulsion). So, if in a secular democracy (like ours) is to follow those devloped nations, it is more than likely that Muslims will live by those rules. The problem lies in the system that extends such relaxations to the muslim community, isn’t it ?

    Oh and so much for you not making sweeping statements about Muslims, just now you accused them of having a chip on their shoulders.

  213. Sanjay,

    Umm who calls Bala Saheb Thackeray Hindu Hriday Samrat or whatever, not me that is for sure or for that matter Indian state.Ofcourse you somehow miss the critiques of Bala Saheb Thackeray.

    By the way if the demogogues are your criteria then name me a country (or to be more precise western liberal country)where you don’t find characters like Bala Saheb.
    I dare you, I double dare you.

    As for denouncing Indian secularism (not that I have very high opinion of that) by saying it has a Hindu flavour smacks of “Hindu rate of growth” meme.Some will call it tarring.

    But perhaps you will prefer a wahabi flavour of secularism.
    Let me check with GSP (Grand Secular Party) about the available flavours.

    As for quoting the scriptures the only purpose was to puncture your “see I am a Brahmin, therefore even if I piss on Hindus with pedestrian rhetoric it has to be tolerated”.

    But yes in a way there is a symmetry, you just like casteist of yesteryears use your caste to prove points.

  214. Gourav Says “But yes in a way there is a symmetry, you just like casteist of yesteryears use your caste to prove points.”

    As I said, You are clutching straws now and getting personal to win an argument which you cant otherwise.

    Secondly You dont know me, so please dont make judgements about who I am or what group I belong to. You also seem to have a reading problem, because that statement was T-I-C and this is probably the 3rd time I am sayng it..not that it would make any difference, you will come up with again you said you are blah blah blah.

    As for your attempts to puncture my statements which I never made (and were merely your exaggerated assumptions)well what can I say – I am not really surprised at how you and your radical ilk twist, tamper with people’s views based on your own assumptions.

  215. Gourav Says “Umm who calls Bala Saheb Thackeray Hindu Hriday Samrat or whatever, not me that is for sure or for that matter Indian state.Ofcourse you somehow miss the critiques of Bala Saheb Thackeray.

    By the way if the demogogues are your criteria then name me a country (or to be more precise western liberal country)where you don’t find characters like Bala Saheb.
    I dare you, I double dare you. ”

    Ofcourse you have never heard of the term ‘Hindu Hriday Samrat’ for Thackeray, but you sure have heard of Syed Shahabuddin. About who calls Thackeray ‘Hindu Hriday Samrat’ – well How about the Bhago Janta PakRegi(BJP) ?

    And it is so typical of you and your ilk to call thackeray a demagogue. A guy who is indicted by the ShriKrishna Commission, a radical who directs his goons to beat up couples on feb 14 is a mere damagouge, isn’t it ? And a Shahabuddin is a national enemy, right ?

    And now I dare you (infact double dare you) to find a political radical leader in the USA who is indicted by the Govt. commission for inciting mass riots and yet roams freely in the streets of NYC and his goons beat up people from Texas for appearing in Railway exams or for celebrating V day. Please find a political leader who runs a hate compaign in the city of NYC against people from other states.
    Please find a political leader in USA who led a religious chariot that led to the demolition of a mosque/church/temple etc.

  216. Gourav Says “As for denouncing Indian secularism (not that I have very high opinion of that) by saying it has a Hindu flavour smacks of “Hindu rate of growth” meme.Some will call it tarring.”

    Oh !! if you denounce the Indian secularism, it’s okay, but If I do it you call me ‘tarring’. Well I call it hypocrisy galore.

    Care to explain why are people like Sajjan Kumar, Jagdish Tytler, HKL Bhagat Dharmdas Shastri etc have not had a single case registerd against them despite Nanavati commision’s (and various other commissions’) recommendation and/or witnesses clearly identified Bhagat and Sajjan Kumar in the court when Satvant and Kehar Singh got their sentences years ago.

    Why are people like thackeray, Advani, Katiya, Rithambhara, Uma bharti, MM Joshi, Vajpayee, Singhal roamin freely in the country when everyone knows their roles in Babri demolition and multitude of riots that followed afterward.

  217. Confused Says :- “Dude, don’t take it wrongly, but we dont want the rest of the country to become what Bihar did under Laloo yadav, a lawless backward state which chief export was cheap labor. ”

    Actually I am from the state and I know for a fact that Bihar wasn’t better under the likes of Jagannath Mishra (our CM before LPY & Kulfi Devi) and other Congress CMs. Not that I am an LPY supported but IMO it is unfair to blame him for the Bihar is in today. The only reason it is noticed is because the media is much stronger today that it was in 70s and 80s.

  218. Confused Says “I want to asj Sanjay a question and you are not letting me… or rather allowing Sanjay to escape without answering it…:)”

    For some reason I didn’t see these posts earlier. So no question of me escaping.

  219. Confused says : “That is what you said. So as a non-Muslim, whether I am Hindu or atheist is immaterial, the clinching point is that I am a Non-Muslim. Should not I be afraid of living in a Muslim majority state?Kindly note, you said, non-Muslims would be treated as second class citizens both by the state and the majority. Interalia, you recognise that a Muslim majority state will not be a secular state and will not give its non-Mislim citizens equal rights.”

    Yes, that’s what I feel about it and you must note that this is what I feel based on what I see in certain Islamic countries mainly Pakistan & Bangladesh. I am not saying that there is no descrimination in the Middle east, but IMO their descrimination is more like Arab vs. Non-Arabs and even if you are a Muslim, you might still be treated as a second class citizen.

    Confused Says “Why? If its not the problem with religion, fine, then what is the problem?”

    It is the problem of governance and not the religion itself. Take for example IRAN. Iran under Shah was as religiously free as any Western Country but cometh the Ayatollah and everything goes down the drain.

  220. Confused Says “And Turkey dear friend is secular only because of its Army. Thrice since 1960 it has intervened and ‘’fired’’ elected Islamic governments. Thats not much of democracy, is it? ”

    Doesn’t the Army consists of majority of Muslims ? Anyways
    Thank You for illustrating my point so eloquently. 🙂

  221. Confused Says “Dude, if you chose to close your eyes to militant Islam, the fault is yours. If you chose to do that, could you tell me who has caused so much violence in Kashmir, who has caused the ethnic cleansing of Hindus from Kashmir, who is respoinsbile for hundreds of deaths all over the country in the bomb blasts? ”

    I have not closed my eyes on Militant Islam, I will accept any day the existence of it in our own country, at the same time I also accept the existence of militant Hinduism in our country.

    As for “who has caused the Ethnic Cleansing of Hindus from Kashmir” – I say Islamic militants but our goverments must share equal blame for :-

    a. making promises they couldn’t keep
    b. Destablizing kashmir by sabotizing the political process for last 50 years
    c. Making stupid rules like Schedule 370 etc.

    As for who is reponsible for ‘hundreds of deaths in blasts’ well I would still say Islamic militants. But if our government knows the epicenter of all these terrorist activisties is in Karachi, why are we courting Pakistan ? Why cant we say that no talk until you give us the ‘D’ man or ban LeT etc ?

  222. Confused Says :- “Now now, we should called Indira Gandhi a terrorist too? Interesting moral equvialency you strive for! ”

    Did I really call her a terrorist ? My point was/is Indira Gandhi really a martyr ? Does she deserve to be called Rashtra Mata(as some congressis were promoting that title for her) ?. She got what she deserved. She was the one that created Bhinderawale, fueled him to counter the Akalis. When BW got out of control, she supported the Nirankaris against him. Indira Gandhi created militancy in Punjab as simple as that. She is not my martyr neither was JSB a terrorist.

    Confused Says “Let us examine your other arguments, if I may call them so. SIMI is banned on mere suspicion. Hmmmm, says who? The GOI’s own investigative agencies have clearly said that SIMI is involved in terrorist attacks, and that is why it has bee banned”

    Okay, let’s for a moment accept that GOI investigative agencies have said that, but what is stopping them from filing chargesheets against those SIMI activists on the basis of their evidence ? Why the government or its agencies have not been able to build case against a single SIMI activist and their inolvement in the blasts. To me it seems more and more like a Witch Hunt by the GoI investigative agencies to hide their own incompetency.

    SIMI and its members are already under constant watch of the police for close to 2-3 years now and still the police has not had any kind of concrete success against SIMI and its involvement in the blasts. To me only two things seem possible :-

    a. Either SIMI is not involved in those attacks and/or
    b. Our police force (including the intelligence) is ridiculously incompetent.

  223. Hey Sanjay ..I know you wont give up without having the last word, even if the quality of your posts, which were never high to begin with, have deterioted to incoherent illogical nonsense. But please dont underestimate the intelligence of the readers here. Its not like preaching to a gathering in a madrassa.I am not sure the folks here would agree with you that ‘Hindu militancy’ which involves smashing the window panes of shops selling valentine’s day cards or half a dozen pensioners in undergoing physical exercise in some RSS shakha is same as Islamic terrorism – planting RDX, IEDs on trains, public places, going on a shooting spree with AK–47s in crowded temples, planning to atack nuclear and defence installations, all done perfectly in co-ordination with brothers from acrosss the border.

    ‘Hindu extremists’ may be misquided, but they certainly are not anti-national. You never find them wanting to kill Indian soldiers or declaring a war on India. While same cannot be said about Indian muslims.

    Hindu extremists are reactionaries, reacting to acts of Islamic jihad. Muslim terrorists are merely faithful and true muslims, following their religion. A hindu may kill in revenge, but a muslim kills because his religion wants him to.

  224. @ Sanjay:

    Boss your assertions don’t make any sense – what do you mean muslims live by those rules? They live by rules because they have been taught the consequences of not living by those rules. Australia asked any muslim that wanted the Sharia to leave the country!! If we did that in India – you would be screaming – communalism, hindu fanatics etc etc !!

    Regds – in US who are moving about free despite making unpalatable statements (like your favourite bugbear BJP) – Have you heared of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell etc? who called Mohammed the world’s first terrorist? How about the Senator who suggested nuking mecca and medina after 9/11?
    Any charges against them?

    Similarly why is Sajjan Kumar a ‘hindu’ fanatic? Did he murder sikhs because they were anti-hindu ?

    Your problem is that you know little and think that verbal diarreah is a substitute for brains.

    Similarly – it is breathtaking – your attempts to equate a ‘hindu’ gathering for babri demolition, to muslim rioting for Danish cartoons or Iraq. The former happens to be an Indian issue (right or wrong comes later). The other 2 have nothing to do with India. If any muslim feels otherwise – they are free to leave and go to islamic nations with pan-islamic ideologies. You know whose heart bleeds at the treatment of muslims in secular-democracies, but whose own non-muslim citizens are worse than second class citizens.

    And the stupid assertion that Turkey is secular – because the muslim majority army is secular, can come only from a dullard such as you. Don’t you know that for muslim generals – ‘secularism’ is the cat which catches mice. for Turkey – it is the need to join EU. The ordinary citizen is n islamist. Just like another ‘secular democracy’ – Pakistan.

  225. Your assertion that GOI & militant islam are both to blame for ethnic cleansing of hindus is odd !!
    The reasons you give are:

    making political promises they couldn’t keep.
    You obviously have not read the UN resolutions on kashmir – but leaving that aside – the political promises were not kept to the kashmiris. Hindus were kashmiris too – So why did the islamists cleanse them ?

    2. Subverting the political process !! This is rich – political processes have been subverted in many states in India, including that champion of secularist – lallu prasad’s bihar. No hindu went about putting full page advertisements in papers asking muslims to leave (like in kashmir for hindus)

    3. Schedule 370. Presumably you meant Article 370 – which confers special rights to the state of kashmir. Again how does this make the GOI equally culpable as the ‘islamic militants’ (I call them terrorists – though by your exalted standards, there are no terrorists or martyrs. It’s all relative !!) for ethnic cleansing of hindu kashmiris ?

    Regarding SIMI. I thought the govt has given a set of secret documents to the courts regarding SIMI activities. Even if say our intelligence agencies were incompetent. The fact is that set of bombs were set off which killed 200 people. You call it a ‘witch hunt’ of SIMI. So do you believe like Bukhari – the RSS, Shiv Sena has done it? Or do you believe that anybody (hindus, muslims, sikhs, parsis, jews, jehovas witness) in India could have done it – so the police ought to question each and every citizen of india? you know – to avoid a ‘witch hunt’ and be secular !!

    Incidentally – heared of Guantanamo bay? Do you know none of the prisoners there have been indicted? Does that mean they are not terrorists? Infact the US was so far refusing to apply the geneva conventions to these guys until forced by the supreme court.

  226. I just went through some of the early comments that I missed. Here is the one which I suppose started the Sanjay vs the rest p!ssing contest.

    Sanjay : “I accept that SIMI has an agenda to turn India into an Islamic state, but how does it make them a terrorist organisation ?”

    It certainly makes them enemies of India. Whether they are terrorists or not is a matter of semantics. As per the Holy Quran, they are true muslims, doing their religious duty, striving to convert dar-ul-harb to dar-ul-islam, waging jihad for the glory of Islam, destined for heavenly pleasures such as 72 houries and 28 virgin boys in their after life.

    But I do agree with Sanjay that Indian secularism is partial towards hindus. India cannot be a truly secular country until and unless we accept the fundamental religious right of a muslim citizen to wage jihad against our kufr country.

    And with that my friends, I sign off. This thread has served its purpose. Sanjay Brahman – feel free to have the last word. Or the last 1000 words.

  227. Sanjay says – “Neither was Indira Gandhi a martyr nor was JSB a terrorist”

    Let us say IG was not a martyr – but why is JSB not a terrorist? Do you know of bombs being kept in DTC buses or terrorists shooting people randomly in Chittaranjan Park during Durga Puja – or the coutless other incidents against innocent citizens?

    I strongly doubt that you are a ‘hindu brahmin’, not that it matters – but the moral equivalences that you are trying to build are something that I would expect in a SIMI meeting.

    Let us face it – the only problem that is facing the world today as exposed by 9/11, Mumbai, Varanasi, London, Spain, Beslan and Bali bombings, is islamic terrorism. The World at large is alert to this.

    India has the dual problem of sitting next to the epicentre of islamic terrorism and having a set of 5th columnists like you – both ideological and people who are willing to be foot soldiers and undertake terrorist activities in the name of islam.

    The reason for this is not because they were not being taught about Mohd. Bin Tughlaq, or Babri or Gujarat (In fact I wonder what would have happened if hindus had burnt a bogie full of muslims in Pakistan) – it is simply because they believe that somehow killing women and children will bring better outcomes for political islam – the war continues (Dar-ul-Harb)…

    Considering Sanjay has an articulate and wrong opinion about every statements he has made in this long forum, I’m surprised why he has been reticent about the only correct statement he has been forced to make. which is – If India had a muslim majority, she would be a theocratic state with non-muslims as second class citizens. But apparently he does not know the reason for it !! Laughable isn’t it 🙂

    So “Sanjay” please ponder upon this – and then tell us why ‘militant hinduism’ and ‘militant islam’ are not the same. Hopefully you’ll do better than giving us Nehru’s quote about how he thought majority communalism was worse than minority communalism. As we can see, events have proved him wrong. BJP was voted out of power through elections. Islamists continue to bomb and kill innocents in the name of religion. Of course people like you will keep quoting babri and Gujarat to claim that these people got what they deserved. But I guess the patience is wearing thin in India – soon they will vomit you out.

  228. Dhanjanjay “Only thing I can say is that Sanjay has too much time to spare writing gibberish all over some other person’s blog. ”

    And you have too much to spare reading them over other person’s blog.

  229. Arnie Says “Let us say IG was not a martyr – but why is JSB not a terrorist? Do you know of bombs being kept in DTC buses or terrorists shooting people randomly in Chittaranjan Park during Durga Puja – or the coutless other incidents against innocent citizens?”

    And what about the innocent sikh youths that Indian army used to pick from villages of Punjab and encounter them in broad-day-light and next day there would be news in Paper that ‘Khonkhaar Atankvaadi SurKsha Bal se MuthbheR me mara gaya’.

    If JSB was a terrorist, why was Ms. Gandhi courting him until 82/83 ? JSB was dead before the violent militancy started in punjab. You can term the clashes between Nirankari & Bhinderanwale as terrorism.

    If JSB was a terrorist, I have news for you :-

    http://www.indiatraveltimes.com/news/news2005/may05/may2505_news.html
    (And this was done in Amritsar)
    Bhindranwale declared martyrs by Taksal .

    Amritsar: Twenty one years after Operation Bluestar, Jarnail Singh Bhinderanwale, the 14th chief of Damdami Taksal, was today declared a martyr by Damdami Taksal, (Jatha Bhindran) in the presence of Singhs of Taksal, Pritam Kaur and Inderjit Singh wife and son of Jarnail Singh Bhinderanwale, respectively, at Taksal’s headquarters at Gurdwara Gurdarshan Parkash Mehta about 45 kilometres from Amritsar. Baba Harnam Singh declared that Jarnail Singh Bhinderanwale was martyred at 8.45 am on June 6, 1984 while fighting with the Indian army at Akal Takht. Speaking to reporters Baba Harnam Singh said that the Taksal had now cleared all the myths surrounding the status of Bhindranwale.

  230. Arnie says “(In fact I wonder what would have happened if hindus had burnt a bogie full of muslims in Pakistan)”

    Oh my so much of misinformation and justification :-

    Have you read the Banerji report ? Let me guess just like your Sanghi friends you are going to dismiss that as well ?
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4180885.stm

    http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1915/19150110.htm

    “The Forensic Science Laboratory (FSL) report has ruled out the possibility that the compartment was set on fire from outside by a mob.”

    In any case I wont hear you say anything about the ‘Chetavani Yatra’ (to warn muslims) with Karsevaks shouting anti-muslim slogans from one station to another station, harassing muslims women in the train compartment (“….Sophiya Sheikh (18), a resident of Vadodara, was on the platform waiting for the train along with her mother and sister. They saw the Ram sevaks get off the train. One of them grabbed Sophiya from behind, put his hand over her mouth and dragged her towards the train…”)is okay.

  231. Arnie Says “So “Sanjay” please ponder upon this – and then tell us why ‘militant hinduism’ and ‘militant islam’ are not the same…..BJP was voted out of power through elections. Islamists continue to bomb and kill innocents in the name of religion. Of course people like you will keep quoting babri and Gujarat to claim that these people got what they deserved. But I guess the patience is wearing thin in India – soon they will vomit you out”

    Actually IMO any type of militancy is unacceptable, and I have no problem in accepting the fact that militant Islam us a big problem at the same time the rise of Hindu extrmism in India is even a brigger problem in countries like India. Unfortunately some of you link radical hindus as patriots. Yeah BJP is voted out of power, but the radicals in it are still allowed to contest elections whereas they should be banned. And I quote Babri and Gujrat only because people like you worship Modis and Advanis and not to justify any kind of violence.

  232. Arnie says :- “India has the dual problem of sitting next to the epicentre of islamic terrorism and having a set of 5th columnists like you – both ideological and people who are willing to be foot soldiers and undertake terrorist activities in the name of islam.”

    And what about people like you who are so ignorant and so radically biased against muslims ? Yes Pakistan is a the epicenter of Islamic Terrorist, then why did the Nationalist government invited a terrorist dictator who was responsible for killing our soldiers in Kargil. Why did he visit Pakistan and then declared his happiness that “”..the Pakistan leadership has clutched” his “hand of friendship…”

    Bullshit, there should not be any such friendship until the epicenter of Islamic terrorism changes.

  233. Sigh. I thought I was done with this thread, but what does Sanjay do, he comes up with this pearl of wisdom :

    “Have you read the Banerji report ? Let me guess just like your Sanghi friends you are going to dismiss that as well “

    If definition of a sanghi is ‘one who believes Justice Banerjee’s report carries zero credibility’, then one would imagine all non-muslims and non-commies of India, indeed anybody who is not completely an idiot, would qualify as ‘sanghis’. For all we know, Laloo Prasad himself wrote the report, while retired Justice Banerjee was relaxing and enjoying a paid vacation, courtesy the railway ministry.

    Of course, even muslims know that the muslim mob did it, its just that they dont say aloud openly. Spreading disinformation obviously serves their purpose. Its no different from the conspiracy theory in muslim circles that the Jews were responsible for the 9-11 incident. Recently there were headlines in the national urdu newspapers that Mossad carried out the Mumbai bomb blasts…

    Even Sanjay himself, as stupid and hateful as he is, does not really believe in the Justice Banerjee report.

    Otherwise why would he repeat the cock and bull story about the hindus in that train harassing a muslim girl ?

    Sanjay : “In any case I wont hear you say anything about the ‘Chetavani Yatra’ (to warn muslims) with Karsevaks shouting anti-muslim slogans from one station to another station, harassing muslims women in the train compartment (”….Sophiya Sheikh (18), a resident of Vadodara, was on the platform waiting for the train along with her mother and sister. They saw the Ram sevaks get off the train. One of them grabbed Sophiya from behind, put his hand over her mouth and dragged her towards the train…”)is okay “

    This theory was wide spread just after the Godhra incident and used by the secular people of our country to justify the killing of the 60 hindus, most of who were women and children. Mind you, this was before Shri Lalu Prasad Yadav instituted the Justice Banerjee fact finding report. So the seculars indeed gave this ‘justification’ and ‘explanation’ knowing fully well that the muslims mob did it.

    Justice Banerjee report came much later, and was indeed a pleasant surprise for our secularists, including I am sure, those who were actually involved in the murder of the hindus. But why do away with the original ‘justification’ ?

    So the insinuation is the hindu passengers gave the muslim mob enough provocation and indeed deserved to be burnt alive. And yet mind you – the muslims did not burn them alive, the fire was accidental. Why ? Because Justice Banerjee says so.

    You cant have it both ways. Either you say Justice Banerjee report is true, all the victims died of an accidental fire, which co-incidently happened at the same time as a 2000 odd muslim mob surrounded the coach, or you say its false.

    You cannot say the hindu passengers misbehaved with a muslim girl, gave the good muslims enough provocation to burn them alive, and yet died of an accidental fire. Too much co-incidence for me.

    What was that phrase agains about having a cake and eating it too… thats what Sanjay and Co. are trying to do.

    Not only do they insist that the hindus died of an accidental fire, and the muslims had no part to play in their death, they shamelessly insist on justifying their death, giving reasons why we should not feel too sorry for them because they deserved to die anyway, because :

    a. they were Hindu Militants
    b. they misbehaved with muslims
    c. they tried to rape a muslim girl.

    I dont know who these rascals are trying to fool. We often caricature pseudo-secularists. But this dude Sanjay is special because he is easily the vilest and the dumbest specimen of his kind I have so far encountered atleast in an internet forum.

  234. A travesty of truth and justice

    V SUNDARAM (News Today)

    Justice U C Banerjee has given his report in which he has given his pre-chosen finding that Godhra Train Fire was just accidental and that 59 deaths were caused by toxicity and suffocation, definitely not by Muslim Terrorists. Justice Banerjee was specially chosen by that tainted Minister Lalu Prasad Yadav in September 2004 on the eve of State elections in Bihar. He was specially instructed, of course very casually and informally, by the UPA Government under the de jure Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh and de facto Prime Minister Sonia Gandhi to give a report of their political choice. Lalu had politically planned to use the fact of appointment of Justice Banerjee Commission to win over the hearts of Muslims in the Bihar elections. Unfortunately, the people of Bihar gave a different, though divided, verdict which enabled Buta Singh, another toady of Sonia Gandhi, to illegally dissolve the duly elected Bihar Assembly which was later struck down by the Supreme Court as illegal and unconstitutional. When Justice Banerjee was appointed in September 2004, I had written in these columns as follows:

    ‘What we urgently need in India today is a rebirth of satire, of dissent, of irreverence, of an uncompromising insistence that phoniness is phony and platitudes are platitudinous. Amongst all Indian politicians the esteem of religion is profitable; the principles of it are troublesome �� both ‘secular’ and ‘saffron’ included. India today is a land of impunity � Legislative Impunity, Judicial Impunity, and Executive Impunity. The Congress Party holds the National Patent for the revolutionary method and technology of unabashed impunity. I am not joking. I am amused by the solemnity displayed by the UPA government in its concern to order a CBI probe into the allegations regarding the targeting of minorities in Gujarat during the communal riots aided and abetted by the political leadership. Stripped of ethical rationalisations and philosophical pretensions, a crime is anything that a group in power chooses to prohibit or promote. Lalu Prasad Yadav who is in the run for Bharat Ratna(!) in the next year’s Republic Day Honours for his outstanding services to the nation has brought his spectacularly ‘secular’ pressure upon the UPA government to use the sledge hammer of the Justice Banerjee Commission against Narendra Modi, popularly elected Chief Minister of Gujarat. Lalu hopes that regardless of what happens to Justice Banerjee’s probe, he would at least retrieve his lost support base among the Muslims in Bihar in the State elections to be held shortly. Justice Nanavati-Shah Commission, already appointed by the Government of Gujarat, has not completed its enquiry.’

    ‘Against this background, the proposal of the UPA government to order a parallel enquiry by Justice Banerjee to go into the communal riots in Gujarat only shows how politics in India is ‘an arse upon which every one has sat excepting a Man’. The rate at which the UPA government is ordering probes clearly shows that a separate Ministry may have to be created by Dr Manmohan Singh to deal with the increasing number of politically motivated, politically guided and politically directed Commissions of Enquiry being ordered every day in keeping with the letter and spirit of Non-Saffron Coalition Adharma’.

    Justice Banerjee had given his interim finding as desired by Lalu and Sonia within three months of his appointment stating that the Godhra incident was not created by any Muslim terrorist but was purely an accident. After giving this interim finding, he has no other option excepting to confirm this in his final report. Perhaps he created the means in his interim report to reach this planned end in his final report.

    His findings are: ‘From the evidence that I have on record, it is quite impossible that sixty litres of inflammable material could have been thrown into a coach full of kar sevaks with Trishuls who did not react at all. I not only have witnesses and material evidence but also I have tested the theory myself. I tried to throw water inside a coach from the windows. Only ten per cent goes in. The sequence of events, if the fire was caused by an inflammable liquid as per experts’ opinion, is… first there would be fire, then smoke and then there would be burning smell all over. I reject the theory that the canvas in the vestibule between coaches S-6 and S-7 was cut open and 60 litres of petrol was thrown inside’.

    As enlightened and concerned citizens let us for a moment forget the political prospects of Lalu, Sonia and the like on the one hand and the future career prospects of Justice Banerjee and others of his ilk on the other. 59 innocent people, 30 of them being women and children, were savagely murdered in the most horrific manner, only because they were Hindus. They killed nobody, whatever be the rightfulness or wrongfulness of their cause. They burnt nobody. They insulted nobody. And yet the whole gristly episode was turned against them by the Congress Party and the other pseudo-secular political parties. The pseudo-secular mass media at that time, instead of viewing these 59 victims of the most horrendous pre-meditated murder with traumatic concern and compassion, made them responsible for their own deaths. Why? Because they were ‘fanatics’ who wanted to build a temple dedicated to the most cherished of Hindu Gods, Ram, on a site which had been held sacred by Hindus for more than 5000 years.

    The lone survivor of the Sabarmati Express train fire at Godhra in which 59 kar sevaks were killed on 27 February, 2002, Gayatri Panchal, a resident of Ahmedabad, has decried the U.C. Banerjee Commission report. Though she survived, she lost both her parents on that day. She has decried the U C Banerjee Commission report and has said:

    ‘I will stick to the version that the coach was attacked by an armed crowd. The report of the Banerjee Commission is absolutely wrong. I have seen everything with my own eyes and barely escaped myself but lost both my parents. Mobs pelted stones at the coach for long and then threw in burning rags and also poured some inflammable material so that the coach was on fire. I will maintain the same wherever I am called to depose on the matter.’

    The tragedy and the comedy of the whole matter is that Justice Banerjee has not chosen to examine this lone survivor of the ghastly accident and this fact by itself will invalidate his whole commission report as one-sided, biased, prejudiced, illegal and unconstitutional. All human rights have been violated by his pointed failure to examine this lone survivor. Amnesty International should take note of the casual and contemptuous attitude of this careerist judge who has completely ignored the lone survivor and come to the conclusion that the whole incident was accidental and not an act of a terrorist.

    Arvind Pandya, a Gujarat government advocate, handling the Sabarmati train carnage inquiry at Nanavati Commission, has rightly termed Justice U C Banerjee report as ‘oblique’ and ‘predecided’. He has observed: ‘If the report says that the fire in the S-6 coach of the Sabarmati Express train was accidental, then why does it not explain the presence of an armed and rioting mob next to the train?’ Pandya has also questioned Banerjee Commission’s reasons for not taking into consideration the detailed report of the forensic laboratory of Gujarat that had pointed out that at least 60 litres of inflammable liquid had to be poured into the coach for it to catch fire in the manner that the S-6 of Sabarmati coach had caught fire on 27 February, 2002.

    Justice Nanavati and Justice Shah appointed by the Government of Gujarat have examined thousands of witnesses and several thousands are still waiting to give evidence. One Bhatia has filed a Public Interest case in the Gujarat High Court on the Constitutional validity of the appointment of the Banerjee Commission and this case is still pending. The Gujarat High Court has requested that the implementation of the Banerjee Commission report should be kept in abeyance till final orders are passed in the case before it. When such is the case, Justice Banerjee has been able to give an interim finding based on non-saffron UPA coalition politics within a period of 90 days and to later confirm his own finding with a final magisterial verdict that the whole thing is a cock and bull story. To say the least, his report is snappy, short, biased, prejudiced and one-sided. In these days of instant coffee and instant ‘rasam’, he has given an instant report in the manner and measure called for. Having given his report as directed by the UPA Government in New Delhi, can we not imagine that he now awaits his further career prospects by way of appointment as Governor, India’s High Commissioner or Ambassador, or conferment of decorations ranging from Padma Shri to Bharat Ratna, depending upon his luck, pluck and influence. With men like Buta Singh and Natwar Singh out of his way, his prospects do seem to be very bright.

    To put India in order, we must first put the government in order; to put the government in order, we must first put the UPA family in order; to put the UPA family in order, we must first make the UPA lead their political lives properly for which they must first set their hearts right. I derive my inspiration, moral courage and moral authority from the beautiful words of George Orwell: ‘In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act’.

    Stern, grim and scorching truth possesses within herself a penetrating force unknown alike to

  235. Sanjay, I read all that u have posted here and i still cant understand ur point…

    Are u saying that -Hindu militancy is a bigger problem that inlamic militancy??
    – the government of responsible for any of the islamic militancy that is happening and not the muslims???
    – that India’s secularism is a sham which victimises muslims into reacting with force against the country????
    or ?????

    what exactly is ur point in all this??

    can u just help me out here and clarify this???

  236. Rahul, I will try to answer them as well as I can.

    “Hindu militancy is a bigger problem that inlamic militancy?? ”

    Militancy is a problem, period. Have uniform views on all. If you are going ban SIMI, fine then please BAN Bajrang Dals and Shivsenas etc also. You cant categorize and say one is a good militant and the other is a bad one. The fact is they feed each other.

    “the government of responsible for any of the islamic militancy that is happening and not the muslims??? ”

    Partly yes, for closing its eyes on the growth of Hindu militancy, for using the minorities as vote banks, for having diplomatic relationships with terrorist countries and many such reasons.

    “that India’s secularism is a sham which victimises muslims into reacting with force against the country ??”

    The current form of Secularism is a Sham and it not only victimises Muslims but other minorities as well.

    “what exactly is ur point in all this??”

    The point is that :-

    a. Dont abuse an entire community for some rotten eggs.
    b. Dont decalre Bajrangis and Shivsainiks as patriots for their militant activities at the same time call SIMI an enemy of India on mere suspiscion, let the govt prove it first, let them build a case against them.
    c. Shahabuddin and his ilk aren’t national enemies for being muslims and neither are Advanis, Modis, Sanghis, Bajrangis etc are our patriots
    d.
    e.
    f.
    g.
    .
    .
    .
    Z. The point is stop this hypocritic nonsense of calling every radical muslims act as terrorism and at the same justify all the radical Hindu act as some sort of nationalism.

  237. Sanjay,

    Cna you please learn to reply in one comment instead of 20 which makes it so hard to understand anything?

    First dude, when I talk about Turkey, i say it’s Army keeps it secular by firing democratically elected governments. You think that is an endorsement of your position. You think it is perfectly ok for Army to fire governments!!!!!

    Ok lets do it this way. There are 1 billion Muslims in this world and 53 nations which are part of OIC-orgnization of Islamic countries. One of which is secular…which is kept secular by an Army of around 250,000. So my argument which you find so funny proves that .0025% of the Muslim population is secular. This you take it as endorsement. Forgive me if I find it funny like hell…

    Your other position seems to be that everyone is to blame for rise of Islamic right except Islam itself. Funny, i mean seriously dude, Saudi Arabia does not allow non-believers to worship on its holy land, what the fuck makes it unsecular? Hindus, christians? Shiv Sena?

    Dude, get out of your dope induced hysteria, and look at reality and stop this game of moral equivalency and stop comparing Shiv Sena which is more or less a bunch of goons to SIMI which is a bunch of terrorists. There is a bug fugging difference between the two.

    Anyway, I don’t think you are ever going to get it, well the rest of the world does and its doing everything in its power to crush militant Islam and believe me it will. You can rave, rant and dope as much as you want to.

    I am done with you. Thanks for t debate.

  238. So if damdami taksal and Simranjit Singh Mann claim JSB is a martyr, JSB becomes one ??? What the punjab police did – is a version of scorched earth policy or as we say it in lebanon – “collateral damage”. However, you seemed pretty happy with accusing just the Hezbollah of terrorism despite being a “muslim lover”.
    So why does the action of Punjab police mean that Brindanwale is not a terrorist? please explain.

    Presumably your lack of knowledge about kashmir has stopped you from carrying out an equivalence between terrorists and victims.

    After this entire discussion of why SIMI is different from Bajrang dal – you are back to the same point !! The reason why the nationalist government invited mushy to India was the same reason why Mulayam Singh Yadav gives a clean chit to SIMI – politics. But it does not change the facts.

    You might consider the bombing and murder of 200 indians to be a “radical” act of muslims – we call it terrorism. And please don’t bring in your favourite ‘Babri Masjid” bullshit again. When the Taliban in Afghanistan destroyed the Bamiyan Buddhhas (a far more important historical structure). We did not have thousands of buddhists running around attacking muslims. When the Babri Masjid was broken – the muslim community should have gone to a court of law, instead of being led astray by a moronic set of islamic leaders and taking the law in their own hands. So just like you said for Indira Gandhi – I think they got what they deserved 🙂

    Meanwhile we wait for them to grow a brain and a spine.

    We also begin to understand why you are a history graduate of burdwan university.

  239. Wish to buy any new products or sell any items? If yes, this is the
    website that caters for all your needs. Just visit us and you will see
    that we are coming up with new innovative ideas. You can be rest assured
    on this platform. Buying and selling was never been such easy. Visitwww.oj-adsource.com

  240. @ saugata mukherjee : xxxx xxxx

    Hmmm. Are you trying to revive a comment string that proved exciting in the past? People won’t succumb to the bait.

    My one and peremptory comment on this string is :

    (a) it’s easy to be naive and blame everything on Muslims

    (b) it’s far more challenging (& admirable) to accept their shortcomings and yet try to integrate them into the framework … this is Gandhism.

    (c) The most difficult task is having a humane heart (as in b), yet in spite of that, being unable to deny brutal facts about terrorism, and having to point the finger squarely at it’s undeniable source. Poilitical correctness & resultant predictable oppobrium be damned.

    There is a vast gulf between (a) & (c), which the seculars in (b) are not appreciating.

  241. Pingback: Buy ultram.

Have An Opinion? Type Away

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s